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\"之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 75.094, \"end\": 75.374, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 75.374, \"end\": 75.594, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 75.594, \"end\": 76.175, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 76.175, \"end\": 76.315, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 76.315, \"end\": 76.475, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 76.475, \"end\": 76.595, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 76.595, \"end\": 76.835, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 76.835, \"end\": 77.056, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 77.056, \"end\": 77.236, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 77.236, \"end\": 77.336, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 77.336, \"end\": 79.257, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 79.257, 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{\"word\": \"殺\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 812.859, \"end\": 812.979, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 812.979, \"end\": 813.159, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"遂\", \"start\": 813.159, \"end\": 813.439, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 813.439, \"end\": 813.939, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 813.939, \"end\": 814.32, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 814.32, \"end\": 814.5, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 814.5, \"end\": 814.66, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 814.66, \"end\": 814.78, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 814.78, \"end\": 814.92, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"徒\", \"start\": 814.92, \"end\": 815.08, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"刑\", \"start\": 815.08, \"end\": 815.24, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 815.24, \"end\": 815.36, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"死\", \"start\": 815.36, \"end\": 815.461, 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00:01:14,134\n那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在\n\n4\n00:01:15,094 --> 00:01:31,187\n之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人\n\n5\n00:01:31,727 --> 00:01:55,570\n那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿\n\n6\n00:01:56,591 --> 00:02:15,343\n那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案\n\n7\n00:02:16,503 --> 00:02:43,833\n當時呢這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說\n\n8\n00:02:44,893 --> 00:03:05,702\n不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見\n\n9\n00:03:08,933 --> 00:03:30,031\n謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的\n\n10\n00:03:33,434 --> 00:03:47,712\n所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話\n\n11\n00:03:49,694 --> 00:04:04,704\n那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話\n\n12\n00:04:07,646 --> 00:04:29,113\n那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的\n\n13\n00:04:29,813 --> 00:04:46,289\n這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好\n\n14\n00:04:49,778 --> 00:05:04,473\n因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容\n\n15\n00:05:06,115 --> 00:05:14,343\n他說目前我們來看目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅偽造變造證據就所謂的滅證對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證\n\n16\n00:05:21,309 --> 00:05:40,707\n所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別\n\n17\n00:05:44,185 --> 00:06:02,895\n那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪\n\n18\n00:06:04,035 --> 00:06:31,814\n這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論\n\n19\n00:06:33,855 --> 00:06:53,385\n那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為\n\n20\n00:06:54,825 --> 00:07:20,897\n積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症\n\n21\n00:07:21,577 --> 00:07:47,504\n魅症如果留著那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃\n\n22\n00:07:48,880 --> 00:08:11,651\n這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能\n\n23\n00:08:12,151 --> 00:08:34,144\n所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉\n\n24\n00:08:35,335 --> 00:08:54,346\n謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防\n\n25\n00:08:54,986 --> 00:09:17,431\n那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性羈押的理由羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護那是非常的周延的他可以請律師有公防有開庭另外即使他被羈押他還可以抗告\n\n26\n00:09:18,191 --> 00:09:39,540\n那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的\n\n27\n00:09:47,083 --> 00:10:06,225\n所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的\n\n28\n00:10:06,906 --> 00:10:36,486\n所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是\n\n29\n00:10:37,587 --> 00:10:56,720\n目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險\n\n30\n00:10:58,693 --> 00:11:03,456\n唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察\n\n31\n00:11:14,324 --> 00:11:35,199\n除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級\n\n32\n00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:55,508\n左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在\n\n33\n00:11:57,489 --> 00:12:13,643\n提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行\n\n34\n00:12:17,326 --> 00:12:38,541\n讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見\n\n35\n00:12:40,395 --> 00:13:08,801\n謝謝委員我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫\n\n36\n00:13:09,441 --> 00:13:37,702\n那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍\n\n37\n00:13:38,897 --> 00:13:59,534\n所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題\n\n38\n00:14:00,475 --> 00:14:26,466\n它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難\n\n39\n00:14:27,847 --> 00:14:52,503\n標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結\n\n40\n00:14:53,724 --> 00:15:20,649\n真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人\n\n41\n00:15:21,149 --> 00:15:40,805\n的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3507\t6809\t好 謝謝主席 有請法務部長 謝謝 麻煩部長委員好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦 公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下 主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候 當時的主席\n26741\t46568\t吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神\n47228\t74134\t那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在\n75094\t91187\t之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人\n91727\t115570\t那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿\n116591\t135343\t那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案\n136503\t163833\t當時呢 這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感 還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說\n164893\t185702\t不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見\n188933\t210031\t謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的\n213434\t227712\t所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話\n229694\t244704\t那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話\n247646\t269113\t那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的\n269813\t286289\t這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好\n289778\t304473\t因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容\n306115\t314343\t他說目前我們來看 目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅 偽造 變造證據就所謂的滅證 