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{\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 313.701, \"end\": 313.942, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 313.942, \"end\": 314.422, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 314.422, \"end\": 314.643, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 314.643, \"end\": 314.843, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 314.843, \"end\": 315.063, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"限\", \"start\": 315.063, \"end\": 315.283, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 315.283, \"end\": 315.303, \"score\": 0.993}]}, {\"start\": 316.104, \"end\": 342.912, \"text\": \"那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 316.104, \"end\": 316.384, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"甚\", \"start\": 316.384, \"end\": 316.564, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"至\", \"start\": 316.564, \"end\": 316.724, \"score\": 0.493}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 316.724, 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{\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.115, \"end\": 500.155, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"闢\"}, {\"word\": \"謠\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 500.155, \"end\": 500.315, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 500.315, \"end\": 500.335, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 500.335, \"end\": 500.375, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 500.375, \"end\": 500.536, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 500.536, \"end\": 500.616, \"score\": 0.728}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.616, \"end\": 500.636, \"score\": 0.092}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 500.636, \"end\": 501.016, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"環\"}, {\"word\": \"境\", \"start\": 501.016, \"end\": 501.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 501.036, \"end\": 501.216, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 501.216, \"end\": 501.477, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"純\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 501.477, \"end\": 501.697, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 501.697, \"end\": 501.737, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 501.737, \"end\": 502.157, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 502.157, \"end\": 502.297, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 502.297, \"end\": 502.498, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 502.498, \"end\": 502.638, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 502.638, \"end\": 502.658, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,898 --> 00:00:05,099\n好謝謝主席我們請李主委有請李主委委員好\n\n2\n00:00:13,618 --> 00:00:33,954\n好主委好喔因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛\n\n3\n00:00:34,574 --> 00:00:51,690\n他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選\n\n4\n00:00:53,712 --> 00:01:16,352\n那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利\n\n5\n00:01:19,014 --> 00:01:48,514\n那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎\n\n6\n00:01:49,795 --> 00:02:11,054\n到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要\n\n7\n00:02:11,584 --> 00:02:38,935\n好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定\n\n8\n00:02:39,605 --> 00:03:05,016\n好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是\n\n9\n00:03:05,516 --> 00:03:21,521\n照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠\n\n10\n00:03:22,601 --> 00:03:30,229\n經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為\n\n11\n00:03:41,840 --> 00:04:00,691\n說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心\n\n12\n00:04:09,717 --> 00:04:25,194\n那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的\n\n13\n00:04:32,381 --> 00:04:54,400\n疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法\n\n14\n00:04:55,561 --> 00:05:15,303\n所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的\n\n15\n00:05:16,104 --> 00:05:42,912\n那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷\n\n16\n00:05:43,792 --> 00:06:00,397\n那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法\n\n17\n00:06:06,198 --> 