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\"text\": \"所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好 我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 96.304, \"end\": 96.404, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 96.404, \"end\": 96.504, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 96.504, \"end\": 97.525, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 97.525, \"end\": 97.765, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 97.765, \"end\": 97.965, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 97.965, \"end\": 98.825, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 98.825, \"end\": 98.965, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 98.965, \"end\": 99.025, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.025, \"end\": 99.305, \"score\": 0.745}, {\"word\": \"釐\"}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 99.305, \"end\": 99.465, 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那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁 有看過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 115.212, \"end\": 115.352, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 115.352, \"end\": 115.493, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 115.493, \"end\": 115.653, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"麻\", \"start\": 115.653, \"end\": 115.993, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"煩\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 115.993, \"end\": 116.113, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 116.113, \"end\": 116.673, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"併\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 116.673, \"end\": 116.994, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 116.994, \"end\": 117.134, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 117.134, \"end\": 117.214, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"份\", \"start\": 117.214, \"end\": 117.554, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 117.554, \"end\": 117.814, \"score\": 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當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 218.177, \"end\": 218.197, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 218.197, \"end\": 218.357, \"score\": 0.68}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 218.357, \"end\": 218.717, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 218.717, \"end\": 219.298, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 219.298, \"end\": 219.598, \"score\": 0.773}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 219.598, \"end\": 219.778, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 219.778, \"end\": 219.958, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 219.958, \"end\": 220.039, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 220.039, \"end\": 220.139, \"score\": 0.585}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 220.139, \"end\": 220.259, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 220.259, 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\"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 626.276, \"end\": 626.336, \"score\": 0.532}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 626.336, \"end\": 626.516, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 626.516, \"end\": 626.596, \"score\": 0.65}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 626.596, \"end\": 626.796, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 