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912.174, \"text\": \"首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 883.484, \"end\": 883.624, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 883.624, \"end\": 884.164, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 884.164, \"end\": 884.284, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 884.284, \"end\": 885.385, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"懲\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 885.385, \"end\": 885.485, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 885.485, \"end\": 885.665, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 885.665, \"end\": 885.865, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 885.865, \"end\": 886.105, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 886.105, \"end\": 886.245, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 886.245, \"end\": 886.805, \"score\": 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那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 912.614, \"end\": 912.994, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 912.994, \"end\": 913.294, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 913.294, \"end\": 913.534, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 913.534, \"end\": 913.875, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"須\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 913.875, \"end\": 914.015, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 914.015, \"end\": 914.155, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"精\", \"start\": 914.155, \"end\": 914.875, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 914.875, \"end\": 915.475, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 915.475, \"end\": 915.595, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 915.595, \"end\": 915.715, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": 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0.776}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 918.817, \"end\": 919.057, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 919.057, \"end\": 919.237, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 919.237, \"end\": 919.437, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 919.437, \"end\": 919.697, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 919.697, \"end\": 920.178, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 920.178, \"end\": 920.758, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 920.758, \"end\": 920.918, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 920.918, \"end\": 921.058, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 921.058, \"end\": 921.238, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 921.238, \"end\": 921.758, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 921.758, \"end\": 922.238, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": 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929.322, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 929.322, \"end\": 929.482, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 929.482, \"end\": 930.002, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 930.002, \"end\": 930.122, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 930.122, \"end\": 930.322, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 930.322, \"end\": 930.502, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 930.502, \"end\": 930.642, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 930.642, \"end\": 930.842, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 930.842, \"end\": 931.123, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 931.123, \"end\": 931.203, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"剩\", \"start\": 931.203, \"end\": 931.283, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 931.283, \"end\": 931.443, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 931.443, \"end\": 931.643, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"百\", \"start\": 931.643, \"end\": 932.183, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 932.183, \"end\": 932.843, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 932.843, \"end\": 932.983, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 932.983, \"end\": 933.384, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 933.384, \"end\": 933.884, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 933.884, \"end\": 934.024, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 934.024, \"end\": 934.364, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 934.364, \"end\": 935.164, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 935.164, \"end\": 935.264, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 935.264, \"end\": 935.505, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 935.505, \"end\": 935.685, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 935.685, \"end\": 936.065, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 936.065, \"end\": 936.085, \"score\": 0.958}]}, {\"start\": 936.465, \"end\": 956.684, \"text\": \"那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 936.465, \"end\": 936.585, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 936.585, \"end\": 936.625, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 936.625, \"end\": 936.865, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 936.865, \"end\": 936.986, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 936.986, \"end\": 937.126, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 937.126, \"end\": 937.426, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 937.426, \"end\": 937.886, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 937.886, \"end\": 938.187, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 938.187, \"end\": 938.487, 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{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 941.81, \"end\": 942.01, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 942.01, \"end\": 942.671, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"垃\", \"start\": 942.671, \"end\": 942.851, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"圾\", \"start\": 942.851, \"end\": 942.971, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 942.971, \"end\": 943.251, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 943.251, \"end\": 943.532, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 943.532, \"end\": 943.652, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"屬\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 943.652, \"end\": 943.912, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 943.912, \"end\": 944.072, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 944.072, \"end\": 944.232, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 944.232, \"end\": 944.392, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 944.392, \"end\": 944.773, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"按\", \"start\": 944.773, \"end\": 944.893, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 944.893, \"end\": 945.093, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 945.093, \"end\": 946.014, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"則\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 946.014, \"end\": 946.114, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 946.114, \"end\": 946.214, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 946.214, \"end\": 946.474, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 946.474, \"end\": 946.635, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 946.635, \"end\": 946.755, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 946.755, \"end\": 946.955, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 946.955, \"end\": 947.095, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 947.095, \"end\": 947.335, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 947.335, \"end\": 947.455, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 947.455, \"end\": 947.616, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 947.616, \"end\": 947.876, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 947.876, \"end\": 948.136, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 948.136, \"end\": 948.516, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 948.516, \"end\": 948.656, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 948.656, \"end\": 948.757, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 948.757, \"end\": 948.937, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 948.937, \"end\": 949.137, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 949.137, \"end\": 949.417, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 949.417, \"end\": 949.517, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 949.517, \"end\": 949.677, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 949.677, \"end\": 949.778, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 949.778, \"end\": 949.998, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 949.998, \"end\": 950.498, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 950.498, \"end\": 950.618, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 950.618, \"end\": 950.738, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 950.738, \"end\": 951.079, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 951.079, \"end\": 951.239, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 951.239, \"end\": 951.399, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 951.399, \"end\": 951.579, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 951.579, \"end\": 951.799, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 951.799, \"end\": 952.34, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 952.34, \"end\": 952.48, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 952.48, \"end\": 952.68, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 952.68, \"end\": 953.221, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 953.221, \"end\": 953.581, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 953.581, \"end\": 953.761, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 953.761, \"end\": 953.982, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 953.982, \"end\": 954.142, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 954.142, \"end\": 954.462, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 954.462, \"end\": 954.622, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 954.622, \"end\": 954.842, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 954.842, \"end\": 955.042, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 955.042, \"end\": 955.343, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 955.343, \"end\": 955.503, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 955.503, \"end\": 955.623, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 955.623, \"end\": 956.144, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 956.144, \"end\": 956.344, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"幅\", \"start\": 956.344, \"end\": 956.464, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 956.464, \"end\": 956.564, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 956.564, \"end\": 956.664, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 956.664, \"end\": 956.684, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"刪\"}, {\"word\": \"減\"}]}, {\"start\": 957.955, \"end\": 975.89, \"text\": \"所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 957.955, \"end\": 958.075, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 958.075, \"end\": 958.956, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"信\", \"start\": 958.956, \"end\": 959.116, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 959.116, \"end\": 959.296, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"撤\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"源\", \"start\": 1018.623, \"end\": 1019.183, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1019.183, \"end\": 1019.283, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1019.283, \"end\": 1019.443, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1019.443, \"end\": 1019.623, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 1019.623, \"end\": 1019.804, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 1019.804, \"end\": 1020.044, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1020.044, \"end\": 1020.504, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1020.504, \"end\": 1020.644, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1020.644, \"end\": 1021.185, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1021.185, \"end\": 1022.246, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1022.246, 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{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1025.409, \"end\": 1025.509, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1025.509, \"end\": 1025.689, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1025.689, \"end\": 1025.849, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 1025.849, \"end\": 1026.53, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 1026.53, \"end\": 1026.69, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"央\", \"start\": 1026.69, \"end\": 1026.85, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1026.85, \"end\": 1027.03, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1027.03, \"end\": 1027.15, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"拿\", \"start\": 1027.15, \"end\": 1027.33, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 1027.33, \"end\": 1027.35, \"score\": 0.011}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}]}, {\"start\": 1029.633, \"end\": 1056.569, \"text\": \"那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1029.633, \"end\": 1029.813, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1029.813, \"end\": 1029.933, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 1029.933, \"end\": 1030.173, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1030.173, \"end\": 1031.154, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \".\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1031.154, \"end\": 1031.294, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 1031.294, \"end\": 1031.594, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 1031.594, \"end\": 1031.854, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1031.854, \"end\": 1032.034, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"困\", \"start\": 1032.034, \"end\": 1032.855, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": 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\"end\": 1053.647, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1053.647, \"end\": 1053.847, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1053.847, \"end\": 1054.027, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1054.027, \"end\": 1054.447, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 1054.447, \"end\": 1054.727, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 1054.727, \"end\": 1055.168, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1055.168, \"end\": 1055.728, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1055.728, \"end\": 1055.848, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"般\", \"start\": 1055.848, \"end\": 1056.008, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 1056.008, \"end\": 1056.348, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 1056.348, \"end\": 1056.549, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 1056.549, \"end\": 1056.569, \"score\": 0.552}]}, {\"start\": 1058.392, \"end\": 1085.644, \"text\": \"從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對 明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1058.392, \"end\": 1058.512, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 1058.512, \"end\": 1058.633, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1058.633, \"end\": 1058.873, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"砍\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 1058.873, \"end\": 1058.993, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"剩\", \"start\": 1058.993, \"end\": 1059.453, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1059.453, \"end\": 1060.333, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 1060.333, \"end\": 1060.513, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1060.513, \"end\": 1060.653, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1060.653, \"end\": 1060.873, \"score\": 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\"所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1086.064, \"end\": 1086.184, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1086.184, \"end\": 1086.404, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1086.404, \"end\": 1086.724, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 1086.724, \"end\": 1086.884, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1086.884, \"end\": 1086.984, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 1086.984, \"end\": 1087.184, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1087.184, \"end\": 1087.284, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 1087.284, \"end\": 1087.384, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"短\", \"start\": 1087.384, \"end\": 1088.065, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"7\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, 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{\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 1128.572, \"end\": 1155.111, \"text\": \"請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 1128.572, \"end\": 1128.813, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1128.813, \"end\": 1129.033, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1129.033, \"end\": 1129.273, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 1129.273, \"end\": 1130.254, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"壟\"}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1130.254, \"end\": 1131.074, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"惡\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1131.074, \"end\": 1131.174, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"污\", \"start\": 1131.174, \"end\": 1131.314, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"染\", \"start\": 1131.314, \"end\": 1131.855, \"score\": 0.914}, 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\"end\": 1200.673, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1200.673, \"end\": 1200.753, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1200.753, \"end\": 1200.853, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1200.853, \"end\": 1200.973, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"隆\", \"start\": 1200.973, \"end\": 1201.073, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1201.073, \"end\": 1201.093, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 1202.601, \"end\": 1226.929, \"text\": \"對 其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 1202.601, \"end\": 1203.121, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1203.121, \"end\": 1203.241, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1203.241, \"end\": 1203.621, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": 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1255.9, \"text\": \"基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 1228.03, \"end\": 1228.15, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 1228.15, \"end\": 1228.29, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1228.29, \"end\": 1228.67, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1228.67, \"end\": 1229.03, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 1229.03, \"end\": 1229.17, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 1229.17, \"end\": 1229.291, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1229.291, \"end\": 1229.411, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1229.411, \"end\": 1229.631, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 1229.631, \"end\": 1229.791, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"灰\", \"start\": 1229.791, \"end\": 1229.951, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1229.951, 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\"這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1256.803, \"end\": 1257.164, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1257.164, \"end\": 1257.304, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1257.304, \"end\": 1257.564, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1257.564, \"end\": 1257.704, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1257.704, \"end\": 1257.945, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 1257.945, \"end\": 1258.105, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 1258.105, \"end\": 1258.225, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 1258.225, \"end\": 1258.385, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 1258.385, \"end\": 1258.565, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1258.565, 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\"end\": 1274.061, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1274.061, \"end\": 1274.202, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1274.202, \"end\": 1274.362, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1274.362, \"end\": 1274.462, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1274.462, \"end\": 1274.742, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 1274.742, \"end\": 1275.022, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 1275.022, \"end\": 1275.183, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1275.183, \"end\": 1275.203, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 1276.361, \"end\": 1304.922, \"text\": \"有些縣市 委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1276.361, \"end\": 1276.541, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1276.541, \"end\": 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\"速\", \"start\": 1617.172, \"end\": 1617.352, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1617.352, \"end\": 1617.492, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1617.492, \"end\": 1617.592, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 1617.592, \"end\": 1618.193, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 1618.193, \"end\": 1618.473, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"期\", \"start\": 1618.473, \"end\": 1618.633, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 1618.633, \"end\": 1618.774, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 1618.774, \"end\": 1618.914, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 1618.914, \"end\": 1619.174, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1619.174, \"end\": 1619.815, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 1619.815, \"end\": 1620.295, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1620.295, \"end\": 1620.616, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1620.616, \"end\": 1620.956, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1620.956, \"end\": 1621.116, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1621.116, \"end\": 1621.276, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 1621.276, \"end\": 1621.456, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 1621.456, \"end\": 1621.617, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1621.617, \"end\": 1621.697, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 1621.697, \"end\": 1621.877, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1621.877, \"end\": 1621.897, \"score\": 0.038}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 1622.157, \"end\": 1637.928, \"text\": \"因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1622.157, \"end\": 1622.337, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1622.337, \"end\": 1622.497, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1622.497, \"end\": 1622.617, \"score\": 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\"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1636.327, \"end\": 1636.487, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1636.487, \"end\": 1636.727, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 1636.727, \"end\": 1637.047, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1637.047, \"end\": 1637.147, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1637.147, \"end\": 1637.588, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"車\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 1637.588, \"end\": 1637.708, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1637.708, \"end\": 1637.908, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1637.908, \"end\": 1637.928, \"score\": 0.52}]}, {\"start\": 1638.208, \"end\": 1666.493, \"text\": \"第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1638.208, \"end\": 1638.308, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"二\", 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{\"word\": \"沛\", \"start\": 1829.15, \"end\": 1829.25, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"祥\", \"start\": 1829.25, \"end\": 1829.41, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1829.41, \"end\": 1829.59, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"卓\", \"start\": 1829.59, \"end\": 1829.71, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 1829.71, \"end\": 1830.211, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 1830.211, \"end\": 1830.311, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1830.311, \"end\": 1830.371, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1830.371, \"end\": 1830.391, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,846 --> 00:00:16,149\n主席各位同仁午安有請卓院長跟法務部正部長麻煩再請卓院長法務部長備詢議員好院長\n\n2\n00:00:29,915 --> 00:00:50,471\n中華民國即將會面對所謂超高齡社會的嚴峻問題,因此本人必須嚴肅的指出,我們社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型,但是我們的民法繼承篇卻仍停留在數十年前大家庭思維導致法治跟民情嚴重脫節。