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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 331.626, \"end\": 331.646, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 337.353, \"end\": 346.219, \"text\": \"994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 337.353, \"end\": 338.313, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 338.313, \"end\": 338.434, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 338.434, \"end\": 338.554, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 338.554, \"end\": 338.854, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 338.854, \"end\": 339.154, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 339.154, \"end\": 340.095, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 340.095, \"end\": 340.255, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 340.255, \"end\": 340.415, \"score\": 0.765}, 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345.979, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 345.979, \"end\": 345.999, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 345.999, \"end\": 346.019, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 346.019, \"end\": 346.179, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 346.179, \"end\": 346.199, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 346.199, \"end\": 346.219, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 366.852, \"end\": 393.465, \"text\": \"這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 366.852, \"end\": 367.032, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 367.032, \"end\": 367.253, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 367.253, \"end\": 367.793, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"武\", \"start\": 367.793, \"end\": 367.933, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": 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{\"start\": 395.528, \"end\": 402.639, \"text\": \"現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 395.528, \"end\": 396.249, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 396.249, \"end\": 396.71, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 396.71, \"end\": 399.754, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 399.754, \"end\": 400.696, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 400.696, \"end\": 400.896, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 400.896, \"end\": 401.076, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 401.076, \"end\": 401.216, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 401.216, \"end\": 401.757, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 401.757, \"end\": 401.917, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 401.917, \"end\": 402.058, \"score\": 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00:00:44,251\n有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待\n\n3\n00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:53,129\n但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論\n\n4\n00:01:01,658 --> 00:01:29,527\n他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜\n\n5\n00:01:31,668 --> 00:01:48,078\n記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些\n\n6\n00:01:49,139 --> 00:02:05,135\n不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法\n\n7\n00:02:05,655 --> 00:02:28,566\n那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個\n\n8\n00:02:34,042 --> 00:02:45,304\n有關我就是因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那\n\n9\n00:02:59,287 --> 00:03:19,442\n我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單你們大概就提了兩個\n\n10\n00:03:21,188 --> 00:03:34,253\n問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個\n\n11\n00:03:36,954 --> 00:03:58,118\n沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級\n\n12\n00:04:03,799 --> 00:04:28,421\n我在今天的這四條的修正裡面我覺得看不到啦我看不到那如果是由法官來或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話\n\n13\n00:04:29,682 --> 00:04:48,665\n那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分\n\n14\n00:04:49,446 --> 00:05:03,936\n在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年\n\n15\n00:05:04,696 --> 00:05:25,274\n平均假釋年數是17.9啦17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個因為他這只到111年我看到的\n\n16\n00:05:26,423 --> 00:05:31,646\n新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900應該是994人對不對部長\n\n17\n00:05:37,353 --> 00:05:46,219\n994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年\n\n18\n00:06:06,852 --> 00:06:33,465\n這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人\n\n19\n00:06:35,528 --> 00:06:42,639\n現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人您假釋\n\n20\n00:06:43,820 --> 00:07:04,305\n沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在\n\n21\n00:07:05,345 --> 00:07:13,011\n你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過\n\n22\n00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:35,726\n我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法\n\n23\n00:07:36,706 --> 00:08:03,942\n這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋\n\n24\n00:08:05,783 --> 00:08:31,618\n你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是\n\n25\n00:08:32,458 --> 00:08:59,060\n只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的\n\n26\n00:08:59,761 --> 00:09:19,478\n的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見\n\n27\n00:09:20,999 --> 00:09:38,712\n那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個\n\n28\n00:09:43,611 --> 00:09:59,748\n這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題\n\n29\n00:10:04,093 --> 00:10:30,247\n另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個\n\n30\n00:10:32,057 --> 00:10:49,585\n所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的\n\n31\n00:10:53,027 --> 00:11:04,881\n倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁\n\n32\n00:11:10,948 --> 00:11:38,091\n這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難\n\n33\n00:11:39,032 --> 00:11:57,165\n這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛\n\n34\n00:11:58,762 --> 00:12:26,223\n反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋\n\n35\n00:12:27,884 --> 00:12:55,550\n衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上\n\n36\n00:12:57,572 --> 00:12:58,400\n謝謝那再跟沈委員報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n13013\t24261\t主席 我想今天今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂\n26246\t44251\t有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待\n45920\t53129\t但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論\n61658\t89527\t他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜\n91668\t108078\t記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些\n109139\t125135\t不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法\n125655\t148566\t那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個\n154042\t165304\t有關我就是 