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\"部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 443.882, \"end\": 444.663, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 444.663, \"end\": 444.803, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 444.803, \"end\": 445.043, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 445.043, \"end\": 445.223, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"浪\", \"start\": 445.223, \"end\": 445.943, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 445.943, \"end\": 446.083, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 446.083, \"end\": 446.203, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 446.203, \"end\": 446.304, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 446.304, \"end\": 446.404, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 446.404, \"end\": 446.564, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"得\", 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00:00:37,010\n部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到\n\n3\n00:00:44,232 --> 00:00:46,854\n因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂\n\n4\n00:01:00,583 --> 00:01:03,927\n因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討\n\n5\n00:01:20,666 --> 00:01:39,955\n我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏\n\n6\n00:01:46,778 --> 00:02:01,745\n首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容\n\n7\n00:02:06,227 --> 00:02:33,889\n比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊\n\n8\n00:02:35,390 --> 00:02:37,831\n訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格\n\n9\n00:02:58,755 --> 00:03:09,197\n我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池\n\n10\n00:03:26,521 --> 00:03:33,686\n這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來\n\n11\n00:03:45,854 --> 00:03:48,718\n就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體\n\n12\n00:04:02,917 --> 00:04:21,375\n這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎\n\n13\n00:04:25,157 --> 00:04:34,963\n所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎\n\n14\n00:04:53,427 --> 00:05:20,074\n部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些\n\n15\n00:05:21,584 --> 00:05:45,489\n我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下\n\n16\n00:05:46,849 --> 00:06:08,055\n我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的\n\n17\n00:06:15,777 --> 00:06:37,063\n而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好謝謝委員的意思是\n\n18\n00:06:42,725 --> 00:06:55,777\n部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的\n\n19\n00:06:59,485 --> 00:07:18,979\n就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方\n\n20\n00:07:23,882 --> 00:07:49,138\n部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好\n\n21\n00:07:53,541 --> 00:08:11,197\n但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK好謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6130\t7073\t謝謝主席 麻煩請國防部長請顧部長\n21285\t37010\t部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到\n44232\t46854\t因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂\n60583\t63927\t因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討\n80666\t99955\t我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏\n106778\t121745\t首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容\n126227\t153889\t比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊\n155390\t157831\t訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格\n178755\t189197\t我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池\n206521\t213686\t這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來\n225854\t228718\t就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體\n242917\t261375\t這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億 