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{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 1073.96, \"end\": 1074.12, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1074.12, \"end\": 1074.381, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 1074.381, \"end\": 1074.521, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1074.521, \"end\": 1075.621, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1075.621, \"end\": 1075.721, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1075.721, \"end\": 1075.801, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1075.801, \"end\": 1075.821, \"score\": 0.01}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,894 --> 00:00:39,307\n台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓\n\n2\n00:00:41,228 --> 00:01:02,897\n這個肉圓的頭家已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間我就看一個年輕人家他說阿傑桑我們好生啊怎麼會在這裡他就聽說現在在找頭路啦現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊有時候要倒介紹嗎好啊委員你有什麼介紹的空間很歡迎的過一陣子呢就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦\n\n3\n00:01:03,516 --> 00:01:20,005\n啊你老闆勒工廠吃陶螺啊不錯啊但是呢偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢都沒有看到他兒子啊我說欸你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔現在工廠喔生意很好喔在加班喔加班賺點東西\n\n4\n00:01:21,685 --> 00:01:45,255\n過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼\n\n5\n00:01:46,806 --> 00:02:07,094\n他說沒辦法啦現在沒加班要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼今天工廠休息但是呢前天晚上呢人家倒上火上家屬我請教一下喔這種小家庭他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎補貼家用\n\n6\n00:02:11,195 --> 00:02:29,293\n這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找\n\n7\n00:02:30,467 --> 00:02:53,911\n維持生計現在的工廠說不用五天啦三天啦要給你兩天要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽還是幫忙做家事你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作減一下因為要給你兩天嘛在家裡沒事情要賺錢可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎\n\n8\n00:02:55,300 --> 00:03:07,573\n呃當然現在是可以的現在是可以的嘛好那換成你是老闆我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊你工廠喔有請外勞嗎他說有啊有請外勞啊啊現在咧現在啊現在就頂端的酒啊我們請南輝喔啊就先給\n\n9\n00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:40,500\n先給外國人休息為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河有在欠人的對不對做農的做稀土的他去幫忙這樣可以嗎\n\n10\n00:03:44,483 --> 00:04:09,427\n這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆台灣老闆你會怎麼做\n\n11\n00:04:13,005 --> 00:04:39,315\n可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛要多了就給他給一些時間要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠做事情做事頭有辦法修理嘛好現在問了請問一下您說解萬秀一七千多人有沒有報案他說\n\n12\n00:04:42,662 --> 00:05:08,024\n現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看\n\n13\n00:05:09,501 --> 00:05:36,607\n現在我們現在啊農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢但是台灣人喔你如果說過去喔我們中小企業中小工廠啊你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情你會回去出來什麼倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活他不會說啊做不來啦\n\n14\n00:05:37,367 --> 00:06:02,828\n所以誰會做移工在做啦好往下看所以我們那時候呢說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在我就死了嘛我就去找房子但是我有些效果我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的我來看一些掛紅來啦種一些事情那這種情況下很普遍我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦\n\n15\n00:06:04,270 --> 00:06:20,611\n碼頭就是什麼公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌很多在旁財你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁都是碼頭去救他他有固定的卡啦\n\n16\n00:06:21,232 --> 00:06:46,853\n現在什麼人中破災要去賺幾兆賺50兆賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷他會去繳那樣就知道了往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下\n\n17\n00:06:50,290 --> 00:07:19,289\n有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好請告訴我具體來講\n\n18\n00:07:21,482 --> 00:07:38,064\n依法才能開放本國的勞工沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查上教室塞車上會可以嗎啊依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議哪些違法請告訴我\n\n19\n00:07:42,820 --> 00:08:06,929\n蘇長趕快你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是報告委員基本上移工的開放當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以有哪些風險哪些爭議目前就無法有明定就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主法律規定嘛對不對是的好那你告訴我法律規定之外有哪些爭議有哪些違法先不講違法哪些爭議哪些失誤的問題\n\n20\n00:08:09,301 --> 00:08:28,878\n除了法律的規定之外有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時我問你現在啦是他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說我剛剛就講了嘛陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息外勞先給他休息嘛\n\n21\n00:08:29,699 --> 00:08:57,449\n啊移工休息了那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙影響到誰的就業\n\n22\n00:08:59,178 --> 00:09:12,132\n影響到誰的就業你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎\n\n23\n00:09:13,308 --> 00:09:29,838\n我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看來\n\n24\n00:09:31,219 --> 00:09:57,031\n現在呢農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚他就搶了他說舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛\n\n25\n00:09:57,951 --> 00:10:02,117\n但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看\n\n26\n00:10:03,086 --> 00:10:32,536\n因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣往下看\n\n27\n00:10:33,581 --> 00:10:57,208\n再往下看往回往回往回看再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度\n\n28\n00:10:58,268 --> 00:11:25,295\n因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎\n\n29\n00:11:27,662 --> 