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\"end\": 1408.373, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"府\", \"start\": 1408.373, \"end\": 1408.513, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 1408.513, \"end\": 1408.693, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"聘\", \"start\": 1408.693, \"end\": 1409.134, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"僱\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1409.134, \"end\": 1409.354, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1409.354, \"end\": 1409.414, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1409.414, \"end\": 1409.554, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 1409.554, \"end\": 1409.714, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 1409.714, \"end\": 1409.854, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 1409.854, \"end\": 1409.954, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"功\", \"start\": 1409.954, \"end\": 1410.034, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1410.034, \"end\": 1410.174, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1410.174, \"end\": 1410.274, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1410.274, \"end\": 1410.335, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 1410.335, \"end\": 1410.715, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1410.715, \"end\": 1410.915, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1410.915, \"end\": 1411.275, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1411.275, \"end\": 1411.496, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 1411.496, \"end\": 1411.516, \"score\": 0.012}]}, {\"start\": 1412.216, \"end\": 1419.802, \"text\": \"我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1412.216, \"end\": 1412.456, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1412.456, \"end\": 1412.576, \"score\": 0.703}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 1412.576, \"end\": 1412.717, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1412.717, \"end\": 1412.877, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1418.161, \"end\": 1418.181, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1418.181, \"end\": 1418.201, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1418.201, \"end\": 1418.321, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 1418.321, \"end\": 1418.501, \"score\": 0.512}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1418.501, \"end\": 1418.541, \"score\": 0.448}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 1418.541, \"end\": 1418.781, \"score\": 0.656}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 1418.781, \"end\": 1418.801, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 1418.801, \"end\": 1418.961, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1418.961, \"end\": 1418.981, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1418.981, \"end\": 1419.262, \"score\": 0.523}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1419.262, \"end\": 1419.462, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 1670.989, \"end\": 1671.149, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1671.149, \"end\": 1671.229, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1671.229, \"end\": 1671.429, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1671.429, \"end\": 1671.589, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1671.589, \"end\": 1671.649, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 1671.649, \"end\": 1671.83, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 1671.83, \"end\": 1672.31, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1672.31, \"end\": 1672.75, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1672.75, \"end\": 1672.87, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 1672.87, \"end\": 1673.531, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 1673.531, \"end\": 1674.812, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 1674.812, \"end\": 1675.213, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 1675.213, \"end\": 1675.533, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1675.533, \"end\": 1675.813, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 1675.813, \"end\": 1675.953, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 1675.953, \"end\": 1677.415, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1677.415, \"end\": 1677.695, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1677.695, \"end\": 1677.875, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1677.875, \"end\": 1678.656, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"迴\"}, {\"word\": \"避\", \"start\": 1678.656, \"end\": 1678.796, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1678.796, \"end\": 1678.916, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 1678.916, \"end\": 1679.176, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1679.176, \"end\": 1679.557, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 1679.557, \"end\": 1679.837, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1679.837, \"end\": 1679.857, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,359 --> 00:00:08,201\n宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長\n\n2\n00:00:25,738 --> 00:00:47,906\n林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個\n\n3\n00:00:50,534 --> 00:01:18,981\n發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國\n\n4\n00:01:20,781 --> 00:01:37,533\n韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soulfarm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業\n\n5\n00:01:40,436 --> 00:01:56,901\n還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前對\n\n6\n00:01:57,941 --> 00:02:20,558\n那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了\n\n7\n00:02:21,118 --> 00:02:43,943\n可是在今年這個時候這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑\n\n8\n00:02:45,323 --> 00:03:07,453\n華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withholdreleaseorder要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留\n\n9\n00:03:08,153 --> 00:03:23,667\n那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢\n\n10\n00:03:26,243 --> 00:03:47,317\n我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視\n\n11\n00:03:50,279 --> 00:04:05,965\n在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法\n\n12\n00:04:08,866 --> 00:04:29,382\n包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉\n\n13\n00:04:31,784 --> 00:04:53,784\n這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個你出口轉賣退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣不要到我美國來第三個你放棄這些貨物銷毀\n\n14\n00:04:56,007 --> 00:05:13,521\n那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的\n\n15\n00:05:14,622 --> 00:05:29,269\n短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的\n\n16\n00:05:34,389 --> 00:06:01,937\n中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊\n\n17\n00:06:03,954 --> 00:06:11,644\n我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面\n\n18\n00:06:16,824 --> 00:06:44,963\n我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易\n\n19\n00:06:47,565 --> 00:07:08,304\n我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費\n\n20\n00:07:09,185 --> 00:07:36,143\n支付了賠償金改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎\n\n21\n00:07:39,244 --> 00:07:50,329\n他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金\n\n22\n00:07:56,789 --> 00:08:10,012\n美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的\n\n23\n00:08:18,914 --> 00:08:36,111\n你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年\n\n24\n00:08:36,651 --> 00:08:50,916\n去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上\n\n25\n00:08:52,717 --> 00:09:22,137\n我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括\n\n26\n00:09:23,297 --> 00:09:47,495\n這個招聘的費用相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的\n\n27\n00:09:49,195 --> 00:10:08,063\n在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候\n\n28\n00:10:16,147 --> 00:10:44,502\n不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個PeterPeterBenson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務\n\n29\n00:10:46,479 --> 00:11:14,887\n我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了\n\n30\n00:11:15,467 --> 00:11:42,908\n因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是PeterBenson他在2025年今年3月\n\n31\n00:11:44,161 --> 00:11:46,107\n的確對台灣又做了\n\n32\n00:11:47,116 --> 00:12:14,491\n我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工\n\n33\n00:12:15,131 --> 00:12:35,585\n他們訪談了吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是他應該在場外是訪談我有看到那篇報導對啊很多詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了但是報導整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上20名以上\n\n34\n00:12:38,907 --> 00:13:03,608\n現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長\n\n35\n00:13:04,861 --> 00:13:28,809\n那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎\n\n36\n00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:38,882\n這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場\n\n37\n00:13:46,547 --> 00:14:04,125\n他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險\n\n38\n00:14:10,151 --> 00:14:32,620\n勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明\n\n39\n00:14:34,801 --> 00:14:54,846\n第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個\n\n40\n00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:19,853\n來國際規範呢就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項\n\n41\n00:15:22,395 --> 00:15:44,442\n在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個\n\n42\n00:15:46,949 --> 00:16:11,859\n我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了這些都講很多年第一個虐待弱勢第二個欺騙第三個扣留工資第四個債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班\n\n43\n00:16:13,621 --> 00:16:22,955\n債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的\n\n44\n00:16:25,387 --> 00:16:41,659\n我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那\n\n45\n00:16:43,860 --> 00:17:05,340\n不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年\n\n46\n00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:09,382\n延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對\n\n47\n00:17:23,012 --> 00:17:41,162\n這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上\n\n48\n00:17:42,563 --> 00:18:11,302\n我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個PeterBenson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你\n\n49\n00:18:12,532 --> 00:18:39,065\n我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有\n\n50\n00:18:41,161 --> 00:19:00,386\n你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢\n\n51\n00:19:02,157 --> 00:19:12,354\n如果你這個大企業指標企業你都不敢勞檢都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢\n\n52\n00:19:14,517 --> 00:19:40,052\n跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善\n\n53\n00:19:43,214 --> 00:20:01,565\n大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布\n\n54\n00:20:03,586 --> 00:20:30,517\n我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以\n\n55\n00:20:31,337 --> 00:20:56,580\n他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本\n\n56\n00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:20,459\n還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個\n\n57\n00:21:21,573 --> 00:21:24,897\n你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的\n\n58\n00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:54,785\n就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都\n\n59\n00:21:57,727 --> 00:22:23,313\n現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘\n\n60\n00:22:24,813 --> 00:22:49,611\n委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明\n\n61\n00:22:53,233 --> 00:23:10,418\n我們其實現在這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在不是牛布化是蝸牛化沒有不應該是停留在原地一千個一千個\n\n62\n00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:31,516\n可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大\n\n63\n00:23:32,216 --> 00:23:39,802\n我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少1000這樣子有用嗎\n\n64\n00:23:54,273 --> 00:24:15,936\n當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來\n\n65\n00:24:17,077 --> 00:24:31,966\n這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道\n\n66\n00:24:32,967 --> 00:24:50,296\n丹麥這個記者PeterBenson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險\n\n67\n00:24:51,036 --> 00:25:10,354\n而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多那法制面你要怎麼做\n\n68\n00:25:12,401 --> 00:25:35,992\n其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績\n\n69\n00:25:36,832 --> 00:25:43,796\n沒有成績至於我們三年關兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬還包括新光芳新鮮還包括永德美麗達振興橡膠還包括健林精塑聖品愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司\n\n70\n00:26:03,187 --> 00:26:22,089\n這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈\n\n71\n00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:26,311\n這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松\n\n72\n00:26:46,440 --> 00:27:02,627\n他不是我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選\n\n73\n00:27:13,311 --> 00:27:38,698\n否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標\n\n74\n00:27:40,179 --> 