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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"態\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,861 --> 00:00:08,249\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來請部長吳元豪\n\n2\n00:00:14,631 --> 00:00:34,393\n部長今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市桃園市高雄市屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬已經開出去的\n\n3\n00:00:35,994 --> 00:00:58,434\n那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿\n\n4\n00:00:59,235 --> 00:01:18,244\n新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天\n\n5\n00:01:19,184 --> 00:01:43,810\n比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動\n\n6\n00:01:44,870 --> 00:02:06,197\n你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的\n\n7\n00:02:08,018 --> 00:02:21,409\n你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉\n\n8\n00:02:30,662 --> 00:02:40,787\n跟委員報告因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知6月的時候\n\n9\n00:02:49,812 --> 00:03:17,619\n檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的\n\n10\n00:03:18,963 --> 00:03:30,808\n該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的\n\n11\n00:03:34,910 --> 00:03:47,219\n是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉\n\n12\n00:04:02,811 --> 00:04:24,805\n那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化\n\n13\n00:04:29,415 --> 00:04:39,202\n那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢\n\n14\n00:04:43,307 --> 00:05:10,567\n這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期\n\n15\n00:05:11,728 --> 00:05:33,456\n共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎\n\n16\n00:05:34,332 --> 00:06:01,380\n我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查\n\n17\n00:06:03,741 --> 00:06:18,218\n初步調查就是行政調查嘛行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查\n\n18\n00:06:19,099 --> 00:06:34,908\n但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的\n\n19\n00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:48,917\n然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為\n\n20\n00:06:50,492 --> 00:07:12,908\n如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索\n\n21\n00:07:13,749 --> 00:07:25,022\n在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚吃下肚誰要負責誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在署長你講了大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎\n\n22\n00:07:34,213 --> 00:07:53,240\n行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號\n\n23\n00:07:55,543 --> 00:08:21,620\n有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號\n\n24\n00:08:22,921 --> 00:08:43,752\n地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項\n\n25\n00:08:46,994 --> 00:09:06,771\n我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水雙氧水在那裡\n\n26\n00:09:08,086 --> 00:09:30,060\n然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去怕證據被消失那我們我跟你說實案法大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了\n\n27\n00:09:32,782 --> 00:09:57,144\n照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了\n\n28\n00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:04,711\n你們在這裡如果教書長說的交給司法單位檢警單位比較保全\n\n29\n00:10:06,277 --> 00:10:31,584\n那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼\n\n30\n00:10:32,591 --> 00:10:50,290\n我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量自行決定\n\n31\n00:10:51,531 --> 00:11:19,606\n全責不分你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查不調查有沒有調查部長剛才講的你都不知道頂頭都不知道那這樣子有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性\n\n32\n00:11:20,666 --> 00:11:43,378\n所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們\n\n33\n00:11:45,751 --> 00:11:51,566\n是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講\n\n34\n00:11:53,055 --> 00:12:20,916\n立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是\n\n35\n00:12:23,238 --> 00:12:37,579\n十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管\n\n36\n00:12:38,769 --> 00:13:04,442\n沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓\n\n37\n00:13:07,506 --> 