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0.008}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}]}, {\"start\": 94.799, \"end\": 110.108, \"text\": \"所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 94.799, \"end\": 94.999, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 94.999, \"end\": 96.92, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 96.92, \"end\": 96.96, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 96.96, \"end\": 97.0, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 97.0, \"end\": 98.061, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 98.061, \"end\": 98.321, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 98.321, \"end\": 98.481, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 98.481, \"end\": 98.641, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 98.641, \"end\": 98.701, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 98.701, \"end\": 98.861, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 98.861, 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\"機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 289.344, \"end\": 289.684, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 289.684, \"end\": 290.165, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 290.165, \"end\": 290.385, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 290.385, \"end\": 291.265, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"與\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 291.265, \"end\": 291.425, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 291.425, \"end\": 291.606, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 291.606, \"end\": 291.786, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 291.786, \"end\": 291.926, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 291.926, \"end\": 292.106, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 292.106, \"end\": 293.487, \"score\": 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\"進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 312.36, \"end\": 312.56, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 312.56, \"end\": 312.96, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 312.96, \"end\": 313.241, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 313.241, \"end\": 313.441, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 313.441, \"end\": 313.861, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 313.861, \"end\": 314.101, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 314.101, \"end\": 314.381, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 314.381, \"end\": 314.661, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 314.661, \"end\": 314.861, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 314.861, \"end\": 315.081, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 315.081, \"end\": 315.962, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": 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\"text\": \"好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 390.589, \"end\": 391.19, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 391.19, \"end\": 391.45, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 391.45, \"end\": 392.251, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 392.251, \"end\": 392.532, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 392.532, \"end\": 392.852, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 392.852, \"end\": 394.054, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 394.054, \"end\": 394.935, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"展\", \"start\": 394.935, \"end\": 395.256, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"組\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 395.256, \"end\": 395.436, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 395.436, \"end\": 395.596, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 614.862, \"end\": 615.303, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 615.303, \"end\": 615.323, \"score\": 0.037}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,959 --> 00:00:13,497\n好謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:20,889 --> 00:00:41,385\n今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善\n\n3\n00:00:42,185 --> 00:01:09,194\n那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的\n\n4\n00:01:09,574 --> 