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院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 759.127, \"end\": 759.348, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 759.348, \"end\": 759.548, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 759.548, \"end\": 760.329, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 760.329, \"end\": 760.51, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"農\"}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 760.51, \"end\": 760.71, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"融\", \"start\": 760.71, \"end\": 761.231, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 761.231, \"end\": 761.671, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 761.671, \"end\": 761.992, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 761.992, \"end\": 762.412, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 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934.394, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 934.394, \"end\": 935.255, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 935.255, \"end\": 935.355, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 935.355, \"end\": 935.595, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 935.595, \"end\": 935.735, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 935.735, \"end\": 935.755, \"score\": 0.09}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 945.8, \"end\": 945.82, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:17,165 --> 00:00:18,112\n請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n\n2\n00:00:30,875 --> 00:00:59,385\n館長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平竹崎大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助\n\n3\n00:01:00,425 --> 00:01:23,155\n院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租\n\n4\n00:01:24,275 --> 00:01:45,918\n可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯\n\n5\n00:01:47,000 --> 00:02:05,375\n再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入\n\n6\n00:02:08,939 --> 00:02:35,357\n報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通\n\n7\n00:02:35,717 --> 00:02:52,114\n好謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元\n\n8\n00:02:52,995 --> 00:03:16,410\n不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領\n\n9\n00:03:17,651 --> 00:03:40,059\n所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法\n\n10\n00:03:41,315 --> 00:03:50,440\n跟委員報告一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定\n\n11\n00:03:52,196 --> 00:04:22,039\n好現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情\n\n12\n00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:44,897\n這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助\n\n13\n00:04:46,919 --> 00:04:53,231\n謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯\n\n14\n00:04:56,630 --> 00:05:18,032\n開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講\n\n15\n00:05:18,993 --> 00:05:42,819\n他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的\n\n16\n00:05:43,579 --> 00:05:54,839\n那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢\n\n17\n00:05:55,846 --> 00:06:16,325\n這樣子放手做事為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情\n\n18\n00:06:17,046 --> 00:06:44,286\n所以院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條\n\n19\n00:06:46,358 --> 00:07:14,539\n有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長\n\n20\n00:07:17,219 --> 00:07:37,572\n都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事能做事\n\n21\n00:07:38,254 --> 00:07:58,788\n好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會\n\n22\n00:08:00,510 --> 00:08:28,540\n來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的\n\n23\n00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:53,652\n盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋\n\n24\n00:08:54,537 --> 00:09:19,984\n那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座\n\n25\n00:09:22,044 --> 00:09:44,582\n占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色\n\n26\n00:09:45,282 --> 00:09:53,410\n或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任\n\n27\n00:09:54,833 --> 00:10:22,051\n是跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量\n\n28\n00:10:23,451 --> 00:10:38,177\n委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。