\n\n3\n00:00:51,852 --> 00:01:18,180\n根據最新的統計全國涉及兩人以下包括單身或頂客族的家庭佔比將近五成在主要都會區甚至過半然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民在面臨生命中期規劃時卻因現行民法第1223條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留份規定陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境即使\n\n4\n00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:40,773\n繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足法律仍強制將這些手足享有應計三分之一的特留份這種制度的設計不僅不公更是對我們公民遺屬自由的踐踏\n\n5\n00:01:42,014 --> 00:02:05,452\n身為一個立法委員本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民所以請問院長行政院是否承認現行民法第1223條第4款以對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群構成不合理的財產權利侵害\n\n6\n00:02:06,773 --> 00:02:31,151\n民法當中對於法定的繼承權人除了印記份之外他有特留份的一個設計就希望說不要因為太多的好惡把一個人所有的權利給他抹殺掉了所以配偶跟子女之間對於他的印記份特留份都有相同的一個保障兄弟姊妹之間也有個特留份的保障這是現在民法的規定跟民法的設計那我這個設計來自多年了\n\n7\n00:02:33,573 --> 00:02:50,215\n那我也想請問行政院對於保障公民遺主自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員像是子女父母之後對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢\n\n8\n00:02:51,676 --> 00:03:05,901\n這當然是可以一個討論的方向但是我會更重視的是整個法律的橫平性它的穩定性如果這樣一改過之後會不會在繼承的訴訟上面會徒增很多無謂的紛爭就是等一下我們會提到那現在我請教部長\n\n9\n00:03:07,202 --> 00:03:21,915\n在中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據上面是否支持將兄弟姊妹在現今社會結構下視為法律上必須強制保障特留份的核心家庭成員\n\n10\n00:03:23,916 --> 00:03:47,787\n這個特留份是應積分的二分之一嘛這個法定是這樣那我想這個特留份當然有想說移組的一個剛才有說保證單身跟頂客移組自由那這個是可以討論的那我想說這個特留份的話當然是保證那個繼承人繼承權人的一個權利那是不是要保留我們認為這是可以討論的好\n\n11\n00:03:49,468 --> 00:04:05,204\n法務部在嚴尼因應少子化跟高齡化社會的相關配套政策時是否會積極主張行政院加速推動所謂繼承篇的修法以使法律規範批辟現代社會的結構者現實呢\n\n12\n00:04:07,072 --> 00:04:27,774\n我想這個繼承權的這部分應急分跟特留分我想要與時俱進但我想這個我們會考慮到現在這個時代的一個需求來考慮這個要不要再做一個檢討那我想一個法律的話有它的安定性那我想要不要改還要廣納各界的意見要做怎麼樣的一個調整\n\n13\n00:04:28,374 --> 00:04:54,637\n據我所了解目前修法的方向可能將研議將兄弟姊妹的特留份從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一但是我想請問院長這樣子微幅調降的比例方案是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求那如果我們採取這個折衷方案是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟造成更大的社會成本呢\n\n14\n00:04:55,465 --> 00:05:19,645\n這個是一體的兩面因為你保留了特留份之後被繼承人他主張怎麼樣他都必須在這法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利但如果這個拿掉會變成0跟100之間的選擇那這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假或者是必須舉證更多來證明這個不公平不公平的分配是\n\n15\n00:05:20,529 --> 00:05:49,656\n背棄了人的真正的意思這就是我們一剛開始在提現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話這特留份的意義他並沒有那麼嚴重我們不能預設一場兄弟姊妹少而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少而是他們覺得兄弟姊妹不想分的時候他們必須要分這特留份那不是一種不公平嗎跟委員報告公不公平我想這個大家是可以討論的還管他的意見\n\n16\n00:05:50,516 --> 00:06:16,838\n尤其是要給多少那個是屬於那個被繼承人的一個遺囑上的一個權如果說他的繼承是說他在生前就已經講好了但是後面我們的法律如果說沒有辦法去符合他們這些人的需求這些頂客族跟單身主權的需求如果用證語就沒有這個限制如果用生前的證語就沒有這個限制\n\n17\n00:06:17,638 --> 00:06:45,158\n所以說這就是我們等一下要講到的其實我認同所謂公民聯署上面的主張是直接刪除民法第1223條第4款那如果說行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留份為目標進行修法研議而不是說只是比例上面的微調呢這個我們必須要廣納各界的意見法律界的意見那很多民間的意見我們還要到法律界學術界的意見也是要看\n\n18\n00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:47,905\n怎麼樣讓這個法律它能夠執行起來\n\n19\n00:06:49,480 --> 00:07:16,601\n除了這個穩定性之外他能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利能夠互相尊重有沒有一個時效性因為我知道說這些修法其實都是曠日廢時的我們現在是第11屆立法委員我不希望到第13屆立法委員的時候我們還在討論說那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上的都是單身族或頂客族或者只有毛小孩這個是有可能發生的事情尤其在高齡化社會的時候我們必須與時俱進\n\n20\n00:07:17,802 --> 00:07:41,250\n老實講這句話時空背景不同對於這個修法其實是很有必要的這句話我們出去一年半之前常常聽到但是時空背景不同是這一次修法上面我們必須要重視的一點以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多現在的確這麼多了所以我會在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法治不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙而且老實說\n\n21\n00:07:42,771 --> 00:08:08,376\n我們法律的責任是因為替人民提供簡便公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志而不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託保險等專業的法律工具來規避法律規定如果這種事情發生了不但倒從我們社會資源浪費之外也凸顯了這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進本身法規是一種失能的\n\n22\n00:08:09,195 --> 00:08:24,870\n我再強調一次超高齡社會台灣很快就會進入而我們都在其中之一我在這邊懇請我們行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益以保障遺族自由為原則\n\n23\n00:08:25,510 --> 00:08:51,600\n以國際法制為借鏡我們來採取行動廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留份規定我覺得這方面來講我們來確保所有公民的財產自主權如果說家庭倫理沒有不好但是老實說與時俱進現在已經大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了如果說我們沒有辦法保證我們頂客族跟單身族他們的財產自主權我會覺得很可惜\n\n24\n00:08:53,523 --> 00:09:01,639\n剛剛院長有提到說要去廣納各界討論是否能夠行政院說至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢\n\n25\n00:09:03,415 --> 00:09:30,812\n如果我沒有記錯民法應該是民國18年源自於民國18年開始到現在當中並沒有大幅度的修改只有微微的一些部分的修改這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢那我們可以跟外界來做一些談討到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念的改變像變革來做修正這個因為知識體大牽動的蠻多的我跟委員承諾我們就是來\n\n26\n00:09:31,713 --> 00:09:45,164\n做這樣的徵詢做這樣的討論可以開始但時程我到底不敢說因為各方的意見一定會很多我會期待說至少我們這一屆開始有個起頭今天我在這個總諮詢的機會蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講說現在我們遇到超高齡社會而財產自主權尤其是遺族的自主權這件事情其實應該把它列上時程\n\n27\n00:09:55,313 --> 00:10:09,153\n像這樣的狀況其實已經在很多都會區已經正在發生當中那與其說一天到晚有像這方面的爭執倒不如說行政院我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善可以把它再進化這件事拿出來做出一個討論\n\n28\n00:10:10,219 --> 00:10:12,762\n這方面如果有任何資訊麻煩跟我們辦公室也讓我們辦公室知道進度好嗎\n\n29\n00:10:29,384 --> 00:10:34,267\n這部分我們在做我們要提書面給吳銓豪再來請的是環境部的彭部長歡迎環境部長備詢\n\n30\n00:10:52,269 --> 00:11:16,696\n院長部長本席是基隆市唯一的一區區域立委因此我要向院長部長提出最嚴肅的控訴基隆市天外天焚化爐的非灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案而是整個中央政府在環境政策財政夥伴關係跟市長監管上面一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機\n\n31\n00:11:18,516 --> 00:11:46,563\n新國隆市長為了讓佔用多年的土地能夠富裕成為還給市民的公園所以為了讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統的掩埋而升級到更環保能夠更資源化的水洗再利用技術他做出決策中意的充滿爭議的就合約然而我們的地方政府在第一線力求改變力求環保轉型在衝鋒陷陣的時候我們後面中央部會做了些什麼呢\n\n32\n00:11:48,257 --> 00:11:56,790\n撤銷了補助做事的壟斷懲罰了革新環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾的1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷\n\n33\n00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:23,451\n院長這不是中央請客地方買單嚴格講起來這應該叫中央許願地方活埋今年少了這1.8億的補助會讓基隆未來每年都必須為非灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛改善基隆的交通可以來投資孩子的教育可以照顧我們的長者\n\n34\n00:12:24,051 --> 00:12:43,747\n但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎被市場的壟斷機制給無情的吞噬所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面中央的三大不可迴避的責任第一個我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府\n\n35\n00:12:44,881 --> 00:13:06,302\n根據資料過去舊合約地方政府掩埋非灰處理費每公噸只需1400元但是地方政府力求革新終止就業後新的標案得價卻一路飆漲到每公噸25000元足足暴漲近18倍這筆費用讓每年基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元\n\n36\n00:13:07,990 --> 00:13:28,836\n金融市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛是因為我們有更長期的環保願景我們要推動最先進的水洗非灰再利用技術讓非灰無害化資源化而根據專業評估水洗技術落實之後每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低從3億降低到1億\n\n37\n00:13:30,370 --> 00:13:45,159\n然而就是在今年基隆最需要中央支援的時候支持的關鍵時刻我們收到一紙公文環境部的一紙公文明白告知原承諾補助經費總84%約1.8億元的灰飛水洗設施經費確定撤銷\n\n38\n00:13:53,001 --> 00:14:05,910\n那我在這邊就正式詢問我們卓院長跟彭部長當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄但是為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻釋回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢\n\n39\n00:14:13,134 --> 00:14:42,175\n院長如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革換來卻是中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長誰想改革誰有可能就會倒大霉行政院是否認同這種懲罰式的財政措施呢是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易掉票呢\n\n40\n00:14:43,484 --> 00:15:12,174\n首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分\n\n41\n00:15:12,614 --> 00:15:36,085\n那這個權限發分必須要很精準請部長能不能說明這個個案到底是什麼原因報告委員那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助\n\n42\n00:15:36,465 --> 00:15:56,684\n那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減\n\n43\n00:15:57,955 --> 00:16:15,890\n所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算\n\n44\n00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:38,765\n本身就有一定的一個程序它本身也並沒有正式的合可過所以我們明年的預算因為大幅度的給地方的補助款一般性補助款也明顯的一個減少所以基本上它的優勝順序相對的就沒有辦法再補助所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口將迫使基隆會長期被鎖定在每公噸25000元的天價處理費上面\n\n45\n00:16:41,047 --> 00:17:07,350\n那中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所畫出來的大大洞行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上面的財政夥伴關係上面承諾就是這樣委員您大概忽略了如果照新的財劃法明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的他不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來或是1.8億沒有中央的補助他就會有困難中央已經被拿掉4165億\n\n46\n00:17:09,633 --> 00:17:36,569\n那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款\n\n47\n00:17:38,392 --> 00:18:05,644\n從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平\n\n48\n00:18:06,064 --> 00:18:32,793\n所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情\n\n49\n00:18:33,453 --> 00:18:43,082\n不好意思我還其實質詢這個是三個地方只是基隆的財政而已還有再來是有關奇怪請問財政部長對不起請回座謝謝再來\n\n50\n00:18:48,572 --> 00:19:15,111\n請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增\n\n51\n00:19:16,712 --> 00:19:35,905\n18倍本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制而是很明顯的市場失靈所以也要請問院長行政院的公平交易委員會環境部對於這樣子明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當的聯合新聞專案調查\n\n52\n00:19:36,986 --> 00:20:01,093\n包委員其實第一個是要源頭減量啦那其實像彰化也遇到類似的問題他們努力的源頭減量垃圾就少了大概三成那當然後面的這個非灰就顯著的一個減少那他們另外開發了額外儲存非灰的一個地方他們自己就有辦法來做解決那我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話也應該也可以做得到所以都是我們基隆的問題\n\n53\n00:20:02,601 --> 00:20:26,929\n對其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡\n\n54\n00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:55,900\n基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案\n\n55\n00:20:56,803 --> 00:21:15,203\n這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎\n\n56\n00:21:16,361 --> 00:21:44,922\n有些縣市委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了\n\n57\n00:21:46,644 --> 00:22:13,620\n所以其實我這邊還是要重新再講一次其實這件事院長1.8億其實對於行政院對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢但是我這邊要請院長來去責成環境部恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗灰飛設施的1.8億承諾補助讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務噩夢順利完成得來不易的這個環保轉型\n\n58\n00:22:14,912 --> 00:22:38,613\n我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分否則財政收支方法4165億那每個縣市像委員這樣1.8億2億這叫驚吞蠶食啊又要驚吞又要蠶食中央受不了啊以後你看花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理你這個垃圾也要中央去處理但錢從中央一起搬走中央怎麼處理不能這樣驚吞蠶食\n\n59\n00:22:40,615 --> 00:23:05,814\n我們沒有提到花蓮我今天也不是在提花蓮我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話我們今天不用特地去提我告訴你別的縣市也有這樣的要求所以不能大的拿走了小的又要中央來補助院長如果今天您是在我這位子上你一定會很生氣我不會去通過這樣的裁劃法你不會很生氣因為你想幫地方做事但是不會通過這樣的裁劃法除非我不想執政\n\n60\n00:23:07,078 --> 00:23:27,446\n我還是再回到比較全國面的請彭部長針對水洗灰飛跟劇毒的二次風險的污染然後還是要香港法規要全國的法規要趕快訂出來而且難的話要請院長這邊建立所謂跨部會的聯防機制確保新的技術的推動不會犧牲環境的代價\n\n61\n00:23:28,942 --> 00:23:47,049\n包委員其實有些縣市他們處理就很好我也有機會的話委員我帶你到宜蘭看一看好幾個縣市他們處理這個垃圾問題是真的自給自製做得很不錯那我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務他們必須挑起來不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的\n\n62\n00:23:49,161 --> 00:24:11,460\n我會很期待說基本上來講如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市一個縣市處理垃圾不是應該一個縣市一個縣市事情處理垃圾國家也是有責任的這個我同意委員全國的垃圾處理的政策中央要有一套但除了執行有的地方來執行但政策我們會來研修院長我是說法規上面\n\n63\n00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:34,374\n法規上面如果你訂得不清楚那你只是一天到晚講選擇選擇選擇其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務如果沒有一個完整的法規沒有好好的配奧措施的話再好的事情再利益良善的政策都會出問題的法規當然要一致政策也要一致我們會從這裡來協助大家謝謝彭部長未來我還會請向你辦公室請你過來跟我們聊聊\n\n64\n00:24:41,161 --> 00:24:45,091\n再來我想請交通部部長麻煩請交通部長備選時間不多了\n\n65\n00:24:57,165 --> 00:25:25,246\nOK部長我在這個電動公車之前我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情還好沒有人目前我知道是無人傷亡不過忽然20台車20台小客車在通勤的時候他們的輪胎都在62號C上面全部被劃破那現在能不能跟我們講說現在目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼呢目前都已經修復完畢了今天早上發生之後很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢那有受到影響是25輛車\n\n66\n00:25:26,997 --> 00:25:54,690\n二十五輛車那未來他們的賠償是否這邊公路局是可以我請公路局他們來研議一下因為對於他們這二十五台車來講可能對我們現在是個小事情不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個噩夢同時之間我也要建起我們交通部針對這個所有這個橋樑的尖峰畢竟來講現在極端氣候忽冷忽熱的這個整個工程面來講會對於是很大的一個整個工程面跟工程的這個建築是一個很大的挑戰\n\n67\n00:25:55,370 --> 00:26:16,238\n再來我想跟部長跟院長再談一下有關大眾運輸尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車基本上來講我必須在這邊對於行政院交通部給予高度的肯定因為我們基隆市的電動公車我們基隆市的公車已經三四十年沒有換了甚至我們基隆市的公車已經是全國算有名之一\n\n68\n00:26:16,738 --> 00:26:44,019\n但是因為交通部過去這一年來我們不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取還是說我們交通部部長也很願意育成此案所以針對這個電動公車把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範公司這件事情來講我們相對有些比較長足的成長基本上來講本席在這邊代表我們基隆通行組跟我們部長跟我們院長說聲謝謝不過我在這邊也要提到就是說\n\n69\n00:26:45,239 --> 00:27:01,897\n其實我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎目前應該有五家目前我們知道他們因為如果有五家的話那他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣\n\n70\n00:27:02,157 --> 00:27:17,928\n因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有\n\n71\n00:27:18,208 --> 00:27:46,493\n第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面\n\n72\n00:27:47,173 --> 00:28:06,933\n有什麼想法既然現在我們有五家的公車所以讓大家來選擇那我希望業者能夠自己提升自己的品質效率跟服務這個部分請部長來做說我想因為行政院非常的支持所以對於這個公車的電動化跟無碳化的這個部分\n\n73\n00:28:07,253 --> 00:28:35,568\n我們持續在推進當中但2030年之前我們希望能夠完全落實完全的電動化基隆市政府其實當時在今年度也有申請了93輛車子目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛剩下的23輛其實我們會幫他保留著這個部分預算已經有匡列等他後續的年度如果他核定了這個部分我們還是會繼續來協助我們希望達到2030年完全的電動化\n\n74\n00:28:36,681 --> 00:28:59,530\n好那有另外一件事情有另外一個案子就是我剛剛講到車子之外你有馬沒有給馬吃的糧基本上馬也跑不壞也跑不痛那我記得沒有錯的話當初在屋的時候一個電動公車的充電樁好像是三千萬可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是八千萬\n\n75\n00:29:00,430 --> 00:29:29,464\n那中間這個我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁那這個案子現在來講的話能不能就是說這個案子我會覺得是說如果我們真的想要在本來計畫是2年到3年之內基隆全部的100多台的電動電動台的老舊公車下雨還會漏水老舊公車可以換成全新的電動公車那因為尤其在基隆會特別顯著因為基隆地方小那基隆的這個公車搭乘量是全台灣第二高那這一點話會讓人民很有感\n\n76\n00:29:29,944 --> 00:29:52,172\n這不只是說會是基隆市的政績也會是行政院的政績畢竟來講一個高低起伏很大的一個山區城市如果能夠成功的變成一個無碳運具的模範城市對於所有對於中華民國政府不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞那可是現在如果卡到說有馬沒有糧那不是很可惜嗎部長還有糧喔\n\n77\n00:29:55,145 --> 00:30:23,285\n這個補助的部分我們還是持續那當然物價一直在調漲我們在討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分去做討論但另外一個層面是我們讓這個電動裝使用的更有效率也就是說用AI的分析讓它一個電動裝可以充更多的車子這個部分我們也在努力研究當中不是說一台車就要配一個電動裝我們希望一個電動裝可以充的這個車子更多那我們需要設置的電動裝就可以更少這個部分我們也在研議當中\n\n78\n00:30:24,506 --> 00:30:30,391\n在研究當中我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公司的加碼謝謝謝謝林沛祥委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7846\t16149\t主席 各位同仁午安有請卓院長跟法務部正部長麻煩再請卓院長 法務部長備詢議員好院長\n29915\t50471\t中華民國即將會面對所謂超高齡社會的嚴峻問題,因此本人必須嚴肅的指出,我們社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型,但是我們的民法繼承篇卻仍停留在數十年前大家庭思維導致法治跟民情嚴重脫節。