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229.346, \"text\": \"因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 202.452, \"end\": 202.732, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 202.732, \"end\": 202.872, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 202.872, \"end\": 203.232, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 203.232, \"end\": 203.433, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 203.433, \"end\": 204.293, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"際\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 204.293, \"end\": 204.733, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"約\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 204.733, \"end\": 205.434, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 205.434, \"end\": 205.654, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 205.654, \"end\": 205.894, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 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635.572, \"end\": 635.692, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 635.692, \"end\": 635.852, \"score\": 0.659}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 635.852, \"end\": 636.892, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 636.892, \"end\": 637.073, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 637.073, \"end\": 637.153, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 637.153, \"end\": 637.493, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 637.493, \"end\": 637.633, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 637.633, \"end\": 637.753, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 637.753, \"end\": 637.893, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 637.893, \"end\": 638.053, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 638.053, \"end\": 638.193, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 638.193, \"end\": 638.353, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 638.353, \"end\": 638.573, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 638.573, \"end\": 638.813, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 638.813, \"end\": 638.994, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 638.994, \"end\": 639.094, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 639.094, \"end\": 639.214, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 639.214, \"end\": 639.234, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 639.234, \"end\": 639.454, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"蛤\", \"start\": 639.454, \"end\": 640.214, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 640.214, \"end\": 640.694, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 640.694, \"end\": 641.255, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 641.255, \"end\": 641.535, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 641.535, \"end\": 641.995, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 641.995, \"end\": 642.375, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 642.375, \"end\": 642.495, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 642.495, \"end\": 642.675, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 642.675, \"end\": 642.996, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 642.996, \"end\": 643.456, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 643.456, \"end\": 643.576, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 643.576, \"end\": 643.656, \"score\": 0.434}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 643.656, \"end\": 644.396, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 644.396, \"end\": 644.516, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 644.516, \"end\": 