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\"end\": 476.851, \"score\": 0.93}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,780 --> 00:00:04,002\n謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的\n\n2\n00:00:26,788 --> 00:00:53,426\n第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組\n\n3\n00:00:54,605 --> 00:01:20,235\n你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸\n\n4\n00:01:25,478 --> 00:01:52,124\n我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選對吧\n\n5\n00:01:54,110 --> 00:02:09,164\n那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻\n\n6\n00:02:13,956 --> 00:02:26,920\n我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是\n\n7\n00:02:35,683 --> 00:03:02,521\n得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎\n\n8\n00:03:04,201 --> 00:03:20,572\n這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字\n\n9\n00:03:22,293 --> 00:03:43,998\n今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎\n\n10\n00:03:45,339 --> 00:03:53,589\n我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來\n\n11\n00:03:54,926 --> 00:04:22,215\n他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制\n\n12\n00:04:22,657 --> 00:04:49,678\n但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛\n\n13\n00:04:50,511 --> 00:05:18,633\n那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬\n\n14\n00:05:19,352 --> 00:05:44,575\n兩百多萬花了這麼多錢效果怎麼樣目前已經上線有試案正在使用正在使用嘛那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到因為我們是一個獨立機關所以要等\n\n15\n00:05:45,390 --> 00:06:14,967\n那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想\n\n16\n00:06:15,632 --> 00:06:43,207\n那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛\n\n17\n00:06:43,666 --> 00:07:02,616\n我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了\n\n18\n00:07:03,993 --> 00:07:18,452\n我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实\n\n19\n00:07:19,013 --> 00:07:40,120\n到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署\n\n20\n00:07:42,509 --> 00:07:56,851\n你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n780\t4002\t謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的\n26788\t53426\t第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組\n54605\t80235\t你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸\n85478\t112124\t我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對 你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選 對吧\n114110\t129164\t那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻\n133956\t146920\t我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是\n155683\t182521\t得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎\n184201\t200572\t這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字\n202293\t223998\t今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎\n225339\t233589\t我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來\n234926\t262215\t他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制\n262657\t289678\t但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛\n290511\t318633\t那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬\n319352\t344575\t兩百多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等\n345390\t374967\t那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想\n375632\t403207\t那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛\n403666\t422616\t我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了\n423993\t438452\t我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实\n439013\t460120\t到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署\n462509\t476851\t你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了\n","txt":"謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的\n第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組\n你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸\n我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對 