將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年 三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎\n265157\t274963\t所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎\n293427\t320074\t部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些\n321584\t345489\t我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下\n346849\t368055\t我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的\n375777\t397063\t而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好 謝謝委員的意思是\n402725\t415777\t部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的\n419485\t438979\t就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方\n443882\t469138\t部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好\n473541\t491197\t但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK 好 謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好 麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在\n","txt":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國防部長請顧部長\n部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到\n因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂\n因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討\n我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏\n首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容\n比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊\n訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格\n我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池\n這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來\n就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體\n這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億 將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年 三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎\n所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎\n部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些\n我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下\n我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的\n而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好 謝謝委員的意思是\n部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的\n就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方\n部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好\n但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK 好 謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好 麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.130 --> 00:07.073\n謝謝主席麻煩請國防部長請顧部長\n\n00:21.285 --> 00:37.010\n部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到\n\n00:44.232 --> 00:46.854\n因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂\n\n01:00.583 --> 01:03.927\n因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討\n\n01:20.666 --> 01:39.955\n我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏\n\n01:46.778 --> 02:01.745\n首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容\n\n02:06.227 --> 02:33.889\n比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊\n\n02:35.390 --> 02:37.831\n訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格\n\n02:58.755 --> 03:09.197\n我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池\n\n03:26.521 --> 03:33.686\n這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來\n\n03:45.854 --> 03:48.718\n就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體\n\n04:02.917 --> 04:21.375\n這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎\n\n04:25.157 --> 04:34.963\n所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎\n\n04:53.427 --> 05:20.074\n部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些\n\n05:21.584 --> 05:45.489\n我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下\n\n05:46.849 --> 06:08.055\n我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的\n\n06:15.777 --> 06:37.063\n而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好謝謝委員的意思是\n\n06:42.725 --> 