00:11:50,561\n我如果說大工手啦吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦對吧有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下那為什麼移工要做這個事\n\n30\n00:11:52,049 --> 00:12:07,006\n為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分\n\n31\n00:12:08,287 --> 00:12:32,266\n我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎\n\n32\n00:12:34,349 --> 00:12:58,004\n一天多少錢嗎其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工我們有在漆鼻的去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後七點\n\n33\n00:12:59,348 --> 00:13:07,646\n農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢\n\n34\n00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:37,895\n那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係\n\n35\n00:13:38,795 --> 00:14:00,488\n他不用逃逸他不用失聯為什麼因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了他就不會長而且呢這個老公來講一樣回去怎麼樣工廠包大隻工廠包吃住那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠我會貼你嗎我當然也貼你\n\n36\n00:14:05,894 --> 00:14:20,154\n所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸不會失聯往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣\n\n37\n00:14:21,462 --> 00:14:44,857\n有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊務農的外移工啊安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠\n\n38\n00:14:48,931 --> 00:15:02,271\n職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以\n\n39\n00:15:03,479 --> 00:15:31,101\n那個委員這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道\n\n40\n00:15:32,219 --> 00:15:48,238\n就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有\n\n41\n00:15:48,973 --> 00:16:02,450\n可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住\n\n42\n00:16:03,499 --> 00:16:30,712\n但是這些移工竟然搶你可能美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散我不會嘛我希望這些移工的繼續在我的工廠欸申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子有人計票出兵有欠工的他去幫倒卡車多少兩三千賺一下對不對都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠能夠好管理有什麼不好署長請告訴我什麼不好\n\n43\n00:16:32,247 --> 00:16:53,198\n老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答\n\n44\n00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:13,956\n是鮑委員我們有一程序成合那是不是有沒有給部長看過嗎可能我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案\n\n45\n00:17:15,479 --> 00:17:36,389\n講了一些空空的問題什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以\n\n46\n00:17:36,929 --> 00:17:55,821\n部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11894\t39307\t台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓\n41228\t62897\t這個肉圓的頭家 已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間 我就看一個年輕人家他說 阿傑桑 我們好生啊 怎麼會在這裡他就聽說 現在在找頭路啦 現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊 有時候要倒介紹嗎 好啊 委員 你有什麼介紹的空間 很歡迎的過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦\n63516\t80005\t啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃陶螺啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺點東西\n81685\t105255\t過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼\n106806\t127094\t他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用\n131195\t149293\t這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找\n150467\t173911\t維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天啦 三天啦要給你兩天 要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事情要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎\n175300\t187573\t呃 當然現在是可以的 現在是可以的嘛好 那換成你是老闆 我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊 你工廠喔 有請外勞嗎 他說有啊 有請外勞啊啊 現在咧 現在 啊 現在就 頂端的酒啊 我們請南輝喔 啊 就先給\n196160\t220500\t先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙這樣可以嗎\n224483\t249427\t這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆 台灣老闆你會怎麼做\n253005\t279315\t可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮 經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有辦法修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一七千多人 有沒有報案 他說\n282662\t308024\t現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看\n309501\t336607\t現在我們現在啊 農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了 農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢 但是台灣人喔 你如果說過去喔我們中小企業 中小工廠啊 你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情 你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊 你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活 他不會說啊 做不來啦\n337367\t362828\t所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我有些效果 我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的 我來看一些掛紅來啦 種一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦\n364270\t380611\t碼頭就是什麼 公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌 很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁 都是碼頭去救他 他有固定的卡啦\n381232\t406853\t現在什麼人中破災 要去賺幾兆 賺50兆 賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷 他會去繳那樣就知道了 往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下\n410290\t439289\t有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講\n441482\t458064\t依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我\n462820\t486929\t蘇長 趕快 你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員 基本上移工的開放 當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以 有哪些風險 哪些爭議目前就無法有明定 就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主 法律規定嘛 對不對是的 好 那你告訴我 法律規定之外有哪些爭議 有哪些違法先不講違法 哪些爭議 哪些失誤的問題\n489301\t508878\t除了法律的規定之外 有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的 你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明 因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時 