你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選 對吧\n那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻\n我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是\n得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎\n這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字\n今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎\n我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來\n他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制\n但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛\n那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬\n兩百多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等\n那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想\n那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛\n我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了\n我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实\n到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署\n你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.780 --> 00:04.002\n謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的\n\n00:26.788 --> 00:53.426\n第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組\n\n00:54.605 --> 01:20.235\n你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸\n\n01:25.478 --> 01:52.124\n我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選對吧\n\n01:54.110 --> 02:09.164\n那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻\n\n02:13.956 --> 02:26.920\n我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是\n\n02:35.683 --> 03:02.521\n得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎\n\n03:04.201 --> 03:20.572\n這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字\n\n03:22.293 --> 03:43.998\n今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎\n\n03:45.339 --> 03:53.589\n我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來\n\n03:54.926 --> 04:22.215\n他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制\n\n04:22.657 --> 04:49.678\n但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛\n\n04:50.511 --> 05:18.633\n那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬\n\n05:19.352 --> 05:44.575\n兩百多萬花了這麼多錢效果怎麼樣目前已經上線有試案正在使用正在使用嘛那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到因為我們是一個獨立機關所以要等\n\n05:45.390 --> 06:14.967\n那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想\n\n06:15.632 --> 06:43.207\n那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛\n\n06:43.666 --> 07:02.616\n我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了\n\n07:03.993 --> 07:18.452\n我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实\n\n07:19.013 --> 07:40.120\n到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署\n\n07:42.509 --> 07:56.851\n你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.78,"end":4.002,"text":"謝謝主席李主委有請請到主委主委早安剛剛你講說憲法裡面有明文規定我們的總統選擇是一輪相對多數決是這樣嗎我的理解憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定第二條第一項怎麼寫的"},{"start":26.788,"end":53.426,"text":"第二條第一項它是我整個念出來總統副總統候選人因聯名登記選票上同一組圈選以得票最多一組為當選對不對那我們大部分在討論說法律的修正會不會抵觸憲法對不對我們在討論憲政爭議的時候當然講我的法律會不會抵觸憲法就是跟憲法走向相悖的這樣一個概念的時候這如果是二輪你要求過半才能當選多一個門檻的時候它會不會是選票上面最多數的一組"},{"start":54.605,"end":80.235,"text":"你聽得懂我的意思嗎對不起就是說如果今天是二輪投票或者是說一輪投票就要當選他就要得到過半的票數如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數他會不是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組會不會一定會嘛我選總統我拿過半的票我就是一定會比其他人多對不對那是不是符合憲法徵求條文得票最多的一組為當選那請問有抵觸還是沒有抵觸"},{"start":85.478,"end":112.124,"text":"我先來憲法徵修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求並沒有要求你得票對 你講得很好他並沒有要求一定要這樣對不對但是當你是這樣的時候你符不符合憲法的規定憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選 