06:55.777\n部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的\n\n06:59.485 --> 07:18.979\n就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方\n\n07:23.882 --> 07:49.138\n部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好\n\n07:53.541 --> 08:11.197\n但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK好謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.13,"end":7.073,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請國防部長請顧部長"},{"start":21.285,"end":37.01,"text":"部長好部長這一次我們針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算的部分我們在行政院提出的這個國安任性特別預算裡面總共5700億那我們國防的部分就佔了1132億可是我們看到"},{"start":44.232,"end":46.854,"text":"因為首先因為這個時間很倉促我們在很短的時間框出這麼大的一筆預算可是我們在送進來的這些相關的資料裡面發現很多的問題一方面它非常的混亂"},{"start":60.583,"end":63.927,"text":"因為包括主計單位跟一些需求單位其實他們送出來的數量數字其實大概都搭不上來所以我想這個裡面還存在很多問題而且這個編列的裡面我想提出幾個來請部長大概就這些部分其實還可以做一些檢討"},{"start":80.666,"end":99.955,"text":"我們應該要把錢花在刀口上尤其我們國防預算難得如果說我們有這樣的經費應該要用在對的地方那特別預算是針對有特殊的狀況或需求或者政務的需要特別編的而且甚至裡面有很多是舉債的那如果說我們隨便亂用我覺得這個會對不起我們很多納稅人的這個我們的民脂民膏"},{"start":106.778,"end":121.745,"text":"首先我們提幾個來看國防部含所屬的特別預算案裡面在兩年內你要執行大概400個案子國防部他核心的工作在這一次的韌性預算裡面他主要是強化韌性一直強調韌性可是我們看到預算的內容"},{"start":126.227,"end":153.889,"text":"比如說你對於彈藥庫還有裝備的庫房作戰中心等等如果你要做這些的整建所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固防震防爆應該是做這些可是我們看到的是你是換掉舊的設備買新的大型的LED的螢幕高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備甚至會議室有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達五萬塊"},{"start":155.39,"end":157.831,"text":"訂製一個會議桌就要250萬兩個會議室這樣的會議桌要500萬我們覺得非常不可思議那像在囤儲一些我們的戰備用水我們現在買的水一瓶公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢可是我們在這一次要買的水特別有不同的規格"},{"start":178.755,"end":189.197,"text":"我們買到一瓶120塊等於是我們現在買的12倍以上所以你編了8億將近8億的錢我們看到這些林林總總我現在講的這個裡面還有很多我們提出這幾個還有很多的單位他把錢拿來鋪馬路甚至有造橋蓋鋼棚還有防水設施換門窗電力設施換新整修游泳池"},{"start":206.521,"end":213.686,"text":"這個都是很多靶場也是近三年內我們公務預算才整修完成結果你現在又納入特別預算還是重複的同樣的靶場所以我們不知道說為什麼這些預算可以這樣編可以這樣用那這些部分還有一個因為時間的關係我先把它提出來"},{"start":225.854,"end":228.718,"text":"就是在這個資通作業環境跟設備的部分總共編了673億可是這673億裡面有很多他做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備跟大量的民用資通訊設備跟軟體"},{"start":242.917,"end":261.375,"text":"這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做而且現在也還在做可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億 將近700億都在做這些而且很多的錢還是拿來付那個授權費他的授權費三年 三年後咧再編好幾百億嗎"},{"start":265.157,"end":274.963,"text":"所以就這幾個非常不合理的地方我們好不容易如果國防預算有增加第一我們希望可以增加我們所有國軍的福利當我們需要給國軍加急或加薪的時候希望可以落實第二每一個每一分錢我們也希望他用在對的地方像剛剛我提到的你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池這是應該放在特別預算的嗎"},{"start":293.427,"end":320.074,"text":"部長要不要簡單回應說明泳池我看我的了解是因為一物一的部分我們要做相關的泳訓部長那是他們的說明他每個泳池都拿出來做整建而且有部長如果你要做我們不反對他應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算我剛剛講的這些其實他在公務預算有很多都可以做你不是用特別預算拿來做這些"},{"start":321.584,"end":345.489,"text":"我想跟委員報告整個大方向來看是整件褲子設置訓場的環境這些都是為了我們一方面是大量的這些武器的跟彈藥囤儲的需求那一方面為了後備戰力的改革跟恢復一年級義務役的實戰化訓練所需要相關細節有關委員指摘的部分我後製室要不要說明一下"},{"start":346.849,"end":368.055,"text":"我想沒關係部長我們在體驗上面有提出來剛剛你說像一年起的義務役一年起的義務役不是現在突然有的你這個預算是現在編的我們現在說的你包括剛剛我說的整建或者其他的支出我們認為如果你有需要你也可以編可是你應該編在公務預算你特別預算應該用在什麼樣的地方剛剛蓋馬路什麼的防射防水這個都不是應該做的"},{"start":375.777,"end":397.063,"text":"而且有很多特規的東西或者像把我們所有軍人還有我們去軍醫院去看病的這些個資如果他的雲端資料必須放在境外應該讓國人很清楚的知道這部分我們在討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討好不好好 謝謝委員的意思是"},{"start":402.725,"end":415.777,"text":"部長你那個是不是就是會後之後再請那個對我想委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回覆的話那我們就在討論的時候再說如果主席可以讓你回覆的話當然也可以我想整個的"},{"start":419.485,"end":438.979,"text":"就國土防衛能量的部分假設我們用一般的作業維持費你要來看的話那你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關在庫存的設施在靶場我們的費用是多少那我們有辦法在有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內來集中大量的來集中資源快速來籌建相關的庫存設備跟訓場環境這是我們現在提出來認為急迫的地方"},{"start":443.882,"end":469.138,"text":"部長如果不浪費他就可以做得到我剛剛說的包括拔廠設施包括拔廠設施我再提醒部長一次包括拔廠設施我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的這一次又放到這個特別預算裡面了回去可以看一下請他們詳細報告我想我們沒有重複也沒有浪費委員的資料我們可以詳細來做做的部長我們請你看一下這個資料很清楚的 