對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證\n321309\t340707\t所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別\n344185\t362895\t那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪\n364035\t391814\t這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論\n393855\t413385\t那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為\n414825\t440897\t積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症\n441577\t467504\t魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃\n468880\t491651\t這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能\n492151\t514144\t所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉\n515335\t534346\t謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防\n534986\t557431\t那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性 羈押的理由 羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要 合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護 那是非常的周延的他可以請律師 有公防 有開庭另外 即使他被羈押 他還可以抗告\n558191\t579540\t那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的\n587083\t606225\t所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的\n606906\t636486\t所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是\n637587\t656720\t目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險\n658693\t663456\t唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察\n674324\t695199\t除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級\n696440\t715508\t左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在\n717489\t733643\t提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行\n737326\t758541\t讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見\n760395\t788801\t謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對 矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫\n789441\t817702\t那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍\n818897\t839534\t所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題\n840475\t866466\t它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難\n867847\t892503\t標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結\n893724\t920649\t真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人\n921149\t940805\t的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 有請法務部長 謝謝 麻煩部長委員好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦 公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下 主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候 當時的主席\n吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神\n那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在\n之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人\n那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿\n那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案\n當時呢 這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感 還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說\n不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見\n謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的\n所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話\n那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話\n那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的\n這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好\n因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容\n他說目前我們來看 目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅 偽造 變造證據就所謂的滅證 對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證\n所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別\n那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪\n這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論\n那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為\n積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症\n魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃\n這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能\n所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉\n謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防\n那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性 