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\"接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 178.294, \"end\": 178.434, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 178.434, \"end\": 178.594, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 178.594, \"end\": 178.694, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 178.694, \"end\": 179.134, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 179.134, \"end\": 179.414, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 179.414, \"end\": 179.735, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 179.735, \"end\": 179.855, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 179.855, \"end\": 180.195, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 180.195, \"end\": 180.355, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 180.355, \"end\": 180.535, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"一\", 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{\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 196.24, \"end\": 196.42, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 196.42, \"end\": 196.76, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 196.76, \"end\": 196.86, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 196.86, \"end\": 197.301, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 197.301, \"end\": 197.621, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"準\", \"start\": 197.621, \"end\": 197.941, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"備\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 197.941, \"end\": 198.101, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 198.101, \"end\": 198.301, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 198.301, \"end\": 199.201, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"彈\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 199.201, \"end\": 199.421, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 199.421, \"end\": 199.601, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"援\", \"start\": 199.601, \"end\": 200.022, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 200.022, \"end\": 200.242, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 200.242, \"end\": 200.402, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 200.402, \"end\": 200.522, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 200.522, \"end\": 200.642, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 200.642, \"end\": 200.782, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 200.782, \"end\": 200.902, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 200.902, \"end\": 200.922, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"錢\"}]}, {\"start\": 203.347, \"end\": 221.793, \"text\": \"呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 203.347, \"end\": 203.527, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 203.527, \"end\": 203.767, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 203.767, \"end\": 204.047, \"score\": 1.0}, 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{\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 208.549, \"end\": 209.669, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 209.669, \"end\": 211.07, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 211.07, \"end\": 211.27, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 211.27, \"end\": 211.39, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 211.39, \"end\": 211.81, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 211.81, \"end\": 212.41, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 212.41, \"end\": 212.51, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 212.51, \"end\": 212.59, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 212.59, \"end\": 213.55, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"呃\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 213.55, \"end\": 214.07, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 214.07, \"end\": 214.271, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 214.271, 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217.311, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"宣\", \"start\": 217.311, \"end\": 218.372, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 218.372, \"end\": 218.452, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 218.452, \"end\": 218.512, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 218.512, \"end\": 218.572, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 218.572, \"end\": 218.632, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 218.632, \"end\": 218.732, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 218.732, \"end\": 218.872, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 218.872, \"end\": 219.212, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 219.212, \"end\": 219.332, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 219.332, \"end\": 219.452, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 219.452, \"end\": 219.812, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 219.812, \"end\": 220.572, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 220.572, \"end\": 220.873, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 220.873, \"end\": 220.993, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 220.993, \"end\": 221.393, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 221.393, \"end\": 221.493, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 221.493, \"end\": 221.633, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 221.633, \"end\": 221.773, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 221.773, \"end\": 221.793, \"score\": 0.04}]}, {\"start\": 223.466, \"end\": 243.114, \"text\": \"給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 223.466, \"end\": 223.626, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 223.626, 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996.809, \"end\": 996.909, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"n\", \"start\": 996.909, \"end\": 997.03, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"g\", \"start\": 997.03, \"end\": 997.25, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"e\", \"start\": 997.25, \"end\": 997.91, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 997.91, \"end\": 998.13, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 998.13, \"end\": 