我問你現在啦是 他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說 我剛剛就講了嘛 陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛\n509699\t537449\t啊 移工休息了 那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠 流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊 可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛 我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦 除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙 影響到誰的就業\n539178\t552132\t影響到誰的就業 你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個 幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎\n553308\t569838\t我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看 來\n571219\t597031\t現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛\n597951\t602117\t但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看\n603086\t632536\t因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊 收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣 往下看\n633581\t657208\t再往下看 往回往回往回看 再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好 這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度\n658268\t685295\t因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢 那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼 遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉 我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛 我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞 工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎\n687662\t710561\t我如果說大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦 對吧 有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事\n712049\t727006\t為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分\n728287\t752266\t我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間 是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架 是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎\n754349\t778004\t一天多少錢嗎 其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊 它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工 我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後 你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後 七點\n779348\t787646\t農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢\n789600\t817895\t那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係\n818795\t840488\t他不用逃逸 他不用失聯 為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了 他就不會長而且呢 這個老公來講 一樣回去怎麼樣 工廠包大隻工廠包吃住 那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛 我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你\n845894\t860154\t所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸 不會失聯 往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣\n861462\t884857\t有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠\n888931\t902271\t職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以\n903479\t931101\t那個委員 這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對 因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道\n932219\t948238\t就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有\n948973\t962450\t可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住\n963499\t990712\t但是這些移工竟然搶你可能 美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的 繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子 有人計票出兵 有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 多少兩三千賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好\n992247\t1013198\t老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答\n1018560\t1033956\t是 鮑委員 我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過嗎可能 我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案\n1035479\t1056389\t講了一些空空的問題 什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以\n1056929\t1075821\t部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝\n","txt":"台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓\n這個肉圓的頭家 已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間 我就看一個年輕人家他說 阿傑桑 我們好生啊 怎麼會在這裡他就聽說 現在在找頭路啦 現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊 有時候要倒介紹嗎 好啊 委員 你有什麼介紹的空間 很歡迎的過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦\n啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃陶螺啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺點東西\n過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼\n他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用\n這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找\n維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天啦 三天啦要給你兩天 要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事情要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎\n呃 當然現在是可以的 現在是可以的嘛好 那換成你是老闆 我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊 你工廠喔 有請外勞嗎 他說有啊 有請外勞啊啊 現在咧 現在 啊 現在就 頂端的酒啊 我們請南輝喔 啊 就先給\n先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙這樣可以嗎\n這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆 台灣老闆你會怎麼做\n可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮 經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有辦法修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一七千多人 有沒有報案 他說\n現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看\n現在我們現在啊 農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了 農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢 但是台灣人喔 你如果說過去喔我們中小企業 中小工廠啊 你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情 你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊 你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活 他不會說啊 做不來啦\n所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我有些效果 我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的 我來看一些掛紅來啦 種一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦\n碼頭就是什麼 公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌 很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁 都是碼頭去救他 他有固定的卡啦\n現在什麼人中破災 要去賺幾兆 賺50兆 賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷 他會去繳那樣就知道了 往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下\n有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講\n依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我\n蘇長 趕快 你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員 基本上移工的開放 當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以 有哪些風險 哪些爭議目前就無法有明定 就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主 法律規定嘛 對不對是的 好 那你告訴我 法律規定之外有哪些爭議 有哪些違法先不講違法 哪些爭議 哪些失誤的問題\n除了法律的規定之外 有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的 你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明 因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時 我問你現在啦是 他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說 我剛剛就講了嘛 陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛\n啊 移工休息了 那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠 流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊 可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛 我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦 除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙 影響到誰的就業\n影響到誰的就業 你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個 幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎\n我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看 來\n現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛\n但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看\n因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊 收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣 往下看\n再往下看 往回往回往回看 再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好 這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度\n因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢 那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼 遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉 我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛 我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞 工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎\n我如果說大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦 對吧 有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事\n為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分\n我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間 是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架 是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎\n一天多少錢嗎 其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊 它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工 我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後 你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後 七點\n農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢\n那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係\n他不用逃逸 他不用失聯 為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了 他就不會長而且呢 這個老公來講 一樣回去怎麼樣 工廠包大隻工廠包吃住 那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛 我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你\n所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸 不會失聯 往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣\n有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠\n職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以\n那個委員 這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對 因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道\n就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有\n可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住\n但是這些移工竟然搶你可能 美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的 繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子 有人計票出兵 有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 多少兩三千賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好\n老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答\n是 鮑委員 我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過嗎可能 我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案\n講了一些空空的問題 什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以\n部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.894 --> 00:39.307\n台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓\n\n00:41.228 --> 01:02.897\n這個肉圓的頭家已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間我就看一個年輕人家他說阿傑桑我們好生啊怎麼會在這裡他就聽說現在在找頭路啦現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊有時候要倒介紹嗎好啊委員你有什麼介紹的空間很歡迎的過一陣子呢就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦\n\n01:03.516 --> 01:20.005\n啊你老闆勒工廠吃陶螺啊不錯啊但是呢偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢都沒有看到他兒子啊我說欸你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔現在工廠喔生意很好喔在加班喔加班賺點東西\n\n01:21.685 --> 01:45.255\n過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼\n\n01:46.806 --> 02:07.094\n他說沒辦法啦現在沒加班要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼今天工廠休息但是呢前天晚上呢人家倒上火上家屬我請教一下喔這種小家庭他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎補貼家用\n\n02:11.195 --> 02:29.293\n這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找\n\n02:30.467 --> 02:53.911\n維持生計現在的工廠說不用五天啦三天啦要給你兩天要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽還是幫忙做家事你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作減一下因為要給你兩天嘛在家裡沒事情要賺錢可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎\n\n02:55.300 --> 03:07.573\n呃當然現在是可以的現在是可以的嘛好那換成你是老闆我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊你工廠喔有請外勞嗎他說有啊有請外勞啊啊現在咧現在啊現在就頂端的酒啊我們請南輝喔啊就先給\n\n03:16.160 --> 03:40.500\n先給外國人休息為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河有在欠人的對不對做農的做稀土的他去幫忙這樣可以嗎\n\n03:44.483 --> 04:09.427\n這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆台灣老闆你會怎麼做\n\n04:13.005 --> 04:39.315\n可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛要多了就給他給一些時間要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠做事情做事頭有辦法修理嘛好現在問了請問一下您說解萬秀一七千多人有沒有報案他說\n\n04:42.662 --> 05:08.024\n現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看\n\n05:09.501 --> 05:36.607\n現在我們現在啊農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢但是台灣人喔你如果說過去喔我們中小企業中小工廠啊你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情你會回去出來什麼倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活他不會說啊做不來啦\n\n05:37.367 --> 06:02.828\n所以誰會做移工在做啦好往下看所以我們那時候呢說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在我就死了嘛我就去找房子但是我有些效果我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的我來看一些掛紅來啦種一些事情那這種情況下很普遍我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦\n\n06:04.270 --> 06:20.611\n碼頭就是什麼公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌很多在旁財你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁都是碼頭去救他他有固定的卡啦\n\n06:21.232 --> 06:46.853\n現在什麼人中破災要去賺幾兆賺50兆賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷他會去繳那樣就知道了往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下\n\n06:50.290 --> 07:19.289\n有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好請告訴我具體來講\n\n07:21.482 --> 07:38.064\n依法才能開放本國的勞工沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查上教室塞車上會可以嗎啊依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議哪些違法請告訴我\n\n07:42.820 --> 08:06.929\n蘇長趕快你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是報告委員基本上移工的開放當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以有哪些風險哪些爭議目前就無法有明定就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主法律規定嘛對不對是的好那你告訴我法律規定之外有哪些爭議有哪些違法先不講違法哪些爭議哪些失誤的問題\n\n08:09.301 --> 08:28.878\n除了法律的規定之外有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時我問你現在啦是他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說我剛剛就講了嘛陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息外勞先給他休息嘛\n\n08:29.699 --> 08:57.449\n啊移工休息了那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙影響到誰的就業\n\n08:59.178 --> 09:12.132\n影響到誰的就業你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎\n\n09:13.308 --> 09:29.838\n我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看來\n\n09:31.219 --> 09:57.031\n現在呢農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚他就搶了他說舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛\n\n09:57.951 --> 10:02.117\n但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看\n\n10:03.086 --> 10:32.536\n因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣往下看\n\n10:33.581 --> 10:57.208\n再往下看往回往回往回看再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度\n\n10:58.268 --> 11:25.295\n因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎\n\n11:27.662 --> 11:50.561\n我如果說大工手啦吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦對吧有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下那為什麼移工要做這個事\n\n11:52.049 --> 12:07.006\n為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分\n\n12:08.287 --> 12:32.266\n我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎\n\n12:34.349 --> 12:58.004\n一天多少錢嗎其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工我們有在漆鼻的去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後七點\n\n12:59.348 --> 13:07.646\n農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢\n\n13:09.600 --> 13:37.895\n那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係\n\n13:38.795 --> 14:00.488\n他不用逃逸他不用失聯為什麼因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了他就不會長而且呢這個老公來講一樣回去怎麼樣工廠包大隻工廠包吃住那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠我會貼你嗎我當然也貼你\n\n14:05.894 --> 14:20.154\n所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸不會失聯往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣\n\n14:21.462 --> 14:44.857\n有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊務農的外移工啊安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠\n\n14:48.931 --> 15:02.271\n職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以\n\n15:03.479 --> 15:31.101\n那個委員這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道\n\n15:32.219 --> 15:48.238\n就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有\n\n15:48.973 --> 16:02.450\n可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住\n\n16:03.499 --> 16:30.712\n但是這些移工竟然搶你可能美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散我不會嘛我希望這些移工的繼續在我的工廠欸申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子有人計票出兵有欠工的他去幫倒卡車多少兩三千賺一下對不對都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠能夠好管理有什麼不好署長請告訴我什麼不好\n\n16:32.247 --> 16:53.198\n老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答\n\n16:58.560 --> 17:13.956\n是鮑委員我們有一程序成合那是不是有沒有給部長看過嗎可能我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案\n\n17:15.479 --> 