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00:00:49,094\n請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年\n\n2\n00:00:51,018 --> 00:01:20,661\n我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整\n\n3\n00:01:21,536 --> 00:01:49,871\n沒有一個嘛我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成\n\n4\n00:01:51,004 --> 00:02:17,092\n很多人還恢復不了八成喔跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊對不對法定你的法律審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經上次已經因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成\n\n5\n00:02:20,527 --> 00:02:39,584\n這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯4月25號就應該\n\n6\n00:02:42,086 --> 00:02:59,480\n結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆\n\n7\n00:03:01,465 --> 00:03:27,275\n所以我們必須而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法那是根據警察條例所以內政部老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼你剛剛都知道法定預算\n\n8\n00:03:28,659 --> 00:03:56,430\n總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會\n\n9\n00:03:58,493 --> 00:04:23,979\n你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來\n\n10\n00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:40,687\n我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了\n\n11\n00:04:44,687 --> 00:05:08,370\n你從4月29號開會5月165月286月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部\n\n12\n00:05:09,790 --> 00:05:24,465\n我不是這樣講我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責\n\n13\n00:05:34,921 --> 00:05:59,988\n你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾\n\n14\n00:06:00,928 --> 00:06:27,977\n系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯\n\n15\n00:06:29,437 --> 00:06:52,474\n第一個你已經嚴重違法拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你你現在拖到現在沒給來必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給你到時候要補嗎這是一個第一要補利息要不要算進去他現在問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定就是法定預算已經夠了啊\n\n16\n00:06:53,254 --> 00:07:06,414\n所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤\n\n17\n00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:36,482\n什麼叫不會當年入片他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後哇你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定\n\n18\n00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:58,497\n然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部\n\n19\n00:07:58,917 --> 00:08:17,025\n到現在算不出來你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要我問你好那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個理事是要什麼\n\n20\n00:08:22,727 --> 00:08:31,455\n我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心\n\n21\n00:08:35,441 --> 00:08:57,726\n是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家\n\n22\n00:08:59,790 --> 00:09:27,308\n你少算你現在給四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點你拖到明年才算好喔就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年兩年後比較便宜是不是\n\n23\n00:09:28,407 --> 00:09:51,153\n去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡\n\n24\n00:09:53,607 --> 00:10:03,565\n剛剛秘書長也承認嘛法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛\n\n25\n00:10:05,328 --> 00:10:29,786\n蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起對不起全國民眾他竟然講說我申請釋憲按個按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了\n\n26\n00:10:30,765 --> 00:10:45,976\n都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了\n\n27\n00:10:47,912 --> 00:11:13,289\n勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧如果怕你在講你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產結果你又沒有積極去爭取\n\n28\n00:11:16,244 --> 