羈押的理由 羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要 合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護 那是非常的周延的他可以請律師 有公防 有開庭另外 即使他被羈押 他還可以抗告\n那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的\n所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的\n所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是\n目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險\n唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察\n除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級\n左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在\n提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行\n讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見\n謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對 矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫\n那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍\n所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題\n它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難\n標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結\n真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人\n的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.507 --> 00:06.809\n好謝謝主席有請法務部長謝謝麻煩部長委員好部長好謝謝主席我其實想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候當時的主席\n\n00:26.741 --> 00:46.568\n吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神\n\n00:47.228 --> 01:14.134\n那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在\n\n01:15.094 --> 01:31.187\n之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人\n\n01:31.727 --> 01:55.570\n那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿\n\n01:56.591 --> 02:15.343\n那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案\n\n02:16.503 --> 02:43.833\n當時呢這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說\n\n02:44.893 --> 03:05.702\n不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見\n\n03:08.933 --> 03:30.031\n謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的\n\n03:33.434 --> 03:47.712\n所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話\n\n03:49.694 --> 04:04.704\n那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話\n\n04:07.646 --> 04:29.113\n那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的\n\n04:29.813 --> 04:46.289\n這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好\n\n04:49.778 --> 05:04.473\n因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容\n\n05:06.115 --> 05:14.343\n他說目前我們來看目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅偽造變造證據就所謂的滅證對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證\n\n05:21.309 --> 05:40.707\n所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別\n\n05:44.185 --> 06:02.895\n那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪\n\n06:04.035 --> 06:31.814\n這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論\n\n06:33.855 --> 06:53.385\n那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為\n\n06:54.825 --> 07:20.897\n積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症\n\n07:21.577 --> 07:47.504\n魅症如果留著那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃\n\n07:48.880 --> 08:11.651\n這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能\n\n08:12.151 --> 08:34.144\n所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉\n\n08:35.335 --> 08:54.346\n謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防\n\n08:54.986 --> 09:17.431\n那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性羈押的理由羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護那是非常的周延的他可以請律師有公防有開庭另外即使他被羈押他還可以抗告\n\n09:18.191 --> 09:39.540\n那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的\n\n09:47.083 --> 10:06.225\n所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的\n\n10:06.906 --> 10:36.486\n所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是\n\n10:37.587 --> 