00:06:31,192\n在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制\n\n18\n00:06:32,012 --> 00:07:00,773\n那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理\n\n19\n00:07:02,023 --> 00:07:27,943\n是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去\n\n20\n00:07:28,543 --> 00:07:39,117\n符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的\n\n21\n00:07:40,305 --> 00:08:04,599\n好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的\n\n22\n00:08:05,379 --> 00:08:22,658\n所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好謝謝委員好謝謝主委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2898\t5099\t好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委有請李主委委員好\n13618\t33954\t好 主委好喔 因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛\n34574\t51690\t他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選\n53712\t76352\t那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利\n79014\t108514\t那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎\n109795\t131054\t到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要\n131584\t158935\t好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定\n159605\t185016\t好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是\n185516\t201521\t照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠\n202601\t210229\t經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為\n221840\t240691\t說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心\n249717\t265194\t那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的\n272381\t294400\t疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法\n295561\t315303\t所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的\n316104\t342912\t那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷\n343792\t360397\t那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法\n366198\t391192\t在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制\n392012\t420773\t那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理\n422023\t447943\t是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去\n448543\t459117\t符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的\n460305\t484599\t好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的\n485379\t502658\t所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好 這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委有請李主委委員好\n好 主委好喔 因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛\n他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選\n那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利\n那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎\n到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要\n好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定\n好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是\n照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠\n經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為\n說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心\n那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的\n疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法\n所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的\n那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷\n那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法\n在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制\n那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理\n是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去\n符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的\n好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的\n所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好 這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.898 --> 00:05.099\n好謝謝主席我們請李主委有請李主委委員好\n\n00:13.618 --> 00:33.954\n好主委好喔因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛\n\n00:34.574 --> 00:51.690\n他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選\n\n00:53.712 --> 01:16.352\n那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利\n\n01:19.014 --> 01:48.514\n那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎\n\n01:49.795 --> 02:11.054\n到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要\n\n02:11.584 --> 02:38.935\n好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定\n\n02:39.605 --> 03:05.016\n好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是\n\n03:05.516 --> 03:21.521\n照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠\n\n03:22.601 --> 03:30.229\n經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為\n\n03:41.840 --> 04:00.691\n說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心\n\n04:09.717 --> 04:25.194\n那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的\n\n04:32.381 --> 04:54.400\n疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法\n\n04:55.561 --> 05:15.303\n所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的\n\n05:16.104 --> 05:42.912\n那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷\n\n05:43.792 --> 06:00.397\n那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法\n\n06:06.198 --> 06:31.192\n在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制\n\n06:32.012 --> 07:00.773\n那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理\n\n07:02.023 --> 07:27.943\n是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去\n\n07:28.543 --> 07:39.117\n符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的\n\n07:40.305 --> 08:04.599\n好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的\n\n08:05.379 --> 08:22.658\n所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好謝謝委員好謝謝主委\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.898,"end":5.099,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請李主委有請李主委委員好"},{"start":13.618,"end":33.954,"text":"好 主委好喔 因為前面有非常多位委員都還是在討論這個公投綁大選的問題所以我在這邊希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶那其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道說邊投票邊開票會造成非常多的選務的問題那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的台北市候選人丁守中嘛"},{"start":34.574,"end":51.69,"text":"他甚至出來說這個邊投票邊開票影響選舉的結果甚至他認為這個現象非常的荒謬那我也不知道說為什麼當時的國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選"},{"start":53.712,"end":76.352,"text":"那那時候我們也還記得說因為投票投到半夜三點半造成非常多選務人員很辛苦甚至有過勞的情況然後還有很多選民因為投不到票導致說很多縣市甚至公投的投票率並沒有增加反而下降因為他排太久了反而很多選民沒有辦法因此的投票投到票影響他們的選舉的權利"},{"start":79.014,"end":108.514,"text":"那所以其實到後來我們把選人跟選事分開就是希望說這個民主可以深化嘛讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題針對人就好好討論人所以當時的公投綁大選在這樣的脈絡之下2021有這樣的結果甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選才有了現在這樣子把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度那目前運行到現在我們主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎"},{"start":109.795,"end":131.054,"text":"到目前為止我們沒有發現任何自愛難行之處選務的部分也都是相當的順利所以沒有任何新的一種狀況需要說在這個時候我們對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討我認為沒有這個必要"},{"start":131.584,"end":158.935,"text":"好謝謝主委的說明所以在這邊也再次的證明說其實公投不需要綁大選到這樣子目前為止我們中選會照目前的制度反而能夠順利的運行對於選務人員來說也不會有太多的負擔這個是到目前為止這樣的結果人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的不會讓議題互相混淆讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定"},{"start":159.605,"end":185.016,"text":"好謝謝諸位的說明那再來要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題因為其實從台灣的公投法實行到現在已經有21個公投案了那我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的因為其實國際上的這個公民與政治權利國際公約裡面有提到說公投的主文是不應該要有誤導暗示誘惑或是反對等等的內容可是"},{"start":185.516,"end":201.521,"text":"照這個規定我認為在台灣目前的公投的主文一直都有不太順利甚至是有誤導暗示的情況就例如說其實剛通過的剛結束的這個核三研議的公投他的主文是說您是否同意第三核能發電廠"},{"start":202.601,"end":210.229,"text":"經主管機關同意卻安全無疑之後繼續運轉可是我們一直質疑的是五月核關法就已經修法了如果核電廠要提出重啟的研議的申請就是照法律來進行相關的申請這個甚至是藍白修過的法那現在為什麼還要因為"},{"start":221.84,"end":240.691,"text":"說因為因此而可以提出這個公投呢那這個公投結束之後就有學者分析說對於贊成方來說他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力可是當時候我們看到國民黨他們拍的口號是說支持核三研議換回電價穩定用電更安心"},{"start":249.717,"end":265.194,"text":"那這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑說這個真的有在科學的基礎上進行他成本相關的運算嗎包括說他投入的工程啊等等的成本是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益所以我們當時會覺得說這個樣的內容主文的內容真有沒有誤導或是暗示或是誘惑等等的"},{"start":272.381,"end":294.4,"text":"疑慮呢那另外一個更明顯的例子其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投提案人裡面是寫到說您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女是否同意民法的婚姻應該限定在一男一女的結合等等的可是在這樣的主文之後他們後來的宣傳都是寫說這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法"},{"start":295.561,"end":315.303,"text":"所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯到是說中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定的內容的規範或是針對說如果他們這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用或者是有不實的論證我們的政府的權限是有限的"},{"start":316.104,"end":342.912,"text":"那甚至是其實在國際上有一些例如說瑞士的公投主文還有他們裡面提到的公投的手冊都有非常嚴格的規範就是有強調說絕對不能有誤導性也不能有誘導性那甚至是聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證那如果甚至是如果他的資訊相關是不實的到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷"},{"start":343.792,"end":360.397,"text":"那這個是在國際上的例子所以我一直很想知道說在我們台灣這樣的情況下很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性很多有誘導性甚至我認為他的論證都已經是不符合事實的那