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{\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 73.093, \"end\": 73.233, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 73.233, \"end\": 73.454, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 73.454, \"end\": 73.814, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"扣\", \"start\": 73.814, \"end\": 73.994, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"令\", \"start\": 73.994, \"end\": 74.535, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 74.535, \"end\": 74.675, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 74.675, \"end\": 74.955, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 74.955, \"end\": 75.316, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 75.316, \"end\": 75.456, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"控\", \"start\": 75.456, \"end\": 75.876, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"巨\", \"start\": 75.876, \"end\": 76.016, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 76.016, \"end\": 76.377, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": 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\"都\", \"start\": 81.182, \"end\": 81.582, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"齊\"}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 81.582, \"end\": 81.802, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 81.802, \"end\": 81.822, \"score\": 0.901}]}, {\"start\": 82.563, \"end\": 100.849, \"text\": \"部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 82.563, \"end\": 82.823, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 82.823, \"end\": 82.963, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 82.963, \"end\": 83.063, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 83.063, \"end\": 83.223, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 83.223, \"end\": 83.323, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 83.323, \"end\": 83.583, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 83.583, \"end\": 83.723, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 83.723, \"end\": 83.863, \"score\": 0.858}, 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\"巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"巨\", \"start\": 102.979, \"end\": 103.019, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 103.019, \"end\": 103.32, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"械\", \"start\": 103.32, \"end\": 103.56, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 103.56, \"end\": 103.72, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.72, \"end\": 103.861, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 103.861, \"end\": 104.001, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 104.001, \"end\": 104.241, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 104.241, \"end\": 104.421, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 104.421, \"end\": 104.742, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 104.742, \"end\": 104.922, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 104.922, \"end\": 105.283, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 105.283, \"end\": 105.663, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"齁\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 105.663, \"end\": 106.044, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 106.044, \"end\": 106.785, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 106.785, \"end\": 107.406, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 107.406, \"end\": 109.309, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"6\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 109.309, \"end\": 110.61, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 110.61, \"end\": 110.911, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 110.911, \"end\": 111.091, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 111.091, \"end\": 111.311, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 111.311, \"end\": 111.512, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 111.512, \"end\": 112.013, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": 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\"其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 212.31, \"end\": 214.671, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 214.671, \"end\": 216.732, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 216.732, \"end\": 216.812, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 216.812, \"end\": 216.952, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 216.952, \"end\": 