因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那\n179287\t199442\t我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等 這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個\n201188\t214253\t問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個\n216954\t238118\t沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級\n243799\t268421\t我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話\n269682\t288665\t那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分\n289446\t303936\t在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年\n304696\t325274\t平均假釋年數是17.9啦 17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報 我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個 因為他這只到111年 我看到的\n326423\t331646\t新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900 應該是994人對不對 部長\n337353\t346219\t994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年\n366852\t393465\t這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人\n395528\t402639\t現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋\n403820\t424305\t沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊 無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在\n425345\t433011\t你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過\n439180\t455726\t我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法\n456706\t483942\t這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋\n485783\t511618\t你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是\n512458\t539060\t只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的\n539761\t559478\t的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見\n560999\t578712\t那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個\n583611\t599748\t這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題\n604093\t630247\t另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個\n632057\t649585\t所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的\n653027\t664881\t倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁\n670948\t698091\t這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難\n699032\t717165\t這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛\n718762\t746223\t反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋\n747884\t775550\t衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上\n777572\t778400\t謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告\n","txt":"主席 我想今天今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂\n有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待\n但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論\n他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜\n記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些\n不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法\n那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個\n有關我就是 因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那\n我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等 這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個\n問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個\n沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級\n我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話\n那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分\n在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年\n平均假釋年數是17.9啦 17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報 我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個 因為他這只到111年 我看到的\n新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900 應該是994人對不對 