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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 108.075, \"end\": 108.095, \"score\": 0.016}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"戰\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 108.095, \"end\": 108.215, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.215, \"end\": 108.295, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 108.295, \"end\": 108.315, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 108.315, \"end\": 108.335, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 111.636, \"end\": 130.326, \"text\": \"救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 111.636, \"end\": 111.896, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"援\", \"start\": 111.896, \"end\": 112.336, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 112.336, \"end\": 112.977, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 112.977, \"end\": 113.697, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"尤\", \"start\": 113.697, \"end\": 114.037, 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417.313, \"end\": 417.413, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 417.413, \"end\": 417.694, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 417.694, \"end\": 417.874, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 417.874, \"end\": 418.014, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 418.014, \"end\": 418.355, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 418.355, \"end\": 418.575, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 418.575, \"end\": 418.816, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"刻\", \"start\": 418.816, \"end\": 419.196, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 419.196, \"end\": 419.357, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 419.357, \"end\": 419.597, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"昨\", \"start\": 419.597, \"end\": 419.717, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"晚\", \"start\": 419.717, \"end\": 419.818, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 419.818, \"end\": 420.098, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 420.098, \"end\": 420.178, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 420.178, \"end\": 422.182, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"盤\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 422.182, \"end\": 422.823, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 422.823, \"end\": 422.924, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 422.924, \"end\": 