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\"end\": 522.608, \"text\": \"如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 512.725, \"end\": 512.865, \"score\": 0.747}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 512.865, \"end\": 513.085, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"每\", \"start\": 513.085, \"end\": 513.245, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 513.245, \"end\": 513.425, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 513.425, \"end\": 513.546, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 513.546, \"end\": 513.666, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 513.666, \"end\": 513.846, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 513.846, \"end\": 514.026, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 514.026, \"end\": 514.146, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 514.146, \"end\": 514.246, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 514.246, \"end\": 514.426, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 514.426, \"end\": 514.526, \"score\": 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\"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 741.8, \"end\": 741.94, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 741.94, \"end\": 742.32, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 742.32, \"end\": 742.74, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 742.74, \"end\": 742.84, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 742.84, \"end\": 742.94, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 742.94, \"end\": 743.04, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 743.04, \"end\": 743.18, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 743.18, \"end\": 743.2, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,379 --> 00:00:27,407\n謝謝主席有請部長來請市部長委員長部長早部長食安五環我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督\n\n2\n00:00:28,147 --> 00:00:55,115\n對但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您\n\n3\n00:00:56,015 --> 00:01:17,785\n認不認為同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的\n\n4\n00:01:18,865 --> 00:01:41,412\n這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主\n\n5\n00:01:46,673 --> 00:02:12,150\n但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商\n\n6\n00:02:16,793 --> 00:02:19,898\n以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬\n\n7\n00:02:22,582 --> 00:02:48,739\n那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的\n\n8\n00:02:49,159 --> 00:03:16,244\n具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是\n\n9\n00:03:17,124 --> 00:03:42,945\n我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以\n\n10\n00:03:44,446 --> 00:04:00,760\n我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的\n\n11\n00:04:04,463 --> 00:04:26,058\n那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟\n\n12\n00:04:26,798 --> 00:04:46,976\n整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚\n\n13\n00:04:47,777 --> 00:05:11,194\n不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商\n\n14\n00:05:15,737 --> 00:05:36,725\n那請問部長食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔\n\n15\n00:05:38,566 --> 00:06:02,729\n跟委員報告因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核\n\n16\n00:06:03,189 --> 00:06:25,749\n那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他doublecounting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台\n\n17\n00:06:28,391 --> 00:06:47,506\n食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速\n\n18\n00:06:48,925 --> 00:07:03,829\n比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢\n\n19\n00:07:07,010 --> 00:07:23,639\n跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路\n\n20\n00:07:24,059 --> 00:07:38,676\n部長審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向\n\n21\n00:07:39,076 --> 00:08:06,119\n那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致\n\n22\n00:08:07,140 --> 00:08:30,305\n所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是\n\n23\n00:08:32,725 --> 00:08:42,608\n如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口\n\n24\n00:08:47,350 --> 00:09:10,172\n那部長這個食安重要那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎\n\n25\n00:09:12,967 --> 00:09:26,106\n有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物\n\n26\n00:09:29,481 --> 00:09:46,797\n雜質藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業報告量很高啊\n\n27\n00:09:49,528 --> 00:10:06,007\n要比本身欸一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討我們看到的是過去的檢討的\n\n28\n00:10:07,749 --> 00:10:33,118\n過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPICGMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施\n\n29\n00:10:33,778 --> 00:10:47,173\n那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告\n\n30\n00:10:49,736 --> 00:11:14,082\n那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢\n\n31\n00:11:15,735 --> 00:11:36,245\n這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶\n\n32\n00:11:40,987 --> 00:12:02,012\n11億很多患病癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產撤照一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的\n\n33\n00:12:03,775 --> 00:12:23,200\n無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席謝謝署長部長謝謝陳偉學部長署長請回\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4379\t27407\t謝謝主席 有請部長來 請市部長委員長 部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督\n28147\t55115\t對 但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您\n56015\t77785\t認不認為 同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的\n78865\t101412\t這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主\n106673\t132150\t但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商\n136793\t139898\t以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬\n142582\t168739\t那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的\n169159\t196244\t具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是\n197124\t222945\t我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以\n224446\t240760\t我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的\n244463\t266058\t那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟\n266798\t286976\t整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚\n287777\t311194\t不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商\n315737\t336725\t那請問部長 食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍 差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔\n338566\t362729\t跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核\n363189\t385749\t那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台\n388391\t407506\t食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速\n408925\t423829\t比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢\n427010\t443639\t跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路\n444059\t458676\t部長 審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向\n459076\t486119\t那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致\n487140\t510305\t所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是\n512725\t522608\t如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口\n527350\t550172\t那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎\n552967\t566106\t有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物\n569481\t586797\t雜質 藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件 但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢 還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業 報告量很高啊\n589528\t606007\t要比本身欸 一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的\n607749\t633118\t過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施\n633778\t647173\t那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法 