00:13:22,412\n6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做\n\n38\n00:13:25,973 --> 00:13:46,179\n我因為有問這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件蘇丹紅事件所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權\n\n39\n00:13:47,543 --> 00:14:13,786\n直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後\n\n40\n00:14:14,747 --> 00:14:29,413\n然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定\n\n41\n00:14:30,513 --> 00:14:44,692\n人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了揭弊了食藥署\n\n42\n00:14:46,830 --> 00:15:05,449\n卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務\n\n43\n00:15:07,130 --> 00:15:33,176\n讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢\n\n44\n00:15:34,016 --> 00:15:58,378\n不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已\n\n45\n00:15:59,284 --> 00:16:15,538\n你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩\n\n46\n00:16:16,539 --> 00:16:31,958\n今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議尤其是\n\n47\n00:16:32,839 --> 00:16:56,268\n食藥署很常以偵查不公開唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因\n\n48\n00:16:57,208 --> 00:17:12,999\n而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责\n\n49\n00:17:13,860 --> 00:17:33,517\n在這種狀況裡面部長我在這裡要求這個內部內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職有沒有人要被追究責任行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊\n\n50\n00:17:34,478 --> 00:17:52,684\n這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革\n\n51\n00:17:53,932 --> 00:18:06,607\n這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項\n\n52\n00:18:10,546 --> 00:18:29,894\n就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做\n\n53\n00:18:30,754 --> 00:18:55,724\n然後再來諮詢上4月的諮詢延誘在而還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的行政究責制度改善好謝謝好謝謝委員提醒部長署長今天會排這個狀態\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4861\t8249\t好 謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來 請部長吳元豪\n14631\t34393\t部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的\n35994\t58434\t那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿\n59235\t78244\t新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天\n79184\t103810\t比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動\n104870\t126197\t你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的\n128018\t141409\t你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉\n150662\t160787\t跟委員報告 因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知 6月的時候\n169812\t197619\t檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的\n198963\t210808\t該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的\n214910\t227219\t是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉\n242811\t264805\t那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化\n269415\t279202\t那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢\n283307\t310567\t這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期\n311728\t333456\t共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎\n334332\t361380\t我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查\n363741\t378218\t初步調查就是行政調查嘛 行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查\n379099\t394908\t但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的\n398210\t408917\t然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為\n410492\t432908\t如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索\n433749\t445022\t在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了 大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎\n454213\t473240\t行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號\n475543\t501620\t有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號\n502921\t523752\t地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項\n526994\t546771\t我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡\n548086\t570060\t然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法 大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了\n572782\t597144\t照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了\n597990\t604711\t你們在這裡 