17:36.389\n講了一些空空的問題什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以\n\n17:36.929 --> 17:55.821\n部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.894,"end":39.307,"text":"台主席在場的委員先進列席的政府機關所長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生那麼有請我們洪部長有請洪部長座委員好部長好好像我是這一次第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教我想大家談了很多的簡班休息啊我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察我經常去吃一間肉圓"},{"start":41.228,"end":62.897,"text":"這個肉圓的頭家 已經做了幾十年了之前有段時間 我就看一個年輕人家他說 阿傑桑 我們好生啊 怎麼會在這裡他就聽說 現在在找頭路啦 現在不是沒事來我倒卡手啦我說很好很好啊 有時候要倒介紹嗎 好啊 委員 你有什麼介紹的空間 很歡迎的過一陣子呢 就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙啦"},{"start":63.516,"end":80.005,"text":"啊 你老闆勒 工廠吃陶螺啊 不錯啊但是呢 偶爾晚一點我去呢他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子後來一段時間呢 都沒有看到他兒子啊我說 欸 你老闆怎麼都沒看到人喔 現在工廠喔 生意很好喔在加班喔 加班賺點東西"},{"start":81.685,"end":105.255,"text":"過一陣子拿個帖子給我他娶媳婦了後來是他媳婦在幫忙做這個小攤吃的生意現在有一個情況出現了結果現在因為減班休息沒加班了嘛他沒有加班了嘛可是沒有加班了我說你老闆現在怎麼會有時間看到他他待會沒來跟他打招呼"},{"start":106.806,"end":127.094,"text":"他說沒辦法啦 現在沒加班 要外面再賺錢啦有時候早上去 他兒子睡眼醒都出來為什麼 今天工廠休息 但是呢前天晚上呢 人家倒上火 上家屬我請教一下喔 這種小家庭 他這種員工啊工廠休息的時候 晚上去人家倒上家屬這樣可以嗎 補貼家用"},{"start":131.195,"end":149.293,"text":"這其實就是一些兼職的狀況兼職的狀況嘛好 現在問題來啦問題是說當他工廠減班休息他沒辦好加班的時候他去倒送回現在他現在減班會減到什麼程度本來只是生產訂單變少不用加班但他另外找"},{"start":150.467,"end":173.911,"text":"維持生計 現在的工廠說不用五天啦 三天啦要給你兩天 要給你兩天是怎樣在家裡敷豆芽 還是幫忙做家事 你覺得他要怎麼辦他可不可以去找一個白天的工作 減一下因為要給你兩天嘛 在家裡沒事情要賺錢 可以嗎可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎"},{"start":175.3,"end":187.573,"text":"呃 當然現在是可以的 現在是可以的嘛好 那換成你是老闆 我也問一下那個工廠的老闆啦啊 你工廠喔 有請外勞嗎 他說有啊 有請外勞啊啊 現在咧 現在 啊 現在就 頂端的酒啊 我們請南輝喔 啊 就先給"},{"start":196.16,"end":220.5,"text":"先給外國人休息 為什麼不然我先要照顧我們每個人我們台灣的先給他繼續上班現在有時候他做的地方我南非部分 我就叫外國人先休息你外國人休息都做什麼真的要知道嗎我們整個界標出兵山河 有在欠人的對不對做農的 做稀土的 他去幫忙這樣可以嗎"},{"start":224.483,"end":249.427,"text":"這樣可以嗎不然你要跟台灣老闆說這樣減班休息這個月就繼續做這個台灣老闆你休息你去外面檢查哪一種比較好你覺得站在老闆的立場哪一種比較善待員工當然減班休息都是大家不是很樂意見到的狀況如果你是老闆 台灣老闆你會怎麼做"},{"start":253.005,"end":279.315,"text":"可能不同的工廠會有不同的做法是啊 但是我覺得這個我們整個人看到像老闆這麼大心對不對 他們本來顧小蘭花嘛現在蘭花受窮 經常被人照顧嘛他想說要台灣人繼續做嘛 要多了就給他給一些時間 要讓他出面討賣反正他現在能夠做工廠 做事情 做事頭 有辦法修理嘛好 現在問了請問一下 您說解萬秀一七千多人 有沒有報案 他說"},{"start":282.662,"end":308.024,"text":"現在總體的數字是8505人那有沒有包括移工那這裡面有包括移工有包括移工嘛移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧嘛對不對移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助沒有沒有移工完全不行那就說問題來了所以移工到目前呢他會是我們台灣老闆說讓他自謀生路啦什麼方式往下一頁看"},{"start":309.501,"end":336.607,"text":"現在我們現在啊 農業很缺勞工啊我上次已經講過了 農業缺工是常態我們過去農業部也申請過農業移工但是呢 但是台灣人喔 你如果說過去喔我們中小企業 中小工廠啊 你如果說出來有正產的喔你工廠檢測的事情 你會回去出來什麼 倒卡手嘛但是現在台灣的勞工啊 你叫他說工廠休息他去幫忙農活 他不會說啊 做不來啦"},{"start":337.367,"end":362.828,"text":"所以誰會做 移工在做啦 好 往下看所以我們那時候呢 說原來的這個全職轉廠跟異地建材如果說現在 我就死了嘛 我就去找房子但是我有些效果 我來幫忙做出來的工序我們都有種產的 我來看一些掛紅來啦 種一些事情那這種情況下 很普遍 我們整個有種叫做茅頭啦"},{"start":364.27,"end":380.611,"text":"碼頭就是什麼 公投啦碼頭在做什麼工作有時候我們辦桌 很多在旁財 你知道什麼是旁財旁財不可能是全職啦因為這個辦桌的私信 有一尊沒一尊所以旁財齁 都是碼頭去救他 他有固定的卡啦"},{"start":381.232,"end":406.853,"text":"現在什麼人中破災 要去賺幾兆 賺50兆 賺30兆他就夠電的卡銷 他會去繳那樣就知道了 往下看所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子在我們這個災後的農業還是繼續缺工那因為工廠裡面的廠工他有工作的需求那我們就是說有需求有方法我們來執行所以農業部就提出了一個製造業移工資源農業兼職的運用架構請問勞動部有沒有看過往下一下"},{"start":410.29,"end":439.289,"text":"有沒有看過這份我還沒看到這份還沒看到這份我在8月20號願意提出質詢的時候那時候農業部已經幫你這個辦法了好 那我今天提供給您因為在你們還沒有看過這個辦法之前農業勞動部給我一個回覆因為我8月20號提出來嘛在昨天馬上告訴我說什麼現行依法未開放移工跨業資源跨業別資源還有多項法律適用的食物問題亦衍生爭議違法風險好 請告訴我 具體來講"},{"start":441.482,"end":458.064,"text":"依法才能開放本國的勞工 沒什麼頭痛症我下班後去檢查 上教室塞車 上會 可以嗎啊 依工來不能稱請那請問告訴我有哪些適用的問題哪些爭議 哪些違法 請告訴我"},{"start":462.82,"end":486.929,"text":"蘇長 趕快 你們的答覆可能部長還沒有看過是 報告委員 基本上移工的開放 當時候的移工政策你告訴我哪些法律不可以 有哪些風險 哪些爭議目前就無法有明定 就是移工只能由單一雇主單一雇主 法律規定嘛 對不對是的 好 那你告訴我 法律規定之外有哪些爭議 有哪些違法先不講違法 哪些爭議 哪些失誤的問題"},{"start":489.301,"end":508.878,"text":"除了法律的規定之外 有沒有什麼實際的狀況遇到沒辦法解決的 你們告訴我幾樣跟委員說明 因為當時義工政策開放的設計我不是問你當時 我問你現在啦是 他的設計是不能影響國人就業機會所以說 我剛剛就講了嘛 陶傑公就是不影響國人就業所以我要減班休息 外勞先給他休息嘛"},{"start":509.699,"end":537.449,"text":"啊 移工休息了 那他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法事實上就存在了嘛現在很多工廠 流血滾的移工都旁邊的人在唱在哀啊 要讓他們倒卡笑一下啊 可以嗎這可不可以我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作這個就是為了要確保國人就業權益你還是老化嘛 我說哪些爭議啦有哪些失誤的困難啦 除了你剛剛講的那些之外他去幫忙農忙 影響到誰的就業"},{"start":539.178,"end":552.132,"text":"影響到誰的就業 你告訴我現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的你們告訴我幾個 幫忙農活有現在本國勞工影響本國勞工的就業嗎"},{"start":553.308,"end":569.838,"text":"我們現在對農業移工其實上是開放的是開放我知道好了 告訴你為什麼有問題來往下看這是非常太簡單不是等於全面開放移工跨業別我只有說幫忙做農活我沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上喔往下看 來"},{"start":571.219,"end":597.031,"text":"現在呢 農業部大概提出架構的時候他也很清楚 他就搶了他說 舊福法相關勞動法規鬆綁的前提之下他提出了這個案子他也知道你們的舊福法有規定但是你看喔現在外國人從事舊福法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準當中規定有外展的農務工作嘛所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛所以是開放嘛"},{"start":597.951,"end":602.117,"text":"但是為什麼農業部門這個移工農業的移工不好做往下看"},{"start":603.086,"end":632.536,"text":"因為以前是這樣雇傭關係就是有農會來譬如說請了移工然後呢他接受調派到有需要的農戶這個是合可的但是因為農業有它什麼有它的間歇性有它的區域性我們這區在收紅萊大家都在收紅萊 收不到工啦紅萊收完工都贏了啦所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼我不可能請一年三百六十工每工有四頭蝴蝶啦所以我就要怎樣 往下看"},{"start":633.581,"end":657.208,"text":"再往下看 往回往回往回看 再往回再往回往上往上往上往上往上好 這個情況就是這樣子農業有它的零工性季節性小規模地點分散所以農會請來的農業移工這個外展的服務他變成要在跨區域去調度"},{"start":658.268,"end":685.295,"text":"因為我們的農作收成是輪趨的嘛所以說呢 那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後他們就變成什麼 遊牧民族哪裡在採茶葉 我就到南投哪裡在幹嘛 我就在幹嘛那這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工工廠外勞 