423.264, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"辛\", \"start\": 423.264, \"end\": 423.404, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"苦\", \"start\": 423.404, \"end\": 423.505, \"score\": 0.792}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 423.505, \"end\": 423.525, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,869 --> 00:00:16,497\n謝謝主席主席有請退伏會言主委請言主委還有北榮理副院長北榮還有台中高雄屏東跟的三位院長謝謝請各位院長上台備詢好\n\n2\n00:00:20,439 --> 00:00:38,821\n我想這個媒體已經報導了就是有關於這個我們現在在北榮有使用這個所謂李佳的這個貨運系統喔那麼我想其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證那麼李佳大榮的母公司是香港\n\n3\n00:00:39,662 --> 00:00:54,460\n李佳物流跟中國順豐控股是交叉持股那麼順豐控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議李佳控股董事長同時也是北京市政\n\n4\n00:00:56,498 --> 00:01:21,164\n市政的政協委員那這個部分我想中資的背景跟他的疑慮是存在的首先我要先就教我們的顏主委過去您也是國防部長這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮任性全民防衛動員演習那麼在這個部分我們演習的就是暫時的醫療救援跟物資的配給\n\n5\n00:01:24,205 --> 00:01:48,335\n那麼在媒體爆發這個事情之後其實本席有發函北榮北榮有回應就是有關於這個所謂冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運相關的這個物流來做簽約所以醫院是沒有辦法管的但是我要先問嚴主委的是您過去也當過國防部長我們當戰時我們的整體的\n\n6\n00:01:51,636 --> 00:02:10,326\n救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家\n\n7\n00:02:11,386 --> 00:02:23,679\n榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡那麼不知道主委在看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解然後有沒有認為有沒有需要改進的地方\n\n8\n00:02:24,175 --> 00:02:48,492\n各位委員報告我有去了解我們現在所屬的榮苑的這些醫療機構他們並沒有直接跟這家所謂的家裡的物流去簽約來合作沒有直接但是這些家裡物流它的下游的廠商有跟我們榮苑關於藥品這些物流情形是有的\n\n9\n00:02:49,813 --> 00:02:59,921\n但是目前現在藥的管理相關的法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景但是我個人覺得這是不允許的而且這很嚴重所以我也請我們各容院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中我們必須要加注一些限制的條件\n\n10\n00:03:11,630 --> 00:03:32,507\n關鍵的節點運輸的路線倉儲的位置這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關在履約的時候一定要特別注意請我們跟榮總醫院要這樣子做好謝謝這個主委的回覆因為我們知道如果根據中國的相關的法規尤其是他們的國家情報法你只要是\n\n11\n00:03:33,368 --> 00:03:50,578\n跟中國相關尤其是他們管轄轄下底下的這些企業他是可以把資料交給中國共產黨也就是像現在的中國如果他要求那麼對我們來講有四所榮民醫院有12個遍佈全台的分院\n\n12\n00:03:51,258 --> 00:04:07,819\n這一次我們在北榮發現了問題之後我其實想要問的是那麼從北榮到其他三個院因為現在我們簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示未來會在合約當中加注但是是不是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了\n\n13\n00:04:09,221 --> 00:04:11,423\n那麼這些藥廠的約什麼時候換會在什麼時候有機會換成要加注沒有所謂中資疑慮的這樣的物流公司要求藥廠那我請問北榮跟其他的三位院長\n\n14\n00:04:24,181 --> 00:04:40,515\n是委員好那我們也後來這個媒體爆發這個事情之後還有委員關心之後我們也特別了解了一下以台北榮總目前來看大概是差不多23%的物資可能是跟這個物流公司有關係不到四分之一不過我們也很重視這個問題是\n\n15\n00:04:41,636 --> 00:05:01,443\n按照目前我們的我們是跟藥廠簽約但藥廠在去委託他要找的物流公司嘛跟物流公司本身是沒有直接的一個合約的不過按照剛剛主委指示以及委員的關心的話我也注意到那個CDC疾管署他們有類似的問題那他們的回應或許也值得我們來做個參考他們意思說可以引用各支法\n\n16\n00:05:02,063 --> 