00:27:59,857\n謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4359\t8201\t宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長\n25738\t47906\t林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個\n50534\t78981\t發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國\n80781\t97533\t韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業\n100436\t116901\t還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對\n117941\t140558\t那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了\n141118\t163943\t可是在今年這個時候 這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來 這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑\n165323\t187453\t華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留\n188153\t203667\t那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢\n206243\t227317\t我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視\n230279\t245965\t在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法\n248866\t269382\t包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉\n271784\t293784\t這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀\n296007\t313521\t那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀 知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的\n314622\t329269\t短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的\n334389\t361937\t中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊\n363954\t371644\t我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面\n376824\t404963\t我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易\n407565\t428304\t我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費\n429185\t456143\t支付了賠償金 改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎\n459244\t470329\t他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金\n476789\t490012\t美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的\n498914\t516111\t你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年\n516651\t530916\t去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上\n532717\t562137\t我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括\n563297\t587495\t這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的\n589195\t608063\t在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候\n616147\t644502\t不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個Peter Peter Benson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務\n646479\t674887\t我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了\n675467\t702908\t因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月\n704161\t706107\t的確對台灣又做了\n707116\t734491\t我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工\n735131\t755585\t他們訪談了 吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是 他應該在場外是訪談 我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多 詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了 但是報導 整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上 20名以上\n758907\t783608\t現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長\n784861\t808809\t那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎\n809930\t818882\t這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場\n826547\t844125\t他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應 你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險\n850151\t872620\t勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明\n874801\t894846\t第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個\n899740\t919853\t來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項\n922395\t944442\t在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個\n946949\t971859\t我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班\n973621\t982955\t債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的\n985387\t1001659\t我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那\n1003860\t1025340\t不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年\n1025860\t1029382\t延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對\n1043012\t1061162\t這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上\n1062563\t1091302\t我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你\n1092532\t1119065\t我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有\n1121161\t1140386\t你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢\n1142157\t1152354\t如果你這個大企業 指標企業你都不敢勞檢 都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢\n1154517\t1180052\t跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善\n1183214\t1201565\t大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布\n1203586\t1230517\t我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以\n1231337\t1256580\t他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本\n1258920\t1280459\t還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個\n1281573\t1284897\t你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的\n1296650\t1314785\t就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都\n1317727\t1343313\t現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘\n1344813\t1369611\t委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明\n1373233\t1390418\t我們其實現在 這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地一千個 一千個\n1392900\t1411516\t可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大\n1412216\t1419802\t我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎\n1434273\t1455936\t當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來\n1457077\t1471966\t這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道\n1472967\t1490296\t丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎 不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險\n1491036\t1510354\t而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做\n1512401\t1535992\t其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績\n1536832\t1543796\t沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 精塑 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司\n1563187\t1582089\t這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈\n1583030\t1586311\t這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松\n1606440\t1622627\t他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選\n1633311\t1658698\t否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標\n1660179\t1679857\t謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬\n","txt":"宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長\n林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個\n發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國\n韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業\n還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對\n那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了\n可是在今年這個時候 這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來 這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑\n華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留\n那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢\n我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視\n在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法\n包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉\n這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀\n那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀 知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的\n短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的\n中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊\n我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面\n我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易\n我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費\n支付了賠償金 改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎\n他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金\n美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的\n你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年\n去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上\n我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括\n這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的\n在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候\n不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個Peter Peter Benson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務\n我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了\n因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月\n的確對台灣又做了\n我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工\n他們訪談了 吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是 他應該在場外是訪談 我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多 詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了 但是報導 整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上 20名以上\n現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長\n那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎\n這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場\n他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應 你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險\n勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明\n第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個\n來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項\n在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個\n我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班\n債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的\n我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那\n不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年\n延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對\n這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上\n我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你\n我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有\n你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢\n如果你這個大企業 指標企業你都不敢勞檢 都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢\n跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善\n大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布\n我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以\n他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本\n還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個\n你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的\n就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都\n現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘\n委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明\n我們其實現在 這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地一千個 一千個\n可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大\n我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎\n當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來\n這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道\n丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎 不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險\n而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做\n其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績\n沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 精塑 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司\n這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈\n這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松\n他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選\n否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標\n謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.359 --> 00:08.201\n宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長\n\n00:25.738 --> 00:47.906\n林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個\n\n00:50.534 --> 01:18.981\n發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國\n\n01:20.781 --> 01:37.533\n韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soulfarm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業\n\n01:40.436 --> 01:56.901\n還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前對\n\n01:57.941 --> 02:20.558\n那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了\n\n02:21.118 --> 02:43.943\n可是在今年這個時候這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑\n\n02:45.323 --> 03:07.453\n華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withholdreleaseorder要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留\n\n03:08.153 --> 03:23.667\n那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢\n\n03:26.243 --> 03:47.317\n我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視\n\n03:50.279 --> 04:05.965\n在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法\n\n04:08.866 --> 04:29.382\n包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉\n\n04:31.784 --> 04:53.784\n這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個你出口轉賣退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣不要到我美國來第三個你放棄這些貨物銷毀\n\n04:56.007 --> 05:13.521\n那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的\n\n05:14.622 --> 05:29.269\n短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的\n\n05:34.389 --> 06:01.937\n中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊\n\n06:03.954 --> 06:11.644\n我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面\n\n06:16.824 --> 06:44.963\n我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易\n\n06:47.565 --> 07:08.304\n我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費\n\n07:09.185 --> 07:36.143\n支付了賠償金改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎\n\n07:39.244 --> 07:50.329\n他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金\n\n07:56.789 --> 08:10.012\n美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的\n\n08:18.914 --> 08:36.111\n你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年\n\n08:36.651 --> 08:50.916\n去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上\n\n08:52.717 --> 09:22.137\n我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括\n\n09:23.297 --> 09:47.495\n這個招聘的費用相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的\n\n09:49.195 --> 