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0.957}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 730.704, \"end\": 731.465, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 731.465, \"end\": 731.585, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 731.585, \"end\": 731.605, \"score\": 0.809}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,910 --> 00:00:13,441\n接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言\n\n2\n00:00:19,466 --> 00:00:33,980\n謝謝主席主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題\n\n3\n00:00:37,803 --> 00:01:01,913\n因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對然後也包括\n\n4\n00:01:05,287 --> 00:01:22,979\n包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法\n\n5\n00:01:23,359 --> 00:01:39,421\n對當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上\n\n6\n00:01:40,823 --> 00:02:09,398\n那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用\n\n7\n00:02:09,838 --> 00:02:30,229\n其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦我是這樣子我是\n\n8\n00:02:31,806 --> 00:02:58,943\n我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底\n\n9\n00:03:00,475 --> 00:03:29,507\n美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤\n\n10\n00:03:31,007 --> 00:03:57,475\n遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司\n\n11\n00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:14,996\n解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會\n\n12\n00:04:17,130 --> 00:04:27,056\n本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境\n\n13\n00:04:30,448 --> 00:04:49,939\n我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解\n\n14\n00:04:51,966 --> 00:05:19,930\n所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道\n\n15\n00:05:20,690 --> 00:05:43,806\n因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供\n\n16\n00:05:44,537 --> 00:06:09,830\n因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將\n\n17\n00:06:13,460 --> 00:06:39,305\n將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題\n\n18\n00:06:42,245 --> 00:07:07,267\n我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那\n\n19\n00:07:09,810 --> 00:07:35,845\n可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估\n\n20\n00:07:36,906 --> 00:07:57,314\n企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步\n\n21\n00:08:00,799 --> 00:08:12,778\n那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣\n\n22\n00:08:14,980 --> 00:08:40,979\n台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出\n\n23\n00:08:44,401 --> 00:09:05,389\n包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動\n\n24\n00:09:09,571 --> 00:09:34,045\n指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求\n\n25\n00:09:35,539 --> 00:10:02,126\n跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法\n\n26\n00:10:04,451 --> 00:10:27,749\n那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說\n\n27\n00:10:31,363 --> 00:10:52,141\n聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的\n\n28\n00:10:53,021 --> 00:11:07,675\n那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工\n\n29\n00:11:08,556 --> 00:11:33,454\n那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求\n\n30\n00:11:35,310 --> 00:11:45,122\n對這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去\n\n31\n00:11:45,540 --> 00:12:11,605\n他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n910\t13441\t接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言\n19466\t33980\t謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題\n37803\t61913\t因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層 廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括\n65287\t82979\t包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法\n83359\t99421\t對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上\n100823\t129398\t那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用\n129838\t150229\t其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是\n151806\t178943\t我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底\n180475\t209507\t美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤\n211007\t237475\t遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司\n238439\t254996\t解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會\n257130\t267056\t本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境\n270448\t289939\t我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解\n291966\t319930\t所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道\n320690\t343806\t因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供\n344537\t369830\t因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將\n373460\t399305\t將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題\n402245\t427267\t我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那\n429810\t455845\t可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估\n456906\t477314\t企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步\n480799\t492778\t那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣\n494980\t520979\t台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出\n524401\t545389\t包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動\n549571\t574045\t指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求\n575539\t602126\t跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法\n604451\t627749\t那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說\n631363\t652141\t聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的\n653021\t667675\t那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工\n668556\t693454\t那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求\n695310\t705122\t對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去\n705540\t731605\t他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","txt":"接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言\n謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題\n因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層 廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括\n包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法\n對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上\n那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用\n其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是\n我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底\n美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤\n遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司\n解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會\n本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境\n我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解\n所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道\n因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供\n因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將\n將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題\n我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那\n可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估\n企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步\n那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣\n台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出\n包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動\n指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求\n跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法\n那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說\n聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的\n那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工\n那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求\n對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去\n他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.910 --> 00:13.441\n接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言\n\n00:19.466 --> 00:33.980\n謝謝主席主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題\n\n00:37.803 --> 01:01.913\n因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對然後也包括\n\n01:05.287 --> 01:22.979\n包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法\n\n01:23.359 --> 