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\"沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 707.719, \"end\": 707.999, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 707.999, \"end\": 708.499, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 708.499, \"end\": 708.98, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"願\"}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 708.98, \"end\": 709.76, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 709.76, \"end\": 710.06, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 710.06, \"end\": 710.3, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 710.3, \"end\": 710.681, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 710.681, \"end\": 710.981, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 710.981, \"end\": 711.341, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 711.341, \"end\": 711.501, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 711.501, \"end\": 711.781, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 781.236, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 781.236, \"end\": 781.376, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 781.376, \"end\": 781.396, \"score\": 0.187}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,511 --> 00:00:06,590\n請部長麻煩部長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:07,592 --> 00:00:32,555\n部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會喔那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾喔一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲\n\n3\n00:00:33,275 --> 00:00:52,387\n我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場\n\n4\n00:00:54,198 --> 00:01:19,117\n那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇\n\n5\n00:01:20,498 --> 00:01:48,419\n所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁\n\n6\n00:01:50,089 --> 00:02:17,676\n世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁\n\n7\n00:02:18,576 --> 00:02:32,267\n但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對\n\n8\n00:02:34,229 --> 00:02:58,345\n我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量\n\n9\n00:03:00,270 --> 00:03:21,058\n我告訴你部長我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼部長\n\n10\n00:03:22,998 --> 00:03:49,597\n後患無窮以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍把詐騙集團全部都可以逃都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長我不是要為難您\n\n11\n00:03:51,414 --> 00:04:09,127\n我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他Wecan'tdomore是這樣嗎Canwedomore行政部門可以多做什麼部長\n\n12\n00:04:10,659 --> 00:04:38,379\n委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長\n\n13\n00:04:39,460 --> 00:05:00,327\n我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過\n\n14\n00:05:04,929 --> 00:05:21,164\n不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們\n\n15\n00:05:23,085 --> 00:05:52,305\n讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整\n\n16\n00:05:53,085 --> 00:06:20,663\n我相信我們的召委出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通都可以對話而不是只有反對好嗎這是我的期許下面終身監禁的制度我支持但是草率倉促的修法我反對我的主張要有院版要有公聽會也要有配套才能上路下一頁\n\n17\n00:06:22,140 --> 00:06:34,694\n這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧\n\n18\n00:06:35,723 --> 00:06:57,094\n我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案\n\n19\n00:06:59,454 --> 00:07:11,716\n的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑\n\n20\n00:07:13,689 --> 00:07:34,268\n這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有\n\n21\n00:07:35,089 --> 00:07:58,421\n然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁\n\n22\n00:07:59,882 --> 00:08:24,118\n這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲\n\n23\n00:08:24,998 --> 00:08:53,026\n朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YESYESYES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NONONO\n\n24\n00:08:54,383 --> 00:09:03,219\n要正院版你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院院還要再會嫌司法院\n\n25\n00:09:04,537 --> 