998.55, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"救\", \"start\": 998.55, \"end\": 998.791, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 998.791, \"end\": 998.991, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 998.991, \"end\": 999.371, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 999.371, \"end\": 999.691, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 999.691, \"end\": 999.711, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 1001.232, \"end\": 1011.335, \"text\": \"美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"美\", \"start\": 1001.232, 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1030.216, \"text\": \"但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1012.062, \"end\": 1012.162, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1012.162, \"end\": 1012.302, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1012.302, \"end\": 1012.903, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1012.903, \"end\": 1013.803, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 1013.803, \"end\": 1014.044, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 1014.044, \"end\": 1014.224, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"裁\", \"start\": 1014.224, \"end\": 1014.544, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1014.544, \"end\": 1015.024, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"紀\"}, {\"word\": \"錄\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 1015.024, \"end\": 1015.164, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 1015.164, \"end\": 1015.365, 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{\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1021.129, \"end\": 1021.81, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1021.81, \"end\": 1022.09, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 1022.09, \"end\": 1022.31, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 1022.31, \"end\": 1022.49, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1022.49, \"end\": 1023.211, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1023.211, \"end\": 1023.391, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 1023.391, \"end\": 1023.511, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1023.511, \"end\": 1023.631, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1023.631, \"end\": 1023.771, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 1023.771, \"end\": 1024.091, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 1024.091, \"end\": 1024.192, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1024.192, \"end\": 1024.392, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 1024.392, \"end\": 1024.512, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 1024.512, \"end\": 1024.692, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1024.692, \"end\": 1025.813, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 1025.813, \"end\": 1025.993, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1025.993, \"end\": 1026.093, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 1026.093, \"end\": 1026.273, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1026.273, \"end\": 1026.373, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 1026.373, \"end\": 1027.774, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1027.774, \"end\": 1027.894, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1027.894, \"end\": 1028.014, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 1028.014, \"end\": 1028.195, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 1028.195, \"end\": 1028.435, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1028.435, \"end\": 1028.555, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 1028.555, \"end\": 1029.195, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 1029.195, \"end\": 1029.336, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1029.336, \"end\": 1029.396, \"score\": 0.672}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1029.396, \"end\": 1029.756, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 1029.756, \"end\": 1029.976, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 1029.976, \"end\": 1030.096, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 1030.096, \"end\": 1030.196, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 1030.196, \"end\": 1030.216, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}]}, {\"start\": 1031.357, \"end\": 1041.243, \"text\": \"那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 1031.357, 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1293.673, \"end\": 1294.073, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 1294.073, \"end\": 1294.193, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1294.193, \"end\": 1294.473, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 1294.473, \"end\": 1294.493, \"score\": 0.924}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,669 --> 00:00:15,621\n請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請部長請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:23,388 --> 00:00:38,842\n時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人\n\n3\n00:00:42,164 --> 00:01:04,391\n那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多\n\n4\n00:01:05,598 --> 00:01:32,855\n平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存\n\n5\n00:01:34,119 --> 00:01:58,599\n但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛\n\n6\n00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:26,271\n我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭\n\n7\n00:02:27,948 --> 00:02:29,977\n也得不到一個具體的答案\n\n8\n00:02:31,141 --> 00:02:57,354\n那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天\n\n9\n00:02:58,294 --> 00:03:20,922\n接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢\n\n10\n00:03:23,347 --> 00:03:41,793\n呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少\n\n11\n00:03:43,466 --> 00:04:03,114\n給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億\n\n12\n00:04:10,514 --> 00:04:35,552\n對然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年36個月嗎\n\n13\n00:04:38,099 --> 00:05:03,049\n2016年底對就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事\n\n14\n00:05:04,586 --> 00:05:20,772\n給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界\n\n15\n00:05:23,018 --> 00:05:37,171\n有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到\n\n16\n00:05:38,632 --> 00:05:54,140\n我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少\n\n17\n00:05:55,472 --> 00:06:13,815\n跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字\n\n18\n00:06:15,243 --> 00:06:43,577\n你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報但是對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在對對那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計\n\n19\n00:06:44,978 --> 00:07:11,059\n難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定\n\n20\n00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:31,693\n因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲\n\n21\n00:07:32,745 --> 00:08:00,905\n他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼\n\n22\n00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:18,602\n我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久\n\n23\n00:08:19,761 --> 00:08:35,082\n我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞\n\n24\n00:08:36,072 --> 00:09:03,633\n我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看\n\n25\n00:09:04,634 --> 00:09:28,007\n美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分\n\n26\n00:09:28,627 --> 00:09:47,365\n那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道\n\n27\n00:09:49,179 --> 00:10:09,511\n這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定\n\n28\n00:10:10,765 --> 00:10:33,645\n跟文說明確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場\n\n29\n00:10:35,146 --> 00:10:53,279\n那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧\n\n30\n00:10:53,459 --> 00:11:17,580\n我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控\n\n31\n00:11:18,939 --> 00:11:46,792\n捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說\n\n32\n00:11:48,129 --> 00:12:07,080\n捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎\n\n33\n00:12:07,932 --> 00:12:22,697\n我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是\n\n34\n00:12:23,837 --> 00:12:38,466\n我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視\n\n35\n00:12:39,426 --> 00:13:00,577\n的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助\n\n36\n00:13:01,517 --> 00:13:20,867\n那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事\n\n37\n00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:46,013\n我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為\n\n38\n00:13:47,694 --> 00:14:09,527\n因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款\n\n39\n00:14:10,359 --> 00:14:23,163\n那我也沒有任何所謂的DebtBondage的問題那我根本沒有DebtBondage的問題那你美國就說我有DebtBondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說\n\n40\n00:14:30,029 --> 00:14:43,112\n你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了\n\n41\n00:14:44,809 --> 00:15:09,795\n雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準各種指引因為Forcedlabor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引列什麼標準不管是10項11項12項13項標準那些標準一定會比Forcedlabor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體\n\n42\n00:15:10,851 --> 00:15:14,988\n那我們要面對問題具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管\n\n43\n00:15:15,868 --> 00:15:42,688\n你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟\n\n44\n00:15:43,709 --> 00:16:10,514\n仲介或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果\n\n45\n00:16:11,374 --> 00:16:39,711\n但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對\n\n46\n00:16:41,232 --> 00:16:51,335\n美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的\n\n47\n00:16:52,062 --> 00:17:10,216\n但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現\n\n48\n00:17:11,357 --> 00:17:21,243\n那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎\n\n49\n00:17:27,149 --> 00:17:40,809\n第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們\n\n50\n00:17:41,890 --> 00:18:08,732\n還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則\n\n51\n00:18:10,034 --> 00:18:38,694\n但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明\n\n52\n00:18:40,055 --> 00:19:08,820\n其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用ILO的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊\n\n53\n00:19:10,566 --> 00:19:28,525\n其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態\n\n54\n00:19:30,404 --> 00:19:49,531\n那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的\n\n55\n00:19:50,091 --> 00:20:14,879\n剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯對\n\n56\n00:20:17,060 --> 00:20:42,860\n所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久\n\n57\n00:20:44,209 --> 00:21:10,166\n就可能要看一下我們會盡快吧對啊所謂盡快是多久再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後\n\n58\n00:21:11,182 --> 00:21:34,493\n一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔好謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n669\t15621\t請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長請洪部長\n23388\t38842\t時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人\n42164\t64391\t那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多\n65598\t92855\t平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存\n94119\t118599\t但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛\n119720\t146271\t我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭\n147948\t149977\t也得不到一個具體的答案\n151141\t177354\t那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天\n178294\t200922\t接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢\n203347\t221793\t呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少\n223466\t243114\t給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億\n250514\t275552\t對 然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的 扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年 36個月嗎\n278099\t303049\t2016年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事\n304586\t320772\t給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界\n323018\t337171\t有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到\n338632\t354140\t我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少\n355472\t373815\t跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字\n375243\t403577\t你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對對 那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計\n404978\t431059\t難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定\n431960\t451693\t因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲\n452745\t480905\t他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼\n481980\t498602\t我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久\n499761\t515082\t我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞\n516072\t543633\t我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看\n544634\t568007\t美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分\n568627\t587365\t那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道\n589179\t609511\t這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定\n610765\t633645\t跟文說明 