00:01:32,018\n那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題\n\n5\n00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:50,108\n所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部\n\n6\n00:01:50,228 --> 00:02:17,840\n經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分\n\n7\n00:02:18,993 --> 00:02:45,883\n那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施\n\n8\n00:02:46,503 --> 00:03:05,324\n他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊\n\n9\n00:03:06,645 --> 00:03:25,938\n是我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力\n\n10\n00:03:26,698 --> 00:03:55,918\n那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中\n\n11\n00:03:56,758 --> 00:04:10,287\n可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也\n\n12\n00:04:12,208 --> 00:04:27,234\n做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整\n\n13\n00:04:28,975 --> 00:04:47,623\n這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多\n\n14\n00:04:49,344 --> 00:05:10,899\n機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來\n\n15\n00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:27,706\n進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定\n\n16\n00:05:28,326 --> 00:05:52,305\n老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整\n\n17\n00:05:52,805 --> 00:06:12,402\n那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個\n\n18\n00:06:14,244 --> 00:06:29,584\n三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考\n\n19\n00:06:30,589 --> 00:06:42,687\n好那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面\n\n20\n00:06:46,112 --> 00:07:09,041\n跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來\n\n21\n00:07:09,981 --> 00:07:29,682\n對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告\n\n22\n00:07:30,723 --> 00:07:47,674\n那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分\n\n23\n00:07:48,362 --> 00:08:04,637\n就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等\n\n24\n00:08:05,237 --> 00:08:19,173\n所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況\n\n25\n00:08:20,394 --> 00:08:38,249\n所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些\n\n26\n00:08:39,550 --> 00:08:57,610\n我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好那個跟委員說明\n\n27\n00:08:59,384 --> 00:09:15,856\n其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計\n\n28\n00:09:18,083 --> 00:09:37,610\n比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在\n\n29\n00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:58,802\n當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長\n\n30\n00:10:01,363 --> 00:10:15,323\n那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好那就大家一起努力好謝謝謝謝副部長謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8959\t13497\t好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長\n20889\t41385\t今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善\n42185\t69194\t那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的\n69574\t92018\t那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題\n94799\t110108\t所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部\n110228\t137840\t經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分\n138993\t165883\t那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施\n166503\t185324\t他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊\n186645\t205938\t是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力\n206698\t235918\t那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中\n236758\t250287\t可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也\n252208\t267234\t做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整\n268975\t287623\t這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多\n289344\t310899\t機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來\n312360\t327706\t進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定\n328326\t352305\t老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整\n352805\t372402\t那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個\n374244\t389584\t三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考\n390589\t402687\t好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面\n406112\t429041\t跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來\n429981\t449682\t對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告\n450723\t467674\t那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分\n468362\t484637\t就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等\n485237\t499173\t所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況\n500394\t518249\t所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些\n519550\t537610\t我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 