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998.278, \"end\": 998.318, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"各\", \"start\": 998.318, \"end\": 998.438, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 998.438, \"end\": 998.458, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,769 --> 00:00:26,122\n請部長還有副秘書長好部長副秘書長委員好委員好好先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現\n\n2\n00:00:27,847 --> 00:00:54,018\n在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊錦如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到\n\n3\n00:00:54,980 --> 00:01:12,888\n第一个就是性侵被告他们那个受刑人他们保外就医的时候的管理以及第二个保外就医办法有提到一个第12条就是如果他治愈啦或者是说明显改善的时候监狱指定7天以上的期日\n\n4\n00:01:13,628 --> 00:01:31,571\n要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎\n\n5\n00:01:32,853 --> 00:01:46,728\n就這兩個部分跟委員報告事實上我們在這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法\n\n6\n00:01:47,389 --> 00:02:06,175\n那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好\n\n7\n00:02:13,826 --> 00:02:37,481\n所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦\n\n8\n00:02:39,682 --> 00:03:06,968\n那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些\n\n9\n00:03:07,788 --> 00:03:37,035\n看起來人畜無害的人結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪這對不起國人啦好那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好那我再問下一個問題喔部長你去年喔9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到\n\n10\n00:03:38,193 --> 00:03:52,325\n這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決\n\n11\n00:03:53,346 --> 00:04:21,053\n那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定\n\n12\n00:04:22,173 --> 00:04:48,411\n我覺得就算了我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話我有在問你嗎部長我有在問你嗎部長你一定要搶答嗎麻煩時間停止\n\n13\n00:04:52,393 --> 00:05:16,801\n部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣\n\n14\n00:05:18,831 --> 00:05:47,282\n我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎\n\n15\n00:05:48,755 --> 00:06:17,200\n哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子\n\n16\n00:06:20,236 --> 00:06:33,351\n我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦\n\n17\n00:06:34,591 --> 00:07:00,152\n我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛\n\n18\n00:07:00,592 --> 00:07:14,427\n那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦\n\n19\n00:07:23,104 --> 00:07:29,584\n結果我們永遠等不到譬如說我想一個啦洁癖者保護法不法關說棄保潛逃\n\n20\n00:07:31,254 --> 00:07:53,868\n然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講\n\n21\n00:07:58,030 --> 00:08:20,872\n我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講講死大家好好的來就法律過去或\n\n22\n00:08:21,893 --> 00:08:49,105\n過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個\n\n23\n00:08:50,629 --> 00:08:56,233\n保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说\n\n24\n00:08:58,908 --> 00:09:19,345\n你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官\n\n25\n00:09:20,846 --> 00:09:42,293\n所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是\n\n26\n00:09:44,898 --> 00:10:09,739\n教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在\n\n27\n00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:20,511\n你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准\n\n28\n00:10:22,103 --> 00:10:49,542\n首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構\n\n29\n00:10:50,623 --> 00:11:14,838\n那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力\n\n30\n00:11:15,658 --> 00:11:32,703\n受救審時也要執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的\n\n31\n00:11:33,303 --> 00:11:55,599\n不管他在外面多壞他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說都說你不能關我我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說法庭變成是大家演戲爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦傅敏\n\n32\n00:11:56,704 --> 00:12:20,570\n那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌\n\n33\n00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:31,937\n好吧那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得\n\n34\n00:12:33,336 --> 00:12:53,256\n已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了\n\n35\n00:12:55,054 --> 00:13:20,012\n所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦其實我看完那個判決我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個\n\n36\n00:13:21,454 --> 00:13:30,887\n我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年\n\n37\n00:13:39,129 --> 00:13:57,561\n關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面\n\n38\n00:13:59,942 --> 00:14:15,628\n讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎\n\n39\n00:14:18,155 --> 00:14:32,235\n這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的\n\n40\n00:14:32,876 --> 00:14:50,792\n那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇\n\n41\n00:14:52,013 --> 00:15:15,546\n總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好那個\n\n42\n00:15:16,627 --> 00:15:25,439\n部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下\n\n43\n00:15:26,618 --> 00:15:50,528\n一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在\n\n44\n00:15:51,388 --> 00:16:18,749\n我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了\n\n45\n00:16:19,867 --> 00:16:38,458\n事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好那沒關係部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好謝謝各位\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n769\t26122\t請部長還有副秘書長好 部長 副秘書長委員好委員好好 先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現\n27847\t54018\t在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊錦如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢 性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到\n54980\t72888\t第一个就是性侵被告他们那个受刑人他们保外就医的时候的管理以及第二个保外就医办法有提到一个第12条就是如果他治愈啦或者是说明显改善的时候监狱指定7天以上的期日\n73628\t91571\t要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎\n92853\t106728\t就這兩個部分跟委員報告 事實上我們在這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法\n107389\t126175\t那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對 保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好\n133826\t157481\t所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦\n159682\t186968\t那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些\n187788\t217035\t看起來人畜無害的人 結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢 這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人 你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪 這對不起國人啦好 那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好 那我再問下一個問題喔部長 你去年喔 9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到\n218193\t232325\t這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決\n233346\t261053\t那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定\n262173\t288411\t我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述 完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止\n292393\t316801\t部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣\n318831\t347282\t我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎\n348755\t377200\t哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子\n380236\t393351\t我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦\n394591\t420152\t我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛\n420592\t434427\t那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢 已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快 現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦\n443104\t449584\t結果我們永遠等不到 譬如說我想一個啦 洁癖者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃\n451254\t473868\t然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講\n478030\t500872\t我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或\n501893\t529105\t過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個\n530629\t536233\t保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说\n538908\t559345\t你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官\n560846\t582293\t所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好 這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是\n584898\t609739\t教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在\n610640\t620511\t你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准\n622103\t649542\t首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構\n650623\t674838\t那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力\n675658\t692703\t受救審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的\n693303\t715599\t不管他在外面多壞 他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖 而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人 密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說 都說你不能關我 我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說 法庭變成是大家演戲 爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好 