00:05:22,052\n各司法裡面應該是21條然後是不是能夠對於一些資料能做一些特別是對境外的一個傳遞要做一個嚴格的限制另外其實目前我們按照簽約是按照工程會的標準的採購契約它裡面其實第10條第13也有特別強調說所有的資料是不允許去做任何的洩密的\n\n17\n00:05:22,492 --> 00:05:37,268\n但是那是我們台灣的國內法但是如果他是有中國的資金那麼他就會受到中國的長臂管轄他就可以把這些資料跟情報提供所以我希望剛剛主委講得非常清楚就是說雖然現在在所謂醫療資源\n\n18\n00:05:39,650 --> 00:05:43,512\n並沒有納入所謂的強力監管就是不可以擁有跟中資有相關的這些產業或者是集團資金來進入但是你們可以在你們的合約上面加注或者是排除所謂去紅供應鏈的部分那我現在要問的重點是說我知道大家現在都有約跟這些藥廠已經都有約了是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候\n\n19\n00:06:06,886 --> 00:06:16,988\n不要這個約一千五年十年等到你們要換約的時候來不及啦所有資料都已經洩密洩光光了所以我要求北榮然後台中榮總然後高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們的跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候來不來得及依照原主委的指示去在你們的合約當中加注\n\n20\n00:06:29,511 --> 00:06:45,021\n或者是來不來得及做一些修正我也不希望說商業合約因為這個部分要去毀約但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢好嗎是謝謝好那所以什麼時候可以給我一個答覆我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點好那另外三個也是立刻盤點好謝委員我們已經在盤點當中了謝謝謝謝是高雄榮總\n\n21\n00:06:56,992 --> 00:07:03,525\n報告委員屏東空中也是馬上立刻盤點其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點好謝謝主委謝謝辛苦謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n869\t16497\t謝謝主席主席有請退伏會言主委請言主委還有北榮理副院長北榮還有台中高雄屏東跟的三位院長謝謝請各位院長上台備詢好\n20439\t38821\t我想這個媒體已經報導了就是有關於這個我們現在在北榮有使用這個所謂李佳的這個貨運系統喔那麼我想其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證那麼李佳大榮的母公司是香港\n39662\t54460\t李佳物流跟中國順豐控股是交叉持股那麼順豐控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議李佳控股董事長同時也是北京市政\n56498\t81164\t市政的政協委員那這個部分我想中資的背景跟他的疑慮是存在的首先我要先就教我們的顏主委過去您也是國防部長這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮任性全民防衛動員演習那麼在這個部分我們演習的就是暫時的醫療救援跟物資的配給\n84205\t108335\t那麼在媒體爆發這個事情之後其實本席有發函北榮北榮有回應就是有關於這個所謂冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運相關的這個物流來做簽約所以醫院是沒有辦法管的但是我要先問嚴主委的是您過去也當過國防部長我們當戰時我們的整體的\n111636\t130326\t救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家\n131386\t143679\t榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡那麼不知道主委在看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解然後有沒有認為有沒有需要改進的地方\n144175\t168492\t各位委員報告 我有去了解我們現在所屬的榮苑的這些醫療機構他們並沒有直接跟這家所謂的家裡的物流去簽約來合作 沒有直接但是這些家裡物流它的下游的廠商有跟我們榮苑關於藥品這些物流情形是有的\n169813\t179921\t但是目前現在藥的管理相關的法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景但是我個人覺得這是不允許的而且這很嚴重所以我也請我們各容院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中我們必須要加注一些限制的條件\n191630\t212507\t關鍵的節點 運輸的路線倉儲的位置 這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關在履約的時候一定要特別注意請我們跟榮總醫院要這樣子做好 謝謝這個主委的回覆因為我們知道如果根據中國的相關的法規尤其是他們的國家情報法你只要是\n213368\t230578\t跟中國相關尤其是他們管轄 