那個跟委員說明\n539384\t555856\t其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計\n558083\t577610\t比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在\n578850\t598802\t當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長\n601363\t615323\t那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好 那就大家一起努力好 謝謝謝謝副部長 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長\n今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善\n那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的\n那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題\n所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部\n經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分\n那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施\n他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊\n是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力\n那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中\n可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也\n做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整\n這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多\n機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來\n進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定\n老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整\n那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個\n三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考\n好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面\n跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來\n對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告\n那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分\n就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等\n所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況\n所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些\n我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 那個跟委員說明\n其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計\n比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在\n當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長\n那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好 那就大家一起努力好 謝謝謝謝副部長 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.959 --> 00:13.497\n好謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長\n\n00:20.889 --> 00:41.385\n今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善\n\n00:42.185 --> 01:09.194\n那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的\n\n01:09.574 --> 01:32.018\n那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題\n\n01:34.799 --> 01:50.108\n所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部\n\n01:50.228 --> 02:17.840\n經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分\n\n02:18.993 --> 02:45.883\n那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施\n\n02:46.503 --> 03:05.324\n他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊\n\n03:06.645 --> 03:25.938\n是我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力\n\n03:26.698 --> 03:55.918\n那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中\n\n03:56.758 --> 04:10.287\n可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也\n\n04:12.208 --> 04:27.234\n做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整\n\n04:28.975 --> 04:47.623\n這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多\n\n04:49.344 --> 05:10.899\n機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來\n\n05:12.360 --> 05:27.706\n進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定\n\n05:28.326 --> 05:52.305\n老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整\n\n05:52.805 --> 06:12.402\n那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個\n\n06:14.244 --> 06:29.584\n三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考\n\n06:30.589 --> 06:42.687\n好那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面\n\n06:46.112 --> 07:09.041\n跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來\n\n07:09.981 --> 07:29.682\n對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告\n\n07:30.723 --> 07:47.674\n那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分\n\n07:48.362 --> 08:04.637\n就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等\n\n08:05.237 --> 08:19.173\n所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況\n\n08:20.394 --> 08:38.249\n所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些\n\n08:39.550 --> 08:57.610\n我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好那個跟委員說明\n\n08:59.384 --> 