不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告\n649736\t674082\t那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢\n675735\t696245\t這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌 這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能 可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話 那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶\n700987\t722012\t11億很多患病 癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長 累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產 撤照 一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的\n723775\t743200\t無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 學部長 署長 請回\n","txt":"謝謝主席 有請部長來 請市部長委員長 部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督\n對 但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您\n認不認為 同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的\n這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主\n但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商\n以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬\n那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的\n具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是\n我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以\n我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的\n那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟\n整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚\n不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商\n那請問部長 食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍 差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔\n跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核\n那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台\n食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速\n比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢\n跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路\n部長 審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向\n那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致\n所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是\n如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口\n那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎\n有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物\n雜質 藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件 但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢 還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業 報告量很高啊\n要比本身欸 一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的\n過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施\n那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法 不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告\n那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢\n這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌 這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能 可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話 那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶\n11億很多患病 癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長 累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產 撤照 一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的\n無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 學部長 署長 請回\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.379 --> 00:27.407\n謝謝主席有請部長來請市部長委員長部長早部長食安五環我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督\n\n00:28.147 --> 00:55.115\n對但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您\n\n00:56.015 --> 01:17.785\n認不認為同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的\n\n01:18.865 --> 01:41.412\n這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主\n\n01:46.673 --> 02:12.150\n但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商\n\n02:16.793 --> 02:19.898\n以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬\n\n02:22.582 --> 02:48.739\n那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的\n\n02:49.159 --> 03:16.244\n具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是\n\n03:17.124 --> 03:42.945\n我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以\n\n03:44.446 --> 04:00.760\n我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的\n\n04:04.463 --> 04:26.058\n那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟\n\n04:26.798 --> 04:46.976\n整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚\n\n04:47.777 --> 05:11.194\n不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商\n\n05:15.737 --> 05:36.725\n那請問部長食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔\n\n05:38.566 --> 06:02.729\n跟委員報告因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核\n\n06:03.189 --> 06:25.749\n那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他doublecounting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台\n\n06:28.391 --> 06:47.506\n食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速\n\n06:48.925 --> 07:03.829\n比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢\n\n07:07.010 --> 07:23.639\n跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路\n\n07:24.059 --> 07:38.676\n部長審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向\n\n07:39.076 --> 08:06.119\n那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致\n\n08:07.140 --> 08:30.305\n所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是\n\n08:32.725 --> 08:42.608\n如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口\n\n08:47.350 --> 09:10.172\n那部長這個食安重要那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎\n\n09:12.967 --> 09:26.106\n有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物\n\n09:29.481 --> 09:46.797\n雜質藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業報告量很高啊\n\n09:49.528 --> 10:06.007\n要比本身欸一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討我們看到的是過去的檢討的\n\n10:07.749 --> 10:33.118\n過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPICGMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施\n\n10:33.778 --> 10:47.173\n那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告\n\n10:49.736 --> 11:14.082\n那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢\n\n11:15.735 --> 11:36.245\n這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶\n\n11:40.987 --> 12:02.012\n11億很多患病癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產撤照一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的\n\n12:03.775 --> 12:23.200\n無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席謝謝署長部長謝謝陳偉學部長署長請回\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.379,"end":27.407,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長來 請市部長委員長 部長早部長食安五環 我不會要求你背的啦但是江署長大家要背清楚這個源頭的管理然後重建生產的管理然後整合產製銷整個生產鏈然後加重惡意廠商的責任還有全民監督"},{"start":28.147,"end":55.115,"text":"對 但是這個食安五營看起來看起來是一再證明他失靈了啦 不定失靈了因為不論是巴西蛋或是這個我們之前去年的那個蘇丹紅的那個辣椒粉還是這次的黑心腸事件因為衛福部沒有能夠在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖這個源頭而是讓民眾的檢舉還有媒體的爆料才會去動才啟動這件事情所以部長您"},{"start":56.015,"end":77.785,"text":"認不認為 同不同意五環現在是失靈中五環現在是形同虛設跟委員報告確實我們對食安部分還有努力的空間來確保國人的食用安全不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果讓我們很容易可以追蹤追溯很快的掌握所有的"},{"start":78.865,"end":101.412,"text":"這個不合格產品的流向以這一次的事件為例我們很快就可以掌握它的上游它的屠宰場是不是合法然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡然後銷售可能到哪裡去可以快速的回應最源頭的那個地方對不對我們都像從源頭開始嘛你本身念醫療嘛就大家都從源頭開始從源頭這個五雲還是在後面應變您剛才報告也是發生問題的時候怎麼處理為主"},{"start":106.673,"end":132.15,"text":"但是我們還是希望這個食安五雲要能夠更主動的跟委員報我們會去加強這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊那就是案發了嘛那請問部長你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎有看過那請問我幾個問題請教部長那剛剛你是報告但是我在確認是全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人463人那他們要負責稽查多少的廠商"},{"start":136.793,"end":139.898,"text":"以目前我們合格登記的食品業者大概是71萬"},{"start":142.582,"end":168.739,"text":"那你觉得这样的稽查人力够吗以去年为例它是稽查大概16万家次如果我们用简单的数学来算的话大概差不多4年会稽查一次不过因为现在的食品厂它是需要符合GHP的规范所以它的稽查可能有一些是属于我们叫做专案稽查的为多就是对于比较高风险的"},{"start":169.159,"end":196.244,"text":"具風險性的會加強去查核倒不會是全部都是random去做就是有高風險名單嗎有有有那這次黑心廠有在高風險名單裡面嗎這一次的