10:56.720\n目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險\n\n10:58.693 --> 11:03.456\n唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察\n\n11:14.324 --> 11:35.199\n除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級\n\n11:36.440 --> 11:55.508\n左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在\n\n11:57.489 --> 12:13.643\n提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行\n\n12:17.326 --> 12:38.541\n讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見\n\n12:40.395 --> 13:08.801\n謝謝委員我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫\n\n13:09.441 --> 13:37.702\n那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍\n\n13:38.897 --> 13:59.534\n所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題\n\n14:00.475 --> 14:26.466\n它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難\n\n14:27.847 --> 14:52.503\n標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結\n\n14:53.724 --> 15:20.649\n真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人\n\n15:21.149 --> 15:40.805\n的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.507,"end":6.809,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請法務部長 謝謝 麻煩部長委員好 部長好 謝謝主席我其實想要先附和一下剛王玉川委員說的啦 公聽會我也認為應該要辦一下 主要的原因是我還記得上個禮拜我們在教文修這個AI基本法的黨團協商的時候 當時的主席"},{"start":26.741,"end":46.568,"text":"吳宗憲委員你也有在嘛你不是主席但是你有參與這個黨團協商的討論你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情大家對AI非常非常的關心所以你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去然後就把這個法案寫好寫滿基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦然後其實也違反了我們在立法的時候書寫文字的精神"},{"start":47.228,"end":74.134,"text":"那我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院這邊說法對於這個無期徒刑的調整或者是對於國人的期待我們確實要有所回應那我認為我們除了在條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛那你們那邊也還在等是不是有機會開公聽會啦這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議好不好那主席就請放在心裡頭謝謝主席好那接下來我想問部長關於除了剛剛這個講公聽會之外我想先回到第一個在"},{"start":75.094,"end":91.187,"text":"之前民眾黨有提出一個版本是要修這個篡政這個事情我想部長你應該已經有先做功課了也就是說篡政這個部分民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉就是所謂的勾篡共犯或者是證人"},{"start":91.727,"end":115.57,"text":"那當時這個提案一出爐之後呢現在是赴委的狀況但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議包含非常非常多擔心那包含他們提到說有台積電洩密案這三個工程師他有可能串證或者是電信詐騙的行為這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下呢就開始出去串證串好串滿"},{"start":116.591,"end":135.343,"text":"那我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子第一個是雞排妹御用律師涉辦詐團內鬼法官認為有勾串面證的可能性所以才准羈押進鑑這是第一個第二個右邊這個案子呢是連國民黨委員都非常關心的台中豐原五口的這個命案"},{"start":136.503,"end":163.833,"text":"當時呢 這個人確實就開始出去串證了那新聞報導也都出來了相關的那個手機的簡訊也都查到了所以我們其實真的很擔心如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉後續就社會實質上的大家會怎麼看這個事情民眾的觀感 還有民眾的擔心那當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞有一個正在審查中的案件那個律師被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官跟法官說"},{"start":164.893,"end":185.702,"text":"不是那個立法院要修法了嗎把這個串證從羈押要件拿掉可是明明我們立法院還在討論可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助他這個詐騙當事人而且是行為人喔提出這個申請所以我想要請部長回應一下你怎麼看這個事情那當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院啦可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解我們很想聽聽看你們的意見"},{"start":188.933,"end":210.031,"text":"謝謝委員的確知識體大因為這個篡政是一個我們羈押最核心的一個羈押理由因為如果說這個把它拿掉了這變成大篡政就譬如說委員剛剛有關鍵那個詐團甚至那個凱凱明那個劉氏姐妹那個是姐妹關係如果說沒有一個用篡政來做一個進展羈押的進展那這個凱凱明的決定是辦不成的"},{"start":213.434,"end":227.712,"text":"所以包括很多犯罪集團不但他這個如果說這個拿掉那整個一個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅恐嚇去干擾證人要麼就全部大串證要麼就是他不敢來做證或來說實話"},{"start":229.694,"end":244.704,"text":"那這個真的是嚴重危險我們整個案件的一個偵辦尤其像我們像那個那個整個一個詐欺的幾乎是以八九成的詐團是以八九成的一個比例去用篡政的理由當做羈押的那所以說我們認為這個知識題那更何況以國際來講的話"},{"start":247.646,"end":269.113,"text":"那個德國美國法國澳洲國際法院還有世界各國都是以篡政為當作羈押的理由因為不以篡政羈押的理由的話我們就沒辦法去做進展那我們那個詐團還有一些的命案還包括的洗錢等等的還虐捅的殺人的包括這些詐團這個律師的這一種的"},{"start":269.813,"end":286.289,"text":"這一種的這個是完全沒辦法去辦那我覺得這個是知識體大這個是嚴重危險如果拿掉會影響整個一個社會的一個安定那這個整個我無法去預想這樣的一個結果所以我想說如果說這樣的話那整個詐團整個要開香檳慶祝了好"},{"start":289.778,"end":304.473,"text":"因為我的見解也是這樣那我們來往下看但是我相信在這樣子的整個輿論的發燒之下我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解那我們來回到所謂刑訴法裡面我們來看這個提案的內容目前民眾黨團提案的內容"},{"start":306.115,"end":314.343,"text":"他說目前我們來看 