09:15.856\n其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計\n\n09:18.083 --> 09:37.610\n比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在\n\n09:38.850 --> 09:58.802\n當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長\n\n10:01.363 --> 10:15.323\n那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好那就大家一起努力好謝謝謝謝副部長謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.959,"end":13.497,"text":"好 謝謝主席還是請洪部長我們請洪部長"},{"start":20.889,"end":41.385,"text":"今天主要還是針對三個問題來跟部長討論第一個問題就是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源的部分第二個部分就是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度第三個事情就是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善"},{"start":42.185,"end":69.194,"text":"那第一個部分就是我們今天的主題就是要減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會資源這個最重要的主題那我相信今天早上部長的口頭報告還有書面報告裡面我們都看得非常清楚目前在減班休息的統計裡面10月1號報告媒體也發布了人數達到了8505位然後等等的"},{"start":69.574,"end":92.018,"text":"那以製造業佔9成5比較多那減班的休息的產業非常集中看起來有在上升當中雖然數字看起來似乎有點爭緩的現象那受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致顯示我們出口導向的產業農屬於在壓力期這不是單純勞動部的責任而是整體經濟跟產業競爭力的問題"},{"start":94.799,"end":110.108,"text":"所以不知道剛剛部長好像也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論那請問在這個過程裡面有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施包括財政部"},{"start":110.228,"end":137.84,"text":"經濟部等等的因為我們知道如果只是把這個聚焦在補貼訓練缺少產業端的資源的話我們很擔心是不是從這個根本在處理過程裡面缺少了這一塊不知道部長這邊的想法跟王遠說明因為的確當然勞動部我們的角色跟這個我們的本職主要部分是協助勞工的部分"},{"start":138.993,"end":165.883,"text":"那針對企業在經營端的協助比方說企業的創新或者是融資等等等會是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持那王委員剛才講到說受衝擊的產業的清單當然我們像把減半休息的數據這都是一個公開的數據那我們也常常會跟經濟部跟財政部在交流那也包括把彼此的資訊做交換因為確實很多支持的措施"},{"start":166.503,"end":185.324,"text":"他不一定能夠一個一個單一拉出來看而是要從多重的角度甚至需要一些互相的支援來去看那所以我想我們跟經濟部跟財政部其實是一直都保持一些訊息的互通那也包括衝擊面的互通所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊那我們會提供給經濟部一些資訊"},{"start":186.645,"end":205.938,"text":"是 我相信如果能夠跟各個跨部會的這些互相支援的話對勞工來講我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解透明的這些資訊我相信對我們的勞工朋友來講應該是會非常受歡迎的這部分就請部長持續來努力"},{"start":206.698,"end":235.918,"text":"那第二部分就是有關於這個超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題我們先看一個數據我們也知道從100年到113年65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中我們在100年的時候是7.93%那到了113年將近的10%所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中"},{"start":236.758,"end":250.287,"text":"可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上這個勞參率其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷崖式的這個下降那這部分我們當然非常擔心我們在10月1號也"},{"start":252.208,"end":267.234,"text":"做了一個公聽會就是因應超高齡社會的這個政策公聽會我們在那個過程裡面很多專家學者都提出相關的建議希望能夠朝一個更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整"},{"start":268.975,"end":287.623,"text":"這個部分主要就是說我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的做法是說在60到65歲或者是在63歲到67歲之間能不能有一個過度式的一種退休的可能性那這樣好處就是可以控制更多"},{"start":289.344,"end":310.899,"text":"機會讓年輕人來共同參與那也可以是一個適應性的能夠處理工作經驗的傳承那我們也了解這樣的模式的退休方式可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合比如說像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等他可以透過這種傳承式的漸進式的退休模式來"},{"start":312.36,"end":327.706,"text":"進行那這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助那我們也看到一份報告那這份報告也許部長也有參考過就是在今年的七月份國會院也出了一個論壇的報告包括法定"},{"start":328.326,"end":352.305,"text":"老年跟退休年齡的研討那這個裡面有一些短中期的這些建議那他們也希望透過這個建議來是不是部裡面能夠來評估它的可行性包括重要的三點一個就是建立中高齡這個勞工就業跟職安評估系統把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整"},{"start":352.805,"end":372.402,"text":"那第二部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計的這個機制剛剛葉群文也有提到這部分的質詢那另外就是適行韓信退休制度避免這個突然就是一個斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊那這個"},{"start":374.244,"end":389.584,"text":"三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法或者是未來在處理的時候有哪一些可以在跟部裡面共同來研議的地方那是不是可以請部長也在兩個月提供這個相關的書面報告給我們做參考"},{"start":390.589,"end":402.687,"text":"好 那跟委員說明其實我們發展組現在是非常非常重視植物在設計因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工他要進入到一個職場他會需要在這個職場上面"},{"start":406.112,"end":429.041,"text":"跟他之間有些相對應的這個磨合跟調整有些部分會需要重新再做設計所以接下來其實我想發展署在那植物在設計部分你會做一些更細緻的資源的配置希望能夠把植物在設計做得更到位這是第一個第二個是委員剛才其實講到這幾個建議我想我自己都其實都是蠻贊同的所以我也願意我們來"},{"start":429.981,"end":449.682,"text":"對於比方說像中高齡工就業跟職安的評估的系統那的確可能中高齡工在職業安全上面或就業上面其實他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況那我覺得這些相關的評估我覺得我們願意來做來思考跟演繹這樣子好那就麻煩部長在部裡面兩個月給我們一個書面評估的報告"},{"start":450.723,"end":467.674,"text":"那最後一項就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討因為我們也從這個監察院的調查報告裡面也瞭解到多元培力就業計畫裡面缺乏這個長期的追蹤那其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分"},{"start":468.362,"end":484.637,"text":"就是說有一些手術進入職場那很有可能他進職場的時候會變成是一個上工人士的一個指標的一部分那很有可能他很快就又離開然後又重新進入職場等等"},{"start":485.237,"end":499.173,"text":"所以在這個部分監察院的報告也告訴我們說如果僅是用協助上工人來做指標的話可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況"},{"start":500.394,"end":518.249,"text":"所以這個比例如果偏低的話我相信對職場的這個安定其實是非常不利的所以也請勞動部來研議針對這一列的計劃進行以人為單位的長期追蹤讓我們可以掌握到職場尤其是對一些"},{"start":519.55,"end":537.61,"text":"我們的勞工朋友他如果是這樣進出職場事實上對他職業生涯不好以外對人力的穩定性其實也很不當的影響那這部分也可以麻煩部長有在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告好 