\n\n29\n00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:55,490\n另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。\n\n30\n00:10:57,488 --> 00:11:14,501\n可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資\n\n31\n00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:30,883\n是的就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了\n\n32\n00:11:31,423 --> 00:11:53,838\n未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任\n\n33\n00:11:55,539 --> 00:12:14,385\n也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區\n\n34\n00:12:15,405 --> 00:12:37,866\n如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任\n\n35\n00:12:39,127 --> 00:12:50,685\n謝謝院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部\n\n36\n00:12:54,470 --> 00:13:23,069\n如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市\n\n37\n00:13:23,689 --> 00:13:27,756\n他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那\n\n38\n00:13:29,005 --> 00:13:54,602\n如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便\n\n39\n00:13:55,262 --> 00:14:04,669\n因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分\n\n40\n00:14:05,976 --> 00:14:34,009\n我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決\n\n41\n00:14:35,657 --> 00:14:38,194\n再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性\n\n42\n00:14:39,518 --> 00:15:06,640\n其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意\n\n43\n00:15:07,361 --> 00:15:35,755\n可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在\n\n44\n00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:45,820\n好\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17165\t18112\t請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n30875\t59385\t館長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平 竹崎 大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助\n60425\t83155\t院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租\n84275\t105918\t可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯\n107000\t125375\t再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入\n128939\t155357\t報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通\n155717\t172114\t好 謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元\n172995\t196410\t不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領\n197651\t220059\t所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法\n221315\t230440\t跟委員報告 一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管 有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定\n232196\t262039\t好 現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情\n263990\t284897\t這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助\n286919\t293231\t謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯\n296630\t318032\t開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講\n318993\t342819\t他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的\n343579\t354839\t那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢\n355846\t376325\t這樣子放手做事 為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有 有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情\n377046\t404286\t所以 院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條\n406358\t434539\t有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長\n437219\t457572\t都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣 嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長 我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法 請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事 