626.796, \"end\": 626.896, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 626.896, \"end\": 626.976, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 626.976, \"end\": 627.216, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 627.216, \"end\": 627.236, \"score\": 0.723}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,819 --> 00:00:05,642\n謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法\n\n2\n00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:51,231\n那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說\n\n3\n00:00:52,452 --> 00:01:07,946\n看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的\n\n4\n00:01:10,327 --> 00:01:35,884\n他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案\n\n5\n00:01:36,304 --> 00:01:54,692\n所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供\n\n6\n00:01:55,212 --> 00:02:15,209\n對那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁有看過\n\n7\n00:02:19,761 --> 00:02:42,535\n有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個\n\n8\n00:02:44,076 --> 00:03:10,352\n情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用\n\n9\n00:03:11,593 --> 00:03:36,851\n更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生\n\n10\n00:03:38,177 --> 00:03:59,173\n我跟委員報告當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯\n\n11\n00:04:01,335 --> 00:04:29,203\n為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變\n\n12\n00:04:30,616 --> 00:04:52,598\n我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的\n\n13\n00:04:53,399 --> 00:04:55,942\n因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛\n\n14\n00:05:09,798 --> 00:05:12,339\n就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了\n\n15\n00:05:28,068 --> 00:05:43,015\n這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣\n\n16\n00:05:51,659 --> 00:06:04,708\n應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則\n\n17\n00:06:19,617 --> 00:06:47,682\n那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多\n\n18\n00:06:48,717 --> 00:06:59,113\n就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的\n\n19\n00:07:01,017 --> 00:07:26,964\n不會不會這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置\n\n20\n00:07:27,744 --> 00:07:46,429\n這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題\n\n21\n00:07:57,031 --> 00:08:09,709\n出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題\n\n22\n00:08:12,346 --> 00:08:33,806\n但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛\n\n23\n00:08:34,406 --> 00:08:50,862\n那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%\n\n24\n00:08:52,623 --> 00:09:21,446\n这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法\n\n25\n00:09:21,886 --> 00:09:47,779\n未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼\n\n26\n00:09:48,359 --> 00:10:15,211\n是啦不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短\n\n27\n00:10:16,071 --> 00:10:27,236\n每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1819\t5642\t謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法\n27476\t51231\t那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說\n52452\t67946\t看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的\n70327\t95884\t他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案\n96304\t114692\t所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好 我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供\n115212\t135209\t對 那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好 那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁 有看過\n139761\t162535\t有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個\n164076\t190352\t情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用\n191593\t216851\t更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生\n218177\t239173\t我跟委員報告 當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯\n241335\t269203\t為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變\n270616\t292598\t我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的\n293399\t295942\t因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛\n309798\t312339\t就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了\n328068\t343015\t這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣\n351659\t364708\t應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則\n379617\t407682\t那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多\n408717\t419113\t就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的\n421017\t446964\t不會不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置\n447744\t466429\t這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題\n477031\t489709\t出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題\n492346\t513806\t但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛\n514406\t530862\t那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%\n532623\t561446\t这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法\n561886\t587779\t未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼\n588359\t615211\t是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短\n616071\t627236\t每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法\n那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說\n看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的\n他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案\n所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好 我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供\n對 那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好 那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁 有看過\n有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個\n情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用\n更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生\n我跟委員報告 當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯\n為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變\n我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的\n因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛\n就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了\n這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣\n應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則\n那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多\n就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的\n不會不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置\n這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題\n出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題\n但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛\n那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%\n这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法\n未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼\n是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短\n每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.819 --> 00:05.642\n謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法\n\n00:27.476 --> 00:51.231\n那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說\n\n00:52.452 --> 01:07.946\n看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的\n\n01:10.327 --> 01:35.884\n他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案\n\n01:36.304 --> 01:54.692\n所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供\n\n01:55.212 --> 