部長\n994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年\n這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人\n現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋\n沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊 無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在\n你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過\n我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法\n這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋\n你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是\n只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的\n的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見\n那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個\n這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題\n另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個\n所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的\n倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁\n這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難\n這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛\n反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋\n衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上\n謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:13.013 --> 00:24.261\n主席我想今天今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂\n\n00:26.246 --> 00:44.251\n有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待\n\n00:45.920 --> 00:53.129\n但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論\n\n01:01.658 --> 01:29.527\n他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜\n\n01:31.668 --> 01:48.078\n記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些\n\n01:49.139 --> 02:05.135\n不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法\n\n02:05.655 --> 02:28.566\n那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個\n\n02:34.042 --> 02:45.304\n有關我就是因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那\n\n02:59.287 --> 03:19.442\n我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單你們大概就提了兩個\n\n03:21.188 --> 03:34.253\n問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個\n\n03:36.954 --> 03:58.118\n沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級\n\n04:03.799 --> 04:28.421\n我在今天的這四條的修正裡面我覺得看不到啦我看不到那如果是由法官來或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話\n\n04:29.682 --> 04:48.665\n那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分\n\n04:49.446 --> 05:03.936\n在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年\n\n05:04.696 --> 05:25.274\n平均假釋年數是17.9啦17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個因為他這只到111年我看到的\n\n05:26.423 --> 05:31.646\n新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900應該是994人對不對部長\n\n05:37.353 --> 05:46.219\n994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年\n\n06:06.852 --> 06:33.465\n這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人\n\n06:35.528 --> 06:42.639\n現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人您假釋\n\n06:43.820 --> 07:04.305\n沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在\n\n07:05.345 --> 07:13.011\n你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過\n\n07:19.180 --> 07:35.726\n我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法\n\n07:36.706 --> 08:03.942\n這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋\n\n08:05.783 --> 08:31.618\n你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是\n\n08:32.458 --> 08:59.060\n只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的\n\n08:59.761 --> 09:19.478\n的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見\n\n09:20.999 --> 09:38.712\n那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個\n\n09:43.611 --> 09:59.748\n這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題\n\n10:04.093 --> 10:30.247\n另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個\n\n10:32.057 --> 10:49.585\n所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的\n\n10:53.027 --> 11:04.881\n倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁\n\n11:10.948 --> 11:38.091\n這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難\n\n11:39.032 --> 11:57.165\n這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛\n\n11:58.762 --> 12:26.223\n反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋\n\n12:27.884 --> 12:55.550\n衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上\n\n12:57.572 --> 12:58.400\n謝謝那再跟沈委員報告\n\n","segments":[{"start":13.013,"end":24.261,"text":"主席 我想今天今天我們在討論有關於刑法修正草案的這些相關的修訂"},{"start":26.246,"end":44.251,"text":"有一個很重要的議程是由我們召委所提出的這個有關無期徒刑的分級制度的討論那這樣的討論我個人認為說是相當的正面也確實回應了社會大家對於這個重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待"},{"start":45.92,"end":53.129,"text":"但是我想這個案子我的印象雖然之前在虐童案的公聽會裡面有這個議題一個小議但畢竟那個省是針對這個虐童案假釋的問題的時候一個附帶討論"},{"start":61.658,"end":89.527,"text":"他跟針對我們這個無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套跟相關的法令那個是不同的層次的討論所以這是不是應該要畢竟我個人知道這個召委提出分級制度是幾天前這是記者會我看到記者會我們召開記者會的時候我才知道我們現在這個法案出來了要進行無期徒刑的分級制度到今天也還沒我印象中應該還沒滿一個禮拜"},{"start":91.668,"end":108.078,"text":"記者會跟委員報告我們其實去年就有提出來然後部長也在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提因為已經一年了所以我才會再繼續那我希望說這個案尤其是這些開記者會之後事實上也引起社會的一些"},{"start":109.139,"end":125.135,"text":"不同意見大家才重視的才紛紛提出來像昨天聯合報剛才陳培宇委員有講了相關的一些投書或者學界也有一些不同意見針對終身監禁制度他的得失利弊有提出了一些不同的看法"},{"start":125.655,"end":148.566,"text":"那這些我覺得都事實上值得社會深入討論那更重要的是我想今天就因為等一下可能會也許會進入竹條所以我我是希望會在這裡先整個大體上來我們就針對這個部分來做一些討論那現在是不是先請這個部長麻煩部長我們是不是這個我們請那個副秘書長一起好不好因為這個委員好這個"},{"start":154.042,"end":165.304,"text":"有關我就是 因為我今天手頭上版本我看到的就是我們召委所提出來的這個有關這個五級土地分析制的齁這個大概是第33條這個組型是種類啦齁還有這個第51條數字類併發的相關問題77條有關假釋的規定還有增列79之1的這個兩年以上型的這個併行執行啦齁大概就這4條的修正那"},{"start":179.287,"end":199.442,"text":"我也看了你們法務部跟司法院的書面報告基本上我看到你們都是持保留的態度 一再斟酌傾聽各方意見等等 這些這樣子的規定司法院的意見比較簡單 你們大概就提了兩個"},{"start":201.188,"end":214.253,"text":"問題一個就是說你認為說只在這個在這個行種裡面規定新的把這個五級圖形分為三級但是在各分則以及甚至形式的特別法裡面他沒有相關適用要件的這個這個這個這個"},{"start":216.954,"end":238.118,"text":"沒有相關的適用要件你會讓這個如果說而且尤其在法務部的意見提得更強這一點剛剛好像召委有做回應我是沒有聽到就是說究竟這個判決未來是要在判決主文裡面法官要預知你判這個無期徒刑是判一級的還是二級的還是三級的或者是裁判以後再有另外的機構來做評估說他到底是一級二級三級"},{"start":243.799,"end":268.421,"text":"我在今天的這四條的修正裡面 我覺得看不到啦 我看不到那如果是由法官來 或者是檢察官在求刑的時候就必須要具體針對他三級的 最近求刑哪一級的無期徒刑或是法官在判決的時候 他主文必須預知我這個判處是第一級無期徒刑 還是第二級無期徒刑如果我的認知是這樣子的話"},{"start":269.682,"end":288.665,"text":"那這個在法務部的部分他就提出了更多的意見這個法務部我看法務部的書面報告提了八大意見針對今天的這個只修這四條法來增訂這個無紀錄型的分級制你們提出了八大意見那我這個部分"},{"start":289.446,"end":303.936,"text":"在談今天修法這個問題之前我想有一個部分我先釐清因為剛才包括在提案說明以及相關的質詢裡面都有提出說近年來的無期徒刑的假釋平均年"},{"start":304.696,"end":325.274,"text":"平均假釋年數是17.9啦 17.9年那我看趙偉的簡報 我很仔細的看趙偉的簡報他有提到說102年到111年有657個這個無期徒刑的受刑人那他們平均的這個假釋的年限是17.9啦不過我這個 因為他這只到111年 我看到的"},{"start":326.423,"end":331.646,"text":"新的資料是到目前為止無期徒刑受刑人應該是多少名900 應該是994人對不對 部長"},{"start":337.353,"end":346.219,"text":"994人但是因為我們的這個之前的這個這個有關有關假釋門檻其實修過兩次啦所以有三種不同的適用在民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋在2006年這個從86年到2006年又修了一次又這個他把15年到20年之後再延長到25年"},{"start":366.852,"end":393.465,"text":"這個目前在武吉如營受刑人他有適用三個法所以這17.9所謂剛計算17.9他事實上很多都是舊法他適用10年就可以假釋的或者是15年就可以假釋的所以修法之後我們從這個2006年修法之後提稱為25年目前這樣子的受刑這樣的武吉如營受刑人有多少適用新法的25年可以假釋的有多少人"},{"start":395.528,"end":402.639,"text":"現在整個是448人適用新法的448人有多少人 