01:39.421\n對當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上\n\n01:40.823 --> 02:09.398\n那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用\n\n02:09.838 --> 02:30.229\n其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦我是這樣子我是\n\n02:31.806 --> 02:58.943\n我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底\n\n03:00.475 --> 03:29.507\n美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤\n\n03:31.007 --> 03:57.475\n遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司\n\n03:58.439 --> 04:14.996\n解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會\n\n04:17.130 --> 04:27.056\n本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境\n\n04:30.448 --> 04:49.939\n我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解\n\n04:51.966 --> 05:19.930\n所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道\n\n05:20.690 --> 05:43.806\n因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供\n\n05:44.537 --> 06:09.830\n因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將\n\n06:13.460 --> 06:39.305\n將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題\n\n06:42.245 --> 07:07.267\n我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那\n\n07:09.810 --> 07:35.845\n可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估\n\n07:36.906 --> 07:57.314\n企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步\n\n08:00.799 --> 08:12.778\n那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣\n\n08:14.980 --> 08:40.979\n台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出\n\n08:44.401 --> 09:05.389\n包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動\n\n09:09.571 --> 09:34.045\n指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求\n\n09:35.539 --> 10:02.126\n跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法\n\n10:04.451 --> 10:27.749\n那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說\n\n10:31.363 --> 10:52.141\n聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的\n\n10:53.021 --> 11:07.675\n那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工\n\n11:08.556 --> 11:33.454\n那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求\n\n11:35.310 --> 11:45.122\n對這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去\n\n11:45.540 --> 12:11.605\n他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長謝謝主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.91,"end":13.441,"text":"接下来请杨耀委员发言请蔡易瑜委员发言蔡易瑜委员蔡易瑜委员不在请杨耀委员发言"},{"start":19.466,"end":33.98,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下部長部長我先問一個問題就是說你們的沒宣費用大概管道是什麼我剛剛聽你們回覆這個問題"},{"start":37.803,"end":61.913,"text":"因為沒宣費用一直在被檢討我個人我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人其實會包括廣播那因為很多勞工階層 廣播就是包括在新聞裡面對 然後也包括"},{"start":65.287,"end":82.979,"text":"包括社群的媒體廣播的媒體平面媒體還有甚至還有一些戶外的媒體對比方說在在有些工業區那是不是能透過用廣告的看板的方式讓在比較人群集中的地方會看得到所以我們其實是多元的方法"},{"start":83.359,"end":99.421,"text":"對 當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的這個是沒有錯可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正的用在實體上"},{"start":100.823,"end":129.398,"text":"那不代表我反對美元費用只是說怎麼找到好一點的方式譬如說我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會透過他們來幫忙宣導因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴那這個是免費的宣傳而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的請部長多加利用"},{"start":129.838,"end":150.229,"text":"其實公會的網絡我們這段時間其實都去很積極的去接觸那的確因為台灣的公會其實整體的覆蓋率還不是那麼高所以有很多他比方說現在減半休息的企業他不一定是有公會的所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式來去觸及到這些需要知道的人對啦 我是這樣子 我是"},{"start":151.806,"end":178.943,"text":"我覺得比較可惜就是有一些政策是好的我們要去推動可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小那很容易模糊政策的焦點所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論部長我問一下就是說九月底"},{"start":180.475,"end":209.507,"text":"美國CPP針對吉安特的製造商巨大公司在台灣生產的自行車還有自行車的零組件發出了戰扣令就是說他們發布的新聞稿是表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國然後獲取不當的利潤"},{"start":211.007,"end":237.475,"text":"遭受讓美國企業受到損失經濟部有發新聞稿他說基於巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商為了協助該公司維護其國際的商譽這個對於企業來講很重要他們將跟勞動部合作協助巨大公司"},{"start":238.439,"end":254.996,"text":"解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題讓美方可以儘早撤銷戰扣令那我請教一下部長就是說巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會"},{"start":257.13,"end":267.056,"text":"本於保障勞工權益的立場是不是我們部裡面已經有進入場去了解本勞還有移工實際的勞動環境"},{"start":270.448,"end":289.939,"text":"我們其實在9月底的時候有進場然後做了初步的一些意見的或者是初步一些狀況的了解那的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關的資料比較能夠做整體性的更徹底的了解"},{"start":291.966,"end":319.93,"text":"所以前面性的了解還沒有完成對 