謝謝針對馬委員的疑問請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細做答覆好不好"},{"start":473.541,"end":491.197,"text":"但是我還是要說明這個委員的旨在並不確實好不好OK 好 謝謝這個資料你們自己看清楚好 麥委員謝謝你也謝謝部長接下來請陳昭之委員陳昭之委員陳昭之委員不在"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1619,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（13時54分）謝謝主席，麻煩請國防部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，這一次針對因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算的部分，行政院提出的國安韌性特別預算總共有5,700億，其中國防的部分就占了1,132億，可是我們看到因為時間很倉促，你們在很短的時間內框出這麼大的一筆預算，可是我們在送進來的這些相關資料裡面發現很多問題，一方面它非常混亂，包括主計單位跟一些需求單位，其實他們送出來的數量、數字大概都搭不上來，所以我想這裡面還存在很多問題。針對編列的部分，我想提出幾個問題請部長就這些部分再做一些檢討，我們應該要把錢花在刀口上，尤其我們國防預算很難得，如果有這樣的經費，應該要用在對的地方。特別預算是針對特殊的狀況或需求，或者是基於政務的需要特別編的，甚至裡面有很多是舉債的，如果我們隨便亂用，我覺得會對不起很多納稅人的民脂民膏。","首先我們提幾個部分來看，針對國防部含所屬的特別預算案，在兩年內你要執行大概四百個案子，關於國防部核心的工作，在這一次的韌性預算裡面，他主要是強化韌性，一直強調韌性，可是我們看到預算的內容，比如對於彈藥庫、裝備的庫房、作戰中心等等，如果你要做這些的整建，所謂的韌性至少應該是要加固、防震、防爆，應該是做這些才對，可是我們看到的是，你換掉舊的設備，買新的大型LED螢幕、高倍數的投影機還有視聽設備，甚至有兩個會議室長官的座椅每一張高達5萬塊，訂製一個會議桌就要250萬，兩個會議室這樣子的會議桌要花500萬，我們覺得非常不可思議。像屯儲戰備用水，我們現在買的水公開採購一瓶大概8塊錢，可是這一次要買的水有特別不同的規格，竟然買到一瓶120塊，等於是我們現在買的12倍以上，所以你編列將近8億的錢。我們看到這些林林總總，我現在講的這個裡面還有很多，還有很多單位把錢拿來鋪馬路，甚至有造橋、蓋鋼桶，還有防水設施、換門窗、電力設施換新、整修游泳池，很多靶場也是近三年內以公務預算才整修完成，結果你現在又納入特別預算，還是重複同樣的靶場，我們不知道為什麼這些預算可以這樣編、可以這樣用？因為時間的關係，我先把它提出來，還有一個就是在資通作業環境及設備的部分總共編了673億，可是在這673億裡面，有很多它做的大概是衛星寬頻通訊設備以及大量的民用資通訊設備及軟體，這個我們每年都花高額的公務預算在做，而且現在也還在做，可是我們現在用特別預算又編了好幾百億，將近700億都在做這些，而且很多的錢還是拿來付授權費，它的授權費三年，請問三年後呢？還要再編好幾百億嗎？","就這幾個非常不合理的地方，好不容易國防預算有增加，第一，我們希望可以增加所有國軍的福利，當我們需要給國軍加給或加薪的時候，希望可以落實。第二，每一分錢我們都希望用在對的地方，像剛剛我提到的，你鋪馬路或者防水或者蓋游泳池，這是應該放在特別預算的嗎？部長要不要簡單回應說明？"],["顧部長立雄：關於泳池，我的了解是因為義務役的部分要做相關的泳訓，這也是訓場環境的一部分。"],["馬委員文君：部長，那是他們的說明，他們把每個游泳池都拿出來整建，如果你要做，我們不反對，它應該放在公務預算而不是特別預算，我剛剛講的這些其實在公務預算有很多都可以做，不是拿特別預算來做這些。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，整個大方向來看是整建庫存設施和訓場的環境，這些都是為了我們一方面大量的武器和彈藥屯儲的需求，一方面為了後備戰力的改革和恢復一年期義務役的實戰化訓練所需要，相關細節有關委員指摘的部分，後次室要不要說明一下？"],["馬委員文君：沒關係，部長，我們在提案上面也有提出來，剛剛你說一年期的義務役，一年期義務役不是現在突然有的，你這個預算是現在編的，我們現在說的，包括剛剛我說的整建或其他的支出，我們認為如果你有需要也可以編，可是你應該編在公務預算，特別預算應該用在什麼地方？蓋馬路、房舍防水這些都不是應該做的，而且有很多特規的東西，或者像我們所有軍人去軍醫院看病的這些個資，如果它的雲端資料必須放在境外，應該讓國人很清楚的知道，這個部分在我們討論提案的時候再來做一些比較深入的探討，好不好？部長還要說明嗎？"],["主席：部長，會後請相關單位跟委員說明。"],["顧部長立雄：委員沒有辦法讓我有時間回復的話，我們就在討論提案的時候再來說明。"],["馬委員文君：如果主席可以讓你回復的話，當然也可以。"],["主席：就到委員的辦公室說明。"],["顧部長立雄：就國土防衛能量的部分，假設我們用一般的作業維持費來看的話，你看看每年的年度預算的作業維持費有關庫存的設施、靶場的費用是多少，我們有沒有辦法在短短的時間之內集中資源快速來籌建相關庫存設備和訓場環境，這是我們現在提出認為急迫的地方。"],["馬委員文君：部長，如果不浪費，它就可以做得到，我剛剛說的包括靶場設施，甚至我再提醒部長一次，包括靶場設施，我們近三年已經用公務預算整建完成的，這次又放到特別預算裡面，回去可以看一下，請他們詳細報告。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們沒有重複，也沒有浪費，對委員的指教，我們可以詳細跟委員說明。"],["主席：部長，我想馬委員……"],["馬委員文君：部長，請你看一下，這個資料很清楚，謝謝。"],["主席：針對馬委員的疑問，請部長在整個預算討論的時候再詳細答復，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是，但是我還是要說明，委員的指摘並不確實。"],["馬委員文君：這個資料你們自己看清楚。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員，也謝謝部長。","接下來請陳昭姿委員，陳昭姿委員，陳昭姿委員不在。","接下來請沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":410,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-4-20,15,35,19,22,26-1","speakers":["林思銘","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","陳亭妃","賴士葆","郭國文","蘇巧慧","賴惠員","柯志恩","萬美玲","葉元之","鄭正鈐","黃秀芳","黃珊珊","林宜瑾","李坤城","鍾佳濱","李彥秀","張宏陸","賴瑞隆","羅明才","郭昱晴","羅美玲","謝龍介","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張智倫","徐欣瑩","李柏毅","邱志偉","王美惠","蔡易餘","牛煦庭","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","張雅琳","林月琴","盧縣一","馬文君","沈伯洋","張啓楷","吳沛憶","范雲","王正旭","林楚茵"],"page_start":71,"meetingDate":["2025-10-08"],"gazette_id":"1148101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148101_00003","1148101_00004","1148101_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期財政、內政、外交及國防、經濟、教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查行政院函請審議「中央政府因應國際情勢強化經濟社會及民生國安韌性特別預算案」","agenda_id":"1148101_00002"}}}