對吧"},{"start":114.11,"end":129.164,"text":"那當超過50%的門檻他也是最多數相對多數他也是最多數他們都沒有違反憲法的規定應該是這樣理解吧所以你不能夠說沒有達到二分之一以上沒有絕對多數的話你就不算當選因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻"},{"start":133.956,"end":146.92,"text":"我剛剛問你講我們大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否叫抵觸嘛也就是說他違反了憲法規定的方向那當然他就是違憲沒有辦法去做處理但這件事情他真的有抵觸憲法嗎他實際上會可能會有超過絕對的多數對嘛不管他有沒有超過絕對多數他都是"},{"start":155.683,"end":182.521,"text":"得票最多的一組嘛所以它其實是沒有抵觸的問題好沒關係這是法律見解你把它定為門檻就會有抵觸這個是法律見解的問題你也不是大法官我也不是大法官沒關係但我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少個主委有了解嗎我目前手上沒有這個資料沒關係有40個左右啦國家大概是採取總統人民直選嘛那你知道多少是用絕對多數多少用相對多數嗎"},{"start":184.201,"end":200.572,"text":"這個相關的資料我們還要再整理目前是這樣40個國家裡面只有9個國家是採取相對多數包含中華民國在內那其他的國家包含法國芬蘭奧地利葡萄牙波蘭羅馬尼亞捷克斯洛伐克巴西智利以及等等都是採取兩輪多數字"},{"start":202.293,"end":223.998,"text":"今天大家去討論這個事情無非是因為現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突嘛招致很多的憲政僵局啦很多人去談說兩輪投票會不會增加很多的選務成本大家非常麻煩等等但是你想想看因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決難道不會給國家給社會帶來更大的成本嗎"},{"start":225.339,"end":233.589,"text":"我個人啦我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境那要解決這些困境要掙脫出來"},{"start":234.926,"end":262.215,"text":"他的方式其實是非常多的那在總統選制的部分的一個改變是不是足以來改變目前朝野之間對立的這種狀況我個人認為是還有很多地方需要努力沒關係這畢竟是你的個人意見但因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法徵求條文的二項二條一項規定但憲法46條也有規定政府總統的選舉以法律定制"},{"start":262.657,"end":289.678,"text":"但沒關係這個題目反正才剛開始我們也不要在這個場合佔用太多的時間我還是要問你一些選務相關的我要問的是這段時間我們除了立法院之前提的這個核能發電的這個研議公投之外還有四個這個由公民團體提出的公民投票那他在這個內容上面其實相對單純他其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果嘛所以他希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除對不對那講到公民投票就講到連署嘛"},{"start":290.511,"end":318.633,"text":"那講到連署大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署剛剛張志龍委員也有關心這個題目請問電子連署總共花了我們國家建制這一套電子連署設備花了多少資源這你們要不要說明那個幕僚單位補充一下建制的費用當初在建制罷免的時候花了四百多萬沒有啦我問公投啦公投的話是花兩百多萬"},{"start":319.352,"end":344.575,"text":"兩百多萬 花了這麼多錢 效果怎麼樣目前已經上線 有試案正在使用正在使用嘛 那使用的結果怎麼樣你們有沒有稍微觀察一下雖然你們是 你們當然不能干涉連署的內容這個本席完全理解 但問題是說你既然有提供這樣的一個機制 變名等等那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣應該等到 因為我們是一個獨立機關 所以要等"},{"start":345.39,"end":374.967,"text":"那個領銜人送件來之後我們才會知道他送來的件數有多少因為這只是一個連署的一個工具而已只是一個工具而已那你們以你們目前現在可以掌握的資料跟了解的狀況你覺得大家有很充分的在使用這個機制嗎我們不方便主動的去了解你連署的狀況但是從媒體報導當然我們也要去關心好像進行的速度不盡理想"},{"start":375.632,"end":403.207,"text":"那原因是什麼呢你們有沒有去做了解其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦就當然我講你不要去干預連署但是你稍微你講說有這樣的一個機制可以去應用我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同但是我覺得工具就是工具啊而且這個未來都可以參酌既然都花錢去建置這個東西的話你本來就要去檢討它難得有在實踐的一個情況之下你要去了解說它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙嘛"},{"start":403.666,"end":422.616,"text":"我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑你可以去方便的連署希望大家多多的利用但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了"},{"start":423.993,"end":438.452,"text":"我们就不方便再去做这个工作因为这个会被误解会被误读为这个本席也不是不能理解因为其实新闻大概都有露出就是说他们还是采取传统的要去设立联署站等等那这些东西其实"},{"start":439.013,"end":460.12,"text":"到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限我是希望這個反正是結束之後你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整這到底要好用不好用不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化我們目前大概還有一個進階的做法目前就是還在研議之中就是用行動的連署行動連署"},{"start":462.509,"end":476.851,"text":"你就是做好完整的幾個案例的調查跟檢討之後再來去思考調整的方案啦這本期做一個提醒啦好不好這希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化跟節省社會成本上面可以嗎好謝謝主委辛苦了"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時38分）謝謝主席，李主委有請。"],["主席：請主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：主委早安。剛剛你說憲法有明文規定，我們的總統選制是一輪相對多數決，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我的理解，這是憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二條第一項是怎麼寫的？"],["李主任委員進勇：第二條第一項，我整個唸出來……"],["牛委員煦庭：「總統、副總統候選人應聯名登記，在選票上同列一組圈選，以得票最多之一組為當選。」對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：大部分在討論法律的修正會不會牴觸憲法，在討論憲政爭議的時候，法律會不會牴觸憲法，也就是跟憲法走向是相背這樣的概念。如果是二輪，也就是要求過半才能當選，多一個門檻的時候，他會不會是選票上面最多數的一組？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：對不起。