轄下底下的這些企業他是可以把資料交給中國共產黨也就是像現在的中國如果他要求那麼對我們來講有四所榮民醫院有12個遍佈全台的分院\n231258\t247819\t這一次我們在北榮發現了問題之後我其實想要問的是那麼從北榮到其他三個院因為現在我們簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示未來會在合約當中加注但是是不是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了\n249221\t251423\t那麼這些藥廠的約什麼時候換會在什麼時候有機會換成要加注沒有所謂中資疑慮的這樣的物流公司要求藥廠那我請問北榮跟其他的三位院長\n264181\t280515\t是委員好那我們也後來這個媒體爆發這個事情之後還有委員關心之後我們也特別了解了一下以台北榮總目前來看大概是差不多23%的物資可能是跟這個物流公司有關係不到四分之一不過我們也很重視這個問題是\n281636\t301443\t按照目前我們的我們是跟藥廠簽約但藥廠在去委託他要找的物流公司嘛跟物流公司本身是沒有直接的一個合約的不過按照剛剛主委指示以及委員的關心的話我也注意到那個CDC 疾管署他們有類似的問題那他們的回應或許也值得我們來做個參考他們意思說可以引用各支法\n302063\t322052\t各司法裡面應該是21條然後是不是能夠對於一些資料能做一些特別是對境外的一個傳遞要做一個嚴格的限制另外其實目前我們按照簽約是按照工程會的標準的採購契約它裡面其實第10條第13也有特別強調說所有的資料是不允許去做任何的洩密的\n322492\t337268\t但是那是我們台灣的國內法但是如果他是有中國的資金那麼他就會受到中國的長臂管轄他就可以把這些資料跟情報提供所以我希望剛剛主委講得非常清楚就是說雖然現在在所謂醫療資源\n339650\t343512\t並沒有納入所謂的強力監管就是不可以擁有跟中資有相關的這些產業或者是集團資金來進入但是你們可以在你們的合約上面加注或者是排除所謂去紅供應鏈的部分那我現在要問的重點是說我知道大家現在都有約跟這些藥廠已經都有約了是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候\n366886\t376988\t不要這個約一千五年十年等到你們要換約的時候來不及啦所有資料都已經洩密洩光光了所以我要求北榮然後台中榮總然後高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們的跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候來不來得及依照原主委的指示去在你們的合約當中加注\n389511\t405021\t或者是來不來得及做一些修正我也不希望說商業合約因為這個部分要去毀約但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢好嗎是 謝謝好 那所以什麼時候可以給我一個答覆我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點好 那另外三個也是立刻盤點好謝委員我們已經在盤點當中了 謝謝謝謝 是高雄榮總\n416992\t423525\t報告委員 屏東空中也是馬上立刻盤點其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點好 謝謝主委謝謝辛苦 謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席主席有請退伏會言主委請言主委還有北榮理副院長北榮還有台中高雄屏東跟的三位院長謝謝請各位院長上台備詢好\n我想這個媒體已經報導了就是有關於這個我們現在在北榮有使用這個所謂李佳的這個貨運系統喔那麼我想其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證那麼李佳大榮的母公司是香港\n李佳物流跟中國順豐控股是交叉持股那麼順豐控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議李佳控股董事長同時也是北京市政\n市政的政協委員那這個部分我想中資的背景跟他的疑慮是存在的首先我要先就教我們的顏主委過去您也是國防部長這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮任性全民防衛動員演習那麼在這個部分我們演習的就是暫時的醫療救援跟物資的配給\n那麼在媒體爆發這個事情之後其實本席有發函北榮北榮有回應就是有關於這個所謂冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運相關的這個物流來做簽約所以醫院是沒有辦法管的但是我要先問嚴主委的是您過去也當過國防部長我們當戰時我們的整體的\n救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家\n榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡那麼不知道主委在看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解然後有沒有認為有沒有需要改進的地方\n各位委員報告 我有去了解我們現在所屬的榮苑的這些醫療機構他們並沒有直接跟這家所謂的家裡的物流去簽約來合作 沒有直接但是這些家裡物流它的下游的廠商有跟我們榮苑關於藥品這些物流情形是有的\n但是目前現在藥的管理相關的法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景但是我個人覺得這是不允許的而且這很嚴重所以我也請我們各容院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中我們必須要加注一些限制的條件\n關鍵的節點 運輸的路線倉儲的位置 這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關在履約的時候一定要特別注意請我們跟榮總醫院要這樣子做好 謝謝這個主委的回覆因為我們知道如果根據中國的相關的法規尤其是他們的國家情報法你只要是\n跟中國相關尤其是他們管轄 