這個廠商有沒有在高風險名單裡面這一個廠商是沒有在你們是以廠商為名單項目有的是項目有的是廠商那這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險那現在會進去了是不是"},{"start":197.124,"end":222.945,"text":"我们在这个事件之后就扩大市场查核所以全国各县市卫生局都在市场上进行抽验还有业者也都去集合到目前为止是检验出来的产品我现在听到你的人力然后versus这个所有厂商我知道一定是不够所以你是一定要有一些重点那一般是四年一次其实很久了那你说现在有高风险这个食品清单所以"},{"start":224.446,"end":240.76,"text":"我們再來瞭解今天也許沒這麼多時間你怎麼是建立的那已經發生重大案件是不是當然就列入然後頻率等等這個集合的頻率那我這樣問是因為審計部他有講審計部的報告有提到當然部分事件查驗稽查人員上有缺額代補時他認為你們人力是不夠的"},{"start":244.463,"end":266.058,"text":"那食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦未聚焦在稽查這個高風險項目這是神蹟部講的嘛所以對不對食藥署請問這樣子的話神蹟部提出這樣報告您有什麼想法嗎我們非常感謝神蹟部的指導那原則上高風險尤其化學物質高風險我們的食品源裡面的勾結跟"},{"start":266.798,"end":286.976,"text":"整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項其實這些已經列進去這一次的H2O2事件裡面其實雙氧水其實是非常非常簡單的它是在食品添加物裡面稱為叫做殺菌劑所以它是可用的但是食品級跟工業級是我們是切得很清楚"},{"start":287.777,"end":311.194,"text":"不能夠使用的就不能使用這家業者明知不可使用而使用您我的背景都知道等級級數的意思但是就是說你未來因為已經審計部寫的這麼清楚了所以你未來怎麼做我們針對這個高風險的化學物質我們其實做所謂的業者勾肌跟過去的有必要去做更精準的所以我們在人工智慧導入的部分人力不夠你就要想方設法來看看盯住這些廠商"},{"start":315.737,"end":336.725,"text":"那請問部長 食藥署公佈流向花了兩天那中央跟地方的數據差了600多公斤那部長你有說是重複計算但我覺得這已經感受不是算數問題而是一個食安的信任問題因為從最高主管機關你連追查流向都有差了一倍 差了一倍這個數字那民眾會不安心喔"},{"start":338.566,"end":362.729,"text":"跟委員報告 因為一開始當然這個都要跟他這一次的產品是這樣他的公司登記是在台北市他的倉儲是在新北市那他的工廠就是在做這個加工的是在屏東縣所以他有跨縣市那我們追蹤他的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核"},{"start":363.189,"end":385.749,"text":"那一開始是以他的出貨為主但是他double counting所以後來根據金流才確認你有解釋所以雲很重要嘛聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要嘛那根據食安法規定業者要保留這個跟藥品的概念一樣保留產品那供應商就是這個供貨的進貨那產品流向就是出貨等資訊那食藥署也有建立那個食品藥物業者登錄平台"},{"start":388.391,"end":407.506,"text":"食品本身食品有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統但是我們再來談審計部這個查核後發現他說部分縣市沒有事實查證並且輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發表我把他講的重點講完以後那我再請部長來回答或是署長那部分縣市業者在平台登錄的字號的加速"},{"start":408.925,"end":423.829,"text":"比少於營業稅籍登記的加速喔或是說在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製藥工廠的這個但是這邊登記卻沒有在這個平台有登記喔那同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號請問消息署你們怎麼來改善這些資料呢"},{"start":427.01,"end":443.639,"text":"跟委員報告這個追蹤追溯很重要所以呢我們就這幾年一直在努力的就是用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤那目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報所以這個還有一里路最後一里路"},{"start":444.059,"end":458.676,"text":"部長 審計部會寫出來嘛會寫出來就是你們要警訊就是還有一點點這個剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或電子發 使用電子發票讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向"},{"start":459.076,"end":486.119,"text":"那還差那一點我們會繼續來努力來折承這個衛生局最後有一個是勾基剛剛您說的那個是勾基登錄的勾基就是他的稅政機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料一樣上次我請您跟這個家族簽手的意思一樣大家都不簽手那以今年來講勾基出來這71萬家裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致"},{"start":487.14,"end":510.305,"text":"所以我們每年會有這樣的這個勾擊的方式不是我說的 審計部的報告也說源頭的控管是失效的那政府建置這個化學雲8年 仍然沒辦法跟其他的系統連線起來那化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對以致於讓工業級的這個雙氧水流入食品部長其實民眾不是很挑剔的我覺得民眾對政府包容度是很大我想他們只是想安心的吃一碗大腸麵線是不是"},{"start":512.725,"end":522.608,"text":"如今每年都有重大的食安事件發生而且不只一樁所以現有的制度是失靈的所以我們希望中央跟地方要聯防不要各自為政應該馬上補這個破口"},{"start":527.35,"end":550.172,"text":"那部長這個食安重要 那個藥品也是一樣這個食安我感同身受這一次這個大腸我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到您就任部長大概就第一次所以我深深的體會這個是全民非常關注所以絕對是嚴懲不戴那同樣藥品也是一樣有關永豐市民食鹽水的監察報告出爐囉 出爐囉請問部長跟署長看過了嗎"},{"start":552.967,"end":566.106,"text":"有看過報告指出近10年間我們先扣除藥品本身以外的像包裝的異常藥品的標示或是醫事人員操作不當可是他本身永豐生產的藥品發生什麼混入異物"},{"start":569.481,"end":586.797,"text":"雜質 藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌的疑慮他藥品不良品的通報高達71件 但是藥署好像沒有沒有接過這個報告呢 還是說接了這個報告但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業 報告量很高啊"},{"start":589.528,"end":606.007,"text":"要比本身欸 一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題很可怕跟委員報告一下 委員指出的這一項議題我們都有看到報告裡面內涵所以我去年 我從今年的二月份來之後我其實逐項的檢討 我們看到的是過去的檢討的"},{"start":607.749,"end":633.118,"text":"過程當中有很多我們精進所以我們確定現在在任何的GMPPIC