能做事\n458254\t478788\t好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會\n480510\t508540\t來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對 要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的\n509600\t533652\t盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋\n534537\t559984\t那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座\n562044\t584582\t占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色\n585282\t593410\t或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任\n594833\t622051\t是 跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量\n623451\t638177\t委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。\n643639\t655490\t另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。\n657488\t674501\t可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資\n676160\t690883\t是的 就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了\n691423\t713838\t未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任\n715539\t734385\t也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區\n735405\t757866\t如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任\n759127\t770685\t謝謝 院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部\n774470\t803069\t如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市\n803689\t807756\t他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那\n809005\t834602\t如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便\n835262\t844669\t因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分\n845976\t874009\t我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決\n875657\t878194\t再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性\n879518\t906640\t其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意\n907361\t935755\t可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在\n945800\t945820\t好\n","txt":"請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n館長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平 竹崎 大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助\n院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租\n可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯\n再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入\n報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通\n好 謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元\n不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領\n所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法\n跟委員報告 一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管 有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定\n好 現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情\n這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助\n謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯\n開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講\n他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的\n那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢\n這樣子放手做事 為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有 有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情\n所以 院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條\n有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長\n都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣 嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長 我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法 請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事 能做事\n好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會\n來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對 要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的\n盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋\n那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座\n占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色\n或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任\n是 跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量\n委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。\n另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。