217.192, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 217.192, \"end\": 217.352, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"楚\", \"start\": 217.352, \"end\": 217.492, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 217.492, \"end\": 217.752, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 217.752, \"end\": 217.972, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 217.972, \"end\": 218.533, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": 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{\"start\": 271.152, \"end\": 293.651, \"text\": \"那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 271.152, \"end\": 271.332, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 271.332, \"end\": 271.673, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 271.673, \"end\": 271.793, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 271.793, \"end\": 272.013, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 272.013, \"end\": 272.133, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 272.133, \"end\": 272.493, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"巨\", \"start\": 272.493, \"end\": 272.673, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 272.673, \"end\": 273.034, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 273.034, \"end\": 273.194, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 273.194, 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652.258, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 652.258, \"end\": 652.418, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 652.418, \"end\": 652.438, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"昭\", \"start\": 657.189, \"end\": 657.41, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"智\", \"start\": 657.41, \"end\": 657.53, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 657.53, \"end\": 657.65, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 657.65, \"end\": 657.67, \"score\": 0.001}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,970 --> 00:00:06,259\n謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:14,982 --> 00:00:33,983\n我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令\n\n3\n00:00:34,944 --> 00:00:44,117\n所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題\n\n4\n00:00:46,414 --> 00:01:04,344\n當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個\n\n5\n00:01:06,066 --> 00:01:21,822\n產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了\n\n6\n00:01:22,563 --> 00:01:40,849\n部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎\n\n7\n00:01:42,979 --> 00:01:56,399\n巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查\n\n8\n00:01:57,961 --> 00:02:20,577\n那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況\n\n9\n00:02:21,580 --> 00:02:38,383\n我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚\n\n10\n00:02:39,404 --> 00:03:02,997\n那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重\n\n11\n00:03:03,997 --> 00:03:30,571\n扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢\n\n12\n00:03:32,310 --> 00:03:59,841\n其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的\n\n13\n00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:30,172\n部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬\n\n14\n00:04:31,152 --> 00:04:53,651\n那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈\n\n15\n00:04:57,054 --> 00:05:12,756\n也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障\n\n16\n00:05:13,957 --> 00:05:40,462\n勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個\n\n17\n00:05:42,011 --> 00:06:07,180\n家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的\n\n18\n00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:21,447\n部長您這個想法我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那\n\n19\n00:06:23,683 --> 00:06:44,949\n我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面\n\n20\n00:06:46,189 --> 00:06:56,586\n其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分\n\n21\n00:06:57,293 --> 00:07:18,059\n如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理\n\n22\n00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:39,957\n那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎\n\n23\n00:07:47,065 --> 00:08:13,607\n就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的\n\n24\n00:08:14,147 --> 00:08:37,563\n因為現在除了半導體之外其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖嚇死人就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許就是9月更嚴重越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送\n\n25\n00:08:38,965 --> 00:08:52,200\n所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛雇主身上不是現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個\n\n26\n00:08:54,688 --> 00:09:09,562\n減慢休息的話向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是\n\n27\n00:09:10,563 --> 00:09:25,313\n就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎\n\n28\n00:09:26,433 --> 00:09:49,214\n跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是\n\n29\n00:09:49,674 --> 00:10:09,929\n所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽\n\n30\n00:10:10,950 --> 00:10:26,291\n其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛\n\n31\n00:10:26,691 --> 00:10:52,438\n對我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長\n\n32\n00:10:57,189 --> 00:10:57,670\n謝謝陳昭智委員發言\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3970\t6259\t謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長\n14982\t33983\t我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令\n34944\t44117\t所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題\n46414\t64344\t當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個\n66066\t81822\t產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了\n82563\t100849\t部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎\n102979\t116399\t巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查\n117961\t140577\t那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況\n141580\t158383\t我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚\n159404\t182997\t那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重\n183997\t210571\t扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢\n212310\t239841\t其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的\n241840\t270172\t部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬\n271152\t293651\t那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈\n297054\t312756\t也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障\n313957\t340462\t勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個\n342011\t367180\t家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的\n368300\t381447\t部長您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那\n383683\t404949\t我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面\n406189\t416586\t其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分\n417293\t438059\t如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理\n438399\t459957\t那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎\n467065\t493607\t就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的\n494147\t517563\t因為現在除了半導體之外 其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後 無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖 嚇死人 就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許 就是9月更嚴重 越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工 那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送\n518965\t532200\t所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是 現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個\n534688\t549562\t減慢休息的話 向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是\n550563\t565313\t就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎\n566433\t589214\t跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是\n589674\t609929\t所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽\n610950\t626291\t其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛\n626691\t652438\t對 我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長\n657189\t657670\t謝謝陳昭智委員發言\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長\n我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令\n所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題\n當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個\n產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了\n部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎\n巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查\n那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況\n我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚\n那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重\n扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢\n其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的\n部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬\n那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈\n也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障\n勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個\n家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的\n部長您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那\n我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面\n其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分\n如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理\n那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎\n就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的\n因為現在除了半導體之外 