我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦 傅敏\n716704\t740570\t那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌\n742236\t751937\t好吧 那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得\n753336\t773256\t已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了\n775054\t800012\t所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的 像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦 其實我看完那個判決 我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員 第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個\n801454\t810887\t我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年\n819129\t837561\t關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面\n839942\t855628\t讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好 那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎\n858155\t872235\t這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的\n872876\t890792\t那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇\n892013\t915546\t總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個\n916627\t925439\t部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下\n926618\t950528\t一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在\n951388\t978749\t我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了\n979867\t998458\t事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好 那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝各位\n","txt":"請部長還有副秘書長好 部長 副秘書長委員好委員好好 先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現\n在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊錦如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢 性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到\n第一个就是性侵被告他们那个受刑人他们保外就医的时候的管理以及第二个保外就医办法有提到一个第12条就是如果他治愈啦或者是说明显改善的时候监狱指定7天以上的期日\n要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎\n就這兩個部分跟委員報告 事實上我們在這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法\n那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對 保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好\n所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦\n那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些\n看起來人畜無害的人 結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢 這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人 你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪 這對不起國人啦好 那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好 那我再問下一個問題喔部長 你去年喔 9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到\n這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決\n那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定\n我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述 完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止\n部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣\n我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎\n哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子\n我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦\n我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛\n那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢 已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快 現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦\n結果我們永遠等不到 譬如說我想一個啦 洁癖者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃\n然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講\n我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或\n過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個\n保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说\n你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官\n所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好 這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是\n教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在\n你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准\n首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構\n那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力\n受救審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的\n不管他在外面多壞 他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖 而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人 密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說 都說你不能關我 我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說 法庭變成是大家演戲 爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好 我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦 傅敏\n那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌\n好吧 那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得\n已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了\n所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的 像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦 其實我看完那個判決 我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員 第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個\n我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年\n關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面\n讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好 那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎\n這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的\n那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇\n總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個\n部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下\n一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在\n我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了\n事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好 那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝各位\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.769 --> 00:26.122\n請部長還有副秘書長好部長副秘書長委員好委員好好先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現\n\n00:27.847 --> 00:54.018\n在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊錦如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到\n\n00:54.980 --> 01:12.888\n第一个就是性侵被告他们那个受刑人他们保外就医的时候的管理以及第二个保外就医办法有提到一个第12条就是如果他治愈啦或者是说明显改善的时候监狱指定7天以上的期日\n\n01:13.628 --> 01:31.571\n要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎\n\n01:32.853 --> 01:46.728\n就這兩個部分跟委員報告事實上我們在這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法\n\n01:47.389 --> 02:06.175\n那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好\n\n02:13.826 --> 02:37.481\n所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦\n\n02:39.682 --> 03:06.968\n那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些\n\n03:07.788 --> 03:37.035\n看起來人畜無害的人結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪這對不起國人啦好那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好那我再問下一個問題喔部長你去年喔9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到\n\n03:38.193 --> 03:52.325\n這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決\n\n03:53.346 --> 04:21.053\n那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定\n\n04:22.173 --> 04:48.411\n我覺得就算了我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話我有在問你嗎部長我有在問你嗎部長你一定要搶答嗎麻煩時間停止\n\n04:52.393 --> 05:16.801\n部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣\n\n05:18.831 --> 05:47.282\n我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎\n\n05:48.755 --> 06:17.200\n哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子\n\n06:20.236 --> 06:33.351\n我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦\n\n06:34.591 --> 07:00.152\n我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛\n\n07:00.592 --> 07:14.427\n那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦\n\n07:23.104 --> 07:29.584\n結果我們永遠等不到譬如說我想一個啦洁癖者保護法不法關說棄保潛逃\n\n07:31.254 --> 07:53.868\n然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講\n\n07:58.030 --> 08:20.872\n我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講講死大家好好的來就法律過去或\n\n08:21.893 --> 08:49.105\n過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個\n\n08:50.629 --> 08:56.233\n保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说\n\n08:58.908 --> 09:19.345\n你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官\n\n09:20.846 --> 09:42.293\n所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是\n\n09:44.898 --> 10:09.739\n教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在\n\n10:10.640 --> 10:20.511\n你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准\n\n10:22.103 --> 10:49.542\n首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構\n\n10:50.623 --> 11:14.838\n那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力\n\n11:15.658 --> 11:32.703\n受救審時也要執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的\n\n11:33.303 --> 11:55.599\n不管他在外面多壞他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說都說你不能關我我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說法庭變成是大家演戲爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦傅敏\n\n11:56.704 --> 12:20.570\n那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌\n\n12:22.236 --> 12:31.937\n好吧那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得\n\n12:33.336 --> 12:53.256\n已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了\n\n12:55.054 --> 13:20.012\n所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦其實我看完那個判決我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個\n\n13:21.454 --> 13:30.887\n我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年\n\n13:39.129 --> 13:57.561\n關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面\n\n13:59.942 --> 14:15.628\n讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎\n\n14:18.155 --> 14:32.235\n這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的\n\n14:32.876 --> 14:50.792\n那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇\n\n14:52.013 --> 15:15.546\n總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好那個\n\n15:16.627 --> 15:25.439\n部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下\n\n15:26.618 --> 15:50.528\n一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在\n\n15:51.388 --> 16:18.749\n我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了\n\n16:19.867 --> 16:38.458\n事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好那沒關係部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好謝謝各位\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.769,"end":26.122,"text":"請部長還有副秘書長好 部長 副秘書長委員好委員好好 先請教部長我們上一次有提到就是有一位性侵性侵的受刑人他保外就醫然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性結果後來我們發現"},{"start":27.847,"end":54.018,"text":"在我們現在國家非常有趣的就是舊省的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐譬如說蔡正元譬如說黃磊錦如都被要求戴電子腳鐐結果呢 性侵的被性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人那請問這個部分呢當時我有提到"},{"start":54.98,"end":72.888,"text":"第一个就是性侵被告他们那个受刑人他们保外就医的时候的管理以及第二个保外就医办法有提到一个第12条就是如果他治愈啦或者是说明显改善的时候监狱指定7天以上的期日"},{"start":73.628,"end":91.571,"text":"要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行那我當時覺得為什麼要有七天難道我們是一個小小多山的國家所以我們一個東西竟然要有七天這麼長的時間通知他回來執行我覺得這個不合理那請問一下部長在這段時間你們有研議了嗎"},{"start":92.853,"end":106.728,"text":"就這兩個部分跟委員報告 事實上我們在這個我們請矯正署要做一個嚴厲檢討那這個降仿式的密度我們會加強另外我會做一個修法譬如說反加碳式的一個辦法"},{"start":107.389,"end":126.175,"text":"那另外我現在在跟你談的是保外就醫對 保外就醫那另外就是保外就醫這部分是不是有電子監控因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛那這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個有沒有開始動作了現在就開始要做動作所以你們現在是怎樣有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出我是請教證署署長來報告整個一個進度的問題好不好"},{"start":133.826,"end":157.481,"text":"所以你自己不知道是不是這個有在處理啊但是詳細的細節上的這個請教今天矯正署長有來嘛你跟我說一下有沒有有沒有任何進度了有沒有在研議了或是什麼你不能我都沒有看到啊他那個在八月八月五號已經有會同相關單位來做一個招會來討論了嘛但是已經在開新型做法制作業的一則啟動啦"},{"start":159.682,"end":186.968,"text":"那你們還要多久可以完成啊就這個部分那個是不是9月4號它裡面很多東西是只要法務部那個內部自己更改規定而已啊他其實只是辦法他不是法律啊那可不可以速度再快一點好不好那尤其是我說保外就醫譬如說傷害受刑人的保外就醫信心受刑人的保外就醫這個沒有監控我覺得全國人民不能接受就你現在對於一些"},{"start":187.788,"end":217.035,"text":"看起來人畜無害的人 結果你要嚴格的監控結果呢 這些當初犯了嚴重的犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人 你卻毫無監控讓他在外面繼續犯罪 這對不起國人啦好 那這個部分請你們趕快處理然後資料要趕快來給我好 那我再問下一個問題喔部長 你去年喔 9月你已經說要提不得假釋的修法那為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到"},{"start":218.193,"end":232.325,"text":"這個修法沒有修那個77條跟78條之一等條文那也要符合就是也配合那個憲判八字跟憲判二字的113年憲判八字二號的一個憲法判決"},{"start":233.346,"end":261.053,"text":"那這部分我們已經送行政院在已經審理了那目前已經開審查會已經開四次了那最後一次是8月15號開第五次的審查會昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張祺凱委員的那個論述我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業但對法律的理解我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定"},{"start":262.173,"end":288.411,"text":"我覺得就算了 我不敢再期待行政院了啦那如果在那邊又推給行政院喔那就算了我跟你講 包括在那邊的複密你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張綺凱委員的就法律上面的論述 憲法上面的論述就暫時處分的論述 完全胡說八道騙國人啦你不要講說胡說八道你講什麼話 我有在問你嗎部長 我有在問你嗎部長 你一定要搶答嗎 麻煩時間停止"},{"start":292.393,"end":316.801,"text":"部長我有在問你話嗎部長你現在是為了要求你的官位不要被換掉就開始在那邊幫院長洗地是不是你是不是要這樣你要不要我講得更難聽我已經不想要講很難聽了耶我希望你在講官面前還有一定的顏面所以我對你的質詢一路以來我都予以尊重但如果你一定要這樣"},{"start":318.831,"end":347.282,"text":"我現在在講院長昨天我跟複密在講昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況胡說八道在騙國人他自己法律系畢業的有夠我不想講不好聽的話真的不應該還幹到院長了在那邊說謊騙國人法律規定是那樣嗎暫時處分是那樣嗎我愛做不做我高興就好嗎暫時處分我申請了以後我就可以不做嗎"},{"start":348.755,"end":377.2,"text":"哪一個法律哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度什麼時候申請之後可以暫時停止執行的我國有這樣的制度嗎我講這樣哪裡錯你為了保你的官位你為了要讓院長留下你你就在面前講這個不過我覺得大家想太多啦你的組織根本不是他啦你不要以為我們不知道算了我跟你講部長我在這我不想講我跟你講你剛剛如果不要這樣子我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來你不應該這樣子"},{"start":380.236,"end":393.351,"text":"我們都實務出來的啦誰跟誰守我會不知道嗎部長你以為我不知道嗎你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎誰跟誰守我們實務界的都一清二楚啦"},{"start":394.591,"end":420.152,"text":"我覺得今天制度就好好走好不好我們今天在這邊任何的修法任何制度怎麼走司法是百年大計跟教育一樣欸為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面或毀在一兩任部長上面我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情我對於司法的要求就是對於任何人都一樣今天任何一個人犯罪就是偵辦就提出了這個修正草案了嘛"},{"start":420.592,"end":434.427,"text":"那修正草案我們也是經過多番的一個討論然後呢 