GMP的藥廠之下我們絕對不能夠允許有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是說當然不管是不是你在實藥署去年2月那你還沒有上任去永豐檢查時他就認定永豐下面是實藥署的文字多次含複說詞均未能反駁稽查所見的缺失情形也沒有積極改進措施"},{"start":633.778,"end":647.173,"text":"那這不是代表食藥署現行的這個查場頻率或是要求廠商要限期取出具體的改善這個做法根本還是沒有辦法 不好嘛還是這個無法有效的掌握藥品的這個藥廠的實境改善情形你們自己這樣寫跟委員這邊報告"},{"start":649.736,"end":674.082,"text":"那邊我們看到相關的文字後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的他的頻率就不會是一般常態性的頻率PIXGMP常常頻率會不會加強他的頻率會繼續調整那我再簡單問兩個問題這個部長在裁罰方面或是署長除了勒令停業請問署長永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢誰做的決定法源依據在哪裡罰了多少錢我可以知道嗎永豐罰了多少錢"},{"start":675.735,"end":696.245,"text":"這跟委員要報告一下我確確的金錢罰錢的部分我是沒有辦法一下回答我再回後再跟你說明因為造成全國醫療恐慌 這個金額足以反映嗎我在想說你可能 可怕你沒有罰錢而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億托來第二年的穩定專案嘛我想那個施措你知道嘛那這樣的話 那這筆錢其實很多人在等耶"},{"start":700.987,"end":722.012,"text":"11億很多患病 癌症病人都在等這筆錢那你就準備要再讓他繼續犯這個錯嗎所以就是累犯的部分我希望這個部長署長 累犯的部分你是不是要訂累犯停產 撤照 一個門檻黑名單名單或是說他累犯很危險而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水你是不是要做無預警的"},{"start":723.775,"end":743.2,"text":"無預警的查核你告訴他然後你去查都只查到這麼樣子你無預警的查核你會發現更多的真相我覺得這個部分是不行的謝謝委員 建議我們會把它納入來處理有關查核懇罰的部分我想會後請把資料處分的部分的詳細情形我們再跟委員提供謝謝主席 謝謝署長 部長謝謝陳偉 學部長 署長 請回"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，我不會要求你背「食安五環」，但姜署長當然要背清楚，源頭管理、重建生產管理……"],["石部長崇良：源頭管理，然後整合產、製、銷的生產鏈。"],["陳委員昭姿：加強查驗、加重惡意廠商的責任及全民監督。"],["石部長崇良：對！"],["陳委員昭姿：但是食安五環看起來一再證明失靈了！部長，它失靈了！不論是巴西蛋或是去年蘇丹紅的辣椒粉，還是這次的黑心腸事件，衛福部沒能在第一時間主動偵測或者封鎖源頭，而是由民眾的檢舉及媒體的爆料才啟動這件事情，所以部長認不認為、同不同意五環現在是失靈中？五環現在是形同虛設？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們對食安部分確實還有努力的空間，來確保國人的食用安全，不過因為有食安五環過去推動的結果，讓我們很容易可以追蹤、追溯，很快地掌握所有不合格產品的流向。以這一次事件為例，我們很快就可以掌握它的上游、它的屠宰場是不是合法，然後它的下游倉儲在哪裡、銷售可能到哪裡去，可以快速地回應。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。但是最源頭的那個地方，對不對？我們都希望能從源頭開始，您本身唸醫療嘛……"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：大概都從源頭開始，這個五環還是在後面的應變，您剛才報告也是以發生問題的時候，怎麼處理為主，但是我們還是希望這個食安五環能夠work，請問……"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們會去加強，像……"],["陳委員昭姿：這次也是靠民眾檢舉啊！"],["石部長崇良：對、對！我們不諱言……"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是案發了……"],["石部長崇良：是、是。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問部長，你看過審計部對我國食品安全管理的報告嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有、有！"],["陳委員昭姿：有看過，很好。我幾個問題請教部長，剛剛你是報告，但我再確認一次，全國地方衛生局食品稽查人力共有多少人？"],["石部長崇良：463。"],["陳委員昭姿：463人，他們要負責稽查多少的廠商？"],["石部長崇良：以目前我們合格登記的食品業者，大概是71萬。"],["陳委員昭姿：你覺得這樣的稽查人力夠嗎？"],["石部長崇良：以去年為例，他是稽查大概16萬家次，如果我們用簡單的數學來算的話，大概差不多四年會稽查一次。"],["陳委員昭姿：會被稽查一次。"],["石部長崇良：不過，因為現在的食品廠需要符合GHP的規範，所以它的稽查可能有一些是屬於我們叫作專案稽查的為多，就是對於比較高風險的、具風險性的會加強查核，倒不會全部都是random去做。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您談到高風險，所以有高風險名單嗎？"],["石部長崇良：有、有！"],["陳委員昭姿：你有高風險名單，有名單？"],["石部長崇良：對！"],["陳委員昭姿：這次黑心腸有在高風險名單裡面嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這一次的這個廠商……"],["陳委員昭姿：有沒有在高風險名單裡面？"],["石部長崇良：這一個廠商是沒有在……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們是以廠商為名單？"],["石部長崇良：對、對！有的是項目、有的是廠商。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是以項目，但是……"],["石部長崇良：這個項目本身沒有在我們的高風險。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有在裡面，現在案發以後會進去了，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：我們在事件之後就擴大市場查核，所以全國各縣市衛生局都在市場上進行抽驗，還有也都去稽核業者，到目前為止，檢驗出來的產品都沒有殘留。"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在聽到你的人力，然後versus所有的廠商，我知道一定不夠，所以你一定要有一些重點。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：一般是四年一次，其實也很久了，你說現在有高風險的食品清單，所以我們再來了解，今天也許沒這麼多時間，你們是怎麼建立的？已經發生重大案件，是不是當然就列入，然後稽核的頻率等等……"],["石部長崇良：對、對！"],["陳委員昭姿：我這樣問是因為審計部的報告有提到「部分市縣查驗稽查人員尚有缺額待補實，食品衛生查驗計畫未聚焦在稽查高風險項目」，他認為你們人力是不夠的喔！這是審計部說的，對吧？食藥署，請問審計部提出這樣報告，您有什麼想法嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們非常感謝審計部的指導。原則上高風險，尤其是化學物質高風險，我們在食品雲裡面的勾稽及整個跟化學署共同的62項跟19項，這些已經列進去，這一次的H₂O₂事件裡面，雙氧水其實是非常、非常簡單的，它是在食品添加物裡面稱為殺菌劑，所以它是可用的，但食品級跟工業級我們切得很清楚，不能夠使用的就不能使用，這家業者明知不可使用而使用。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，你、我的背景都知道等級、級數的意思。"