目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅 偽造 變造證據就所謂的滅證 對不對或者是勾串共犯或證人就所謂的串證"},{"start":321.309,"end":340.707,"text":"所以一個是滅政一個是篡政所以就文藝上的解釋篡政是指對於人政的妨害而滅政是指對於物政的妨害我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的一個要件之一所以我也想問部長你怎麼告訴國人我們如何看待篡政跟滅政的區別"},{"start":344.185,"end":362.895,"text":"那個串證是人嘛對證人嘛我剛已經說是人那個人的證言人的證言最容易去做勾穿而且他有人情的壓力甚至因為迫於一些的恐嚇怎麼樣他不敢或者為了己身的利益他去做一個大串證就像一個集團性的一個犯罪這個串證罪"},{"start":364.035,"end":391.814,"text":"這個是必然的你不能期待他不串證所以他這個勾串證這個如果說給他修掉的話修掉了我相信這個我們詐團幾乎辦不成好那關於誤證就是所謂的滅證的部分那我們剛剛說如果我們可以看得出區別我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過就變成行為人可以串證因為不會被羈押可是卻不可以滅證所以我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方我認為立法院這邊真的還是要進行實質的討論"},{"start":393.855,"end":413.385,"text":"那但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性那目前我們辦公室的研究是說目前拒保、責負、限制駐居這些所謂的羈押替代手段就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的篡政行為"},{"start":414.825,"end":440.897,"text":"積壓的替代手段像交保的這部分像積壓的替代最主要的我們現在就是要防止他逃逆嘛因為我們人要押這個嫌犯要押最主要就是防止脫逃一個就保全證據嘛那另外我們剛才那個勾串那個是在保全證據的問題那個我們又都是用證據來認定犯罪事實嘛你證據如果勾串的話那真的沒辦法那剛才委員有提到那個魅症的那個問題魅症那時如果魅症"},{"start":441.577,"end":467.504,"text":"魅症如果留著 那個勾串反而是把它刪掉這個是一個非常奇怪的一個做法對一個案件的偵辦以及對追緝這些犯罪的這些詐團團體性的犯罪甚至他個人這個都有很大的一個困難就沒辦法去定他罪那所以這個社會的衝擊是非常非常的大那什麼羈押的提案說我們就是譬如說科技監控啦還有定期報導都是要防止他脫逃"},{"start":468.88,"end":491.651,"text":"這只防止他脫逃而已沒辦法去處理證據上的問題因為我們的看法也是如此所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論因為就民眾黨團提案裡面他們有所謂的立法說明他們的說法是這樣他們說以串證作為羈押這個理由他們認為在實務現場有被濫用的可能"},{"start":492.151,"end":514.144,"text":"所以他們有這個擔心所以他們提出這個修法我也很想問在法務部你們這裡的角度你們怎麼看所謂有沒有可能遭到濫用或是你們就實務現場真的有看過有濫用的狀態那如果他真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例我們如何回來檢討配套而不是把所謂的串證這個部分從羈押要件拿掉"},{"start":515.335,"end":534.346,"text":"謝謝委員現在那個羈押是法官的權益是才法官保留羈押權是法官不是檢察官所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為只有羈押的票要跟法官申請那法官要開羈押庭那也要那個被告也要請也有律師來那法庭在羈押庭又就非常激烈的攻防"},{"start":534.986,"end":557.431,"text":"那檢察官要舉證說他有羈押的必要性 羈押的理由 羈押合乎羈押的要件等等那也必須讓法院去確信他有羈押的必要 合乎羈押的要件法官才會裁准羈押所以這個是在一個對人權的保護 那是非常的周延的他可以請律師 有公防 有開庭另外 即使他被羈押 他還可以抗告"},{"start":558.191,"end":579.54,"text":"那抗告高院有時候還會再發回所以這個對人權的保護在法律的程序是非常的一個周延所以我們很擔心如果說這個拿掉之後那個被害人好像詐團的被害人是求助無名那個凱凱命案那些被害人那真的無從伸張啊那個所以我們非常擔心擔心這個對社會的衝擊對被害人的保護真的是因為不能換不能定罪的話對被害人對社會的衝擊是非常非常的大的"},{"start":587.083,"end":606.225,"text":"所以這是我非常擔心對人權的保護這部分我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方我想以現在的法律程序這個是全部都是法官在做一個權力這是法官的職權所以在整個程序應該是蠻周延的"},{"start":606.906,"end":636.486,"text":"所以我認為如果就您剛剛的回答確實我們真的還是需要回來立法院好好討論但我想我剛剛就是提出我的疑問我也希望後續我們在立法院討論的時候不要再只是直接表決來第二個我想要回到今天的主題就是關於吳宗憲委員這個提案的版本關於無期徒刑的部分但是剛開始我想要先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游玉蘭委員也是游教授的投書就在昨天的聯合報其中有一句話他談到他說第一集的無期徒刑也就是"},{"start":637.587,"end":656.72,"text":"目前各個委員提案版本說第一集的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險"},{"start":658.693,"end":663.456,"text":"唸完這句話我就想到其實在這個會期的司法法治委員會我們有針對矯正人員的基層人員的壓力其實我們有做過相關的質詢跟對話我記得也還是主席您安排的然後我們也去做了很多現場的考察"},{"start":674.324,"end":695.199,"text":"除了我們很希望現場的狀況可以有所調整我們也希望給予基層人員的支持所以看到游教授這邊投書的時候我也想要請教法務部這邊你如何看目前所有委員這個提案的版本如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋或者是根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級"},{"start":696.44,"end":715.508,"text":"左右先不管這個三級的分法有沒有問題有沒有相關的配套其實我們真的擔心的是第一線介護人員他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰我先提出我的問題那如果是這樣的話光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難實務工作量的增加再回到法官這一塊剛剛吳委員你在"},{"start":717.489,"end":733.643,"text":"提案說明的時候你說要把這個部分交給法官去做決定可是我們其實非常擔心跟懷疑法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎這就是為什麼我剛提出說如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是我們就在委員會裡面進行"},{"start":737.326,"end":758.541,"text":"讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見包含法官包含基層的矯正人員包含檢察官所有的法務人員專家學者我認為所有我剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分的討論讓這個版本真的可以做到最好又符合大家對於在這件事情上的期待這邊我想聽聽看部長您的意見"},{"start":760.395,"end":788.801,"text":"謝謝委員 