00:11:28,395\n一起努力啦更重要的我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦已經法定預算過了守法而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n26527\t49094\t請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年\n51018\t80661\t我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整\n81536\t109871\t沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成\n111004\t137092\t很多人還恢復不了八成喔 跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院 你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊 那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊 對不對 法定你的法律 審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經 上次已經 因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成\n140527\t159584\t這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛 對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯 4月25號就應該\n162086\t179480\t結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告 當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆\n181465\t207275\t所以我們必須 而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法 那是根據警察條例所以內政部 老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統 各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼 你剛剛都知道法定預算\n208659\t236430\t總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會\n238493\t263979\t你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來\n268240\t280687\t我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了\n284687\t308370\t你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部\n309790\t324465\t我不是這樣講 我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後 那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部 當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責\n334921\t359988\t你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾\n360928\t387977\t系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯\n389437\t412474\t第一個 你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給 你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補 利息要不要算進去他現在 問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定 就是法定預算已經夠了啊\n413254\t426414\t所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤\n430400\t456482\t什麼叫不會當年入片 他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後 哇 你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念 基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久 你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定\n457790\t478497\t然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部\n478917\t497025\t到現在算不出來 你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你 賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理事是要什麼\n502727\t511455\t我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心\n515441\t537726\t是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家\n539790\t567308\t你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔 你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點 你拖到明年才算好喔 就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是\n568407\t591153\t去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡\n593607\t603565\t剛剛秘書長也承認嘛 法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼 不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算 法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛\n605328\t629786\t蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起 對不起全國民眾他竟然講說 我申請釋憲 按個 按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了\n630765\t645976\t都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了\n647912\t673289\t勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產 人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年 已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧 如果怕你在講 你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶 你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊 好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產 