00:09:29,198\n我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit\n\n26\n00:09:30,098 --> 00:09:54,666\n這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎\n\n27\n00:09:56,366 --> 00:10:20,756\n這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好最後兩頁喔下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁\n\n28\n00:10:21,756 --> 00:10:48,663\n所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個\n\n29\n00:10:50,499 --> 00:11:12,486\n所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁\n\n30\n00:11:13,326 --> 00:11:26,597\n法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理\n\n31\n00:11:27,682 --> 00:11:46,978\n受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yesyesyes但是草率仓促的修法\n\n32\n00:11:47,719 --> 00:12:15,494\n沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路\n\n33\n00:12:16,215 --> 00:12:35,880\n只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛\n\n34\n00:12:37,540 --> 00:13:01,396\n我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n511\t6590\t請部長麻煩部長委員好\n7592\t32555\t部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會喔那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾喔一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲\n33275\t52387\t我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場\n54198\t79117\t那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇\n80498\t108419\t所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁\n110089\t137676\t世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁\n138576\t152267\t但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對\n154229\t178345\t我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量\n180270\t201058\t我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼 部長\n202998\t229597\t後患無窮 以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到 大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到 即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍 把詐騙集團全部都可以逃 都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任 還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有 負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長 我不是要為難您\n231414\t249127\t我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長\n250659\t278379\t委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長\n279460\t300327\t我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過\n304929\t321164\t不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們\n323085\t352305\t讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整\n353085\t380663\t我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁\n382140\t394694\t這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧\n395723\t417094\t我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案\n419454\t431716\t的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑\n433689\t454268\t這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有\n455089\t478421\t然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁\n479882\t504118\t這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲\n504998\t533026\t朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YES YES YES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NO NO NO\n534383\t543219\t要正院版 你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院\n544537\t569198\t我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit\n570098\t594666\t這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎\n596366\t620756\t這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁喔 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁\n621756\t648663\t所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個\n650499\t672486\t所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁\n673326\t686597\t法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理\n687682\t706978\t受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法\n707719\t735494\t沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路\n736215\t755880\t只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛\n757540\t781396\t我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n","txt":"請部長麻煩部長委員好\n部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會喔那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾喔一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲\n我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場\n那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇\n所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁\n世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁\n但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對\n我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量\n我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼 部長\n後患無窮 以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到 大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到 即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍 把詐騙集團全部都可以逃 都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任 還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有 負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長 我不是要為難您\n我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長\n委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長\n我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過\n不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們\n讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整\n我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁\n這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧\n我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案\n的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑\n這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有\n然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁\n這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲\n朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YES YES YES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NO NO NO\n要正院版 你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院\n我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit\n這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎\n這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁喔 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁\n所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個\n所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁\n法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理\n受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法\n沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路\n只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛\n我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.511 --> 00:06.590\n請部長麻煩部長委員好\n\n00:07.592 --> 00:32.555\n部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會喔那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾喔一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲\n\n00:33.275 --> 00:52.387\n我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場\n\n00:54.198 --> 01:19.117\n那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇\n\n01:20.498 --> 01:48.419\n所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁\n\n01:50.089 --> 02:17.676\n世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁\n\n02:18.576 --> 02:32.267\n但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對\n\n02:34.229 --> 02:58.345\n我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量\n\n03:00.270 --> 03:21.058\n我告訴你部長我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼部長\n\n03:22.998 --> 03:49.597\n後患無窮以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍把詐騙集團全部都可以逃都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長我不是要為難您\n\n03:51.414 --> 04:09.127\n我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他Wecan'tdomore是這樣嗎Canwedomore行政部門可以多做什麼部長\n\n04:10.659 --> 04:38.379\n委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長\n\n04:39.460 --> 05:00.327\n我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過\n\n05:04.929 --> 05:21.164\n不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們\n\n05:23.085 --> 05:52.305\n讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整\n\n05:53.085 --> 