其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後 無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖 嚇死人 就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許 就是9月更嚴重 越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工 那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送\n所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是 現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個\n減慢休息的話 向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是\n就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎\n跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是\n所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽\n其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛\n對 我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長\n謝謝陳昭智委員發言\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.970 --> 00:06.259\n謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長\n\n00:14.982 --> 00:33.983\n我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令\n\n00:34.944 --> 00:44.117\n所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題\n\n00:46.414 --> 01:04.344\n當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個\n\n01:06.066 --> 01:21.822\n產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了\n\n01:22.563 --> 01:40.849\n部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎\n\n01:42.979 --> 01:56.399\n巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查\n\n01:57.961 --> 02:20.577\n那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況\n\n02:21.580 --> 02:38.383\n我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚\n\n02:39.404 --> 03:02.997\n那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重\n\n03:03.997 --> 03:30.571\n扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢\n\n03:32.310 --> 03:59.841\n其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的\n\n04:01.840 --> 04:30.172\n部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬\n\n04:31.152 --> 04:53.651\n那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈\n\n04:57.054 --> 05:12.756\n也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障\n\n05:13.957 --> 05:40.462\n勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個\n\n05:42.011 --> 06:07.180\n家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的\n\n06:08.300 --> 06:21.447\n部長您這個想法我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那\n\n06:23.683 --> 06:44.949\n我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面\n\n06:46.189 --> 06:56.586\n其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分\n\n06:57.293 --> 07:18.059\n如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理\n\n07:18.399 --> 07:39.957\n那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎\n\n07:47.065 --> 08:13.607\n就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的\n\n08:14.147 --> 08:37.563\n因為現在除了半導體之外其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖嚇死人就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許就是9月更嚴重越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送\n\n08:38.965 --> 08:52.200\n所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛雇主身上不是現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個\n\n08:54.688 --> 09:09.562\n減慢休息的話向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是\n\n09:10.563 --> 09:25.313\n就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎\n\n09:26.433 --> 09:49.214\n跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是\n\n09:49.674 --> 10:09.929\n所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽\n\n10:10.950 --> 10:26.291\n其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛\n\n10:26.691 --> 10:52.438\n對我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長\n\n10:57.189 --> 10:57.670\n謝謝陳昭智委員發言\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.97,"end":6.259,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長有請洪部長"},{"start":14.982,"end":33.983,"text":"我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪但是20天後也就是9月25號我們看到美國指控巨大他是有強迫勞動而且發出了戰扣令"},{"start":34.944,"end":44.117,"text":"所以我想請問部長9月5號您跟院長去這個巨大基建主要是談哪些議題有沒有提到移工的有沒有討論到移工的問題"},{"start":46.414,"end":64.344,"text":"當時我想其實我們是在這個要協助企業來因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的這個脈絡下面那訪問巨大公司那也包括現場有很多的自行車業所以其實當時的這個座談我們當然是談到整體的這個"},{"start":66.066,"end":81.822,"text":"產業因應的做法應該就是為了關稅的應對但是沒有想到就是說美國就發出了這樣的一個指控跟張扣令那美國海關指控這個巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動五大罪狀幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了"},{"start":82.563,"end":100.849,"text":"部長您大概知道這些事吧濫用弱勢處境而惡劣的工作與生活條件債務束縛扣留工資以及超時工作那我知道勞動部跟台中市勞工局有去會刊那請問會刊的結果如何美國這些指控是正確的嗎"},{"start":102.979,"end":116.399,"text":"巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎跟委員說明齁其實在應該是9月26號那我們本部有跟台灣市勞工局一起進場但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查"},{"start":117.961,"end":140.577,"text":"那我們進場的目的主要其實是希望也當然了解一些狀況那也希望來協助巨大公司然後來提出一個這個更好的改善的方案那希望透過這個改善的方案來盡快解除這個包括美方的這個戰扣令的狀況"},{"start":141.58,"end":158.383,"text":"我是覺得有點遺憾因為這個巨大過去他生產的那個捷安特自行車我們覺得是國際品牌啊而且大家都會覺得不會否認他是台灣出版可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面那卻是一個就強迫勞動的一個負面新聞啊讓人家非常的震驚"},{"start":159.404,"end":182.997,"text":"那我有去勞動部官網上的這個違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋老實說那個巨大過去被這個有違反勞動法令的記錄其實不多那查到了只有四筆是那個違反職安法相關的記錄那盧秀燕市長也說到近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些就都合格的意思但是美國指控的很嚴重"},{"start":183.997,"end":210.571,"text":"扣留工資啊超時工作他都沒有看到在我們自己的官網上有這些記錄或是這個去查核的時候那為什麼部長我必須請教為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們跟我們的差這麼大那請問美國是如何對巨大來進行調查的到底是有人去移工去控訴的去訴求的還是說他美國有派人實際到我們現場來看呢"},{"start":212.31,"end":239.841,"text":"其實現在這個其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢那在不管是我們的這個供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌那也包括我們很重要的這個貿易夥伴的國家其實的確這段時間是越來越重視強化活動的問題那相關的認定其實也越來越強化我們是有看到這個趨勢的"},{"start":241.84,"end":270.172,"text":"部長因為其實我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁但是這個指控其實是蠻大的但是巨大被美國發出這樣的這個戰扣令是危機可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化成這個轉機例如台灣目前我必須這樣形容獨步全球的一個移工仲介費他長期你還沒有上任的時候他就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞犬"},{"start":271.152,"end":293.651,"text":"那我們現在已經知道說巨大現在跟另外一家自行車的大廠叫做美利達他們都實施這個零付款政策就是說移工本身他不需要再付這個仲介費或服務費而是由雇主來支付的那部長你認為這個做法是正面的嗎會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎就他現在採取的步驟是這樣確實現在國際上的供應鏈"},{"start":297.054,"end":312.756,"text":"也包括一些品牌那越來越多來實施所謂的零付費的政策那這也是我們剛才說其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化所以當然我覺得往一個更有利於保障"},{"start":313.957,"end":340.462,"text":"勞工的方向我們也都希望盡量來協助跟輔導企業往一個這個對勞工權益保障更好的方向部長這個零付費其實現在是僱主在承擔啦不是真的零付費就是仲介費還是存在的就是相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔但是產業界我覺得產業界的僱主或許比較有這個財力跟能力去幫這個移工去付這筆費用但是那個家庭的這個"},{"start":342.011,"end":367.18,"text":"家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力所以其實長期以來從許部長在的時候我就希望他大家都往職聘的方向往政府對政府因為其他國家也這樣做了然後就是不要有仲介費這個部分的我們稱為剝削因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了兩個數字的萬甚至超過十萬的一個債務所以對他來說就是說我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢慢慢不見的"},{"start":368.3,"end":381.447,"text":"部長您這個想法 我跟文說明其實我想部裡面我們接下來也會針對職聘的制度做一個很大程度的檢討那我們也會提出一個強化職聘的計畫那"},{"start":383.683,"end":404.949,"text":"我們這段時間在整體的檢討我們的移工政策裡面也包括一個很重要的部分就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能這是很重要的事情那職聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分所以其實我們這一次這個也在明年的計畫包括明年的預算書裡面"},{"start":406.189,"end":416.586,"text":"其實我們接下來會有一個這個延攬中心那在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能其實就是希望能夠強化植品的部分"},{"start":417.293,"end":438.059,"text":"如果往這個方向走我們都會支持因為我們那種競爭力不夠現在又巴西蘭某個程度的開放你也多次說過說招募移工有困難那就是從源頭去解決就制度面去解決那為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高一定是要在制度源頭去處理"},{"start":438.399,"end":459.957,"text":"那我覺得這件事是很重要我想我們一定會越來越重視職聘然後也會在職聘這上面投注更多的資源尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能給做出來就是我覺得這部分這一直是在我們這段時間在檢討移工政策裡面一個非常非常重要的目標我們都擺在這件事情上面而且我們會具體的作為往這個方向努力那部長我想請教你這個關稅衝擊的部分你認為現在你的評論你覺得現在的景氣好嗎"},{"start":467.065,"end":493.607,"text":"就大家都說股市不斷的創高嘛創新高那景氣很好你認同嗎當然我們現在集一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的可是的確比方說裡面我們有些傳統產業那現在可能過去也因為這個中國的貿易傾銷那這段時間也可能因為關稅或者匯率的影響的確現在是比較辛苦的所以產業之間的差別是有的"},{"start":494.147,"end":517.563,"text":"因為現在除了半導體之外 其他的這個產業大概都慘兮兮因為4月川普公布了這個對等關稅之後 無薪假人數不斷攀升你看我這個圖 嚇死人 就是往上攀升那他們甚至允許 就是9月更嚴重 越來越嚴重那很多傳統產業員工 那僱主也是讓他們允許他們默許他們去兼職跑外送"},{"start":518.965,"end":532.2,"text":"所以部長我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在那個嘛 雇主身上不是 現在其實基本上如果企業有通報這個"},{"start":534.688,"end":549.562,"text":"減慢休息的話 向地方政府通報的話其實現在是勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的公安訂措施部長您談到通報我們現在就是有被陳情有些公司他沒有通報或是不配合或是刻意隱瞞當然他們有他們的困難但是"},{"start":550.563,"end":565.313,"text":"就是這個事情確實發生了就是說這個部分不曉得勞動部面對這個即使被檢班也拿不到就是說沒有把事實反映出來那你要怎麼處理就是有關被放無薪假勞動如果被引力的話你們有辦法去了解調查嗎"},{"start":566.433,"end":589.214,"text":"跟委員說明的確現在因為我們其實相關的補助措施你還是要知道他的名單嘛就是你要名單有資料你才有辦法給予補助所以現在的確我們希望企業通報所以我們現在一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報有些企業可能過去會擔心說他通報的話他是不是名單會被公佈因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報是"},{"start":589.674,"end":609.929,"text":"所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情啊那就是我想說你是不是想個辦法有什麼方法去了解因為通報是被動嘛就是說你告訴我那我就相信你都會告訴我這樣子我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業因為我剛才說其實有些企業他會擔心說他如果通報他會不會明日公佈那會不會更影響他企業的聲譽"},{"start":610.95,"end":626.291,"text":"其實會有這樣的狀況那我們跟他比方說上個禮拜我們其實就到中部跟企業我自己去跟他座談我跟大家說我們講很清楚我們絕對你通報的話我們絕對不會公佈個別企業的名字因為對等關稅是大家都受害者嘛"},{"start":626.691,"end":652.438,"text":"對 我們絕對不會公佈企業的名字因為現在大家是要共度這個難關所以但是還是很希望企業如果有減半休業的狀況他就來通報因為這個當然會影響他後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等這些權益可是其實如果他通報的話勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的勞工也可以對謝謝部長部長我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點希望您沒有違樣多多保重謝謝部長"},{"start":657.189,"end":657.67,"text":"謝謝陳昭智委員發言"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":52,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時9分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早安。