結果你又沒有積極去爭取\n676244\t688395\t一起努力啦 更重要的 我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝\n","txt":"請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年\n我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整\n沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成\n很多人還恢復不了八成喔 跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院 你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊 那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊 對不對 法定你的法律 審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經 上次已經 因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成\n這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛 對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯 4月25號就應該\n結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告 當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆\n所以我們必須 而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法 那是根據警察條例所以內政部 老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統 各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼 你剛剛都知道法定預算\n總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會\n你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來\n我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了\n你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部\n我不是這樣講 我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後 那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部 當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責\n你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾\n系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯\n第一個 你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給 你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補 利息要不要算進去他現在 問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定 就是法定預算已經夠了啊\n所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤\n什麼叫不會當年入片 他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後 哇 你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念 基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久 你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定\n然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部\n到現在算不出來 你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你 賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理事是要什麼\n我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心\n是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家\n你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔 你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點 你拖到明年才算好喔 就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是\n去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡\n剛剛秘書長也承認嘛 法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼 不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算 法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛\n蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起 對不起全國民眾他竟然講說 我申請釋憲 按個 按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了\n都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了\n勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產 人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年 已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧 如果怕你在講 你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶 你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊 好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產 結果你又沒有積極去爭取\n一起努力啦 更重要的 我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:26.527 --> 00:49.094\n請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年\n\n00:51.018 --> 01:20.661\n我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整\n\n01:21.536 --> 01:49.871\n沒有一個嘛我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成\n\n01:51.004 --> 02:17.092\n很多人還恢復不了八成喔跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊對不對法定你的法律審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經上次已經因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成\n\n02:20.527 --> 02:39.584\n這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯4月25號就應該\n\n02:42.086 --> 02:59.480\n結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆\n\n03:01.465 --> 03:27.275\n所以我們必須而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法那是根據警察條例所以內政部老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼你剛剛都知道法定預算\n\n03:28.659 --> 03:56.430\n總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會\n\n03:58.493 --> 04:23.979\n你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來\n\n04:28.240 --> 04:40.687\n我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了\n\n04:44.687 --> 05:08.370\n你從4月29號開會5月165月286月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部\n\n05:09.790 --> 05:24.465\n我不是這樣講我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責\n\n05:34.921 --> 05:59.988\n你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾\n\n06:00.928 --> 06:27.977\n系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯\n\n06:29.437 --> 06:52.474\n第一個你已經嚴重違法拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你你現在拖到現在沒給來必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給你到時候要補嗎這是一個第一要補利息要不要算進去他現在問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定就是法定預算已經夠了啊\n\n06:53.254 --> 07:06.414\n所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤\n\n07:10.400 --> 07:36.482\n什麼叫不會當年入片他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後哇你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定\n\n07:37.790 --> 07:58.497\n然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部\n\n07:58.917 --> 08:17.025\n到現在算不出來你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要我問你好那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個理事是要什麼\n\n08:22.727 --> 08:31.455\n我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心\n\n08:35.441 --> 08:57.726\n是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家\n\n08:59.790 --> 09:27.308\n你少算你現在給四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點你拖到明年才算好喔就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年兩年後比較便宜是不是\n\n09:28.407 --> 09:51.153\n去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡\n\n09:53.607 --> 10:03.565\n剛剛秘書長也承認嘛法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛\n\n10:05.328 --> 10:29.786\n蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起對不起全國民眾他竟然講說我申請釋憲按個按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了\n\n10:30.765 --> 10:45.976\n都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了\n\n10:47.912 --> 11:13.289\n勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧如果怕你在講你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產結果你又沒有積極去爭取\n\n11:16.244 --> 11:28.395\n一起努力啦更重要的我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦已經法定預算過了守法而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":26.527,"end":49.094,"text":"請留秘書長跟施部長秘書長跟施部長委員長秘書長你是位A百合出身的很貼近民意而且你好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與特別是蔡英文總統的八年"},{"start":51.018,"end":80.661,"text":"我現在問一個非常重要的問題在蔡英文八年期間甚至往前推陳水扁的八年民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算總統公告以後行政院沒有編列預算的嗎行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦但是我的記憶不一定完整"},{"start":81.536,"end":109.871,"text":"沒有一個嘛 我也問了卓榮泰嘛舉不出來啊 嘴巴堵住啊那以前陳水北沒有 蔡英文沒有現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨變成專制退步黨是不是一代不如一代嗎可是考試院也有責任啊這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成"},{"start":111.004,"end":137.092,"text":"很多人還恢復不了八成喔 