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是如果今天是二輪投票，或者是一輪投票就要當選，他就要得到過半的票數，如果一組候選人在這個選舉裡面得到了過半的票數，他會不會是在這個對戰組合裡面最多數的那一組？會不會？一定會嘛！選總統時拿過半的票，就是一定會比其他人多，對不對？那是不是符合憲法增修條文中，得票最多的一組為當選，請問是有牴觸還是沒有牴觸？"],["李主任委員進勇：憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定並沒有要求得票的門檻……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你講得很好，它並沒有要求一定要這樣，對不對？但是當是這樣的時候，符不符合憲法的規定？憲法只有講是最多數的人為當選，對吧？當超過50%的門檻下是最多數，相對多數下也是最多數，都沒有違反憲法的規定，應該是這樣理解吧？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以不能說沒有達到二分之一以上，沒有絕對多數的話，就不算當選，因為憲法並沒有設這個門檻。"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛問你，大部分在討論法律跟憲法是否牴觸嘛！也就是違反了憲法規定的方向，當然當中一個就是違憲，沒有辦法去做處理，但這件事情真的有牴觸憲法嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：實際上可能會有超過，會有絕對的多數，但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！不管有沒有超過絕對多數，他都是得票最多的一組嘛！所以其實是沒有牴觸的問題，好，沒關係，這是法律見解……"],["李主任委員進勇：不是，把它訂為門檻就會有牴觸的問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個是法律見解的問題，你也不是大法官，我也不是大法官，沒關係……"],["李主任委員進勇：好，沒有……"],["牛委員煦庭：我要問的是世界上採取總統直選的國家有多少？主委有瞭解嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我目前手上沒有這個資料。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，大概有40個左右的國家是採取總統人民直選，那你知道多少是用絕對多數，多少用相對多數嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：相關的資料我們還要再整理。"],["牛委員煦庭：目前世界上40個國家裡面，只有9個國家是採取相對多數，包含中華民國在內，其他的國家包含法國、芬蘭、奧地利、葡萄牙、波蘭、羅馬尼亞、捷克、斯洛伐克、巴西、智利等等，都是採取兩輪多數制。今天大家去討論這個事情，無非現在就是因為少數總統跟國會的方向嚴重的衝突，招致很多的憲政僵局。很多人在談兩輪投票會不會增加大量的選務成本以及大家會非常麻煩等等，但是你想想看，因為選制造成的憲政僵局沒有辦法解決，難道不會給國家、社會帶來更大的成本嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我個人認為目前國家的確是遭遇到一些困境。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：要解決這些困境、要掙脫出來，它的方式其實是非常多的，在總統選制部分的改變，是不是足以改變目前朝野之間對立的狀況，我個人認為是還有很多地方須要努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，這畢竟是你的個人意見……"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為大家談總統選制都會去談憲法增修條文第二條第一項的規定，但是憲法第四十六條也有規定「總統、副總統之選舉，以法律定之。」但沒關係，這個題目反正才剛開始，我們也不要在這個場合占用太多的時間，我還是要問一些選務相關的。","我要問的是這段時間，除了立法院之前提核能發電的延役公投之外，還有4個由公民團體提出的公民投票，它在內容上面相對單純，其實就是不滿意立法院的修法結果，所以希望提公投複決的方式想要把它廢除，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：講到公民投票就講到連署嘛！"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：講到連署，大家就知道其實中選會是有安排所謂的電子連署，剛剛張智倫委員也有關心這個題目。"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：請問我們國家建置電子連署這一套設備，總共花了多少資源？幕僚單位要不要補充說明一下？"],["葉高級分析師志成：當初在建置罷免的時候花了四百多萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有啦！我問公投啦！"],["葉高級分析師志成：公投的話是花兩百多萬。"],["牛委員煦庭：兩百多萬？"],["葉高級分析師志成：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：花了這麼多錢，效果怎麼樣？"],["葉高級分析師志成：目前已經上線，有4案正在使用。"],["牛委員煦庭：正在使用，那使用的結果怎麼樣？你們有沒有稍微觀察一下，雖然你們當然不能干涉連署的內容，這個部分本席完全理解，但問題是既然有提供這樣的一個機制來便民等等，那這個政策執行的成效怎麼樣？"],["葉高級分析師志成：應該等到……因為我們是一個獨立機關，所以要等領銜人送件來之後才會知道送來的件數有多少，因為這只是一個連署的工具而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：只是一個工具而已？那以你們目前可以掌握的資料跟瞭解，你覺得大家有很充分地在使用這個機制嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不方便主動地去瞭解連署的狀況，但是從媒體報導，我們當然也要去關心。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["李主任委員進勇：好像進行的速度不盡理想。"],["牛委員煦庭：那原因是什麼呢？你們有沒有去做了解？其實我倒覺得這時候你們不用那麼保守啦，當然你不要去干預連署，但是你說有這樣一個機制可以去應用，我倒覺得沒有什麼不行的，即便這樣子的幾個公投投票案跟本席的政治立場不相同，但是我覺得工具就是工具，而且未來都可以參酌，既然都花錢去建置這個東西，你本來就要去檢討，它難得有在實踐的情況之下你要去了解它為什麼出現了一些問題跟障礙。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們在上線之前的準備工作裡面有一個階段就是加強宣導，加強宣導就是讓有投票權的人知道有這麼一個途徑，你可以方便去連署，希望大家多多利用，但是在上線之後已經有具體的案件在進行了，我們就不方便再去做這個工作，因為這會被誤解，會被誤讀為我們支持。"],["牛委員煦庭：好啦，本席也不是不能理解，因為新聞大概都有露出啦，就是說他們還是採取傳統的、要去設立連署站等等，這些東西到了最後其實繞了一圈好像進步有限，反正結束之後，我是希望你可以做有效的檢討跟滾動式調整，這到底好用、不好用，不好用可能要再思考怎麼樣來做優化。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們目前大概還有一個進階的作法還在研議之中，就是用行動的連署。"],["牛委員煦庭：你做好完整的幾個案例調查跟檢討之後，再去思考調整的方案，本席做一個提醒，好不好？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望中選會稍微花一點心思在選務優化和節省社會成本上面，可以嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝主委，辛苦了。"],["主席：我們感謝牛煦庭委員質詢。","我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}}