我想第一個是關於基層矯正人員對 矯正人員的這部分就是由教授的投書我想這個一定是無期徒員這個一定是會增加不得或全面的無期徒員都不得假釋的話這會真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作所以必須以我們現在負荷量我們建立的超收的情形以我們人員的比例的管理員跟那個收容的比例的一個問題都是非常的緊迫"},{"start":789.441,"end":817.702,"text":"那也比跟外國是完全是沒辦法比所以我們必須要要錢還有擴充的監鎖的設備這個設施所以我們很擔心這個直接貿然這全部都我們也是很擔心有沒有辦法第二個是關於法官的部分對 那另外這部分所以我們那時候我們提的法案就是限縮在故意跟故意殺人或殺人未遂的這個判死刑無期徒刑或死刑以下有期徒限縮在這個範圍"},{"start":818.897,"end":839.534,"text":"所以你們其實有版本只是還沒有送進來嗎我們那個在行政已經審查已經八月十號最後一次了齁那即將要定案了齁那我們還要再會選司法院那應該很快就會送到順利的話應該送到下個會期會送到司法院來那另外第二那個法官那個問題因為我們知道這個假釋是一個N點齁它是一個執行面的問題"},{"start":840.475,"end":866.466,"text":"它不是刑的種類的問題所以我們也是希望說這個由法官在個案的去看要可不可以假釋因為這個刑以後還有那個整個管理教化的一個問題嘛那沒有那麼簡單所以我是覺得要多多聽聽教證署都聽法官的意見那個個案直接個案在裁判室的時候就直接要定哪一級這個在技術性在法官這邊是有他的一個困難"},{"start":867.847,"end":892.503,"text":"標準是不是一致好沒問題所以謝謝部長回答我的問題其實剛剛吳宗憲我也有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好但確實我們如果牽扯到刑分確實有不同的罪的強度如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決讓人民是可以信任的免得我們以為要解決問題但可能製造了新的問題所以我想最後我在結束前我就再次引用游教授的投書最後一段話他有一段話作為總結"},{"start":893.724,"end":920.649,"text":"真正的正義或者是人民所期待的不是單純的重刑或者是報復而是讓社會在安全跟人權之中找到平衡才能嘗試久安我也想要提醒大家不要忘了台灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段其實在馬英九總統執政的時候我們正式把所謂這些國際人權的公約國內法化所以我們確實在很多議題上當然被害人"},{"start":921.149,"end":940.805,"text":"的家屬或是相關人的心情是需要考慮他們的感受需要考慮但也不要忘記基層人員法官的意見還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡我認為非常重要以上謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝那我先回應那個陳委員有關沒有就是那個宮廷會的事情"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":523,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請法務部長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好，謝謝主席。我其實也想要先附和一下剛剛王義川委員說的，我也認為應該要辦一下公聽會，主要的原因是，我還記得上個禮拜，我們在教文修AI基本法黨團協商的時候，當時吳宗憲委員有在嘛，你不是主席但是你有參與黨團協商的討論，你在裡面提醒大家一個非常重要的事情，大家對AI非常非常的關心，你當時提醒大家不可以什麼都要加進去，然後就把法案寫好寫滿，基於你們法律人背起來很痛苦，其實也違反了在立法的時候書寫文字的精神。我認為如果剛剛法務部跟司法院的說法，對於無期徒刑的調整，或者是對於國人的期待，我們確實要有所回應。我認為除了條文現在有一些委員的版本嘛，你們那邊也還在等，是不是有機會開公聽會啦！這個部分我也想要給一個實質建議，好不好？就請主席放在心裡頭，謝謝主席。","接下來我想問部長，除了剛剛講公聽會之外，我想先回到第一個，在之前民眾黨有提出一個版本，是要修串證這個事情，我想部長應該已經有先做功課了。也就是說，串證這個部分，民眾黨的提案是要把它從羈押的要件當中拿掉，就是所謂的「勾串共犯或證人」。當時這個提案一出爐之後，現在是付委的狀況，但是當時社會上有非常多法律人就提出自己的建議，包含非常非常多擔心，包含他們提到有台積電洩密案，這三個工程師有可能串證；或者是電信詐騙的行為，這些詐騙犯都很有可能在沒有羈押的情況之下，就開始出去串證、串好串滿。我現在投影片上放的是另外兩個例子，第一個，是雞排妹御用律師涉扮詐團內鬼，法官認為有勾串滅證的可能性，所以裁准羈押禁見，這是第一個。","第二個案子，是連國民黨委員都非常關心的臺中豐原五口命案，當時這個人確實就開始出去串證，新聞報導也都出來了，相關手機的簡訊也都查到了，所以我們其實真的很擔心，如果把串證這件事情從羈押要件拿掉，後續就社會實質上，大家會怎麼看這個事情？民眾的觀感還有民眾的擔心。","當然上上禮拜還有一個新聞，有一個正在審查中的案件，被告的律師甚至直接跟檢察官和法官說，立法院不是要修法了嗎？要把串證從羈押要件拿掉？明明我們立法院還在討論，可是你看社會上已經開始有律師在協助詐騙當事人，而且是行為人喔！提出這個聲請，所以我想要請部長回應一下，你怎麼看這個事情？當然我知道你們都會說尊重大院，可是我覺得還是有法律上實務的見解跟專業的見解，我們很想聽聽看你們的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，這個的確茲事體大，因為串證是羈押最核心的一個羈押理由，如果把它拿掉了，就變成大串證。譬如委員剛剛有關心的詐團，甚至剴剴命案，劉姓保母是姊妹關係，如果沒有用串證的理由羈押禁見，那剴剴命案絕對是辦不成的。包括很多犯罪集團，如果拿掉之後，整個犯罪集團就用這個去威脅、恐嚇，去干擾證人，要麼就全部大串證，要麼就是他不敢來作證或說實話，這樣真的會嚴重影響整個案件的偵辦，尤其像詐欺案，詐團幾乎有八、九成的比例是用串證的理由羈押，所以我們認為茲事體大。更何況以國際來講，德國、美國、法國、澳洲、國際法院都是以串證作為羈押的理由，因為不以串證為羈押理由的話，我們就沒辦法禁見，那詐團、命案、洗錢、虐童的、殺人的，包括詐團律師這一種的……這是完全沒辦法去辦，我覺得茲事體大，這個是嚴重且危險的，如果拿掉會影響整個社會的安定，我無法去預想結果，如果是這樣的話，那整個詐團都要開香檳慶祝了。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我的見解也是這樣，我們來往下看。我相信在整個輿論的發燒之下，我認為很多國人可能對於我們剛剛的對話不是那麼理解，我們回到刑訴法裡面來看目前民眾黨團提案的內容。他說目前在實務上有很多羈押的理由是因為有可能會湮滅、偽造、變造證據，就是所謂的滅證，或者是勾串共犯或證人，就是所謂的串證，所以一個是滅證、一個是串證，就文意上的解釋，串證是指對於人證的妨害，而滅證是指對於物證的妨害，我想在實務現場都是不可或缺的要件之一，所以，我也想問部長，你怎麼告訴國人，如何看待串證跟滅證的區別？"],["鄭部長銘謙：串證是人嘛，證人……"],["陳委員培瑜：我剛剛已經說是人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：人的證言最容易去勾串，而且他有人情的壓力，甚至因為迫於一些恐嚇或怎麼樣，他不敢，或者為了己身的利益，他去大串證，就像集團性的犯罪，串證是必然的，你不能期待他不串證，所以勾串證人如果給它修掉的話，修掉後我相信我們詐團幾乎辦不成了。"],["陳委員培瑜：關於物證就是所謂的滅證的部分，我們剛剛說，如果我們可以看得出區別，我其實很擔心會不會以後這個修法版本真的通過，就變成行為人可以串證？