部長，我有注意到9月5號的時候您跟卓院長有一起到巨大機械去參訪，但是20天後，也就是9月25號，我們看到美國指控巨大有強迫勞動，而且發出了暫扣令。我想請問部長，9月5號您跟院長去巨大機械主要是談哪些議題？有沒有討論到移工的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是在要協助企業因應關稅跟國際情勢衝擊的脈絡下去訪問巨大公司，現場也包括很多的自行車業，所以當時的座談我們當然是談到整體產業因應的作法。"],["陳委員昭姿：應該就是為了關稅的應對，但是沒有想到美國就發出了這樣的指控跟暫扣令，美國海關指控巨大機械對移工的強迫勞動有五大罪狀，幾乎所有罪狀都齊全了。部長，您大概知道這些事吧？包含濫用弱勢處境、惡劣的工作與生活條件、債務束縛、扣留工資及超時工作，我知道勞動部跟臺中市勞工局有去會勘，請問會勘的結果如何？美國的這些指控是正確的嗎？巨大機械真的做了這些事嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，應該是9月26號時本部有跟臺中市勞工局一起進場，但是我們進場主要並不是去做勞動檢查，我們進場的目的主要是希望……也當然了解一些狀況，希望協助巨大公司提出一個更好的改善方案，也希望透過改善方案來儘快解除美方的暫扣令狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我是覺得有點遺憾，因為巨大過去生產的捷安特自行車，我們覺得是國際品牌，而且大家都不否認它是臺灣之光，可是很可惜這一次上了國際版面，卻是強迫勞動的負面新聞，讓人家非常的震驚！我有去勞動部官網上違反勞動法令的查詢系統搜尋，老實說巨大過去有違反勞動法令的紀錄其實不多，查到的只有4筆是違反職安法相關的紀錄。盧秀燕市長也說近一年的勞動檢查並沒有美國所指控的那些，就是都合格的意思，但是美國指控的很嚴重──扣留工資、超時工作，但都沒有在我們自己的官網上看到有這些紀錄，或是去查核的時候……部長，我必須請教，為什麼美國的勞檢結果跟我們的差這麼大？請問美國是如何對巨大進行調查的？到底是移工去控訴的，還是美國有派人實際到現場去看呢？"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們很清楚看到一個國際的趨勢，不管是我們的供應鏈或者是一些國際的品牌，也包括我們很重要的貿易夥伴國家，的確這段時間是越來越重視強迫勞動的問題，相關的認定其實也越來越強化，我們是有看到這個趨勢的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我也沒看到官方有出來澄清或反駁，但因為這個指控其實是滿大的，雖然巨大被美國發出這樣的暫扣令是危機，可是我覺得我們還是可以有機會把危機化為轉機，例如臺灣目前我必須這樣形容──獨步全球的移工仲介費，你還沒有上任的時候，它就一直被國際勞工組織還有美國國務院一直點名說是危害勞權，我們現在已經知道巨大跟另外一家自行車的大廠美利達，都實施零付費政策，就是移工本身不需要再付仲介費或服務費，而是由雇主來支付的。部長，你認為這個作法是正面的嗎？會鼓勵更多企業這樣做嗎？就是它現在採取的步驟是這樣的。"],["洪部長申翰：確實，現在國際上的供應鏈，也包括一些品牌，越來越多實施所謂零付費的政策，這也是我們剛才說，其實現在國際上面對於強迫勞動的認定是越來越重視跟強化，所以我覺得要往一個更有利於保障勞工的方向，我們也都希望儘量來協助跟輔導企業，往一個對勞工權益保障更好的方向。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個零付費其實現在是雇主在承擔，不是真的零付費，就是仲介費還是存在的。"],["洪部長申翰：是，就是移工相關的仲介費不要讓移工來承擔。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我覺得產業界的雇主或許比較有財力跟能力去幫移工付這筆費用，但是家事移工的雇主就不見得有這個能力，所以其實長期以來，從許部長在的時候，我就希望大家都往直聘、往政府對政府的方向，因為其他國家也這樣做了，就是不要有仲介費這個部分，我們稱為剝削，因為幾乎很多移工一進來就背了債務，有的甚至超過10萬元，所以對他來說，我們的競爭力是這樣慢慢不見的，部長，您的想法呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，其實部裡面接下來也會針對直聘制度做很大程度的檢討，我們也會提出一個強化直聘的計畫，我們這段時間在整體檢討移工政策，裡面也包括一個很重要的部分，就是我們希望要能夠強化政府在移工聘僱過程的角色跟功能，這是很重要的事情。直聘當然是這裡面其中一個部分，所以其實我們這次在明年的計畫，包括明年的預算書裡面，我們接下來會有一個延攬中心，在這個延攬中心裡面其中一個很重要的功能，就是希望能夠強化直聘的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，如果往這個方向走，我們都會支持，因為我們競爭力不夠，現在巴氏量表又有某個程度的開放，你也多次說過招募移工有困難，那就從源頭、從制度面去解決，為什麼我們引不進外籍勞工？其他國家或許困難度沒這麼高，一定是要在制度、源頭去處理，我覺得這件事是很重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們一定會越來越重視直聘，也會在直聘上面投注更多的資源，尤其是要把政府的角色跟功能做出來。我覺得這部分一直是我們在這段時間檢討移工政策一個非常非常重要的目標，我們的努力都擺在這件事情上面，而且我們會有具體的作為。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，希望部長往這個方向努力。","部長，我想請教你有關關稅衝擊的部分，你覺得現在的景氣好嗎？大家都說股市不斷地創新高，景氣很好，你認同嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，其實現在我們一些總體經濟的指標看起來是很不錯的，可是比方說我們有些傳統產業，可能過去因為中國的貿易傾銷，也可能因為這段時間關稅或者匯率的影響，的確現在是比較辛苦的，所以產業之間的差別是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你說的是正確的，因為現在除了半導體之外，其他的產業大概都慘兮兮，因為4月川普公布了對等關稅之後，無薪假人數不斷攀升，你看我這個圖，嚇死人了！就是往上攀升，9月甚至更嚴重，越來越嚴重！很多傳統產業雇主也是默許員工去兼職跑外送。部長，我知道你們推出很多就業安定的措施，但是這些補助的主要申請權還是落在雇主身上嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，現在基本上如果企業有向地方政府通報減班休息的話，其實勞工朋友也可以來申請我們的僱用安定措施。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您談到通報，我們現在就是有被陳情，有些公司沒有通報，或是不配合，或是刻意隱瞞，當然他們有他們的困難，但是這個事情確實發生了，不曉得勞動部在面對即使被減班也拿不到補助，就是沒有把事實反映出來的這個部分，你要怎麼處理？就是有關被放無薪假的勞工如果被隱匿的話，你們有辦法去了解或調查嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為其實相關的補助措施還是要知道它的名單、資料，才有辦法給予補助，我們的確希望企業要通報，所以我們現在也一直鼓勵企業應該要出來通報，有些企業可能過去會擔心它通報的話，是不是名單會被公布。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為有勞工陳情沒有被通報，所以他們都會跟在野黨的立委陳情，你是不是想個辦法，看有沒有什麼方法去了解？因為通報是被動的，就是你告訴我，那我就相信你都會告訴我。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實現在也是主動到很多的產業……因為我剛才說，其實有些企業會擔心它如果通報，名字會不會被公布，會不會更影響它企業的聲譽。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，我了解他們的顧慮，但是……"],["洪部長申翰：其實會有這樣的狀況，比方說上個禮拜，我們就到中部跟企業座談，我們講得很清楚，我跟大家說：「你通報的話，我們絕對不會公布個別企業的名字」。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為對等關稅大家都是受害者嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們絕對不會公布企業的名字，因為現在大家是要共渡這個難關，但是還是很希望企業如果有減班休息的狀況就來通報，因為這個會影響後續勞工能不能申請到相關的薪資補貼等等權益，其實如果它通報的話，勞工是可以自己來跟我們申請的。"],["陳委員昭姿：勞工也可以？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長！部長，我有覺得您今天的精神或是體力好像差一點，希望你身體沒有微恙，多多保重！"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}