工廠移工逃逸失聯之後他們很多就進入這樣的一個市場但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎"},{"start":687.662,"end":710.561,"text":"我如果說大工手啦 吃土雞睡土雞啦包大隻啦 對吧 有速食嘛但是我一旦成為游牧民族我這樣的移工 我變成要躲躲藏藏而且呢住公寮住哪裡 整批整批的暗中移動整個的生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定那部長請問一下 那為什麼移工要做這個事"},{"start":712.049,"end":727.006,"text":"為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事跟委員說明第一個我自己認為這裡面主要是救福法的原本管制框架啦至於剛剛在講到說相關的這些爭議或者是這些實務上面的部分我覺得那部分"},{"start":728.287,"end":752.266,"text":"我自己認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間 是那但是主要其實現在還是在救護法的一個單一雇主的這個框架 是的所以我就說整個問題要如在勞動部不要不食人間煙火我剛剛講那些移工他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活因為他要賺錢啊他要賺錢 他要多賺點錢嘛你知道現在移工如果在外面做農活一天多少錢嗎"},{"start":754.349,"end":778.004,"text":"一天多少錢嗎 其實蠻多的兩千去調啦三千的也有啦 看什麼洗頭啦你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點可以多掙錢啊 它有時候一次做兩份耶我跟你講一個情況啦五點聽到沒工 我們有在漆鼻的 去挖鼻囊因為鼻子產卵了之後 你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來五點多弄完之後 七點"},{"start":779.348,"end":787.646,"text":"農家給他吃點早餐他回去工廠換個服裝8點去上工做到了5點來又到另外一家去幫忙他為了什麼賺錢"},{"start":789.6,"end":817.895,"text":"那個文我直接回答我自己覺得在剛剛的這個委員提到的案例裡面讓我們再思考一下我告訴你農業部都幫你想好了第一他強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠他的減班休息的移工要同意後他才能給這個農戶來使用那農戶跟這個移工有這樣的勞僱關係原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係"},{"start":818.795,"end":840.488,"text":"他不用逃逸 他不用失聯 為什麼 因為他一樣有賺到錢他如果今天減班休息太久了 他就不會長而且呢 這個老公來講 一樣回去怎麼樣 工廠包大隻工廠包吃住 那這個工廠吃住的時候誰會貼他錢他會貼他錢嘛 我好像說把你的工請來我這裡做三工五工他回去睡你工廠 我會貼你嗎 我當然也貼你"},{"start":845.894,"end":860.154,"text":"所以說這個時候呢原僱主加農業僱主對這個移工來講他反而是安定他的情況不會逃逸 不會失聯 往下看所以說農業部的這個新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣"},{"start":861.462,"end":884.857,"text":"有沒有什麼不一樣就是維持一個原來工廠僱主的勞僱關係還有農業部還很貼心喔他說這個時候這些農務啊 務農的外移工啊 安吶把他投農業職業災害保險為什麼因為原來我們的勞保工廠的老闆有幫他保對不對可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活那萬一出了事我們職災賠不賠"},{"start":888.931,"end":902.271,"text":"職災賠不賠不賠嘛對不對所以既然職災不賠我們就要求你農業部門既然是種農活就幫你加入農業的職災保險可以嗎趕快回答一下可不可以"},{"start":903.479,"end":931.101,"text":"那個委員 這個部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦對 因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分我們要再檢視一下這部分我今天非常感謝我們在這個未還我們主席的允許我在議員會沒辦法講得這麼深入今天我就要講給大家聽不是只有講給勞動部聽可能我們在我們那個地方大家都知道我講的實況就是誰不知道就是勞動部不知道就是勞發署不知道"},{"start":932.219,"end":948.238,"text":"就是不曉得目前你們不要說蒙著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去他在靠什麼維生就是我們農業缺乏的移工這些移工有沒有搶了我們台灣勞工的工作沒有"},{"start":948.973,"end":962.45,"text":"可是對我們農業很大的幫忙所以我在這裡說因為我也不是說要常態化現在因為我們講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息我們希望台灣人的工作老闆幫他優先保住"},{"start":963.499,"end":990.712,"text":"但是這些移工竟然搶你可能 美女就恢復了啊我們當然希望趕快訂單回來啊我會把它遣散 我不會嘛我希望這些移工的 繼續在我的工廠欸 申請移工不簡單欸那既然這樣子 有人計票出兵 有欠工的他去幫倒卡車 多少兩三千賺一下對不對 都有給他保險啊回來就大工廠 能夠好管理有什麼不好 署長請告訴我什麼不好"},{"start":992.247,"end":1013.198,"text":"老闆署署長請說你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見這樣的意見我剛剛我都昨天才收到我還沒有找部長理論啊我今天要問署長你們剛剛回答我那個昨天才10月8號才回答這些順便答覆你們有給部長看過嗎請老闆署回答請老闆署回答"},{"start":1018.56,"end":1033.956,"text":"是 鮑委員 我們有一程序成合那是不是 有沒有給部長看過嗎可能 我要回去看一下有沒有給部長看過不要陷部長於不義這個事情我跟部長次長都溝通過你們給這種答案"},{"start":1035.479,"end":1056.389,"text":"講了一些空空的問題 什麼爭議什麼失誤就是救福法有這樣的規定所以農業部也說在法律沒有鬆綁之前他能做這樣的架構我們有說這特別條例當中特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下讓這個部分適度的納入規範可不可以"},{"start":1056.929,"end":1075.821,"text":"部長回去研究一下可不可以我們回去再把相關的法規的釋法性我們再檢視一下一個月內再給委員一個答案我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在你們還拿不出辦法那部長就要負責了我們來檢視一下 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。好像我是第一次在衛環委員會跟您做請教，我想大家談了很多的減班休息，我跟你講一些我們在鄉村地區的一些觀察，我常常去吃一家肉圓，這個肉圓的老闆已經做幾十年了，之前有一段時間，我就看到一個年輕人，我問年輕人是誰，他回答是他的兒子，我又問他怎麼在這裡，他回答他兒子退伍了，正在找工作，暫時沒有事情，所以到他這邊幫忙，我說很好，詢問他是否需要幫忙介紹，他回答：好啊！委員如果要幫我們介紹工作，很歡迎啊！過一陣子就發現他兒子沒有來幫忙了，詢問他兒子的狀況，原來是到工廠工作了，不錯啊！但是偶爾我晚一點去，他兒子回來還是會習慣性的幫忙收桌子，後來一段時間都沒有看到他兒子，我問老闆怎麼都沒看到他兒子？他說現在工廠生意很好，在加班，加班賺錢比較重要。又過一陣子，拿個帖子給我，娶媳婦了，後來是他媳婦在幫忙做小攤吃的生意。但是現在有一個情況出現了，結果現在因為減班休息，他沒有加班了，可是沒有加班，我說現在怎麼有時候有看到他兒子，但是他沒有來幫忙？他說沒辦法，現在沒加班，要再到外面去賺錢，有時候我早上去，他兒子睡眼惺忪出來，為什麼？因為今天工廠休息，但是前天晚上他幫人家送貨、送瓦斯。我請教一下，這種小家庭，他這種員工，當工廠休息的時候，晚上去幫人家送瓦斯，這樣可以嗎？補貼家用。"],["洪部長申翰：這其實就是一些兼職的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兼職的狀況嘛！好，現在問題來了，問題是當他工廠減班休息，他沒有班可以加班的時候，他去幫忙送貨，但是現在減班會減到什麼程度？本來只是生產訂單變少，不用加班，但他另外要工作維持生計，現在工廠說不用5天了，只要3天了，多了兩天，多兩天是怎樣？在家裡孵豆芽，還是幫忙做家事，你覺得他要怎麼辦？他可不可以去找一個白天的工作做一下，因為多了兩天，在家又沒事，要賺錢嘛，可以嗎？可以多找個白天的工作幫忙一下嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然現在是可以的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是可以的嘛！好，那換成你是老闆，我也問過工廠的老闆說：你們工廠有請外勞嗎？他說：有啊，有請外勞。現在呢？現在訂單比較少，我們是種蘭花的，就先讓外勞休息。我問：為什麼？他說：我先要照顧自己人，要讓臺灣人繼續上班，現在如果訂單比較少，蘭花的部分，我就叫外勞先休息。我問：外勞休息時都在做什麼？他說：你真的要知道嗎？我們鄉下隔壁鄰居等等有缺人的，做農的、做工作的，他就去幫忙。這樣可以嗎？不然你要叫臺灣老闆讓他們減班休息，讓外勞繼續做，然後臺灣勞工去休息、去外面兼差嗎？哪一種比較好？你覺得站在老闆的立場，哪一種比較善待員工？"],["洪部長申翰：當然減班休息不是大家很樂意遇到的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！如果你是臺灣老闆，你會怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：可能不同的工廠會有不同的作法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊，但是我覺得我們鄉下人看到這種老闆會覺得很貼心，他們是本來外銷蘭花的，現在蘭花受到衝擊，訂單變少了，他想要臺灣人繼續做，外勞就讓他多一些時間去幫街坊鄰居做事，讓他有一些收入。好，現在我要問了，你說減班休息七千多人，當中有沒有包含移工？"],["洪部長申翰：現在總體的數字是8,505人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有包括移工？"],["洪部長申翰：這裡面有包括移工。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有包括移工嘛！移工一樣受到我們政府的照顧，移工可不可以申請減班休息這些相關的救助？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：移工完全不行，那問題就來了，所以臺灣老闆就說讓移工自謀生路，什麼方式？我們現在農業很缺勞工，我上次已經講過了，農業缺工是常態，過去農業部也申請過農業移工，但是臺灣人而言，像過去的中小企業、中小工廠，如果家裡有種田的，當工廠事情變少時，他就會回家去幫忙。但是現在臺灣的勞工，你叫他工廠休息時去幫忙農活，坦白說真的做不來啦！