跟你年資還有關係喔要服務滿40年才有到八成喔那考試院 你剛才說的不是只有行政院啊 那考試院在做什麼事情你們要審定啊 對不對 法定你的法律 審定是不是你的法定義務你做了嗎那個我們現在已經 上次已經 因為有系統各自當中我們就會在年底以前把它全部完成"},{"start":140.527,"end":159.584,"text":"這個法案什麼時候通過的總統什麼時候公告四月多吧我們是法治社會欸總統公告法律就正式實施嘛 對不對沒有錯沒有錯你都知道沒錯 4月25號就應該"},{"start":162.086,"end":179.48,"text":"結果你要負責審定的機關現在過多久了五個多月了你到現在還沒審定好喔我跟委員報告 當初在年改的時候也是花了很長時間因為數量非常非常多所以需要一個一個審定我們警察人員已經退現在大概有三萬七千筆"},{"start":181.465,"end":207.275,"text":"所以我們必須 而且這中間還涉及到那個到底誰要負責這個因為那不是退伏法 那是根據警察條例所以內政部 老實說全者是在內政部後來我們部裡面主動要內政部說大家好好來談這個事情我們願意來做這個事情開發系統 各式各樣所以目前的已經差不多就緒了那等到12月底以前你為什麼 你剛剛都知道法定預算"},{"start":208.659,"end":236.43,"text":"總統公告開始法律就生效了那你錢就要撥啦對不對結果你現在核定已經五個多月了你沒有下來你這不是嚴重的失職嗎你是受到不好還是你故意在拖延全區部沒有失職沒有失職來看來我來看你開這個會是怎麼樣議會養會上還是故意在拖延沒有故意拖延我想如果那個會如果你更清楚了解內政部來你看一下你的你跟內政部全區部跟內政部開的會"},{"start":238.493,"end":263.979,"text":"你這個叫一而不決嘛你看你的結論都一樣喔委員如果一而不決我就不會說現在我們在12月底12月底以前會完成這個事情就一開始的時候確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛4月25號你為什麼要拖這麼久委員第一個你為什麼拖這麼久已經是不對了委員我一向尊重你所以我沒有辦法接受你用權勢不失職這個職業來"},{"start":268.24,"end":280.687,"text":"我整理出來你開的五次會議的內容你這個大概有三到四次結論都在上面首席經費來源跟編列預算由內政部持續跟財主單位去確認你開了"},{"start":284.687,"end":308.37,"text":"你從4月29號開會 5月16 5月28 6月25到7月30啊你的結論都一樣 你開這什麼會議你不是數學不好 還是你根本就是委員您知道這個過程在會議過程你根本就對得起公教人員會議過程裡面就是全 我們有這樣一個說法但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑慮所以最後 在最後一次會議所以你說問題在內政部"},{"start":309.79,"end":324.465,"text":"我不是這樣講 我是說這個事情本來就是一個根據警察條例修的法所以這個部分要內政部負責之後 那我們協助也開發計謀問題在內政部 當然內政部責任我們得追清楚可是這個核定是誰要負責所以核定決定是我你等一下 我想必須定邊緯省的行政部門對不對對這個核定誰負責核定是權序部負責"},{"start":334.921,"end":359.988,"text":"你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢法律一過突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定好幾萬人嘛公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間就像當年年改忽然調整了給付的方式之後我們也用了很長的時間要去做準備所以這幾個月全局部都沒有停下來所以就審定的部分我們也承諾"},{"start":360.928,"end":387.977,"text":"系統開發出來年底之前這個是可以完成大家會收到那個審定函沒有問題那現在的問題就在於說現在就是說如果他是依照原來的退伏法所可以拿到退休金這個都是我們的責任那他因為警察人事條例修改多出來要拿的那個部分那那個編列預算跟他未來預算編列那個就是行政院的部分所以我們的部分其實都有在做啦像公務同仁做核定這些都非常的努力因為一筆一筆都不能錯"},{"start":389.437,"end":412.474,"text":"第一個 你已經嚴重違法 拖延太久了你本來4月25號生效你就快給了我問你 你現在拖到現在沒給來 必須另外問你你拖到現在沒給 你到時候要補嗎這是一個 第一要補 利息要不要算進去他現在 問題是你法律出來生效了之後那個預算也不存在啊所以怎麼什麼都不存在你法定 就是法定預算已經夠了啊"},{"start":413.254,"end":426.414,"text":"所以我剛不是一開始問你你怎麼會連連法律案過了法定預算法定預算你之後核定完之後他錢就必須編嘛對不對而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛對不對蛤"},{"start":430.4,"end":456.482,"text":"什麼叫不會當年入片 他的權利就從是從這個法律分架之後 哇 你這樣嚴重對不起不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔你整個法制的那個觀念 基本觀念都沒有總統已經公告要實施的這個法律案啊你們現在拖延這麼久 你們現在還說不是從4月25號喔是從4月25號啊啊你今天幾號 今天幾號我跟委員報告過啊需要三萬多人一個核定"},{"start":457.79,"end":478.497,"text":"然後一個一個核定那我們的行政作業程序就是這樣當我們一旦核定完以後呢我們就有分基金的錢那根據退伍法一核定那個錢就撥給你那現在差的是那個根據差額你們現在跟全國的民眾講說一個4月25號通過的三讀條文總統公告這個全序部"},{"start":478.917,"end":497.025,"text":"到現在算不出來 你看會不會笑掉人家大牙在全世界可能都是個笑話更重要 我問你好 那你4月25號錢就該給嘛我現在問你通基本的嘛就到時候這個錢是要補回去對不對你說你要算到年底不能到年底 快一點啦我跟你講現在如果去告你 賭職可能都成立了啦賭職都成立了啦第二個 理事是要什麼"},{"start":502.727,"end":511.455,"text":"我本來4月25號要拿到錢4月26號要拿到錢啊對不對你現在給我偷到年底才給我你利息錢要不要算我可不可以要求國賠你將心比心"},{"start":515.441,"end":537.726,"text":"是不是如果法律生效他的權益都在啦但是這個錢不會一夕之間這個行政程序也不會一夕之間背完你本來應該4月26號就要給你要盡快的完成這個審定嘛結果你審定偷到現在都沒給你親外到警消人員的權益嘛所以我問你啊第一你有沒有瀆職的問題第二個對人家的權益的這個損害人家可不可以要求國賠那你在算的時候利息你不要還給人家"},{"start":539.79,"end":567.308,"text":"你少算 你現在給 四月給跟你再拖個到明年給都你自己做數喔 你們有沒有法治觀念啊你數學再不好一點 你拖到明年才算好喔 就到明年才能領喔這法治社會嗎是不是這樣我什麼時候可以領到我的法定的預算是你們的作業一拖再拖你如果再算兩年 兩年後比較便宜是不是"},{"start":568.407,"end":591.153,"text":"去想一想你怎麼會這麼離譜來我接著要問一個很重要的事情現在議員還可以等我一下嗎現在人民最生氣的一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來你標準你現在跟我講說要拖到年底這已經是嚴重失職了更生氣的是行政院行政院怎麼可以說立法院過了去申請事件就停在那裡"},{"start":593.607,"end":603.565,"text":"剛剛秘書長也承認嘛 法定預算過了其實疫情什麼老農津貼 不管在國民黨執政老農津貼增加預算 法案過了就編嘛不管哪一個黨嘛"},{"start":605.328,"end":629.786,"text":"蕭美琴提過花東發展條例對不對那就是個法案啊 