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{\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 670.508, \"end\": 670.528, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,612 --> 00:00:09,253\n主席好在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n\n2\n00:00:34,421 --> 00:01:01,469\n那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告\n\n3\n00:01:02,429 --> 00:01:24,916\n先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是\n\n4\n00:01:25,856 --> 00:01:48,054\n那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好這邊我想提醒部長\n\n5\n00:01:50,316 --> 00:02:09,781\n就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的\n\n6\n00:02:11,439 --> 00:02:38,150\n這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊\n\n7\n00:02:39,884 --> 00:02:54,927\n各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多\n\n8\n00:03:03,889 --> 00:03:18,506\n包括游玉蘭游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求\n\n9\n00:03:18,986 --> 00:03:21,427\n對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時\n\n10\n00:03:40,295 --> 00:03:48,301\n在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑\n\n11\n00:04:00,069 --> 00:04:16,589\n目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友\n\n12\n00:04:19,592 --> 00:04:34,200\n連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不\n\n13\n00:04:35,461 --> 00:04:52,551\n符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n\n14\n00:04:53,331 --> 00:05:19,367\n然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法\n\n15\n00:05:19,807 --> 00:05:32,833\n所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎\n\n16\n00:05:34,035 --> 00:05:56,737\n三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大\n\n17\n00:05:57,117 --> 00:06:22,040\n那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動\n\n18\n00:06:24,061 --> 00:06:52,380\n還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何\n\n19\n00:06:52,681 --> 00:06:57,097\n然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见\n\n20\n00:06:58,224 --> 00:07:21,797\n我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對\n\n21\n00:07:22,737 --> 00:07:31,987\n反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢\n\n22\n00:07:37,087 --> 00:07:58,758\n謝謝委員因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說\n\n23\n00:07:59,838 --> 00:08:22,395\n完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見\n\n24\n00:08:23,516 --> 00:08:42,638\n我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋\n\n25\n00:08:43,439 --> 00:09:07,270\n其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見\n\n26\n00:09:10,748 --> 00:09:22,567\n定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲\n\n27\n00:09:28,482 --> 00:09:48,398\n包委員這個是不是違憲這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好那請\n\n28\n00:09:53,069 --> 00:10:15,230\n部長如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋不行不行不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒\n\n29\n00:10:15,911 --> 00:10:32,761\n在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋\n\n30\n00:10:34,042 --> 00:10:50,659\n是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有\n\n31\n00:10:51,400 --> 00:11:10,528\n立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5612\t9253\t主席好 在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是 