就是因為還需要巨大公司來提供一些更進一步的資料因為他沒有提供前面性的資料我們就很難提供他必要的協助我們進場的目的是希望協助巨大公司來提出有效的改善方案然後希望早日來解除美方現在對他的一些質疑我知道"},{"start":320.69,"end":343.806,"text":"因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助那看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始我們其實有給他初步一些建議但是確實要你說更完整的部分的話會需要他一些資料來做提供"},{"start":344.537,"end":369.83,"text":"因為巨大公司有聲明說他們從今年開始其實已經前面推動移工零招聘費政策那對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額來負擔那請問一下就是那他這一次又被制裁過去勞動部這邊並沒有將"},{"start":373.46,"end":399.305,"text":"將移工零付費政策強制入法對不對目前沒有現在美方呢要求我國的企業必須要落實那勞動部要怎麼去輔導業者達到美方或者是其他也有可能這一件事情是發生在美國也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題"},{"start":402.245,"end":427.267,"text":"我們要怎麼輔導業者來達到譬如說美國期盼的標準我跟文說明其實的確台灣現在有很多我們的廠商他把移工相關聘僱的工作都交給人力仲介那其實有的時候人力仲介我說部分的人力仲介他怎麼做有時候這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚那"},{"start":429.81,"end":455.845,"text":"可是如果人力仲介我说部分的人力仲介没有很清楚的告诉企业现在这些关于移工的劳动人权的问题已经会变成你的营运的经济风险的时候这个风险就变成是企业在承担可是他对于风险的资讯就不了解所以我想我们在协助里面我觉得第一部分重要的事情是要让企业有能力去做这样的风险评估"},{"start":456.906,"end":477.314,"text":"企業有能力做風險評估他才有辦法去做風險的管理或者是去做降低風險的一些做法的方案當他都不知道自己當企業都不知道自己這個相關的風險的時候他就很難去做相關的因應所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業做有能力做風險評估那我覺得這是重要的第一步"},{"start":480.799,"end":492.778,"text":"那怎麼協助因為根據台灣勞工政縣跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告裡面指出台灣"},{"start":494.98,"end":520.979,"text":"台灣10週資本額前50大企業的製造廠商裡面其實多數企業是沒有在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的所以這部分我們會要跟經濟部一起來合作我們會要提出一個輔導或者是包括協助指引的計畫來去協助廠商指引要趕快出"},{"start":524.401,"end":545.389,"text":"包括我們的輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作還有一個問題就是剛剛部長有提到仲介的部分我們現在不是說多數的仲介是說有部分仲介可能才是引發強迫勞動"},{"start":549.571,"end":574.045,"text":"指標違反的始作俑者那這個部分怎麼去處理我們也認為其實企業也要有能力去管理仲介可是它是不同的公司我的意思說管理的意思不是說有點同一公司要管理而是比方說履約管理比方說在跟仲介在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分那怎麼去要求"},{"start":575.539,"end":602.126,"text":"跟你簽約的仲介有合約的仲介他要做到哪些事情而盡量避免說其實很多東西變成部分的仲介他怎麼做怎麼做可是你都不知道或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他其實我們在這段時間我們看到有一些我們的產業他對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮他也不太知道該怎麼做那這部分就是我們要來輔導跟提呼指引的做法"},{"start":604.451,"end":627.749,"text":"那有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內是在移工來源國也不是不可能那這個部分要怎麼解決因為這個部分就更困難了剛剛講說"},{"start":631.363,"end":652.141,"text":"聘僱的企業要去要求本國的人力中介公司履約這個就有難度了那我們怎麼去確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題跟委員說明的確海外的部分的挑戰是會更多的"},{"start":653.021,"end":667.675,"text":"那當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論我們會在這個程序做雙邊討論但也的確我們看到陸續有些企業比方說一些科技業他其實有用這個零付費的移工"},{"start":668.556,"end":693.454,"text":"那這林副委員工他也有找仲介只是這個仲介費或者是招募費是由企業自己來負擔這樣巨大就表示他們對 就是他是企業來負擔並不是說這裡面不能有仲介的人力仲介的服務但是是由企業自己來負擔所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上面跟產業裡面有一些不同的做法那這些做法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上面的要求"},{"start":695.31,"end":705.122,"text":"對 這是一個很嚴肅很嚴重的問題那其實也有一定的困難度就企業本身他要怎麼去"},{"start":705.54,"end":731.605,"text":"他自己就像巨大他已經表示從今年開始他就已經是一共零付費了那怎麼去跟相關的特別是國內的仲介公司怎麼去溝通這件事情跟一共來源國怎麼去溝通這件事情這個都是重大的挑戰請部裡面多努力謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":907,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時31分）謝謝主席，我請一下部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我先問你一個問題，你們的媒宣費用大概管道是什麼？我剛剛沒有聽你們回復這個問題，因為媒宣費用一直在被檢討，我先講我個人並沒有很大的意見，可是我覺得你們是不是趁這個機會向國人說明？"],["洪部長申翰：其實會包括廣播，因為很多勞工階層……"],["楊委員曜：廣播就包括在新聞裡面啦？"],["洪部長申翰：對，包括社群媒體、廣播媒體、平面媒體甚至還有一些戶外的媒體，比方在有些工業區透過廣告看板的方式，在人群比較集中的地方會看得到，所以我們其實是多元的方法。"],["楊委員曜：對，當然政策的推動跟落實其實是必須要透過宣導的，這個沒有錯，可是我還是希望我們把多一點的預算真正用在實體上。