\n51852\t78180\t根據最新的統計全國涉及兩人以下包括單身或頂客族的家庭佔比將近五成在主要都會區甚至過半然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民在面臨生命中期規劃時卻因現行民法第1223條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留份規定陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境即使\n79100\t100773\t繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足法律仍強制將這些手足享有應計三分之一的特留份這種制度的設計不僅不公更是對我們公民遺屬自由的踐踏\n102014\t125452\t身為一個立法委員本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民所以請問院長行政院是否承認現行民法第1223條第4款以對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群構成不合理的財產權利侵害\n126773\t151151\t民法當中對於法定的繼承權人除了印記份之外他有特留份的一個設計就希望說不要因為太多的好惡把一個人所有的權利給他抹殺掉了所以配偶跟子女之間對於他的印記份特留份都有相同的一個保障兄弟姊妹之間也有個特留份的保障這是現在民法的規定跟民法的設計那我這個設計來自多年了\n153573\t170215\t那我也想請問行政院對於保障公民遺主自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員像是子女父母之後對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢\n171676\t185901\t這當然是可以一個討論的方向但是我會更重視的是整個法律的橫平性它的穩定性如果這樣一改過之後會不會在繼承的訴訟上面會徒增很多無謂的紛爭就是等一下我們會提到那現在我請教部長\n187202\t201915\t在中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據上面是否支持將兄弟姊妹在現今社會結構下視為法律上必須強制保障特留份的核心家庭成員\n203916\t227787\t這個特留份是應積分的二分之一嘛這個法定是這樣那我想這個特留份當然有想說移組的一個剛才有說保證單身跟頂客移組自由那這個是可以討論的那我想說這個特留份的話當然是保證那個繼承人 繼承權人的一個權利那是不是要保留我們認為這是可以討論的好\n229468\t245204\t法務部在嚴尼因應少子化跟高齡化社會的相關配套政策時是否會積極主張行政院加速推動所謂繼承篇的修法以使法律規範批辟現代社會的結構者現實呢\n247072\t267774\t我想這個繼承權的這部分應急分跟特留分我想要與時俱進但我想這個我們會考慮到現在這個時代的一個需求來考慮這個要不要再做一個檢討那我想一個法律的話有它的安定性那我想要不要改還要廣納各界的意見要做怎麼樣的一個調整\n268374\t294637\t據我所了解目前修法的方向可能將研議將兄弟姊妹的特留份從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一但是我想請問院長這樣子微幅調降的比例方案是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求那如果我們採取這個折衷方案是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟造成更大的社會成本呢\n295465\t319645\t這個是一體的兩面因為你保留了特留份之後被繼承人他主張怎麼樣他都必須在這法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利但如果這個拿掉會變成0跟100之間的選擇那這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假或者是必須舉證更多來證明這個不公平不公平的分配是\n320529\t349656\t背棄了人的真正的意思這就是我們一剛開始在提現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話這特留份的意義他並沒有那麼嚴重我們不能預設一場兄弟姊妹少而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少而是他們覺得兄弟姊妹不想分的時候他們必須要分這特留份那不是一種不公平嗎跟委員報告公不公平我想這個大家是可以討論的還管他的意見\n350516\t376838\t尤其是要給多少那個是屬於那個被繼承人的一個遺囑上的一個權如果說他的繼承是說他在生前就已經講好了但是後面我們的法律如果說沒有辦法去符合他們這些人的需求這些頂客族跟單身主權的需求如果用證語就沒有這個限制如果用生前的證語就沒有這個限制\n377638\t405158\t所以說這就是我們等一下要講到的其實我認同所謂公民聯署上面的主張是直接刪除民法第1223條第4款那如果說行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留份為目標進行修法研議而不是說只是比例上面的微調呢這個我們必須要廣納各界的意見法律界的意見那很多民間的意見我們還要到法律界學術界的意見也是要看\n406220\t407905\t怎麼樣讓這個法律它能夠執行起來\n409480\t436601\t除了這個穩定性之外他能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利能夠互相尊重有沒有一個時效性因為我知道說這些修法其實都是曠日廢時的我們現在是第11屆立法委員我不希望到第13屆立法委員的時候我們還在討論說那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上的都是單身族或頂客族或者只有毛小孩這個是有可能發生的事情尤其在高齡化社會的時候我們必須與時俱進\n437802\t461250\t老實講這句話時空背景不同對於這個修法其實是很有必要的這句話我們出去一年半之前常常聽到但是時空背景不同是這一次修法上面我們必須要重視的一點以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多現在的確這麼多了所以我會在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法治不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙而且老實說\n462771\t488376\t我們法律的責任是因為替人民提供簡便公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志而不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託保險等專業的法律工具來規避法律規定如果這種事情發生了不但倒從我們社會資源浪費之外也凸顯了這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進本身法規是一種失能的\n489195\t504870\t我再強調一次超高齡社會台灣很快就會進入而我們都在其中之一我在這邊懇請我們行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益以保障遺族自由為原則\n505510\t531600\t以國際法制為借鏡我們來採取行動廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留份規定我覺得這方面來講我們來確保所有公民的財產自主權如果說家庭倫理沒有不好但是老實說與時俱進現在已經大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了如果說我們沒有辦法保證我們頂客族跟單身族他們的財產自主權我會覺得很可惜\n533523\t541639\t剛剛院長有提到說要去廣納各界討論是否能夠行政院說至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢\n543415\t570812\t如果我沒有記錯民法應該是民國18年源自於民國18年開始到現在當中並沒有大幅度的修改只有微微的一些部分的修改這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢那我們可以跟外界來做一些談討到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念的改變像變革來做修正這個因為知識體大牽動的蠻多的我跟委員承諾我們就是來\n571713\t585164\t做這樣的徵詢 做這樣的討論可以開始但時程我到底不敢說因為各方的意見一定會很多我會期待說至少我們這一屆開始有個起頭今天我在這個總諮詢的機會蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講說現在我們遇到超高齡社會而財產自主權尤其是遺族的自主權這件事情其實應該把它列上時程\n595313\t609153\t像這樣的狀況其實已經在很多都會區已經正在發生當中那與其說一天到晚有像這方面的爭執倒不如說行政院我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善可以把它再進化這件事拿出來做出一個討論\n610219\t612762\t這方面如果有任何資訊麻煩跟我們辦公室也讓我們辦公室知道進度好嗎\n629384\t634267\t這部分我們在做 我們要提書面給吳銓豪再來請的是環境部的彭部長歡迎環境部長備詢\n652269\t676696\t院長 部長本席是基隆市唯一的一區區域立委因此我要向院長 部長提出最嚴肅的控訴基隆市天外天焚化爐的非灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案而是整個中央政府在環境政策財政夥伴關係跟市長監管上面一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機\n678516\t706563\t新國隆市長為了讓佔用多年的土地能夠富裕成為還給市民的公園所以為了讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統的掩埋而升級到更環保能夠更資源化的水洗再利用技術他做出決策中意的充滿爭議的就合約然而我們的地方政府在第一線力求改變力求環保轉型在衝鋒陷陣的時候我們後面中央部會做了些什麼呢\n708257\t716790\t撤銷了補助 做事的壟斷 懲罰了革新環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾的1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷\n720680\t743451\t院長這不是中央請客地方買單嚴格講起來這應該叫中央許願地方活埋今年少了這1.8億的補助會讓基隆未來每年都必須為非灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛改善基隆的交通可以來投資孩子的教育可以照顧我們的長者\n744051\t763747\t但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎被市場的壟斷機制給無情的吞噬所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面中央的三大不可迴避的責任第一個我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府\n764881\t786302\t根據資料過去舊合約地方政府掩埋非灰處理費每公噸只需1400元但是地方政府力求革新終止就業後新的標案得價卻一路飆漲到每公噸25000元足足暴漲近18倍這筆費用讓每年基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元\n787990\t808836\t金融市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛是因為我們有更長期的環保願景我們要推動最先進的水洗非灰再利用技術讓非灰無害化資源化而根據專業評估水洗技術落實之後每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低從3億降低到1億\n810370\t825159\t然而就是在今年 基隆最需要中央支援的時候 支持的關鍵時刻我們收到一紙公文 環境部的一紙公文明白告知原承諾補助經費總84%約1.8億元的灰飛水洗設施經費確定撤銷\n833001\t845910\t那我在這邊就正式詢問我們卓院長跟彭部長當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄但是為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻釋回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢\n853134\t882175\t院長 如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革換來卻是中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長誰想改革 誰有可能就會倒大霉行政院是否認同這種懲罰式的財政措施呢是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易掉票呢\n883484\t912174\t首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分\n912614\t936085\t那這個權限發分必須要很精準請部長能不能說明這個個案到底是什麼原因報告委員 那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助\n936465\t956684\t那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減\n957955\t975890\t所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算\n977070\t998765\t本身就有一定的一個程序它本身也並沒有正式的合可過所以我們明年的預算因為大幅度的給地方的補助款一般性補助款也明顯的一個減少所以基本上它的優勝順序相對的就沒有辦法再補助所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口將迫使基隆會長期被鎖定在每公噸25000元的天價處理費上面\n1001047\t1027350\t那中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所畫出來的大大洞行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上面的財政夥伴關係上面承諾就是這樣委員您大概忽略了如果照新的財劃法明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的他不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來或是1.8億沒有中央的補助他就會有困難中央已經被拿掉4165億\n1029633\t1056569\t那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款\n1058392\t1085644\t從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對 明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平\n1086064\t1112793\t所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情\n1113453\t1123082\t不好意思我還其實質詢這個是三個地方只是基隆的財政而已還有再來是有關奇怪請問財政部長對不起請回座 謝謝再來\n1128572\t1155111\t請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增\n1156712\t1175905\t18倍本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制而是很明顯的市場失靈所以也要請問院長行政院的公平交易委員會環境部對於這樣子明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當的聯合新聞專案調查\n1176986\t1201093\t包委員其實第一個是要源頭減量啦那其實像彰化也遇到類似的問題他們努力的源頭減量垃圾就少了大概三成那當然後面的這個非灰就顯著的一個減少那他們另外開發了額外儲存非灰的一個地方他們自己就有辦法來做解決那我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話也應該也可以做得到所以都是我們基隆的問題\n1202601\t1226929\t對 其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡\n1228030\t1255900\t基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案\n1256803\t1275203\t這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎\n1276361\t1304922\t有些縣市 委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了\n1306644\t1333620\t所以其實我這邊還是要重新再講一次其實這件事 院長1.8億其實對於行政院對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢但是我這邊要請院長來去責成環境部恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗灰飛設施的1.8億承諾補助讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務噩夢順利完成得來不易的這個環保轉型\n1334912\t1358613\t我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分否則財政收支方法4165億那每個縣市像委員這樣1.8億2億這叫驚吞蠶食啊又要驚吞又要蠶食中央受不了啊以後你看花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理你這個垃圾也要中央去處理但錢從中央一起搬走中央怎麼處理不能這樣驚吞蠶食\n1360615\t1385814\t我們沒有提到花蓮 我今天也不是在提花蓮我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話我們今天不用特地去提我告訴你 別的縣市也有這樣的要求所以不能大的拿走了 小的又要中央來補助院長 如果今天您是在我這位子上你一定會很生氣我不會去通過這樣的裁劃法你不會很生氣 因為你想幫地方做事但是不會通過這樣的裁劃法除非我不想執政\n1387078\t1407446\t我還是再回到比較全國面的請彭部長針對水洗灰飛跟劇毒的二次風險的污染然後還是要香港法規要全國的法規要趕快訂出來而且難的話要請院長這邊建立所謂跨部會的聯防機制確保新的技術的推動不會犧牲環境的代價\n1408942\t1427049\t包委員其實有些縣市他們處理就很好我也有機會的話委員我帶你到宜蘭看一看好幾個縣市他們處理這個垃圾問題是真的自給自製做得很不錯那我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務他們必須挑起來不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的\n1429161\t1451460\t我會很期待說基本上來講如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市一個縣市處理垃圾不是應該一個縣市一個縣市事情處理垃圾國家也是有責任的這個我同意委員全國的垃圾處理的政策中央要有一套但除了執行有的地方來執行但政策我們會來研修院長我是說法規上面\n1451880\t1474374\t法規上面如果你訂得不清楚那你只是一天到晚講選擇選擇選擇其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務如果沒有一個完整的法規沒有好好的配奧措施的話再好的事情再利益良善的政策都會出問題的法規當然要一致 政策也要一致我們會從這裡來協助大家謝謝彭部長 未來我還會請向你辦公室請你過來跟我們聊聊\n1481161\t1485091\t再來我想請交通部部長麻煩請交通部長備選時間不多了\n1497165\t1525246\tOK 部長我在這個電動公車之前我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情還好沒有人 目前我知道是無人傷亡不過忽然20台車20台小客車在通勤的時候他們的輪胎都在62號C上面全部被劃破那現在能不能跟我們講說現在目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼呢目前都已經修復完畢了今天早上發生之後很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢那有受到影響是25輛車\n1526997\t1554690\t二十五輛車那未來他們的賠償是否這邊公路局是可以我請公路局他們來研議一下因為對於他們這二十五台車來講可能對我們現在是個小事情不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個噩夢同時之間我也要建起我們交通部針對這個所有這個橋樑的尖峰畢竟來講現在極端氣候忽冷忽熱的這個整個工程面來講會對於是很大的一個整個工程面跟工程的這個建築是一個很大的挑戰\n1555370\t1576238\t再來我想跟部長跟院長再談一下有關大眾運輸尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車基本上來講我必須在這邊對於行政院交通部給予高度的肯定因為我們基隆市的電動公車我們基隆市的公車已經三四十年沒有換了甚至我們基隆市的公車已經是全國算有名之一\n1576738\t1604019\t但是因為交通部過去這一年來我們不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取還是說我們交通部部長也很願意育成此案所以針對這個電動公車把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範公司這件事情來講我們相對有些比較長足的成長基本上來講本席在這邊代表我們基隆通行組跟我們部長跟我們院長說聲謝謝不過我在這邊也要提到就是說\n1605239\t1621897\t其實我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎目前應該有五家目前我們知道他們因為如果有五家的話那他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣\n1622157\t1637928\t因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有\n1638208\t1666493\t第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面\n1667173\t1686933\t有什麼想法既然現在我們有五家的公車所以讓大家來選擇那我希望業者能夠自己提升自己的品質 效率跟服務這個部分請部長來做說我想 因為行政院非常的支持所以對於這個公車的電動化跟無碳化的這個部分\n1687253\t1715568\t我們持續在推進當中但2030年之前我們希望能夠完全落實完全的電動化基隆市政府其實當時在今年度也有申請了93輛車子目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛剩下的23輛其實我們會幫他保留著這個部分預算已經有匡列等他後續的年度如果他核定了這個部分我們還是會繼續來協助我們希望達到2030年完全的電動化\n1716681\t1739530\t好 那有另外一件事情有另外一個案子就是我剛剛講到車子之外你有馬 沒有給馬吃的糧基本上馬也跑不壞 也跑不痛那我記得沒有錯的話 當初在屋的時候一個電動公車的充電樁好像是三千萬可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是八千萬\n1740430\t1769464\t那中間這個我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁那這個案子現在來講的話能不能就是說這個案子我會覺得是說如果我們真的想要在本來計畫是2年到3年之內基隆全部的100多台的電動電動台的老舊公車下雨還會漏水老舊公車可以換成全新的電動公車那因為尤其在基隆會特別顯著因為基隆地方小那基隆的這個公車搭乘量是全台灣第二高那這一點話會讓人民很有感\n1769944\t1792172\t這不只是說會是基隆市的政績也會是行政院的政績畢竟來講一個高低起伏很大的一個山區城市如果能夠成功的變成一個無碳運具的模範城市對於所有對於中華民國政府不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞那可是現在如果卡到說有馬沒有糧那不是很可惜嗎部長還有糧喔\n1795145\t1823285\t這個補助的部分我們還是持續那當然物價一直在調漲我們在討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分去做討論但另外一個層面是我們讓這個電動裝使用的更有效率也就是說用AI的分析讓它一個電動裝可以充更多的車子這個部分我們也在努力研究當中不是說一台車就要配一個電動裝我們希望一個電動裝可以充的這個車子更多那我們需要設置的電動裝就可以更少這個部分我們也在研議當中\n1824506\t1830391\t在研究當中我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公司的加碼 謝謝謝謝林沛祥委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝\n","txt":"主席 各位同仁午安有請卓院長跟法務部正部長麻煩再請卓院長 法務部長備詢議員好院長\n中華民國即將會面對所謂超高齡社會的嚴峻問題,因此本人必須嚴肅的指出,我們社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型,但是我們的民法繼承篇卻仍停留在數十年前大家庭思維導致法治跟民情嚴重脫節。