所以誰會做？移工在做啦！","所以我們那時候說，原來的全職轉廠和異地兼差，如果現在我失業了，我就去找工作；但如果我是休息，我就去幫忙做家裡的工作，我家有種田的，我就幫忙收成鳳梨或是種一些東西，這種情況很普遍，我們鄉下有一種人叫做「貿頭」，「貿頭」是什麼？就是工頭，「貿頭」在做什麼工作？有時候我們辦桌的時候，有很多端菜的人，你知不知道端菜？端菜不可能是全職，因為辦桌是有一陣沒一陣，所以端菜都是「貿頭」去叫的，他有固定的樁腳，現在總舖師要在哪裡辦幾桌，辦58桌、辦38桌，他就有固定的樁腳可以去招。","所以為什麼農業移工是這樣子？我們災後的農業還是繼續缺工，而工廠裡面的廠工有工作的需求，既然有需求、有方法，我們就來執行，所以農業部就提出了一個「製造業移工支援農業兼職運用架構」，請問勞動部有沒有看過這份？"],["洪部長申翰：我還沒看到這份。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒看到這份？我8月25日在院會提出質詢，那時候農業部已經幫我擬了這個辦法，我今天提供給您，因為在你們還沒有看過這辦法之前，勞動部給我一個回復，因為我是8月25日提出來的，勞動部昨天馬上就告訴我：「現行依法未開放移工跨業別支援」、「且有……等多項法律適用之實務問題，易衍生爭議與違法風險」。好，請告訴我，具體來講，依法才能開放，本國勞工沒工作可以做，他下班之後去兼差、去送瓦斯、去開車送貨，可以嘛？但移工來不能申請，請告訴我有哪些適用的問題？有哪些爭議、哪些違法？請告訴我。署長，趕快！你們的答復可能部長還沒有看過。"],["黃署長齡玉：報告委員，基本上移工的開放，當時候的移工政策是希望……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你告訴我哪些法律不可以？有哪些風險、哪些爭議？"],["黃署長齡玉：目前就服法有明定，移工只能有單一雇主，他沒有辦法……"],["鍾委員佳濱：法律規定要單一雇主嘛，對不對？"],["黃署長齡玉：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你告訴我，除法律規定之外，有哪些爭議、有哪些違法？先不講違法，有哪些爭議、哪些實務的問題？除了法律的規定之外，有沒有遇到什麼實際的狀況是沒辦法解決的，你能不能告訴我幾樣？"],["黃署長齡玉：跟委員說明，因為當時移工政策開放的設計……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是問你當時，我是問你現在啦！"],["黃署長齡玉：是，它的設計是不能影響國人就業機會，所以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我剛剛就講了嘛，老闆說，就是為了不影響國人就業，所以我減班休息，先讓外勞休息嘛！移工休息了，他有什麼樣的爭議跟違法？事實上就存在了嘛！現在很多工廠休息的移工，旁邊的人都搶著要，都希望他可以來幫忙一下，這可不可以？"],["黃署長齡玉：我們沒有辦法讓他從事許可以外的工作，這是為了要確保國人的就業權益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你還是老話嘛！我說有哪些爭議、有哪些實務的困難？除了你剛剛講的那些之外，他去幫忙農忙，影響到誰的就業？你告訴我影響到誰的就業？現在的廠工哪些人休息之後還會去幫忙農活的？你們告訴我幾個。"],["黃署長齡玉：委員，是這樣子……"],["鍾委員佳濱：幫忙農活有影響到本國勞工的就業嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：我們現在對農業移工其實是開放的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道是開放……"],["黃署長齡玉：只是有農業移工，也有外展移工……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好啦！我告訴你為什麼有問題。這是非常態減班，不是等於全面開放移工跨業別，我只有說幫忙做農活，沒有說讓他兼兩個工作以上。現在農業部提出架構的時候，他也很清楚，他就講了，以就服法等相關勞動法規鬆綁前提之下，他提出了這個案子，他也知道你們的就服法有規定，但是你看，現在「外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格及審查標準」當中規定有外展農務工作嘛！所以移工是可以來做務農的嘛！"],["黃署長齡玉：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是開放嘛！但是為什麼農業的移工不好做？因為以前是這樣的僱用關係，譬如說由農會請了移工，他接受調派到有需要的農戶，這個是核可的。但是因為農業有間歇性、有區域性，當我們這區在收成鳳梨時，大家也都在收成鳳梨，搶不到工啦！等鳳梨收成了以後，工都很閒啦！所以請農業移工最大的麻煩是什麼？我不可能請一年365天，每天都有工作給他做，所以我就要怎樣？像這個情況就是這樣子，農業有零工性、季節性、小規模、地點分散的特性，所以農會請來的農業移工，這個外展的服務變成要在跨區域去調度，因為我們的農作收成是輪區的，所以那些失聯的移工轉入地下之後，他們就變成游牧民族，南投在採茶葉，我就到南投；哪裡在幹嘛，我就在幹嘛，這樣的流動事實上就是所謂的地下黑工。工廠移工失聯之後，他們很多就進入這樣的市場，但是這樣的移工生活好過嗎？如果他們在工廠，是吃老闆的、睡老闆的，不但含吃，還有宿舍；但是他一旦成為游牧民族，他這樣的移工變成要躲躲藏藏，而且住工寮、住哪裡，整批、整批的暗中移動，整個生活型態真的比不上在工廠那麼安定。請問部長，為什麼移工要做這個事？為什麼要離開工廠去做這個事？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我自己認為這裡面主要是就服法的原本管制框架，至於剛剛講到相關的爭議或者是實務上面的部分，我認為不是不能夠有其他思考的空間，但是主要現在還是在就服法的單一雇主的框架裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我就說整個問題就在勞動部，你們不要不食人間煙火，我剛剛講的那些移工，他為什麼要忍受這樣的生活？因為他要賺錢，他要多賺點錢嘛！你知道現在移工在外面做農活，一天是多少錢嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其實滿多的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩千起跳，三千的也有，看什麼工作啦！你覺得這個比在工廠有沒有好一點？可以多掙錢啊，他有時候一次做兩份，我跟你講一個情況，5點天還沒亮，有在養鱉的去挖鱉的卵，因為鱉產卵了之後，你一定要在太陽出來之前就把它挖出來，5點多弄完之後，7點農家給他吃點早餐，他回去工廠換個服裝，8點去上工，做到了5點又到另外一家去幫忙，他為了什麼？賺錢。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我直接回答，我自己覺得在剛才委員提到的案例裡面，讓我們再思考一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你，農業部都幫你想好了，第一，它強調一定要經過農會輔導雙邊雇主簽立勞僱契約，這些受關稅影響衝擊的工廠，它減班休息的移工要同意後，他才能給農戶來使用，農戶和移工有這樣的勞僱關係，原來的移工跟原來的雇主還是維持勞僱關係，他不用逃逸、他不用失聯，為什麼？因為他一樣有賺到錢，他如果今天減班休息太久了，他就不待了，而且對這個勞工來講，一樣回去工廠包吃住，工廠包吃住！而工廠的吃住是誰會補給他錢？他會補給他錢嘛！如果我把你的工人請來我這裡做3天、5天，他回去睡你的工廠，我會補貼你嗎？我當然會補貼你，所以這個時候原雇主加農業雇主對這個移工來講，反而是安定他的情況，不會逃逸、不會失聯，所以農業部的新草案跟原來的外展農務有沒有什麼不一樣？就是維持一個原來工廠雇主的勞僱關係。還有農業部很貼心，它說這個時候幫這些務農的移工投保農業職業災害保險，為什麼？因為原來我們工廠的老闆有幫他保勞保，對不對？可是他現在的工作不是做工廠的活，萬一出了事，我們的職災賠不賠？職災賠不賠？不賠嘛！對不對？所以既然職災不賠，我們就要求農業部門，既然是種農活，就幫你加入農業職災保險，可以嗎？趕快回答一下可不可以？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分讓我們回去再思考一下啦，因為這裡面會有一些法規適用的部分，我們要再檢視一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我今天非常感謝衛環主席的允許，我在院會沒辦法講得這麼深入，今天我就是要講給大家聽，不是只有講給勞動部聽，可能在我們那個地方，大家都知道我講的實況，就是誰不知道？就是勞動部不知道、就是勞發署不知道，就是不曉得目前……你們不要說矇著眼睛沒有看到這些失聯的移工、工廠跑掉的移工跑到哪裡去，他在靠什麼維生？就是我們農業缺乏的移工，這些移工有沒有搶了我們臺灣勞工的工作？沒有，可是對我們農業有很大的幫忙，所以我在這裡也不是說要常態化，因為我們現在講的是因應關稅衝擊減班休息，我們希望臺灣人的工作由老闆幫他優先保住，但是這些移工既然請了，可能明年就恢復了，我們當然希望訂單趕快回來啊，我會不會把他遣散？我不會嘛！我希望這些移工繼續在我的工廠。申請移工不簡單，既然這樣子，隔壁鄰居有缺工的，他去幫忙，多少賺個兩、三千，對不對？還有加保險，回來就住工廠方便管理，有什麼不好？署長請告訴我有什麼不好？勞發署署長請說，你們在勞動部給首長這樣的意見，我昨天才收到，我還沒有找部長理論啦，我現在問署長，你們剛剛回答我那部分，昨天10月8號才回答這些書面答復，你們有給部長看過嗎？請勞發署回答、請勞發署回答。"],["黃署長齡玉：是，報告委員，我們有依程序陳核，是不是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有給部長看過嗎？"],["黃署長齡玉：可能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有？"],["黃署長齡玉：我要回去看一下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有給部長看過？不要陷部長於不義，這個事情我跟部長、次長都溝通過，你們給這種答案，講了一些空泛的問題，什麼爭議、什麼實務？就是就服法有這樣的規定，所以農業部也說在法令沒有鬆綁之前，只能走這樣的架構，我們有說這是特別條例當中，特別條例有沒有允許勞動部可以在這樣的特別條例架構之下，讓這個部分適度的納入規範？可不可以？部長，回去研究一下可不可以。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們回去再把相關法令法規的適法性，我們再檢視一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月內。"],["洪部長申翰：再給委員一個答案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我當然希望一個月內就沒有減班休息了，但是如果一個月後減班休息仍然存在，你們還拿不出辦法，部長就要負責了，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：我們來檢視一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員發言。的確我們中南部尤其是南投，還有在梨山農業季的時候，非常多這樣相關的問題。","再來請林淑芬委員發言。宣告：待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}