轄下底下的這些企業他是可以把資料交給中國共產黨也就是像現在的中國如果他要求那麼對我們來講有四所榮民醫院有12個遍佈全台的分院\n這一次我們在北榮發現了問題之後我其實想要問的是那麼從北榮到其他三個院因為現在我們簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示未來會在合約當中加注但是是不是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了\n那麼這些藥廠的約什麼時候換會在什麼時候有機會換成要加注沒有所謂中資疑慮的這樣的物流公司要求藥廠那我請問北榮跟其他的三位院長\n是委員好那我們也後來這個媒體爆發這個事情之後還有委員關心之後我們也特別了解了一下以台北榮總目前來看大概是差不多23%的物資可能是跟這個物流公司有關係不到四分之一不過我們也很重視這個問題是\n按照目前我們的我們是跟藥廠簽約但藥廠在去委託他要找的物流公司嘛跟物流公司本身是沒有直接的一個合約的不過按照剛剛主委指示以及委員的關心的話我也注意到那個CDC 疾管署他們有類似的問題那他們的回應或許也值得我們來做個參考他們意思說可以引用各支法\n各司法裡面應該是21條然後是不是能夠對於一些資料能做一些特別是對境外的一個傳遞要做一個嚴格的限制另外其實目前我們按照簽約是按照工程會的標準的採購契約它裡面其實第10條第13也有特別強調說所有的資料是不允許去做任何的洩密的\n但是那是我們台灣的國內法但是如果他是有中國的資金那麼他就會受到中國的長臂管轄他就可以把這些資料跟情報提供所以我希望剛剛主委講得非常清楚就是說雖然現在在所謂醫療資源\n並沒有納入所謂的強力監管就是不可以擁有跟中資有相關的這些產業或者是集團資金來進入但是你們可以在你們的合約上面加注或者是排除所謂去紅供應鏈的部分那我現在要問的重點是說我知道大家現在都有約跟這些藥廠已經都有約了是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候\n不要這個約一千五年十年等到你們要換約的時候來不及啦所有資料都已經洩密洩光光了所以我要求北榮然後台中榮總然後高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們的跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候來不來得及依照原主委的指示去在你們的合約當中加注\n或者是來不來得及做一些修正我也不希望說商業合約因為這個部分要去毀約但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢好嗎是 謝謝好 那所以什麼時候可以給我一個答覆我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點好 那另外三個也是立刻盤點好謝委員我們已經在盤點當中了 謝謝謝謝 是高雄榮總\n報告委員 屏東空中也是馬上立刻盤點其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點好 謝謝主委謝謝辛苦 謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.869 --> 00:16.497\n謝謝主席主席有請退伏會言主委請言主委還有北榮理副院長北榮還有台中高雄屏東跟的三位院長謝謝請各位院長上台備詢好\n\n00:20.439 --> 00:38.821\n我想這個媒體已經報導了就是有關於這個我們現在在北榮有使用這個所謂李佳的這個貨運系統喔那麼我想其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證那麼李佳大榮的母公司是香港\n\n00:39.662 --> 00:54.460\n李佳物流跟中國順豐控股是交叉持股那麼順豐控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議李佳控股董事長同時也是北京市政\n\n00:56.498 --> 01:21.164\n市政的政協委員那這個部分我想中資的背景跟他的疑慮是存在的首先我要先就教我們的顏主委過去您也是國防部長這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮任性全民防衛動員演習那麼在這個部分我們演習的就是暫時的醫療救援跟物資的配給\n\n01:24.205 --> 01:48.335\n那麼在媒體爆發這個事情之後其實本席有發函北榮北榮有回應就是有關於這個所謂冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運相關的這個物流來做簽約所以醫院是沒有辦法管的但是我要先問嚴主委的是您過去也當過國防部長我們當戰時我們的整體的\n\n01:51.636 --> 02:10.326\n救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家\n\n02:11.386 --> 02:23.679\n榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡那麼不知道主委在看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解然後有沒有認為有沒有需要改進的地方\n\n02:24.175 --> 02:48.492\n各位委員報告我有去了解我們現在所屬的榮苑的這些醫療機構他們並沒有直接跟這家所謂的家裡的物流去簽約來合作沒有直接但是這些家裡物流它的下游的廠商有跟我們榮苑關於藥品這些物流情形是有的\n\n02:49.813 --> 02:59.921\n但是目前現在藥的管理相關的法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景但是我個人覺得這是不允許的而且這很嚴重所以我也請我們各容院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中我們必須要加注一些限制的條件\n\n03:11.630 --> 