\n根據最新的統計全國涉及兩人以下包括單身或頂客族的家庭佔比將近五成在主要都會區甚至過半然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民在面臨生命中期規劃時卻因現行民法第1223條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留份規定陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境即使\n繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足法律仍強制將這些手足享有應計三分之一的特留份這種制度的設計不僅不公更是對我們公民遺屬自由的踐踏\n身為一個立法委員本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民所以請問院長行政院是否承認現行民法第1223條第4款以對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群構成不合理的財產權利侵害\n民法當中對於法定的繼承權人除了印記份之外他有特留份的一個設計就希望說不要因為太多的好惡把一個人所有的權利給他抹殺掉了所以配偶跟子女之間對於他的印記份特留份都有相同的一個保障兄弟姊妹之間也有個特留份的保障這是現在民法的規定跟民法的設計那我這個設計來自多年了\n那我也想請問行政院對於保障公民遺主自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員像是子女父母之後對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢\n這當然是可以一個討論的方向但是我會更重視的是整個法律的橫平性它的穩定性如果這樣一改過之後會不會在繼承的訴訟上面會徒增很多無謂的紛爭就是等一下我們會提到那現在我請教部長\n在中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據上面是否支持將兄弟姊妹在現今社會結構下視為法律上必須強制保障特留份的核心家庭成員\n這個特留份是應積分的二分之一嘛這個法定是這樣那我想這個特留份當然有想說移組的一個剛才有說保證單身跟頂客移組自由那這個是可以討論的那我想說這個特留份的話當然是保證那個繼承人 繼承權人的一個權利那是不是要保留我們認為這是可以討論的好\n法務部在嚴尼因應少子化跟高齡化社會的相關配套政策時是否會積極主張行政院加速推動所謂繼承篇的修法以使法律規範批辟現代社會的結構者現實呢\n我想這個繼承權的這部分應急分跟特留分我想要與時俱進但我想這個我們會考慮到現在這個時代的一個需求來考慮這個要不要再做一個檢討那我想一個法律的話有它的安定性那我想要不要改還要廣納各界的意見要做怎麼樣的一個調整\n據我所了解目前修法的方向可能將研議將兄弟姊妹的特留份從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一但是我想請問院長這樣子微幅調降的比例方案是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求那如果我們採取這個折衷方案是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟造成更大的社會成本呢\n這個是一體的兩面因為你保留了特留份之後被繼承人他主張怎麼樣他都必須在這法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利但如果這個拿掉會變成0跟100之間的選擇那這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假或者是必須舉證更多來證明這個不公平不公平的分配是\n背棄了人的真正的意思這就是我們一剛開始在提現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話這特留份的意義他並沒有那麼嚴重我們不能預設一場兄弟姊妹少而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少而是他們覺得兄弟姊妹不想分的時候他們必須要分這特留份那不是一種不公平嗎跟委員報告公不公平我想這個大家是可以討論的還管他的意見\n尤其是要給多少那個是屬於那個被繼承人的一個遺囑上的一個權如果說他的繼承是說他在生前就已經講好了但是後面我們的法律如果說沒有辦法去符合他們這些人的需求這些頂客族跟單身主權的需求如果用證語就沒有這個限制如果用生前的證語就沒有這個限制\n所以說這就是我們等一下要講到的其實我認同所謂公民聯署上面的主張是直接刪除民法第1223條第4款那如果說行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留份為目標進行修法研議而不是說只是比例上面的微調呢這個我們必須要廣納各界的意見法律界的意見那很多民間的意見我們還要到法律界學術界的意見也是要看\n怎麼樣讓這個法律它能夠執行起來\n除了這個穩定性之外他能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利能夠互相尊重有沒有一個時效性因為我知道說這些修法其實都是曠日廢時的我們現在是第11屆立法委員我不希望到第13屆立法委員的時候我們還在討論說那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上的都是單身族或頂客族或者只有毛小孩這個是有可能發生的事情尤其在高齡化社會的時候我們必須與時俱進\n老實講這句話時空背景不同對於這個修法其實是很有必要的這句話我們出去一年半之前常常聽到但是時空背景不同是這一次修法上面我們必須要重視的一點以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多現在的確這麼多了所以我會在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法治不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙而且老實說\n我們法律的責任是因為替人民提供簡便公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志而不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託保險等專業的法律工具來規避法律規定如果這種事情發生了不但倒從我們社會資源浪費之外也凸顯了這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進本身法規是一種失能的\n我再強調一次超高齡社會台灣很快就會進入而我們都在其中之一我在這邊懇請我們行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益以保障遺族自由為原則\n以國際法制為借鏡我們來採取行動廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留份規定我覺得這方面來講我們來確保所有公民的財產自主權如果說家庭倫理沒有不好但是老實說與時俱進現在已經大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了如果說我們沒有辦法保證我們頂客族跟單身族他們的財產自主權我會覺得很可惜\n剛剛院長有提到說要去廣納各界討論是否能夠行政院說至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢\n如果我沒有記錯民法應該是民國18年源自於民國18年開始到現在當中並沒有大幅度的修改只有微微的一些部分的修改這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢那我們可以跟外界來做一些談討到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念的改變像變革來做修正這個因為知識體大牽動的蠻多的我跟委員承諾我們就是來\n做這樣的徵詢 做這樣的討論可以開始但時程我到底不敢說因為各方的意見一定會很多我會期待說至少我們這一屆開始有個起頭今天我在這個總諮詢的機會蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講說現在我們遇到超高齡社會而財產自主權尤其是遺族的自主權這件事情其實應該把它列上時程\n像這樣的狀況其實已經在很多都會區已經正在發生當中那與其說一天到晚有像這方面的爭執倒不如說行政院我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善可以把它再進化這件事拿出來做出一個討論\n這方面如果有任何資訊麻煩跟我們辦公室也讓我們辦公室知道進度好嗎\n這部分我們在做 我們要提書面給吳銓豪再來請的是環境部的彭部長歡迎環境部長備詢\n院長 部長本席是基隆市唯一的一區區域立委因此我要向院長 部長提出最嚴肅的控訴基隆市天外天焚化爐的非灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案而是整個中央政府在環境政策財政夥伴關係跟市長監管上面一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機\n新國隆市長為了讓佔用多年的土地能夠富裕成為還給市民的公園所以為了讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統的掩埋而升級到更環保能夠更資源化的水洗再利用技術他做出決策中意的充滿爭議的就合約然而我們的地方政府在第一線力求改變力求環保轉型在衝鋒陷陣的時候我們後面中央部會做了些什麼呢\n撤銷了補助 做事的壟斷 懲罰了革新環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾的1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷\n院長這不是中央請客地方買單嚴格講起來這應該叫中央許願地方活埋今年少了這1.8億的補助會讓基隆未來每年都必須為非灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛改善基隆的交通可以來投資孩子的教育可以照顧我們的長者\n但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎被市場的壟斷機制給無情的吞噬所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面中央的三大不可迴避的責任第一個我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府\n根據資料過去舊合約地方政府掩埋非灰處理費每公噸只需1400元但是地方政府力求革新終止就業後新的標案得價卻一路飆漲到每公噸25000元足足暴漲近18倍這筆費用讓每年基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元\n金融市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛是因為我們有更長期的環保願景我們要推動最先進的水洗非灰再利用技術讓非灰無害化資源化而根據專業評估水洗技術落實之後每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低從3億降低到1億\n然而就是在今年 基隆最需要中央支援的時候 支持的關鍵時刻我們收到一紙公文 環境部的一紙公文明白告知原承諾補助經費總84%約1.8億元的灰飛水洗設施經費確定撤銷\n那我在這邊就正式詢問我們卓院長跟彭部長當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄但是為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻釋回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢\n院長 如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革換來卻是中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長誰想改革 誰有可能就會倒大霉行政院是否認同這種懲罰式的財政措施呢是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易掉票呢\n首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分\n那這個權限發分必須要很精準請部長能不能說明這個個案到底是什麼原因報告委員 那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助\n那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減\n所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算\n本身就有一定的一個程序它本身也並沒有正式的合可過所以我們明年的預算因為大幅度的給地方的補助款一般性補助款也明顯的一個減少所以基本上它的優勝順序相對的就沒有辦法再補助所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口將迫使基隆會長期被鎖定在每公噸25000元的天價處理費上面\n那中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所畫出來的大大洞行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上面的財政夥伴關係上面承諾就是這樣委員您大概忽略了如果照新的財劃法明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的他不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來或是1.8億沒有中央的補助他就會有困難中央已經被拿掉4165億\n那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款\n從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對 明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平\n所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情\n不好意思我還其實質詢這個是三個地方只是基隆的財政而已還有再來是有關奇怪請問財政部長對不起請回座 謝謝再來\n請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增\n18倍本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制而是很明顯的市場失靈所以也要請問院長行政院的公平交易委員會環境部對於這樣子明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當的聯合新聞專案調查\n包委員其實第一個是要源頭減量啦那其實像彰化也遇到類似的問題他們努力的源頭減量垃圾就少了大概三成那當然後面的這個非灰就顯著的一個減少那他們另外開發了額外儲存非灰的一個地方他們自己就有辦法來做解決那我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話也應該也可以做得到所以都是我們基隆的問題\n對 其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡\n基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案\n這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎\n有些縣市 委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了\n所以其實我這邊還是要重新再講一次其實這件事 院長1.8億其實對於行政院對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢但是我這邊要請院長來去責成環境部恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗灰飛設施的1.8億承諾補助讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務噩夢順利完成得來不易的這個環保轉型\n我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分否則財政收支方法4165億那每個縣市像委員這樣1.8億2億這叫驚吞蠶食啊又要驚吞又要蠶食中央受不了啊以後你看花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理你這個垃圾也要中央去處理但錢從中央一起搬走中央怎麼處理不能這樣驚吞蠶食\n我們沒有提到花蓮 我今天也不是在提花蓮我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話我們今天不用特地去提我告訴你 別的縣市也有這樣的要求所以不能大的拿走了 小的又要中央來補助院長 如果今天您是在我這位子上你一定會很生氣我不會去通過這樣的裁劃法你不會很生氣 因為你想幫地方做事但是不會通過這樣的裁劃法除非我不想執政\n我還是再回到比較全國面的請彭部長針對水洗灰飛跟劇毒的二次風險的污染然後還是要香港法規要全國的法規要趕快訂出來而且難的話要請院長這邊建立所謂跨部會的聯防機制確保新的技術的推動不會犧牲環境的代價\n包委員其實有些縣市他們處理就很好我也有機會的話委員我帶你到宜蘭看一看好幾個縣市他們處理這個垃圾問題是真的自給自製做得很不錯那我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務他們必須挑起來不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的\n我會很期待說基本上來講如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市一個縣市處理垃圾不是應該一個縣市一個縣市事情處理垃圾國家也是有責任的這個我同意委員全國的垃圾處理的政策中央要有一套但除了執行有的地方來執行但政策我們會來研修院長我是說法規上面\n法規上面如果你訂得不清楚那你只是一天到晚講選擇選擇選擇其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務如果沒有一個完整的法規沒有好好的配奧措施的話再好的事情再利益良善的政策都會出問題的法規當然要一致 政策也要一致我們會從這裡來協助大家謝謝彭部長 未來我還會請向你辦公室請你過來跟我們聊聊\n再來我想請交通部部長麻煩請交通部長備選時間不多了\nOK 部長我在這個電動公車之前我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情還好沒有人 目前我知道是無人傷亡不過忽然20台車20台小客車在通勤的時候他們的輪胎都在62號C上面全部被劃破那現在能不能跟我們講說現在目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼呢目前都已經修復完畢了今天早上發生之後很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢那有受到影響是25輛車\n二十五輛車那未來他們的賠償是否這邊公路局是可以我請公路局他們來研議一下因為對於他們這二十五台車來講可能對我們現在是個小事情不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個噩夢同時之間我也要建起我們交通部針對這個所有這個橋樑的尖峰畢竟來講現在極端氣候忽冷忽熱的這個整個工程面來講會對於是很大的一個整個工程面跟工程的這個建築是一個很大的挑戰\n再來我想跟部長跟院長再談一下有關大眾運輸尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車基本上來講我必須在這邊對於行政院交通部給予高度的肯定因為我們基隆市的電動公車我們基隆市的公車已經三四十年沒有換了甚至我們基隆市的公車已經是全國算有名之一\n但是因為交通部過去這一年來我們不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取還是說我們交通部部長也很願意育成此案所以針對這個電動公車把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範公司這件事情來講我們相對有些比較長足的成長基本上來講本席在這邊代表我們基隆通行組跟我們部長跟我們院長說聲謝謝不過我在這邊也要提到就是說\n其實我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎目前應該有五家目前我們知道他們因為如果有五家的話那他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣\n因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有\n第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面\n有什麼想法既然現在我們有五家的公車所以讓大家來選擇那我希望業者能夠自己提升自己的品質 效率跟服務這個部分請部長來做說我想 因為行政院非常的支持所以對於這個公車的電動化跟無碳化的這個部分\n我們持續在推進當中但2030年之前我們希望能夠完全落實完全的電動化基隆市政府其實當時在今年度也有申請了93輛車子目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛剩下的23輛其實我們會幫他保留著這個部分預算已經有匡列等他後續的年度如果他核定了這個部分我們還是會繼續來協助我們希望達到2030年完全的電動化\n好 那有另外一件事情有另外一個案子就是我剛剛講到車子之外你有馬 沒有給馬吃的糧基本上馬也跑不壞 也跑不痛那我記得沒有錯的話 當初在屋的時候一個電動公車的充電樁好像是三千萬可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是八千萬\n那中間這個我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁那這個案子現在來講的話能不能就是說這個案子我會覺得是說如果我們真的想要在本來計畫是2年到3年之內基隆全部的100多台的電動電動台的老舊公車下雨還會漏水老舊公車可以換成全新的電動公車那因為尤其在基隆會特別顯著因為基隆地方小那基隆的這個公車搭乘量是全台灣第二高那這一點話會讓人民很有感\n這不只是說會是基隆市的政績也會是行政院的政績畢竟來講一個高低起伏很大的一個山區城市如果能夠成功的變成一個無碳運具的模範城市對於所有對於中華民國政府不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞那可是現在如果卡到說有馬沒有糧那不是很可惜嗎部長還有糧喔\n這個補助的部分我們還是持續那當然物價一直在調漲我們在討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分去做討論但另外一個層面是我們讓這個電動裝使用的更有效率也就是說用AI的分析讓它一個電動裝可以充更多的車子這個部分我們也在努力研究當中不是說一台車就要配一個電動裝我們希望一個電動裝可以充的這個車子更多那我們需要設置的電動裝就可以更少這個部分我們也在研議當中\n在研究當中我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公司的加碼 謝謝謝謝林沛祥委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.846 --> 00:16.149\n主席各位同仁午安有請卓院長跟法務部正部長麻煩再請卓院長法務部長備詢議員好院長\n\n00:29.915 --> 00:50.471\n中華民國即將會面對所謂超高齡社會的嚴峻問題,因此本人必須嚴肅的指出,我們社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型,但是我們的民法繼承篇卻仍停留在數十年前大家庭思維導致法治跟民情嚴重脫節。\n\n00:51.852 --> 01:18.180\n根據最新的統計全國涉及兩人以下包括單身或頂客族的家庭佔比將近五成在主要都會區甚至過半然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民在面臨生命中期規劃時卻因現行民法第1223條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留份規定陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境即使\n\n01:19.100 --> 01:40.773\n繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足法律仍強制將這些手足享有應計三分之一的特留份這種制度的設計不僅不公更是對我們公民遺屬自由的踐踏\n\n01:42.014 --> 02:05.452\n身為一個立法委員本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民所以請問院長行政院是否承認現行民法第1223條第4款以對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群構成不合理的財產權利侵害\n\n02:06.773 --> 02:31.151\n民法當中對於法定的繼承權人除了印記份之外他有特留份的一個設計就希望說不要因為太多的好惡把一個人所有的權利給他抹殺掉了所以配偶跟子女之間對於他的印記份特留份都有相同的一個保障兄弟姊妹之間也有個特留份的保障這是現在民法的規定跟民法的設計那我這個設計來自多年了\n\n02:33.573 --> 02:50.215\n那我也想請問行政院對於保障公民遺主自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員像是子女父母之後對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢\n\n02:51.676 --> 03:05.901\n這當然是可以一個討論的方向但是我會更重視的是整個法律的橫平性它的穩定性如果這樣一改過之後會不會在繼承的訴訟上面會徒增很多無謂的紛爭就是等一下我們會提到那現在我請教部長\n\n03:07.202 --> 03:21.915\n在中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據上面是否支持將兄弟姊妹在現今社會結構下視為法律上必須強制保障特留份的核心家庭成員\n\n03:23.916 --> 03:47.787\n這個特留份是應積分的二分之一嘛這個法定是這樣那我想這個特留份當然有想說移組的一個剛才有說保證單身跟頂客移組自由那這個是可以討論的那我想說這個特留份的話當然是保證那個繼承人繼承權人的一個權利那是不是要保留我們認為這是可以討論的好\n\n03:49.468 --> 04:05.204\n法務部在嚴尼因應少子化跟高齡化社會的相關配套政策時是否會積極主張行政院加速推動所謂繼承篇的修法以使法律規範批辟現代社會的結構者現實呢\n\n04:07.072 --> 04:27.774\n我想這個繼承權的這部分應急分跟特留分我想要與時俱進但我想這個我們會考慮到現在這個時代的一個需求來考慮這個要不要再做一個檢討那我想一個法律的話有它的安定性那我想要不要改還要廣納各界的意見要做怎麼樣的一個調整\n\n04:28.374 --> 04:54.637\n據我所了解目前修法的方向可能將研議將兄弟姊妹的特留份從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一但是我想請問院長這樣子微幅調降的比例方案是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求那如果我們採取這個折衷方案是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟造成更大的社會成本呢\n\n04:55.465 --> 05:19.645\n這個是一體的兩面因為你保留了特留份之後被繼承人他主張怎麼樣他都必須在這法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利但如果這個拿掉會變成0跟100之間的選擇那這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假或者是必須舉證更多來證明這個不公平不公平的分配是\n\n05:20.529 --> 05:49.656\n背棄了人的真正的意思這就是我們一剛開始在提現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話這特留份的意義他並沒有那麼嚴重我們不能預設一場兄弟姊妹少而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少而是他們覺得兄弟姊妹不想分的時候他們必須要分這特留份那不是一種不公平嗎跟委員報告公不公平我想這個大家是可以討論的還管他的意見\n\n05:50.516 --> 06:16.838\n尤其是要給多少那個是屬於那個被繼承人的一個遺囑上的一個權如果說他的繼承是說他在生前就已經講好了但是後面我們的法律如果說沒有辦法去符合他們這些人的需求這些頂客族跟單身主權的需求如果用證語就沒有這個限制如果用生前的證語就沒有這個限制\n\n06:17.638 --> 06:45.158\n所以說這就是我們等一下要講到的其實我認同所謂公民聯署上面的主張是直接刪除民法第1223條第4款那如果說行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留份為目標進行修法研議而不是說只是比例上面的微調呢這個我們必須要廣納各界的意見法律界的意見那很多民間的意見我們還要到法律界學術界的意見也是要看\n\n06:46.220 --> 06:47.905\n怎麼樣讓這個法律它能夠執行起來\n\n06:49.480 --> 07:16.601\n除了這個穩定性之外他能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利能夠互相尊重有沒有一個時效性因為我知道說這些修法其實都是曠日廢時的我們現在是第11屆立法委員我不希望到第13屆立法委員的時候我們還在討論說那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上的都是單身族或頂客族或者只有毛小孩這個是有可能發生的事情尤其在高齡化社會的時候我們必須與時俱進\n\n07:17.802 --> 07:41.250\n老實講這句話時空背景不同對於這個修法其實是很有必要的這句話我們出去一年半之前常常聽到但是時空背景不同是這一次修法上面我們必須要重視的一點以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多現在的確這麼多了所以我會在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法治不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙而且老實說\n\n07:42.771 --> 08:08.376\n我們法律的責任是因為替人民提供簡便公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志而不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託保險等專業的法律工具來規避法律規定如果這種事情發生了不但倒從我們社會資源浪費之外也凸顯了這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進本身法規是一種失能的\n\n08:09.195 --> 08:24.870\n我再強調一次超高齡社會台灣很快就會進入而我們都在其中之一我在這邊懇請我們行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益以保障遺族自由為原則\n\n08:25.510 --> 08:51.600\n以國際法制為借鏡我們來採取行動廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留份規定我覺得這方面來講我們來確保所有公民的財產自主權如果說家庭倫理沒有不好但是老實說與時俱進現在已經大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了如果說我們沒有辦法保證我們頂客族跟單身族他們的財產自主權我會覺得很可惜\n\n08:53.523 --> 09:01.639\n剛剛院長有提到說要去廣納各界討論是否能夠行政院說至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢\n\n09:03.415 --> 09:30.812\n如果我沒有記錯民法應該是民國18年源自於民國18年開始到現在當中並沒有大幅度的修改只有微微的一些部分的修改這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢那我們可以跟外界來做一些談討到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念的改變像變革來做修正這個因為知識體大牽動的蠻多的我跟委員承諾我們就是來\n\n09:31.713 --> 09:45.164\n做這樣的徵詢做這樣的討論可以開始但時程我到底不敢說因為各方的意見一定會很多我會期待說至少我們這一屆開始有個起頭今天我在這個總諮詢的機會蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講說現在我們遇到超高齡社會而財產自主權尤其是遺族的自主權這件事情其實應該把它列上時程\n\n09:55.313 --> 10:09.153\n像這樣的狀況其實已經在很多都會區已經正在發生當中那與其說一天到晚有像這方面的爭執倒不如說行政院我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善可以把它再進化這件事拿出來做出一個討論\n\n10:10.219 --> 10:12.762\n這方面如果有任何資訊麻煩跟我們辦公室也讓我們辦公室知道進度好嗎\n\n10:29.384 --> 10:34.267\n這部分我們在做我們要提書面給吳銓豪再來請的是環境部的彭部長歡迎環境部長備詢\n\n10:52.269 --> 11:16.696\n院長部長本席是基隆市唯一的一區區域立委因此我要向院長部長提出最嚴肅的控訴基隆市天外天焚化爐的非灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案而是整個中央政府在環境政策財政夥伴關係跟市長監管上面一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機\n\n11:18.516 --> 11:46.563\n新國隆市長為了讓佔用多年的土地能夠富裕成為還給市民的公園所以為了讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統的掩埋而升級到更環保能夠更資源化的水洗再利用技術他做出決策中意的充滿爭議的就合約然而我們的地方政府在第一線力求改變力求環保轉型在衝鋒陷陣的時候我們後面中央部會做了些什麼呢\n\n11:48.257 --> 11:56.790\n撤銷了補助做事的壟斷懲罰了革新環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾的1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷\n\n12:00.680 --> 12:23.451\n院長這不是中央請客地方買單嚴格講起來這應該叫中央許願地方活埋今年少了這1.8億的補助會讓基隆未來每年都必須為非灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛改善基隆的交通可以來投資孩子的教育可以照顧我們的長者\n\n12:24.051 --> 12:43.747\n但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎被市場的壟斷機制給無情的吞噬所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面中央的三大不可迴避的責任第一個我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府\n\n12:44.881 --> 13:06.302\n根據資料過去舊合約地方政府掩埋非灰處理費每公噸只需1400元但是地方政府力求革新終止就業後新的標案得價卻一路飆漲到每公噸25000元足足暴漲近18倍這筆費用讓每年基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元\n\n13:07.990 --> 13:28.836\n金融市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛是因為我們有更長期的環保願景我們要推動最先進的水洗非灰再利用技術讓非灰無害化資源化而根據專業評估水洗技術落實之後每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低從3億降低到1億\n\n13:30.370 --> 13:45.159\n然而就是在今年基隆最需要中央支援的時候支持的關鍵時刻我們收到一紙公文環境部的一紙公文明白告知原承諾補助經費總84%約1.8億元的灰飛水洗設施經費確定撤銷\n\n13:53.001 --> 14:05.910\n那我在這邊就正式詢問我們卓院長跟彭部長當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄但是為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻釋回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢\n\n14:13.134 --> 14:42.175\n院長如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革換來卻是中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長誰想改革誰有可能就會倒大霉行政院是否認同這種懲罰式的財政措施呢是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易掉票呢\n\n14:43.484 --> 15:12.174\n首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分\n\n15:12.614 --> 15:36.085\n那這個權限發分必須要很精準請部長能不能說明這個個案到底是什麼原因報告委員那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助\n\n15:36.465 --> 15:56.684\n那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減\n\n15:57.955 --> 16:15.890\n所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算\n\n16:17.070 --> 16:38.765\n本身就有一定的一個程序它本身也並沒有正式的合可過所以我們明年的預算因為大幅度的給地方的補助款一般性補助款也明顯的一個減少所以基本上它的優勝順序相對的就沒有辦法再補助所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口將迫使基隆會長期被鎖定在每公噸25000元的天價處理費上面\n\n16:41.047 --> 17:07.350\n那中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所畫出來的大大洞行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上面的財政夥伴關係上面承諾就是這樣委員您大概忽略了如果照新的財劃法明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的他不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來或是1.8億沒有中央的補助他就會有困難中央已經被拿掉4165億\n\n17:09.633 --> 17:36.569\n那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款\n\n17:38.392 --> 18:05.644\n從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平\n\n18:06.064 --> 18:32.793\n所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情\n\n18:33.453 --> 18:43.082\n不好意思我還其實質詢這個是三個地方只是基隆的財政而已還有再來是有關奇怪請問財政部長對不起請回座謝謝再來\n\n18:48.572 --> 19:15.111\n請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增\n\n19:16.712 --> 19:35.905\n18倍本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制而是很明顯的市場失靈所以也要請問院長行政院的公平交易委員會環境部對於這樣子明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當的聯合新聞專案調查\n\n19:36.986 --> 20:01.093\n包委員其實第一個是要源頭減量啦那其實像彰化也遇到類似的問題他們努力的源頭減量垃圾就少了大概三成那當然後面的這個非灰就顯著的一個減少那他們另外開發了額外儲存非灰的一個地方他們自己就有辦法來做解決那我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話也應該也可以做得到所以都是我們基隆的問題\n\n20:02.601 --> 20:26.929\n對其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡\n\n20:28.030 --> 20:55.900\n基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案\n\n20:56.803 --> 21:15.203\n這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎\n\n21:16.361 --> 21:44.922\n有些縣市委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了\n\n21:46.644 --> 22:13.620\n所以其實我這邊還是要重新再講一次其實這件事院長1.8億其實對於行政院對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢但是我這邊要請院長來去責成環境部恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗灰飛設施的1.8億承諾補助讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務噩夢順利完成得來不易的這個環保轉型\n\n22:14.912 --> 22:38.613\n我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分否則財政收支方法4165億那每個縣市像委員這樣1.8億2億這叫驚吞蠶食啊又要驚吞又要蠶食中央受不了啊以後你看花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理你這個垃圾也要中央去處理但錢從中央一起搬走中央怎麼處理不能這樣驚吞蠶食\n\n22:40.615 --> 23:05.814\n我們沒有提到花蓮我今天也不是在提花蓮我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話我們今天不用特地去提我告訴你別的縣市也有這樣的要求所以不能大的拿走了小的又要中央來補助院長如果今天您是在我這位子上你一定會很生氣我不會去通過這樣的裁劃法你不會很生氣因為你想幫地方做事但是不會通過這樣的裁劃法除非我不想執政\n\n23:07.078 --> 23:27.446\n我還是再回到比較全國面的請彭部長針對水洗灰飛跟劇毒的二次風險的污染然後還是要香港法規要全國的法規要趕快訂出來而且難的話要請院長這邊建立所謂跨部會的聯防機制確保新的技術的推動不會犧牲環境的代價\n\n23:28.942 --> 23:47.049\n包委員其實有些縣市他們處理就很好我也有機會的話委員我帶你到宜蘭看一看好幾個縣市他們處理這個垃圾問題是真的自給自製做得很不錯那我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務他們必須挑起來不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的\n\n23:49.161 --> 24:11.460\n我會很期待說基本上來講如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市一個縣市處理垃圾不是應該一個縣市一個縣市事情處理垃圾國家也是有責任的這個我同意委員全國的垃圾處理的政策中央要有一套但除了執行有的地方來執行但政策我們會來研修院長我是說法規上面\n\n24:11.880 --> 24:34.374\n法規上面如果你訂得不清楚那你只是一天到晚講選擇選擇選擇其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務如果沒有一個完整的法規沒有好好的配奧措施的話再好的事情再利益良善的政策都會出問題的法規當然要一致政策也要一致我們會從這裡來協助大家謝謝彭部長未來我還會請向你辦公室請你過來跟我們聊聊\n\n24:41.161 --> 24:45.091\n再來我想請交通部部長麻煩請交通部長備選時間不多了\n\n24:57.165 --> 25:25.246\nOK部長我在這個電動公車之前我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情還好沒有人目前我知道是無人傷亡不過忽然20台車20台小客車在通勤的時候他們的輪胎都在62號C上面全部被劃破那現在能不能跟我們講說現在目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼呢目前都已經修復完畢了今天早上發生之後很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢那有受到影響是25輛車\n\n25:26.997 --> 25:54.690\n二十五輛車那未來他們的賠償是否這邊公路局是可以我請公路局他們來研議一下因為對於他們這二十五台車來講可能對我們現在是個小事情不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個噩夢同時之間我也要建起我們交通部針對這個所有這個橋樑的尖峰畢竟來講現在極端氣候忽冷忽熱的這個整個工程面來講會對於是很大的一個整個工程面跟工程的這個建築是一個很大的挑戰\n\n25:55.370 --> 26:16.238\n再來我想跟部長跟院長再談一下有關大眾運輸尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車基本上來講我必須在這邊對於行政院交通部給予高度的肯定因為我們基隆市的電動公車我們基隆市的公車已經三四十年沒有換了甚至我們基隆市的公車已經是全國算有名之一\n\n26:16.738 --> 26:44.019\n但是因為交通部過去這一年來我們不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取還是說我們交通部部長也很願意育成此案所以針對這個電動公車把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範公司這件事情來講我們相對有些比較長足的成長基本上來講本席在這邊代表我們基隆通行組跟我們部長跟我們院長說聲謝謝不過我在這邊也要提到就是說\n\n26:45.239 --> 27:01.897\n其實我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎目前應該有五家目前我們知道他們因為如果有五家的話那他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣\n\n27:02.157 --> 27:17.928\n因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有\n\n27:18.208 --> 27:46.493\n第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面\n\n27:47.173 --> 28:06.933\n有什麼想法既然現在我們有五家的公車所以讓大家來選擇那我希望業者能夠自己提升自己的品質效率跟服務這個部分請部長來做說我想因為行政院非常的支持所以對於這個公車的電動化跟無碳化的這個部分\n\n28:07.253 --> 28:35.568\n我們持續在推進當中但2030年之前我們希望能夠完全落實完全的電動化基隆市政府其實當時在今年度也有申請了93輛車子目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛剩下的23輛其實我們會幫他保留著這個部分預算已經有匡列等他後續的年度如果他核定了這個部分我們還是會繼續來協助我們希望達到2030年完全的電動化\n\n28:36.681 --> 28:59.530\n好那有另外一件事情有另外一個案子就是我剛剛講到車子之外你有馬沒有給馬吃的糧基本上馬也跑不壞也跑不痛那我記得沒有錯的話當初在屋的時候一個電動公車的充電樁好像是三千萬可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是八千萬\n\n29:00.430 --> 29:29.464\n那中間這個我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁那這個案子現在來講的話能不能就是說這個案子我會覺得是說如果我們真的想要在本來計畫是2年到3年之內基隆全部的100多台的電動電動台的老舊公車下雨還會漏水老舊公車可以換成全新的電動公車那因為尤其在基隆會特別顯著因為基隆地方小那基隆的這個公車搭乘量是全台灣第二高那這一點話會讓人民很有感\n\n29:29.944 --> 29:52.172\n這不只是說會是基隆市的政績也會是行政院的政績畢竟來講一個高低起伏很大的一個山區城市如果能夠成功的變成一個無碳運具的模範城市對於所有對於中華民國政府不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞那可是現在如果卡到說有馬沒有糧那不是很可惜嗎部長還有糧喔\n\n29:55.145 --> 30:23.285\n這個補助的部分我們還是持續那當然物價一直在調漲我們在討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分去做討論但另外一個層面是我們讓這個電動裝使用的更有效率也就是說用AI的分析讓它一個電動裝可以充更多的車子這個部分我們也在努力研究當中不是說一台車就要配一個電動裝我們希望一個電動裝可以充的這個車子更多那我們需要設置的電動裝就可以更少這個部分我們也在研議當中\n\n30:24.506 --> 30:30.391\n在研究當中我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公司的加碼謝謝謝謝林沛祥委員質詢謝謝卓院長相關部會所長備詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.846,"end":16.149,"text":"主席 各位同仁午安有請卓院長跟法務部正部長麻煩再請卓院長 法務部長備詢議員好院長"},{"start":29.915,"end":50.471,"text":"中華民國即將會面對所謂超高齡社會的嚴峻問題,因此本人必須嚴肅的指出,我們社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型,但是我們的民法繼承篇卻仍停留在數十年前大家庭思維導致法治跟民情嚴重脫節。"},{"start":51.852,"end":78.18,"text":"根據最新的統計全國涉及兩人以下包括單身或頂客族的家庭佔比將近五成在主要都會區甚至過半然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民在面臨生命中期規劃時卻因現行民法第1223條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留份規定陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境即使"},{"start":79.1,"end":100.773,"text":"繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足法律仍強制將這些手足享有應計三分之一的特留份這種制度的設計不僅不公更是對我們公民遺屬自由的踐踏"},{"start":102.014,"end":125.452,"text":"身為一個立法委員本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民所以請問院長行政院是否承認現行民法第1223條第4款以對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群構成不合理的財產權利侵害"},{"start":126.773,"end":151.151,"text":"民法當中對於法定的繼承權人除了印記份之外他有特留份的一個設計就希望說不要因為太多的好惡把一個人所有的權利給他抹殺掉了所以配偶跟子女之間對於他的印記份特留份都有相同的一個保障兄弟姊妹之間也有個特留份的保障這是現在民法的規定跟民法的設計那我這個設計來自多年了"},{"start":153.573,"end":170.215,"text":"那我也想請問行政院對於保障公民遺主自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員像是子女父母之後對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢"},{"start":171.676,"end":185.901,"text":"這當然是可以一個討論的方向但是我會更重視的是整個法律的橫平性它的穩定性如果這樣一改過之後會不會在繼承的訴訟上面會徒增很多無謂的紛爭就是等一下我們會提到那現在我請教部長"},{"start":187.202,"end":201.915,"text":"在中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據上面是否支持將兄弟姊妹在現今社會結構下視為法律上必須強制保障特留份的核心家庭成員"},{"start":203.916,"end":227.787,"text":"這個特留份是應積分的二分之一嘛這個法定是這樣那我想這個特留份當然有想說移組的一個剛才有說保證單身跟頂客移組自由那這個是可以討論的那我想說這個特留份的話當然是保證那個繼承人 