02:15.209\n對那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁有看過\n\n02:19.761 --> 02:42.535\n有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個\n\n02:44.076 --> 03:10.352\n情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用\n\n03:11.593 --> 03:36.851\n更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生\n\n03:38.177 --> 03:59.173\n我跟委員報告當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯\n\n04:01.335 --> 04:29.203\n為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變\n\n04:30.616 --> 04:52.598\n我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的\n\n04:53.399 --> 04:55.942\n因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛\n\n05:09.798 --> 05:12.339\n就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了\n\n05:28.068 --> 05:43.015\n這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣\n\n05:51.659 --> 06:04.708\n應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則\n\n06:19.617 --> 06:47.682\n那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多\n\n06:48.717 --> 06:59.113\n就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的\n\n07:01.017 --> 07:26.964\n不會不會這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置\n\n07:27.744 --> 07:46.429\n這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題\n\n07:57.031 --> 08:09.709\n出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題\n\n08:12.346 --> 08:33.806\n但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛\n\n08:34.406 --> 08:50.862\n那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%\n\n08:52.623 --> 09:21.446\n这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法\n\n09:21.886 --> 09:47.779\n未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼\n\n09:48.359 --> 10:15.211\n是啦不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短\n\n10:16.071 --> 10:27.236\n每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.819,"end":5.642,"text":"謝謝主席我在這邊先有請秘書長還有市部長委員長是秘書長還有部長早那剛剛因為吳宗憲委員他有特別提到有關於政務人員行為基準法他有提出相關的草案那本期剛剛有說我也會很快的競速就會提出政務人員法"},{"start":27.476,"end":51.231,"text":"那麼因為大家都認為說其實有關於政務人員的行為規範以及他的相關的一些權益的部分應該要盡速的法制化畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣所以呢這邊的話我也希望考試院能夠盡速的提出相關的草案畢竟就是在民國應該是100年的時候你們那時候就已經曾經提出過政務人員法草案雖然說"},{"start":52.452,"end":67.946,"text":"看起來現在對於到底政務人員法的主管機關權責機關這個部分有所質疑可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼所以這個地方是不是可以請考試院也可以提出一份延期報告有關於就是政務人員的"},{"start":70.327,"end":95.884,"text":"他的這個主管權責應該是由哪一個機關哪一個院來負責因為上次跟你們在討論的過程當中部長 施部長有一些不同的看法認為說可能是在行政院但是我想因為這個是早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法那再加上現在政務人員的退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案"},{"start":96.304,"end":114.692,"text":"所以我認為說這個部分在權責上面的釐清是很重要的是不是可以請秘書長這裡一個月內可以提出一份報告好 我們來做一個分析給委員參考然後也可以參考一下其他國家的一些狀況有關於政務人員法其他國家的處理方式我們一定提供"},{"start":115.212,"end":135.209,"text":"對 那就是麻煩就整併在同一份報告裡面好 那接下來呢本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題這次的議案首先請教秘書長跟部長請問你們有沒有注意到在立法院預算中心115年度的預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題有齁 有看過"},{"start":139.761,"end":162.535,"text":"有看到這個議題嗎那在立法院預算中心他最新報告有指出2021年到2025年的6月這些年當中那公務人員因為降調低官等或者是同官等裡面他調任低職等卻仍然續員奉給會產生一個高資低用的現象而這樣子的一個"},{"start":164.076,"end":190.352,"text":"情況公務員的人數高達9000多人那麼包括了降調第一官等職務中央地方政府合計有1000多人同官等內調任第一職等的職務中央地方政府合計將近8000人那麼這樣的一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用"},{"start":191.593,"end":216.851,"text":"更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的這樣一個情況那麼工作調配也不公平甚至有些是投機的情形所以我想請問考試院針對這種將近有萬人近萬個公務員他們竟然出現這種高薪低用的現象你們有進行過相關的研析評估嗎有瞭解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生"},{"start":218.177,"end":239.173,"text":"我跟委員報告 