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\"我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 243.936, \"end\": 244.036, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 244.036, \"end\": 244.196, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 244.196, \"end\": 244.396, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 244.396, \"end\": 244.556, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 244.556, \"end\": 245.437, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 245.437, \"end\": 245.617, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 245.617, \"end\": 245.957, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 245.957, \"end\": 245.977, \"score\": 0.258}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 245.977, \"end\": 247.177, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 247.177, \"end\": 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00:00:07,413\n我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答\n\n2\n00:00:30,489 --> 00:00:33,814\n好謝謝主席那我想先請全序部謝謝\n\n3\n00:00:40,543 --> 00:01:08,935\n委員長好部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到\n\n4\n00:01:09,395 --> 00:01:29,552\n不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個\n\n5\n00:01:30,333 --> 00:01:57,491\n那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同\n\n6\n00:01:58,492 --> 00:02:00,477\n這是我簡單的推論以上我的推論是正確的嗎\n\n7\n00:02:02,885 --> 00:02:28,760\n謝謝委員是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜是不是我把事情講清楚好我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明謝謝\n\n8\n00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:53,860\n因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會就絕對不會倒\n\n9\n00:02:57,608 --> 00:03:19,188\n那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制\n\n10\n00:03:20,134 --> 00:03:39,370\n就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早\n\n11\n00:03:40,629 --> 00:04:01,524\n那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年\n\n12\n00:04:03,936 --> 00:04:31,106\n我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年\n\n13\n00:04:32,403 --> 00:04:56,237\n就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間\n\n14\n00:04:57,847 --> 00:05:23,451\n那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的\n\n15\n00:05:24,192 --> 00:05:38,914\n好部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情\n\n16\n00:05:39,375 --> 00:06:02,003\n歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢\n\n17\n00:06:03,223 --> 00:06:24,136\n那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡\n\n18\n00:06:24,696 --> 00:06:35,471\n那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題\n\n19\n00:06:37,062 --> 00:06:57,989\n好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎\n\n20\n00:06:59,664 --> 00:07:15,176\n我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是\n\n21\n00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:41,097\n那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人\n\n22\n00:07:41,457 --> 00:08:01,187\n都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍\n\n23\n00:08:01,707 --> 00:08:21,056\n好我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的\n\n24\n00:08:21,776 --> 00:08:48,804\n我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境\n\n25\n00:08:49,225 --> 00:08:51,883\n那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎\n\n26\n00:08:54,715 --> 00:09:21,875\n就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題\n\n27\n00:09:23,038 --> 00:09:48,004\n我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張\n\n28\n00:09:49,384 --> 00:10:03,475\n這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員\n\n29\n00:10:05,122 --> 00:10:34,194\n當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意\n\n30\n00:10:35,735 --> 00:10:59,719\n這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n69\t7413\t我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答\n30489\t33814\t好 謝謝主席那我想先請全序部 謝謝\n40543\t68935\t委員長好 部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧 沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到\n69395\t89552\t不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個\n90333\t117491\t那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同\n118492\t120477\t這是我簡單的推論 以上我的推論是正確的嗎\n122885\t148760\t謝謝委員 是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜 是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說 我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論 針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看 他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝\n149520\t173860\t因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒\n177608\t199188\t那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制\n200134\t219370\t就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早\n220629\t241524\t那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年\n243936\t271106\t我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年\n272403\t296237\t就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間\n297847\t323451\t那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的\n324192\t338914\t好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情\n339375\t362003\t歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢\n363223\t384136\t那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡\n384696\t395471\t那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題\n397062\t417989\t好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎\n419664\t435176\t我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是\n435876\t461097\t那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人\n461457\t481187\t都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到 各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍\n481707\t501056\t好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的\n501776\t528804\t我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境\n529225\t531883\t那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎\n534715\t561875\t就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題\n563038\t588004\t我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張\n589384\t603475\t這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員\n605122\t634194\t當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意\n635735\t659719\t這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員\n","txt":"我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答\n好 謝謝主席那我想先請全序部 謝謝\n委員長好 部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧 沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到\n不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個\n那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同\n這是我簡單的推論 以上我的推論是正確的嗎\n謝謝委員 是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜 是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說 我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論 針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看 