部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n34421\t61469\t那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告\n62429\t84916\t先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是\n85856\t108054\t那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長\n110316\t129781\t就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的\n131439\t158150\t這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊\n159884\t174927\t各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多\n183889\t198506\t包括游玉蘭 游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求\n198986\t201427\t對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時\n220295\t228301\t在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑\n240069\t256589\t目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友\n259592\t274200\t連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不\n275461\t292551\t符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n293331\t319367\t然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法\n319807\t332833\t所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎\n334035\t356737\t三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大\n357117\t382040\t那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動\n384061\t412380\t還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何\n412681\t417097\t然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见\n418224\t441797\t我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對\n442737\t451987\t反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢\n457087\t478758\t謝謝委員 因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說\n479838\t502395\t完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見\n503516\t522638\t我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋\n523439\t547270\t其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見\n550748\t562567\t定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲\n568482\t588398\t包委員 這個是不是違憲 這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織 我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請\n593069\t615230\t部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒\n615911\t632761\t在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋\n634042\t650659\t是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有\n651400\t670528\t立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝\n","txt":"主席好 在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是 部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告\n先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是\n那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長\n就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的\n這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊\n各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多\n包括游玉蘭 游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求\n對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時\n在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑\n目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友\n連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不\n符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法\n所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎\n三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大\n那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動\n還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何\n然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见\n我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對\n反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢\n謝謝委員 