10:08.063\n在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候\n\n10:16.147 --> 10:44.502\n不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個PeterPeterBenson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務\n\n10:46.479 --> 11:14.887\n我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了\n\n11:15.467 --> 11:42.908\n因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是PeterBenson他在2025年今年3月\n\n11:44.161 --> 11:46.107\n的確對台灣又做了\n\n11:47.116 --> 12:14.491\n我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工\n\n12:15.131 --> 12:35.585\n他們訪談了吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是他應該在場外是訪談我有看到那篇報導對啊很多詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了但是報導整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上20名以上\n\n12:38.907 --> 13:03.608\n現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長\n\n13:04.861 --> 13:28.809\n那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎\n\n13:29.930 --> 13:38.882\n這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場\n\n13:46.547 --> 14:04.125\n他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險\n\n14:10.151 --> 14:32.620\n勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明\n\n14:34.801 --> 14:54.846\n第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個\n\n14:59.740 --> 15:19.853\n來國際規範呢就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項\n\n15:22.395 --> 15:44.442\n在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個\n\n15:46.949 --> 16:11.859\n我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了這些都講很多年第一個虐待弱勢第二個欺騙第三個扣留工資第四個債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班\n\n16:13.621 --> 16:22.955\n債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的\n\n16:25.387 --> 16:41.659\n我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那\n\n16:43.860 --> 17:05.340\n不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年\n\n17:05.860 --> 17:09.382\n延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對\n\n17:23.012 --> 17:41.162\n這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上\n\n17:42.563 --> 18:11.302\n我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個PeterBenson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你\n\n18:12.532 --> 18:39.065\n我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有\n\n18:41.161 --> 19:00.386\n你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢\n\n19:02.157 --> 19:12.354\n如果你這個大企業指標企業你都不敢勞檢都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢\n\n19:14.517 --> 19:40.052\n跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善\n\n19:43.214 --> 20:01.565\n大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布\n\n20:03.586 --> 20:30.517\n我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以\n\n20:31.337 --> 20:56.580\n他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本\n\n20:58.920 --> 21:20.459\n還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個\n\n21:21.573 --> 21:24.897\n你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的\n\n21:36.650 --> 21:54.785\n就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都\n\n21:57.727 --> 22:23.313\n現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘\n\n22:24.813 --> 22:49.611\n委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明\n\n22:53.233 --> 23:10.418\n我們其實現在這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在不是牛布化是蝸牛化沒有不應該是停留在原地一千個一千個\n\n23:12.900 --> 23:31.516\n可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大\n\n23:32.216 --> 23:39.802\n我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少1000這樣子有用嗎\n\n23:54.273 --> 24:15.936\n當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來\n\n24:17.077 --> 24:31.966\n這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道\n\n24:32.967 --> 24:50.296\n丹麥這個記者PeterBenson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險\n\n24:51.036 --> 25:10.354\n而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多那法制面你要怎麼做\n\n25:12.401 --> 25:35.992\n其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績\n\n25:36.832 --> 25:43.796\n沒有成績至於我們三年關兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬還包括新光芳新鮮還包括永德美麗達振興橡膠還包括健林精塑聖品愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司\n\n26:03.187 --> 26:22.089\n這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈\n\n26:23.030 --> 26:26.311\n這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松\n\n26:46.440 --> 27:02.627\n他不是我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選\n\n27:13.311 --> 27:38.698\n否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標\n\n27:40.179 --> 27:59.857\n謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.359,"end":8.201,"text":"宣告待會林淑芬委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘好謝謝主席是不是請我們這個洪森漢部長請洪森漢部長"},{"start":25.738,"end":47.906,"text":"林委員好部長今天對於這個減班休息的問題大概還沒因為前面很多委員問過了我就暫時先不問了因為時間有限那我今天比較覺得令人擔心的是來自於美國海關際邊境保護局就是CBP在9月24對台灣的巨大自行車製造這個"},{"start":50.534,"end":78.981,"text":"發布戰扣令WRO台灣首次有這個製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件那我要問你是說你知道今年到底美國被美國政府被CBP採取WRO的這個手段強扣商品在海關有多少案子你知道嗎除了台灣以外還有誰今年好像上半年還有韓國"},{"start":80.781,"end":97.533,"text":"韓國的什麼產品他應該是一個英文是soul farm是一個鹽田是農業還有誰上半年好像還有一個中國好像也有中國也有但絕對都不是製造業"},{"start":100.436,"end":116.901,"text":"還有沒有其他的就製造業的產品而言台灣這個可能是美國這個邊境保護局裡面採取的可能是比較重大的一個案子對美國來講可能也是一個大案子之前還有比方說馬來西亞那個是多年以前 對"},{"start":117.941,"end":140.558,"text":"那美國這個關稅法是很早就有的法律1930年就有的法律他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動同工或求工的商品進口這麼很早很老舊的法律早就都存在了那我想巨大有沒有涉及這些強迫勞動這個問題也被討論很久很久很久了"},{"start":141.118,"end":163.943,"text":"可是在今年這個時候 這個時間點我們正在進行對等關稅的談判我們正在進行232的談判在這種狀況裡面被扣下來 這個滋事體大那跟歐盟的法律的這個差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑"},{"start":165.323,"end":187.453,"text":"華裔貨品涉及到強迫勞動就可以在邊境攔截還有禁止他進口所以在這種狀況裡面只要CBP掌握了合理的華裔的時候就會先發布這個WRO就是這個withhold release order要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留"},{"start":188.153,"end":203.667,"text":"那我要請教你就是說在這麼高強度只要華語就可以扣的狀況裡面你覺得台灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國的時候可能有風險為什麼這麼說呢"},{"start":206.243,"end":227.317,"text":"我一開始就講這是美國最高度貿易保護的時代的來臨在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護所以他們對於進口到美國的產品他們現在會採取更高的標準去檢視"},{"start":230.279,"end":245.965,"text":"在這種狀況裡面我們也看到台灣一路走來台灣一路走來怎麼樣不曉得你知道的包括台灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面我們才訂出了勞基法"},{"start":248.866,"end":269.382,"text":"包括現在的強迫勞動裡面的勞動人權他們基於貿易保護然後勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了所以在這種狀況裡面他們要抵制用貿易手段來強迫我們改善這個都不是一個個別企業的問題囉"},{"start":271.784,"end":293.784,"text":"這個風險是台灣整體對外貿易 對美貿易的大風險在這裡所以在這種狀況裡面 被扣的產品要有幾個選擇第一個 你提出證明你這個不是強迫勞動第二個 你出口轉賣 退回原產地或是你到其他市場去賣 不要到我美國來第三個 你放棄這些貨物銷毀"},{"start":296.007,"end":313.521,"text":"那如果後續你沒有採取手段被調查你的強迫勞動如果是真的的話CBP他會發布正式認定依法對產品沒收或銷毀 