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊謝謝委員的指教目前我們的這個公投法"},{"start":366.198,"end":391.192,"text":"在第9條的部分是有相關的規定第9條第三項說第一項的主文應該要簡明清楚要客觀中立理由書的產名以及其立場要跟主文一致這是第三項第四項規定說主文跟理由書的文字用詞字數的計算語法及其他相關的事項之辦法有主管機關定制"},{"start":392.012,"end":420.773,"text":"那剛剛委員所提到的尤其是關於誤導的部分其實在我們現行的這個法律規定跟我們的這個辦法裡面是可以得到相當的法源的依據我們可以來做審查的實務上我們也會要求如果發現有不當的情形會要求提案人必須要來補正那補正通過了沒問題補正不通過的話我們就不予受理"},{"start":422.023,"end":447.943,"text":"是啦那当然最后这个和三跟还有像当年的这个反同婚的公投的主文你们都还是让他可以进行到这个公投的程序吗那我们问的是说像后面他们在宣传的内容其实很多都跟主文已经是完全是背离事实甚至是不实的资讯甚至有非常多是误导性的用恐吓的等等那这些你们有办法让他去"},{"start":448.543,"end":459.117,"text":"符合这个原本的主文进行相关的讨论吗如果是我们职务上所明知已经是这个伪造的不实的讯息的话我们是可以要求删除的"},{"start":460.305,"end":484.599,"text":"好那這個就要拜託了因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論當然是要依據議題本身他必須要符合事實然後必須要盡量的讓民眾是得知完整的資訊而不是現在謠言滿天飛大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下你要他進行這個公投的選擇最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的"},{"start":485.379,"end":502.658,"text":"所以就是我最擔心的所以單純的環境是非常重要的如果跟選舉如果加在一起的話那整個議題就失焦了是好 這個就是再拜託主委可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好然後盡量的讓這個選舉的環境是更單純越好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":458,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時18分）謝謝主席，請李主委。"],["主席：有請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：主委好。因為前面有非常多位委員，都還是在討論公投綁大選的問題，所以我希望再次的幫大家複習一下過去的記憶。其實從2018年的經驗就可以知道邊投票、邊開票會造成非常多選務的問題，那時候最大的受害者就是國民黨的臺北市候選人丁守中，他甚至出來說邊投票、邊開票影響選舉的結果，並認為這個現象非常的荒謬。但我也不知道為什麼，當時國民黨候選人明明就已經是因為公投綁大選造成的受害者，結果這麼多的國民黨委員現在又在倡議公投綁大選。那時候我們也還記得因為投票投到半夜3點半，造成非常多選務人員很辛苦，甚至有過勞的情況，然後還有很多選民因為投不到票，導致很多縣市公投的投票率並沒有增加，反而下降。因為排太久了，很多選民因此沒有辦法投到票而影響他們選舉的權利。其實後來我們把選人跟選事分開，就是希望說民主可以深化，讓大家可以針對議題就好好討論議題；針對人就好好討論人，所以當時的公投綁大選，在這樣的脈絡之下，2021有這樣的結果，甚至是大家不同意公投綁大選，才有了現在把公投跟大選分開這樣的制度。目前運行到現在，主委認為這個制度是穩定的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：到目前為止，我們沒有發現任何窒礙難行之處，選務的部分也都是相當的順利，所以沒有任何新的狀況需要在這個時候，對於公投跟大選脫鉤再去做檢討，我認為沒有這個必要。"],["黃委員捷：好。謝謝主委的說明，所以在這邊也再次的證明其實公投不需要綁大選，到目前為止，我們中選會照現行的制度，反而能夠順利的運行，對於選務人員來說，也不會有太多的負擔，這個是目前為止的結果。"],["李主任委員進勇：對於人民公民權的行使其實是非常正面的，不會讓議題互相混淆，讓選民都可以很理性的來做決定。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝主委的說明。再來，要跟您請教一個比較制度性的問題。其實從臺灣的公投法施行到現在已經有21個公投案了，我覺得制度上是有一些可以進一步討論的，因為國際上的公民與政治權利公約裡面有提到，公投的主文不應該有誤導、暗示、誘惑或是反對等等的內容，可是照這個規定，我認為目前在臺灣公投的主文，一直都有不太順利，甚至是有誤導、暗示的情況。","例如剛剛結束的核三延役的公投，它的主文是「您是否同意第三核能發電廠經主管機關同意確認無安全疑慮後，繼續運轉？」但我們一直質疑的是5月核管法就已經修法了，如果核電廠要提出重啟、延役的申請，就是照法律進行相關的申請，這個甚至是藍白修過的法，現在為什麼還要因此而可以提出這個公投呢？這個公投結束之後，就有學者分析對於贊成方來說，他們的目的是要透過政治壓力來施壓，並且利用資訊落差來扭曲核三公投的法律意義，把它扭曲為跟法律案一樣的法律約束力來產生政治的壓力。可是當時候我們看到國民黨，他們拍的口號是「支持核三延役，換回電價穩定，用電更安心」，這樣的內容其實很多人就質疑真的有在科學基礎上進行成本相關的運算嗎？包括說它投入的工程等等的成本，是不是遠高於核電帶來的效益？所以我們當時會覺得，這個主文的內容有沒有誤導、暗示或是誘惑等等的疑慮呢？另外一個更明顯的例子，其實就是2018年的反同婚的公投。提案人寫到您是否同意婚姻應該要一男一女，主文是「你是否同意民法婚姻規定應限定在一男一女的結合？」可是在這樣的主文之後，他們後來的宣傳都是寫這個公投是要另外成立伴侶法。","所以我覺得從這兩個案例可以凸顯，中選會沒有辦法針對主文有一定內容的規範，或是如果這個主文已經很明顯是誘導性或是有誤導的作用，或者是有不實的論證，我們政府的權限是有限的。甚至在國際上有一些案例，例如瑞士的公投主文，還有他們提到公投的手冊，都有非常嚴格的規範，有強調絕對不能有誤導性，也不能有誘導性，甚至聯邦政府有權修改或拒絕這些不實的論證，如果它相關資訊是不實的，到時候公投的結果可能被法院來撤銷，這個是在國際上的例子。所以我一直很想知道，我們臺灣在這樣的情況下，很明顯很多都已經是有誤導性，很多有誘導性，甚至我認為它的論證都已經是不符合事實的，那我們中選會是不是都無能處理啊？"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員的指教，目前我們的公投法在第九條的部分是有相關的規定，第九條第三項說第一項的主文應簡明、清楚、客觀中立；理由書之闡明以及其立場應與主文一致。第四項規定說主文與理由書之文字用詞、字數計算、語法及其他相關事項之辦法，由主管機關定之。剛剛委員所提到的，尤其是關於誤導的部分，其實在我們現行的法律規定跟我們的辦法裡面，是可以得到相當的法源依據，我們可以來做審查的，實務上我們也會要求，如果發現有不當的情形，會要求提案人必須要來補正。補正通過了，沒問題，補正不通過的話，我們就不予受理。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！當然最後這個核三，還有像當年反同婚的公投主文，你們都還是讓它可以進行到公投的程序，那我們問的是說，像後面他們在宣傳的內容，其實很多都跟主文已經完全是背離事實，甚至是不實的資訊，甚至有非常多是誤導性的，用恐嚇的等等，那這一些你們有辦法讓它去符合原本的主文，進行相關的討論嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是我們職務上所明知已經是偽造不實訊息的話，我們是可以要求刪除的。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個就要拜託了，因為我們希望接下來針對公投的討論，當然是要依據議題本身，它必須要符合事實，然後必須要儘量讓民眾得知完整的資訊，而不是現在謠言滿天飛，大家在這麼多錯誤的資訊下，你要他進行公投的選擇，最後做出來的結果很可能與現實是不相符的，這是我最擔心的。"],["李主任委員進勇：所以單純的環境是非常重要的，如果跟選舉扯在一起的時候，那整個議題就失焦了。"],["黃委員捷：是，這個再拜託主委，可以進行這些不實言論的闢謠也好，然後儘量讓選舉的環境是更單純越好。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝主委。"],["主席（王委員美惠）：謝謝黃捷委員。","我們請高金素梅委員質詢。","等一下在李柏毅委員質詢後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-2","speakers":["王美惠","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","黃捷","高金素梅","李柏毅","黃建賓","陳冠廷","徐欣瑩","洪孟楷","林德福","吳琪銘","丁學忠"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央選舉委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況（含上會期臨時提案辦理情形），並備質詢","agenda_id":"1147901_00010"}}}