確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場\n635146\t653279\t那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧\n653459\t677580\t我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控\n678939\t706792\t捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說\n708129\t727080\t捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎\n727932\t742697\t我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是\n743837\t758466\t我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視\n759426\t780577\t的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助\n781517\t800867\t那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事\n801960\t826013\t我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為\n827694\t849527\t因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款\n850359\t863163\t那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說\n870029\t883112\t你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了\n884809\t909795\t雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體\n910851\t914988\t那我們要面對問題 具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管\n915868\t942688\t你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟\n943709\t970514\t仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果\n971374\t999711\t但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對\n1001232\t1011335\t美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的\n1012062\t1030216\t但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現\n1031357\t1041243\t那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎\n1047149\t1060809\t第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們\n1061890\t1088732\t還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則\n1090034\t1118694\t但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明\n1120055\t1148820\t其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用 ILO 的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊\n1150566\t1168525\t其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態\n1170404\t1189531\t那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的\n1190091\t1214879\t剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對\n1217060\t1242860\t所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久\n1244209\t1270166\t就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛 那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後\n1271182\t1294493\t一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔 好 謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些\n","txt":"請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長請洪部長\n時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人\n那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多\n平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存\n但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛\n我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭\n也得不到一個具體的答案\n那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天\n接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢\n呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少\n給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億\n對 然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的 扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年 36個月嗎\n2016年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事\n給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界\n有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到\n我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少\n跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字\n你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對對 那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計\n難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定\n因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲\n他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼\n我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久\n我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞\n我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看\n美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分\n那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道\n這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定\n跟文說明 確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場\n那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧\n我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控\n捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說\n捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎\n我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是\n我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視\n的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助\n那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事\n我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為\n因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款\n那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說\n你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了\n雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體\n那我們要面對問題 具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管\n你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟\n仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果\n但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對\n美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的\n但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現\n那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎\n第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們\n還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則\n但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明\n其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用 ILO 的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊\n其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態\n那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的\n剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對\n所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久\n就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛 那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後\n一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔 好 謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.669 --> 00:15.621\n請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席麻煩有請部長請洪部長\n\n00:23.388 --> 