如果教書長說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全\n606277\t631584\t那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼\n632591\t650290\t我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定\n651531\t679606\t全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查 不調查有沒有調查 部長剛才講的 你都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子 有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性\n680666\t703378\t所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們\n705751\t711566\t是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講\n713055\t740916\t立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是\n743238\t757579\t十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管\n758769\t784442\t沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓\n787506\t802412\t6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做\n805973\t826179\t我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權\n827543\t853786\t直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後\n854747\t869413\t然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定\n870513\t884692\t人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署\n886830\t905449\t卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務\n907130\t933176\t讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢\n934016\t958378\t不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已\n959284\t975538\t你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩\n976539\t991958\t今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是\n992839\t1016268\t食藥署很常以偵查不公開 唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因\n1017208\t1032999\t而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责\n1033860\t1053517\t在這種狀況裡面 部長我在這裡要求這個內部 內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職 有沒有人要被追究責任 行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊\n1054478\t1072684\t這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革\n1073932\t1086607\t這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項\n1090546\t1109894\t就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做\n1110754\t1135724\t然後再來諮詢 上4月的諮詢 延誘在而 還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個狀態\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來 請部長吳元豪\n部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的\n那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿\n新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天\n比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動\n你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的\n你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉\n跟委員報告 因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知 6月的時候\n檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的\n該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的\n是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉\n那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化\n那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢\n這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期\n共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎\n我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查\n初步調查就是行政調查嘛 行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查\n但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的\n然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為\n如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索\n在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了 大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎\n行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號\n有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號\n地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項\n我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡\n然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法 大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了\n照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了\n你們在這裡 如果教書長說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全\n那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼\n我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定\n全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查 