03:32.507\n關鍵的節點運輸的路線倉儲的位置這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關在履約的時候一定要特別注意請我們跟榮總醫院要這樣子做好謝謝這個主委的回覆因為我們知道如果根據中國的相關的法規尤其是他們的國家情報法你只要是\n\n03:33.368 --> 03:50.578\n跟中國相關尤其是他們管轄轄下底下的這些企業他是可以把資料交給中國共產黨也就是像現在的中國如果他要求那麼對我們來講有四所榮民醫院有12個遍佈全台的分院\n\n03:51.258 --> 04:07.819\n這一次我們在北榮發現了問題之後我其實想要問的是那麼從北榮到其他三個院因為現在我們簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示未來會在合約當中加注但是是不是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了\n\n04:09.221 --> 04:11.423\n那麼這些藥廠的約什麼時候換會在什麼時候有機會換成要加注沒有所謂中資疑慮的這樣的物流公司要求藥廠那我請問北榮跟其他的三位院長\n\n04:24.181 --> 04:40.515\n是委員好那我們也後來這個媒體爆發這個事情之後還有委員關心之後我們也特別了解了一下以台北榮總目前來看大概是差不多23%的物資可能是跟這個物流公司有關係不到四分之一不過我們也很重視這個問題是\n\n04:41.636 --> 05:01.443\n按照目前我們的我們是跟藥廠簽約但藥廠在去委託他要找的物流公司嘛跟物流公司本身是沒有直接的一個合約的不過按照剛剛主委指示以及委員的關心的話我也注意到那個CDC疾管署他們有類似的問題那他們的回應或許也值得我們來做個參考他們意思說可以引用各支法\n\n05:02.063 --> 05:22.052\n各司法裡面應該是21條然後是不是能夠對於一些資料能做一些特別是對境外的一個傳遞要做一個嚴格的限制另外其實目前我們按照簽約是按照工程會的標準的採購契約它裡面其實第10條第13也有特別強調說所有的資料是不允許去做任何的洩密的\n\n05:22.492 --> 05:37.268\n但是那是我們台灣的國內法但是如果他是有中國的資金那麼他就會受到中國的長臂管轄他就可以把這些資料跟情報提供所以我希望剛剛主委講得非常清楚就是說雖然現在在所謂醫療資源\n\n05:39.650 --> 05:43.512\n並沒有納入所謂的強力監管就是不可以擁有跟中資有相關的這些產業或者是集團資金來進入但是你們可以在你們的合約上面加注或者是排除所謂去紅供應鏈的部分那我現在要問的重點是說我知道大家現在都有約跟這些藥廠已經都有約了是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候\n\n06:06.886 --> 06:16.988\n不要這個約一千五年十年等到你們要換約的時候來不及啦所有資料都已經洩密洩光光了所以我要求北榮然後台中榮總然後高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們的跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候來不來得及依照原主委的指示去在你們的合約當中加注\n\n06:29.511 --> 06:45.021\n或者是來不來得及做一些修正我也不希望說商業合約因為這個部分要去毀約但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢好嗎是謝謝好那所以什麼時候可以給我一個答覆我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點好那另外三個也是立刻盤點好謝委員我們已經在盤點當中了謝謝謝謝是高雄榮總\n\n06:56.992 --> 07:03.525\n報告委員屏東空中也是馬上立刻盤點其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點好謝謝主委謝謝辛苦謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.869,"end":16.497,"text":"謝謝主席主席有請退伏會言主委請言主委還有北榮理副院長北榮還有台中高雄屏東跟的三位院長謝謝請各位院長上台備詢好"},{"start":20.439,"end":38.821,"text":"我想這個媒體已經報導了就是有關於這個我們現在在北榮有使用這個所謂李佳的這個貨運系統喔那麼我想其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證那麼李佳大榮的母公司是香港"},{"start":39.662,"end":54.46,"text":"李佳物流跟中國順豐控股是交叉持股那麼順豐控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議李佳控股董事長同時也是北京市政"},{"start":56.498,"end":81.164,"text":"市政的政協委員那這個部分我想中資的背景跟他的疑慮是存在的首先我要先就教我們的顏主委過去您也是國防部長這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮任性全民防衛動員演習那麼在這個部分我們演習的就是暫時的醫療救援跟物資的配給"},{"start":84.205,"end":108.335,"text":"那麼在媒體爆發這個事情之後其實本席有發函北榮北榮有回應就是有關於這個所謂冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運相關的這個物流來做簽約所以醫院是沒有辦法管的但是我要先問嚴主委的是您過去也當過國防部長我們當戰時我們的整體的"},{"start":111.636,"end":130.326,"text":"救援的物資尤其是醫療的物資或者是我們救援相關所需要的鏈結如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了是不是很危險那麼有北榮這個問題在之外另外幾家"},{"start":131.386,"end":143.679,"text":"榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡那麼不知道主委在看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解然後有沒有認為有沒有需要改進的地方"},{"start":144.175,"end":168.492,"text":"各位委員報告 