那個跟委員說明"},{"start":539.384,"end":555.856,"text":"其實多元培育就業計劃其實他的這個時間很長他其實已經非常非常多年了那他其實在不同的階段其實我覺得他擔負了不同的功能一開始這個計劃實施的時候他其實是在失業率很高的時候所以當初包括KPI的設計"},{"start":558.083,"end":577.61,"text":"比較多是針對那怎麼去解決當下的那些失業的問題所以比方很多會上工的人次來作為思考那我們也現在陸陸續續在檢視不管是多元或賠利的這計畫其實如果我們去看的話可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面其實我覺得他一個很重要的意義已經他協助了很多青年返鄉在"},{"start":578.85,"end":598.802,"text":"當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下有一份薪資上面或者是這個經濟上面的支持他現在在這個青年返鄉的支持的意義其實我覺得他是更大的所以我覺得我們當然可以來檢討一下就是這個計畫他在KPI的設計上面能不能納入更多符合這個當下需求的思考那這部分我們可以來檢討因為確實這個計畫的時間很長"},{"start":601.363,"end":615.323,"text":"那也陸陸續續書裡面發言書裡面也持續對這個事情有蠻多的一些檢討那我覺得也應該與時俱進做一些調整讓它一些現在更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來這樣子好 那就大家一起努力好 謝謝謝謝副部長 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時8分）謝謝主席，還是請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天要針對三個問題來跟部長討論，第一是減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會支援的部分，第二個部分是面對超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度，第三是勞發署多元就業開發方案的檢討改善。其中減班休息重點衝擊產業跨部會支援就是今天最重要的主題，從今天早上部長的口頭報告和書面報告裡面，我們都看得非常清楚，此外，根據媒體報導，10月1日勞動部公布最新減班休息人數達到8,505人，其中製造業占9成5，這是比較多的；雖然增幅似乎有趨緩的現象，但是減班休息的產業非常集中且持續上升。受影響主要是外銷訂單減少所致，顯示出口導向產業仍處於壓力期，這不是單純勞動部的責任，而是整體經濟、產業競爭力的問題。","剛剛部長好像說你們也有跟經濟部或其他部會做一些討論，請問在這個過程裡面，有沒有在跨部會的會議當中去協調特定產業面的穩定措施？包括財政部、經濟部等等的。因為我們很擔心，如果只聚焦在補貼、訓練，而缺少產業端支援的話，是不是會在根本改善當中少了這一塊？不知道部長的想法為何？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，我們勞動部的角色和本職主要是協助勞工，針對企業在經營端的協助，比方說企業的創新、融資等等，是由經濟部或財政部來做相關的支持。王委員剛剛講到受衝擊的產業清單，我們有關減班休息的數據都是公開的，我們也常常跟經濟部、財政部交流，包括交換彼此的資訊，因為確實有很多支持的措施不一定能夠一個、一個單一地拿出來看，而是要從多重角度甚至互相支援去看。我們跟經濟部、財政部其實一直都保持訊息互通，也包括衝擊面的互通，所以我們也從經濟部那邊取得一些資訊，我們也會提供給經濟部一些資訊。"],["王委員正旭：是，我相信如果能夠跨部會互相支援的話，我們也可以把這個訊息讓他們都清楚的掌握跟了解，我想對我們的勞工朋友來講，透明的這些資訊應該是會非常受歡迎的，這部分就請部長持續來努力。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員正旭：第二部分就是有關於超高齡社會規劃彈性退休制度的這個主題，我們先看一個數據，我們也知道從100年到113年，65歲以上的勞動參與率事實上是有在提升當中，我們在100年的時候是7.93%，到了113年將近10%，所以似乎有明顯在慢慢的回升當中，可是我們也看到64歲以下跟65歲以上的勞參率，其實是呈現斷崖式或是斷檔式的下降，這部分我們當然非常擔心。我們在10月1日也做了一個公聽會，就是因應超高齡社會的政策公聽會，我們在過程裡面，很多專家學者都提出相關的建議，希望能夠朝著更彈性退休或漸進退休的方向來調整。這個部分主要就是我們希望將來不要是65歲就突然說你明天就退休這樣的作法，而是在60到65歲，或者是在63歲到67歲之間，能不能有一個過渡式退休的可能性？這樣的好處就是可以空出更多機會讓年輕人來共同參與，也可以是一個適應性的，能夠處理工作經驗的傳承。我們也了解這種模式的退休方式，可能在某一些相對的職業會比較適合，比如像大學老師或是高專業的工作等等，他可以透過這種傳承式的、漸進式的退休模式來進行，這樣的部分可能未來也需要勞動部更多的協助。","我們也看到一份報告，這份報告也許部長也有參考過，就是在今年的7月份，國衛院也出了一個論壇的報告《法定老年及退休年齡之研討》，這裡面有一些短、中期的建議，他們也希望透過這個建議，部裡面是不是能夠來評估它的可行性？包括重要的三點，一個就是建立中高齡勞工就業跟職安評估系統，把這個系統可以建立得非常的完整；第二個部分就是鼓勵企業提供中高齡職業再設計機制，剛剛月琴委員也有提到這部分的質詢；另外就是試行彈性退休制度，避免突然斷崖式的退休導致一個比較明顯的衝擊。這三個部分不知道部長有沒有一些想法，或者是未來在處理的時候，有哪一些可以再跟部裡面共同來研議的地方？可不可以請部長也在兩個月提供相關的書面報告給我們做參考？"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟委員說明，其實我們發展署現在是非常非常重視職務再設計，因為的確會有很多中高齡的勞工要進入到職場，他會希望、他會需要在這個職場上面跟他之間有些相對應的磨合跟調整，有些部分會需要重新再做設計，所以接下來我想發展署針對職務再設計的部分，也會做一些更細緻的資源配置，希望能夠把職務再設計做得更到位，這是第一個。第二個是委員剛才講到的這幾個建議，我想我自己其實都是滿贊同的，所以我也願意來研議，對於比方像中高齡就業跟職安評估的系統，的確可能中高齡的勞工在職業安全上面或就業上面，他會有一個跟其他年齡比較不一樣的狀況，這些相關的評估，我覺得我們願意來做思考跟研議。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長，部裡面在兩個月給我們一個書面評估報告。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：最後一項，就是有關多元培力就業計畫的檢討，因為我們從監察院的調查報告也了解到多元培力就業計畫缺乏長期的追蹤，其實剛剛部長也有稍微提到青年就業裡面的一個部分，就是有一些首次進入職場，很有可能他進職場的時候，會變成是一個上工人次指標的一部分，很有可能他很快就又離開，然後又重新進入職場等等。所以在這個部分，監察院的報告也告訴我們，如果僅是用「協助上工人次」來做指標的話，可能會無法實質上反映出他長期就業的狀況，所以這個比例如果偏低的話，我相信對職場的安定其實是非常不利的。所以是不是也請勞動部來研議針對這一類的計畫，進行以人為單位的長期追蹤？讓我們可以掌握到職場，尤其是對一些勞工朋友，他如果是這樣進出職場，事實上對他職涯生涯不好以外，對人力的穩定性其實也有很不當的影響，這部分也麻煩部長在兩個月左右給我們一個相關的報告。"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟委員說明，其實多元培力就業計畫的時間很長，它其實已經非常非常多年了，在不同的階段，我覺得它擔負了不同的功能，一開始這個計畫實施的時候，它其實是在失業率很高的時候，所以當初包括KPI的設計，比較多是針對怎麼去解決當下那些失業的問題，所以有很多會以上工的人次來作為思考。我們也正在陸陸續續檢視不管是多元或培力的這個計畫，如果委員去看的話，可以看到現在在這個計畫裡面，我覺得它一個很重要的意義是協助了很多青年返鄉，在當地的工作能夠扎根的那個當下，有一份薪資上面或者是經濟上面的支持，現在在青年返鄉支持的意義，我覺得它是更大的，所以我們當然可以來檢討一下這個計畫在KPI的設計上面，能不能納入更多符合當下需求的思考，這部分我們可以來檢討，因為確實這個計畫的時間很長，陸陸續續發展署裡面也持續對這個事情有滿多的一些檢討，我覺得也應該與時俱進，做一些調整，讓它的一些更重要的社會意義能夠凸顯出來。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就大家一起努力。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席（廖委員偉翔）：謝謝王正旭委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}