00:38.842\n時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人\n\n00:42.164 --> 01:04.391\n那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多\n\n01:05.598 --> 01:32.855\n平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存\n\n01:34.119 --> 01:58.599\n但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛\n\n01:59.720 --> 02:26.271\n我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭\n\n02:27.948 --> 02:29.977\n也得不到一個具體的答案\n\n02:31.141 --> 02:57.354\n那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天\n\n02:58.294 --> 03:20.922\n接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢\n\n03:23.347 --> 03:41.793\n呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少\n\n03:43.466 --> 04:03.114\n給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億\n\n04:10.514 --> 04:35.552\n對然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年36個月嗎\n\n04:38.099 --> 05:03.049\n2016年底對就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事\n\n05:04.586 --> 05:20.772\n給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界\n\n05:23.018 --> 05:37.171\n有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到\n\n05:38.632 --> 05:54.140\n我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少\n\n05:55.472 --> 06:13.815\n跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字\n\n06:15.243 --> 06:43.577\n你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報但是對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在對對那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計\n\n06:44.978 --> 07:11.059\n難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定\n\n07:11.960 --> 07:31.693\n因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲\n\n07:32.745 --> 08:00.905\n他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼\n\n08:01.980 --> 08:18.602\n我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久\n\n08:19.761 --> 08:35.082\n我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞\n\n08:36.072 --> 09:03.633\n我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看\n\n09:04.634 --> 09:28.007\n美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分\n\n09:28.627 --> 09:47.365\n那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道\n\n09:49.179 --> 10:09.511\n這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定\n\n10:10.765 --> 10:33.645\n跟文說明確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場\n\n10:35.146 --> 10:53.279\n那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧\n\n10:53.459 --> 11:17.580\n我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控\n\n11:18.939 --> 11:46.792\n捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說\n\n11:48.129 --> 12:07.080\n捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎\n\n12:07.932 --> 12:22.697\n我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是\n\n12:23.837 --> 12:38.466\n我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視\n\n12:39.426 --> 13:00.577\n的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助\n\n13:01.517 --> 13:20.867\n那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事\n\n13:21.960 --> 13:46.013\n我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為\n\n13:47.694 --> 14:09.527\n因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款\n\n14:10.359 --> 14:23.163\n那我也沒有任何所謂的DebtBondage的問題那我根本沒有DebtBondage的問題那你美國就說我有DebtBondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說\n\n14:30.029 --> 14:43.112\n你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了\n\n14:44.809 --> 15:09.795\n雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準各種指引因為Forcedlabor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引列什麼標準不管是10項11項12項13項標準那些標準一定會比Forcedlabor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體\n\n15:10.851 --> 15:14.988\n那我們要面對問題具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管\n\n15:15.868 --> 15:42.688\n你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟\n\n15:43.709 --> 16:10.514\n仲介或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果\n\n16:11.374 --> 16:39.711\n但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對\n\n16:41.232 --> 16:51.335\n美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的\n\n16:52.062 --> 17:10.216\n但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現\n\n17:11.357 --> 17:21.243\n那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎\n\n17:27.149 --> 17:40.809\n第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們\n\n17:41.890 --> 18:08.732\n還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則\n\n18:10.034 --> 18:38.694\n但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明\n\n18:40.055 --> 19:08.820\n其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用ILO的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊\n\n19:10.566 --> 19:28.525\n其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態\n\n19:30.404 --> 19:49.531\n那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的\n\n19:50.091 --> 20:14.879\n剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯對\n\n20:17.060 --> 20:42.860\n所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久\n\n20:44.209 --> 21:10.166\n就可能要看一下我們會盡快吧對啊所謂盡快是多久再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後\n\n21:11.182 --> 21:34.493\n一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔好謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.669,"end":15.621,"text":"請黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席 麻煩有請部長請洪部長"},{"start":23.388,"end":38.842,"text":"時間的關係我直接就進入第一個是目前無薪假的人數節節攀升很多委員非常的關切目前到最新看到的data大概14人數是8500多人"},{"start":42.164,"end":64.391,"text":"那勞動部有沒有計算過說現在就這8500多人以這個當作基數來計算的話我們所提供政府給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼大概要支付多少錢每個月具體的數字平均每個人5000多"},{"start":65.598,"end":92.855,"text":"平均每個人五千多元所以大概平均一個月的話要四千四千多萬將近五千萬是嗎每個月我們再做一次我們再計算一下數據再提供我為什麼問這個問題無薪假的人數節節攀升當然反映出來目前產業界他們所面臨的一些困境那企業主當然想辦法生存"},{"start":94.119,"end":118.599,"text":"但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益這是為什麼我們在高關稅的特別條例裡面台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的輔助其實我們是最支持的那也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來所提出額度的數額那當然最後立法院三讀通過的版本那我們還是要尊重因為我們是少數嘛"},{"start":119.72,"end":146.271,"text":"我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了也沒辦法要尊重多數但是我還是因為目前的狀況看起來我很擔心我希望不要發生但是我必須要非常坦白的說我非常非常的擔心所謂的這個暫時性的高關稅雖然我們的行政院的立場說是暫時啦會暫時多久目前我看不到盡頭"},{"start":147.948,"end":149.977,"text":"也得不到一個具體的答案"},{"start":151.141,"end":177.354,"text":"那因此我非常擔心接下來延續大概還會延續多久那為什麼特別問你說每個月大概要支出多少錢因為我必須要比較務實的計算我們給勞動部相關的補助編列的相關的預算對於支持勞工這件事情錢到底是夠還是不夠這件事情蠻重要的所以這個數字可能部長今天"},{"start":178.294,"end":200.922,"text":"接受我的質詢的時候覺得我問的有一點太細太具體但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數你心裡一定要有數你心裡如果沒有數的話到時候編預算的時候等於全部都是用估的到底怎麼編以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈要支援給老公的大概多少錢"},{"start":203.347,"end":221.793,"text":"呃我們目前其實呃在特別預算裡面是150億是那全部給勞工嗎呃當然全部都給勞工有一些呃當然有有部分是會用作因為我們這些相關措施的宣導這個我了解其他部分當然都是給勞工對你給勞工的數額大概多少"},{"start":223.466,"end":243.114,"text":"給勞工的數額就是你說150億裡面有其他的然後要什麼宣導要行政作業費這個我都了解那實際給150億裡面是140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎就是當然除了這些行政跟宣導部分當然都是給勞工的所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢業務費是11億"},{"start":250.514,"end":275.552,"text":"對 