因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說\n完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見\n我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋\n其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見\n定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲\n包委員 這個是不是違憲 這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織 我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請\n部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒\n在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋\n是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有\n立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.612 --> 00:09.253\n主席好在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n\n00:34.421 --> 01:01.469\n那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告\n\n01:02.429 --> 01:24.916\n先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是\n\n01:25.856 --> 01:48.054\n那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好這邊我想提醒部長\n\n01:50.316 --> 02:09.781\n就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的\n\n02:11.439 --> 02:38.150\n這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊\n\n02:39.884 --> 02:54.927\n各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多\n\n03:03.889 --> 03:18.506\n包括游玉蘭游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求\n\n03:18.986 --> 03:21.427\n對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時\n\n03:40.295 --> 03:48.301\n在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑\n\n04:00.069 --> 04:16.589\n目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友\n\n04:19.592 --> 04:34.200\n連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不\n\n04:35.461 --> 04:52.551\n符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋\n\n04:53.331 --> 05:19.367\n然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法\n\n05:19.807 --> 05:32.833\n所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎\n\n05:34.035 --> 05:56.737\n三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大\n\n05:57.117 --> 06:22.040\n那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動\n\n06:24.061 --> 06:52.380\n還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何\n\n06:52.681 --> 06:57.097\n然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见\n\n06:58.224 --> 07:21.797\n我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對\n\n07:22.737 --> 07:31.987\n反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢\n\n07:37.087 --> 07:58.758\n謝謝委員因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說\n\n07:59.838 --> 08:22.395\n完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見\n\n08:23.516 --> 08:42.638\n我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋\n\n08:43.439 --> 09:07.270\n其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見\n\n09:10.748 --> 09:22.567\n定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲\n\n09:28.482 --> 09:48.398\n包委員這個是不是違憲這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好那請\n\n09:53.069 --> 10:15.230\n部長如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋不行不行不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒\n\n10:15.911 --> 10:32.761\n在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋\n\n10:34.042 --> 10:50.659\n是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有\n\n10:51.400 --> 11:10.528\n立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.612,"end":9.253,"text":"主席好 在這邊有請鄭部長麻煩部長委員好是 部長你好我想就是您在去年6月的時候在本院接受備詢就已經明確承諾說你們會研議有關於針對凌虐未滿7歲兒童自死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":34.421,"end":61.469,"text":"那麼而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速的提出可是您從去年6月承諾至今我們到現在其實都還沒有看到法務部這邊的提案然後一直到今天的你們的報告裡面大概才略提了你們的草案的內容方向所以在這邊本席想要請教就是你們這一年從去年6月到現在也一年多了就是為什麼都沒有將你們的草案先預告"},{"start":62.429,"end":84.916,"text":"先讓大家社會大眾知道說你們的修法方向還有實際的內容是什麼謝謝委員其實我們那個草案我們在去年已經送上行政院審查那現在是審查第六次的審查會當然我們不是只有那一條我們也有好幾條的條文當然最重要就是"},{"start":85.856,"end":108.054,"text":"那個77條另外還有78條之一還有因為要配合那個113年宪判8號跟2號的這些的宪判的議職所以我們做一個修法那我想我們現在的進行已經進入到尾聲了那再來的話就要在只要沈俊輝在會寫那個司法院就會送立法院來審理好 這邊我想提醒部長"},{"start":110.316,"end":129.781,"text":"就是因為我有觀察到你們法務部現在所提的修法的法案你們都沒有進行草案預告對其實很多機關他們不管是修法或者是修辦法都會有一個草案預告你們過去法務部也曾經有一些法令是有做草案預告那為什麼像這麼重要的"},{"start":131.439,"end":158.15,"text":"這個修法你們卻沒有做草案預告所以讓外界一直在那裡揣測到底你們這個法務部的修法內容是什麼修法方向是什麼即便您今天這邊有提供所謂的草案條文的內容可是我們根本沒有看到實際的你的條文的修改的情況是怎麼樣那現在又說是提到行政院應該是現在正在聯席會議吧在討論相關的法案討論了那麼多次到底他的困難點在哪邊"},{"start":159.884,"end":174.927,"text":"各位報告上次沒有預告的是因為這個有時效性就因為很急因為委員會司法部委員會很關心所以我們在搶時效所以我們草案很快就提到行政院了因為這要搶時效的問題但發覺到其實這個問題這個假釋問題其實各方的意見很多"},{"start":183.889,"end":198.506,"text":"包括游玉蘭 游玉蘭那個前立委她也對這個不得甲式A不同的一個意見那我想我們站在一個要廣大意見所以我們修法修得能夠能夠有這個那個回覆民意的要求"},{"start":198.986,"end":201.427,"text":"對好謝謝部長因為事實上我們也看到法務部其實在這個過程當中這些年來你們對於到底能不能假釋的這個議題刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法其實你們的態度也一直在轉變我們這邊有幫你們大概整理了一下你們從2016年當時"},{"start":220.295,"end":228.301,"text":"在有立法委員有提出相關的修法案需要增訂除以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定那時候當然是為了回應小燈泡的這個案事件所以法務部當時就說根據什麼歐洲人權法院的見解無期徒刑而且不得假釋的刑責是對受刑人而言是一種酷刑"},{"start":240.069,"end":256.589,"text":"目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定所以無期徒刑是不得假釋的否則恐怕會違反國際人權是明顯採取反對的立場那麼到了去年那麼這個在公共政策網路參與平台上面其實有數萬名的網友"},{"start":259.592,"end":274.2,"text":"連署說主張要增修刑法271條跟286條要將虐童致死者刻意死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑來就是來進行相關的這個修法就是不得假釋那當時法務部的你們也是回應說這不"},{"start":275.461,"end":292.551,"text":"符合罪責相當的原則同樣是採取反對的立場那麼一直到了今年的6月您才表示說這個部分我們可以研議就是針對虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑死刑並且明文不得假釋"},{"start":293.331,"end":319.367,"text":"然後所以這時候又開始轉變就是說其實可以似乎是可以贊成不得假設的修法可是你們既然贊成了不得假設修法那中間又有些不同差別一開始也是想說可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別然後到去年的這個後來又到了11月又說是可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假設的方向推動修法"},{"start":319.807,"end":332.833,"text":"所以反反复复的我們實在不知道現在法務部你們的立場是什麼你們經過了行政院的這麼多次的會議的討論你們現在的主張是可以跟我們立法委員這裡的提案是採取三級的修法嗎"},{"start":334.035,"end":356.737,"text":"三個層級不得假釋因為三個層級這個當初的立法我們就是因為要那個是限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋就剛才我報告過了其實多次的委員會我有跟委員非常關心所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期或10年以上有期不得假釋所以你們現在又是定在就是說針對重大"},{"start":357.117,"end":382.04,"text":"那另外那個大家也關心那個孽童的那一部分那孽童那時候我們只要說以孽殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面嘛好啦就是說其實我這樣一路上看過來我就覺得說法務部其實在這個議題上面你們的政策其實一直反覆然後也都沒有一個很明確的一個中心思想一個方向所以讓本席認為就是感受到就是說不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動"},{"start":384.061,"end":412.38,"text":"還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