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276.122, \"end\": 276.302, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 276.302, \"end\": 276.522, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 276.522, \"end\": 276.843, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 276.843, \"end\": 277.023, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 277.023, \"end\": 277.143, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 277.143, \"end\": 277.303, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 277.303, \"end\": 277.323, \"score\": 0.006}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,076 --> 00:00:05,542\n好謝謝主席先請主計長還有財政部長主計長財政部長兩位長官請\n\n2\n00:00:16,741 --> 00:00:30,074\n主委長部長兩位好先問主委長因為這個財化法的修法所以行政院先前打算統三今年地方的一般性補助款25%\n\n3\n00:00:32,536 --> 00:00:56,170\n主委長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調中央政府不是魔術師不會變魔術也不會無中生有因此地方政府可以先行用稅計勝於舉債因應明年再依照新版的財化法去償還舉債但是我們看一下螢幕這兩張主委長你看得出來這兩張有什麼蹊蹺你看得出來嗎\n\n4\n00:01:03,737 --> 00:01:24,700\n或許你看不出來我是照你寫的其實這兩張表格的意思就是代表說政府從一開始就是在用不實的一個話術在威脅各地方政府明明你就無需另籌裁員你看你這邊寫你無需另籌裁員\n\n5\n00:01:26,101 --> 00:01:42,800\n就可以來支付直轄縣市的政府的一般性補助款這636億但主計總署你卻是配合行政院一路在雙簧演出主計長你身為國家最高的主計機關\n\n6\n00:01:44,625 --> 00:02:08,662\n你這樣子的一個這樣子的一個做法配合行政院違法的去這個刪減各地方政府的地方性補助款你認為你這樣做對嗎沒有這主要是因為當初要通案三減九四九嘛組長通案三九有刪這個一般性補助款嗎沒有這2500多有被刪嗎\n\n7\n00:02:11,391 --> 00:02:22,421\n他說要我們自行刪減但是我們那個通案的項目都已經刪減每個有的百分之六十也有八十以上的部分所以沒有辦法再刪減不是我們當初不是說裁員的問題而是我們沒有辦法刪減的空間是沒有刪減的空間所以就是說\n\n8\n00:02:36,475 --> 00:03:01,198\n你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛\n\n9\n00:03:02,438 --> 00:03:26,959\n你就說你可以用追加預算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告訴他們說我要刪你的地方的一般性補助款現在你又倒過頭來說我用追加預算的方式不是按照道理來把我們統3的預算給它增加回去所以我的意思是要告訴你不要用這種方式來好像要擒勒我們要把這636億要給你通過\n\n10\n00:03:29,941 --> 00:03:59,037\n我想當初邱詠卿明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嘛這樣作為違法違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好啦好啦夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請那個財政部\n\n11\n00:04:01,295 --> 00:04:16,810\n委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣\n\n12\n00:04:17,999 --> 00:04:37,323\n跟委員報告對公視的這個爭議的問題有三項我們在法案通過的時候記者會就提出你然後副議員提出但是在三個問題裡面兩個都已經地方政府有共識另外一個法條因為是白紙黑字寫的這個部分財政部沒有權責去擴權謝謝再看民委員報告等一下書面報告\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2076\t5542\t好謝謝主席先請主計長還有財政部長主計長財政部長兩位長官請\n16741\t30074\t主委長 