他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝\n因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒\n那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制\n就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早\n那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年\n我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年\n就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間\n那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的\n好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情\n歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢\n那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡\n那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題\n好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎\n我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是\n那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人\n都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到 各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍\n好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的\n我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境\n那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎\n就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題\n我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張\n這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員\n當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意\n這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.069 --> 00:07.413\n我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答\n\n00:30.489 --> 00:33.814\n好謝謝主席那我想先請全序部謝謝\n\n00:40.543 --> 01:08.935\n委員長好部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到\n\n01:09.395 --> 01:29.552\n不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個\n\n01:30.333 --> 01:57.491\n那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同\n\n01:58.492 --> 02:00.477\n這是我簡單的推論以上我的推論是正確的嗎\n\n02:02.885 --> 02:28.760\n謝謝委員是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜是不是我把事情講清楚好我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明謝謝\n\n02:29.520 --> 02:53.860\n因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會就絕對不會倒\n\n02:57.608 --> 03:19.188\n那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制\n\n03:20.134 --> 03:39.370\n就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早\n\n03:40.629 --> 04:01.524\n那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年\n\n04:03.936 --> 04:31.106\n我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年\n\n04:32.403 --> 04:56.237\n就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間\n\n04:57.847 --> 05:23.451\n那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的\n\n05:24.192 --> 05:38.914\n好部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情\n\n05:39.375 --> 06:02.003\n歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢\n\n06:03.223 --> 06:24.136\n那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡\n\n06:24.696 --> 06:35.471\n那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題\n\n06:37.062 --> 06:57.989\n好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎\n\n06:59.664 --> 07:15.176\n我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是\n\n07:15.876 --> 07:41.097\n那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人\n\n07:41.457 --> 08:01.187\n都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍\n\n08:01.707 --> 08:21.056\n好我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的\n\n08:21.776 --> 08:48.804\n我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境\n\n08:49.225 --> 08:51.883\n那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎\n\n08:54.715 --> 09:21.875\n就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題\n\n09:23.038 --> 