不調查有沒有調查 部長剛才講的 你都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子 有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性\n所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們\n是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講\n立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是\n十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管\n沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓\n6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做\n我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權\n直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後\n然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定\n人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署\n卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務\n讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢\n不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已\n你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩\n今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是\n食藥署很常以偵查不公開 唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因\n而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责\n在這種狀況裡面 部長我在這裡要求這個內部 內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職 有沒有人要被追究責任 行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊\n這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革\n這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項\n就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做\n然後再來諮詢 上4月的諮詢 延誘在而 還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個狀態\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.861 --> 00:08.249\n好謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來請部長吳元豪\n\n00:14.631 --> 00:34.393\n部長今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市桃園市高雄市屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬已經開出去的\n\n00:35.994 --> 00:58.434\n那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿\n\n00:59.235 --> 01:18.244\n新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天\n\n01:19.184 --> 01:43.810\n比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動\n\n01:44.870 --> 02:06.197\n你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的\n\n02:08.018 --> 02:21.409\n你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉\n\n02:30.662 --> 02:40.787\n跟委員報告因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知6月的時候\n\n02:49.812 --> 03:17.619\n檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的\n\n03:18.963 --> 03:30.808\n該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的\n\n03:34.910 --> 03:47.219\n是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉\n\n04:02.811 --> 04:24.805\n那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化\n\n04:29.415 --> 04:39.202\n那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢\n\n04:43.307 --> 05:10.567\n這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期\n\n05:11.728 --> 05:33.456\n共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎\n\n05:34.332 --> 06:01.380\n我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查\n\n06:03.741 --> 06:18.218\n初步調查就是行政調查嘛行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查\n\n06:19.099 --> 06:34.908\n但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的\n\n06:38.210 --> 06:48.917\n然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為\n\n06:50.492 --> 07:12.908\n如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索\n\n07:13.749 --> 07:25.022\n在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚吃下肚誰要負責誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在署長你講了大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎\n\n07:34.213 --> 07:53.240\n行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號\n\n07:55.543 --> 08:21.620\n有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號\n\n08:22.921 --> 08:43.752\n地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項\n\n08:46.994 --> 09:06.771\n我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水雙氧水在那裡\n\n09:08.086 --> 