因為不會被羈押嘛！可是卻不可以滅證，所以，我覺得中間有一些荒謬跟弔詭的地方，我認為立法院真的還是要進行實質的討論。但是在民眾黨團的版本裡面，他們也特別提到所謂羈押的最後手段性，我們辦公室的研究是說，目前具保、責付、限制住居這些所謂的羈押替代手段，就您的角度可不可以有效防止犯罪行為人的串證行為？"],["鄭部長銘謙：羈押的替代手段，現在羈押最主要就是要防止他逃匿，押嫌疑人這個行為最主要就是防止脫逃，另一個就是保全證據。另外我們剛才說的勾串是保全證據的問題，我們都是用證據來認定犯罪事實，證據如果勾串的話就真的沒辦法了。剛剛委員有提到滅證的問題，如果滅證能夠留著，勾串反而刪掉，這是一個非常奇怪的做法，對案件的偵辦以及追緝這些團體性的犯罪甚至他個人，都有很大的困難，就沒辦法定罪，對於社會的衝擊非常非常大。至於怎樣去替代羈押，就是譬如說科技監控、定期報到，都是要防止他脫逃，這是防止他脫逃而已。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是還是沒有辦法阻止他們串證。"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒辦法處理證據上的問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題，因為我們的看法也是如此，所以我才會說我們真的需要在立法院裡面好好討論。","依民眾黨黨團提案的立法說明，他們認為以串證作為羈押的理由在實務現場有被濫用的可能，他們有這個擔心，所以提出修法。我也很想問，從法務部的角度你們怎麼看，有沒有可能遭到濫用，或是你們在實務現場真的有看過濫用的狀況？如果真的被濫用或是曾經有過被濫用的案例，我們如何回來檢討配套，而不是把串證這部分從羈押要件拿掉？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。現在羈押是法官的權力，採法官保留，羈押權在法官，不是檢察官。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以檢察官如果在偵查中認為有羈押必要，要跟法官聲請，法官要開羈押庭，被告也要請律師來，在羈押庭會非常激烈地攻防，檢察官要舉證有羈押的必要性、羈押的理由及合乎羈押要件等等，也必須讓法院確信有羈押的必要、合乎羈押的要件，法官才會裁准羈押，所以對人權的保護非常周延，他可以請律師，有攻防、有開庭，另外即使他被羈押還可以抗告，抗告到高院有時還會再發回，所以在法律程序上對人權的保護非常周延。","如果說這個拿掉之後，我們很擔心被害人例如詐團的被害人就求助無門，剴剴命案被害人真的無從伸張啊，所以我們非常擔心對社會的衝擊、對被害人的的保護，因為不能定罪的話，對被害人、對社會的衝擊非常非常的大，這是我非常擔心的。","在人權保護這部分，我們當然可以再檢視看看有沒有可以再加強的地方，我想以現在的法律程序，全部都是法官的權力，是法官的職權，所以整個程序應該是蠻周延的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我認為就您剛剛的回答，我們確實還是需要回來立法院好好討論，但我剛剛是提出我的疑問，也希望後續在立法院討論的時候，不再只是直接表決。","第二個我想要回到今天的主題，就是吳宗憲委員提案版本關於無期徒刑的部分。剛開始我先引用一段國民黨前立法委員游毓蘭委員也是游教授的投書，就在昨天的中國時報，其中有一句話他談到第一級的無期徒刑，也就是目前各個委員提案版本，他說第一級的無期徒刑把這些人的未來封閉在監獄之中，而這樣的安排不僅沒有辦法解決根本的問題，反而會把高度暴力的犯人推給基層的矯正人員，讓他們承擔起更大的壓力跟風險。念完這句話，我就想到其實在這個會期的司法及法制委員會，我們有針對基層矯正人員的壓力做過相關的質詢跟對話，我記得也是主席安排的，然後我們做了很多現場考察，除了希望現場的狀況可以有所調整，也希望給予基層人員支持。所以看到游教授這篇投書的時候，我想要請教法務部，你如何看目前所有委員的這個提案版本？如果按照這個提案版本無期徒刑不得假釋，或者根據主席的提案版本是把無期徒刑分在三級左右，先不管三級的分法有沒有問題、有沒有相關的配套，其實我們真正擔心的是第一線戒護人員，他們的管理量會面臨什麼樣的困難跟挑戰？我先提出我的問題，如果是這樣的話，光是基層人員就會遇到管理上的困難、實務工作量增加。","再回到法官這一塊，剛剛吳委員在提案說明的時候，說要把這部分交給法官決定，可是我們非常擔心跟懷疑，法官可以承擔這樣的責任嗎？他們願意承擔這樣的責任嗎？這就是為什麼我剛剛提出，如果司法院這邊我們有機會召開公聽會或是就在委員會裡面進行，讓更多實務現場的人提出他們的意見，包含法官、基層矯正人員、檢察官及所有的法務人員、專家學者，我認為所有剛剛提出的問題才有機會獲得充分地討論，讓這個版本真的可以做到最好，又符合大家對於這件事情的期待。這邊我想聽聽看部長的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，我想第一個問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：第一個是關於基層矯正人員。"],["鄭部長銘謙：矯正人員這部分……"],["陳委員培瑜：就是游教授的投書。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想無期徒刑一定是會增加，不得……或全面無期徒刑都不得假釋的話，真的是會增加很多基層人員的工作。現在的負荷量、監獄超收的情形，與管理員跟收容的比例問題都非常緊迫，跟外國也是完全沒辦法比，所以我們必須要錢，還有擴充設備設施。我們很擔心直接貿然全部弄的話有沒有辦法管理。"],["陳委員培瑜：第二個是關於法官的部分。"],["鄭部長銘謙：另外關於這部分，所以我們那時候提的法案限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂而判死刑、無期徒刑或十年以下有期徒刑，就是限縮在這個範圍。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們其實有版本，只是還沒有送進來？"],["鄭部長銘謙：已經在行政院審查，8月的時候最後一次，即將要定案了，我們還要再會銜司法院，應該很快就會送到，順利的話應該下個會期會送到立法院。","另外第二個法官的問題，我們知道假釋是一個恩典，它是執行面的問題，不是刑的種類問題，所以我們也希望由法官就個案去看可不可以假釋，因為刑以後還有整個管理、教化的問題嘛，沒有那麼簡單，所以我是覺得要多聽聽矯正署、多聽法官的意見。在個案裁判時就要直接定哪一級，在技術性、在法官這邊有他的困難，而且標準是不是一致？"],["陳委員培瑜：好、沒問題，謝謝部長回答我的問題。其實剛剛吳宗憲委員有提到您認為放在刑總裡面就好，但如果牽扯到刑分，確實有不同罪的強度，如何在不同的法官身上有一致的判決，讓人民可以信任，免得我們以為要解決問題，但可能製造了新的問題。","最後在結束前，我再次引用游教授投書的最後一段話作為總結：畢竟真正的正義，不是單純的「重刑」或「報復」，而是讓社會在安全與人權之間找到平衡，才能長治久安。","我也想要提醒大家，不要忘了臺灣引進跟國際人權對接的時段，其實在馬英九總統執政的時候，我們正式把國際人權公約國內法化。確實在很多議題上，我們當然需要考慮被害人家屬或是相關人的心情、感受，但也不要忘記基層人員、法官的意見，還有所有關於人權跟社會安全中間的平衡，我認為也非常重要，以上。謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我先回應陳委員有關公聽會的事情，公聽會的部分，我們當然可以再思考看看有沒有這個必要性，我在5月22日審理幼童案公聽會的時候，已經把它放在議程裡面，所以就不得假釋的部分，其實我們在公聽會裡面有討論過了，那麼已經辦過一次公聽會，有沒有需要再辦？這部分我再思考一下。","剛剛有提到監所，我們最近一直排視察也是為了不得假釋的配套，因為這是一連串的，這就是我們前陣子為什麼一直去監所的原因。當然游毓蘭說的是一個很好的建議，但其實這世界上很多國家都有不得假釋。謝謝，您剛剛的建議，我會思考一下，看有沒有必要再開公聽會，這是給您的回應，謝謝陳委員。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}