知識體大所以這個戰扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的"},{"start":314.622,"end":329.269,"text":"短則幾個月長則數年的調查戰扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊你知道馬來西亞你剛剛講那是2020年他們的"},{"start":334.389,"end":361.937,"text":"中旅遊被查扣2020他到今年欸2025年的2月補交了勞工合規資料歷經5年而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷仍停留在等待美方回復的階段而多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令我現在講說你再看糖鹽中旅遊"},{"start":363.954,"end":371.644,"text":"我們是什麼東西我們是製造業人家都是農業一級加工產品我們是製造業在這種狀況裡面"},{"start":376.824,"end":404.963,"text":"我是覺得這個跟我們台灣這種狀況這種處境真的是很不利喔這些先例我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示都在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題而在高度的貿易保護的氛圍之下各國都要面臨更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易"},{"start":407.565,"end":428.304,"text":"我們講馬來西亞不要再講他們的中旅遊還有一個叫做最大的手套製造商叫TopGlove它包含退還外籍工人的仲介費它被發布了戰扣令以後它馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費"},{"start":429.185,"end":456.143,"text":"支付了賠償金 改善了工作場所住宿還有改善勞動條件還委託獨立集合機構進行審核所以部長你知道嗎TopGlobe從被發佈暫扣令到最後撤銷這個禁令花了多長的時間你知道嗎TopGlobe也是花了應該是超過一年以上對啊 超過一年以上CBP才解除它可是你知道它損失多少錢嗎"},{"start":459.244,"end":470.329,"text":"他對他暫扣令超過一年的時間這個公司總計損失多少錢我記得是上億不是不止在損失36億的馬幣在當時是8.57億的美金"},{"start":476.789,"end":490.012,"text":"美金啊這麼高啊那其實大家都知道就是說企業我要講說企業的這個被發佈戰扣令影響的不是只有業主的利益也不是這公司而已他嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅所以跟勞資是息息相關的"},{"start":498.914,"end":516.111,"text":"你因為強迫勞動違反勞動人權可是你被暫扣以後你又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險所以會雪上加霜這個知識體大而我要講的是說因為你還沒有上任以前在去年"},{"start":516.651,"end":530.916,"text":"去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款我諮詢過就是因為台美21世紀的貿易倡議裡面人家美方的代表講得很具體很清楚講勞動議題上"},{"start":532.717,"end":562.137,"text":"我當時質詢是說你不要把勞動議題變成台美21世紀貿易倡議的談判裡面的貿易障礙因為美方的貿易代表署他們公告的擬議文本講得很具體要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護催少者的規定而且要提出強化移工保護包括"},{"start":563.297,"end":587.495,"text":"這個招聘的費用 相關成本的規定當時也包含了這個遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利講得很具體可是當時你們的部長其實呢認為說貿易談判不是我們主責的人家美方貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題然後當時的部長說這個不是我主責的"},{"start":589.195,"end":608.063,"text":"在這個每21世紀的貿易倡議的談判裡面去年的還講到說要提到建立合作機制解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題然後呢還有這個美國講這麼多台灣的回答台灣官方回應21世紀這個貿易倡議的這個談判其實人家實問我們虛答而在那個時候"},{"start":616.147,"end":644.502,"text":"不要忘了還有兩篇報導都是這個Peter Peter Benson當時啊2024年台灣翻譯但實際上是講2023年太空債務奴役與台灣為跨國衛星電子汽車等公司供貨的台灣企業背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務"},{"start":646.479,"end":674.887,"text":"我們被點名了而且不要以為是巨大的傳統產業還包含STARLINK的這個協力廠商跨國衛星STARLINK的協力廠商還包含電子產業還包含汽車產業而過去這好像是你們自己台灣的勞工人權可是2023年2024年到2025年4月以後來看它不一樣了"},{"start":675.467,"end":702.908,"text":"因為他會成為有可能成為對等貿易應該是說這樣說好了他有可能成為貿易保護高漲的氛圍之下的任何這個手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情而恰好同一個記者就是Peter Benson他在2025年今年3月"},{"start":704.161,"end":706.107,"text":"的確對台灣又做了"},{"start":707.116,"end":734.491,"text":"我們剛剛講這些太空奴役債務奴役和台灣電子汽車衛星而今年他很具體巨大就在他的調查裡面他針對好幾家包括電子產業包括汽車供應產業零件供應產業包括巨大等等他在裡面做了很多的調查而且還包括說他們訪談了他們的外籍移工"},{"start":735.131,"end":755.585,"text":"他們訪談了 吉安特有幾個移工你知道嗎應該是 他應該在場外是訪談 我有看到那篇報導對啊 很多 詳細的數字我沒有記住他們也訪談了 但是報導 整篇報導我都看完了也訪談了梅利達他們吉安特訪談了20名以上 20名以上"},{"start":758.907,"end":783.608,"text":"現在他們還把訪談的紀錄還有他們調查報告還交給他把三個案例交給美國的調查機構叫做TransparentOK三個三家企業你知道哪三家嗎業務單位知不知道這麼大的事情你們業務單位到底知不知道部長"},{"start":784.861,"end":808.809,"text":"那個委員其實這件事我們很清楚所以從今年上半年從今年上半年我們跟法案署我們其實就針對強迫勞動的風險我們其實很審慎的包括也找相關的品牌他這個都已經指名個別廠商了包括當時的巨大都被點名了而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎"},{"start":809.93,"end":818.882,"text":"這個除了吉安特以外還包括他把三家企業交給美國調查機構還包括裡面的漢太克精密科技還包括Hitachi而且這裡面還有我們的官方台灣桃園國際機場"},{"start":826.547,"end":844.125,"text":"他也訪談了十多名台灣桃園國際機場公司也在列勞開試我現在要說的是部長針對這個事情我一直講知識體大可是你怎麼回應 你的回應是說不能將此案視為單純個案 講得沒錯業者都應該將此視為重大風險"},{"start":850.151,"end":872.62,"text":"勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計劃期望可協助企業辨識評估風險 進而避免風險保證好像只有這個問題而已你說得好像全部都是企業的問題企業自己要管理的問題不是啊跟委員說明不是啊 不只是啊委員可以讓我有一點時間可以說明"},{"start":874.801,"end":894.846,"text":"第一個當然我們現在這個階段我們當然是要有輔導的機制但同時我們會檢視我們相關的法規那我們也必須評估法規調整的需要來逐步趨近國際上面的規範的要求那我想這都是你知道我們法律裡面如果跟國際這個"},{"start":899.74,"end":919.853,"text":"來 國際規範呢 就是ILO的規範來講我們少了哪幾塊嗎ILO有11項11項強迫勞動的風險的指標而我們現有的法律從勞動基準法第5條就業服務法第57條第7款包括就業服務法第57條第8款人口販運防治法裡面第32條第一項"},{"start":922.395,"end":944.442,"text":"在這種狀況所對應的ILO的這個風險指標它11款我們法律只規定了幾款你知道嗎我們的確現在在法規上面那針對這個跟ILO之間我們落差差了六款沒有制定上去六款哪六款你知道嗎這個"},{"start":946.949,"end":971.859,"text":"我們現在有在做這個法規當然有在做這些相關的檢討講很多年了 這些都講很多年第一個 虐待弱勢第二個 欺騙第三個 扣留工資第四個 債務束縛而在現行台灣已經包括我個人已經講了一二十年了債務束縛第十 第另一個惡劣的工作和生活條件再來就是過度加班"},{"start":973.621,"end":982.955,"text":"債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚而且講得最久的而且勞動部都一直不願意去面對的而且人家在問的時候你們都虛答的"},{"start":985.387,"end":1001.659,"text":"我們現在我們當然必須面對這件事情那其實我自己到部裡面以後我們從上半年非常非常審慎的在嚴肅的看待這件事情那我們也陸陸續續在跟一些尤其是高風險的產業在做討論跟溝通那"},{"start":1003.86,"end":1025.34,"text":"不是啦這個是全面性你不能說因為到美國現在美國有貿易保護主義的這個高漲所以他們要發起抵制了所以勞動人權要重視只在美國不是不只連歐洲歐盟也有CSDD歐盟已經幾年以後要開始施行你知道嗎27年不是28年他們後來延後一年"},{"start":1025.86,"end":1029.382,"text":"延後一年那也是一樣所以現在對外貿易大家都不斷的用勞動人權來當成對外貿易的檢視的指標而我們今天刻不容緩不得不去面對"},{"start":1043.012,"end":1061.162,"text":"這個態勢是非常清楚的所以勞動部跟台灣的企業急需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵儘管我們這幾年我們整體產業好像發展的持續的很穩定排名好像名列前茅但是在勞動人權議題上"},{"start":1062.563,"end":1091.302,"text":"我們仍然很明顯的落後於國際水準在這種狀況裡面我就以捷安特為例你們進去人家說你強迫勞動你怎麼幫他解套你們進去裡面勞檢嗎跟我說我們有助長但我們不是勞檢你們不是勞檢為什麼不是勞檢為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢為什麼一個Peter Benson他可以訪談的到這麼多的他們工廠裡面的移工而你"},{"start":1092.532,"end":1119.065,"text":"我們的官方不是你我們的官方都沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題跟文說明我們現在我說我們沒有把這當作是個案第二個我們其實必須做通案我們跟經濟部會合作來做協助企業通案的檢視美國懷疑他是強迫勞動你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有"},{"start":1121.161,"end":1140.386,"text":"你不敢做因為他的確有可能是的確有我們必須協助企業提出改善方案所以有那如果有的話你們為什麼沒有正式勞檢我們要協助企業提出改善方案到底為什麼在這種狀況都被人家實施暫扣令了為什麼不勞檢"},{"start":1142.157,"end":1152.354,"text":"如果你這個大企業 指標企業你都不敢勞檢 都不願意勞檢然後你只是說我叫他們去改善不就是有問題才需要改善嗎為什麼不勞檢"},{"start":1154.517,"end":1180.052,"text":"跟委員說我們是用希望協助企業提出改善方案而且具體的改善方案的這樣子的建議來進場來給予他建議跟要求我覺得我在問你都沒有聽懂為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到而我們卻在正式勞檢的時候勞檢不到然後呢被美國實施暫扣令了你們連勞檢都沒有進去就說你要去輔導企業改善如果他沒有違反違規沒有強迫勞動他何須改善"},{"start":1183.214,"end":1201.565,"text":"大家都看到美國要實施戰扣令了歐盟2027年要禁止強迫勞動產品要上市規章然後都要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動大家才願意改善的時候你政府才願意去看到制度面的問題所以我們自己國家人權委員會有發布"},{"start":1203.586,"end":1230.517,"text":"我們自己的國家人權委員會有發布台灣企業跟人權國家行動計畫我們這裡面也談到企業跟工會對企業人權政策的意識有待加強在資本主義的社會裡面我們可以理解企業追求是利潤的極大化可是在這裡面他把成本環境成本外部化勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去所以"},{"start":1231.337,"end":1256.58,"text":"他會當然說你當然降低成本美國來講你的降低成本來自於你的勞動人權你的環境成本是不符合規定的所以你當然在世界你的產品有競爭力他未來也會這樣對其他的這個國家在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下所以在這種台灣企業不願意去負擔的這個成本"},{"start":1258.92,"end":1280.459,"text":"還有政府你知道在這種狀況裡面我們就更需要國對國職聘不是嗎是你們現在有幾個國對國職聘其實我們現在是有我們其實跟文說明其實我們在明年的計劃裡面其實也是提出一個延攬中心沒有你問我你的目標是多少個"},{"start":1281.573,"end":1284.897,"text":"你的國對國訓可以大幅的降低所謂的強迫勞動裡面債務的問題而你最核心被美國被歐洲被世界各地的記者或是官方指責的"},{"start":1296.65,"end":1314.785,"text":"就是這些外籍移工為了要來台灣簽下很大量的本票然後或是號稱是債務其實是仲介費可能是仲介費在這種狀況裡面只有國對國的執聘人家韓國全部都做得到台灣全部都"},{"start":1317.727,"end":1343.313,"text":"現在已經到刻不容緩不能再這樣下去那我現在要問你不要求你馬上立即全部都解決法制面我剛剛講的我們還有國際IL指標11項我們只有5項的規定有6項都沒有任何規定在這種狀況裡面國對國職聘可以解決很多問題那80萬的外籍移工你的目標設定有幾個國對國的職聘"},{"start":1344.813,"end":1369.611,"text":"委員我做點說明第一個其實現在四個來源國我們其實都有職聘但是但是做得不夠到位對啦我就問你你要設定目標因為你是洪森漢啊你不是許民村啊許民村的目標是一千個八十萬裡面一千個啊我現在要問的是洪森漢部長你的目標是八十萬的外籍移工裡面你告訴我你希望可以到達一萬個兩萬個跟委員說明"},{"start":1373.233,"end":1390.418,"text":"我們其實現在 