您假釋"},{"start":403.82,"end":424.305,"text":"沒有沒有沒有因為還沒有25年因為現在其實以現在好幾種新修法修法到現在還沒有25年所以不可能有人現在不可能有這個修法之後已經假釋的這個還沒有所以剛剛所提出來這些人數跟這些平均的受刑這樣社會覺得說啊 無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋這是舊法事實上新法到現在"},{"start":425.345,"end":433.011,"text":"你沒有超過25年是不能假釋的而且到目前為止受刑的無期徒刑受刑448人裡面還沒有還沒有人被假釋過對不對這個才是實情那這個這個不過"},{"start":439.18,"end":455.726,"text":"我覺得更重要的是要討論說如果我們今天按照這個草案四條這樣通過的話會有什麼樣的問題我覺得這個部分可能因為畢竟這個是我們召委所提出的草案就是第一次我看到這個具體的條文有關保護基督徑分析然後把這個終身監禁制度入法"},{"start":456.706,"end":483.942,"text":"這個是第一次所以這個部分我看法務部提出了很多執行上面的意見我覺得是我們值得在這裡跟召委來探討法務部說的這個東西有沒有道理那我們是不是有在聽取各界意見的空間或者說我們是不是有其他的讓大家再思考的部分大概法務部所提的幾個意見第一個最重要的就是說最根本的就是假釋"},{"start":485.783,"end":511.618,"text":"你們法務部門的假釋是刑的執行它不是刑的種類所以多久可以假釋這應該是刑的執行面那你把它在這個入法到用刑的種類來區分它假釋把假釋提升到刑的種類來好像在這個法例上面會有一點漢格這是你們提的第一點第二點就是剛剛有提過就是"},{"start":512.458,"end":539.06,"text":"只規定在刑總但是在刑分跟這些特別法裡面沒有構成他的這個刑沒有說什麼樣的行為太樣什麼樣的構成要件他要處一級的什麼樣的構成要件要處二級的什麼樣的要處三級沒有這樣子的構成要件的列舉你這樣完全由法官自己來就目前刑分跟特別法裡面的無期徒刑說得處無期徒刑之後我法官要決定你要三級還是二級還是一級這給法官也太大的"},{"start":539.761,"end":559.478,"text":"的心理壓力我認為也就你沒有你如果如果就這樣子修法啦我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級的無期徒刑沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑因為我構成要件裡面並沒有說我什麼樣的構成要件我可以判一級所以我認為說這部分也是法務部所提的一個意見"},{"start":560.999,"end":578.712,"text":"那另外就是這個有關配套剛剛講過到底是審判時候這個審判主文必須預知還是在裁判之後才有另外設一個機關來來來衡量他是一級還二級還三級這部分在這個這次的修法裡面也不清楚了那另外有關這個宿醉併罰還有這個這個有關這個"},{"start":583.611,"end":599.748,"text":"這次修法還要把有期徒刑的合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年這個也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級的相關橫屏的問題也會產生這個問題"},{"start":604.093,"end":630.247,"text":"另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題我想如果我們有機會開公聽會可能會在執行上面會變成一個很大的其實是在執行上很大的問題但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難就是有關撤銷假釋之後的殘刑執行的問題這部分可能會發生最大的問題這個跟這些保安處分等等相關的你有可能會造成一些道德風險這些都是需要考慮的那這個"},{"start":632.057,"end":649.585,"text":"所以法務部這次的書面報告這次其實在我看是蠻強硬的寫到八大意見每一個都是見請釐清 再與斟酌我個人是真的很希望說我們其實不急於今天延長會期的"},{"start":653.027,"end":664.881,"text":"倒數第二天的這個委員會裡面我們就把它定案我個人是還是希望就針對剛剛所講的這些問題我想如果有學界 實務界然後甚至這個有關預證的相關的執行關於終身監禁"},{"start":670.948,"end":698.091,"text":"這樣子的制度齁它不只是人力負荷剛剛部長提到說這樣子人力負荷它不只是人力負荷的問題而是我當我被終身監禁之後我在獄中所有過那些累進處獄的這些都對我都沒有意義了我所有所有遵守這個這個這個這個獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了如果我中我是終身不得假釋那這個會造成在管理上面不是不是說你怎麼樣而是管理上面會非常困難"},{"start":699.032,"end":717.165,"text":"這個我們在十年前發生高雄監獄發生的暴動就是因為假設遙遙無期所以發生這樣的暴動那如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多這種三級一級無期徒刑這些眾生監禁制度的人對他們來講我遵守你的規定幹嘛"},{"start":718.762,"end":746.223,"text":"反正我就終身監禁在我們的預證管理上面會造成很大的可能要整個預證的管理要重新來設計調整這個都是配套的問題所以這個有很多的部分值得討論那我個人是更希望這個未來在假釋的部分我們之前我在也在質詢中提到有關這個被害人影響陳述的部分我個人是很希望說在未來的假釋"},{"start":747.884,"end":775.55,"text":"衡量上面能夠納入被害人陳述的這個部分那這部分我以後有時間我再談因為這件事情已經超過蠻多了那我是希望說等一下在主條討論的時候也希望稍微這邊能夠再做思考我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉那大家就這個問題之後能夠進一步細步的社會各界能夠充分的表達意見讓大家取得一個社會共識跟這個一個可執行的一個方式以上"},{"start":777.572,"end":778.4,"text":"謝謝 那再跟沈委員報告"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時42分）今天我們討論有關刑法修正草案這些相關修訂，有一個很重要的議題是召委所提出的有關無期徒刑分級制度的討論，對於這樣的討論，我個人認為是相當正面的，也確實回應了社會大眾對於重大刑案必須嚴懲的期待。在我的印象中，雖然之前虐童案的公聽會也有討論這個議題，但畢竟那個是針對虐童案假釋問題審查時的一個附帶討論，跟這次無期徒刑整個分級制度相關的配套及法令是不同層次的討論，所以是不是應該要聽……畢竟我個人知道召委提出分級制度是幾天前的記者會，就是我看到召委召開記者會時才知道這個法案已經出來了，要進行無期徒刑分級制度，印象中到今天也還沒滿一個禮拜，記者會……"],["主席：跟委員報告，我們其實去年就有提出來，然後部長在去年9月27號有跟我們說要提版本，因為已經一年了，所以我才會再繼續，謝謝。"],["沈委員發惠：好，事實上這個案子在召開記者會之後，引起了社會重視，大家才紛紛提出不同意見，像剛剛陳培瑜委員也有提到聯合報的一些相關投書，或者學界針對終身監禁制度的得失利弊，有提出一些不同看法，這些我都覺得值得社會深入討論；更重要的是，也許這個法案等一下可能會進入逐條審查，所以我是希望在這裡大家先針對這個部分做一些大體上的討論。","首先請部長和副秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩部長和副秘。