\n可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資\n是的 就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了\n未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任\n也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區\n如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任\n謝謝 院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部\n如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市\n他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那\n如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便\n因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分\n我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決\n再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性\n其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意\n可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在\n好\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.165 --> 00:18.112\n請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢\n\n00:30.875 --> 00:59.385\n館長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平竹崎大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助\n\n01:00.425 --> 01:23.155\n院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租\n\n01:24.275 --> 01:45.918\n可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯\n\n01:47.000 --> 02:05.375\n再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入\n\n02:08.939 --> 02:35.357\n報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通\n\n02:35.717 --> 02:52.114\n好謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元\n\n02:52.995 --> 03:16.410\n不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領\n\n03:17.651 --> 03:40.059\n所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法\n\n03:41.315 --> 03:50.440\n跟委員報告一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定\n\n03:52.196 --> 04:22.039\n好現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情\n\n04:23.990 --> 04:44.897\n這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助\n\n04:46.919 --> 04:53.231\n謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯\n\n04:56.630 --> 05:18.032\n開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講\n\n05:18.993 --> 05:42.819\n他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的\n\n05:43.579 --> 05:54.839\n那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢\n\n05:55.846 --> 06:16.325\n這樣子放手做事為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情\n\n06:17.046 --> 06:44.286\n所以院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條\n\n06:46.358 --> 07:14.539\n有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長\n\n07:17.219 --> 07:37.572\n都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事能做事\n\n07:38.254 --> 07:58.788\n好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會\n\n08:00.510 --> 08:28.540\n來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的\n\n08:29.600 --> 08:53.652\n盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋\n\n08:54.537 --> 09:19.984\n那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座\n\n09:22.044 --> 09:44.582\n占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色\n\n09:45.282 --> 09:53.410\n或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任\n\n09:54.833 --> 10:22.051\n是跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量\n\n10:23.451 --> 10:38.177\n委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。\n\n10:43.639 --> 10:55.490\n另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。\n\n10:57.488 --> 11:14.501\n可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資\n\n11:16.160 --> 11:30.883\n是的就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了\n\n11:31.423 --> 11:53.838\n未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任\n\n11:55.539 --> 12:14.385\n也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區\n\n12:15.405 --> 12:37.866\n如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任\n\n12:39.127 --> 12:50.685\n謝謝院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部\n\n12:54.470 --> 13:23.069\n如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市\n\n13:23.689 --> 13:27.756\n他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那\n\n13:29.005 --> 13:54.602\n如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便\n\n13:55.262 --> 14:04.669\n因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分\n\n14:05.976 --> 14:34.009\n我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決\n\n14:35.657 --> 14:38.194\n再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性\n\n14:39.518 --> 15:06.640\n其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意\n\n15:07.361 --> 15:35.755\n可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在\n\n15:45.800 --> 15:45.820\n好\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.165,"end":18.112,"text":"請院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30.875,"end":59.385,"text":"館長好上次我們主要是針對農業那這是我們針對災後的觀光產業的這個復興的一些方案來跟院長做討論那主要是針對我們嘉義縣特別是山區也是受到風災這個影響很重要的很重的這些地方包含我們太平 竹崎 大埔等等這一些的產業的合作社也好或者是這個發展協會或者是各商圈他們急需要的幫助"},{"start":60.425,"end":83.155,"text":"院長現在在太平雲梯也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區那他每年大概要支付六百萬租金給這個阿里山的管理處然後再加上三千萬的行政的營運的成本成本就是三千六百萬左右那類似這樣子的情況還有包含足及的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等這些都是要向阿館處承租"},{"start":84.275,"end":105.918,"text":"可是近年不僅是一年這其實這三年來風災基本上夏季都是非常的嚴重那只要有颱風警報那必須就是以安全為主就要關閉所以說遊客他是大幅減少那這一次的颱風他不僅是颱風當天那還有後續的豪雨等於說七八月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯"},{"start":107,"end":125.375,"text":"再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器柱還有這些帆布設施這些全部都是有我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第4條第9項的文化觀光振興當中是不是可以把這類的重要的觀光設施的紓困來給予納入"},{"start":128.939,"end":155.357,"text":"報告委員針對太平的這個地方這個梯的部分我們這個租金會跟他們來討論看怎麼樣減免他們也可以提出申請業者可以提出申請因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多的天災跟風災的狀況另外就是硬體受損的部分我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者或者是說用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通"},{"start":155.717,"end":172.114,"text":"好 謝謝部長我是希望說比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助讓他們過衝擊現在剛才提到其實不只是交通部經濟部也有推出受災店家的援助方案每戶他是補助一萬元"},{"start":172.995,"end":196.41,"text":"不過是要稅籍的證明稅籍證明的部分其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商他們是一個稅籍下是有多個攤位所以我認為說這個申請條件其實也不是我們是一般的鄉親都不斷的來提出來好像過於嚴苛也就是說很多有在經營的這個攤商他們都有在跟合作社都有往來他不一定有獨立的這個稅籍他可能沒辦法請領"},{"start":197.651,"end":220.059,"text":"所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈協會有往來但不一定有獨立的稅籍我是不是建議是不是准以合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式呈報當然是要切解來去予以輔助符合我們崇寬認定的精神不知道院長或者是部長次長有什麼樣的看法"},{"start":221.315,"end":230.44,"text":"跟委員報告 一些市場攤販的話只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管 有案的話其實我們都可以充寬來認定"},{"start":232.196,"end":262.039,"text":"好 現在就希望就是可以考慮一下我們的建議納納路來考量的去做一個想法那再來就是災害保險因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的那有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造的協助的景觀等等那我們是希望說未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的這個天災保險機制讓政府補助一部分的保費那這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速的恢復運作不知道院長怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":263.99,"end":284.897,"text":"這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做這個保險的部分確實因為每次遇到天災之後我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害不管是營業方面或者是說硬體設備方面如果有保險的話對他們來說當然是相對是比較安全一些比較有保障一些這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助"},{"start":286.919,"end":293.231,"text":"謝謝那院長接下來我要就是要反映地方的公署的一些問題那這可能跟政府採購法第105條有關聯"},{"start":296.63,"end":318.032,"text":"開口合約跟緊急採購制度他們有遇到一些瓶頸我舉個例子就是說風災過後中央的經費其實是很快速的到位但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題還有錢但沒辦法動工怎麼說呢比方說我是山區選出的但是其實山海都是一線很多海區他們最基本的路燈來講"},{"start":318.993,"end":342.819,"text":"他沒有完全恢復為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復因為過去基層的公所他們的限於年度的開口合約也就是說一規定他必須要派工給原得標廠商可是原本只負責零星維修因為從來沒有從嘉義登入過從來沒有從嘉南平原登入過他現在是要面對數百倍數千倍的突發的維修量的時候量能是不足的"},{"start":343.579,"end":354.839,"text":"那行政部門可能會說如同我剛剛講的依照政府採購法第105條有賦予機關用緊急採購的權利但是現在的公所的地方公務員他不敢"},{"start":355.846,"end":376.325,"text":"這樣子放手做事 