09:48.004\n我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張\n\n09:49.384 --> 10:03.475\n這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員\n\n10:05.122 --> 10:34.194\n當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意\n\n10:35.735 --> 10:59.719\n這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陳委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.069,"end":7.413,"text":"我們就在詢答完畢之後先休息五分鐘然後緊接著再請羅委員詢答"},{"start":30.489,"end":33.814,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我想先請全序部 謝謝"},{"start":40.543,"end":68.935,"text":"委員長好 部長早我想就跟著剛剛吳斯亞委員所質詢的這個關於年金的部分我們就往下來談喔非常的巧 沒有套好招但問了問題關心的議題是一樣的那我想剛剛斯亞委員已經有很多呼籲了我們就直接來談實質的問題我們想問一下關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團他們提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會我相信你們在收集與請相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到"},{"start":69.395,"end":89.552,"text":"不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算假設用相關他們的修法辦法或者是論述我們可能會發生什麼情況我是一個比較務實的人我想直接來問一個問題我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說他們可能會擔心以後他們會不會領不到如果用這個算法這是第一個"},{"start":90.333,"end":117.491,"text":"那我們如果又來分入職1到5年入職5到10年入職10到15年15到20年往下再往後推這個是已經入職的公務人員來說接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員他又分剛剛退休退休5到10年退休15到20年10到15年每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題但是他們的處境是大不相同"},{"start":118.492,"end":120.477,"text":"這是我簡單的推論 以上我的推論是正確的嗎"},{"start":122.885,"end":148.76,"text":"謝謝委員 是不是讓我有一點點因為這有點複雜 是不是我把事情講清楚好 我認為確實需要講清楚因為我先說 我們就一般人的角度來看絕對他不是一個可以大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態所以為什麼我們一直呼籲要實質討論好好的討論 針對我剛剛說的光是用年資來看 他就遇到很多的困境我想就讓部長先說明 謝謝"},{"start":149.52,"end":173.86,"text":"因為全局部主管這個退伏基金那我們最重要的責任就是讓退伏基金能夠永續經營所以我們定期會有精算報告最近一次的精算報告在第九次在114年4月完成第九次精算報告就把這個基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明我先講第一個scenario就是說如果現在政府根據精算報告政府現在可以給基金2.96兆這個基金都不會 就絕對不會倒"},{"start":177.608,"end":199.188,"text":"那是不可能嘛所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施大概可以讓他在138年公務人員138年就歸零 基金歸零歸零的意思是說後面還有人是沒有錢的我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛那接下來因為我們實施了新制"},{"start":200.134,"end":219.37,"text":"就是112年新的公務同仁進來新制那個缺口就要補給這個基金如果沒有補給基金那公務人員這個部分會在134年就歸零我想是這樣一個機制這樣往下來那教育人員會歸零的那個年代會更早"},{"start":220.629,"end":241.524,"text":"那當然如果再停止調降那一定會把那個本來134年的那個再往前嘛那就看停止調降現在有一些提案最早的提案是在112年就停止當然這個討論的過程裡面是不是要停止調降這是大院會處理的事情如果真的再停止調降是在112年那歸零的時間點就會拉到130年"},{"start":243.936,"end":271.106,"text":"我想我只把這時間點做一個說明那這個我舉134年好了就新知識134年距離現在剛好20年那距離20年意思是什麼意思就是說只要你現在換算成你現在如果是在政府部門可能是幾歲以的人那因為20年以後你就達到65歲了你剛好那一年"},{"start":272.403,"end":296.237,"text":"就可能歸零了我想所以它的影響層面一定會影響不是只有縣市人員而是包括已經退休人基金在支領可是當歸零年代出現的時候因為基金就用慶了用慶以後你不會說那時候就不領了後面就是很長的時間"},{"start":297.847,"end":323.451,"text":"那一段時間那個財源要從哪裡來所以我跟委員報告意思就是說所以部裡面對這個部分會一直認為就是說對我們來講是基金永續經營是最重要因為我們的責任能讓所有參加這個基金的人不管是現職人員或是已退人員他能夠領到退休金那我想這是最重要的一個說明所以影響層面其實是蠻大的"},{"start":324.192,"end":338.914,"text":"好 部長那我可以這樣問嗎如果按照您剛剛的說法本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零但是如果按照這個現在可能在黨團的說法可能130年就歸零我們用一般人的角度來想歸零後會發生什麼事情"},{"start":339.375,"end":362.003,"text":"歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了答案就是沒有錢嘛 領不到錢然後你剛剛給我一個數學題你說我們用20年來推算假設他65歲那一年要退休那也就是他現在45歲左右45到50歲左右他可能要65歲要退休那剛好就是我這個年紀所以到我要退休的時候我在公務機關服務到我要退休的時候那一年剛好就領不到錢"},{"start":363.223,"end":384.136,"text":"那國家要怎麼對待我國家要怎麼協助我我想這個就是一個對我們來講就是當我們在討論這些問題的時候我們全區部一直呼籲大家要也要把後面這個問題正視而不是只有談年改因為年改當初做年改就是說把它延後到138年用盡那後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡"},{"start":384.696,"end":395.471,"text":"那後面這個大洞怎麼辦我想這就是要靠社會的共識看怎麼樣去找到一個適合的一個裁員來處理這個事情我只在想是說這是一個很嚴肅的一個課題"},{"start":397.062,"end":417.989,"text":"好所以大概剛剛部長您的回答把我今天的問題大概都回答完所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇其實有很多基層的公務員告訴我們像他們可能是採用84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的限職公務人員他們不是用個人專戶制對不對那如果按照你的算法他們也會領不到嗎"},{"start":419.664,"end":435.176,"text":"我的意思就回過頭來就像以我自己的意思來講對 