當然預算中心有提到這個議題那也跟委員報告這方面我也是專業所以他談了一些議題可能只看到現象沒有把原因講得很清楚然後他確實點到一個問題我們可以這樣講所謂高資利用這個字眼當然定義本來就不是很清楚他實際講的就是說有人降掉關等啦對 降掉關等或是降掉值等沒錯"},{"start":241.335,"end":269.203,"text":"為什麼有人這樣因為都是自願性的自願性每一個人有個人的規劃譬如這樣講好了有人可能要返鄉可能要離開他現在一個很多地方但是對方就是沒有適當的值等他就只好去那有些人各式各樣的理由那我應該這樣講我們現在他裡面點到一個重點是確實是全區部呢也已經在就有討論的事情就是說我們現在如果降掉值等他薪水會不會改變"},{"start":270.616,"end":292.598,"text":"我們現在的制度是本縫不改變專業家級也不改變如果從主管降調成非主管他主管家級沒有可是這個事情確實是一個議題如果他降調職等理論上他的職等的職者已經不一樣了本縫是因為法律明文規定我們不能夠去調整他可是專業家級應不應該跟著調整這是一個議題值得去討論的"},{"start":293.399,"end":295.942,"text":"因為本身也認為說這個議題其實很重要我認為全序部這裡要提出一個檢討的報告或是一個延續報告不見得是檢討去分析這樣的一個現象因為坦白說啦這個也可能會影響到整個行政機關效能的問題嘛"},{"start":309.798,"end":312.339,"text":"就這一點來講說不定有些高職等的官員他就升等了但是他想要去做更輕鬆更沒有壓力更沒有負擔的工作我覺得這個會造成一個工作上的不平等我認為說法院預算中心他們今天提出了"},{"start":328.068,"end":343.015,"text":"這樣的一個報告我認為全市部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內也可以提出相關的書面報告可以嗎這對這個問題然後分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼我覺得這可以看出來一些端倪到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣"},{"start":351.659,"end":364.708,"text":"應該這樣講我們不會去問他調動的原因所以我只能講說我們大概對這個議題的看法是怎麼跟委員提交一個報告我們後續要怎麼處理我覺得基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問題調查啦讓大家了解一下這樣的一個情況好 那麼接下來呢我還有第二個問題就是說在考試院跟權需部的業務報告裡面都有提到這個修正各機關職稱機關等職等員額配置的原準則"},{"start":379.617,"end":407.682,"text":"那在这个修正准则里面看起来就是会放宽各个官等的配置比率会提高中高阶人力就比如说八九值等的这样的一个人力的原额那么但是呢就要调降基层的原额的最低标准比如说未来的五值等可能会调降只录取5%那兼任六七值等的话会调降5%到15%那么这个问题就是说会不会造成以后科长比科员多"},{"start":408.717,"end":419.113,"text":"就是你的這個八九指等的員額增加但是呢你這個基層的員額基層的公務員的員額你卻又縮緊他的"},{"start":421.017,"end":446.964,"text":"不會不會 這個完全不會因為我們所謂調高職等因為科長有多少職務本身都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的所以我們只是說他現在可能有一些職等比較低而且主管性的職等比較低我們把它調到8到9或者是調到7到8那至於比較低階的我們是屬於譬如說土木工程土木工程是高度比較專業技術性我們就認為他不需要那麼多委任職等的配置"},{"start":447.744,"end":466.429,"text":"這個有利於機關吸引到這個人才所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降並不是全部都往下降所以這是一個通盤性的一個討論好 那看起來就是說可能你們在很多的這個方面沒有想得很清楚譬如說你到底是在哪一個職系哪一個職等裡面你們可能會把它調高那麼因為如果說我們這樣子來看你的報告的話會認為說好像未來基層可能會出現基層人力不足的問題"},{"start":477.031,"end":489.709,"text":"出現短缺那麼卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力的問題可能我們文字沒有表達很好但是我們有這個過程都跟行政機關有充分的討論然後做一個通盤性的檢討不會出現委員講的一些議題"},{"start":492.346,"end":513.806,"text":"但是我们随时还是money个案的一个状况然后做必要的调整好那么最后一个问题就是说这个最近有一份报道指出就台湾的员工过劳指数高达36%那么这不仅是亚洲之冠而且远远高于北美洲欧洲等等这些国家那么所以呢台湾俨然就是一个过劳之岛"},{"start":514.406,"end":530.862,"text":"那麼事實上在整個的報告顯示裡面在整個報告裡面他顯示出就是在亞太地區國家的職場的倦怠率但是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的可是台灣的工作員工的疲勞度卻是增加還是高達36%"},{"start":532.623,"end":561.446,"text":"这个部分要显现台湾的工作环境的确有过劳的情况那么因此最近又有民众在公共政策网络平台上面发起联署提案推动四日工作制这个议题其实在两年之前其实有民众有提过那就是每周以后上四天班可以放假三天那么这个议题在今年其实又已经提出来了所以不知道群讯部还有考试院对于这样子的一个提案有没有什么看法"},{"start":561.886,"end":587.779,"text":"未來有沒有可能會朝向更縮短工時的方向去做我跟委員報告整個國家的一個工時其實是一個應該是由國家整體的政策來考量並不應該說好像是政府部門的做一套民間部門做一套所以這是一個很複雜的一個議題我覺得有任何一個提案我想政府部門都應該去可以納入這個大家討論看看說這樣的優缺點到底是什麼"},{"start":588.359,"end":615.211,"text":"是啦 不过就是说公务部门也可以带头做起毕竟我们有这么多广大公务员我们也很希望我们的公务人员他在身心各方面都能够得到最好的调试那才能够在回到工作岗位上面的时候可以好好的工作所以也是可以去思考就算是我们不能够很迅速的去推动周休四日但是有没有可能把现在的工作时数每周上班八天的缩短"},{"start":616.071,"end":627.236,"text":"每天各縮短一天一小時對不對一小時類似週休2.5天這個方向可以去思考那也請考試院跟詮釋部可以就這個議案然後去想一想好不好好謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":633,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時2分）謝謝主席，在這邊先請秘書長還有施部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長、部長早。剛剛吳宗憲委員有特別提到，對於政務人員行為基準法，他有提出相關的草案，本席剛剛也說我也會儘速提出政務人員法，因為大家都認為有關於政務人員的行為規範及相關權益應該要儘速的法制化，畢竟政務人員跟公務人員的性質不一樣，所以我也希望考試院能夠儘速提出相關的草案。畢竟在民國100年的時候你們就曾經提出過政務人員法草案，雖然看起來現在對於政務人員法的主管機關、權責機關有所質疑，可是我不知道考試院的立場是什麼，所以是不是可以請考試院也提出一份研析報告？有關於政務人員的主管權責應該由哪一個機關、哪一個院來負責？