06:20.663\n我相信我們的召委出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通都可以對話而不是只有反對好嗎這是我的期許下面終身監禁的制度我支持但是草率倉促的修法我反對我的主張要有院版要有公聽會也要有配套才能上路下一頁\n\n06:22.140 --> 06:34.694\n這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧\n\n06:35.723 --> 06:57.094\n我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案\n\n06:59.454 --> 07:11.716\n的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑\n\n07:13.689 --> 07:34.268\n這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有\n\n07:35.089 --> 07:58.421\n然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁\n\n07:59.882 --> 08:24.118\n這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲\n\n08:24.998 --> 08:53.026\n朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YESYESYES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NONONO\n\n08:54.383 --> 09:03.219\n要正院版你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院院還要再會嫌司法院\n\n09:04.537 --> 09:29.198\n我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit\n\n09:30.098 --> 09:54.666\n這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎\n\n09:56.366 --> 10:20.756\n這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好最後兩頁喔下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁\n\n10:21.756 --> 10:48.663\n所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個\n\n10:50.499 --> 11:12.486\n所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁\n\n11:13.326 --> 11:26.597\n法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理\n\n11:27.682 --> 11:46.978\n受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yesyesyes但是草率仓促的修法\n\n11:47.719 --> 12:15.494\n沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路\n\n12:16.215 --> 12:35.880\n只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛\n\n12:37.540 --> 13:01.396\n我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.511,"end":6.59,"text":"請部長麻煩部長委員好"},{"start":7.592,"end":32.555,"text":"部長大家辛苦了我想司法法治委員會從這一屆期開始到今天還有明天恐怕是就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末的最後兩次的開會喔那我還是要表達一下立場我還是很遺憾喔一再有委員為個案在質詢台上來為難您我再一次呼籲"},{"start":33.275,"end":52.387,"text":"我們在司法法治委員會我們要就制度面而不要講個別的案件尊重司法的獨立辦案政治力不要干預司法我再一次強調即便這已經說了N遍還是要表達本席當然也是民進黨團的立場"},{"start":54.198,"end":79.117,"text":"那今天的主題進入之前我先來拋出這個疑問我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題民眾黨的提案勾串共犯或證人要免羈押的這個事情這個修法呢涉及為一人修法為個案開脫大開法制的倒車甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇"},{"start":80.498,"end":108.419,"text":"所以檢察界檢察官律師界大家再一次繼法庭直播的第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯我想我們反對為個案的修法也反對這種讓黑化台灣縱容犯罪的粗糙修法我們的立場是一致的下一頁"},{"start":110.089,"end":137.676,"text":"世界各國都有這樣的羈押室友我也不再贅述再來下一頁這也是你們整理出來的如果這個修法倉促的通過嫌疑犯全放詐騙集團笑嘻嘻販毒集團抓不到虐童的犯行可能被輕放共諜案也好高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法下一頁"},{"start":138.576,"end":152.267,"text":"但我要問的問題是當社會不滿立法院要強推我看到行政院法務部有正式的聲明來反對"},{"start":154.229,"end":178.345,"text":"我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長但我依舊會是司法法制委員會的成員我就要以這個勾串免羈押的這一個修法即便引爆了社會的不滿但是立院如果還是要強推你們能做什麼對於法務部來講你們就是發了一個聲明我們不同意不支持請大院考量"},{"start":180.27,"end":201.058,"text":"我告訴你 部長 我很擔心我們這一年半來都是這樣下個會期他們就是繼續強推不聽社會的意見而且不只強推 是快速推政院沒有其他的方式了嗎你們除了發聲明之外你們能做什麼 部長"},{"start":202.998,"end":229.597,"text":"後患無窮 以後爛攤也要你們收拾罪犯抓不到 大家都來罵法務部詐騙案抓不到 即便通過了打炸四法但是來補了這一槍 把詐騙集團全部都可以逃 都可以放最後還是行政部門承擔立法院的不負責任 還是行政部門要承擔我們唯有 負有維護治安的責任我真的很語重心長 我不是要為難您"},{"start":231.414,"end":249.127,"text":"我要提醒行政院我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步認為立法院提出來的二修的法律我們認為不可以我們只要說我們的立場就好了其他We can't do more是這樣嗎Can we do more行政部門可以多做什麼 部長"},{"start":250.659,"end":278.379,"text":"委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的最擔心的的確這個如果勾串證人這個是羈押的事由最核心最核心就是勾理由就是勾串證人跟因為這個案件辦得成辦不成就是在這個是最核心的如果把最核心的這些的羈押的理由拿掉幾乎無案可判幾乎只能辦現金要抓到的所以我們都在說他的可怕他的後患無窮我在這裡提醒部長"},{"start":279.46,"end":300.327,"text":"我們這一年半來我也一直在反省我作為黨編的三個會期當我們只是反對當我們只是期期以為不可他們還是硬幹我希望法務部司法院不是只有發發聲明而已部長你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過"},{"start":304.929,"end":321.164,"text":"不要放棄任何的努力我知道很困難我今天站在即將卸任的黨鞭的身份我真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了如果只是束手無策他就是強推不要忘了最後善後的是我們擦屁股的是我們"},{"start":323.085,"end":352.305,"text":"讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果負責任的執政黨我們擔不起即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠好好去想這個問題下個會期本來很擔心進負二讀暫時沒有但是下個會期就是建在弦上的修法而且是惡修我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對然後在修的時候莫可奈何我希望調整"},{"start":353.085,"end":380.663,"text":"我相信我們的召委 