我就想問你謝謝部長我也是這個當事人之一那我今年應該是所有我也可以透露我年齡我今年應該如果我是當任公務人員我今年就是借齡退休的人是"},{"start":435.876,"end":461.097,"text":"那以我們平均餘命來講差不多啦我剛好開始退休然後也許以我們我印象中我們平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下所以差不多就是134年啦那我的意思是說用這樣去算的話就是我可能還很幸運你可能還很幸運你可能可能對但是其他人就未必如果即使包括已經退休的人"},{"start":461.457,"end":481.187,"text":"都有可能領不到那我們往前多推一點已經早你十年退休的人你可能很幸運還可以撐在你後面就是剛剛那個祕書長更年輕才要退休你可能就領不到就是後面用慶歸領的時候都領不到 各位你們都領不到用慶歸領的時候那是一個大的一個古龍"},{"start":481.707,"end":501.056,"text":"好 我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員也不是只有主席喔所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚我覺得就是會領不到你剛剛說得非常客氣叫歸零那我的話就叫領不到那我覺得這真的是一個非常非常嚴肅的課題喔甚至它可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的"},{"start":501.776,"end":528.804,"text":"我們如何真的實質的計算並且看待這個世代的風險我覺得這才是接下來接下來在我們司法法事委員會甚至是所有委員會所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情也謝謝部長剛這麼清楚的說明我想我們所有問這些事情都是希望所有的公務人員在這個基金永續的前提底下我們真的可以做到那當然剛剛如同部長所說的可能還有新的那個困境就是138年以後那個困境"},{"start":529.225,"end":531.883,"text":"那個你們目前有任何的演繹的對策或者是想法嗎"},{"start":534.715,"end":561.875,"text":"就是當基金歸零以後那個很大的一個議題其實我剛才在答覆前面我也提到整個國家碰到的問題還有勞保也同樣碰到這個問題是還有勞保還有這個退伏基金也同樣碰到這個問題所以我才說這是一個我覺得還都現在距離勞保當然更早了那現在距離差不多20年左右的一個時間這個社會應該現在要大家努力尋求共識看怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":563.038,"end":588.004,"text":"我想各位在場非常聰明有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲應該是大家一起來努力解決後續我們本來應該會問到的問題遇到的問題而不是現在我們想要主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情你們認為要cover過來我認為這是反改革我想我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革還有最後一分鐘有一個題目我們直接按到最後一張"},{"start":589.384,"end":603.475,"text":"這個是翁委員之前在司法法事委員會有大力呼籲的那也謝謝翁委員當時願意讓他們改成附帶決議那他們就做了調整這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下你們後續做了調整跟對於現場的制度的放寬可以怎麼更友善公務員"},{"start":605.122,"end":634.194,"text":"當初也謝謝文委員還有社會保護社會委員在討論的時候我們透過修改這個遺孕留庭辦法的一個方式我們本來只限制譬如像說如果你要養育孫子女就一定要父母或者是祖母只能一方可以我們就把後面的單數拿掉我想這就同時讓只要雙方家庭任何祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話我們都同意"},{"start":635.735,"end":659.719,"text":"這個已經通過應該是今天就是現在應該考試院院會應該通過了就是今天早上但我還是要說謝謝翁委員當時的善意讓你們用附帶決議的方法那你們也已經公告實行對不對考試院院會應該會通過然後送請這個行政院會選好 謝謝我想在所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣我們讓所有政策跟制度可以更往前但謝謝翁委員謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":955,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時19分）謝謝主席，我想先請銓敘部，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長早。我想跟著剛剛吳思瑤委員所質詢關於年金的部分，我們就往下來談，非常的巧，沒有套好招，但問的問題、關心的議題是一樣的。我想剛剛思瑤委員已經有很多呼籲了，我們就直接來談實質的問題，我們想問一下，關於國民黨團或者是相關在野黨團所提出的修法呼籲跟可能召開的公聽會，我相信你們在蒐集輿情、相關新聞的時候應該都有注意到，不知道你們有沒有開始進行試算，假設用他們相關的修法辦法或者是論述可能會發生什麼情況？我是一個比較務實的人，我想直接來問一個問題，我覺得對於很多剛剛入職的年輕公務員來說，他們可能會擔心如果用這個算法，以後會不會領不到，這是第一個；如果又分入職1到5年、入職5到10年、入職10到15年、15到20年，往下再往後推，這個是對已經入職的公務人員來說。接下來我要問的是已經退休的公務員，又分剛剛退休、退休5到10年、退休10到15年、15到20年，每一個階段的人可能都要面臨這個問題，但是他們的處境是大不相同，這是我簡單的推論，以上我的推論是正確的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員，是不是讓我有一點點時間說明？因為這有點複雜，是不是我把事情講清楚？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我認為確實須要講清楚，我先說，因為就一般人的角度來看，絕對不能夠大範圍框起來說退休人員通通是同一種樣態，所以為什麼一直呼籲要實質討論、好好地討論，針對我剛剛說的，光是用年資來看就遇到很多的困境，我想就讓部長先說明，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：因為銓敘部主管退撫基金，我們最重要的責任就是讓退撫基金能夠永續經營，所以我們定期會有精算報告，最近一次的精算報告是在114年4月完成第9次精算報告，就把基金的財務狀況做了一個很清楚的說明，我先講第一個scenario，根據精算報告，如果政府現在可以給基金2.96兆，這個基金絕對不會倒，但是不可能嘛！所以接下來年改不斷嘗試做這種措施，大概可以讓它在138年……公務人員的基金在138年就歸零，歸零的意思是後面還有人是沒有錢的，我們不會只有在138年就結束嘛！