644.596, \"score\": 0.727}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 644.596, \"end\": 644.616, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,377 --> 00:00:14,978\n好主席我們請法務部部長好麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣這法官在判的時候\n\n2\n00:00:39,386 --> 00:01:00,634\n直接判說我現在判你這個罪但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說我判你這個罪判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級二級三級那你如果要假釋有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋大概是這樣那這個責任\n\n3\n00:01:03,157 --> 00:01:31,342\n就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論\n\n4\n00:01:34,096 --> 00:01:47,424\n那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法\n\n5\n00:01:48,345 --> 00:01:54,070\n對可以啊用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的\n\n6\n00:02:13,027 --> 00:02:42,687\n那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求\n\n7\n00:02:43,727 --> 00:02:58,156\n我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎\n\n8\n00:03:01,857 --> 00:03:21,892\n開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的\n\n9\n00:03:22,452 --> 00:03:49,346\n因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得\n\n10\n00:03:50,146 --> 00:04:01,910\n但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊最少也把他拐到死是會有這種講法嘛是就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了太可惡了但是呢因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢我就不給他出來啦我就這樣這種的太可惡了不給他出來所以鄭部長這個\n\n11\n00:04:20,370 --> 00:04:44,111\n請問一下你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭大概有哪些類型\n\n12\n00:04:45,171 --> 00:05:00,238\n就是行政院啊法務部啊或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁大概現在大概\n\n13\n00:05:01,258 --> 00:05:19,817\n最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期\n\n14\n00:05:20,137 --> 00:05:38,570\n被判無期徒刑這個也不能假設好這是你們的看法啦對因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說哇這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個虐童這個坑喔那也許虐童他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童可是大家看到那個影片啦哇這些哪有這麼坑喔\n\n15\n00:05:50,114 --> 00:06:10,405\n那對這個小朋友的身心啊都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些這種就不要給他假釋給他關起來\n\n16\n00:06:11,738 --> 00:06:32,145\n那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分\n\n17\n00:06:32,945 --> 00:06:46,954\n這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說哇這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來\n\n18\n00:06:54,036 --> 00:07:04,724\n這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中\n\n19\n00:07:11,329 --> 00:07:15,154\n我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭\n\n20\n00:07:30,412 --> 00:07:42,191\n也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說\n\n21\n00:07:44,337 --> 00:08:10,972\n請這個法官的團體啦檢察官的團體啦校政署啦還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會大家再來討論一下看說到底哪一些啦應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級二級三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級二級三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁這有風險\n\n22\n00:08:14,132 --> 00:08:39,411\n什麼風險呢就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉社會認為很可惡很可惡判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三尤其一開始的時候\n\n23\n00:08:40,373 --> 00:08:45,260\n還沒有其他的判例的時候123剛開始的時候那一開始的法官我看腦膜在燒啦所以這個副理事長有什麼要補充\n\n24\n00:08:51,448 --> 00:09:10,321\n委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測\n\n25\n00:09:13,983 --> 00:09:30,317\n事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情\n\n26\n00:09:35,086 --> 00:09:40,829\n那社會就要討論那這個制度參與的機制是什麼參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦這個案大家討論把這一些事情我是建議召委啦再開一個法社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦故意殺人殺人未遂\n\n27\n00:10:04,119 --> 00:10:19,014\n可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定\n\n28\n00:10:19,844 --> 