然後150億先扣掉11億的業務費然後再來 業務費是11億那基本上其實我們大家這個都是要給勞工的錢這不是用在所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嗎扣掉勞保的 扣掉勞保的撥補的話大概130幾億大概130幾億這個期間用多久就是三年三年 36個月嗎"},{"start":278.099,"end":303.049,"text":"2016年底 對 就是這個特別預算特別條例的實施期間所以總共幾個月兩年多 兩年半所以總共是18個月20是30個月30個月兩年多30個月是3億多所以大概一年多少錢不是我沒有要問這麼基本的數學但我只提醒你一件事"},{"start":304.586,"end":320.772,"text":"給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在五星價的人數可能會隨著現在五星價的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係我這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂第二個部分產業界"},{"start":323.018,"end":337.171,"text":"有發出這樣子的聲音認為說勞動部就跟他們對接跟他們座談了解僱主跟勞工的需求時間太晚了這個媒體有報導我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到也有看到"},{"start":338.632,"end":354.14,"text":"我現在比較關心的事情是說你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候你也承認現在所謂的減班休息也好或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好有出現違法的黑數你們有沒有估計過這個違法的黑數大概有多少"},{"start":355.472,"end":373.815,"text":"跟文說明這個所謂第一個有幾種狀況第一個狀況是如果勞工並沒有同因為減班休息是需要是兩雙方同意的那如果勞工沒有同意就是禁制減班休息當然就是直接是違法的狀況是那多少數字"},{"start":375.243,"end":403.577,"text":"你們有估計有任何的idea這所謂的黑數大概有多少人因為你有幾種狀況一個是你剛剛所講的老公沒同意嘛第二個是僱主跟老公自己私下講完了以後他們也沒通報嘛會有一些通報 但是 對那這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎因為我關心的是這些人的權益啦會有存在 對對 那我知道有存在我現在的問題是你知道有估過大概有多少人嗎還是沒有辦法估計"},{"start":404.978,"end":431.059,"text":"難以估計我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴說僱主積錢工資但是我們積錢工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息對 但我的問題還是一樣就是勞動部願意公開承認說這個有黑數我覺得值得肯定"},{"start":431.96,"end":451.693,"text":"因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題你如果連問題的存在本身之否認的話那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了第二個事情我關心的事情是說沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少這個數字為什麼重要因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲"},{"start":452.745,"end":480.905,"text":"他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到他可能迫於雇主的壓力可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係可能擔心直接就被炒了各式各樣的原因存在這樣子的黑數那為什麼這件事情重要除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外就下一個政策的議題政策的議題你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法那對於這樣子一個呼籲勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼"},{"start":481.98,"end":498.602,"text":"我想勞動團體這樣呼籲我們當然願意來做各種評估那你覺得要評估多久可能我覺得給我們一點時間我們來評估一下相關法規面對 我覺得願意給勞動部一點時間但我需要勞動部告訴我說你們的一點時間大概是多久"},{"start":499.761,"end":515.082,"text":"我們可能一個月的時間一個月的時間可以喔好那就一個月的時間那剛剛也有委員開始關心到有關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件我老實講我看到這樣子的一個新聞"},{"start":516.072,"end":543.633,"text":"我非常的震驚因為捷安特它自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象其實不僅僅是在台灣在全世界都看得到甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車的比賽當中我們都看得到捷安特他們的商標 他們的Logo甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候我老實說我非常非常的驚訝那當然驚訝歸驚訝進一步就要去看"},{"start":544.634,"end":568.007,"text":"美國他們CBP他們對於我們的捷安特所提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎他的證據到底是什麼到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了的一些落差因此我就一頁一頁下去去看第一個就是所謂的濫用弱勢處境的這個部分"},{"start":568.627,"end":587.365,"text":"那捷安特他們自己有他們做他們的回應包括了透明僱傭的流程自由生活的選擇保障人身的自由以及申訴管道針對捷安特他們所做出來這些回應勞動部有沒有去了解說捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到還是捷安特在胡說八道"},{"start":589.179,"end":609.511,"text":"這部分應該是吉安特的聲明是 他聲明說我有做到這些事那我們從勞動主管機關的立場我們當然要去了解吉安特你說的是真的還是假的你是繼續欺騙消費者 社會大眾還是你講的是真的因為他如果講的是真的那我們就要進一步去問說當初美國是怎麼認定"},{"start":610.765,"end":633.645,"text":"跟文說明 確實在美國他在做這個強迫攔戶戰扣令的這個角度他們其實是用ILO的標準對 我沒有在質疑標準現在我在問的是事實層面的事情我們在九月底的時候其實有跟台中市一起進場"},{"start":635.146,"end":653.279,"text":"那當然我們那次並不是做勞動檢查那我們其實也還有再請捷安特是不是可以再補一些資料給我們比較能夠去做相關的這個到目前為止啦就是捷安特他們單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定吧"},{"start":653.459,"end":677.58,"text":"我想他們當然是他們的聲明這部分當然我們尊重他們的聲明他從他企業的角度去談這件事情那我們有進場去做一些了解但是也還有一些資料其實要再請吉安特這邊來做一些提供所以我關心的還是最後我關心的還是同樣的一件事情美國政府對吉安特有指控"},{"start":678.939,"end":706.792,"text":"捷安特可能認為有誤會可能認為指控不實所以他們發他們的聲明每一個人都可以發聲明要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由但我們從政府的角度上面來看特別是從主管接官的角度上面來看我們要求的是那客觀的真實是什麼譬如說我其實不太想講抽象的東西因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實解決問題一點幫助也沒有譬如說"},{"start":708.129,"end":727.08,"text":"捷安特在他們的聲明裡面所講說他們的移工可以自由登記外宿使用手機沒有任何隔離或限制這是他的聲明嘛那我從保障移工權益的角度來看那我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎"},{"start":727.932,"end":742.697,"text":"我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料OK 那你們大概提供資料的這個程序大概要多久這當然要看捷安特所以這個是一個自由的調查跟跟我說我們並不是用一個調查的角度是"},{"start":743.837,"end":758.466,"text":"我們基本上我們進場是希望能夠因為其實在強迫活動這個議題上從今年上半年其實我們其實就比過去更加審慎的在看待也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視"},{"start":759.426,"end":780.577,"text":"的確現在在國際上包括供應鏈包括品牌包括我們的重要的夥伴的貿易國家其實對強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的包括認定的標準也一直在強化我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避的空間所以我們其實進場是希望能夠給加安特一些協助"},{"start":781.517,"end":800.867,"text":"那這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體的改善的方案能夠盡早來化解美方的這個指控包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮我先先停一下啦因為剛剛部長的回覆其實把很多東西全部混在一起我一樣一樣講第一個標準是什麼是一回事"},{"start":801.96,"end":826.013,"text":"我們如果有標準那那個標準是不是符合國際規範甚至我們沒有標準這是一個層次的問題那第二個在我們既有的標準下面他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準這是第二層次的問題這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準含色的問題我現在其實比較關心的事情是事實層面跟標準含色的問題因為"},{"start":827.694,"end":849.527,"text":"因為時間的關係我走的比較快一點我帶你一樣一樣看吉安特他們被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應兩邊有很多出現巨大的落差基本上吉安特的聲明就講說其實沒有你們所講的那樣子的狀態譬如說就扣款的部分我就沒有任何扣款"},{"start":850.359,"end":863.163,"text":"那我也沒有任何所謂的Debt Bondage的問題那我根本沒有Debt Bondage的問題那你美國就說我有Debt Bondage的問題我當然不服氣啊我會發聲明啊說我根本沒有這個狀況你為什麼說我有這個狀況那現在核心的問題就變成了是說"},{"start":870.029,"end":883.112,"text":"你要他改善是要有這個狀況不符合標準所以我請你改善但我現在發現我們連最防的mental的問題似乎都還沒有理清他到底有沒有違反那個標準本身可能就是個問題了"},{"start":884.809,"end":909.795,"text":"雖然針對所謂強迫勞動你說有各種標準 各種指引因為Forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象不確定的法律概念你有很多指引去看但是我更關心的事情是說不管你列什麼指引 列什麼標準不管是10項 11項 12項 