這也是為什麼我們現在提出了一個我們要一個延攬中心你知道韓國全部都是國對國執拼嗎 韓國你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎你知道台灣還在 不是牛布化是蝸牛化 沒有 不 應該是停留在原地一千個 一千個"},{"start":1392.9,"end":1411.516,"text":"可以讓我說完第一個我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國日本來去跟他們了解他們在執聘制度上面的做法所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的做法這個延攬中心的做法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能你的目標人數是多大"},{"start":1412.216,"end":1419.802,"text":"我不想要看到你說你要做什麼我要看到你的目標人數是多少最終要檢驗是你有幾個多少的數量是國對國執聘進來的我要看到這個我想人數我們會再來評估人數是重點啊你告訴我說我們有過程我們會改善最終人數是多少 1000這樣子有用嗎"},{"start":1434.273,"end":1455.936,"text":"當然不會是這個數字啊對啊那你不設定數字就是空談啊空談啊那我們其實現在尤其是現在在會有開始有海外的我們也其實也跟行政院爭取人力在提高政府的這個在聘僱過程裡面的功能跟量能上面我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚的拉出來"},{"start":1457.077,"end":1471.966,"text":"這是在這件事在執行上面的重點但是國家退位三十年後擇武旁貸本來就應該要扛出來的沒錯沒錯所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做而且必須大步走出去你必須設定你要多少人數當目標嘛那我現在講的就是說你知道"},{"start":1472.967,"end":1490.296,"text":"丹麥這個記者Peter Benson他現在只講台灣自行車產業而已嗎 不只他只指台灣的汽車零組件 電子產業所以我才問你說不是只有吉安特有風險還有電子產業還有台灣的汽車零組件這些都有風險"},{"start":1491.036,"end":1510.354,"text":"而制度面我剛剛講了制度面台灣法制化的ILO的11項風險指標只有5項還有6項完全沒有制定還有政策面政策面就是你的國對國職聘的人數你要設定目標法制面要修法的還有很多 那法制面你要怎麼做"},{"start":1512.401,"end":1535.992,"text":"其實我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分現在同時來評估其實不是從這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始其實是從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備的工作我自己也都親自主持跟產業跟被暫扣的陸陸續續在做那是一個過程那是必須做的過程但我們要看到成績"},{"start":1536.832,"end":1543.796,"text":"沒有成績 至於我們三年關 兩年罵更何況你這個政務官不知道做多久我現在講這個記者的調查報告他不是吉安特還包括健鵬 還包括新光芳 新鮮還包括永德 美麗達 振興橡膠還包括健林 精塑 聖品 愛訓很多上市櫃公司甚至我剛剛講桃園國際機場公司"},{"start":1563.187,"end":1582.089,"text":"這個問題都已經不是單一企業踩到紅線而是反映出台灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的這個結構性的困境我們用最低的勞動力成本 環境成本去換取國際競爭力可是在這種全球供應鏈"},{"start":1583.03,"end":1586.311,"text":"這種不對等的狀況裡面我們這一種方法恐怕因為ODM的國家就是成本競爭可是這種狀況我們已經食不我語了我們想要繼續這樣子也食不我語從產業和經濟面來看我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松"},{"start":1606.44,"end":1622.627,"text":"他不是 我知道他不是100公尺跑完馬上立竿見影但是你必須現在就開始做而且著手做而且要設定目標在這裡你要修法要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義要參考ILO的11項指標要辨識強迫勞動所以這樣子企業才有所歸選"},{"start":1633.311,"end":1658.698,"text":"否則現在國際的記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO11項指標可是我們的企業說我們的法律只有5項我們法律又沒有規定到這裡我怎麼遵循你說你要去輔導企業你這個企業不知道怎麼遵循因為對他們來講到底要做到什麼程度沒有法制化的規範然後ILO也是一個指標"},{"start":1660.179,"end":1679.857,"text":"謝謝我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要那是不是請部長可以就是會後提供給林淑芬委員具體你的目標好你的數字和你們要做的事情好這個部分請紅部長這個這個要馬上做了啦我們沒有迴避的空間謝謝林淑芬"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時37分）好，謝謝主席，是不是請洪申翰部長？"],["主席：請洪申翰部長。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天對於減班休息的問題，前面很多委員問過了，我就暫時先不問，因為時間有限，我今天覺得比較令人擔心的是來自於美國海關暨邊境保護局（CBP）在9月24號對臺灣的巨大自行車製造發布暫扣令（WRO），臺灣首次有製造業被CBP指控涉及強迫勞動的重大人權事件。我要問你，你知道今年被美國政府CBP採取WRO的手段強扣商品在海關到底有多少案子，你知道嗎？除了臺灣以外還有誰？"],["洪部長申翰：今年好像上半年還有韓國。"],["林委員淑芬：韓國的什麼產品？"],["洪部長申翰：它應該是一個……英文是Salt Farm。"],["林委員淑芬：OK，是一個鹽田，是農業。還有誰？"],["洪部長申翰：上半年好像還有一個，中國好像也有。"],["林委員淑芬：中國也有，但絕對都不是製造業，還有沒有其他的？"],["洪部長申翰：可能要確認一下。"],["林委員淑芬：就製造業的產品而言，臺灣可能是美國邊境保護局採取的比較重大的一個案子，對美國來講，可能也是一個大案子。"],["洪部長申翰：之前還有比方說馬來西亞。"],["林委員淑芬：那個是多年以前。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：美國的關稅法是很早就有的法律，1930年就有的法律，他們禁止任何涉及強迫勞動、童工或囚工的商品進口，這麼早又很老舊的法律早就都存在了，至於巨大有沒有涉及這一些強迫勞動的問題也被討論很久很久很久了，可是在今年這個時候、這個時間點，我們正在進行對等關稅的談判，我們正在進行232的談判，在這種狀況裡面被扣下來，這個茲事體大。而跟歐盟法律的差異是在於美國的法律是允許主管機關只要懷疑貨品涉及到強迫勞動，就可以在邊境攔截和禁止它進口，所以在這種狀況裡面，只要CBP掌握了合理懷疑的時候就會先發布WRO，就是Withhold Release Order，要求相關產品在進口美國的時候就立即扣留。","我要請教你，在這麼高強度只要懷疑就可以扣的狀況裡面，你覺得臺灣還有哪些公司或是哪一些商品要進口到美國時可能有風險？為什麼我這麼說呢？我一開始就講，這是美國最高度貿易保護時代的來臨，在這種狀況裡面基於貿易保護，所以他們對於進口到美國的產品，現在會採取更高的標準去檢視，在這種狀況裡面，我們也看到臺灣一路走來怎麼樣？部長，您知道的，包括臺灣的勞基法都是在美國使用貿易手段要抵制我們的狀況裡面才訂出了勞基法，包括現在強迫勞動裡的勞動人權，他們基於貿易保護，勞動人權的大刀就又拿出來了，所以在這種狀況裡面，他們要抵制、用貿易手段來強迫我們改善，這個都不是一個個別企業的問題了！臺灣整體對外貿易、對美貿易的大風險就在這裡，所以在這種狀況裡面，被扣的產品有幾個選擇，第一個，你提出不是強迫勞動的證明；第二個，你出口轉賣、退回原產地，或是您到其他市場去賣，不要到我美國來；第三個，你放棄這些貨物然後銷毀。如果後續你沒有採取手段，被調查出你的強迫勞動是真的，CBP會發布正式認定並依法對產品沒收或銷毀，茲事體大！所以這個暫扣令對廠商來講是非常致命的，短則幾個月，長則數年的調查，暫扣令對廠商的影響遠遠高於現在美國對等關稅的衝擊，你知道嗎？你剛剛講的馬來西亞在2020年棕櫚油被查扣，到今年（2025年）的2月補交了勞工合規資料，歷經5年，而暫扣令到現在都還沒有撤銷，仍停留在等待美方回復的階段。還有多明尼加的中央羅馬納糖廠在2023年也被發布暫扣令。","我現在要講的是，你看人家是糖、鹽、棕櫚油，那我們是什麼東西？我們是製造業，人家都是農業一級加工產品，而我們是製造業，在這種狀況裡面，我是覺得我們臺灣這種狀況、這種處境真的是很不利。像這些先例，就是我剛剛講的多明尼加或是馬來西亞，都不是只有美國商品進口國提出警示，都是在凸顯勞動人權已經是全球供應鏈管理的核心議題，而在高度的貿易保護氛圍之下，各國都要面臨以更高的標準來檢視這些世界貿易。我們再講馬來西亞，我不要講他們的棕櫚油了，他們還有一個最大的手套製造商叫Top Glove，他在被發布暫扣令以後就馬上要求退還外籍移工的仲介費，支付了賠償金，改善了工作場所、住宿，改善勞動條件，還委託獨立稽核機構進行審核。部長，你知道Top Glove從被發布暫扣令到最後撤銷禁令花了多長的時間嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：Top Glove應該也是花了超過一年以上。"],["林委員淑芬：對，超過一年以上CBP才解除禁令，可是你知道他損失多少錢嗎？對他發的暫扣令超過一年的時間，這個公司總計損失多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：我記得是上億。"],["林委員淑芬：不只，總計損失了36億的馬幣，在當時是8.57億的美金，金額這麼高，其實大家都知道，就是企業被發布暫扣令，受影響的不是只有業主的利益，也不是這個公司而已，嚴重的時候是對勞工的工作權造成很嚴重的威脅，其實勞資是息息相關的，你因為強迫勞動、違反勞動人權而被暫扣，可是在你被暫扣以後，又讓你的勞工陷入失業的風險，所以會雪上加霜，這個茲事體大。我要講的是，在你還沒有上任以前，在去年都還沒有對等關稅也沒有232條款的時候，我有質詢過這個問題，就是因為在臺美21世紀貿易倡議裡面，人家美方的代表對勞動議題講得很具體、很清楚，我當時質詢時是說你們不要把勞動議題變成臺美21世紀貿易倡議談判時的貿易障礙，因為美方的貿易代表署所公告的擬議文本講得很具體，要求雙邊在各自的勞工法律當中採納國際公認的勞權和保護吹哨者的規定，而且要提出強化移工保護，包括招聘的費用、相關成本的規定，當時也包含了遠洋漁工使用Wi-Fi的權利，講得很具體，可是當時你們的部長認為：貿易談判不是我們主責的。人家美方在貿易談判講出來的問題都是勞動人權的議題，然後當時的部長說：這個不是我主責的。在臺美21世紀貿易倡議去年的談判裡面還講到要建立合作機制來解決供應鏈當中強迫勞動的問題，然後美國講了這麼多，而臺灣官方回應臺美21世紀貿易倡議的談判卻是人家實問而我們虛答。","不要忘了在那個時候還有兩篇Peter Bengtsen的報導，當時是2024年臺灣翻譯的，實際上是講2023年太空、債務奴役與臺灣，指出為跨國衛星、電子、汽車等公司供貨的臺灣企業，在背後隱藏著高昂的招募費和移工債務，我們被點名了！而且不要以為只是巨大這樣的傳統產業，還包含跨國衛星Starlink的協力廠商，還包含電子產業，還包含汽車產業，在過去這好像是臺灣自己的勞工人權，可是在2023年、2024年到2025年4月以後來看，它不一樣了，因為它有可能成為對等貿易……應該是這樣說好了，它有可能成為在貿易保護高漲氛圍之下的任何手段來要求你一定要解決這個事情。而恰好是同一個記者，也就是Peter Bengtsen，他在今年（2025年）3月的確又對臺灣做了報導，我們剛剛講了這些太空、債務奴役和臺灣為電子、汽車、衛星產業供貨，而今年他很具體的指出，巨大就在他的調查裡面，他針對好幾家，包括電子產業，包括汽車供應產業、零件供應產業，包括巨大等等，他做了很多的調查，而且還訪談了他們的外籍移工，你知道他們訪談了幾個捷安特的移工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：他應該有在廠外進行訪談，我有看到那篇報導。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！很多個啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有記住詳細的數字，但是整篇報導我都看完了。"],["林委員淑芬：他們也訪談了美利達，他們訪談了捷安特20名以上的移工，現在他們把訪談的紀錄還有三個案例的調查報告交給美國的Transparentem這個調查機構，你知道有哪三家企業嗎？