00:10:44,616\n那法官的團體法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院立法完了之後大家說蛤現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦好那我就直言到這裡謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11377\t14978\t好 主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好 部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣 這法官在判的時候\n39386\t60634\t直接判說 我現在判你這個罪 但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說 我判你這個罪 判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級 二級 三級那你如果要假釋 有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋 大概是這樣那這個責任\n63157\t91342\t就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論\n94096\t107424\t那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法\n108345\t114070\t對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢 它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的\n133027\t162687\t那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求\n163727\t178156\t我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎\n181857\t201892\t開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的\n202452\t229346\t因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得\n230146\t241910\t但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說 啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊 最少也把他拐到死是 會有這種講法嘛是 就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了 太可惡了但是呢 因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢 我就不給他出來啦我就這樣 這種的太可惡了不給他出來 所以 鄭部長這個\n260370\t284111\t請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋 不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭 你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭 大概有哪些類型\n285171\t300238\t就是行政院啊 法務部啊 或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊 就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁 大概現在 大概\n301258\t319817\t最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期\n320137\t338570\t被判無期徒刑 這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法啦對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分 我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說 哇 這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個 虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童 他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童 可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些 哪有這麼坑喔\n350114\t370405\t那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩 最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種就不要給他假釋 給他關起來\n371738\t392145\t那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分\n392945\t406954\t這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分 天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說 哇 這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來\n414036\t424724\t這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中\n431329\t435154\t我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭\n450412\t462191\t也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說\n464337\t490972\t請這個法官的團體啦 檢察官的團體啦 校政署啦 還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會 大家再來討論一下 看說到底哪一些啦 應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級 二級 三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級 二級 三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁 這有風險\n494132\t519411\t什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候\n520373\t525260\t還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充\n531448\t550321\t委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測\n553983\t570317\t事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級 下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情\n575086\t580829\t那社會就要討論 那這個制度參與的機制是什麼 參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論 好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦 這個案大家討論 把這一些事情我是建議召委啦 再開一個法 社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦 故意殺人 殺人未遂\n604119\t619014\t可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定\n619844\t644616\t那法官的團體 法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝\n","txt":"好 主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好 部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣 這法官在判的時候\n直接判說 我現在判你這個罪 但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說 我判你這個罪 判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級 二級 三級那你如果要假釋 有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋 大概是這樣那這個責任\n就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論\n那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法\n對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢 它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的\n那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求\n我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎\n開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的\n因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得\n但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說 啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊 最少也把他拐到死是 會有這種講法嘛是 就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了 太可惡了但是呢 因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢 我就不給他出來啦我就這樣 這種的太可惡了不給他出來 所以 鄭部長這個\n請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋 不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭 你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭 大概有哪些類型\n就是行政院啊 法務部啊 或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊 就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁 大概現在 大概\n最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期\n被判無期徒刑 這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法啦對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分 我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說 哇 這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個 虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童 他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童 可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些 哪有這麼坑喔\n那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩 最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種就不要給他假釋 給他關起來\n那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分\n這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分 天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說 哇 這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來\n這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中\n我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭\n也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說\n請這個法官的團體啦 檢察官的團體啦 校政署啦 還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會 大家再來討論一下 看說到底哪一些啦 應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級 二級 三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級 二級 三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁 這有風險\n什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候\n還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充\n委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測\n事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級 下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情\n那社會就要討論 那這個制度參與的機制是什麼 參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論 好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦 這個案大家討論 把這一些事情我是建議召委啦 再開一個法 社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦 故意殺人 殺人未遂\n可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定\n那法官的團體 法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.377 --> 00:14.978\n好主席我們請法務部部長好麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣這法官在判的時候\n\n00:39.386 --> 01:00.634\n直接判說我現在判你這個罪但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說我判你這個罪判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級二級三級那你如果要假釋有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋大概是這樣那這個責任\n\n01:03.157 --> 01:31.342\n就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論\n\n01:34.096 --> 01:47.424\n那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法\n\n01:48.345 --> 01:54.070\n對可以啊用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的\n\n02:13.027 --> 02:42.687\n那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求\n\n02:43.727 --> 02:58.156\n我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎\n\n03:01.857 --> 03:21.892\n開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的\n\n03:22.452 --> 03:49.346\n因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得\n\n03:50.146 --> 04:01.910\n但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊最少也把他拐到死是會有這種講法嘛是就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了太可惡了但是呢因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢我就不給他出來啦我就這樣這種的太可惡了不給他出來所以鄭部長這個\n\n04:20.370 --> 04:44.111\n請問一下你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭大概有哪些類型\n\n04:45.171 --> 05:00.238\n就是行政院啊法務部啊或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁大概現在大概\n\n05:01.258 --> 05:19.817\n最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期\n\n05:20.137 --> 05:38.570\n被判無期徒刑這個也不能假設好這是你們的看法啦對因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說哇這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個虐童這個坑喔那也許虐童他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童可是大家看到那個影片啦哇這些哪有這麼坑喔\n\n05:50.114 --> 06:10.405\n那對這個小朋友的身心啊都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些這種就不要給他假釋給他關起來\n\n06:11.738 --> 06:32.145\n那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分\n\n06:32.945 --> 06:46.954\n這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說哇這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來\n\n06:54.036 --> 07:04.724\n這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中\n\n07:11.329 --> 07:15.154\n我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭\n\n07:30.412 --> 07:42.191\n也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說\n\n07:44.337 --> 08:10.972\n請這個法官的團體啦檢察官的團體啦校政署啦還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會大家再來討論一下看說到底哪一些啦應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級二級三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級二級三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁這有風險\n\n08:14.132 --> 08:39.411\n什麼風險呢就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉社會認為很可惡很可惡判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三尤其一開始的時候\n\n08:40.373 --> 08:45.260\n還沒有其他的判例的時候123剛開始的時候那一開始的法官我看腦膜在燒啦所以這個副理事長有什麼要補充\n\n08:51.448 --> 09:10.321\n委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測\n\n09:13.983 --> 09:30.317\n事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情\n\n09:35.086 --> 09:40.829\n那社會就要討論那這個制度參與的機制是什麼參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦這個案大家討論把這一些事情我是建議召委啦再開一個法社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦故意殺人殺人未遂\n\n10:04.119 --> 10:19.014\n可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定\n\n10:19.844 --> 10:44.616\n那法官的團體法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院立法完了之後大家說蛤現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦好那我就直言到這裡謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.377,"end":14.978,"text":"好 主席我們請法務部部長好 麻煩部長我們請委員會司法院副秘書長一起麻煩副秘書長好 部長跟副秘書長我們今天討論的這個案子最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由這個法官來決定白話文是這樣 這法官在判的時候"},{"start":39.386,"end":60.634,"text":"直接判說 我現在判你這個罪 但是你不得假釋或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案就是說 我判你這個罪 判你無期徒刑但是你是屬於一級 二級 三級那你如果要假釋 有一種叫不能假釋有一種叫做關幾年就可以假釋 