09:30.060\n然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去怕證據被消失那我們我跟你說實案法大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了\n\n09:32.782 --> 09:57.144\n照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了\n\n09:57.990 --> 10:04.711\n你們在這裡如果教書長說的交給司法單位檢警單位比較保全\n\n10:06.277 --> 10:31.584\n那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼\n\n10:32.591 --> 10:50.290\n我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量自行決定\n\n10:51.531 --> 11:19.606\n全責不分你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查不調查有沒有調查部長剛才講的你都不知道頂頭都不知道那這樣子有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性\n\n11:20.666 --> 11:43.378\n所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們\n\n11:45.751 --> 11:51.566\n是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講\n\n11:53.055 --> 12:20.916\n立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是\n\n12:23.238 --> 12:37.579\n十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管\n\n12:38.769 --> 13:04.442\n沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓\n\n13:07.506 --> 13:22.412\n6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做\n\n13:25.973 --> 13:46.179\n我因為有問這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件蘇丹紅事件所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權\n\n13:47.543 --> 14:13.786\n直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後\n\n14:14.747 --> 14:29.413\n然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定\n\n14:30.513 --> 14:44.692\n人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了揭弊了食藥署\n\n14:46.830 --> 15:05.449\n卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務\n\n15:07.130 --> 15:33.176\n讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢\n\n15:34.016 --> 15:58.378\n不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已\n\n15:59.284 --> 16:15.538\n你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩\n\n16:16.539 --> 16:31.958\n今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議尤其是\n\n16:32.839 --> 16:56.268\n食藥署很常以偵查不公開唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因\n\n16:57.208 --> 17:12.999\n而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责\n\n17:13.860 --> 17:33.517\n在這種狀況裡面部長我在這裡要求這個內部內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職有沒有人要被追究責任行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊\n\n17:34.478 --> 17:52.684\n這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革\n\n17:53.932 --> 18:06.607\n這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項\n\n18:10.546 --> 18:29.894\n就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做\n\n18:30.754 --> 18:55.724\n然後再來諮詢上4月的諮詢延誘在而還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的行政究責制度改善好謝謝好謝謝委員提醒部長署長今天會排這個狀態\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.861,"end":8.249,"text":"好 謝謝主席是不是請我們時部長來 請部長吳元豪"},{"start":14.631,"end":34.393,"text":"部長 今天這個屏東百威的食品案件這個產品流向了台北市 桃園市 高雄市 屏東縣那你們說要重乘五千萬以上那最後是罰多少錢五千四百萬 已經開出去的"},{"start":35.994,"end":58.434,"text":"那算是很重的罰處分應該是歷年來算是最重的歷年來最重的整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿第一個是10月3號露出的整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿"},{"start":59.235,"end":78.244,"text":"新聞稿裡面地方屏東地檢署說我們在10月1號依法搜索所以10月1號去搜索10月3號地檢署才發出這個新聞稿你們食藥署是隔了一天"},{"start":79.184,"end":103.81,"text":"比地檢署還要慢那你們也發了一個新聞稿你們的新聞稿呢講說我們食藥署近日會同地檢署農業部保七法務部調查局這個衛生局前去稽查現在講的這個10月4號的新聞稿講的好像是你們主動"},{"start":104.87,"end":126.197,"text":"你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位去進場進去查核到底是檢調找你們還是你們找檢調因為這個案子是由我們這個南區這個中心去移送給檢調的"},{"start":128.018,"end":141.409,"text":"你們南區中心移送給檢調那你們南區中心食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子這個有檢舉是檢舉來的檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉跟誰檢舉"},{"start":150.662,"end":160.787,"text":"跟委員報告 因為目前整個案子還在偵辦中我們有偵查這個案件據我所知 