我有去了解我們現在所屬的榮苑的這些醫療機構他們並沒有直接跟這家所謂的家裡的物流去簽約來合作 沒有直接但是這些家裡物流它的下游的廠商有跟我們榮苑關於藥品這些物流情形是有的"},{"start":169.813,"end":179.921,"text":"但是目前現在藥的管理相關的法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景但是我個人覺得這是不允許的而且這很嚴重所以我也請我們各容院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中我們必須要加注一些限制的條件"},{"start":191.63,"end":212.507,"text":"關鍵的節點 運輸的路線倉儲的位置 這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關在履約的時候一定要特別注意請我們跟榮總醫院要這樣子做好 謝謝這個主委的回覆因為我們知道如果根據中國的相關的法規尤其是他們的國家情報法你只要是"},{"start":213.368,"end":230.578,"text":"跟中國相關尤其是他們管轄 轄下底下的這些企業他是可以把資料交給中國共產黨也就是像現在的中國如果他要求那麼對我們來講有四所榮民醫院有12個遍佈全台的分院"},{"start":231.258,"end":247.819,"text":"這一次我們在北榮發現了問題之後我其實想要問的是那麼從北榮到其他三個院因為現在我們簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示未來會在合約當中加注但是是不是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了"},{"start":249.221,"end":251.423,"text":"那麼這些藥廠的約什麼時候換會在什麼時候有機會換成要加注沒有所謂中資疑慮的這樣的物流公司要求藥廠那我請問北榮跟其他的三位院長"},{"start":264.181,"end":280.515,"text":"是委員好那我們也後來這個媒體爆發這個事情之後還有委員關心之後我們也特別了解了一下以台北榮總目前來看大概是差不多23%的物資可能是跟這個物流公司有關係不到四分之一不過我們也很重視這個問題是"},{"start":281.636,"end":301.443,"text":"按照目前我們的我們是跟藥廠簽約但藥廠在去委託他要找的物流公司嘛跟物流公司本身是沒有直接的一個合約的不過按照剛剛主委指示以及委員的關心的話我也注意到那個CDC 疾管署他們有類似的問題那他們的回應或許也值得我們來做個參考他們意思說可以引用各支法"},{"start":302.063,"end":322.052,"text":"各司法裡面應該是21條然後是不是能夠對於一些資料能做一些特別是對境外的一個傳遞要做一個嚴格的限制另外其實目前我們按照簽約是按照工程會的標準的採購契約它裡面其實第10條第13也有特別強調說所有的資料是不允許去做任何的洩密的"},{"start":322.492,"end":337.268,"text":"但是那是我們台灣的國內法但是如果他是有中國的資金那麼他就會受到中國的長臂管轄他就可以把這些資料跟情報提供所以我希望剛剛主委講得非常清楚就是說雖然現在在所謂醫療資源"},{"start":339.65,"end":343.512,"text":"並沒有納入所謂的強力監管就是不可以擁有跟中資有相關的這些產業或者是集團資金來進入但是你們可以在你們的合約上面加注或者是排除所謂去紅供應鏈的部分那我現在要問的重點是說我知道大家現在都有約跟這些藥廠已經都有約了是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候"},{"start":366.886,"end":376.988,"text":"不要這個約一千五年十年等到你們要換約的時候來不及啦所有資料都已經洩密洩光光了所以我要求北榮然後台中榮總然後高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們的跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候來不來得及依照原主委的指示去在你們的合約當中加注"},{"start":389.511,"end":405.021,"text":"或者是來不來得及做一些修正我也不希望說商業合約因為這個部分要去毀約但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢好嗎是 謝謝好 那所以什麼時候可以給我一個答覆我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點好 那另外三個也是立刻盤點好謝委員我們已經在盤點當中了 謝謝謝謝 是高雄榮總"},{"start":416.992,"end":423.525,"text":"報告委員 屏東空中也是馬上立刻盤點其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點好 謝謝主委謝謝辛苦 謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時48分）謝謝主席。