力接下來我要談的就是說其實對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論就像我剛剛講的不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院的他們早期的判決其實也都有針對就是無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反有沒有抵觸人性尊嚴的保障有沒有違憲的之餘所以就這個議題來講就是不知道憲法務部的立場是如何"},{"start":412.681,"end":417.097,"text":"然后待会也请司法院的王副秘书长也来表示一下你们的意见"},{"start":418.224,"end":441.797,"text":"我們是不認為就是這個不得假釋這個是有違反人性尊嚴所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴這個我們認為是不構成禁止酷刑工業裡面的酷刑這個我們是認為是這樣因為這個是合乎到法治的一個原則那這個也不是施加身體或心理的一個痛苦那而且這個是對"},{"start":442.737,"end":451.987,"text":"反映國家對重大罪行的一個回應因為這個是屬於人審公分天理難容的一個犯罪嘛好好謝謝部長您的說明請問那個王副秘書長麻煩那麼司法院的立場呢"},{"start":457.087,"end":478.758,"text":"謝謝委員 因為這部分的修法是那個組織機關是那個不是司法院我們尊重那個組織機關的意見那但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要那個思考的就是說那個公正公約第7條還有那個歐洲人權公約第3條他都有禁止酷刑那個處分的那個規定那所以說如果說"},{"start":479.838,"end":502.395,"text":"完全尤其他們在那個歐洲人權也有提過說如果說是那個終身監禁那之後開始執行之後後面完全完全都沒有再一個機會再去那個審查的話這個部分是那個有沒有那個違反酷刑這個時候就會有就是需要討論那個空間那司法院請補充以上意見"},{"start":503.516,"end":522.638,"text":"我想在這個地方我只是要提醒雖然說其他的國家可能對於不得假釋的部分認為是有微細的疑慮可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間從剛剛法務部部長 政部長您的表態認為說其實我們現在訂定不得假釋"},{"start":523.439,"end":547.27,"text":"其實也不見得會有抵觸憲法的這樣的疑慮那麼這個本席這邊的話就是也贊同您的看法那麼最重要的是說我們來看一下就是因為我們很擔心我們現在通過的法律10至89只要是行政院不滿意等等的就會提起釋憲那麼這個部分到底假設制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見"},{"start":550.748,"end":562.567,"text":"定定不得假釋是不是屬於立法者的裁量權未來我們真的如果修法通過無期徒刑不得就是分級的無期徒刑是不得假釋的話會被構成違憲"},{"start":568.482,"end":588.398,"text":"包委員 這個是不是違憲 這個當然我們這個司法院那個基於那個組織力就是我們不是我們組織 我們沒有辦法就是那個來宣告那任何那個法律我覺得當然都是那是大院有制定的那個權限可是就是說任何一個法律那個抽象來講它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查是好 那請"},{"start":593.069,"end":615.23,"text":"部長 如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就不得違憲的話就這個假釋不得假釋 不行不行 不得假釋的話這個部分呢我們的態度 日後如果有憲法訴訟當然我們可以捍衛嘛包括死刑議題我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場嘛這邊本席也要再提醒"},{"start":615.911,"end":632.761,"text":"在這個前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋的時候這個案子基本上是涉及到撤銷假釋的案件當中他曾經提出了一份部分不協同以及部分不同意見書他就明確的指出假釋"},{"start":634.042,"end":650.659,"text":"是屬於法律創設的制度立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間極端的情形的話若不設假釋制度也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利然後不至於構成違憲但是無論如何就是到底要不要假釋我們立法者是有"},{"start":651.4,"end":670.528,"text":"立法形成空間的所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們基本上希望能夠還是尊重我們立法機關立法委員的立法裁量權不要現在動不動我們所通過的法律案然後到了大法官那裡都被宣告違憲這個基本上社會大眾也看不下去以上 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":670,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時3分）主席好！有請鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好！"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，你好！您去年6月在本院備詢的時候就已經明確承諾，你們會研議有關於凌虐未滿7歲兒童致死的行為要不要加重刑度到無期徒刑、死刑，並且明文不得假釋，而且也說相關的修法內容會儘速提出，可是您從去年6月承諾至今，我們都還沒有看到法務部的提案，一直到今天你們的報告裡面才約略提到你們草案的內容、方向，所以在這邊本席想要請教，從去年6月到現在也一年多了，為什麼你們都沒有將草案先預告，讓社會大眾知道你們的修法方向，還有實際的內容是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員，其實我們那個草案在去年已經提報行政院審查，現在是第6次的審查會，當然我們不是只有那一條，我們有好幾條的條文，最重要的就是第七十七條和第七十八條之一，另外因為要配合113年憲判8號及2號的意旨，所以我們做一個修法。現在已經進入尾聲了，審竣會再會銜司法院，之後才會送立法院來審議。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我想提醒部長，因為我有觀察到，法務部現在所提的修法草案都沒有進行草案預告，其實很多機關不管是修法或者是修辦法，都會有草案預告，過去法務部也曾經有一些法令有做草案預告，為什麼像這麼重要的修法，你們卻沒有做草案預告，讓外界一直在那裡揣測，到底法務部的這個修法內容是什麼、修法方向是什麼？