為什麼第一個是違約風險可能被原廠商控告第二個是圖利疑慮他可能沒有經過招標程序再就是事後究責接下來還要接受政風的單位調查第四就算有 有這個魄力去做迫於公所有限的人力他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件他實在騰不出手來做這些事情"},{"start":377.046,"end":404.286,"text":"所以 院長我的第一個問題是說行政有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候它有天然的就是先天就有這個能量的限制它沒有辦法緊急搶修所以過了兩個月了不是公所不願意而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做那在法律上當然是有這樣子的法律條文那實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣子的做法所以說為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第105條"},{"start":406.358,"end":434.539,"text":"有幾個難題他們公所有反應就是第一個法規沒有明確說明假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候機關要如何合法的把超出的部分直接適用緊急採購這是第一個部分那可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動再來就是災後的公所人力勘災通報都忙不過來他很難在短時間內完成大量新的巡駕還有溢價還有簽約的流程那我今天講這麼多原因是因為我們跟鄉公所不管是鄉長"},{"start":437.219,"end":457.572,"text":"都有類似這樣的問題出現那不只是嘉義縣 嘉義縣是鄉那我想台南市就是區那這樣的問題就確實存在院長 我們是想要請教一下有沒有辦法 請你們研擬一下怎麼樣去介入主導怎麼樣是讓第一線的公務人員能夠敢做事 能做事"},{"start":458.254,"end":478.788,"text":"好委員所說剛剛除了人力的問題我們另外來來討論來設法之外這種緊急的採購開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於的嚴謹或者說應該還有更可以有彈性但是也要在執行上是可行的作者院長我們請工程會"},{"start":480.51,"end":508.54,"text":"來做一個討論但是我們就為什麼不敢因為沒有潛力沒有潛力的話就會有剛才提到這樣的氣候要嘛就是這樣的天災對 要嘛就是後面的陣風但是如果由行政院他提出一個標準的流程依流程規章辦理的話相公所就有機可循就是他就知道說有什麼樣法律如果沒有法律至少有一些規章跟一些辦法那就比較好去從事在有安全集合的機制底下我們在前頭的"},{"start":509.6,"end":533.652,"text":"盡量把它開放出來這個速度我們希望加速恢復他們的家園這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討之前我們有提過相公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量再來可能就是要跟災害就關於電信電信的韌性的相關的政策這個部分要請教院長其實院長其實根據各個新聞報導在我們嘉義布袋"},{"start":534.537,"end":559.984,"text":"那幾個電信業者不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍像是之前一段時間台南的七股它那個地區是沒有訊號的也就是說現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡就是說有些可能工股比較多的他願意去投資儘管在偏遠地區他願意去投資更多的基地台比方說中華電信現在有34796座"},{"start":562.044,"end":584.582,"text":"占全市長的42.4%其他的電信包含像遠傳是2萬多相差是1.2萬座所以說各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大的差別的我現在問題在於說現在的市場機制沒有辦法來去保證說偏遠地方或者是說人口不集中的地方它的通訊任性的時候政府應該要扮演什麼角色"},{"start":585.282,"end":593.41,"text":"或者是說政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任"},{"start":594.833,"end":622.051,"text":"是 跟委員報告在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度這個是大概從電信法時期以來從80幾年以來一直都在推進目前這個業務也雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部但是NCC跟數位部都有密切在合作在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭我們都要求在偏鄉地區要有增加網路建設的一些容量"},{"start":623.451,"end":638.177,"text":"委員提到第二部分,在非偏鄉的部分的建設,因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式,比如說相關民間的業者或國際一些測數的評比,會讓業者有個他律自律的機制。"},{"start":643.639,"end":655.49,"text":"另外如果說它網路品質不好,民眾會跟NCC來申訴,這個申訴量也是變成是一個約束業者來不斷改進的一個動力。"},{"start":657.488,"end":674.501,"text":"可是剛才我提到的如果這樣可以有效的約束業者的話那為什麼他們的投資還是一樣所以這個是我們現在有沒有有效的辦法因為現在已經看到狀況是這樣子表示說現在過去你剛剛提到的這些機制沒有成功的要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資"},{"start":676.16,"end":690.883,"text":"是的 就是这一部分的话在投资的产业复杂方面过去在数位被成立之前我们在相关的一些前瞻预算有所补助叫他们要在重要的设施或者偏乡继续要加持建筑我应该是这么说好了"},{"start":691.423,"end":713.838,"text":"未來這個是義務喔它不是只是他們只是做降本求利而已它是符合公共性的要求所以它有強制性的覆蓋性的這個覆蓋率的義務還有一些備援能力的指標我希望你們能夠有強制性的這個數字去要求最基本的這個社會公義它是公家的國家的這個平寬國家的這個資源委員剛剛講到這個未來是他們的責任"},{"start":715.539,"end":734.385,"text":"也是我們共同的責任我說過這次的風災我們發現政府各項甚至包括民生設施的任性不足所以民間業者要負起這個責任他拿了相當大的特許的權利他就必須負起這樣的責任我請通常會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區"},{"start":735.405,"end":757.866,"text":"如果他沒有把他的網速服務給他穩定提升的話將來我們在這個地方所造成的城市韌性還是不足所以用這個標準要去跟他要求提出一個改善的計畫因為我們不講過去我們講未來現在有這個問題我們就來把它解釋覆蓋率重要的指標速度這個是民眾直接有感受到的沒有就是沒有不夠就是不夠我要要求業者負起責任"},{"start":759.127,"end":770.685,"text":"謝謝 