繼承權人的一個權利那是不是要保留我們認為這是可以討論的好"},{"start":229.468,"end":245.204,"text":"法務部在嚴尼因應少子化跟高齡化社會的相關配套政策時是否會積極主張行政院加速推動所謂繼承篇的修法以使法律規範批辟現代社會的結構者現實呢"},{"start":247.072,"end":267.774,"text":"我想這個繼承權的這部分應急分跟特留分我想要與時俱進但我想這個我們會考慮到現在這個時代的一個需求來考慮這個要不要再做一個檢討那我想一個法律的話有它的安定性那我想要不要改還要廣納各界的意見要做怎麼樣的一個調整"},{"start":268.374,"end":294.637,"text":"據我所了解目前修法的方向可能將研議將兄弟姊妹的特留份從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一但是我想請問院長這樣子微幅調降的比例方案是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求那如果我們採取這個折衷方案是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟造成更大的社會成本呢"},{"start":295.465,"end":319.645,"text":"這個是一體的兩面因為你保留了特留份之後被繼承人他主張怎麼樣他都必須在這法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利但如果這個拿掉會變成0跟100之間的選擇那這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假或者是必須舉證更多來證明這個不公平不公平的分配是"},{"start":320.529,"end":349.656,"text":"背棄了人的真正的意思這就是我們一剛開始在提現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話這特留份的意義他並沒有那麼嚴重我們不能預設一場兄弟姊妹少而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少而是他們覺得兄弟姊妹不想分的時候他們必須要分這特留份那不是一種不公平嗎跟委員報告公不公平我想這個大家是可以討論的還管他的意見"},{"start":350.516,"end":376.838,"text":"尤其是要給多少那個是屬於那個被繼承人的一個遺囑上的一個權如果說他的繼承是說他在生前就已經講好了但是後面我們的法律如果說沒有辦法去符合他們這些人的需求這些頂客族跟單身主權的需求如果用證語就沒有這個限制如果用生前的證語就沒有這個限制"},{"start":377.638,"end":405.158,"text":"所以說這就是我們等一下要講到的其實我認同所謂公民聯署上面的主張是直接刪除民法第1223條第4款那如果說行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留份為目標進行修法研議而不是說只是比例上面的微調呢這個我們必須要廣納各界的意見法律界的意見那很多民間的意見我們還要到法律界學術界的意見也是要看"},{"start":406.22,"end":407.905,"text":"怎麼樣讓這個法律它能夠執行起來"},{"start":409.48,"end":436.601,"text":"除了這個穩定性之外他能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利能夠互相尊重有沒有一個時效性因為我知道說這些修法其實都是曠日廢時的我們現在是第11屆立法委員我不希望到第13屆立法委員的時候我們還在討論說那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上的都是單身族或頂客族或者只有毛小孩這個是有可能發生的事情尤其在高齡化社會的時候我們必須與時俱進"},{"start":437.802,"end":461.25,"text":"老實講這句話時空背景不同對於這個修法其實是很有必要的這句話我們出去一年半之前常常聽到但是時空背景不同是這一次修法上面我們必須要重視的一點以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多現在的確這麼多了所以我會在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法治不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙而且老實說"},{"start":462.771,"end":488.376,"text":"我們法律的責任是因為替人民提供簡便公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志而不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託保險等專業的法律工具來規避法律規定如果這種事情發生了不但倒從我們社會資源浪費之外也凸顯了這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進本身法規是一種失能的"},{"start":489.195,"end":504.87,"text":"我再強調一次超高齡社會台灣很快就會進入而我們都在其中之一我在這邊懇請我們行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益以保障遺族自由為原則"},{"start":505.51,"end":531.6,"text":"以國際法制為借鏡我們來採取行動廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留份規定我覺得這方面來講我們來確保所有公民的財產自主權如果說家庭倫理沒有不好但是老實說與時俱進現在已經大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了如果說我們沒有辦法保證我們頂客族跟單身族他們的財產自主權我會覺得很可惜"},{"start":533.523,"end":541.639,"text":"剛剛院長有提到說要去廣納各界討論是否能夠行政院說至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢"},{"start":543.415,"end":570.812,"text":"如果我沒有記錯民法應該是民國18年源自於民國18年開始到現在當中並沒有大幅度的修改只有微微的一些部分的修改這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢那我們可以跟外界來做一些談討到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念的改變像變革來做修正這個因為知識體大牽動的蠻多的我跟委員承諾我們就是來"},{"start":571.713,"end":585.164,"text":"做這樣的徵詢 做這樣的討論可以開始但時程我到底不敢說因為各方的意見一定會很多我會期待說至少我們這一屆開始有個起頭今天我在這個總諮詢的機會蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講說現在我們遇到超高齡社會而財產自主權尤其是遺族的自主權這件事情其實應該把它列上時程"},{"start":595.313,"end":609.153,"text":"像這樣的狀況其實已經在很多都會區已經正在發生當中那與其說一天到晚有像這方面的爭執倒不如說行政院我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善可以把它再進化這件事拿出來做出一個討論"},{"start":610.219,"end":612.762,"text":"這方面如果有任何資訊麻煩跟我們辦公室也讓我們辦公室知道進度好嗎"},{"start":629.384,"end":634.267,"text":"這部分我們在做 我們要提書面給吳銓豪再來請的是環境部的彭部長歡迎環境部長備詢"},{"start":652.269,"end":676.696,"text":"院長 部長本席是基隆市唯一的一區區域立委因此我要向院長 部長提出最嚴肅的控訴基隆市天外天焚化爐的非灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案而是整個中央政府在環境政策財政夥伴關係跟市長監管上面一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機"},{"start":678.516,"end":706.563,"text":"新國隆市長為了讓佔用多年的土地能夠富裕成為還給市民的公園所以為了讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統的掩埋而升級到更環保能夠更資源化的水洗再利用技術他做出決策中意的充滿爭議的就合約然而我們的地方政府在第一線力求改變力求環保轉型在衝鋒陷陣的時候我們後面中央部會做了些什麼呢"},{"start":708.257,"end":716.79,"text":"撤銷了補助 做事的壟斷 懲罰了革新環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾的1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷"},{"start":720.68,"end":743.451,"text":"院長這不是中央請客地方買單嚴格講起來這應該叫中央許願地方活埋今年少了這1.8億的補助會讓基隆未來每年都必須為非灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛改善基隆的交通可以來投資孩子的教育可以照顧我們的長者"},{"start":744.051,"end":763.747,"text":"但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎被市場的壟斷機制給無情的吞噬所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面中央的三大不可迴避的責任第一個我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府"},{"start":764.881,"end":786.302,"text":"根據資料過去舊合約地方政府掩埋非灰處理費每公噸只需1400元但是地方政府力求革新終止就業後新的標案得價卻一路飆漲到每公噸25000元足足暴漲近18倍這筆費用讓每年基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元"},{"start":787.99,"end":808.836,"text":"金融市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛是因為我們有更長期的環保願景我們要推動最先進的水洗非灰再利用技術讓非灰無害化資源化而根據專業評估水洗技術落實之後每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低從3億降低到1億"},{"start":810.37,"end":825.159,"text":"然而就是在今年 基隆最需要中央支援的時候 支持的關鍵時刻我們收到一紙公文 環境部的一紙公文明白告知原承諾補助經費總84%約1.8億元的灰飛水洗設施經費確定撤銷"},{"start":833.001,"end":845.91,"text":"那我在這邊就正式詢問我們卓院長跟彭部長當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄但是為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻釋回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢"},{"start":853.134,"end":882.175,"text":"院長 如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革換來卻是中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長誰想改革 誰有可能就會倒大霉行政院是否認同這種懲罰式的財政措施呢是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易掉票呢"},{"start":883.484,"end":912.174,"text":"首先這並非一個懲罰我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分是地方自治精神所應該落實的那過去中央做了很多著於補助那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下那未來中央地方如果財政像現在所行的這個財政收支劃分法中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分"},{"start":912.614,"end":936.085,"text":"那這個權限發分必須要很精準請部長能不能說明這個個案到底是什麼原因報告委員 那個是明年的預計的計畫那今年其實送進來我們也並沒有說審核通過那因為我們今年財化法過後我們明年的補助給地方的預算基本上大概全部加起來只剩下六百萬能夠還額外再補助所以這個就沒有辦法再補助"},{"start":936.465,"end":956.684,"text":"那我們也希望未來呢因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著的提升那事實上垃圾的處理還是屬於地方的事務按照原來規則但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算當然我們很了解基隆的用心但是因為真的明年的這個財化法過後我們環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的一個刪減"},{"start":957.955,"end":975.89,"text":"所以說傳信部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據就是因為財化法然後對於哪一條行政命令哪一條法律或是哪一次專家會議都沒有就是因為財化法報告委員其實因為我們每年就是因為財化法現在審的是現在你們送進來我們要審核的是明年的預算"},{"start":977.07,"end":998.765,"text":"本身就有一定的一個程序它本身也並沒有正式的合可過所以我們明年的預算因為大幅度的給地方的補助款一般性補助款也明顯的一個減少所以基本上它的優勝順序相對的就沒有辦法再補助所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口將迫使基隆會長期被鎖定在每公噸25000元的天價處理費上面"},{"start":1001.047,"end":1027.35,"text":"那中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所畫出來的大大洞行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上面的財政夥伴關係上面承諾就是這樣委員您大概忽略了如果照新的財劃法明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的他不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來或是1.8億沒有中央的補助他就會有困難中央已經被拿掉4165億"},{"start":1029.633,"end":1056.569,"text":"那基隆會因為1.8億就出發生財政困難嗎不會所以可以查一下明年基隆是明年度比114年增加73億原本114年是5.8億但是115年是到130億增加了73億財政部莊部長不好意思我還沒有請財政部上來那我只是說如果真的要扯的話那您知道說今年的一般性補助款"},{"start":1058.392,"end":1085.644,"text":"從89億基隆被砍到剩下9億嗎您知道今年的計劃型補助款基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎今年沒有啊計劃型補助款稅務上面我是在事務會議的時候看到的所以變成是說沒錯基隆多加73億你說的應該是明年對 明年我們基隆多加73億的統售分配款但是實質上我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近80億這個就是水平分配不公平"},{"start":1086.064,"end":1112.793,"text":"所以說那變成說基隆還是短短37億啊那我們今天講這1.8億是最重要是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一因為今年花這1.8億之後未來每年基隆就可以少花3億這是為什麼今天在這個地方這麼重要全國的議題上面我特地把這1.8億拿出來講1.8億在全國的這個預算裡面是個鳳毛麟角但是為什麼特地拿出來講因為這是有關後代的事情"},{"start":1113.453,"end":1123.082,"text":"不好意思我還其實質詢這個是三個地方只是基隆的財政而已還有再來是有關奇怪請問財政部長對不起請回座 謝謝再來"},{"start":1128.572,"end":1155.111,"text":"請問為何做事市場壟斷跟惡勢的污染風險呢院長這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口第一個是市場壟斷第二個是監管失靈如果在基隆的舊有的在地廠商退場之後全國的非灰處理市場高度集中單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約當一個攸關民生的官信事業其實處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增"},{"start":1156.712,"end":1175.905,"text":"18倍本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制而是很明顯的市場失靈所以也要請問院長行政院的公平交易委員會環境部對於這樣子明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當的聯合新聞專案調查"},{"start":1176.986,"end":1201.093,"text":"包委員其實第一個是要源頭減量啦那其實像彰化也遇到類似的問題他們努力的源頭減量垃圾就少了大概三成那當然後面的這個非灰就顯著的一個減少那他們另外開發了額外儲存非灰的一個地方他們自己就有辦法來做解決那我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話也應該也可以做得到所以都是我們基隆的問題"},{"start":1202.601,"end":1226.929,"text":"對 其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決因為大家後端的處理是很貴的源頭減量這是最重要的那另外一個是最後的如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量還是有點非灰的話原有的等於是掩埋場或許可以把它活化來處理那順便就請問一下彭部長您大力推動所謂資源化那想請問有關非灰水洗這類高風險技術中央的風險控管在哪裡"},{"start":1228.03,"end":1255.9,"text":"基本上現在如果有些非灰他可以最後的再利用再處理其實有些縣市他們很努力能夠來做顯著的去化例如說像宜蘭宜蘭他把整個焚化爐他附近的場域做完整的全循環的處理我想請問一下環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案排放標準針對水洗灰飛的劇毒廢水環境部預計什麼時候可以提出提出比較具體的排放標準草案"},{"start":1256.803,"end":1275.203,"text":"這個我們現在已經有了環管署它已經有相關性的標準草案出來了但是這個其實是一個新的技術但是我們期待因為非灰水洗它還是把它變成稀釋掉那到這個地下水道的處理而已但是最重要的是說源頭的減量能夠讓這個非灰減少這是最主要的一個開始執行了嗎"},{"start":1276.361,"end":1304.922,"text":"有些縣市 委員你可以到宜蘭去看看有些縣市遇到這個問題他把它做成全循環我還沒有完全執行之前在現在或即將運轉的相關設施中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求如果沒有的話一旦發生污染請問責任是在中央還是在地方基本上現在那個有一定的標準而且他這個最後處理是在你們的這個污水處理的管線的末端那個就會做處理了"},{"start":1306.644,"end":1333.62,"text":"所以其實我這邊還是要重新再講一次其實這件事 院長1.8億其實對於行政院對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢但是我這邊要請院長來去責成環境部恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗灰飛設施的1.8億承諾補助讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務噩夢順利完成得來不易的這個環保轉型"},{"start":1334.912,"end":1358.613,"text":"我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分否則財政收支方法4165億那每個縣市像委員這樣1.8億2億這叫驚吞蠶食啊又要驚吞又要蠶食中央受不了啊以後你看花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理你這個垃圾也要中央去處理但錢從中央一起搬走中央怎麼處理不能這樣驚吞蠶食"},{"start":1360.615,"end":1385.814,"text":"我們沒有提到花蓮 我今天也不是在提花蓮我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話我們今天不用特地去提我告訴你 別的縣市也有這樣的要求所以不能大的拿走了 小的又要中央來補助院長 如果今天您是在我這位子上你一定會很生氣我不會去通過這樣的裁劃法你不會很生氣 因為你想幫地方做事但是不會通過這樣的裁劃法除非我不想執政"},{"start":1387.078,"end":1407.446,"text":"我還是再回到比較全國面的請彭部長針對水洗灰飛跟劇毒的二次風險的污染然後還是要香港法規要全國的法規要趕快訂出來而且難的話要請院長這邊建立所謂跨部會的聯防機制確保新的技術的推動不會犧牲環境的代價"},{"start":1408.942,"end":1427.049,"text":"包委員其實有些縣市他們處理就很好我也有機會的話委員我帶你到宜蘭看一看好幾個縣市他們處理這個垃圾問題是真的自給自製做得很不錯那我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務他們必須挑起來不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的"},{"start":1429.161,"end":1451.46,"text":"我會很期待說基本上來講如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市一個縣市處理垃圾不是應該一個縣市一個縣市事情處理垃圾國家也是有責任的這個我同意委員全國的垃圾處理的政策中央要有一套但除了執行有的地方來執行但政策我們會來研修院長我是說法規上面"},{"start":1451.88,"end":1474.374,"text":"法規上面如果你訂得不清楚那你只是一天到晚講選擇選擇選擇其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務如果沒有一個完整的法規沒有好好的配奧措施的話再好的事情再利益良善的政策都會出問題的法規當然要一致 政策也要一致我們會從這裡來協助大家謝謝彭部長 未來我還會請向你辦公室請你過來跟我們聊聊"},{"start":1481.161,"end":1485.091,"text":"再來我想請交通部部長麻煩請交通部長備選時間不多了"},{"start":1497.165,"end":1525.246,"text":"OK 部長我在這個電動公車之前我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情還好沒有人 目前我知道是無人傷亡不過忽然20台車20台小客車在通勤的時候他們的輪胎都在62號C上面全部被劃破那現在能不能跟我們講說現在目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼呢目前都已經修復完畢了今天早上發生之後很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢那有受到影響是25輛車"},{"start":1526.997,"end":1554.69,"text":"二十五輛車那未來他們的賠償是否這邊公路局是可以我請公路局他們來研議一下因為對於他們這二十五台車來講可能對我們現在是個小事情不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個噩夢同時之間我也要建起我們交通部針對這個所有這個橋樑的尖峰畢竟來講現在極端氣候忽冷忽熱的這個整個工程面來講會對於是很大的一個整個工程面跟工程的這個建築是一個很大的挑戰"},{"start":1555.37,"end":1576.238,"text":"再來我想跟部長跟院長再談一下有關大眾運輸尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車基本上來講我必須在這邊對於行政院交通部給予高度的肯定因為我們基隆市的電動公車我們基隆市的公車已經三四十年沒有換了甚至我們基隆市的公車已經是全國算有名之一"},{"start":1576.738,"end":1604.019,"text":"但是因為交通部過去這一年來我們不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取還是說我們交通部部長也很願意育成此案所以針對這個電動公車把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範公司這件事情來講我們相對有些比較長足的成長基本上來講本席在這邊代表我們基隆通行組跟我們部長跟我們院長說聲謝謝不過我在這邊也要提到就是說"},{"start":1605.239,"end":1621.897,"text":"其實我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎目前應該有五家目前我們知道他們因為如果有五家的話那他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣"},{"start":1622.157,"end":1637.928,"text":"因為我知道說有幾家客運業者他們其實在做電動公車要汰換因為電動公車這件事情要2030全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的話那這件事來講電動公車要去上路第一個車子要有"},{"start":1638.208,"end":1666.493,"text":"第二個充電樁要有可是相對比較起來本來應該今年五月份都完全交車那變成是到今年九月份來才能交車那如果說是還沒有交車的像到明年可能才開始交車的可能會延後更久那我們也很清楚知道說成本上面的考量原物料現在越來越貴那我們針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少這點我本席是會滿擔心的請問部長跟院長未來針對這個案子對於車子的案子上面"},{"start":1667.173,"end":1686.933,"text":"有什麼想法既然現在我們有五家的公車所以讓大家來選擇那我希望業者能夠自己提升自己的品質 效率跟服務這個部分請部長來做說我想 因為行政院非常的支持所以對於這個公車的電動化跟無碳化的這個部分"},{"start":1687.253,"end":1715.568,"text":"我們持續在推進當中但2030年之前我們希望能夠完全落實完全的電動化基隆市政府其實當時在今年度也有申請了93輛車子目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛剩下的23輛其實我們會幫他保留著這個部分預算已經有匡列等他後續的年度如果他核定了這個部分我們還是會繼續來協助我們希望達到2030年完全的電動化"},{"start":1716.681,"end":1739.53,"text":"好 那有另外一件事情有另外一個案子就是我剛剛講到車子之外你有馬 沒有給馬吃的糧基本上馬也跑不壞 也跑不痛那我記得沒有錯的話 當初在屋的時候一個電動公車的充電樁好像是三千萬可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是八千萬"},{"start":1740.43,"end":1769.464,"text":"那中間這個我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁那這個案子現在來講的話能不能就是說這個案子我會覺得是說如果我們真的想要在本來計畫是2年到3年之內基隆全部的100多台的電動電動台的老舊公車下雨還會漏水老舊公車可以換成全新的電動公車那因為尤其在基隆會特別顯著因為基隆地方小那基隆的這個公車搭乘量是全台灣第二高那這一點話會讓人民很有感"},{"start":1769.944,"end":1792.172,"text":"這不只是說會是基隆市的政績也會是行政院的政績畢竟來講一個高低起伏很大的一個山區城市如果能夠成功的變成一個無碳運具的模範城市對於所有對於中華民國政府不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞那可是現在如果卡到說有馬沒有糧那不是很可惜嗎部長還有糧喔"},{"start":1795.145,"end":1823.285,"text":"這個補助的部分我們還是持續那當然物價一直在調漲我們在討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分去做討論但另外一個層面是我們讓這個電動裝使用的更有效率也就是說用AI的分析讓它一個電動裝可以充更多的車子這個部分我們也在努力研究當中不是說一台車就要配一個電動裝我們希望一個電動裝可以充的這個車子更多那我們需要設置的電動裝就可以更少這個部分我們也在研議當中"},{"start":1824.506,"end":1830.391,"text":"在研究當中我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公司的加碼 謝謝謝謝林沛祥委員質詢謝謝卓院長 相關部會所長備詢 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（15時33分）主席、各位同仁午安。