即便您今天有提供所謂的草案條文內容，可是我們根本沒有看到條文實際修改的情況是怎麼樣，現在又說是提報行政院，應該正在聯席會議討論相關法案，那討論那麼多次，到底它的困難點在哪邊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，上次沒有預告是因為有時效性，因為司法及法制委員會委員很關心，很急，我們在搶時效，所以我們很快就把草案提到行政院了，後來發覺假釋的問題其實各方的意見很多，包括游毓蘭前立委也對不得假釋有不同的意見，我想我們站在廣納意見的立場，修法要能夠回應民意的要求……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我了解，謝謝部長。事實上，我們也看到法務部在這個過程當中，你們對於到底能不能假釋、刑法到底要不要納入不得假釋的修法，態度也一直在轉變。我們這邊有大概整理了一下，2016年當時有立法委員提出相關的修法草案，要增訂處以死刑或無期徒刑不得假釋的規定，那時候是為了回應小燈泡的事件，法務部當時就說根據歐洲人權法院的見解，無期徒刑且不得假釋的刑責對受刑人而言是一種酷刑，目前我國刑法其他條文也都沒有不得假釋的規定，所以無期徒刑不得假釋恐怕會違反國際人權，是明顯採取反對的立場；到了去年，在公共政策網路參與平台上有數萬名網友連署，主張增修刑法第二百七十一條及第二百八十六條，要將虐童致死者科以死刑或不得假釋的無期徒刑，就是不得假釋，當時法務部回應這不符合罪責相當的原則，同樣是採取反對的立場；一直到了今年的6月，您才表示這個部分可以研議，就是虐兒致死的行為可以比照特別殺人罪來加重刑度到無期徒刑、死刑，並且明文不得假釋，所以這時候又開始轉變，似乎是可以贊成不得假釋的修法。","可是你們既然贊成了不得假釋的修法，中間又有些不同差別，一開始也是講可能可以針對無期徒刑進行層級化的區別，後來到了11月又說可以採取什麼特殊重大暴力犯罪等等不得假釋的方向推動修法，所以反反覆覆的，我們實在不知道現在法務部的立場是什麼。經過行政院這麼多次會議的討論，你們現在的主張跟我們立法委員的提案一樣是採取三級的修法嗎？三個層級，不得假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是，因為三個層級當初的立法，我們要限縮在特殊重大暴力犯罪不得假釋，剛才我已經報告過了，其實多次的委員會委員都非常關心，所以我們限縮在故意殺人或殺人未遂判無期徒刑或十年以上有期徒刑不得假釋。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們現在又定在針對重大暴力犯罪不得假釋？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，另外大家也關心虐童的那一部分，那時候我們就講，虐殺的那一部分當然就涵蓋在殺人的範疇裡面。"],["翁委員曉玲：好啦！其實我這樣一路看過來，我覺得法務部在這個議題上面的政策一直反覆，也都沒有一個很明確的中心思想、一個方向，讓本席感受到的是，不知道法務部到底是不是真心要推動不得假釋的說法……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是要推動啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：還是只是為了要應付民意的壓力？","接下來我要談的是，對於無期徒刑不得假釋的這個議題在國外其實多所討論，就像我剛剛講的，不管在歐洲人權法院或者是在德國聯邦憲法法院，他們早期的判決也都有針對無期徒刑不得假釋是不是有違反、有沒有牴觸人性尊嚴的保障，有沒有違憲之虞。所以就這個議題來講，不知道現在法務部的立場是如何？待會也請司法院王副秘書長表示一下你們的意見。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是不認為不得假釋是……"],["翁委員曉玲：有違反人性尊嚴？所以你們認為不得假釋沒有違反人性尊嚴？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們認為不構成禁止酷刑公約裡面的酷刑，我們認為是這樣，因為這個合乎法治的原則，也不是施加身體或心理的痛苦，而且這個是反映國家對重大罪行的回應，因為這個是屬於人神共憤、天理難容的犯罪嘛！"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長的說明。請問王副秘書長，司法院的立場呢？"],["王副秘書長梅英：謝謝委員，因為這部分的修法主責機關不是司法院，我們尊重主責機關的意見，但是就酷刑這個部分我覺得確實也是要思考的，就是公政公約第七條及歐洲人權公約第三條都有禁止酷刑處分的規定。尤其在歐洲人權公約也有提過，如果是終身監禁，開始執行之後，後面完全都沒有一個機會再去審查的話，這個部分有沒有違反酷刑，這個時候就會有需要討論的空間。司法院謹補充以上意見。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，在這個地方我只是要提醒，雖然說其他國家對於不得假釋的部分認為有些微的疑慮，可是事實上這當然還有解釋的空間，從剛剛法務部鄭部長的表態，認為其實我們現在訂定不得假釋也不見得會有牴觸憲法這樣的疑慮，本席也贊同您的看法。最重要是我們來看一下，因為我們很擔心，我們現在通過的法律，十之八九只要是行政院不滿意等等就會提起釋憲，那麼到底假釋制度是不是屬於立法者的形成自由，是不是可以請兩位表示一下意見？訂定不得假釋的規範是不是屬於立法者的裁量權？未來我們如果真的修法通過分級的無期徒刑不得假釋的話，會不會構成違憲？"],["王副秘書長梅英：王委員，這個是不是違憲，司法院基於這不是我們主責，我們沒有辦法來宣告。任何法律我覺得當然大院都有制定的權限，可是任何一個法律，抽象來講，它事實上都還是要經過違憲審查。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，如果說你們自己提的案子裡面就有無期徒刑不得假釋的話，這個部分呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的態度是，日後如果有憲法訴訟，當然我們應該捍衛，包括死刑議題，我們都是捍衛我們自己的立場。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，很好。本席也要再提醒，前大法官許志雄在司法院大法官釋字第796號解釋中……這個案子基本上是涉及撤銷假釋的案件，他曾經提出了一份部分協同部分不同意見書。他就明確的指出，假釋是屬於法律創設的制度，立法者有廣泛的政策形成空間，極端的情形如果不設假釋制度，也沒有侵害受刑人的憲法權利，不至於構成違憲。但是無論如何，到底要不要假釋，我們立法者是有立法形成空間的，所以本席在這裡要提醒大法官們，基本上還是希望能夠尊重我們立法機關、立法委員的立法裁量權，不要現在我們所通過的法律案，到了大法官那裡動不動都被宣告違憲，這樣基本上社會大眾也看不下去，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，因為吳委員希望他講完之後再休息，所以我們更改一下宣告，吳委員質詢完畢之後我們再……","強哥，請問一下，吳委員說他希望能夠接著質詢，不休息。"],["羅委員智強：沒問題。"],["主席：強哥，那你要休息完再問，還是你要接著問？"],["羅委員智強：接著。"],["主席：好，因為質詢委員剩沒有幾位，我們是不是等整個質詢完畢之後再休息？謝謝。","接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}