6月的時候"},{"start":169.812,"end":197.619,"text":"檢舉人是6月就檢舉了跟誰檢舉跟食藥署南區管理中心所以恰恰好是跟我們衛福部食藥署檢舉的6月誰收下這一起檢舉案部長6月的時候檢舉你什麼時候才知道的署長你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的"},{"start":198.963,"end":210.808,"text":"該不會跟我一樣跟大家一樣10月3號看到新聞露出才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧而且這個案子處分的是5400萬如部長剛才所說的"},{"start":214.91,"end":227.219,"text":"是這幾年來最重的處分由此可知照你們所說明的新聞稿講的說他是故意違規嚴重破壞社會秩序安定嚴重影響食品安全所以你們才重罰他五千四百萬如果這個案子這麼重大你六月就跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉"},{"start":242.811,"end":264.805,"text":"那這個案子部長署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道的那你們很早就知道了是不是跟委員報告確實這個案子我掌握到這個情形大概是比委員早一點而已啦所以這個我們內部有要求檢討整個那個內部的通報的機制我們會去強化"},{"start":269.415,"end":279.202,"text":"那署長是什麼時候知道是你直接的夜館單位食藥署自己接受檢舉為什麼6月檢舉10月1號才展開行動呢"},{"start":283.307,"end":310.567,"text":"這邊跟委員做進一步的報告我們介紹到這訊息之後當然是分層是一件事情第二部分呢我們研判這個是明知故犯的那目前雙陽水是在食品級的是我們的食品添加物所以我們認為它現在的健康風險我覺得是在但是呢這是明知故犯的所以我們就啟動了移轉保期共同偵查在偵查的過程中移轉保期"},{"start":311.728,"end":333.456,"text":"共同徵查然後跟農業部然後記憶部呢後來是成案的時候是在7月份就成案了我們持續有去追蹤瞭解這個案情的發展那後續有很多的細節我想可以跟委員做記憶結果據你所知不管保七還是任何的行政部門有在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎"},{"start":334.332,"end":361.38,"text":"我跟委員進一步說明就我們的了解其實相當嚴密的一個犯罪組織所以在這過程中行政單位我們的行政權會發現有這個司法權進入這樣的部長你聽看你衛福部你剛才報告過書面報告也還存在你們的食安事件處理流程第一個你剛才才說明應變處理第一個叫初步調查初步調查"},{"start":363.741,"end":378.218,"text":"初步調查就是行政調查嘛 行政調查根據食安法第41條人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉然後根據41條普通程序是地方政府介入調查"},{"start":379.099,"end":394.908,"text":"但第二項41條第二項上面講中央主管機關於必要時亦得為前項規定之措施直接介入調查現在你現在講他故意的而且重大的而且是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的"},{"start":398.21,"end":408.917,"text":"然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為"},{"start":410.492,"end":432.908,"text":"如果一個重大的食安事件我跟你食藥署檢舉了你食藥署依法都可以直接介入進行行政調查你都不願意你從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調去進到他的工廠裡面去搜索"},{"start":433.749,"end":445.022,"text":"在整個過程當中這幾個月黑心的食品又讓多少人下肚 吃下肚誰要負責 誰要負責現在怎麼樣大家現在 署長你講了 大家講說我們交給減掉就好了食藥署這麼好當嗎"},{"start":454.213,"end":473.24,"text":"行政單位都等司法單位去做去調查就好了自己都不用行政調查法律 食安法第41條放底下是要從什麼部長 署長你們和立法院在座的大家說明從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號"},{"start":475.543,"end":501.62,"text":"有沒有任何的行政調查你覺得完全沒有行政調查直接交給檢調就好了到10月1號才進去這樣子做對嗎事實上不是這樣子我們在6月23號的時候查獲的時候因為相關的內容我們預計的時候呢跟保7總隊覺得市政不足是在6月底我們預計本來7月14號要行政稽查但7月9號"},{"start":502.921,"end":523.752,"text":"地檢署就確定成案所以在成案的情形下由司法調查並不是代表說食藥署沒有要做行政調查的準備因為呢確定是成案有這樣子的司法的介入我們才能有機會在這樣子的不要再講了啦署長我們食安法第41條第2項"},{"start":526.994,"end":546.771,"text":"我們如果檢舉人直接跟你施藥署檢舉而且檢附這麼多的證據我敢說他檢附的證據很多而且照片罪證確鑿在那裡而且11號後來檢警調進去裡面場區一看直接就是工業級的漂海水 雙氧水在那裡"},{"start":548.086,"end":570.06,"text":"然後你們說7月底減掉就裂案了所以你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去 怕證據被消失那我們 我跟你說實案法 大家說行政調查業者會滅證那我們整部法律整個行政調查是不是可以廢了"},{"start":572.782,"end":597.144,"text":"照你們的講法只有減掉進去才能夠完整的保全證據如果這樣子的話那我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查而你們今天到立法院來報告你們認為食安事件的處理流程最重要的應變處理第一步你就叫做行政調查了"},{"start":597.99,"end":604.711,"text":"你們在這裡 如果教書長說的交給司法單位 檢警單位比較保全"},{"start":606.277,"end":631.584,"text":"那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼要幹什麼所以我今天要講說你們對檢舉案件的消極態度你今天這個講法是要掩蓋人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造繼續販賣黑心食品這個要誰負責任誰要負責而且我們擔心的是什麼"},{"start":632.591,"end":650.29,"text":"我們擔心的是連食藥署的內部對檢舉案件的處理流程這麼的缺乏有效的監督管理機制你們要不要使這個行政調查都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量 自行決定"},{"start":651.531,"end":679.606,"text":"全責不分 你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎制度面的缺失 制度面的缺失隨便這些基層單位要不要行政調查 不調查有沒有調查 部長剛才講的 你都不知道 頂頭都不知道那這樣子 有沒有可能這種制度面的缺失會造成吃案的可能性"},{"start":680.666,"end":703.378,"text":"所以啊署長我當時就跟你講我當時質詢的時候就跟你講我們過去的食品安全的議題都是靠接避者揭發而今天這個案子你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知辭的說你們會同然後找這個檢警調不是嘛不是嘛不是你會同他們"},{"start":705.751,"end":711.566,"text":"是人家檢舉了你們擱置著沒有處理然後我還跟你講"},{"start":713.055,"end":740.916,"text":"立法院上次我諮詢過署長在今年的4月24號我說食品藥品通通都是接避者主動去揭發財產生問題你們才去做風險評估才去做風險控管過去這樣子然後呢署長你告訴我我們食安五環會發生作用食安五環最核心的價值不是直接保證你回答大家的他可以追蹤去處追蹤來處不是"},{"start":743.238,"end":757.579,"text":"十三五環的登錄制度最終是要發揮預警的效果可以在問題還沒有發生就可以主動發現問題然後讓政府可以做到風險控管"},{"start":758.769,"end":784.442,"text":"沒有完全都沒有預警的效果通通都沒有更不要講今天是靠檢舉到今天仍然是靠檢舉而今天的大問題是食藥署的稽查是以前都抓不到鬼的而今天人家檢舉了有告訴你鬼在哪裡你們是連有鬼都不抓"},{"start":787.506,"end":802.412,"text":"6月到10月這個東西有鬼也懶得抓都叫檢調去抓就好了食藥署是跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎為什麼食藥署慣性是這樣子做"},{"start":805.973,"end":826.179,"text":"我因為有問 