部長兩位好先問主委長因為這個財化法的修法所以行政院先前打算統三今年地方的一般性補助款25%\n32536\t56170\t主委長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調中央政府不是魔術師不會變魔術也不會無中生有因此地方政府可以先行用稅計勝於舉債因應明年再依照新版的財化法去償還舉債但是我們看一下螢幕這兩張主委長你看得出來這兩張有什麼蹊蹺你看得出來嗎\n63737\t84700\t或許你看不出來我是照你寫的其實這兩張表格的意思就是代表說政府從一開始就是在用不實的一個話術在威脅各地方政府明明你就無需另籌裁員你看你這邊寫你無需另籌裁員\n86101\t102800\t就可以來支付直轄縣市的政府的一般性補助款這636億但主計總署你卻是配合行政院一路在雙簧演出主計長你身為國家最高的主計機關\n104625\t128662\t你這樣子的一個 這樣子的一個做法配合行政院違法的去這個刪減各地方政府的地方性補助款你認為你這樣做對嗎沒有 這主要是因為當初要通案三減九四九嘛組長 通案三九有刪這個一般性補助款嗎沒有 這2500多有被刪嗎\n131391\t142421\t他說要我們自行刪減但是我們那個通案的項目都已經刪減每個有的百分之六十也有八十以上的部分所以沒有辦法再刪減不是 我們當初不是說裁員的問題而是我們沒有辦法刪減的空間是沒有刪減的空間所以就是說\n156475\t181198\t你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛\n182438\t206959\t你就說你可以用追加預算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告訴他們說我要刪你的地方的一般性補助款現在你又倒過頭來說我用追加預算的方式不是 按照道理來把我們統3的預算給它增加回去所以我的意思是要告訴你不要用這種方式來好像要擒勒我們要把這636億要給你通過\n209941\t239037\t我想當初邱詠卿明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嘛這樣作為違法違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好啦好啦夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請那個財政部\n241295\t256810\t委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣\n257999\t277323\t跟委員報告對公視的這個爭議的問題有三項我們在法案通過的時候記者會就提出你然後副議員提出但是在三個問題裡面兩個都已經地方政府有共識另外一個法條因為是白紙黑字寫的這個部分財政部沒有權責去擴權謝謝再看民委員報告等一下書面報告\n","txt":"好謝謝主席先請主計長還有財政部長主計長財政部長兩位長官請\n主委長 部長兩位好先問主委長因為這個財化法的修法所以行政院先前打算統三今年地方的一般性補助款25%\n主委長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調中央政府不是魔術師不會變魔術也不會無中生有因此地方政府可以先行用稅計勝於舉債因應明年再依照新版的財化法去償還舉債但是我們看一下螢幕這兩張主委長你看得出來這兩張有什麼蹊蹺你看得出來嗎\n或許你看不出來我是照你寫的其實這兩張表格的意思就是代表說政府從一開始就是在用不實的一個話術在威脅各地方政府明明你就無需另籌裁員你看你這邊寫你無需另籌裁員\n就可以來支付直轄縣市的政府的一般性補助款這636億但主計總署你卻是配合行政院一路在雙簧演出主計長你身為國家最高的主計機關\n你這樣子的一個 這樣子的一個做法配合行政院違法的去這個刪減各地方政府的地方性補助款你認為你這樣做對嗎沒有 這主要是因為當初要通案三減九四九嘛組長 通案三九有刪這個一般性補助款嗎沒有 這2500多有被刪嗎\n他說要我們自行刪減但是我們那個通案的項目都已經刪減每個有的百分之六十也有八十以上的部分所以沒有辦法再刪減不是 我們當初不是說裁員的問題而是我們沒有辦法刪減的空間是沒有刪減的空間所以就是說\n你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛\n你就說你可以用追加預算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告訴他們說我要刪你的地方的一般性補助款現在你又倒過頭來說我用追加預算的方式不是 按照道理來把我們統3的預算給它增加回去所以我的意思是要告訴你不要用這種方式來好像要擒勒我們要把這636億要給你通過\n我想當初邱詠卿明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嘛這樣作為違法違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好啦好啦夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請那個財政部\n委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣\n跟委員報告對公視的這個爭議的問題有三項我們在法案通過的時候記者會就提出你然後副議員提出但是在三個問題裡面兩個都已經地方政府有共識另外一個法條因為是白紙黑字寫的這個部分財政部沒有權責去擴權謝謝再看民委員報告等一下書面報告\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.076 --> 00:05.542\n好謝謝主席先請主計長還有財政部長主計長財政部長兩位長官請\n\n00:16.741 --> 00:30.074\n主委長部長兩位好先問主委長因為這個財化法的修法所以行政院先前打算統三今年地方的一般性補助款25%\n\n00:32.536 --> 