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是因為審計部已經寫得這麼清楚了，所以你未來會怎麼做？"],["姜署長至剛：針對高風險的化學物質，我們其實是做所謂的業者勾稽，跟過去的……"],["陳委員昭姿：稽核頻率要增加。"],["姜署長至剛：有必要去做更精準的……所以在人工智慧導入的部分，我們其實在每年……"],["陳委員昭姿：人力不夠你就要想方設法再來看看，盯住這些廠商嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：請問部長，食藥署公布流向花了兩天，中央與地方的數據差了六百多公斤，部長說是重複計算，但我覺得這已經不是算術問題，而是一個食安的信任問題，因為身為最高主管機關，連追查流向都出現差了一倍的數字，民眾會不安心。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為一開始當然都要跟……這次的產品……"],["陳委員昭姿：六百多公斤耶！"],["石部長崇良：這次的產品是這樣，它的公司登記是在臺北市、倉儲是在新北市、工廠加工是在屏東縣，所以它有跨縣市，那我們追蹤它的流向當然一開始還是要配合地方衛生局去查核，一開始是以它的出貨為主，但是它double counting，所以後來根據金流才確認，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：你有解釋，所以雲很重要嘛！聯繫有系統的雲是非常重要。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：根據食安法規定，業者要保留這些資訊，跟藥品的概念一樣，保留產品、供應商供貨、進貨、產品流向、出貨等資訊，食藥署也有建立食品藥物業者登錄平台……"],["石部長崇良：它的來源及出處都要記錄。"],["陳委員昭姿：食品本身也有追溯追蹤管理資訊系統。但是我們再來談，審計部查核後發現，部分縣市沒有適時查證並輔導業者完成電子申報及使用電子發票……我把他講的重點講完以後，我再請部長或署長回答；部分縣市業者在平台登錄字號家數少於營業稅籍登記家數，或是在經濟部產業發展署登記的食品製造工廠，卻沒有在這個平台登記，甚至同一個業者還有兩個以上的登錄字號，請問食藥署署長，你們怎麼改善這些資料呢？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，追蹤、追溯很重要，所以我們這幾年一直努力用電子發票開立電子申報來追蹤，目前大概是九成到九成五都已經採用電子申報，所以這個還有最後一哩路要把它做成。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，審計部會寫出來就是要你們有警訊。"],["石部長崇良：對，就是還有一點點，剛剛講的九成到九成五已經完成電子申報或使用電子發票，讓我們容易掌握整個食品鏈的流向，那還差那一點，我們會繼續來努力責成衛生局……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，審計部……"],["石部長崇良：最後有一個是勾稽，剛剛您說的是勾稽，登錄的勾稽就是稅徵機關的資料跟我們這邊登錄的資料要一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：一樣嘛！就是不牽手嘛！上次我請您跟姜署長牽手的意思一樣，大家都不牽手。"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，以今年來講，勾稽出來這71萬家……"],["陳委員昭姿：地方、中央不牽手，上游與下游不牽手。"],["石部長崇良：裡面大概有4萬家左右是不一致，所以我們每年會有這樣的勾稽方式再去……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不是我說的，審計部的報告也說源頭控管是失效的，政府建置化學雲8年，仍然沒辦法與其他系統連線起來，化學物質的流向沒有辦法比對，以至於讓工業級雙氧水流入食品製程。部長，其實民眾不是很挑剔的，我覺得民眾對政府包容度很大，他們只是想安心地吃一碗大腸麵線，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：如今，每年都有重大食安事件發生，而且不只一樁，顯示現有的制度是失靈的，所以我們希望中央與地方要聯防，不要各自為政，應該馬上補破口。"],["石部長崇良：會。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，食安重要，藥品也是一樣。"],["石部長崇良：食安，我感同身受，以這一次的大腸，我幾乎每個禮拜都會吃到……"],["陳委員昭姿：您第一次就任部長就遇到……"],["石部長崇良：所以我深深地體會這個全民非常關注，所以絕對是嚴懲不貸。"],["陳委員昭姿：現在其他訊息太多，否則這個是大焦點喔！","同樣是藥品，有關永豐生理食鹽水的監察報告出爐了，請問部長跟署長看過了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["姜署長至剛：有看過。"],["陳委員昭姿：有看過，好，報告指出近十年間，先扣除藥品本身以外的，像扣除包裝異常、藥品標示錯誤或是醫事人員操作不當，可是永豐本身生產的藥品發生混入異物、雜質、藥品外觀異常或藥品涉及染菌疑慮，其藥品不良品的通報高達71件，但是食藥署好像沒有接獲這個報告呢？還是接了這個報告，但是沒有去做無預警的一些查核作業？報告量很高啊！藥品本身耶！"],["石部長崇良：我請姜署長說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：一個注射劑裡面這麼多問題，很可怕！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告一下，委員指出的這項議題，我們都有看到報告裡面的內涵，所以我從今年2月份來之後，我其實逐項檢討，我們看到的是，過去檢討的過程當中有很多值得我們精進，所以我們確定現在在任何的GMP、PIC/S GMP的藥廠底下，我們絕對不能夠允許……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，有一件事我覺得比較不能原諒的是，當然不管是不是你已經……食藥署去年2月，你還沒有上任，去永豐檢查時就認定永豐……下面是食藥署的文字，「多次函復說辭均未能反駁稽查所見缺失情形，也沒有積極改進措施。」這是不是代表食藥署現行的查廠頻率或是要求廠商限期提出具體改善做法根本還是沒有辦法？沒用嘛！還是無法有效地掌握藥廠的實際改善情形，你們自己這樣寫喔！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，那邊我們看到相關的文字，後來我們針對所謂曾經有違規的，他的頻率就不是一般常態性的頻率、PIC/S GMP廠的頻率，會加強其頻率、會積極調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個食安五環一樣，我再簡單問兩個問題，部長或是署長，在裁罰方面，除了勒令停業，請問署長，永豐究竟被裁罰多少錢？誰做的決定？法源依據在哪裡？罰了多少錢，我可以知道嗎？永豐罰了多少錢？沒有罰錢是不是？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員要報告一下，確切的罰錢的部分，我是沒有辦法一下回答，會後我再跟您說明。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你會後給我。因為造成全國醫療恐慌，這個金額足以反映嗎？我在想你們可能都沒有罰錢，而且健保署為了這件事還提了11億，後來第二年的穩定專案，我想石部長您知道，這樣的話，這筆錢其實很多人在等，11億，很多罕病、癌症病人都在等這筆錢，那你就準備要讓他再繼續犯這個錯嗎？所以這是累犯的部分，我希望部長、署長，累犯的部分是不是要訂定累犯停產、撤照的門檻或黑名單，或是他累犯很危險，而且供應全國大量的生理食鹽水，你是不是要做無預警的查核，你告訴他，然後你去查都只查到這樣子，你無預警的查核會發現更多的真相，我覺得這個部分是……"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員的建議，我們會把他納入處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：有關於查核懲罰的部分，會後請提供資料讓我做參考。"],["石部長崇良：處分的部分的詳細情形，我們再跟委員提供。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝，謝謝主席，謝謝署長、部長。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長、署長，請回。","接下來林月琴委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}