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：那不代表我反對媒宣費用，只是要怎麼找到好一點的方式，譬如我想得到的就是勞動部在全國大概都有各種工會，透過他們來幫忙宣導，因為他們算是你們的長期合作夥伴，當然這是免費的宣傳。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["楊委員曜：而且我覺得這個可能是最到位的，請部長多加利用。"],["洪部長申翰：其實工會的網絡我們這段時間都很積極的去接觸，不過因為臺灣的工會整體的覆蓋率還不是這麼高，比方現在減班休息的企業不一定是有工會的，所以可能還是要透過媒體的方式去觸及到這些需要知道的人。"],["楊委員曜：對啦，我覺得比較可惜的是，有一些政策是好的，我們要去推動，可是反而被檢討的都是宣傳費用，我覺得過去這一年這個問題還不小，那很容易模糊政策的焦點，所以我就在這邊跟部長做個簡單的討論。"],["洪部長申翰：了解。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我問一下，9月底美國CBP針對捷安特的製造商巨大公司在臺灣生產的自行車還有自行車零組件發出了暫扣令，他們發布新聞稿表示巨大公司違反禁止使用強迫勞動生產的商品進入美國，獲取不當的利潤，讓美國企業受到損失；經濟部有發新聞稿說，巨大公司是國際知名的自行車製造商，為了協助該公司維護其國際商譽，這個對企業來講很重要，他們將跟勞動部合作，協助巨大公司解決可能涉及的強迫勞動議題，讓美方可以儘早撤銷暫扣令。我請教一下部長，巨大公司替我國勞工提供了很多的就業機會，本於保障勞工權益的立場，是不是部裡面已經有入廠去了解本勞和移工實際的勞動環境？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實在9月底的時候有進廠，也做了一些初步意見或者初步狀況的了解，的確現在也還請巨大再提供一些相關資料，比較能夠做整體性、更澈底的了解。"],["楊委員曜：所以全面性的了解還沒有完成？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就是因為還需要巨大公司提供一些更進一步的資料。"],["楊委員曜：因為他沒有提供全面性的資料，我們就很難提供他必要的協助，對不對？還是……"],["洪部長申翰：我們進廠的目的是希望協助巨大公司提出有效的改善方案……"],["楊委員曜：協助，對，我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：希望早日解除美方現在對他的一些質疑。"],["楊委員曜：我知道，因為我原本還想要接下來問你們提供了什麼協助，看樣子就是他給的資料還沒有完成，所以部裡面這邊可以提供的協助也還沒有開始。"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實有給他初步的一些建議，但確實你說更完整部分的話，會需要他提供一些資料。"],["楊委員曜：因為巨大公司有聲明，他們從今年開始其實已經全面推動移工零招聘政策。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：對於所有新聘外籍員工的招聘、仲介還有政府的費用都是公司全額負擔。請問一下，他這一次又被制裁，過去勞動部並沒有將移工零付費政策強制入法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：目前沒有。"],["楊委員曜：沒有，現在美方要求我國的企業必須落實，那勞動部要怎麼輔導業者達到美方……這一件事情是發生在美國，也有可能其他有相對貿易的國家都會有類似的問題，我們要怎麼輔導業者達到譬如美國期盼的標準？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，的確臺灣現在有很多廠商把相關移工聘僱工作都交給人力仲介，其實部分的人力仲介怎麼做，有時這個企業本身也不一定都很清楚。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：可是如果部分的人力仲介沒有很清楚地告訴企業，現在這些關於移工的勞動人權問題已經會變成你營運的經濟風險，這時風險就變成是企業在承擔，可是他對於風險的資訊就不了解。所以我們在協助裡面第一步很重要的事情是，要讓企業有能力做這樣的風險評估。企業有能力做風險評估，他才有辦法做風險管理或者是有降低風險的一些作法、方案；當企業都不知道自己的相關風險的時候，他就很難做相關的因應。所以我們的輔導裡面要先協助企業有能力做風險評估，我覺得這是重要的第一步。"],["楊委員曜：那怎麼協助？因為根據台灣勞工陣線跟國家人權委員會合作的一個調查報告指出，臺灣實收資本額前五十大企業的製造廠商裡面，其實多數企業在辨識強迫勞動風險上的能力是不足的，這部分你們要怎麼……"],["洪部長申翰：所以這部分我們要跟經濟部一起合作，我們會提出一個輔導或者包括指引的計畫來協助廠商。"],["楊委員曜：指引要趕快出來。"],["洪部長申翰：對，包括輔導跟指引的計畫我們要趕快提出來，這部分我們會跟經濟部一起合作。"],["楊委員曜：對。還有一個問題是剛剛部長提到仲介的部分，我們現在不是說多數的仲介，是說有部分仲介可能才是引發違反強迫勞動指標的始作俑者，這個部分怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為其實企業也要有能力管理仲介，比方……"],["楊委員曜：管理？可是他是不同的公司耶！"],["洪部長申翰：我說管理的意思，不是同一家公司去管理，而是比方履約管理，在跟人力仲介的合約裡面要包括哪些部分，那怎麼去要求跟你簽約的仲介、有合約的仲介要做到哪些事情，儘量避免很多東西變成部分的仲介怎麼做、怎麼做，可是你都不知道，或者是你也不知道怎麼要求他。其實我們在這段時間看到，有一些我們的產業對於怎麼要求仲介去做到不要有強迫勞動的疑慮，他也不太知道該怎麼做，這部分就是我們要輔導跟提出指引的作法。"],["楊委員曜：有沒有可能違反強迫勞動的源頭並不在國內，是在移工來源國？"],["洪部長申翰：也不是不可能。"],["楊委員曜：這個部分要怎麼解決？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個……"],["楊委員曜：因為這個部分就更困難了，剛剛講聘僱的企業要要求本國的人力仲介公司履約，這個就有難度了，那我們怎麼確認移工來源國有沒有這個問題？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確海外部分的挑戰是會更多的，當然這部分我們也會跟移工的來源國做雙邊的討論，我們會在這個層次做雙邊的討論。但也的確我們看到陸陸續續有一些企業，比方一些科技業，他其實有用零付費的移工，他也有找仲介，只是這個仲介費或者招募費是由企業自己……"],["楊委員曜：企業吸收。"],["洪部長申翰：自己負擔。"],["楊委員曜：對，像巨大就表示他們……"],["洪部長申翰：對，是企業負擔，並不是說這裡面不能有人力仲介的服務，但是是由企業自己負擔。所以我們的確現在也看到在國際上跟產業裡面有一些不同的作法，這些作法都相對是比較能夠合乎現在國際上的要求。"],["楊委員曜：對，這是一個很嚴肅、很嚴重的問題，其實也有一定的困難度，就是企業本身要怎麼去……就像巨大，他已經表示從今天開始他就已經是移工零付費了嘛！那怎麼跟相關的……特別是跟國內仲介公司怎麼去溝通、跟移工來源國怎麼溝通這件事情，這個都是重大的挑戰。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：請部裡面多努力，好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝楊曜委員的發言。","最後請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":428,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-2","speakers":["廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王正旭","鍾佳濱","林淑芬","黃國昌","陳瑩","葉元之","黃秀芳","陳菁徽","楊曜","劉建國","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","王育敏","蘇清泉","盧縣一"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-10-09"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長針對「因關稅造成我國市場就業及勞動環境衝擊之影響及因應對策」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00006"}}}