院長我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論這一次風災過後農友們他們關心快速恢復就是復耕復建等等請農業部"},{"start":774.47,"end":803.069,"text":"如果我們單看水平的棚架的網市或者是塑膠布的溫網市為主的這些農業的統計全台被害面積是495公頃加以現在397公頃所以是各縣市之水現在他們的反應就是我們的農友們反應復耕的貸款程序是非常的繁瑣還會增加基層農會的負擔特別是現行的簡易式的塑膠布溫網市每分地貸款90萬可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網市"},{"start":803.689,"end":807.756,"text":"他必須要在額外辦理不管是專業農帶啊或者是一般性貸款等等那"},{"start":809.005,"end":834.602,"text":"如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復健貸款跟專業的農貸或者是一般性貸款的兩個文件其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾所以想請教院長是不是可以檢討或者是調整一下政策讓受債農友如果他有意願直接改建為結構型人物往事的時候能夠放上規定跟申請流程直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元減少行政作業上的重複跟不便"},{"start":835.262,"end":844.669,"text":"因為如果他們現在就要重建短時間又要錯過最佳時機是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的營運部長你怎麼看這個部分"},{"start":845.976,"end":874.009,"text":"我跟委員報告就是您剛才說的就是有一些運往是他在他在這次巡圍以後他想要直接升級的部分那這個升級的部分的專案專案貸款的部分那我之前也跟農金署談過他們也同意就是他以他最後升級的那個那個標的強固形的話就用強固形的那個標準來處理而不是用原來復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款所以這個部分已經有解決"},{"start":875.657,"end":878.194,"text":"再來就是貸款要點修正扣的適用性"},{"start":879.518,"end":906.64,"text":"其實風災之後一開始沒有信心就是要用資金或者是立即重建他們可能會盤點完損失之後評估完市場之後才願意要投資根據耐災性的結構型設施就像我們剛才提到的這種可是現在根據農民組織跟農企業天然災害復耕的貸款要點裡面有說農友必須要受貸證明文件開立一日的15日內辦理貸款如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的但後來又改變心意"},{"start":907.361,"end":935.755,"text":"可能會超過15日的限制沒有辦法使用不知道部長針對這個部分這個部分我想我們我也跟農經署講過就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候你可能會考慮比較多所以在時間上只要他有拿到那個受災的證明然後他的時間是可以延長而且只要他在一段這個時間不會說一定是15天那我也不希望說要變成一個月兩個月因為他們特別是現在"},{"start":945.8,"end":945.82,"text":"好"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":467,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（16時23分）你好，請院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：院長好。上次我們主要是針對農業，這次則是針對災後觀光產業復興方案來跟院長做討論，其中主要是針對我們嘉義縣，特別是山區，也是受到風災影響很重要的地方，包含我們的太平、竹崎、大埔等等，這一些產業合作社也好，或者是發展協會，或者是各商圈，他們亟需要幫助。","院長，現在在太平雲梯，也就是在我們嘉義縣的山區，它每年大概要支付600萬租金給阿里山管理處，再加上3,000萬的行政營運成本，所以成本就是3,600萬左右；類似這樣子的情況，還有包含竹崎的觀音瀑布產業合作社等等，這些都是要向阿管處承租，可是近年來，不僅僅是這一年，其實這三年來基本上夏季的風災都是非常的嚴重，只要有颱風警報，必須就是以安全為主，就要關閉，所以遊客大幅減少。這一次的颱風不僅僅是颱風當天，還有後續的豪雨，等於說7、8月的旅遊旺季基本上是整個泡湯；再來就是7月6號的颱風還重創當地攤商的生財器具還有帆布設施，這些全部都有。我想請教一下在特別條例裡面的第四條第九項的文化觀光振興當中，是不是可以把這類重要觀光設施的紓困予以納入？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對太平雲梯的部分，我們會跟他們來討論看租金怎麼樣減免，他們也可以提出申請，業者也可以提出申請，因為確實我們這段時間遇到很多天災跟風災的狀況。另外就是硬體受損的部分，我們也在思考看怎麼樣協助業者，或者用公共的方式在旁邊該怎麼樣做硬體的建設，這個部分我們也都開始跟他們在溝通。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長，我是希望比照COVID的期間提供一些營運上面的協助，讓他們度過這個衝擊。剛才提到其實不只是交通部，現在經濟部有推出受災店家的援助方案，每戶是補助1萬元，不過要稅籍證明，稅籍證明的部分，其實不管是太平雲梯還是其他合作社方式經營的攤商，他們是一個稅籍下有多個攤位，所以我認為這個申請條件，其實也不是我們，是一般的鄉親都不斷地提出來好像過於嚴苛，也就是說很多有在經營的攤商，他們都有在跟合作社往來，不一定有獨立的稅籍，他可能沒辦法請領，所以也不是只有太平有這樣的狀況，大埔也是有很多實際跟商圈、協會有往來，但不一定有獨立的稅籍，我是不是建議准許合作社或者是商圈或者是協會能夠用造冊方式陳報，當然是要切結來去予以補助，符合我們從寬認定的精神，不知道院長或者是次長有什麼樣的看法？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，一些市場攤販只要是跟地方政府那邊有列管、有案的話，其實我們都可以從寬認定。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，現在就希望可以考慮一下我們的建議，納入考量的想法。再來就是災害保險，因為觀光設施有些是天然有些是人造的，有些是天然設施裡面有一些人造協助的景觀等等，我們是希望未來可不可以考慮建立觀光設施的天災保險機制，讓政府補助一部分的保費，這樣子儘管遇到重大天災的時候還是能夠更快速地恢復運作，不知道院長怎麼看這件事情？"],["陳部長世凱：好，這個部分我們請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣做保險的部分，確實因為每次遇到天災之後，我們的觀光業者都會受到一些損害，不管是營業方面或者是硬體設備方面，如果有保險的話，對他們來說當然是相對比較安全一些，比較有保障一些，這個部分我請觀光署來研議看怎麼樣協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。院長，接下來我要反映地方公所的一些問題，這個可能跟政府採購法第一百零五條有關聯，開口合約跟緊急採購制度，他們有遇到一些瓶頸，我舉個例子，風災過後，中央的經費其實是很快速地到位，但是地方上要執行的話也遇到一些問題，它有錢但沒辦法動工，怎麼說呢？比方說我是山區選出的，但是其實山海都是一線，很多海區最基本的路燈來講，沒有完全恢復，為什麼到現在還沒有辦法完全恢復？因為過去基層公所限於年度的開口合約，也就是說依規定它必須要派工給原得標廠商，可是原本只負責零星維修，因為從來沒有從嘉義登陸過，從來沒有從嘉南平原登陸過，它現在面對數百倍、數千倍的突發維修量的時候，量能是不足的，行政部門可能會說……如同我剛剛講的，依照政府採購法第一百零五條有賦予機關緊急採購的權力，但是現在公所的地方公務員不敢這樣子放手做事，為什麼？第一個是違約風險，可能被原廠商控告；第二個是圖利疑慮，他可能沒有經過招標程序；再來就是事後究責，接下來還要接受政風單位的調查；第四，就算有這個魄力去做，迫於公所有限的人力，他光是要處理民眾的眾多案件，他實在騰不出手來做這些事情。所以，院長，我的第一個問題是行政院有沒有掌握到現行以單一廠商為主的開口合約模式在面臨大規模災害的時候，先天就有能量的限制，它沒有辦法緊急搶修，所以過了兩個月了，不是公所不願意，而是真的沒有足夠的能量去做，在法律上當然是有這樣的法律條文，但實際上沒有公務人員敢做這樣的做法，所以為什麼基層不敢用政府採購法第一百零五條，公所有反映幾個難題：第一個，法規沒有明確說明，假設開口合約廠商能量飽和的時候，機關要如何把超出的部分直接合法的適用緊急採購？這是第一個部分，可能是這個模糊地帶讓基層不敢動。再來就是災後的公所人力，勘災、通報都忙不過來，他很難在短時間內完成大量新的詢價、議價，還有簽約流程。我今天講這麼多的原因是因為我們跟鄉公所，不管是鄉長、鎮長都有類似這樣的問題出現，不只是嘉義縣，嘉義縣是鄉，我想臺南市就是區，這樣的問題確實存在。院長，我們想要請教一下，有沒有辦法請你們研議一下怎麼樣去介入主導、怎麼樣讓第一線公務人員能夠敢做事、能做事？