有請卓院長跟法務部鄭部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長、法務部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，中華民國即將會面對超高齡社會的嚴峻問題，因此本人必須嚴肅的指出，我們的社會正在經歷歷史性的家庭結構轉型，但是民法繼承編卻仍停留在數十年前的大家庭思維，導致法制跟民情嚴重脫節。根據最新的統計，全國設籍2人以下，包括單身或頂客族的家庭占比將近5成，在主要的都會區甚至過半，然而我們很多單身或頂客族公民，在面臨生命終期規劃時，卻因現行民法第一千二百二十三條第四款的兄弟姊妹特留分規定，陷入財產自主權被侵害的困境。即使繼承人立下遺囑明確表達不願將財產分配給關係不睦、長期疏遠或從無貢獻的手足，法律仍強制這些手足享有應繼分三分之一的特留分，這種制度的設計不僅不公，更是對我們公民遺囑自由的踐踏。身為一個立法委員，本席不能接受國家法制形同懲罰選擇不孕或單身的國民！所以請問院長，行政院是否承認現行民法第一千二百二十三條第四款，已對數量龐大而且持續增長的單身跟頂客族群，構成不合理的財產權利侵害？"],["卓院長榮泰：民法當中對於法定的繼承權人，除了應繼分之外，有特留分的設計，希望不要因為太多的好惡，把一個人所有的權利給抹煞掉了，所以對於配偶跟子女之間的應繼分、特留分都有相同的保障，對兄弟姊妹之間也有特留分的保障，這是現在民法的規定跟設計，這個設計已經行之多年了。"],["林委員沛祥：我也想請問，行政院對於保障公民遺囑自由跟財產自主權的政策優先順序為何？是否同意個人在沒有核心家庭成員，像是子女、父母時，對其財產擁有完全的處分權呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這當然是一個可以討論的方向，但是我會更重視整個法律的衡平性和穩定性，如果這樣改過之後，會不會在繼承的訴訟上面徒增很多無謂的紛爭？"],["林委員沛祥：這就是等一下我們會提到的。現在我請教部長，根據中央政府所掌握的家庭人口結構變遷數據，在現今社會結構下，是否支持將兄弟姊妹視為法律上必須強制保障特留分的核心家庭成員？"],["鄭部長銘謙：法定特留分是應繼分的二分之一，我想特留分當然有遺囑的……剛才有說保證單身跟頂客族遺囑自由，這個是可以討論的。特留分當然是保證繼承權人的一個權利，因此是不是要保留，我們認為這是可以討論的。"],["林委員沛祥：好，法務部在研擬因應少子化跟高齡化社會相關配套政策時，是否會積極主張行政院加速推動繼承編的修法，以使法律規範匹配現代社會結構的現實呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想繼承權應繼分跟特留分的部分要與時俱進，我們會考慮到現在這個時代的需求，來思考這個要不要再做一個檢討，我想法律有它的安定性，要不要改還要廣納各界的意見，看要做怎樣的一個調整。"],["林委員沛祥：據我所了解，目前修法的方向可能研議將兄弟姊妹的特留分從三分之一微幅調降到四分之一，但是我想請問院長，這樣微幅調降比例的方案，是不是能夠根本解決被繼承人想完全排除兄弟姊妹的核心需求？如果我們採取這個折衷方案，是否會導致繼承的爭議跟法律訴訟，反而造成更大的社會成本呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是一體的兩面，因為你保留了特留分之後，不管被繼承人主張怎麼樣，都必須在這個法律的限制當中維護繼承權人基本的權利。但如果這個都拿掉，會變成0跟100之間的選擇，這個當中就會出現很多遺囑是真是假，或者是必須更多舉證來證明這個不公平的分配是被繼承人真正的意思……"],["林委員沛祥：院長，這就是我們一剛開始在提的，現在頂客族跟單身族越來越多了嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以如果兄弟姊妹少的話，特留分的意義……它並沒有那麼嚴重啊！"],["林委員沛祥：不是，我們不能預設立場兄弟姊妹少，而是說他們是不是能夠對自己的遺產有絕對的自主權，我們討論的重點不是在兄弟姊妹該分多少，而是他們覺得不想分兄弟姊妹的時候……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想還是要……"],["林委員沛祥：他們還是必須要分這個特留分，那不是一種不公平嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，公不公平大家可以討論，要廣納意見，尤其要給多少是屬於被繼承人遺囑上的權衡。"],["林委員沛祥：如果說他的繼承是在他生前就已經講好了，但是後面我們的法律如果沒有辦法符合他們這些頂客族跟單身族的需求，本席會覺得很可惜，本席發現……"],["卓院長榮泰：他們如果用生前的贈與就沒有這個限制。"],["林委員沛祥：所以這就是我們等一下講到的，其實我認同公民連署上面的主張，它是直接刪除民法第一千二百二十三條第四款，行政院是不是能夠以廢除兄弟姊妹特留分為目標進行修法研議，而不只是比例上面的微調呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛部長講了，這個我們必須廣納各界的意見，像是法律界的意見、很多民間的意見，還有學術界的意見，看怎麼樣讓這個法律能夠執行起來，除了穩定性之外，能夠在公平性上保障個人的基本權利，互相尊重……"],["林委員沛祥：有沒有一個時效性？因為我知道這些修法其實都是曠日費時的，我們現在是第十一屆立法委員，我不希望到第十三屆立法委員的時候還在討論，那時候搞不好全國已經超過七成以上都是單身族或頂客族，或者只有毛小孩，這是有可能發生的事情，尤其在高齡化社會，我們必須與時俱進。老實講，時空背景不同，這個修法其實是很有必要的，這句話我們在過去一年半之間常常聽到，但時空背景不同是這一次修法上面必須要重視的一點，以前我們沒想到頂客族會這麼多，現在的確這麼多了！所以我在這邊呼籲我們繼承的法制不應該成為現在公民財產自主權的最後一道障礙，而且法律的責任是替人民提供簡便、公平的途徑來實現其個人的意志，不是迫使我們公民耗費高昂的成本去尋求信託、保險等專業法律工具來規避法律規定，如果這種事情發生了，不但造成我們社會資源浪費，也凸顯這個法規基本上沒有與時俱進，法規本身是失能的。","我再強調一次，臺灣很快就會進入超高齡社會，而我們都是其中之一，我在這邊懇請行政院正視單身族跟頂客族群的權益，以保障遺囑自由為原則、以國際法制為借鏡，我們來採取行動，廢除不合時宜的兄弟姊妹特留分規定，從這方面來確保所有公民的財產自主權。家庭倫理沒有不好，但要與時俱進，現在大家庭的狀況已經越來越少了，如果沒有辦法保證頂客族跟單身族的財產自主權，我會覺得很可惜。剛剛行政院院長有提到要廣納各界討論，是否可以請行政院至少給予一個明確的承諾跟修法時程呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我沒有記錯，民法應該是從民國18年開始到現在，當中並沒有大幅度的修改，只有一些部分微微的修改，這種大觀念的轉變是比較缺乏的。當然我們必須迎合現在國際跟國家的情勢，跟外界來做一些探討，到底民法要不要朝向一個大規模的觀念改變、變革修正，因為茲事體大，牽動蠻多的，我跟委員承諾，我們來做這樣的徵詢，可以開始做這樣的討論，但時程我不敢說，因為各方的意見一定會很多。"],["林委員沛祥：我期待至少在我們這一屆有個開始、有個起頭……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以來討論。"],["林委員沛祥：今天我在總質詢有蠻難得的機會可以跟全國的民眾講，現在我們遇到超高齡社會，財產自主權尤其是遺囑自主權這件事情應該把它列上時程……"],["卓院長榮泰：請法務部……"],["林委員沛祥：像這樣子的狀況其實在很多都會區已經正在發生當中，與其一天到晚有這方面的爭執，倒不如行政院、我們現在整個政府針對這個法制可以把它完善，可以把它再進化，把這件事拿出來做討論。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請法務部能夠內部先做出一些法律意見的研討，再跟外界……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想我們再參考專家學者的意見……"],["林委員沛祥：好，如果可以的話，請……"],["鄭部長銘謙：配合現實上的需要，遺囑自由跟兄弟姊妹繼承權的權衡問題，這部分我們再來……"],["林委員沛祥：這方面如果有任何資訊，麻煩跟我們辦公室說明，也讓我們辦公室知道進度，好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再提書面給委員。"],["林委員沛祥：好的。再來請環境部彭部長，謝謝鄭部長。"],["主席：請環境部部長備詢。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：院長、部長，本席是基隆市唯一的一席區域立委，因此我要向院長、部長提出最嚴肅的控訴，基隆市天外天焚化爐的飛灰處理爭議已經不是一個地方個案，而是整個中央政府在環境政策、財政夥伴關係跟市場監管上，一連串所謂系統性失靈的國家級危機喔！謝國樑市長為了讓被占用多年的土地能夠復育成為還給市民的公園，讓基隆的廢棄物處理能夠從傳統掩埋升級到更環保、更資源化的水洗再利用技術，他做出決策終止充滿爭議的舊合約。然而，我們的地方政府在第一線為了力求改變、力求環保轉型而衝鋒陷陣的時候，後面的中央部會做了些什麼呢？撤銷補助、坐視壟斷、懲罰革新，環境部一紙公文就把原本承諾1.8億元的水洗設施經費一筆勾銷。院長，這不是中央請客、地方買單，嚴格講起來，這應該叫中央許願、地方活埋。","今年少了這1.8億的補助，會讓基隆未來每年都必須為飛灰處理額外燒掉超過3億元的預算，這3億元本來可以拿來幹嘛？可以改善基隆的交通、投資孩子的教育、照顧我們的長者，但是因為現在中央部會的政策髮夾彎，被市場壟斷機制給無情地吞噬。所以本席今天要求必須正視這場危機後面，中央三大不可迴避的責任：第一個，我想請問為什麼要去懲罰追求環保轉型的地方政府？根據資料，過去舊合約地方政府掩埋飛灰處理費每公噸只需1,400元，但是地方政府力求革新、終止舊約後，新的標案得標價卻一路飆漲到每公噸2萬5,000元，足足暴漲近18倍，這筆費用讓基隆市每年必須額外支出超過3億元。基隆市之所以願意負擔這個短期的陣痛，是因為我們有更長期的環保願景，我們要推動最先進的水洗飛灰再利用技術，讓飛灰無害化、資源化，而根據專業評估，水洗技術落實之後，每年的處理費就可以大幅度降低，從3億降低到1億，然而就在今年基隆最需要中央支持的關鍵時刻，我們收到什麼？我們收到環境部的一紙公文，明白告知原承諾補助總經費84%，約1.8億元的飛灰水洗設施經費確定撤銷。我在這邊正式詢問卓院長跟彭部長，當環境部大力倡導所謂資源循環零廢棄，為什麼在基隆決心要投入先進水洗技術的關鍵時刻，釜底抽薪，撤回這筆攸關成敗的1.8億補助呢？","院長，如果一個地方政府為了響應中央的環保政策而去改革，卻換來中央用撤銷補助的方式來懲罰，這是不是告訴全國所有縣市首長，誰想改革，誰就有可能會倒大楣？行政院是否認同這種懲罰式財政措施呢？是否該建立一個跨部會的協調機制，來確保未來中央對地方的重大補助承諾，不會再因單一部會的政策髮夾彎而輕易跳票呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，這並非一個懲罰，我想中央地方權限要有明確的劃分，這是地方自治精神所應該落實的。過去中央做了很多酌予補助的決定，那是在中央有財政能力的情況底下，未來中央、地方如果財政像現在所行的財政收支劃分法，中央財政能力大幅縮減的情況底下，就必須跟地方來研討所謂的中央地方權限的劃分，這個權限劃分必須要很精準，請部長來說明這個個案到底是什麼原因。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那是明年預計的計畫，今年其實送進來時我們也並沒有審核通過，因為今年財劃法過後，我們明年補助給地方的預算，基本上全部加起來大概只剩下600萬能夠額外再補助，所以這個就沒有辦法再補助。我們也希望未來，因為其實基隆的財務也有大幅顯著地提升，事實上按照原來規則，垃圾處理還是屬於地方的事務，但是未來如果我們可以爭取到相關的預算，當然我們很了解基隆的用心，但是因為財劃法過後，明年環境部可以給地方的預算真的是大幅度的刪減。"],["林委員沛祥：所以環境部撤銷這1.8億的決策依據，就是因為財劃法？對於哪一條行政命令、哪一條法律，或是哪一次專家會議都沒有，就是因為財劃法？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實因為我們每年就是……"],["林委員沛祥：就是因為財劃法，那……"],["彭部長啓明：現在送進來，我們要審核的是明年的預算，本身就有一個程序，它也沒有正式核可過。我們明年的預算，因為給地方的一般性補助款也明顯減少，所以基本上，它的優先順序相對就沒有辦法再補助。"],["林委員沛祥：所以這一筆1.8億的資金缺口，將會迫使基隆長期被鎖定在每公噸2萬5,000元的天價處理費上面，中央就是打算讓基隆市民用自己的血汗錢去填補中央政策所挖出來的大洞？行政院對於中央跟地方在重大環保基礎上、財政夥伴關係上面的承諾就是這樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您大概忽略了，如果照新的財劃法，明年基隆市政府財源應該是有所增加的，不應該為了這1.8億就付不出來，或是1.8億沒有中央的補助就會有困難，中央已經被拿掉4,165億，基隆會因為1.8億就發生財政困難嗎？不會。所以可以查一下明年基隆市……"],["莊部長翠雲：明年度比114年增加73億，原本114年是58億……"],["林委員沛祥：對，如果這樣講的話……"],["莊部長翠雲：但是115年是到130億，增加了73億。"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，請問您是？"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部莊部長。"],["林委員沛祥：不好意思，我還沒有請財政部上來，我只是說如果真的要扯的話，您知道今年基隆的一般性補助款從89億被砍到剩下9億嗎？您知道今年的計畫型補助款，基隆從53億被砍到23億嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：今年沒有啊！"],["林委員沛祥：計畫型補助款，歲入上面……"],["莊部長翠雲：114年沒有。"],["林委員沛祥：我是參加市務會議的時候看到的，所以變成是說，沒錯，基隆……"],["卓院長榮泰：您說的應該是明年。"],["林委員沛祥：對，明年。我們基隆多加73億的統籌分配款，但是實質上，我們的一般性補助款被砍了將近八十億。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就是水平分配不公平。"],["林委員沛祥：所以變成基隆還是短少37億啊！我們現在講的這1.8億是37億裡面可能最重要的一塊之一，因為今年花這1.8億之後，未來每年基隆就可以少花3億，這是為什麼今天在這個地方，這麼重要的全國議題上面，我特地把這1.8億拿出來講，1.8億在全國的預算裡面是鳳毛麟角，但是為什麼要特地拿出來講？因為這是有關後代的事情。","不好意思，其實我要質詢的是三個地方，這只是質基隆的財政而已。再來是有關……財政部長對不起，請請回座，謝謝。","再來，請問為何坐視市場壟斷跟二次污染風險呢？院長，這場爭議也體現了我們國家廢棄物管理體系的兩大結構破口，第一個是市場壟斷，第二個是監管失靈。如果在基隆舊有的在地廠商退場之後，全國的飛灰處理市場高度集中，單一集團幾乎掌握了全國將近九成的合約，當一個攸關民生事業的處理價格在缺乏競爭下可以暴增到18倍，本席認為這個已經不是所謂的市場機制，而是很明顯的市場失靈，所以也要請問院長，行政院的公平交易委員會、環境部，對於這樣明顯的市場集中度跟不合理的價格飆漲，有沒有啟動所謂市場壟斷或不當聯合行為的專案調查？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長有瞭解這個狀況嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是要源頭減量，像彰化也遇到類似的問題，他們努力做源頭減量，垃圾就少了大概三成，當然後面的飛灰就顯著地減少。他們另外開發了額外儲存飛灰的一個地方，自己就有辦法解決。我相信基隆如果很努力想辦法的話，應該也可以做得到。"],["林委員沛祥：所以都是我們基隆的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：對。其實這個就是需要大家自己努力解決，因為後端的處理是很貴的，源頭減量是最重要的。另外一個是最後的，如果真的沒有辦法源頭減量，還是有點飛灰的話，原有的暫置等於是掩埋場，或許可以把它活化來處理。"],["林委員沛祥：順便請問一下彭部長，您大力推動所謂資源化，想請問有關飛灰水洗這類高風險技術，中央的風險控管在哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上，現在如果有些飛灰可以最後的再利用、再處理，其實有一些縣市他們很努力在做顯著的去化，例如說像宜蘭，宜蘭把整個焚化爐附近的場域做完整的、全循環的處理，這是基隆可以學習的。"],["林委員沛祥：我想請問一下，環境部預計什麼時候可以提出所謂具體的排放標準草案呢？"],["彭部長啓明：排放標準？"],["林委員沛祥：對，針對水洗飛灰的劇毒廢水，環境部預計什麼時候可以提出比較具體的排放標準草案？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們現在已經有了，環管署已經有相關的標準草案出來了，這個其實是一個新的技術，但是我們期待……因為飛灰水洗還是把它稀釋掉，到地下水道的處理而已，但是最重要的是源頭減量能夠讓飛灰減少，這是最主要的……"],["林委員沛祥：開始執行了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你可以到宜蘭去看看，有些縣市遇到這個問題，他把它做成全循環，處理得很好。"],["林委員沛祥：如果還沒有完全執行之前，現在正在或即將運轉的相關設施，中央是否有立即生效的行政指導或監測要求？如果沒有的話，一旦發生污染，請問責任是在中央還是在地方？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上現在有一定的標準，而且最後處理是在你們污水處理管線的末端，那個就會做處理了。"],["林委員沛祥：我還是要再重新講一次，這件事，院長，1.8億其實對於行政院、對於整個中華民國政府是很少的一筆錢，但是我這邊要請院長去責成環境部，恢復基隆市對於天外天水洗飛灰設施1.8億的補助承諾，讓地方政府可以擺脫未來每年3億元的財務惡夢，順利完成得來不易的環保轉型，這是第一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是認為應該依照中央地方權限來劃分，否則財政收支劃分法4,165億，每個縣市如果像委員這樣子1.8億、2億，這叫鯨吞蠶食，又要鯨吞、又要蠶食，中央受不了。你看，花蓮一條溪也要中央去處理，你這個垃圾也要中央去處理，但錢從中央一直搬走，中央怎麼處理呢？"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我沒有提到花蓮。"],["卓院長榮泰：不能這樣鯨吞蠶食。"],["林委員沛祥：我沒有提到花蓮，我今天也不是來提花蓮，我們如果今天只是為了要打口水戰的話，我今天不用特地去提的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我是告訴你，別的縣市也有這樣的要求，所以不能大的拿走了，小的又要中央來補助。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，如果今天您是在我這位置上，你一定會很生氣。"],["卓院長榮泰：我不會去通過這樣的財劃法。"],["林委員沛祥：你一定會很生氣，因為你想幫地方做事。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是不會通過這樣的財劃法，除非我不想執政。"],["林委員沛祥：好，我還是再回到比較全國面的。請彭部長針對水洗飛灰跟劇毒的二次風險污染，全國的法規要趕快訂出來，而且可以的話，要請院長這邊建立跨部會的聯防機制，確保新的技術推動不會以犧牲環境為代價。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實有些縣市他們處理得很好，有機會的話，委員，我帶你到宜蘭看一看，好幾個縣市他們處理垃圾問題是真的自給自治，做得很不錯，我也期待基隆還有很多的縣市……因為垃圾處理就是地方的事務，他們必須挑起來，不是所有都是賴在我們身上來處理的。"],["林委員沛祥：我很期待……基本上來講，如果有關環境污染的事情不是只有一個縣市、一個縣市；處理垃圾也不是一個縣市、一個縣市的事情，處理垃圾國家也是有責任的。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個我同意委員……"],["林委員沛祥：如果只是單純的……"],["卓院長榮泰：全國垃圾處理的政策，中央要有一套，但如何執行？是地方來執行。"],["林委員沛祥：尤其是法規上面……"],["卓院長榮泰：但政策我們會來研究。"],["林委員沛祥：院長，我是說法規上面，法規如果你訂得不清楚，那你只是一天到晚講權責、權責、權責，其實這不是我們今天站在這邊的原因。今天站在國會殿堂就是處理全國的事務，如果沒有一個完整的法規，沒有好的配套措施的話，再好的事情、再立意良善的政策都會出問題的。"],["卓院長榮泰：法規當然要一致，政策也要一致，我們會從這個地方來協助大家，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：謝謝彭部長，未來我還是會跟你辦公室聯絡，請你過來跟我們聊聊。","再來，我想請交通部部長。"],["主席：麻煩請交通部長備詢。"],["林委員沛祥：時間不多了。部長，我在講電動公車之前，我們基隆今天發生一個蠻不幸的事情，還好目前我知道是無人傷亡，不過忽然二十幾台小客車在通勤的時候，他們的輪胎都在62號線西向上面全部被劃破。"],["陳部長世凱：對，在62號線。"],["林委員沛祥：那現在能不能跟我們講說目前交通部公路局的處置方式是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：目前都已經修復完畢了。今天早上發生之後，很快速的公路局就已經去現場修復完畢，有受到影響的是25輛車。"],["林委員沛祥：25輛車，那未來的賠償公路局是否可以跟他們……"],["陳部長世凱：我請公路局來研議一下，後續的部分我們來討論。"],["林委員沛祥：好，因為對於他們這25臺車來講，可能對我們是個小事情，不過這件事情對通勤族來講會是個惡夢。同時，我也要建請交通部針對所有橋梁的間縫峰……畢竟現在極端氣候，忽冷忽熱的，對整個工程還有建築會是一個很大的挑戰。","再來，我想跟部長、院長再談一下有關大眾運輸，尤其是有關基隆市的電動公車，基本上，在這邊我必須對於行政院及交通部給予高度的肯定，因為我們基隆市的公車已經三、四十年沒有換了，甚至基隆市的公車已經全國算是有名之一。但是交通部過去這一年來，不管是本席在立法院有極力爭取，還是交通部部長也很願意欲成此案，所以針對電動公車，把基隆市變成所謂無碳運具的模範城市這件事情來講，我們相對有比較長足的成長，基本上來講，本席在這邊代表我們基隆通勤族向部長及院長說聲謝謝！不過我這邊也要提到就是，我們電動公車就只有一家廠商嗎？我們電動公車的交車廠商就只有一家嗎？因為……"],["陳部長世凱：目前應該有5家喔！"],["林委員沛祥：如果有5家的話，他們現在交車的速度好像比預期落後很多嘛？"],["陳部長世凱：每一間的進度跟速度不太一樣。"],["林委員沛祥：對，我知道有幾家客運業者，其實在做電動公車的汰換，在2030年要全面無碳的大眾運輸工具的這件事來講，電動公車要上路，第一個是車子要有，第二個是充電樁要有，可是相對比較起來，本來在今年5月份應該都要完全交車，變成要到今年9月份才能交車。如果是還沒有交車的，可能要到明年才開始交車的，或可能會延後更久，我們也很清楚知道是成本上面的考量，原物料現在越來越貴，但針對電動公車的補助反而是越來越少，這點本席是會滿擔心的。請問部長跟院長，未來針對這車子的案子上有什麼想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：既然現在我們有5家的公車可以讓大家來選擇，我也希望業者能夠提升自己的品質、效率跟服務啦！針對這個部分，我請部長來做說明。"],["陳部長世凱：我想因為行政院非常的支持啦！所以對於公車的電動化跟無碳化的部分，我們持續在推進當中，到2030年之前希望能夠完全落實、完全的電動化。其實基隆市政府在今年度也有申請了93輛車子，目前基隆市政府自己核定了70輛，而剩下的23輛，我們會幫他們保留著，這部分預算已經有匡列，等後續的年度，如果他們核定了，我們還是會繼續來協助，我們希望2030年能達到完全的電動化。"],["林委員沛祥：好。另外一件事情，除我剛剛講到車子之外，你有馬，但沒有給馬吃的糧，基本上馬也跑不動。我記得沒有錯的話，當初在估的時候，一座電動公車的充電樁好像是3,000萬，可是後來好像今年我看到最新的報價是8,000萬，我記得基隆市至少要8個充電樁，這個案子現在來講的話，我會覺得如果我們真的想要……本來計畫是2年到3年之內，基隆全部一百多臺的老舊公車、下雨還會漏水的老舊公車，可以換成全新的電動公車，尤其在基隆會特別顯著。因為基隆地方小，公車搭乘量是全臺灣第二高，這一點會讓人民很有感，這不只會是基隆市的政績，也會是行政院的政績，畢竟來講，一個高低起伏很大的山區城市，如果能夠成功地變成一個無碳運具的模範城市，對於中華民國政府，不管地方還是中央都是很大的一個鼓舞。可是現在如果卡到有馬但沒有糧，不是很可惜嗎？我想請教部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長，還有糧嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，針對補助的部分，我們還是會持續啦！當然物價一直在調漲，我們再討論看看有沒有可能針對補助的部分再作討論。但另外一個層面是我們要讓這個電動樁使用得更有效率，也就是用AI的分析，讓它一個電動樁可以充更多的車子，針對這個部分，我們也在努力研究當中，不是一臺車就要配一個電動樁，我們希望一個電動樁可以充更多的車子，我們需要設置的電動樁就可以更少，這個部分我們也在研究當中。"],["林委員沛祥：我期待交通部未來對於基隆市電動公車的加碼，謝謝。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長及相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們休息10分鐘之後，請黃秀芳委員準備質詢。特別謝謝謝龍介委員陪同我們一起參與今天的施政總質詢。","我們現在休息。","休息（16時4分）","繼續開會（16時15分）"],["主席：報告院會，我們繼續開會。","接下來請黃秀芳委員質詢，徐欣瑩委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":299,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-3","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","林倩綺","林國成","陳培瑜","劉書彬","王義川","徐富癸","林沛祥","黃秀芳","徐欣瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2025-10-07"],"gazette_id":"1147801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147801_00009","1147801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第3次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長施政報告繼續質詢─繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1147801_00014"}}}