已經送到行政區審理那8月10號也是第五次的一個審查那我想差不多應該是到尾聲連叫審訊了嘛那再來在會議室法院那我想應該快 現在可能下個會請都送到我們這裡趕進度了嘛我想我們進入立法院這段時間法務部給我們很多承諾啦"},{"start":443.104,"end":449.584,"text":"結果我們永遠等不到 譬如說我想一個啦 洁癖者保護法不法關說 棄保潛逃"},{"start":451.254,"end":473.868,"text":"然後到這次的刑法的修正等等的我覺得一堆的案子包括人工智慧基本法等等一堆的案子反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家 疼惜這個國家我們發現執政黨不做事發現司改會議開完之後等於是廢話只挑對自己有利的司改的決議來做對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到然後今天請你來這裡你還沒繼續大家來辯論來辯論就來辯論部長我跟你講"},{"start":478.03,"end":500.872,"text":"我不是提公事包出來的檢察官我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官在司法事務上面 我不會輸你啦我不是提皮包出身的啦我不是八截長官出身的啦如果你今天要來談司法事務 大家來談啦只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面 給部長留一些顏面很多東西不要講 講死大家好好的來就法律過去或"},{"start":501.893,"end":529.105,"text":"過去政府有一些不對地方也來不及了我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的我的想法只是這樣所以我一直質詢到現在我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵惡言相向就我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好我不要去想其他的所以我還是希望部長你們還是要重視一下我們提出來一些建議包括我剛剛講的那個"},{"start":530.629,"end":536.233,"text":"保安就医期间的一些监督因为上一次你跟矫正组组长两个有提到就是说"},{"start":538.908,"end":559.345,"text":"你那個監督機關我上次有問到你們那個那個保外就醫那個監督機關是誰你們跟我說是矯正署嗎事實上你看一下條文的第三條其實應該是檢察官你再回去看一下因為受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的那這個是不是應該是檢察官"},{"start":560.846,"end":582.293,"text":"所以大家在條文的部分再麻煩你們再參考一下但是我的意思還是這樣因為這些性侵或是傷害或殺人這些人如果他們把外就醫卻沒有人監控我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情好不好 這個再麻煩部長你們注意那複密這邊我請教一下複密我覺得今天還是有一個問題就是"},{"start":584.898,"end":609.739,"text":"教化可能性的問題因為現在法院很喜歡用教化可能性來動不動就是說這個人不能判死因為他有教化可能性但是教化可能性他沒有一個標準到目前為止還是看不到一個標準那很多時候你把它推給醫生或是什麼心理師他們的評斷出來那現在發生一個狀況就是說你只要在"},{"start":610.64,"end":620.511,"text":"你只要在审理期间你比较会表演的人那就没事情了那就永远不可能判死傅密 请问一下教化可能性有没有一定的标准"},{"start":622.103,"end":649.542,"text":"首先報告委員就是那個這裡通常大家所說的那個教化可能性它其實是在那個刑法57條有關於那個量刑因子中就是它的那個相關的這一些背景跟犯後態度來整個做一個那個綜合評價那目前司法院也希望說把這些量刑不管是在程序上或者是說實質的這一些那個標準就是把它盡量那個建置那個結構"},{"start":650.623,"end":674.838,"text":"那如果這部分我們是不是可以請我們的刑事廳長來進一步說明還是用書面你這個部分書面給我好了因為我還是認為教化可能性這句話目前還沒有辦法找到一個很詳細的標準另外就是說因為我們現在對於判決死刑的部分你現在是被告行為時也要有識別的能力"},{"start":675.658,"end":692.703,"text":"受救審時也要 執行時也要其實這些條件加一加我覺得目前確實我國執行在判決跟執行上面已經幾乎變成是不可能的一件事情了好像我們都走過失誤其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的"},{"start":693.303,"end":715.599,"text":"不管他在外面多壞 他來開庭的時候永遠都表現得一副非常乖 而且非常孝順嘛所以人家說全台灣孝順的人 密度最高的地方其實是在法院因為每個人來說 都說你不能關我 我要回家孝順父母所以這個會不會變成說 法庭變成是大家演戲 爭相演戲的地方我只要演得好 我就不會被判死刑是不是會有這個可能性啦 傅敏"},{"start":716.704,"end":740.57,"text":"那個跟委員報告剛才那個委員提到的就是說考量他那個精神那個狀況就是必須是在一個行為時點還有一個是那個判決的時候還有一個是那個執行的時候這個事實上他都有客觀的那個標準那就是說跟所謂的法庭演戲我想這可能就是說他是可以去那個檢驗的法官也就是也會進一步去審酌"},{"start":742.236,"end":751.937,"text":"好吧 那没关系那这样我想我想因为最近很多实务的案例法官的判决说他的判决的内容当然我们是尊重但是他有一些已经到我觉得"},{"start":753.336,"end":773.256,"text":"已經幾乎到不合理的程度了啦譬如說那個馬大生那個馬國女大生被殺的那個案子其實判決裡面還有提到說他認為說這個被告犯下本案之後他已經他說這個他的對於這個社會的規範行為長模等相關概念都已經加以思考並且已經歸納了已經內化了"},{"start":775.054,"end":800.012,"text":"所以他這可能會有這個教化的可能性等等的 像這一類的論述變成說我個人感覺啦 其實我看完那個判決 我有一個感覺我覺得這社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑絕對不會被判死刑第一個是演員 第二個是政客因為這兩種人每天都在演戲所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑因為他演戲是演到很厲害的所以永遠都是有教化可能性所以會有這個"},{"start":801.454,"end":810.887,"text":"我個人是覺得是有這個狀況剛剛我在做提案說明的時候其實我有提到因為無期徒刑現在平均假釋的從這102到111年這個平均假釋的時間只有17.9年"},{"start":819.129,"end":837.561,"text":"關17.9年就可以出來其實這真的是很低我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據其實是不太能接受最後我複密我看過你們的報告你們對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同只是你們覺得說是不是應該反映在各個條文裡面"},{"start":839.942,"end":855.628,"text":"讓法官能夠有得依循我想你們的主軸是這樣對不對是 就是還有在什麼時候適用因為他的法律效果竟然不一樣就是他應該更明確性OK好 