出身檢察界他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見大家都可以溝通 都可以對話而不是只有反對 好嗎這是我的期許 下面終身監禁的制度 我支持但是草率倉促的修法 我反對我的主張 要有院版 要有公聽會也要有配套 才能上路 下一頁"},{"start":382.14,"end":394.694,"text":"這個是憲判八的結果所以死刑核限之後我們要補強相關的法制下一頁所以說吳思瑤多次說這張PBT我已經放了大概十次了吧"},{"start":395.723,"end":417.094,"text":"我們要尊重憲法判決的結果啟動制度的配套要修法就修法而且要從長計議妥善溝通設立配套要避免冤獄的產生要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化就是今天吳宗雄委員所提的這個議案"},{"start":419.454,"end":431.716,"text":"的終身監禁的制度所以落實除了刑法刑事訴訟法法院組織法乃至於監獄刑刑法都要修今天的無期徒刑"},{"start":433.689,"end":454.268,"text":"這個終身監禁不得假釋的制度喔你們有願版嘛對不對有不版嘛好那是只有刑法嗎針對整個憲判八的相關的法制配套只有針對刑法提出來嗎不版還有其他哪些的演繹就刑法就只有刑法監獄刑刑法也有"},{"start":455.089,"end":478.421,"text":"然後呢法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套那是司法院好所以我期待未來我也在這裡對於我們的召委還有其他司法委員會的成員來呼籲整個制度要配套是四個法可能都要一起來思考而不要只單從某一步法就為快而快下一頁"},{"start":479.882,"end":504.118,"text":"這個是民間有很多的聽看聽的呼籲既然民間有這麼多的聲音就讓聲音來百花齊放我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台是革新制度的最重要的場域公聽會是有必要的呼籲"},{"start":504.998,"end":533.026,"text":"朝野各黨支持也呼籲主席能夠有公聽會的召開下一頁回到政策面我再一次說建立終身監禁的制度YES YES YES但是草率倉促的修法不聽社會的建議單一從一步法直接為快而快為修而修NO NO NO"},{"start":534.383,"end":543.219,"text":"要正院版 你們已經在進行當中未來不版送行政院 院還要再會嫌司法院"},{"start":544.537,"end":569.198,"text":"我們來加緊進行但是我認為這個重大的司法制度的變革要有院版來並案審查您同意嗎對不對第二個要公聽會如果委員對自己的版本有信心院版對自己的制度有信心共同來接受社會各界的比拼一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好這不是誰的credit"},{"start":570.098,"end":594.666,"text":"這是國家制度我們一起讓他共好第三要配套不只修刑法還要分責偏特別刑法的配套還有執行機關矯正單位的所有制度配套簡單來講配套分兩部分一部分是法制面的配套一部分是我們執行實務面的配套您同意我這三個訴求嗎"},{"start":596.366,"end":620.756,"text":"這樣如果說能夠這樣做的話是非常周延的好 最後兩頁喔 下一頁我想現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑有分在很多個法但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準所以只處理分級不處理這些內容把所有的裁量權都丟給法官下一頁"},{"start":621.756,"end":648.663,"text":"所以說未來法官他不限罪名都有法官自己去裁量您認為會不會造成法官難為甚至法官就不宣告不宣判他就形同虛設了會不會有這個後果可能我們是擔心因為我們是一直認為這個這個假釋假釋以後這是執行面的問題這不不是一個因為沒辦法去預知後來的他的教化的一個一個一個那個"},{"start":650.499,"end":672.486,"text":"所以我們限縮在故意殺人跟傷害生命法律的這部分所以這部分我們是限縮在這種因為這是老闆最擔心的因為它非常的危險所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的下一頁最後回到這一頁"},{"start":673.326,"end":686.597,"text":"法規面要配套不是只修刑法而且不是只聚焦77條就能夠一步到位而甚至對於未來實務的執行面對於整個監所的管理"},{"start":687.682,"end":706.978,"text":"受刑人的教化它涉及人力物力空间跟预算的投入都需要完整的制度配套再一次呼吁建立终身监禁的制度回应社会的诉求yes yes yes但是草率仓促的修法"},{"start":707.719,"end":735.494,"text":"沒有等願版來就直接用委員的版本來直接審查我認為這會有很大的風險所以要公聽會要制度的配套要等願版再次提出我的呼籲然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押到這一題終身監禁的制度我都希望法務部我們不能夠再走回過去的老路"},{"start":736.215,"end":755.88,"text":"只是反對我們要想出新的方法我作為執政黨編我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續的對話或是引進民間的聲音一起來督促立法院把法修好而不是把法搞爛"},{"start":757.54,"end":781.396,"text":"我們也要向社會論述也要向國會尋求合作這是我這一年半來的反思否則如果只是提出反對的意見再也強推最後還是我們要收拾爛攤我不樂見我們不能改變別人我們先改變我們自己的做法我知道很難但我們一起加油好嗎好謝謝部長謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長、大家辛苦了。我想司法及法制委員會從這一屆會期開始到今天還有明天，恐怕就是對於司法院還有法務部這個會期末最後兩次開會，我還是要表達一下立場。我還是很遺憾，一再有委員為個案在質詢臺上為難您。我再一次呼籲，我們在司法及法制委員會要就制度面，而不要講個別的案件。尊重司法的獨立辦案，政治力不要干預司法，我再一次強調，即便這已經說了N遍，還是要表達本席，當然也是民進黨團的立場。","進入今天的主題之前，我先來拋出這個疑問，我知道之前的委員也都有多所垂詢這個議題。民眾黨提案「勾串共犯或證人要免羈押」的這個修法，涉及為一人修法、為個案開脫，大開法治的倒車，甚至會成為犯罪的幫兇，所以檢察界、檢察官、律師界大家繼法庭直播第一波對民眾黨大聲撻伐之後，再一次又開啟了法界第二次的大串聯。我想我們反對為個案修法，也反對這種黑化臺灣、縱容犯罪的粗糙修法，我們的立場是一致的。","本頁簡報的內容是世界各國都有這樣的羈押事由，我也不再贅述。再來下一頁，這也是你們整理出來的，如果這個修法倉促地通過，嫌疑犯全放，詐騙集團笑嘻嘻、販毒集團抓不到、虐童犯可能被輕放，共諜案也好，高科技的洩密也都會受惠於這種粗糙的修法。但我要問的問題是，當社會不滿，立法院要強推，我看到行政院、法務部有發正式的聲明反對，我即將卸任民進黨團的幹事長，但我依舊會是司法及法制委員會的成員，這個勾串免羈押的修法即便引爆了社會的不滿，但是立院如果還是要強推，你們能做什麼？對於法務部來講，你們就是發了一個聲明，說你們不同意、不支持，請大院考量。我告訴你，部長，我很擔心，我們這一年半來都是這樣，下個會期他們就是繼續強推，不聽社會的意見，而且不只強推，是快速推，政院沒有其他的方式了嗎？除了發聲明之外，你們能做什麼？部長，後患無窮，以後爛攤也要你們收拾，罪犯抓不到，大家都來罵法務部，詐騙案抓不到，即便通過了打詐四法，但是補了這一槍，詐騙集團全部都可以逃、都可以放，最後還是行政部門承擔。