業務單位知不知道？這麼大的事情，你們業務單位到底知不知道？部長……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，其實這件事我們很清楚，所以從今年上半年我們跟發展署就針對強迫勞動的風險很審慎，包括找相關的品牌……"],["林委員淑芬：他這個報導都已經有指名個別廠商，包括當時的巨大都被點名了，而你們採取了因應的措施和手段了嗎？除了捷安特以外，他把三家企業交給美國調查機構，這裡面包括漢台科技股份有限公司（Hantic Precision Technology, Inc.），還包括HITACHI，而且這裡面還有我們官方的臺灣桃園國際機場，他也訪談了十多名，臺灣桃園國際機場公司也在列，漏氣死了！我現在要說的就是，部長，針對這個事情，我一直講茲事體大，可是你怎麼回應？你的回應是說「不能將此案視為單純個案」，你講得沒錯，你還說「業者都應該將此視為重大經營風險，勞動部已經著手研議強迫勞動指引，並針對人權議題擬定廠商輔導計畫，期望可協助企業辨識、評估風險，進而避免風險」，部長，難道只有這些問題嗎？你說的好像全部都是企業自己要管理的問題，不是啊！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啊！不只是啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以給我一點時間說明，第一個，在現在這個階段，當然我們要有輔導機制，但同時我們也會檢視相關法規，評估法規調整的需要，以逐步趨近國際規範的要求，我想這都是我們必須正面面對的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道我們的法律跟國際規範、ILO規範來比，我們少了哪幾塊嗎？ILO有11項強迫勞動的風險指標，而我們現有的法律，從勞動基準法第五條、就業服務法第五十七條第七款及第八款、人口販運防制法第三十二條第一項，我們所對應的ILO風險指標，它是11項，我們法律只規定了幾項，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：的確現在在法規上，針對跟ILO之間的……"],["林委員淑芬：我們的落差是有6項沒有制定，6項啦！哪6項你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們現在有在做這個法規，當然有在做這些相關的檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：這講很多遍、很多年了，這些都講很多年了，第一個，虐待弱勢；第二個，欺騙；第三個，扣留工資；第四個，債務束縛，這在臺灣，包括我個人都已經講了一、二十年；第五個，惡劣的工作和生活條件；再來就是過度加班。債務束縛其實就是大家最容易講得清楚，而且講了最久的，但勞動部一直不願意面對，人家在問的時候，你們都虛答。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們現在當然必須面對這件事情，其實我到部裡面以後，我們從上半年就非常非常審慎的嚴肅看待這件事情，也陸陸續續跟一些產業，尤其是高風險產業在做討論跟溝通……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！這個是全面性的，你不能說因為現在美國貿易保護主義氛圍高漲，他們要發起抵制，所以要重視的勞動人權只在美國，不是！不只！連歐洲……"],["洪部長申翰：歐盟也有CS3D。"],["林委員淑芬：歐盟在幾年以後就要開始施行，你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：二八年。"],["林委員淑芬：二七年，不是二八年……"],["洪部長申翰：他們後來延後一年。"],["林委員淑芬：喔！延後一年，那也是一樣……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們勢必要面對這個問題。"],["林委員淑芬：現在大家都不斷用勞動人權當成對外貿易的檢視指標，而我們也已經刻不容緩，不得不去面對，雇主也不能……"],["洪部長申翰：這個態勢是非常清楚。"],["林委員淑芬：這是很清楚的。"],["洪部長申翰：態勢是非常清楚的。"],["林委員淑芬：所以勞動部跟臺灣的企業極需要理解供應鏈中強迫勞動的風險在國際上的意涵，儘管這幾年我們整體產業好像持續發展得很穩定，排名好像是名列前茅，但在勞動人權的議題上，我們很明顯仍然落後於國際水準，在這種狀況下，就以捷安特為例，人家說他強迫勞動，你們怎麼幫他解套？你們有進去勞檢嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們有駐廠，但不是勞檢。"],["林委員淑芬：你們不是勞檢，為什麼不是勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是……"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼你們不是透過官方的機制正式勞檢？為什麼一個Peter Bengtsen可以訪談得到這麼多他們工廠裡的移工，而我們官方卻沒有辦法看到一個記者所看到的問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們沒有把這當作是個案，我們其實是把它視為通案，我們也會跟經濟部合作來協助企業做通案的審視。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！美國懷疑他是強迫勞動，你政府做了什麼可以跟美國政府說他沒有？還是你不敢做，因為他的確有，可能是的確有？"],["洪部長申翰：我們必須協助企業提出改善方案。"],["林委員淑芬：所以有？如果有的話，為什麼你們沒有正式勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們要協助企業提出改善方案。"],["林委員淑芬：在這種狀況下，都被人家實施暫扣令了，為什麼不勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們不是用勞……"],["林委員淑芬：如果對大企業、指標企業不敢勞檢，也不願意勞檢，然後只是說叫他們改善，那不就是有問題才需要改善嗎？為什麼不勞檢？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們是希望協助企業提出改善方案，而且是提出具體改善方案的建議來進場，給予他建議跟要求。"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得我問你，你都沒有聽懂，為什麼記者可以調查訪問得到，而我們卻在正式勞檢時勞檢不到？現在被美國實施暫扣令了，你們連勞檢都沒有進去，就只是說要輔導企業改善，如果他沒有違反、違規，沒有強迫勞動，何須改善？大家都看到美國要實施暫扣令了，歐盟2027年也要實施「禁止強迫勞動產品上市規章」，要去看你的供應鏈有沒有涉及到強迫勞動，在大家願意改善的時候，我們政府才願意去看制度面的問題嗎？我們的國家人權委員會發布了「臺灣企業與人權國家行動計畫」，這裡面談到企業跟工會對於企業人權政策的意識有待加強，在資本主義社會，我們可以理解企業追求的是利潤的極大化，可是在這中間，他把環境成本外部化，勞動成本叫這些移工自己吞下去，當然他會降低成本。以美國來講，你降低成本是來自於你的勞動人權、環境成本不符合規定，所以在世界上，你的產品當然有競爭力。未來他也會這樣對其他的國家，在貿易保護的氛圍高漲之下，臺灣企業不願意負擔這個成本，還有政府……你知道，在這種狀況下，我們就更需要國對國直聘，不是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在有幾個國對國直聘？"],["洪部長申翰：我們在明年的計畫裡面，其實有提出一個延攬中心……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，我問你，你的目標是多少個？國對國直聘可以大幅降低所謂強迫勞動裡的債務問題……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，就是……"],["林委員淑芬：而你被美國、被歐洲、被世界各地記者或是官方指責的最大核心問題就是這些外籍移工為了要來臺灣，簽下大量的本票或是號稱的債務，其實可能就是仲介費，在這種狀況下，只有國對國的直聘可以解決，人家韓國全部都做得到，臺灣全部都只有「沒辦法」3個字，現在已經是刻不容緩，不能再這樣下去，所以我就要請問你，我不要求你馬上、立即全部解決，但法制面上，就像我剛剛講的，國際ILO指標11項，我們只有5項規定，有6項都沒有任何規定，在這種狀況下，國對國直聘可以解決很多問題，80萬的外籍移工，你的目標設定有幾個國對國的直聘？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我做一點說明，第一個，其實現在4個來源國我們都有直聘，但是做得不夠到位。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我就問你，你要設定目標。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你是洪申翰、不是許銘春，許銘春的目標是1,000個，80萬個裡面有1,000個，但我現在要問的是洪申翰部長，你告訴我，你的目標是希望80萬個外籍移工裡面可以到1萬個、2萬個？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這就是為什麼我們現在提出我們要有一個延攬中心。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道韓國全部都是國對國直聘嗎？你知道日本也要走向那個制度去了嗎？你知道臺灣還不是牛步化，是蝸牛化嗎？沒有「步」，應該是停留在原地。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：1,000個、1,000個。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，可以讓我說完嗎？第一個，我們從今年上半年開始就一直在跟韓國、日本了解他們直聘制度上面的作法，所以我們現在提出一個延攬中心的作法，這個延攬中心的作法就是要強化政府在聘僱過程裡面的角色跟功能。"],["林委員淑芬：你的目標人數是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：也包括……"],["林委員淑芬：我不想要看到你說你要做什麼，我要看到你的目標人數是多少，最終要檢驗的是你有幾個、有多少數量是國對國直聘進來的，我要看到這個。"],["洪部長申翰：人數我們會再來評估，但是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：人數是重點啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：你告訴我說：「我們有過程，我們會改善」，最終人數是多少？1,000，這樣子有用嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然不會是這個數字。"],["林委員淑芬：對，但你不設定數字就是空談啊！"],["洪部長申翰：現在開始會有海外的，我們其實也跟行政院爭取人力，在提高政府聘僱過程的功能跟量能上面，我們就是希望要把政府的角色更清楚地拉出來，這是在直聘上面的重點。"],["林委員淑芬：但這是國家退位30年後責無旁貸，本來就應該要扛起來的。"],["洪部長申翰：沒錯！所以我們覺得現在就必須要往這個方向去做，而且必須大步走出去。"],["林委員淑芬：對，你必須設定你要把多少人數當目標。"],["洪部長申翰：人數的部分我們會再來評估。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道丹麥Peter Bengtsen這個記者現在不只講臺灣的自行車產業而已嗎？他還直指臺灣的汽車零組件、電子產業，所以我才問你，不是只有捷安特有風險，還有電子產業、臺灣的汽車零組件，這些都有風險。而制度面我剛剛講了，制度面的部分，ILO的11項風險指標，臺灣法制化的只有5項，還有6項完全沒有制定；還有政策面，政策面就是你國對國直聘的人數要設定目標；法制面要修法的還有很多，那法制面你要怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在也在評估這些法規上面要調整的部分，現在同時在評估，其實這個評估並不是從巨大的事件被暫扣以後才開始，從今年上半年我們就陸陸續續在做這些相關的準備工作，我自己也都親自主持，跟產業、跟被暫扣的……"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，陸陸續續在做，那是一個過程，那是必須做的過程，但我們要看到成績，沒有成績，至於我們「三年官，兩年滿」，更何況你這個政務官不知道會做多久。","我現在要說，這個記者的調查報告不只是捷安特，還包括敬鵬、新纖、湧德、美利達、正新橡膠、劍麟、晶碩、勝品、艾訊等很多上市櫃公司，甚至我剛剛講的桃園國際機場公司，這已經不是單一企業踩到紅線的問題，而是反應出臺灣在國際體系裡面國際分工的結構性困境，我們用最低的勞動力成本、環境成本去換取國際競爭力，可是在全球供應鏈這種不對等的狀況裡面，我們這一種方法恐怕……因為OEM、ODM的國家就是成本競爭，可是現在這種狀況已經時不我與了，我們想要繼續這樣子也時不我與，從產業和經濟面來看，我們的確必須要藉這個機會去轉型，而這是一場很需要長期投入的馬拉松，我知道它不是100公尺跑完就馬上立竿見影，但是你必須要現在就開始著手做，而且要設定目標。在這裡你要修法，要明確的定義什麼是強迫勞動，我們連強迫勞動都還沒有辦法明確定義，要參考ILO的11項指標、要辨識強迫勞動，這樣企業才有所規循，否則現在國際記者或是國際調查單位拿ILO 11項指標，可是我們的企業說：「我們的法律只有5項、我們的法律又沒有規定到這裡，我怎麼遵循？」你說你要去輔導企業，但企業不知道要怎麼遵循，因為對他們來講，沒有法制化的規範，到底要做到什麼程度？然後ILO也是1個指標……"],["主席：淑芬委員謝謝，我覺得林淑芬委員講的題目非常的重要，是不是請部長可以會後提供給林淑芬委員具體的目標、數字和你們要做的事情？這個部分請洪部長……"],["林委員淑芬：這個要馬上做了啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我們沒有迴避的空間，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","我們重新宣告：黃國昌委員質詢完畢後，休息5分鐘。請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}