那我懂就是說至少覆密是認同無期徒刑是分級部長請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎"},{"start":858.155,"end":872.235,"text":"這個我們尊重委員的一個體驗那我想這個要做一個配套因為我在那個報告中有講嘛因為這還要對應那個分責的問題那這邊最後我就跟複密這邊說明一下就我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的"},{"start":872.876,"end":890.792,"text":"那至於說要不要放在個別個案各個犯罪罪名下面去做因為我個人的見解是不用因為我應該是讓法官有一個裁量權而是設在總則裡面總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級那至於分責或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名他要選擇"},{"start":892.013,"end":915.546,"text":"總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個我覺得這個是交由法官尊重他個案審理的裁量權所以我才會認為說沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下這是我個人對於這個提案我心中的想法這部分我知道跟市法院不一樣但是我想要這部分就很謝謝市法院給我們的建議謝謝法務部給我們的建議好 那個"},{"start":916.627,"end":925.439,"text":"部長我跟你講我剛講到那個院長那部分你也不用再多做說明了如果說部長你覺得我講話有問題那部長也可以去了解一下"},{"start":926.618,"end":950.528,"text":"一個法律三讀通過後其實它在被宣告違憲之前其實它就是一個有效的法律人民都要遵守各機關也要遵守第二個即便你申請釋憲即便你申請暫時處分但是在法官還沒有下裁定判決之前其實它就是一個有效的法律全國人民都必須遵守絕對不存在"},{"start":951.388,"end":978.749,"text":"我申請了釋憲或我申請了暫時處分我就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行總統的這句話以及院長的這句話其實會被法律學者笑的會被法官笑的所以我在跟各位報告院長跟總統的這句話的論述是不對的更何況所謂編列預算它就叫做執行法律通過的東西你編列預算的這個動作就叫做執行所以你去申請了"},{"start":979.867,"end":998.458,"text":"事先或者是暫時處分不能夠暫停執行好 那沒關係 部長你有興趣你就回去研究一下啦但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋尤其是位居總統以及院長這麼高位階的人更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話好 謝謝各位"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":417,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時46分）我們請部長還有副秘書長。"],["主席：請部長、副秘書長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我先請教部長，我們上一次有提到有一位性侵的受刑人保外就醫，然後又再性侵了其他兩位女性。結果後來我們發現，我們國家現在非常有趣的就是，就審的人常常會被逼著戴電子腳鐐，譬如說蔡正元，譬如說黃呂錦茹，都被要求戴電子腳鐐，結果性侵的受刑人保外就醫卻完全不受控管，讓他在保外就醫的時候再去性侵其他人。有關這個部分，當時我有提到，第一個是性侵受刑人保外就醫時的管理，以及第二個是保外就醫辦法第十二條的規定，如果他病況已治癒或是明顯改善的時候，監獄應指定七天以上的期日，要求他再到地檢署報到或返監執行。我當時覺得為什麼要有七天，難道我們一個小小多山的國家需要七天這麼長的時間來通知他報到或返監執行嗎？我覺得這個不合理。請問一下部長，在這段時間你們就這兩個部分有研議了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，事實上我們有請矯正署要嚴厲檢討，對於訪視的密度我們會加強，另外也會修法，譬如說返家探視的辦法。另外，剛才有提……"],["吳委員宗憲：不是啦！我現在跟你談的是保外就醫啦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，保外就醫。保外就醫這部分是不是要有電子監控？因為現在沒有法源的依據嘛，這部分我們會嚴厲來做一個……"],["吳委員宗憲：有沒有開始動作了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在就開始要做，這個是不是我請……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你們現在是怎樣？有沒有開過會討論或者是有沒有提出……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我請矯正署署長來報告整個的進度問題，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你自己不知道，是不是？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有在處理啊，但是詳細的細節，我請矯正署來說明，今天矯正署署長有來嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是，你跟我說一下有沒有任何進度、有沒有在研議了或是什麼，我都沒有看到啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：在8月5號已經有會同相關單位來召會討論了，這已經開始在進行法制作業的啟動了！"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們還要多久可以完成？就這個部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是9月4號……"],["吳委員宗憲：裡面很多東西是只要法務部內部自己更改規定而已啊！只是辦法，並不是法律啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有，這個我尊重矯正署，要矯正署他們去研議。"],["吳委員宗憲：可不可以速度再快一點？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會儘快，好不好？9月4號……"],["吳委員宗憲：尤其是我說保外就醫……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為現在已經8月27號……"],["吳委員宗憲：譬如傷害罪受刑人的保外就醫、性侵罪受刑人保外就醫，這個沒有監控，我覺得全國人民不能接受！現在對於一些看起來人畜無害的人，結果你是嚴格的監控，但是對於這些當初犯了嚴重犯罪然後現在保外就醫的人，你卻毫無監控，讓他在外面繼續犯罪，這對不起國人啦！這個部分，請你們趕快處理，然後資料要趕快提供給我。","我再問下一個問題，部長，你去年9月就已經說了要提不得假釋的修法，為什麼到現在我們都還沒有看到？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關這個修法，我們有修第七十七條跟第七十八條之一等條文啦，也要符合、配合113年憲判字第8號跟第2號的憲法判決，這部分我們已經送行政院在審議了，目前審查會已經開了四次，最後一次是8月15號有開第五次的審查會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟部長說明啦，昨天我聽到行政院院長在回答張啓楷委員的那個論述，我就發現這個院長雖然是法律系畢業，但對法律的理解，我不知道他是刻意誤導國人還是自己搞不清楚狀況，還在那邊大言不慚的亂講一堆法律的規定，我覺得就算了，我不敢再期待行政院了啦，如果你在這邊又推給行政院的話，那就算了！"],["鄭部長銘謙：再來，這個因為……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，包括站在旁邊的副秘，你可以去聽一下昨天卓榮泰院長怎麼回答張啓楷委員的，法律上面的論述、憲法上面的論述、暫時處分的論述，完全胡說八道騙國人啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：你不要講說胡說八道，委員，他……"],["吳委員宗憲：你講什麼話！我有在問你嗎？部長，我有在問你嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們就針對這個審查……"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你一定要搶答嗎？","麻煩時間停止。","部長！部長！我有在問你話嗎？部長，你現在是怎樣？"],["主席：部長，請等委員質詢，好不好？"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，你現在是為了求你的官位不要被換掉，就開始在那邊幫院長洗地，是不是？你是不是要這樣？你要不要我講得更難聽？我已經不想要講很難聽了耶，我希望你在檢察官面前還有一定的顏面，所以我對你的質詢，一路以來我都予以尊重，但如果你一定要這樣，我現在在講，我跟副秘在講，昨天院長對於暫時處分根本搞不清楚狀況！胡說八道在騙國人，他自己法律系畢業的，有夠……我不想講不好聽的話，真的不應該！還幹到院長了，在那邊說謊騙國人。","法律規定是那樣嗎？暫時處分是那樣嗎？我愛做不做、我高興就好嗎？暫時處分我聲請了以後，我就可以不做嗎？哪一個法律、哪一個學者敢跟我說有這樣子的制度？什麼時候聲請之後可以暫時停止執行的，我國有這樣的制度嗎？我講這樣哪裡錯？你為了保你的官位、你為了要讓院長留下你，你就在他面前講這個。