大概是這樣那這個責任"},{"start":63.157,"end":91.342,"text":"就會到法官的手上剛剛這個吳宗憲委員也提到說那一二三級他不想要把他定位是哪一種犯哪一種罪行這個由法官來做裁量我先問一下這個副秘書長這個法官在這個司法院裡頭對於這個吳委員的提案現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案目前大概有什麼樣的討論"},{"start":94.096,"end":107.424,"text":"那個謝謝委員關心因為我們司法院我們沒有去徵詢個別法官那個意見所以我沒有辦法那個代表那個法官來回應那不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法"},{"start":108.345,"end":114.07,"text":"對 可以啊 用你們院的看法也可以當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平正義實踐的考量所以提出了這個修法那現行法呢 它是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋那這個是不是過短我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的"},{"start":133.027,"end":162.687,"text":"那但是就是說第一個就是說把它分成那個三級之後呢因為他那個後面的那個法律效果你是到第一級永遠都不能假釋那其他的是可以25年假釋這個法律效果會差非常多那如果說全部委由那個法官來那個裁量的話他會變這個裁量空間的要件這個明確性太過抽象了所以說這個明確性的那個要求"},{"start":163.727,"end":178.156,"text":"我們是建議說在這個地方如果說是這樣分級的話他必須要就是如果這個題目啊大家來開個公聽會討論那請一些法官啊來表示意見這個副秘書長你覺得適合嗎"},{"start":181.857,"end":201.892,"text":"開公聽會就是讓法官還有法官以外的就大家專家學者來討論我覺得當然是那個非常好的一個事情那這個部分我們當然是尊重因為是刑法嘛我們尊重那個主責機關還有那個大院的權限那可是我在這裡呢就是還有幾個議題我想是我們可以建議就是一起思考的"},{"start":202.452,"end":229.346,"text":"因為就是說像那個國際公約呢像那個公正公約第七條還有那個歐洲人權公約第三條他們都有那個禁止酷刑處遇的一個規範啊那在國際間也討論很多就是說如果有一個處遇呢他是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話那這邊就是他到底有沒有就是這個酷刑的這樣一個議題那我想這都是值得"},{"start":230.146,"end":241.91,"text":"但是就是說這個社會上啊總是覺得說 啊現在都不能判私刑啊不能判私刑啊 最少也把他拐到死是 會有這種講法嘛是 就不能把他判私刑啊最少也把他拐到都不能給出來太可惡了 太可惡了但是呢 因為你剝奪他的生命權在這個國際上有討論但是呢 我就不給他出來啦我就這樣 這種的太可惡了不給他出來 所以 鄭部長這個"},{"start":260.37,"end":284.111,"text":"請問一下 你剛有提到行政院也最後在討論哪一些最後就是他申請假釋 不適用假釋的規定在你的報告裡頭 你也提到了包括故意殺人或殺人未遂可不可以跟大家講一下在行政院的這個草案裡頭 大概有哪些類型"},{"start":285.171,"end":300.238,"text":"就是行政院啊 法務部啊 或者已經會這個司法院大家討論完大概哪一些啊 就是不得適用假釋的這個相關規定可不可以跟大家講一下我們有統計齁 大概現在 大概"},{"start":301.258,"end":319.817,"text":"最主要限縮在那個故意殺人跟殺人未遂被判死刑無期徒刑都十年以上有期處置的罪齁我們是不適用假釋的規定就只有這些啥這個比較重要另外一個就是已經判死刑判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了齁被撤銷後再再犯無期"},{"start":320.137,"end":338.57,"text":"被判無期徒刑 這個也不能假設好 這是你們的看法啦對 因為跟委員報告因為這些是屬於特殊重大的暴力性犯罪那如果說一般的販毒的話我們認為這部分 我知道用這樣的話就太...但是就是說對社會啦對台灣社會來講啦我都說 哇 這個實在是有坑喔譬如說這個 虐童 這個坑喔那也許虐童 他也沒有虐童至死但是虐童 可是大家看到那個影片啦哇 這些 哪有這麼坑喔"},{"start":350.114,"end":370.405,"text":"那對這個小朋友的身心啊 都終身可能造成很大的影響啊這種不可以保護小孩 最重要是把他關起來就是會有這樣的一個 一個社會的講法啦所以到底哪一些 就是說在法務部認定上就哪一些 這種就不要給他假釋 給他關起來"},{"start":371.738,"end":392.145,"text":"那這種事情不用討論嗎部長因為這個是一個知識體大當然如果說就是在開公聽會給學者專家來做一個更周延的討論那我想這個是對我們修法會更精準那剛才委員有提到像內統的這部分"},{"start":392.945,"end":406.954,"text":"這本來我們是認為這就是本來就包括在這個裡面因為的確是人審公分一定是人審公分 天理難容的這種罪我們認為才不需要不適用假釋的規定現在就是說人審公分大家看電視說 哇 這很空喔過了幾年之後判下來"},{"start":414.036,"end":424.724,"text":"這個怕無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋這樣才有天理大家會有這種討論啦所以我是建議這樣啦因為這個修法過程喔剛才蔣介石委員也說我們經歷經過你們大英到現在我看有沒有要一年啦這個過程中"},{"start":431.329,"end":435.154,"text":"我相信你們進行了很多的討論但是社會也沒看到你們在討論社會也沒參加討論你快說人神共憤嘛總是社會有期待 社會有想法可是在這個刑法的整體的包括這種量刑的考量上總是不能過頭"},{"start":450.412,"end":462.191,"text":"也不能說這個輕的硬要用重的重的相對就變成不重了這樣的一個概念所以這事情我是建議包括我們的召委這案我是建議說"},{"start":464.337,"end":490.972,"text":"請這個法官的團體啦 檢察官的團體啦 校政署啦 還有一些學者還有一些被害人的家屬啦社會 大家再來討論一下 看說到底哪一些啦 應該列入最剛才這個吳宗憲委員講的這一級 二級 三級啦我覺得這樣才有這個我為什麼特別提這個吳委員的這個一級 二級 三級喔這個法官那麼大的權力齁 這有風險"},{"start":494.132,"end":519.411,"text":"什麼風險呢 就是說社會認為這個判無期徒刑可是也沒有這麼可惡結果這個法官說 我就認為他很可惡我就把他判一級了阿偉 社會認為很可惡很可惡 判他無期徒刑結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級了這個法官壓力很大因為這種一二三 尤其一開始的時候"},{"start":520.373,"end":525.26,"text":"還沒有其他的判例的時候 1 2 3剛開始的時候那一開始的法官 我看 腦膜在燒啦所以這個 副理事長有什麼要補充"},{"start":531.448,"end":550.321,"text":"委員就這個部分就是司法院是比較建議說是在那個事後的無期徒刑在事後的時候在執行的時候這這個時候建立一個審查制就說他能不能那個假釋啊不是在宣判那時候因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測"},{"start":553.983,"end":570.317,"text":"事後現在要申請假釋都人在處理嘛就是說什麼可能有一些弊端嘛剛才委員說嘛所以你若是司法院認為說這後面他先把破無期徒刑後面他是說什麼像吳宗憲文說一級二級三級這都分級 下來還有一個制度要來決定這件事情"},{"start":575.086,"end":580.829,"text":"那社會就要討論 那這個制度參與的機制是什麼 參與的人是什麼這個也可以討論 好不好這就是司法院把事情塞給這個委員會啦所以我是覺得這樣啦 這個案大家討論 把這一些事情我是建議召委啦 再開一個法 社會有共識要不然法務部跟我們說這幾種的啦 故意殺人 