00:56.170\n主委長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調中央政府不是魔術師不會變魔術也不會無中生有因此地方政府可以先行用稅計勝於舉債因應明年再依照新版的財化法去償還舉債但是我們看一下螢幕這兩張主委長你看得出來這兩張有什麼蹊蹺你看得出來嗎\n\n01:03.737 --> 01:24.700\n或許你看不出來我是照你寫的其實這兩張表格的意思就是代表說政府從一開始就是在用不實的一個話術在威脅各地方政府明明你就無需另籌裁員你看你這邊寫你無需另籌裁員\n\n01:26.101 --> 01:42.800\n就可以來支付直轄縣市的政府的一般性補助款這636億但主計總署你卻是配合行政院一路在雙簧演出主計長你身為國家最高的主計機關\n\n01:44.625 --> 02:08.662\n你這樣子的一個這樣子的一個做法配合行政院違法的去這個刪減各地方政府的地方性補助款你認為你這樣做對嗎沒有這主要是因為當初要通案三減九四九嘛組長通案三九有刪這個一般性補助款嗎沒有這2500多有被刪嗎\n\n02:11.391 --> 02:22.421\n他說要我們自行刪減但是我們那個通案的項目都已經刪減每個有的百分之六十也有八十以上的部分所以沒有辦法再刪減不是我們當初不是說裁員的問題而是我們沒有辦法刪減的空間是沒有刪減的空間所以就是說\n\n02:36.475 --> 03:01.198\n你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛\n\n03:02.438 --> 03:26.959\n你就說你可以用追加預算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告訴他們說我要刪你的地方的一般性補助款現在你又倒過頭來說我用追加預算的方式不是按照道理來把我們統3的預算給它增加回去所以我的意思是要告訴你不要用這種方式來好像要擒勒我們要把這636億要給你通過\n\n03:29.941 --> 03:59.037\n我想當初邱詠卿明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嘛這樣作為違法違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好啦好啦夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請那個財政部\n\n04:01.295 --> 04:16.810\n委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣\n\n04:17.999 --> 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我們當初不是說裁員的問題而是我們沒有辦法刪減的空間是沒有刪減的空間所以就是說"},{"start":156.475,"end":181.198,"text":"你這個邏輯不通啦所以其實你這樣扭曲財化法修法的正當性你應該把政府真實的一個財政狀況告訴大家總預算明明增加這麼多增加了一千多億將近兩千億你還可以去勤勒地方政府我就要刪你的一般性補助款如果那個時候你記得嗎不是跟你們講嗎趕快追加預算嘛"},{"start":182.438,"end":206.959,"text":"你就說你可以用追加預算的方式但是你擒勒地方政府告訴他們說我要刪你的地方的一般性補助款現在你又倒過頭來說我用追加預算的方式不是 按照道理來把我們統3的預算給它增加回去所以我的意思是要告訴你不要用這種方式來好像要擒勒我們要把這636億要給你通過"},{"start":209.941,"end":239.037,"text":"我想當初邱詠卿明確告訴你們你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後你才做這個事情把原本你就應該做的你一直拖到現在你才做所以當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛不是去把它扣除我們地方政府的一般性補助款嘛這樣作為違法違法你知道嗎你沒有依法行政我告訴你好啦好啦夠了已經跟你講很清楚了請那個財政部"},{"start":241.295,"end":256.81,"text":"委員好部長你在週一的時候8月25發新聞稿提到說新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理所以可能我們這個統籌分配稅款無法全數分配是不是這樣"},{"start":257.999,"end":277.323,"text":"跟委員報告對公視的這個爭議的問題有三項我們在法案通過的時候記者會就提出你然後副議員提出但是在三個問題裡面兩個都已經地方政府有共識另外一個法條因為是白紙黑字寫的這個部分財政部沒有權責去擴權謝謝再看民委員報告等一下書面報告"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（9時44分）謝謝主席，先請主計長還有財政部長。"],["主席：請主計長、財政部長兩位長官。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：主計長、部長，兩位好。我先請問主計長，主計長，因為財劃法的修法，所以行政院先前打算統刪今年地方的一般性補助款25%，卓院長在今年的5月23號還特別對外強調，中央政府不是魔術師，不會變魔術，也不會無中生有，因此地方政府可以先行用歲計賸餘舉債因應，明年再依照新版的財劃法去償還舉債。但是我們看一下螢幕上的這兩張表格，主計長，你看得出來這兩張表格有什麼蹊蹺，你看得出來嗎？