因為上次你們在討論的過程當中，施部長有一些不同的看法，認為可能是在行政院，但是我想因為早期考試院本來就有提出政務人員法，再加上現在政務人員退職條例等等也都是由考試院來主管提法案，所以我認為在權責上面的釐清是很重要的，是不是可以請秘書長在一個月內提出一份報告？"],["劉秘書長建忻：好，我們來做一個分析給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後也可以參考一下其他國家的狀況，有關於政務人員法。"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，其他國家的處理方式我們一併提供。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，那就麻煩整併在同一份報告裡面。","接下來本席要進入到一個比較實質的問題，首先請教秘書長跟部長，請問你們有沒有注意到立法院預算中心對於115年度預算評估報告當中所提到的公務員高資低用的問題？"],["施部長能傑：有，有看過。"],["翁委員曉玲：立法院預算中心在最新的報告中指出2021年到2025年6月這期間，公務人員因為降調低官等，或者同官等裡面調任低職等卻仍然敍原俸給，會產生一個高資低用的現象，而有這樣情況的公務員人數高達九千多人，包括降調低一官等職務，中央、地方政府合計有一千多人，同官等內調任低職等職務，中央及地方政府合計將近八千人，這樣一個現象坦白說真的是不利於政府整體人力資源規劃和運用，更可能會引發所謂的同工不同酬的情況，工作調配也不公平，甚至有些投機的情形。所以我想請問考試院針對近萬的公務員出現這種高薪低用的現象，有進行過相關的研析評估嗎？有了解為什麼會有這樣的情形發生嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，預算中心有提到這個議題，這方面我也是專業，所以他們談的一些議題可能只看到現象，沒有把原因講得很清楚，不過它確實點到一個問題，我們這樣講，所謂「高資低用」這個字眼定義本來就不是很清楚，它實際講的就是有人降調官等、降調職等，這才是重點。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒錯。"],["施部長能傑：為什麼有人這樣？因為都是自願性的，每一個人都有個人的規劃，這樣講好了，譬如有人可能要返鄉，可能要離開現職，但是對方就是沒有適當的職等，所以他就只好去，還有些人有各式各樣的理由。我應該這樣講，報告裡面點到一個重點，確實是銓敘部已經在討論的事情，就是現在如果降調職等，他的薪水會不會改變。"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上都會改變，依照制度……"],["施部長能傑：我們現在的制度是本俸不改變，專業加給也不改變，如果從主管降調成非主管，他沒有主管加給，可是這個事情確實是一個議題，如果他降調職等，理論上他的職責已經不一樣了，那個本俸因為法律明文規定，我們不能夠去調整，可是專業加給應不應該跟著調整？這是一個值得去討論的議題。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，本席也認為這個議題其實很重要，我認為銓敘部這裡要提出一個檢討報告或研析報告，不見得是檢討，去分析這樣一個現象。"],["施部長能傑：這其實我們已經在……沒問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：坦白說這也可能會影響到整個行政機關的效能。"],["施部長能傑：就這一點來講，我覺得我們會做……"],["翁委員曉玲：同時，說不定有些高職等的官員已經升等了，但是他想要去做更輕鬆、更沒有壓力、更沒有負擔的工作，我覺得這會造成工作上的不平等，立法院預算中心今天提出了這樣的一個報告，我認為銓敘部應該也要對於這樣的現象進行相關的研析，所以是不是可以請你們在一個月內提出相關的書面報告？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，我跟委員報告，在……"],["翁委員曉玲：去分析一下大家調動的原因是什麼，我覺得這可以看出一些端倪，到底是因為離家遠的問題還是怎麼樣。"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，我們不會去問他調動的原因，所以我只能說我們大概對這個議題的看法是什麼，跟委員提交一個報告，那後續要怎麼處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：基本上以後還是可以做一個類似問卷調查的調查。"],["施部長能傑：對、對、對，還是可以。"],["翁委員曉玲：讓大家了解一下這樣的情況。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我還有第二個問題，考試院跟銓敘部在業務報告裡面都有提到修正各機關職稱、官等、職等、員額配置的準則，從這個修正準則裡面看起來，就是會放寬各個官等的配置比率，會提高中高階人力，比如八、九職等的人力員額，但是卻又調降基層員額的最低標準，譬如未來的五職等可能會調降，只錄取5%，薦任六、七職等會調降5%到15%，這樣會不會造成以後科長比科員多？因為八、九職等的員額增加，但是基層公務員的員額卻又縮減了。"],["施部長能傑：這個完全不會，我們所謂調高職等，因為科長有多少職務都是在一個法規命令裡面規範的，我們只是說現在可能有一些職等比較低，而且是主管的職等比較低，我們把他調到八到九或者是七到八；至於比較低階的，譬如土木工程，土木工程具有高度專業技術性，我們就認為它不需要那麼多委任職等的配置，這個有利於機關吸引人才，所以我們就把它本來委任配置的比例往下降，並不是全部都往下降，這是一個通盤性的討論。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，看起來就是可能你們在很多方面沒有想得很清楚，譬如到底是在哪一個職系、哪個職等裡面，你們可能會把它調高，我們這樣來看你的報告的話，就會認為好像未來可能會出現基層人力不足的問題。"],["施部長能傑：不會。"],["翁委員曉玲：出現短缺，卻又大幅的提高中高階的人力。"],["施部長能傑：可能我們的文字沒有表達得很好，但是這個過程我們都跟行政機關有充分的討論，然後做一個通盤性的檢討，不會出現委員講的一些議題。當然我們隨時還是要monitor個案的狀況，然後做必要的調整。"],["翁委員曉玲：最後一個問題，最近有一份報導指出臺灣的員工過勞指數高達36%，這不僅是亞洲之冠而且遠遠高於北美洲、歐洲等等國家，所以臺灣儼然就是一個過勞之島，事實上整個報告顯示出在亞太地區國家職場的倦怠率也就是所謂的疲勞度是下滑的，可是臺灣員工的疲勞度卻是增加的，還是高達36%，顯示臺灣的工作環境的確有過勞的情況，因此最近又有民眾在公共政策網路平台上面發起連署，提案推動四日工作制，這個議題其實在兩年之前有民眾提過，就是每週上4天班可以放假3天，這個議題在今年已經又提出來了，不知道銓敘部還有考試院對於這樣子的提案有沒有什麼看法？未來有沒有可能朝向更縮短工時的方向去做？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，整個國家的工時其實應該是由國家整體的政策來考量，並不應該說好像是政府部門做一套、民間部門做一套，所以這是一個很複雜的議題。我覺得有任何一個提案，我想政府部門都應該可以納入……大家討論看看這樣的優缺點到底是什麼，我只能這樣講。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啦！不過公務部門也可以帶頭做起，畢竟我們有這麼多廣大的公務員，我們也很希望公務人員在身心各方面都能夠得到最好的調適，回到工作崗位上的時候才可以好好工作，所以也是可以思考。就算我們不能夠很迅速地推動週休4日，但是有沒有可能把現在的工作時數、每天上班8小時縮短，每天各縮短1小時，類似週休2.5天，這個方向可以思考，也請考試院跟銓敘部可以就這個議案去想一想，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲）：接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}}