接下來，因為實施了新制，即112年新的公務同仁進來的新制，那個缺口就要補給這個基金，如果沒有補給基金，公務人員的這個部分會在134年就歸零，我想是這樣一個機制；而教育人員的部分，歸零的年代會更早，當然如果再停止調降，一定會讓本來預估的134年再往前嘛！就看停止調降的時間點，現在有些提案，而提案最早停止調降的年度是112年，當然是不是要停止調降是大院會去處理的事情，如果真的在112年停止調降，歸零的時間點就會拉到130年，我想我只是把這個時間點做一個說明。我舉134年好了，就新制而言，134年距離現在剛好20年，距離20年的意思是什麼？意思就是換算成現在在政府部門，在20年後達到65歲的人，剛好那一年就歸零了。所以它的影響層面會影響到的不是只有現職人員，而是包括已經退休的人，即使你已經在支領，可是當歸零年代出現的時候，因為基金用罄，用罄以後也不會說就不領了，所以後面很長的時間，那一段時間的財源要從哪裡來？","所以我跟委員報告的意思是，部裡面對這個部分會一直認為，對我們來講基金的永續經營最重要，因為我們的責任是讓所有參加基金的人，不管是現職人員或是已退人員，都能夠領到退休金，我想這是最重要的，因為影響層面其實是滿大的。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我可以這樣問嗎？如果按照您剛剛的說法，本來你們的規劃是138年或134年會歸零，但是如果按照現在在野黨黨團的說法，可能130年就歸零，用一般人的角度來想，歸零後會發生什麼事情？"],["施部長能傑：歸零以後就是基金沒有錢了。"],["陳委員培瑜：答案就是沒有錢嘛！領不到錢。然後你剛剛給我一個數學題，你說我們用20年來推算，假設他65歲那一年要退休，也就是他現在是45歲左右，45歲到50歲左右，他可能到65歲要退休，剛好就是我這個年紀，我在公務機關服務到我要退休的那一年，剛好就會領不到錢耶！這樣國家要怎麼對待我？國家要怎麼協助我？"],["施部長能傑：我想這就是為什麼我們在討論這些問題的時候，銓敘部一直呼籲大家也要正視後面的問題，而不是只有談年改，因為當初做年改就是把它延後到138年用罄，後面還是有一個大的洞在那裡。"],["陳委員培瑜：後面那個大洞怎麼辦？"],["施部長能傑：我想這就是要靠社會的共識怎麼樣去找到一個適合的財源來處理事情，我只是想說這是一個很嚴肅的課題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。剛剛部長您的回答，大概把我今天的問題都回答完了，所以最後一個問題是我們也很好奇，其實也有很多基層的公務員告訴我們，他們是84年7月1號到112年6月30號正式任用的現職公務人員，他們不適用個人專戶制，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，是。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果按照你的算法，他們也會領不到嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我的意思就是回過頭來，以我自己的例子來講好了……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我就是想問你的部分，謝謝部長。"],["施部長能傑：我也是當事人之一。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，就是我說的那個期間。"],["施部長能傑：我也可以透露我年齡，如果我擔任公務人員，今年就是屆齡退休的人。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["施部長能傑：以平均餘命來講，我印象中平均餘命65歲大概可以再加20上下，所以如果我今年退休，再加上20年，差不多就是134年啦！我的意思是用這樣去算的話，我可能還很幸運，可是……"],["陳委員培瑜：你可能還很幸運，可能、可能。"],["施部長能傑：對、對，但是其他人就未必，即使包括已經退休的人……"],["陳委員培瑜：都有可能領不到。"],["施部長能傑：對、對。"],["陳委員培瑜：如果往前多推一點，已經早你10年退休的人，可能很幸運還可以撐往，在你後面的人，像是秘書長，因為他更年輕，所以退休之後可能就領不到。"],["施部長能傑：後面用罄歸零的時候，就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：都領不到、都領不到，各位，你們都領不到！"],["施部長能傑：用罄歸零的時候，那是一個大的窟窿。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我想今天在場的不是只有立法委員，也不是只有主席，所有現場的公務人員剛剛應該都聽得很清楚，我覺得就是會領不到，你剛剛說得非常客氣，叫歸零，我的話就叫領不到，我覺得這真的是一個非常、非常嚴肅的課題，甚至可能也不是一場公聽會可以解決的，我們如何實質地去計算，並且看待世代的風險，我覺得這才是接下來在司法及法制委員會，甚至是所有委員會、所有立法委員大家要認真面對的事情，也謝謝部長剛剛這麼清楚地說明，我想我們問的所有這些事情，都是希望所有的公務人員在基金永續的前提底下，我們真的可以做到。","當然，如同剛剛部長所說的，可能還有新的困境，就是138年以後的困境，你們目前有任何研議的對策或者是想法嗎？"],["施部長能傑：這是當基金歸零以後會遇到的很大的議題，其實我剛剛前面在答復吳委員時也提到，這是整個國家所碰到的問題，勞保也同樣碰到這樣的問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，還有勞保。"],["施部長能傑：退撫基金也同樣碰到這個問題，所以我才說這是一個……勞保當然會更早，現在距離差不多20年左右的時間，這個社會大家現在應該要努力尋求共識，看怎麼解決問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：我想在場各位非常聰明、有智慧的立法委員應該都聽懂了部長的呼籲，應該是大家一起來努力解決後續會遇到的問題，而不是去主張停止所得替代率逐年調降這件事情，你們認為要cover過來，我認為這是反改革，我個人的呼籲認為這是反改革。","還有最後1分鐘，有一個題目是翁委員之前在司法及法制委員會大力呼籲的，也謝謝翁委員當時願意改成附帶決議，你們就做了調整，這個部分可不可以請你們說明一下，你們後續做了調整跟對於制度的放寬，可以怎麼更友善公務員？"],["施部長能傑：當初也謝謝翁委員，司法及制委員會在討論的時候，我們透過修改育嬰留停辦法的方式，我們本來是限制，譬如說，如果要養育孫子女，就一定要由父母或者是祖父母，只能一方可以申請，我們把後面但書拿掉，雙方家庭的祖父母或者父母都有意願去照顧小孩的話，我們都同意，這個已經通過，就是今天，現在考試院院會應該通過了。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是今天早上，但我還是要謝謝翁委員當時的善意，讓你們用附帶決議的方法，你們也已經公告施行，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：今天考試院院會應該會通過，然後送請行政院會銜。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我想所有立法委員能夠做的事情就是這樣，讓所有的政策跟制度可以更往前，謝謝翁委員、謝謝部長。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時29分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席：現在休息時間結束，我們繼續開會。","請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}}