或許你看不出來，我是照你寫的，其實這兩張表格的意思是代表政府從一開始就是用一個不實的話術在威脅各地方政府，明明你就無需另籌財源嘛，你看你這邊有寫無需另籌財源，就可以支付直轄縣市政府的一般性補助款這636億啊，但主計總處卻是配合行政院，一路在雙簧演出。主計長，身為國家最高的主計機關，卻配合行政院違法的去刪減各地方政府的一般性補助款，你認為這樣做對嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，這主要是因為當初要通案刪減949億嘛……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，通案刪減有刪一般性補助款嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：沒有，但是他要我們自行刪……"],["林委員思銘：這二千五百多億有被刪嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他說要我們自行刪減，但是我們通案的項目都已經刪減，有的刪減60%，也有80%以上的部分，所以沒有辦法再刪減。"],["林委員思銘：但是依照你現在追加進來的預算來看，你根本沒有另籌財源嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，我們當初不是說財源的問題，而是我們沒有刪減的空間……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你怎麼會去刪減一般性補助款呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是沒有刪減的空間，所以就是說……"],["林委員思銘：主計長，你這個邏輯不通啦！你這樣扭曲了財劃法修法的正當性，你應該把政府真實的財政狀況告訴大家，總預算明明增加這麼多，增加了一千多億將近2,000億，你還可以去情勒地方政府說要去刪減他們的一般性補助款，你記得嗎，那個時候不是有跟你們講趕快追加預算嘛，那時就說了你們可以用追加預算的方式，但是你情勒地方政府，告訴他們「我要刪地方的一般性補助款」，現在你又倒過頭來要用追加預算的方式，把我們統刪的預算給它增加回去……"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，按照道理，我們刪減636億的部分，刪完就是預計要辦理追加……"],["林委員思銘：所以我的意思是要告訴你啦，不要用這種方式好像要情勒我們，要把這636億給你通過啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是情勒啦，不是這樣子。"],["林委員思銘：我想當初就已經明確告訴你了嘛，你不要等到大罷免大失敗之後才做這個事情，原本你就應該做的一直拖到現在才做，當時就要跟大家講清楚說明白，你們會透過追加預算的方式來做嘛，而不是去扣除我們要給地方政府的一般性補助款嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：不是，因為我們已經沒有刪減的空間了。"],["林委員思銘：這樣做是違法，你知道嗎？你沒有依法行政，我告訴你啦。"],["陳主計長淑姿：當初是沒有刪減的空間，才會刪減一般性補助款。"],["林委員思銘：好了，夠了啦，已經跟你講很清楚了。","請財政部。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長，財政部在周一8月25號的時候發新聞稿提到新版財政收支劃分法因為分配的公式不合理，所以我們的統籌分配稅款可能無法全數分配，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，公式的爭議問題有三項，我們在法案通過時候的記者會已經提出說明，然後在覆議時也有提出……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：但是在三個問題裡面，兩個地方政府都已經有共識……"],["林委員思銘：都已經達成共識了？"],["莊部長翠雲：另外一個部分是因為法條是白紙黑字寫的，這個部分財政部沒有權責擴權去做不同的……"],["主席：好，謝謝，再去跟林委員報告，好不好？"],["林委員思銘：好，請以書面向我答復。"],["主席：提書面報告啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請李昆澤委員質詢。","很抱歉，各位委員請諒解，因為今天還要處理機密預算，因此也要進行機密部分的詢答，還要處理預算，所以真的很抱歉。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":290,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-3-20,15,35,19,22,23,36,26-1","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","郭國文","林思銘","李昆澤","李柏毅","黃國昌","柯志恩","萬美玲","鄭正鈐","洪孟楷","張智倫","賴惠員","鍾佳濱","吳沛憶","張啓楷","王育敏","張宏陸","劉書彬","王世堅","黃秀芳","林俊憲","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","鄭天財Sra 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