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員所說的，剛剛除了人力的問題，我們另外來討論、來設法之外，這種緊急的採購、開口合約在採購法當中的規定是不是過於嚴謹，或者說應該還可以更有彈性，但是也要在執行上是可行的才對……"],["陳委員冠廷：或者院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們請工程會來做討論，好不好？"],["陳委員冠廷：但是為什麼不敢？因為沒有前例，沒有前例的話就會有剛才提到的，要不就是圖利，要不就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：要因應這樣的氣候、這樣的天災來……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，要不就是後面的政風，但是如果由行政院提出一個標準流程，依流程規章辦理的話，鄉公所就有跡可循，他就知道有什麼樣法律，如果沒有法律，至少有一些規章跟一些辦法，那就比較好去從事。"],["卓院長榮泰：在有安全稽核的機制底下，我們在前頭的，儘量把它開放出來，我們請工程會來研議，有些地方都需要討論。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個速度……我們希望加速恢復他們的家園，這個部分再麻煩院長一定要檢討，之前我們有提過鄉公所的人力配置等等這些都一併納入考量。","再來就是關於電信韌性相關政策的部分要請教院長，院長，其實根據各個新聞報導，在我們嘉義布袋的幾個電信業者，不同的電信業者他們的網速甚至可以相差到29倍，像之前有一段時間，臺南七股地區是沒有訊號的，也就是現在的電信業者在基礎設施的投資是有嚴重的失衡，就是有些可能公股比較多的，他願意去投資，儘管在偏遠地區，他願意去投資更多的基地臺，比方說中華電信現在有3萬4,796座，占市場的42.4%，其他的電信，包含像遠傳是兩萬多，相差1.2萬座，所以各個不同的業者在災區的收訊其實是有很大差別的。現在的問題在於，現有的市場機制沒有辦法保證偏遠地方或者是人口不集中的地方其通訊韌性的時候，政府應該要扮演什麼角色？或者是政府認為是使用網路業者應要負的責任，那你會怎麼樣要求業者負起相關的社會責任？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，在偏鄉或山區這邊我們有個電信普及服務制度，這個大概是從電信法時期以來，從八十幾年以來一直都在持續推進，目前這項業務雖然在數位部成立之後是交由數位部，但是NCC跟數位部都有密切合作，在業者相關的一些重大比方說合併案裡頭，我們都有要求在偏鄉地區要增加網路建設的一些容量。委員提到的第二個部分，在非偏鄉部分的建設，因為我們現在都有透過資訊公開的方式，比方說民間相關業者或者國際的一些測速評比，會讓業者有個他律、自律的機制。另外，如果它的網路品質不好，民眾也會跟NCC申訴，這個申訴量也變成是一個約束業者不斷改進的動力。"],["陳委員冠廷：可是剛才我提到的，如果這樣可以有效地約束業者的話，為什麼他們的投資還是一樣？所以我們現在有沒有有效的辦法？因為現在已經看到的狀況是這樣子，表示過去你剛剛提到的這些機制，沒有成功地要求他們做出應該的社會責任跟他的投資。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：是的，這一部分的話，在投資的產業輔導方面，過去在數位部成立之前，我們在相關的一些前瞻預算有所補助，要求他們在重要的設施或者偏鄉地區要加速建設。"],["陳委員冠廷：我這麼說好了，未來這個是義務，不只是求利而已，這是符合公共性的要求，所以它有強制性的覆蓋率的義務，還有一些備援能力的指標，我希望你們能夠有強制性的數字去要求最基本的社會公益，它是公家的、國家的頻寬、國家的資源。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，如委員剛剛所講的，未來是他們的責任，也是我們共同的責任，我說過這次的風災，我們發現政府各項，甚至包括民生設施的韌性不足，所以民間業者要負起這個責任，它拿了相當大的特許權力，它就必須負起這樣的責任，我請通傳會要求民間業者在所有偏鄉地區，如果它沒有把網速服務穩定提升的話，將來這個地方的城市韌性還是不足，所以要用這個標準去要求它提出一個改善的計畫。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝院長，因為我們不講過去，我們講未來，現在有這個問題，我們就來把它解決，覆蓋率、重要的指標、速度，這是民眾直接有感受到的，沒有就是沒有、不夠就是不夠，我們就來做改進。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，我們會要求業者負起責任。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。院長，我們接下來針對農業金融相關的貸款額度來跟你做一些討論，這次風災過後，農友們關心快速恢復，就是復耕復建等等……"],["主席：請農業部長備詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：請農業部，如果我們單看水平的棚架網室或是塑膠布溫網室為主的這些農業統計，全臺被害面積是495公頃，嘉義縣占397公頃，是各縣市之最，現在農友們反映復耕的貸款程序非常繁瑣，還會增加基層農會的負擔，特別是現行的簡易式塑膠布溫網室每分地貸款90萬，可是如果農友想要改建為結構強固型的溫網室，他必須要再額外辦理不管是專業農貸或是一般性貸款等等，如果他同時要辦理復耕型的復建貸款跟專業農貸或是一般性貸款，需要兩個文件，其實是造成農友跟基層農會作業上的困擾。所以想請教院長，是不是可以檢討或是調整一下政策？讓受災農友，如果他有意願直接改建為結構型溫網室的話，能夠放寬規定跟申請流程，直接核給每分地的貸款180萬元，減少行政作業上的重複跟不便，因為如果他們現在就要重建，短時間又要錯過最佳時機，是不是可以給我們一個比較明確的時刻表，讓我們知道說可以不用無限期的因應，不知道部長你怎麼看這個部分？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，您剛才說的，就是有些溫網室在這次損毀以後，他想要直接升級的部分，這個升級的專案貸款部分，我之前也跟農金署談過，他們也同意，就是以他最後升級的標的，強固型的話就用強固型的標準來處理，而不是用復建成原來樣子的那個金額來貸款，所以這個部分已經有解決。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。再來就是貸款要點修正後的適用性，其實風災之後一開始沒有信心，就是要用資金或者是立即重建，他們可能會盤點完損失、評估完市場之後，才願意要投資更具耐災性的結構型設施，就像我們剛才提到的這種，可是現在根據農民組織及農企業天然災害復耕復建貸款要點，農友必須要在受災證明文件開立翌日的十五日內辦理貸款，如果他原本不打算要做簡易型的，但後來又改變心意，可能會超過十五日的限制，沒有辦法適用，不知道部長針對這個部分有怎麼樣的看法？"],["陳部長駿季：這個部分我也跟農金署講過，就是當你要修復一個溫室的時候，你可能會考慮比較多，所以在時間上，只要他有拿到受災的證明，他的時間是可以延長的，而且這個時間不會說一定是十五天，我也不希望又變成一個月、兩個月，特別是現在溫室的工很難找，可能會拖半年，所以只要拿到受災戶證明的話，他來貸款我們就會同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長的備詢，謝謝。卓院長請喝水。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢，林憶君委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":276,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-26","speakers":["韓國瑜","林俊憲","郭國文","蘇清泉","邱議瑩","王鴻薇","陳冠廷","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","王育敏","何欣純","徐巧芯"],"page_start":216,"meetingDate":["2025-08-26"],"gazette_id":"1147401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第26次會議紀錄","content":"行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長、行政院公共工程委員會主任委員及相關部會首長列席報告\n「中央政府丹娜絲颱風及七二八豪雨災後復原重建特別預算案」編製經過並備質詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1147401_00005"}}}