立法院的不負責任還是行政部門要承擔！我們負有維護治安的責任，我真的很語重心長，我不是要為難您，我要提醒行政院，我們不能像過去一樣原地踏步，認為立法院提出來惡修的法律，我們認為不可以，只要說我們的立場就好了，其他We can't do more，是這樣嗎？Can we do more？行政部門可以多做什麼，部長？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員提這個問題就是我們最擔心的，的確羈押的事由最核心的理由就是勾串證人跟……因為案件辦得成或辦不成，這個是最核心的，如果把最核心的這些羈押的理由拿掉，幾乎無案可辦，幾乎只能辦現行犯抓到的……"],["吳委員思瑤：所以我們都在說它的可怕……"],["鄭部長銘謙：非常可怕。"],["吳委員思瑤：它後患無窮。我在這裡提醒部長，這一年半來，我也一直在反省，我作為黨鞭的三個會期，當我們只是反對，當我們只是期期以為不可，他們還是硬幹，我希望法務部、司法院不是只有發發聲明而已。部長，你們有沒有去找提案的委員溝通過？不要放棄任何的努力！我知道很困難，我今天以即將卸任的黨鞭身分，真的覺得我們不能再這樣下去了。如果只是束手無策，他就是強推，不要忘了，最後善後的是我們、擦屁股的是我們。讓全社會去承擔整個治安惡化的後果，作為負責任的執政黨，我們擔不起，即便我們的在野黨一點都不對國家忠誠，好好去想這個問題。本來很擔心逕付二讀，暫時沒有，但是下個會期就是箭在弦上的修法，而且是惡修。我們不能只停留在發聲明說反對，然後在修的時候莫可奈何。我希望調整，我相信我們的召委出身檢察界，他一定也能夠有不同面向的意見，大家都可以溝通、都可以對話，而不是只有反對，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是我的期許。再來，終身監禁的制度，我支持，但是草率倉促的修法，我反對！我的主張：要有院版、要有公聽會，也要有配套才能上路，這個是憲判8的結果，所以死刑合憲之後，我們要補強相關的法制。","這張PPT我已經放了大概10次了吧，我們要尊重憲法判決的結果，啟動制度的配套，要修法就修法，而且要從長計議、妥善溝通、設立配套，要避免冤獄的產生，要防堵犯罪人來逃避刑責，更要推動無期徒刑假釋制度的層級化，就是今天吳宗憲委員所提的這個議案──終身監禁的制度。所以除了落實刑法、刑事訴訟法、法院組織法，乃至於監獄行刑法都要修，今天的無期徒刑終身監禁不得假釋的制度，你們有院版嘛，對不對？有部版嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，那是只有刑法，針對整個憲判8相關的法制配套，只有針對刑法提出來嗎？部版還有哪些其他的研議？"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是刑法。"],["吳委員思瑤：就只有刑法？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有監獄行刑法。"],["吳委員思瑤：監獄行刑法也有，然後呢？法院組織法跟刑事訴訟法有沒有一致配套？"],["鄭部長銘謙：那是司法院的主管法規。"],["吳委員思瑤：是司法院，好，所以我期待未來，我也在這裡對我們的召委還有其他司法及法制委員會的成員呼籲，整個制度要配套，是四個法可能都要一起來思考，而不要只單從某一部法就為快而快。","再來是民間有很多停看聽的呼籲，既然民間有這麼多的聲音，就讓聲音來百花齊放。我相信立法院應當是促進對話的平台，是革新制度最重要的場域，公聽會是有必要的，呼籲朝野各黨支持，也呼籲主席能夠召開公聽會。","回到政策面，我再一次說，建立終身監禁的制度Yes、Yes、Yes！但是草率倉促的修法，不聽社會的建議，單一從一部法直接為快而快、為修而修，No、No、No！要政院版，你們已經在進行當中，未來部版送行政院，院還要再會銜司法院，我們來加緊進行，但是我認為這個重大的司法制度變革要有院版來併案審查，您同意嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：第二，要公聽會，如果委員對自己的版本有信心，院版對自己的制度有信心，共同來接受社會各界的比評，一起來被檢視什麼制度比較好，這不是誰的credit，這是國家制度，我們一起讓它共好。第三，要配套，不只修刑法，還要分則編、特別刑法的配套，還有執行機關、矯正單位的所有制度配套。簡單來講，配套分兩部分，一部分是法制面的配套，一部分是執行實務面的配套，您同意我這三個訴求嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果能夠這樣做的話是非常周延。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，最後兩頁，現在法規可處死刑跟無期徒刑分在很多個法，但是藍白的版本沒有一個基準，所以只處理分級，不處理這些內容，把所有的裁量權都丟給法官，所以未來不限罪名都由法官自己去裁量。您認為會不會造成法官難為，甚至法官就不宣告、不宣判，它就形同虛設了，會不會可能有這個後果？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是擔心，因為我們一直認為假釋是執行面的問題，這個不是一個裁判……因為沒辦法去預知後來他教化的……"],["吳委員思瑤：可能……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們是限縮在故意殺人跟……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，傷害生命法益。"],["鄭部長銘謙：傷害生命法益這部分。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這部分我們是限縮在這種，因為這是老百姓最擔心的，他非常的危險。"],["吳委員思瑤：是、好，所以最後矯正機關的配套也是需要的。最後回到這一頁，法規面要配套，不是只修刑法，而且不是只聚焦第七十七條就能夠一步到位，甚至對於未來實務的執行面，對於整個監所的管理、受刑人的教化，它涉及人力、物力、空間跟預算的投入，都需要完整的制度配套。再一次呼籲，建立終身監禁的制度，回應社會的訴求，Yes、Yes、Yes！但是草率倉促的修法，沒有等院版來，就用委員的版本來直接審查，我認為這會有很大的風險，所以要公聽會，要制度的配套，要等院版，再次提出我的呼籲。","然後回到我剛剛從第一題就是勾串免羈押，到這一題終身監禁的制度，我都希望法務部不能夠再走回過去的老路，只是反對，我們要想出新的方法。我作為執政黨鞭，我也很努力創造機會跟在野黨持續對話或是引進民間的聲音，一起來督促立法院把法修好，而不是把法搞爛。我們要向社會論述，也要向國會尋求合作，這是我這一年半來的反思，否則如果只是提出反對的意見，在野強推，最後還是我們要收拾爛攤，我不樂見。我們不能改變別人，我們先改變我們自己的作法，我知道很難，但我們一起加油，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請羅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":350,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-25","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","羅智強","王義川","陳培瑜","王鴻薇","沈發惠","楊瓊瓔","翁曉玲","吳思瑤"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2025-08-27"],"gazette_id":"1147602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員陳秀寳\n等21人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員許宇甄等18人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(五)委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員\n邱鎮軍等19 人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 七) 委員羅智強等18 人擬具\n「中華民國刑法第七十七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員吳宗憲等20人擬具「中華民國刑法部分\n條文修正草案」案；二、繼續併案審查(一)委員傅崐萁等25人、(二)委員郭昱晴等18人分別擬具\n「刑事訴訟法第七十一條及第一百七十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1147602_00002"}}}