殺人未遂"},{"start":604.119,"end":619.014,"text":"可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的很可惡的那如果要放到吳宗憲召委的這個什麼一二三級裡面要呼也可以大家是把這個配置一下大家來討論或者是不要配置最後要由法官自己來決定"},{"start":619.844,"end":644.616,"text":"那法官的團體 法官應該你如果什麼協會嘛 你們總是來表達說我這個我打不去 還是怎麼樣我覺得大家要有共識 或者包括法務部將近這個一年我們在省下差不多一年的討論 社會不知道要不要走到哪裡到最後這個包括立法院 立法完了之後大家說 蛤 現在該這樣喔我覺得這樣也不好啦 好 那我就直言到這裡 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":493,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時3分）主席，我們請法務部部長。"],["主席：好，麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["王委員義川：請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩副秘書長，謝謝。"],["王委員義川：部長跟副秘書長，我們今天討論的這個案子，最主要是假釋這件事情可不可以由法官來決定？白話文是這樣，法官在判的時候直接判說，我現在判你這個罪，但是你不得假釋，或者按照吳宗憲委員的提案，就是我判你這個罪無期徒刑，但是你是屬於一級、二級、三級，如果你要假釋，有一種叫不能假釋，有一種叫關幾年就可以假釋，大概是這樣。那這個責任就會到法官的手上，剛剛吳宗憲委員也提到，他不想要去定位一、二、三級是犯哪一種罪刑，這由法官來裁量。我先問副秘書長，對於吳委員的提案，現在司法院的法官看到這樣的提案，目前大概有什麼樣的討論？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員關心，因為司法院沒有去徵詢個別法官的意見，所以我沒有辦法代表法官回應。不知道委員要不要我們提出司法院的看法？"],["王委員義川：可以啊！用你們院的看法也可以。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是，當然我們很感佩委員們對於公平、正義、實踐的考量，所以提出了這個修法。現行法是規定無期徒刑要執行超過25年才可以開始假釋，這個是不是過短？我覺得這個立法政策確實是可以討論的，但是第一個，把無期徒刑分成3級之後，因為它後面的法律效果，是到了第一級永遠都不能假釋；其他的可以滿25年假釋，這個法律效果會差非常多，如果全部委由法官來裁量的話，會變成這個裁量空間的要件太過抽象了，所以我們是建議適用明確性的要求，這個地方如果要這樣分級的話，必須要……"],["王委員義川：如果這個題目大家來開個公聽會討論，請一些法官表示意見，副秘書長，你覺得適合嗎？"],["王副秘書長梅英：開公聽會，就是讓法官還有法官以外的專家學者大家來討論，我覺得當然是非常好的事情，這部分我們當然是尊重，因為是刑法，我們尊重主責機關還有大院的權限，可是我在這裡還有幾個議題，我們建議可以一起思考的，因為像公民與政治權利國際公約（公政公約）第七條，還有歐洲人權公約第三條都有禁止酷刑處遇的規範，在國際間也討論很多，就是如果有一個處遇是終身監禁完全不得假釋的話，到底有沒有酷刑的議題？我想這都是值得……"],["王委員義川：我懂，但是社會上總是覺得現在都不能判死刑，不能判死刑至少也要把他關到死，會有這種講法。"],["王副秘書長梅英：是。"],["王委員義川：不能把他判死刑，至少也把他關到都不能讓他出來，這太可惡了！你剝奪他的生命權，在國際上有討論，但是因為這種人太可惡了，我就不讓他出來。鄭部長，你剛剛有提到行政院也在討論，最後哪一些是聲請假釋但不適用假釋的規定，在你的報告裡頭也提到包括故意殺人或殺人未遂者。可不可以跟大家講一下，現在行政院草案裡大概有哪些類型，就是行政院、法務部或會同司法院，大家討論完大概哪一些不得適用假釋的相關規定，可不可以跟大家講一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們有統計，大概最主要是限縮在故意殺人跟殺人未遂者，被判死刑、無期徒刑、10年以上有期徒刑這些罪不適用假釋的規定。"],["王委員義川：就只有這些？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這是比較主要的。另外，已經判無期徒刑後來被撤銷了，被撤銷再被判無期徒刑，這個也不能假釋。"],["王委員義川：這是你們的看法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，跟委員報告，因為這些是屬於特殊重大暴力型犯罪，如果說一般販毒的話，我們認為這部分用這樣的話就太……"],["王委員義川：我知道，但是對臺灣社會來說，我覺得這個人實在有夠可惡，譬如虐童，這個人可惡，也許他也沒有虐童致死，可是大家看到虐童影片，就說：哇！怎麼這麼可惡，對小朋友的身心終身都可能造成很大的影響，這種人不能給他判死刑，最好給他關到死，社會就是會有這樣的講法啦！所以在法務部認定上哪一種不適用假釋，要把他關起來，這種事情不用討論嗎？部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為茲事體大，當然如果再開公聽會，給學者專家做一個更周延的討論，我想會讓修法更精準。剛剛委員有提到像虐童的部分，我們本來就認為有包括在這裡面，因為的確是人神共憤，一定是人神共憤、天理難容的這種罪，我們才不適用假釋的規定。"],["王委員義川：對啊！現在就是人神共憤，就像現在大家看電視說：哇！這麼可惡，結果過幾年之後判下來，大家又說被判無期徒刑隨時都可以假釋，這樣有天理嗎？大家會有這種討論啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員義川：所以我是建議，這個修法過程剛剛很多委員也說，經過你們答應到現在也快一年了啦！這個過程中我相信你們進行了很多的討論，但是社會也沒看到你們在討論，社會也沒參加討論，你既然說人神共憤，總是社會有期待、社會有想法，可是在整體刑法包括量刑的考量上，總是不能過頭，也不能輕的硬要判重的，重的相對就變成不重了，這樣的一個概念啦！所以這件事情我是建議，包括我們的召委，這案請法官的團體、檢察官的團體、矯正署，還有一些學者、被害人的家屬，大家再來討論一下，看到底哪一些應該列入剛剛吳宗憲委員說的一級、二級、三級。","我為什麼特別提吳委員的這一級、二級、三級？法官有那麼大的權力，這會有風險，什麼風險呢？社會認為這個人被判無期徒刑，可是他也沒有這麼可惡，結果法官說，我認為他很可惡，我就給他判一級；有的社會認為很可惡，應該判他無期徒刑，結果法官最後宣判的時候說這算三級，這樣法官壓力很大，因為這種一、二、三級，尤其一開始還沒有什麼其他的判例，一、二、三級剛開始的時候法官應該頭也很痛。副秘書長有什麼要補充？"],["王副秘書長梅英：委員，就這個部分，司法院比較建議無期徒刑在事後執行的時候建立一個審查制，就是說他能不能假釋……"],["王委員義川：現在審查制就是說……"],["王副秘書長梅英：不是在宣判那時候，因為宣判那時候法官確實很難預測……"],["王委員義川：沒有，剛才就有委員說，現在事後要聲請假釋都是人在處理，可能有一些弊端，所以如果司法院認為先把他判無期徒刑，後面像吳宗憲委員說的一級、二級、三級這樣分級下來，還有一個制度要決定這件事情，那社會就要討論這個制度參與的機制是什麼？參與的人是什麼？這個也可以討論，可是這就是司法院把事情又推給委員會。所以我覺得這個案子大家討論，這一些事情我是建議召委再開一次會，等社會有共識，不然法務部只說故意殺人、殺人未遂這幾種，可是社會可能認為有一些更可惡的、很可惡的，如果要放到吳宗憲召委的一、二、三級裡面，若要分也可以，大家把這個配置一下、大家來討論，或者是不要配置，最後要由法官自己來決定，法官的團體，法官應該有什麼協會，你們會表達你們承擔不起或是怎麼樣。我覺得大家要有共識，否則包括法務部將近一年，這樣算起來差不多一年的討論，社會不知道到最後走到哪裡，到最後立法院立法完了之後，大家可能會說現在改成這樣？我覺得這樣也不好。我就質詢到這裡，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。這個部分，我們再來思考一下，謝謝。副秘剛剛講到可不可以假釋很難預測，那一樣啊，你們的個案法官用有沒有教化可能性、能不能判死刑也都是在預測啦！","下一位請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}