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：今天我們手頭上的版本，就是召委提出來的有關無期徒刑分級制的修正草案，主要是第三十三條主刑的種類、第五十一條數罪併罰的相關問題、第七十七條有關假釋的規定，以及增列第七十九條之一有關兩年以上刑的併刑執行，大概就是這4個條文的修正，我也看了法務部和司法院的書面報告，基本上你們都是持保留態度，表示宜再斟酌、應傾聽各方意見等等，司法院的意見比較簡單，大概就提了兩個問題，一個是你們認為只在刑種部分做新的規定，把無期徒刑分為三級，但是在各分則，甚至刑事的特別法裡面，都沒有相關適用要件，尤其法務部的意見提得更強，這點好像剛剛召委有做回應，我是沒有聽到，法務部認為未來究竟是要在判決主文裡面，由法官諭知判無期徒刑是判一級、二級還是三級，或者在裁判以後，再由另外的機構評估認定到底是一級、二級、三級，這個部分我在今天這4個條文的修正案裡面看不到，是檢察官在求刑時，就必須具體求刑是三級中的哪一級無期徒刑，或者是法官在判決的主文，就必須諭知判處第一級還是第二級無期徒刑？如果我的認知是這樣，那麼針對今天修這4個條文來增訂無期徒刑的分級制，法務部就提出了8大意見。","在談今天這個修法問題之前，我想有一個部分要先釐清，就是剛才包括提案說明以及相關質詢中，都有提到近年來無期徒刑的平均假釋年數是17.9年，我很仔細的看了召委的簡報，提到102年到111年有657個無期徒刑受刑人，他們平均假釋的年限是17.9年，因為這個資料只到111年，而我看到的新資料是到目前為止，無期徒刑受刑人應該是994人，部長，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：994人。"],["沈委員發惠：994人嘛！因為之前刑法第七十七條有關假釋門檻的規定，其實修過了兩次，所以有3種不同的適用規定，民國86年以前是10年就可以假釋，86年和2006年分別修了一次，把15年到20年的規定，又再延長到25年，也就是說，目前的無期徒刑受刑人適用3個規定，所以剛剛計算的所謂17.9年中，事實上有很多都是適用舊法10年或者15年就可以假釋的，從2006年修法之後，就提升為25年，目前適用新法25年可以假釋的無期徒刑受刑人有多少人？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在整個是448人。"],["沈委員發惠：對，448人，適用新法的有448人，有多少人已經假釋了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：沒有、沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有嘛！因為還沒有25年。"],["鄭部長銘謙：其實以現在好幾種……"],["沈委員發惠：修法到現在還沒有25年，所以不可能有人是修法之後已經假釋的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個還沒有。"],["沈委員發惠：所以剛剛提出來的這些人數和平均受刑年限，會讓社會覺得好像無期徒刑關17.9年就可以假釋，事實上這是舊法，新法到現在沒有超過25年是不能假釋的，所以到目前為止，無期徒刑受刑的448人中，還沒有人被假釋過，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這個才是實情。不過我覺得更重要要討論的是，如果今天按照這4個修正條文通過的話，會有什麼樣的問題？因為畢竟這是召委提出來的草案，也是我們第一次看到的具體條文，就是把無期徒刑分級、終身監禁制度入法，這是第一次，針對這個部分，我看法務部提出了很多執行上的意見，值得我們在這裡跟召委探討，究竟法務部說的這些有沒有道理，我們是不是有再聽取各界意見的空間，或者我們是不是有其他再讓大家思考的部分？大概法務部提出的意見，包括第一個，最重要也是最根本的，就是法務部認為假釋是刑的執行，不是刑的種類，所以多久可以假釋，應該是刑的執行面問題，現在把它入法到用刑的種類來區分，把假釋提升到刑的種類來，在法律上好像會有一些扞格，這是法務部提出的第一點意見。第二點，只規定在刑種，但在刑分和一些特別法裡面，並沒有規定什麼樣的行為態樣、什麼樣的構成要件要處一級，什麼樣的構成要件要處二級，什麼樣的要處三級，沒有這些構成要件的列舉，完全是由法官根據目前刑分跟特別法裡規定處無期徒刑之後，再決定要三級、二級還是一級，這樣會給法官太大的心理壓力，如果是這樣修法，我認為很有可能到最後沒有法官敢判一級無期徒刑，因為構成要件裡面並沒有說什麼樣的構成要件可以判一級嘛！所以我認為這部分也是法務部所提的意見；另外有關配套剛剛講過，到底是審判的時候審判主文必須諭知，還是在裁判之後才另外設一個機關來衡量它是一級、二級還是三級？這部分在這一次修法也不清楚了；另外有關數罪併罰，這次修法還要把有期徒刑合併定刑的上限從30年提到40年，這也會造成跟這些無期徒刑分級衡平性的問題；另外你們提到一個比較技術性的問題，我想如果我們有機會開公聽會，其實可能在執行上會變成一個很大的問題，但是在這裡要談得清楚有點困難，就是有關撤銷假釋後殘刑執行的問題，這部分可能會發生最大的問題啦！跟保安處分等等相關的執行，有可能會造成一些道德風險，這些都是需要考慮的。所以我看法務部這次的書面報告，其實在我看來是蠻強硬的，8大意見每一個都是建請釐清、再予斟酌。我個人真的很希望，我們其實不急於今天在這個延長會期倒數第2天的這個委員會就把它定案，我個人還是希望就針對剛剛所講這些問題，我想如果有學界、實務界，甚至有關獄政相關的執行，終身監禁這樣子的制度，剛剛部長提到這樣子會人力負荷，它不只是人力負荷的問題，而是當我被終身監禁之後，在獄中所有過那些累進處遇對我都沒有意義了……"],["鄭部長銘謙：完全沒有效了。"],["沈委員發惠：我所有遵守獄方管理的這些規定通通都沒有意義了，如果我是終身監禁、終身不得假釋，這個會造成在管理上面，不是說你怎麼樣，而是管理上面會非常困難。十年前高雄監獄發生暴動，就是因為假釋遙遙無期，所以發生這樣的暴動。如果未來在監獄裡面有蠻多一級無期徒刑、終身監禁的人，對他們來講，我遵守你的規定幹嘛！反正我就終身監禁，這在獄政管理上會造成很大的問題，可能整個獄政的管理要重新設計、調整，這些都是配套的問題。所以有很多部分值得討論，我個人更希望未來在假釋的部分……之前我也在質詢中提到有關被害人影響陳述的部分，我個人是很希望在未來假釋的衡量上能夠納入被害人陳述的部分，這部分我以後有時間我再談，因為時間已經超過蠻多了。我是希望等一下在逐條討論的時候，也希望召委能夠再思考，我們是不是今天這個問題等於是拋磚引玉，大家就這些問題之後能夠進一步讓社會各界充分地表達意見，讓大家取得一個社會共識跟可執行的方式？以上。"],["主席：謝謝。再跟沈委員報告，有關要不要再加開公聽會，等一下我會再思考看怎麼樣做比較好，因為這個議題拋出來已經一年了，所以我才想說我們還是要有進度，這對國家才有交代。另外，還有終身不得假釋，其實在很多國家都有這個制度，當然您所提到的那個，有啦！就是進去後會不會覺得遙遙無期……"],["沈委員發惠：整套要重……"],["主席：是！所以這部分我會再思考有沒有必要再加開公聽會凝聚各界的意見，謝謝。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}