過了預算就編啊周榮泰跟戴青的政府是全台灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的結果他現在竟然在嘻哈拼水杯還對不起 對不起全國民眾他竟然講說 我申請釋憲 按個 按停鍵這筆錢就可以不用給他把自己當上帝了"},{"start":630.765,"end":645.976,"text":"都侵犯到霸凌到軍人跟這個警消人員啊這嚴重抗議的我最後一分鐘抱歉我忘了剛剛一直在講這個公教公教人員的這個退休金的問題我覺得柏定理是嚴重失職了"},{"start":647.912,"end":673.289,"text":"勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產 人家每一年都爭取到一千億的最近三年 已經三千多億了結果你應該是照顧 如果怕你在講 你說怕這個基金破產你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極去爭取你不只沒有爭取耶 你還少撥補耶你這不是嚴重失職嗎跟勞動部看齊 好不好不要一直嘴巴在講說破產 結果你又沒有積極去爭取"},{"start":676.244,"end":688.395,"text":"一起努力啦 更重要的 我們是個法治社會嘛不要一直倒退 把根挖掉警消人員那麼辛苦 已經法定預算過了守法 而且趕快不要再霸凌不要再欺負我們的警消人員 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1052,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時49分）謝謝主席，請劉秘書長跟施部長。"],["主席：請秘書長跟施部長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：秘書長，你是從野百合出身的，很貼近民意，而且好長一段時間民進黨的重要決策你都有參與，特別是蔡英文總統的8年。我現在問一個非常重要的問題，在蔡英文執政的8年期間，甚至往前推陳水扁的8年，民進黨的政府有曾經發生過立法院三讀通過的法定預算，在總統公告以後，行政院沒有編列預算的嗎？行政部門沒有編列預算的嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我記憶中是沒有其他的例子啦，但是我的記憶不一定完整。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有一個嘛！我也問了卓榮泰嘛，舉不出來，嘴巴堵住啊！以前陳水扁沒有蔡英文沒有，現在的賴清德跟卓榮泰這個民進黨政府不是民主進步黨，變成專制退步黨，是一代不如一代嗎？可是考試院也有責任啊，這次通過的警消人員所得替代率恢復到被砍的八成，很多人還恢復不了八成，這跟年資還有關係，要服務滿40年才有到八成喔。但考試院，你剛剛說的，不是只有行政院，考試院要做什麼事情？你們要審定啊，對不對？部長？"],["施部長能傑：對，我們要負責做審定。"],["張委員啓楷：審定是不是你的法定義務？"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你做了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們現在已經……上次已經講過，要有系統的從個資上去做，我們會在年底以前把它全部完成。"],["張委員啓楷：這個法案什麼時候通過的？總統什麼時候公告？"],["施部長能傑：四月多吧。"],["張委員啓楷：我們是法治社會耶！總統公告的法律就要正式實施嘛，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有錯？你都知道沒錯，4月25號就應該……"],["施部長能傑：不過我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：結果你這個負責審定的機關，現在過去多久了？五個多月了，你到現在還沒有審定好喔！"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，當初年改的時候也是花了很長時間，因為數量非常、非常多，所以需要一個、一個審定，我們警察人員已經退的，現在大概有3萬7,000筆，而且這中間還涉及到到底誰要負責這個，因為那不是退撫法，而是根據警察條例，所以老實說權責是在內政部，後來我們部裡面主動邀內政部，說大家好好來談這個事情，我們願意來做這個事情，開發系統及各式各樣的工作，所以目前已經差不多就緒了，等到12月底以前……"],["張委員啓楷：你都知道法定預算在總統公告開始法律就生效了，那錢就要撥啦，對不對？結果到現在已經五個多月都還沒有下來，你這不是嚴重的失職嗎？你是數學不好還是故意在拖延？"],["施部長能傑：銓敘部沒有失職。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有失職？來，我們來看，你開這個會是怎麼樣？以會養會還是故意在拖延？"],["施部長能傑：沒有故意拖延，如果你更清楚了解在相關會議中內政部跟我們的過程……"],["張委員啓楷：來，看一下銓敘部跟內政部開的會，你這個叫議而不決嘛！你看你的結論都一樣喔，好幾個……"],["施部長能傑：委員，如果議而不決，我就不會說我們在12月底以前會完成這個事情，一開始的時候，確實內政部一直不太願意去參與這些事情……"],["張委員啓楷：你這個已經是嚴重失職了嘛！4月25號，你為什麼要拖這麼久？"],["施部長能傑：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你為什麼拖這麼久？這已經是不對了……"],["施部長能傑：委員，我一向尊重你，所以我沒辦法接受你用銓敘部失職這個字眼。"],["張委員啓楷：時間拖太久了！第二個，你看看你們的開會內容，我整理出來了你們開的5次會的內容，大概有3到4次的結論都是「所需經費來源及預算編列等事宜，由內政部持續洽財主單位確認」……"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯啊！"],["張委員啓楷：這樣開一次就好了，你從4月29號開第一次會，5月16號、5月28號、6月25號及7月30號也有開會，你的結論都一樣，你開這個是什麼會？你是數學不好還是你根本就是故意……"],["施部長能傑：委員，您知道這個會議過程……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣怎麼對得起公教人員？"],["施部長能傑：在會議過程裡面，我們有這樣一個說法，但是內政部那邊一直還有一些疑義，所以在最後一次會議才做確認。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你說問題在內政部？"],["施部長能傑：我不是這樣講，我是說這個事情本來就是根據警察條例修的法，所以這個部分要內政部負責，我們協助，也開發系統……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你說問題在內政部，當然內政部的責任我們會去追清楚，可是這個核定是誰要負責？"],["施部長能傑：對，核定權一定是我。"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下，我問秘書長，編預算在行政部門，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這個核定誰負責？"],["劉秘書長建忻：核定是銓敘部負責，所以突然之間……"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼把責任推給內政部呢？"],["劉秘書長建忻：不是，委員，法律一通過，突然之間所有退休的警察人員要重新核定，有好幾萬人嘛，公務同仁要去執行這個工作一定需要時間，就像當年年改突然調整了給付方式之後，我們也用了很長的時間去做準備，所以這幾個月銓敘部都沒有停下來。