主席，有請退輔會嚴主委。"],["主席：請嚴主委。"],["林委員楚茵：還有北榮李副院長。"],["主席：請北榮。"],["林委員楚茵：還有臺中、高雄、屏東榮總3位院長，謝謝。"],["主席：請各位院長上臺備詢。"],["嚴主任委員德發：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：我想媒體已經報導了，就是有關於現在北榮有使用嘉里的貨運系統。其實本席看了媒體的報導之後也特別去查證，嘉里大榮的母公司是香港嘉里物流，跟中國順風控股是交叉持股，順風控股跟中國解放軍的空軍簽有戰略合作協議，嘉里控股董事長同時也是北京市政的政協委員，我想這個部分的中資背景及疑慮是存在的。","首先，我要先就教嚴主委，過去您也是國防部部長，這個事件的爆發是源自於今年7月的時候，因為各個城市都舉行了城鎮韌性全民防衛動員演習，我們演習的就是戰時醫療救援及物資配給。在媒體爆發這個事情之後，其實本席有發函北榮，北榮有回應，冷鏈的部分是藥廠去跟貨運的物流簽約，所以醫院是沒有辦法管的。但是我要先問嚴主委的是，您過去也當過國防部部長，戰時整體的救援物資（尤其是醫療的物資）或者是救援相關所需要的鏈結，如果在貨運這一塊就直接被斷鏈了，是不是很危險？除了北榮有這個問題之外，另外幾家榮民醫院會不會也發生同樣的狀況？我認為演習就是找出問題在哪裡，不知道主委看到這個報導之後有沒有去了解？你認為有沒有需要改進的地方？"],["嚴主任委員德發：跟委員報告，我有去了解，我們現在所屬榮院這些醫療機構並沒有直接跟這家嘉里物流簽約合作，但是嘉里物流下游的廠商跟我們榮院關於藥品物流的情形是有的，雖然目前醫藥管理的相關法規沒有限制物流業者的中資背景，但是我個人覺得這是不允許的，而且這很嚴重。所以我也請各榮院去研究將來這些藥商的合約當中，我們必須要加註一些限制條件，關鍵的節點、運輸的路線、倉儲的位置、這些資訊的保密都要嚴格把關，在履約的時候一定要特別注意，我請各榮總醫院要這樣子做。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝主委的回復。我們知道，如果根據中國相關的法規，尤其是他們的國家情報法，只要是跟中國相關、尤其是他們管轄轄下、底下的企業，他可以要求把資料交給中國共產黨，也就是現在的中國。對我們來講，有4所榮民醫院、12個遍布全臺的分院，這次我們在北榮發現了問題之後，我想要問的是，從北榮到其他3個院，因為現在簽的合約裡面如果就主委現在的指示，未來會在合約當中加註，但是你們現在手頭上有很多的合約是已經簽了，這些藥廠的約什麼時候換？會在什麼時候有機會換成要加註沒有中資疑慮的物流公司，並要求藥廠？我請問北榮院長及其他3位院長。"],["李副院長偉強：委員好。媒體爆發這個訊息及委員關心之後，我們也特別了解了一下，以臺北榮總目前來看，大概差不多23%的物資可能跟這個物流公司有關係，不到四分之一，不過我們也很重視這個問題。目前我們是跟藥廠簽約，藥廠再去委託他們要找的物流公司，我們跟物流公司本身沒有直接的合約。不過按照剛剛主委指示及委員的關心，我也注意到CDC（疾管署）也有類似的問題，他們的回應或許值得我們做個參考，他們的意思是可以引用個資法第二十一條，對於一些資料，特別是境外的傳遞，要做嚴格的限制。另外，目前我們的簽約是按照工程會標準的採購契約，裡面第十條及第十三條其實也有特別強調所有的資料不允許任何洩密的……"],["林委員楚茵：那是我們臺灣的國內法，但是如果它有中國的資金，就會受到中國的長臂管轄，它就可以把這些資料及情報提供出去。剛剛主委講得非常清楚，雖然現在醫療資源並沒有納入強力監管，就是不可以跟中資有相關的產業、集團或資金進入，但是你們可以在合約上面加註或者是排除紅色供應鏈的部分。我現在要問的重點是，我知道大家現在跟這些藥廠已經都有約了，是不是可以回去盤點這些約到什麼時候？"],["李副院長偉強：是。"],["林委員楚茵：不要這個約一簽5年、10年，等到你們要換約了的時候都來不及了，所以資料都已經洩密洩光光了。所以我要求北榮、臺中榮總、高雄榮總跟屏東榮總回去看看你們跟藥廠的合約是到什麼時候，來不來得及依照嚴主委的指示，在你們的合約當中加註；或者是來不來得及做一些修正，我也不希望商業合約因為這個原因而去毀約，但是至少要來得及亡羊補牢，好嗎？"],["李副院長偉強：是，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以什麼時候可以給我一個答復？"],["李副院長偉強：我們一回去馬上立刻來盤點。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那另外三個呢？"],["傅院長雲慶：也是立刻盤點。"],["陳院長金順：謝謝委員，我們已經在盤點當中了，謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：這是？"],["陳院長金順：高雄榮總。"],["王院長瑞祥：報告委員，屏東榮總也是馬上立刻盤點，其實我們昨晚也開始在盤點了。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。主委辛苦了，謝謝。"],["嚴主任委員德發：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-2","speakers":["馬文君","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","羅美玲","林楚茵","黃仁","陳冠廷","王定宇","徐巧芯","邱志偉","賴惠員","林憶君","賴士葆","陳永康"],"page_start":207,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員嚴德發報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00011"}}}