13項標準那些標準一定會比Forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體"},{"start":910.851,"end":914.988,"text":"那我們要面對問題 具體的討論問題就是說今天我不管"},{"start":915.868,"end":942.688,"text":"你列了幾項標準我關心的事情是針對每一項標準你是不是在客觀上面有違反或者是你客觀上面是有符合把這些事情都釐清了以後我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話要怎麼改善我直接可以講說我們其實有請他還要再多提供一些資料尤其是比方說跟"},{"start":943.709,"end":970.514,"text":"仲介 或者是這些相關的資訊其實還帶他再把這資料補完沒有關係我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完因為我看完了這些東西他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規我們現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範在救福法裡面就有很明確的規範甚至在勞基法裡面有明確的規範你違反了那些規範自然而然有那個法律效果"},{"start":971.374,"end":999.711,"text":"但是我後來去看他們的整個裁罰的記錄他們除了他們除了那個勞動來來來 你看一下除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外這個大概一年被罰一次啦大概每年去檢查一次嘛檢查就沒符合大概一年被罰一次然後裁罰的金額3萬到新台幣30萬大概就是這個Range但是救福法裡面只針對"},{"start":1001.232,"end":1011.335,"text":"美方所指控的一頭阿菇的東西裡面其中的一項還有很多項喔對照到我們現行有效的法律它是有法律效果的"},{"start":1012.062,"end":1030.216,"text":"但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄我完全沒有看到說他們有任何違反的紀錄或者是被裁罰的紀錄啊這中間顯然是有落差那這個落差有兩個可能的理由第一個理由是說因為地方主管機關沒有認真地去做勞檢所以有違反但沒有發現"},{"start":1031.357,"end":1041.243,"text":"那第二種狀況是什麼第二種狀況人家有去了解了解了以後去認定或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能現在勞動部掌握了嗎"},{"start":1047.149,"end":1060.809,"text":"第一個我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次啦我認為我們現在主要兩件事情必須做啦第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分這是第一個層次第二件事情是的確我們"},{"start":1061.89,"end":1088.732,"text":"還是必須來回頭檢視我們的法規那在這些法規調整裡面的需要這部分我們自己的法規我覺得也必須要檢視不是 部長不好意思喔我講的比較直接一點你現在都還是在講抽象的問題剛剛我的問題很具體啦就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事你如果做了這些事情的話接下來會有罰則"},{"start":1090.034,"end":1118.694,"text":"但我現在客觀上面看到的除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外然後每一年大概被罰一次其他他們所指控違法的事項我講的不是現行法沒規定喔我們現行法就有規定也有罰則我看不到任何裁罰的記錄所以我現在的問題是我現在的問題是是有去檢查然後發現沒有違反還是根本沒有去檢查跟黃委員說明"},{"start":1120.055,"end":1148.82,"text":"其實美方的指控並不是用台灣的法規去指控這個我了解是我有了解他是用 ILO 的標準跟要求來做指控所以我一直跟你講我現在就不是在講標準的問題我現在講事實的問題嘛所謂事實的問題是說如果加班的工時過長違法加班然後或者是不管是工時過長還是該給加班費沒有給這個在我們的勞基法裡面有罰則啊"},{"start":1150.566,"end":1168.525,"text":"其他的事項在我們的救護法裡面有罰則啊現在不是說你已經確定一個事實含涉兩套不同的法規出現不同結果的問題喔是你有同一個事實可能兩套法規基本上雖然他們標準不一樣但是都會出現違法的狀態"},{"start":1170.404,"end":1189.531,"text":"那如果有這樣子的狀況的話我期待的是在台灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的記錄但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西所以我才請教部長是是有去勞檢檢查沒有問題還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查因為確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的"},{"start":1190.091,"end":1214.879,"text":"剛剛你也說過你們有跟台中市政府這邊做勾起嗎對 但是我的意思說因為過去因為他的這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年2024年的這個狀況只有兩年的期間也沒有很長那當然因為很多的因為相關的檢查在台中市是由這個地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查所以當然目前檢查出來的記錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況沒有錯 對"},{"start":1217.06,"end":1242.86,"text":"所以所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛台中市政府現在是這樣說的是這樣好了啦剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛把一些事實要釐清嘛那主席也站起來了你們還需要多久其實因為我們現在就持續請這個是我理解所以大概還要多久"},{"start":1244.209,"end":1270.166,"text":"就可能要看一下 我們會盡快吧對啊 所謂盡快是多久 再一個月夠嗎應該我們來一個月的可以嘛 那是不是也請主席等一下採視一下就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況因為這件事情攸關台灣的勞全保障攸關我們對美的貿易 也攸關台灣的國際形象是不是可以請勞動部一個月後"},{"start":1271.182,"end":1294.493,"text":"一個月後提出一個報告給關心的委員們這樣可以嗎可以喔 好 謝謝請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告有關於剛剛黃國昌委員要求的那還有另外有關於你們目前為止的這些"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時5分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。時間的關係，我直接就進入主題。第一個，依目前無薪假的人數節節攀升，很多委員也非常的關切，依目前最新看到的data，實施的人數大概是八千五百多人，勞動部有沒有計算過，以現在這八千五百多人當作基數來計算的話，政府提供給勞工薪資差額的補助或者是補貼，每個月大概要支出多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：具體的數字是平均每個人五千多。"],["黃委員國昌：平均每個人五千多元，所以平均一個月的話大概要四千多萬、將近5,000萬，是嗎？每個月。"],["洪部長申翰：我們計算一下數字再提供。"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼問這個問題？無薪假的人數節節攀升，當然反映出來目前產業界所面臨的一些困境，企業主當然會想辦法生存，但我們不希望他們犧牲勞工的權益，這是為什麼在高關稅的特別條例裡面，其實台灣民眾黨黨團對於要給勞工相關的補助，我們是最支持的。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：這也就是為什麼我們主動增加行政院本來提出的數額。當然，最後立法院三讀通過的版本我們還是要尊重，因為我們是少數，我們台灣民眾黨黨團的版本表決輸了就輸了，也沒辦法，要尊重多數。","就目前的狀況看起來，我很擔心，我希望不要發生，但是我必須要非常坦白地說，我非常非常地擔心所謂的暫時性高關稅，雖然行政院的立場說是暫時的，但會暫時多久？目前我看不到盡頭，也得不到一個具體的答案，因此我非常擔心接下來會延續以及大概還會延續多久。","為什麼特別問你每個月大概要支出多少錢？因為我必須要比較務實的計算，我們給勞動部相關的補助、編列的相關預算，對於支持勞工這件事情，錢到底是夠還是不夠，這件事情滿重要的，所以這個數字可能部長今天接受我質詢的時候會覺得我問得有一點太細、太具體，但我會建議這個數字你心裡一定要有數，你心裡如果沒有數的話，到時候編預算等於全部都是用估的，到底怎麼編？以目前你們計畫在未來一年當中準備好的子彈，要支援給勞工的大概多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們目前在特別預算裡面是150億。"],["黃委員國昌：是，全部給勞工嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都給勞工？"],["洪部長申翰：有部分是會用於我們在相關措施的宣導，其他部分當然都是給勞工。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解，你給勞工的數額大概多少？"],["洪部長申翰：給勞工的數額？"],["黃委員國昌：就是你說150億裡面有其他的，要什麼宣導、要行政作業費，這個我都了解，150億裡面140億都是直接落到勞工口袋嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：除了這些行政跟宣導部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我就是要問數字。"],["洪部長申翰：當然都是給勞工的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以那些行政宣導費用大概多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：業務費是11億，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：150億先扣掉11億的業務費？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：再來呢？"],["洪部長申翰：業務費是11億，基本上我們這個都是要給勞工的錢，這不是用在……"],["黃委員國昌：所以大概139億是給勞工的錢嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：扣掉勞保撥補的話，大概一百三十幾億。"],["黃委員國昌：這個期間用多久？"],["洪部長申翰：就是3年。"],["黃委員國昌：3年，36月嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：到116年底，就是這個特別條例的實施期間。"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共幾個月？"],["洪部長申翰：兩年多，兩年半左右。"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共是30個月？"],["洪部長申翰：對，兩年多。"],["黃委員國昌：30個月一百三十億多，所以一年大概多少錢？不是，我沒有要問這麼基本的數學，但我只是要提醒你一件事，給勞工的錢夠不夠可能會隨著現在無薪假的人數而產生非常積極的對應關係，這樣講我相信你應該可以聽得懂。","第二個部分，產業界有發出這樣子的聲音，認為勞動部跟他們對接、跟他們座談、了解雇主跟勞工需求的時間太晚了，這個媒體有報導了，我相信這個聲音部長應該有聽到、也有看到。我現在比較關心的事情是，你在媒體接受媒體訪問的時候也承認，現在所謂的減班休息也好，或者是一般俗稱的無薪假也好，有出現違法的黑數，你們有沒有估計過違法的黑數大概有多少？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，有幾種狀況，第一個狀況是，如果勞工並沒有同意，因為減班休息是需要雙方同意的，如果勞工沒有同意就逕自減班休息，當然就直接是違法的狀況，至於多少數字……"],["黃委員國昌：你們有估計或有任何的idea所謂的黑數大概有多少人嗎？因為你有幾種狀況，一個是你剛剛所講的勞工沒同意，第二個是雇主跟勞工自己私下講完了以後，他們也沒通報。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這個黑數你有估計過多少人嗎？因為我關心的是這些人的權益。"],["洪部長申翰：會有存在。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道有存在，我現在的問題是，你知道或有估過大概多少人嗎？還是沒有辦法估計？難以估計？"],["黃司長琦雅：跟委員報告，我們目前在法制上面是可以了解勞工申訴雇主積欠工資……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我了解。"],["黃司長琦雅：但是我們積欠工資的理由不一定是事業單位沒有通報減班休息。