不過我覺得大家想太多了，你的主子根本不是他啦！你不要以為我們不知道。算了，部長，在這裡我不想講了，我跟你講，你剛剛如果不要這樣子，我覺得有很多東西我不想講出來，你不應該這樣子！我們都實務界出來的，誰跟誰熟我會不知道嗎？部長，你以為我不知道嗎？你真的要我把很多事情說出來嗎？誰跟誰熟，我們實務界的都一清二楚啦！","我覺得今天制度就好好走，好不好？我們今天在那邊任何的修法、任何的制度怎麼走，司法是百年大計，跟教育一樣耶！為什麼你要毀在幾個案子上面，或毀在一、兩任部長上面？我覺得我沒有辦法接受這個事情，我對於司法的要求就是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我再跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：對於任何人都一樣，今天任何一個人犯罪就去偵辦。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們去年就提出了這個修正草案，修正草案我們也是經過多方討論，已經送到行政院去審議，8月15號……是第五次審查，我想……"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦！我懂……"],["鄭部長銘謙：應該是到尾聲，已經要審竣了嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：就是法務部已經把草案送到行政院……"],["鄭部長銘謙：再來，再會銜司法院，我想應該很快……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我知道、我知道了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：希望等下個會期就送到，我們在趕進度了嘛！"],["吳委員宗憲：我了解了，你不用再講了。我們進入立法院這段時間，法務部給我們很多承諾，結果我們永遠等不到，譬如我講揭弊者保護法、不法關說、棄保潛逃，到這一次的刑法修正等等，我覺得包括人工智慧基本法等等的一堆案子，反而是在野黨拼命為了這個國家、疼惜這個國家，我們發現執政黨不做事、發現司改會議一開完之後，等於是廢話，只挑對自己有利的司改決議來做，對自己有監督的就全部假裝沒有看到，然後今天請你來這裡，你還在那邊繼續就是大家來辯論、來辯論就來辯論。部長，我跟你講，我不是提公事包出來的檢察官，我是在第一線幹了20年的檢察官，在司法實務上面我不會輸你啦！我不是提皮包出身的、我不是巴結長官出身的！如果你今天要來談司法實務，大家來談啦！只是很多時候我覺得給部裡面、給部長留一些顏面，很多東西不要講死，大家好好地就法律……過去政府有一些不對的地方也來不及了，我們現在趕快把法律修正成對國家跟人民有利的，我的想法只是這樣。所以我質詢到現在，我為什麼不喜歡跟人家破口大罵、惡言相向，我覺得我該做的是把制度修好就好，我不要去想其他的。","所以我還是希望，部長，你們還是要重視一下我們提出來的一些建議，包括我剛剛講的保外就醫期間的一些監督。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為上一次你跟矯正署署長兩個有提到，我上次有問到你們保外就醫的那個監督機關是誰？你們跟我說是矯正署。事實上，你看一下條文的第三條，其實應該是檢察官，你再回去看一下。因為「受刑人不服監獄不予報請監督機關核准保外就醫者」，那個監督機關是有核准保外就醫的，這個是否應該是檢察官？所以大家在條文的部分，麻煩你們再參考一下。","但我的意思還是這樣，因為性侵、傷害或殺人的這些人，如果他們保外就醫卻沒有人監控，我覺得對社會是一件很危險的事情，好不好？這個再麻煩部長你們注意。","副秘這邊我請教一下，我覺得今天還是有一個問題，就是教化可能性的問題，因為現在法院很喜歡用「教化可能性」，動不動就說這個人不能判死，因為他有教化可能性。但是這個「教化可能性」沒有一個標準嘛！到目前為止還是看不到一個標準，很多時候你把他推給醫生或是什麼心理師評斷，結果現在發生了一個狀況，只要在審理期間你是比較會表演的人，那就沒事情了，那就永遠不可能判死。副秘，請問一下「教化可能性」有沒有一定的標準？"],["王副秘書長梅英：首先報告委員，這裡通常大家所說的教化可能性，它其實是在刑法第五十七條有關於量刑因子中，是就他相關的一些背景跟犯後態度整個做一個綜合評價。目前司法院也希望把這些量刑，不管是在程序上，或者是實質的標準，就是儘量建置結構。這部分我們是不是可以請刑事廳廳長進一步說明，還是用書面？"],["吳委員宗憲：這個部分你提供書面給我好了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為我還是認為「教化可能性」這句話，目前還沒有辦法找到很詳細的一個標準。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，因為我們對於判決死刑的部分，現在是被告行為時要有識別能力，就審時也要、執行時也要，其實這些條件加一加，我覺得目前確實我國的死刑在判決跟執行上面，已經變成幾乎是不可能的一件事情。我們都走過實務，其實被告來開庭的時候一定是最乖的啦！不管他在外面多壞，他來開庭的時候，永遠都表現出一副非常乖，而且非常孝順的樣子嘛！"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以人家說，全臺灣孝順的人密度最高的地方其實是在法院，因為每個人來都說你不能關我，我要回家孝順父母。所以會不會法庭變成大家爭相演戲的地方？我只要演得好，我就不會被判死刑，是不是會有這個可能性？副秘。"],["王副秘書長梅英：跟委員報告，剛才委員提到的，考量他的精神狀況，必須是在一個行為時點，還有一個是判決的時候，此外有一個是執行的時候，事實上它都有客觀的標準，跟所謂的法庭演戲，我想這個可能就是，它是可以去檢驗的，法官也會進一步審酌。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！那沒關係，這樣子，因為最近有很多實務案例、法官的判決，他判決的內容當然我們是尊重，但有一些我覺得已經到幾乎是不合理的程度了。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：譬如馬國女大生被殺的那個案子，其實判決裡面有提到，他認為被告犯下本案之後，對於社會規範、行為常模等相關概念都已經加以思考，並且已經歸納、內化了，所以他可能會有教化的可能性等等的，像這一類的論述變成是……我個人的感覺，其實看完那個判決我有一個感覺，我覺得這個社會上有兩種人不會被判死刑、絕對不會被判，第一個是演員，第二個是政客。因為這兩種人每天都在演戲，所以這兩種人永遠都不會被判死刑，他演戲是演到很厲害的，所以永遠都有教化可能性，我個人是覺得有這個狀況。","剛剛我在做提案說明的時候有提到，無期徒刑的假釋，從102到111年平均只要17.9年的時間就可以假釋，關17.9年就可以出來了，這真的很低。我想社會大眾如果知道這個數據，其實是不太能接受的。","最後，副秘，我看過你們的報告，對於無期徒刑分級你們是認同嘛！只是你們覺得，是不是應該反映在分則各個條文裡面，讓法官能夠有所依循？我想你們的主軸是這樣，對不對？"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，還有在什麼時候適用，因為它的法律效果既然不一樣，它應該更明確地……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我懂，至少副秘是認同無期徒刑分級。","部長，請問一下你認同無期徒刑應該要分級嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們尊重委員的提案，我想這要做一個配套，我在報告中有講，因為這還有要對應分則的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。最後我跟副秘說明一下，我很謝謝你們對於無期徒刑分級是支持的。至於要不要放在個別個案、各個犯罪罪名下面去做，我個人的見解是不用，應該讓法官有一個裁量權，所以是設在總則裡面，總則裡面無期徒刑就已經有分級，至於分則或法官在下判決的時候就特定罪名，他要選擇總則的無期徒刑裡面的哪一個，我覺得這個是交由法官，尊重他個案審理的裁量權。所以我才會認為，沒有必要把分級的哪一級直接掛在特定的罪名之下。這是我個人對於這個提案心中的想法，這部分我知道跟司法院不一樣，但是我想這部分就很謝謝司法院給我們的建議，謝謝法務給我們的建議。","部長，我跟你講，我剛剛講到院長那部分，你也不用再多做說明了，如果部長覺得我講的話有問題，部長也可以去了解一下一個法律三讀通過後，其實它在被宣告違憲之前就是一個有效的法律，人民都要遵守，各機關也要遵守。第二個，即便你聲請釋憲、即便你聲請暫時處分，但是在法官還沒有下裁定、判決之前，其實它就是一個有效的法律，全國人民都必須遵守，絕對不存在我去聲請釋憲或聲請暫時處分，就可以不執行或等釋憲出來再執行。總統及院長的這句話，其實會被法律學者笑的、會被法官笑的。我再跟各位報告，院長跟總統這句話的論述是不對的，更何況所謂的編列預算就叫做執行，法律通過的東西就像編列預算的這個動作，就叫做執行。所以你去聲請釋憲或暫時處分，不能夠暫停執行。好，沒關係，部長，你有興趣就再回去研究一下啦！但是我是覺得法律不能胡亂解釋，尤其是位居總統及院長這麼高位階的人，更不應該誤導全國人民去亂說話，謝謝各位。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：下一位請王義川委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}