就審定的部分，我們也承諾，系統開發出來，年底之前這個是可以完成，大家會收到那個審定函，沒有問題，現在的問題就在於說，如果他是依照原來的退撫法所可以拿到的退休金，這個都是我們的責任，如果因為警察人事條例修正而多出來要拿的部分，那個編列預算跟未來預算的編列是行政院的部分，所以我們的部分其實都有在做，我想公務同仁核定這些都非常的努力，因為一筆一筆都不能錯，所以……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你已經嚴重違法、拖延太久了，本來4月25號生效你就要給了，我問你……"],["劉秘書長建忻：這個不會一夕之間生出來。"],["張委員啓楷：你拖到現在沒給，秘書長，我問你，你拖到現在沒給，到時候要補嗎？這是第一個。第二個，如果要補，利息要不要算進去？"],["劉秘書長建忻：現在的問題是法律突然生效之後，那個預算也不存在啊，所以怎麼……"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫不存在？"],["劉秘書長建忻：預算沒有編。"],["張委員啓楷：法定預算已經過啦！所以我剛剛不是一開始問你，喔，你怎麼會連法律案過了……"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，是法律案過了，但是還沒有預算嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：法定預算，你如果核定完之後，錢就必須編嘛，對不對？而且要從4月25號就開始算嘛，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：編不會當年度編啊！"],["張委員啓楷：啊？"],["施部長能傑：不會是當年度編啊！"],["張委員啓楷：什麼叫不會當年度編？4月25號……"],["劉秘書長建忻：他的權益就從法律生效之後開始……"],["張委員啓楷：哇，你們這樣嚴重對不起……不只嚴重對不起警消人員喔，你整個法治的基本觀念都沒有，總統已經公告要實施這個法律案，你們拖延這麼久，現在竟然還說不是從4月25號喔？"],["施部長能傑：是從4月25號啊！"],["張委員啓楷：今天幾號了？今天幾號？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告過啊，三萬多人需要一個一個核定，我們的行政作業程序就是這樣，我們一旦核定完以後，我們就有分基金的錢，根據退撫法，一核定完那個錢就撥給你，現在差的是那個差額。"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在跟全國的民眾講，一個4月25號就通過的三讀條文，總統公告了，結果銓敘部到現在算不出來，你看會不會笑掉人家大牙，在全世界可能都是個笑話，更重要的，你4月25號錢就該給嘛，我現在問你最基本的，到時候這個錢是要補回去，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對啊，如果……"],["張委員啓楷：你說要算到年底，不能到年底，快一點啦！我跟你講，現在如果去告你瀆職可能都成立了，瀆職都成立了啦。第二個，利息的錢要算嗎？我本來4月25號拿到錢、4月26號拿到錢啊，對不對？最多也就一個月，你現在拖到年底才給我，利息錢要不要算？我可不可以要求國賠？你將心比心，是不是？"],["劉秘書長建忻：如果法律生效，他的權益都在啦，但是這個錢不會一夕之間，這個行政程序也不會一夕之間被完成。"],["張委員啓楷：本來應該4月26號就要給了，你要儘快的完成這個審定嘛，結果你審定拖到現在都沒給，你侵犯到警消人員的權益嘛，所以我問你：第一個，你有沒有瀆職的問題？第二個，對人家的權益損害，人家可不可以要求國賠？你在算的時候，利息要不要還給人家？你少算的、你在拖的，你現在給、4月給跟你再拖到明年給，都你們自己作主喔，你們有沒有法治觀念啊？你如果數學再不好一點，你拖到明年才算好，我就到明年才能領喔？這樣是法治社會嗎？是不是這樣？我什麼時候可以領到我的法定預算？是你們的作業一拖再拖，你如果要再算兩年，就兩年後再編，是不是？去想一想，你怎麼會這麼離譜！","來，我接著要問一個很重要的事情，不好意思，主席，再給我……易餘，可以再等我一下嘛！"],["主席：最後1分鐘，好嗎？謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：現在人民最生氣的，一個是你們的審定函到現在沒出來，你剛剛還跟我說要拖到年底，這已經是嚴重失職了！更令人生氣的是行政院，行政院怎麼可以說立法院通過了，但他去聲請釋憲就停在那裡，剛剛秘書長也承認嘛，法定預算過了，其實以前什麼老農津貼，不管是國民黨執政或民進黨執政，老農津貼增加預算，法案過了就編嘛，不管哪一個黨嘛。蕭美琴提過花東發展條例，對不對？那就是個法案啊，過了預算就編啊，卓榮泰跟賴清德政府是全臺灣第一次法定預算過了沒有編的，結果他們現在竟然還「死鴨子嘴硬」，對不起全國民眾，他竟然講說因為聲請釋憲，按個暫停鍵，這筆錢就可以不用給，他把自己當上帝了，都侵犯、霸凌到軍人跟警消人員啊，這要嚴重抗議的。","我最後用1分鐘，抱歉。我問一下，剛剛一直在講公教人員的退休金問題，我覺得部長你是嚴重失職，勞動部對於勞保基金可能破產，人家每一年都爭取到1,000億耶，最近三年已經三千多億了，你應該是要照顧……如果像你講的，你怕這個基金破產，那你有沒有像勞動部這樣去積極爭取？你不只沒有爭取，你還少撥補耶，你這不是嚴重失職嗎？跟勞動部看齊，好不好？不要一直嘴巴上講說破產，結果你又沒有積極去爭取，一起努力啦！","更重要的，我們是個法治社會嘛，不要一直「倒退噜」的把根挖掉，警消人員那麼辛苦，法定預算已經過了，要守法，而且要趕快，不要再霸凌、不要再欺負我們的警消人員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員的質詢，也請考試院秘書長這邊要注意有關於警消人員的權益問題，我們的法律都已經生效了，就應該要立刻實施。如果說在審定的程序上稍微晚一點，但是要補那個差額，退休金這個事情也應該要公開的跟所有的退休警消人員講，讓他們安心，政府一定會把這筆錢如實的交到他們的手上。不能說現在行政院就不編預算，然後你們考試院也沒有作為，也沒有積極去爭取，我覺得這樣是不對的。剛剛其實張委員講的是很有道理的，我也不斷的在說，如果今天換成是一般企業的雇主，他可以這樣欠發勞工的薪水嗎？這早就違反勞基法了！這些退休的公務人員、公教人員、警消人員已經很忍耐，一直在等待，看政府什麼時候可以把這個錢撥給他們，不要忘記刑法上面有一個叫抑留剋扣罪，依法要發給的款項你不發給就是違反刑法的相關規定，我希望考試院可以站在維護這些退休警消人員的立場上，要去跟行政院反映，不要忘記，在權力分立的這個體制上面，你們和行政院是平行的，行政院沒有比你們大，拜託，請考試院一定要積極地去爭取警消人員的權益，謝謝。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。","對不起，我這邊先處理會議時間，上午會議時間繼續進行到所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來是伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員，伍麗華委員不在。","葉元之委員，葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。","不好意思，葉委員，還是讓蔡易餘委員先發言好了，次序上交換一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":190,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-2","speakers":["翁曉玲","黃國昌","吳宗憲","王義川","王鴻薇","林倩綺","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","吳思瑤","張啓楷","陳培瑜","羅智強","蔡易餘","葉元之","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請考試院秘書長、考選部部長、銓敘部部長及公務人員保障暨培訓委員會主任委員列席報告業\n務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148102_00002"}}}