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但我的問題還是一樣，勞動部願意公開承認這個有黑數，我覺得值得肯定，因為你一定要面對問題才能解決問題，你如果連問題的存在本身是否認的話，那這整件事情接下來就不要幹了。","第二個事情，我關心的是說，沒有通報減班休息的違法黑數到底有多少？這個數字為什麼重要？因為涉及到有多少人的權益在這個過程當中被犧牲，他應該拿到的東西沒有拿到，他可能迫於雇主的壓力、可能迫於跟雇主之間的關係、可能擔心直接就被抄了等各式各樣的原因，因此存在這樣的黑數。為什麼這件事情重要？除了我剛剛所講的涉及到最基層勞工他們的保護以外，就下一個政策的議題，你們應該有聽到有勞工團體說應該要強制通報入法，對於這樣子的呼籲，勞動部目前的立場大概是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我想勞工團體這樣呼籲，我們當然願意來做各種評估。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得要評估多久？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得給我們一點時間，我們來評估一下相關的法規面。"],["黃委員國昌：我絕對願意給勞動部一點時間，但我需要勞動部告訴我「一點時間」大概是多久？"],["洪部長申翰：可能一個月的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月的時間？可以喔！好，那就一個月的時間。","剛剛也有委員開始關心到關於捷安特強迫勞動的事件，老實講我看到這樣子的新聞非常的震驚，因為捷安特自己本身的品牌形象跟企業形象，其實不僅僅是在臺灣，在全世界都看得到，甚至在非常多重要的國際自行車比賽當中，我們都看得到捷安特的商標、logo，甚至他們贊助的選手在發光發熱，因此看到這樣子的新聞的時候，老實說，我非常非常的驚訝。","當然，驚訝歸驚訝，進一步就要去看美國他們的CBP對於我們捷安特提出來的指控是不是有什麼重要的事實基礎？它的證據到底是什麼？到底是我們的捷安特真的出了問題，還是我們的法規跟美國的要求彼此之間出現了一些落差？因此，我就一頁一頁下去看，第一個，就所謂濫用弱勢處境的這個部分，捷安特自己有做回應，包括了透明僱用的流程、自由生活的選擇、保障人身的自由以及申訴管道。針對捷安特所做出來的這些回應，勞動部有沒有去了解捷安特說的這些回應的確捷安特有做到？還是捷安特在胡說八道？"],["洪部長申翰：這部分應該是捷安特的聲明啦！"],["黃委員國昌：是，它聲明我有做到這些事嘛！我們從勞動主管機關的立場，當然要去了解捷安特說的是真的還是假的嘛，你是繼續欺騙消費者、社會大眾，還是你講的是真的？因為它如果講的是真的，那我們就要進一步去問當初美國是怎麼認定嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實美國在做強迫勞動暫扣令的角度，他們其實是用ILO的標準……"],["黃委員國昌：對，我沒有在質疑標準，現在我在問的是事實層面的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：其實我們在9月底的時候，有跟臺中市一起進廠，但是我們那次並不是做勞動檢查。我們其實也還有再請捷安特，是不是可以再補一些資料給我們，比較能夠去做相關的……因為我們是站在協助的角度。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止，捷安特單方所發表的聲明是不是客觀的事實我們還沒有辦法確定嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們尊重他們聲明的這部分，它是從企業的角度去談這件事情，我們有進廠去做一些了解，但是其實也還有一些資料要再請捷安特來提供。我們的角度……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我關心的還是同樣的一件事情，美國政府對捷安特有指控，捷安特可能認為有誤會、可能認為指控不實，所以他們發聲明，但每一個人都可以發聲明，要發聲明講什麼話那是每一個人的自由，但我們從政府的角度上面來看，特別是從主管機關的角度上面來看，我們要求的是客觀的真實是什麼？我其實不太想講抽象的東西，因為講抽象的東西對於釐清事實、解決問題一點幫助也沒有，譬如說，捷安特在他們的聲明裡面講述，他們的移工可以自由登記外宿、使用手機，沒有任何隔離或限制，這是它的聲明。我從保障移工權益的角度來看，我關心的事情是捷安特的這個聲明是不是真的？這件事情你們現在已經了解完了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們還在請捷安特要提供一些資料。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，提供資料的程序大概要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：這個當然要看捷安特。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是一個自由的調查？"],["洪部長申翰：我們並不是用一個調查的角度，基本上，我們進廠是希望能夠……其實在強迫勞動這個議題上，從今年上半年我們就比過去更加審慎的在看待，也包括跟相關的廠商品牌了解他們現在對這件事情的重視。的確現在在國際上面，包括供應鏈、包括品牌、包括我們重要的貿易夥伴國家，其實對於強迫勞動的重視程度是一直在提高的，認定的標準也一直在強化，所以我認為我們其實是沒有太多迴避空間，因此我們進廠是希望能夠給捷安特一些協助，這些協助包括他們要怎麼提出比較具體改善的方案，能夠儘早來化解美方的指控，包括對於強迫勞動的疑慮……"],["黃委員國昌：我先停一下，因為剛剛部長的回復其實把很多東西全部混在一起，我一樣一樣講，第一個，標準是什麼，這是一回事，我們如果有標準，那個標準是不是符合國際規範？甚至我們沒有標準，這是一個層次的問題；第二個，在我們既有的標準下面，他們沒有符合我們現在既有標準，這是第二層次的問題，這個牽涉到事實的認定跟標準涵攝的問題。其實我現在比較關心的事情，是事實層面跟標準涵攝的問題，因為時間的關係，我走得比較快一點，我帶你一樣一樣看。","捷安特被美國指控的跟他們自己的回應這兩邊有很多巨大的落差，基本上捷安特的聲明就講其實沒有你們所講那樣子的狀態。譬如說就扣款的部分，我就沒有任何扣款，我也沒有任何所謂的debt bondage的問題，我根本沒有debt bondage的問題，但美國卻說我有debt bondage的問題，我當然不服氣啊！我會發聲明說我根本沒有這個狀況，你為什麼說我有這個狀況。現在核心的問題就變成了是你要他改善，是要有這個狀況、不符合標準，所以我請你改善，但我現在發現我們連最fundamental的問題似乎都還沒有釐清，他到底有沒有違反那個標準的本身可能就是個問題了。雖然針對所謂強迫勞動，你說有各種標準、各種指引，因為forced labor本來就是一個相對抽象、不確定的法律概念，你有很多指引去看，但是我更關心的事情是不管你列什麼指引、什麼標準，不管是10項、11項、12項、13項標準，那些標準一定會比forced labor這個不確定的法律概念來得更具體。","我們要面對問題及具體的討論問題就是今天我不管你列了幾項標準，我關心的事情是針對每一項標準，你是不是在客觀上面有違反，或者是你客觀上面是有符合，把這些事情都釐清了以後，我們才有健康的討論這件事情的基礎，也才知道如果捷安特要求他改善的話，要怎麼改善……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我直接可以跟你講，我們其實有請他們還要再多提供一些資料。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["洪部長申翰：尤其比方跟仲介，或者是這些相關的資訊，其實還要待他們再把這些資料補過來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我繼續把我剛剛要講的事情跟部長說完，因為我看完了這些東西，他們所指控的內容就會對照到我們現在現行的法規，現行的法規有的就有很明確的規範，就服法裡面就有很明確的規範啊！甚至在勞基法裡面也有明確的規範，你違反了那些規範，自然而然有那個法律效果，但是我後來去看他們整個裁罰的紀錄，他們除了勞動……來，你看一下，除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項，沒有符合規定必要的安全衛生設備及措施之外，這個大概一年被罰一次，大概每一年去檢查一次嘛！檢查就沒符合，大概一年被罰一次，裁罰的金額新臺幣3萬到30萬元，大概就是這個range。但是就服法裡面只針對美方所指控一大堆的東西裡面其中的一項，還有很多項喔！對照到我們現行有效的法律，它是有法律效果的，但是我從過去他們被裁罰的紀錄，我完全沒有看到他們有任何違反的紀錄，或者是被裁罰的紀錄，這中間顯然是有落差。","這個落差有兩個可能的理由：第一個理由，因為地方主管機關沒有認真的去做勞檢，所以有違反，但沒有發現；第二種狀況，人家有去勞檢，勞檢了以後去認定，或者是根本沒有發現他有任何違法的狀態。這兩種狀況是哪一種狀況比較有可能？現在勞動部掌握了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個是我覺得這裡面有好幾個層次。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們現在主要有兩件事情必須做，第一件事情是我們要有輔導跟協助指引的部分，這是第一個層次；第二件事情是的確我們還是必須要回頭檢視我們的法規，在這些法規調整裡面的需要，我們自己的法規我覺得必須要檢視。"],["黃委員國昌：不是。部長，不好意思，我講得比較直接一點，你現在都還是在講抽象的問題，剛剛我問題很具體啦！就是他們所指控捷安特違法的部分，有很多在我們的現行法是有規範你不可以做這些事，你如果做了這些事情的話，接下來會有罰則。但我現在客觀上面看到的，除了職業安全衛生法第六條第一項之外，每一年大概被罰一次，其他他們所指控違法的事項，我講的不是現行法沒規定，我們現行法就有規定也有罰則，但我看不到任何裁罰的紀錄。現在的問題是……"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題是有去檢查，然後發現沒有違反，還是根本沒有去檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：跟黃委員說明，其實美方的指控並不是用臺灣的法規去指控……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我有了解。"],["洪部長申翰：他們是用ILO的標準跟要求來做裁處。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我一直跟你講，我現在就不是在講標準的問題，我現在講事實的問題，所謂事實的問題是如果加班的工時過長、違法加班，或者不管是工時過長，還是該給加班費沒有給，這些在我們的勞基法裡面都有罰則，其他的事項在我們的就服法裡面也有罰則啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：現在不是說你已經確定一個事實涵攝兩套不同的法規，出現不同結果的問題喔！是你有同一個事實，雖然兩套法規的標準不一樣，但是都會出現違法的狀態，如果有這樣子的狀況的話，我期待的是，在臺灣這邊我應該會看到很多認定違法的紀錄，但是現實上面沒有看到這個東西，所以我才請教部長，是有去勞檢做檢查沒有問題，還是根本連檢查都沒有檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：確實有些部分因為是地方勞政單位去檢查的……"],["黃委員國昌：是，剛剛你也說過，你們有跟臺中市政府做勾稽嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：對。但是我的意思是，因為這個指控的狀況大概應該是在2023年、2024年的狀況……"],["黃委員國昌：只有2年的期間，也沒有很長。"],["洪部長申翰：對。因為很多相關的檢查在臺中市是由地方政府的勞政單位在做檢查，所以檢查出來的紀錄是目前現在委員秀出來的這個狀況，沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：是。所以他們去檢查了以後沒有發現其他違法的狀況，只有現在這個職業安全衛生法的狀況嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：臺中市政府現在是這樣說的。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這樣好了！剛剛部長說你們還需要一些時間嘛！要把一些事實釐清，主席也站起來了，你們還需要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：因為我們現在持續請巨大把一些資料再補過來。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我理解，所以大概還要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：這可能要看一下，我們會儘快吧！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所謂儘快是多久？再一個月夠嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們應該一個月。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嘛！是不是也請主席等一下裁示一下，就勞動部他們一個月以後了解的狀況，因為這件事情攸關臺灣的勞權保障、攸關我們對美的貿易，也攸關臺灣的國際形象，是不是可以請勞動部一個月後提出一份報告給關心的委員們，這樣可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。"],["主席：有關於剛剛黃國昌委員所要求的資料，請勞動部一個月後提供給黃國昌委員辦公室以及本委員會的委員們一份報告。另外，還有關於你們目前為止的這些相關法規，就是剛剛林淑芬委員要求的，也一併提供給本委員會委員們的辦公室，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時34分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}