這個是有原因的啦從黑青油事件 蘇丹紅事件 所有的食安事件食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法食髓滋味就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權"},{"start":827.543,"end":853.786,"text":"直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了因為到時候立委所知立委質詢通通一律這樣子制式回答我唸給你們聽報告委員因為現在檢調偵查當中偵查不公開所以無法提供資料和進度這個就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發後"},{"start":854.747,"end":869.413,"text":"然後檢調加入調查以後都這樣子可以搪設立法院和立委報告委員檢調調查了偵查不公開我現在不能夠告訴你但是我要講人民何其無辜啊保定"},{"start":870.513,"end":884.692,"text":"人民的健康安全就是因為食藥署這樣怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了檢舉了 揭弊了食藥署"},{"start":886.83,"end":905.449,"text":"卻將全部的精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處以平息民怨罰五千四百萬可是你們忽略了放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務"},{"start":907.13,"end":933.176,"text":"讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多部長你覺得這樣合理嗎你自己可以接受嗎這個我跟委員一樣在這個事情處理過程當中我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告那麼包含接受檢舉之後的所有的SOP的檢討還有內部通報流程的檢討那麼以及呢"},{"start":934.016,"end":958.378,"text":"不能夠那麼只單純依賴檢調我們要拿出我們的行政權那麼來做跟地方的衛生局強化這個即時性的反應那麼不要讓這個因為移送檢調之後反而造成綁手綁腳因為照署長的講法中央食藥署好像變成總機而已只負責轉案而已"},{"start":959.284,"end":975.538,"text":"你們自己真的是要我們食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮有人檢舉不肖業者主管機關放水吃案以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩"},{"start":976.539,"end":991.958,"text":"今天黑心的大腸案直接跟我們食藥署檢舉了竟然直接放棄行政調查權如果檢調沒有動作那這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海而我們中央主管機關很倡議 尤其是"},{"start":992.839,"end":1016.268,"text":"食藥署很常以偵查不公開 唯有拒絕對外說明事實上是用司法程序拒額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布這一次就是徹底的掩蓋自己為善盡行政監督之責所以我們今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足人力不足也不是主因"},{"start":1017.208,"end":1032.999,"text":"而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰还有可能发生的里应外合内神通外鬼所以如果这种状况有鬼就不抓了所以这不仅是行圣施责还可能构成毒指和泄密的刑责"},{"start":1033.86,"end":1053.517,"text":"在這種狀況裡面 部長我在這裡要求這個內部 內部要不要啟動這個行政調查調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對有沒有人獨職 有沒有人要被追究責任 行政責任這個是對人民才能交代啊"},{"start":1054.478,"end":1072.684,"text":"這樣才能夠從實主動調查和風險管理的角色建立一個有效的預警和查核機制不要讓黑心食品的事件一次一次人家檢舉檢舉以後就還變成次度怠惰檢舉人變成受害者內部調查就責改革"},{"start":1073.932,"end":1086.607,"text":"這有沒有可能會做跟委員報告在這個事件那當然我們在接貨檢舉很快就移送檢調只不過在這個處理的過程當中我們如何更積極行政單位如何更積極我們內部會來做檢討41條第二項"},{"start":1090.546,"end":1109.894,"text":"就有了然後你剛才的報告的第一點就有了所以包括你們署長我們認為他上任應該是會更積極勇於任事沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉整個案子連行政調查都不做"},{"start":1110.754,"end":1135.724,"text":"然後再來諮詢 上4月的諮詢 延誘在而 還不到半年接避者的案件已經被行政帶動到全部交給檢調就好了 中央食藥署變成總級轉轉轉轉這樣不對的 行政究責 制度改善好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒部長署長 今天會排這個狀態"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（9時57分）謝謝主席，是不是請我們石部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，今天屏東百威的食品案件，這個產品流向了臺北市、桃園市、高雄市、屏東縣，那你們說要重懲5,000萬以上，最後是罰多少錢？"],["石部長崇良：5,400萬，罰單已經開出去了。"],["林委員淑芬：5,400萬？那算是很重的處分？"],["石部長崇良：應該是歷年來算最重的。"],["林委員淑芬：歷年來最重的，那整個狀況我們看到幾個新聞稿，第一個是10月3號露出的，整個新聞露出第一時間是屏東地方檢察署的新聞稿，新聞稿裡面屏東地檢署說：我們在10月1號依法搜索。所以10月1號去搜索，10月3號地檢署才發出新聞稿，你們食藥署是隔了一天，比地檢署還要慢，你們也發了一個新聞稿，你們的新聞稿講說：我們食藥署近日會同地檢署、農業部、保七、法務部調查局、衛生局前去稽查。這個10月4號的新聞稿講得好像是你們主動，你說你們主動會同檢調所有的相關單位進場去查核，到底是檢調找你們，還是你們找檢調？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為這個案子是由我們南區中心移送給檢調的，所以等於是……"],["林委員淑芬：你們南區中心移送給檢調，那你們食藥署南區中心為什麼會知道有這個案子？"],["石部長崇良：這個有檢舉。"],["林委員淑芬：是檢舉來的？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["林委員淑芬：檢舉人是什麼時候檢舉？跟誰檢舉？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，因為目前這整個案子都還在偵辦中，我們有偵查。委員，我們私下再……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你不能在這邊說這句話喔！"],["石部長崇良：私下我們再跟委員提供資料。"],["林委員淑芬：這個案件據我所知，檢舉人是6月就檢舉了。是跟誰檢舉？是跟食藥署南區管理中心，所以恰恰好是跟衛福部食藥署檢舉的。6月是誰收下這起檢舉案的？部長，6月的時候檢舉，你什麼時候才知道的？署長，你什麼時候才知道有這個案件的？該不會是跟我一樣、跟大家一樣，直到10月3號看到新聞露出，才知道10月1號地檢署發動搜查吧？而且這個案子處分了5,400萬，誠如部長剛才所說的，這是這幾年來最重的處分。","由此可知，照你們新聞稿所說明的，它是故意違規，嚴重破壞社會秩序安定，嚴重影響食品安全，所以你們才重罰它5,400萬。如果這個案子這麼重大，6月就有人跟衛福部的食藥署檢舉，部長、署長不會跟我一樣是看到新聞露出才知道這個案子的吧？你們早就知道了，是不是？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，這個案子就我所掌握到的情形，確實是大概比委員早一點而已。所以這個我們內部……"],["林委員淑芬：早一點噢？那署長呢？"],["石部長崇良：有要求檢討整個內部通報的機制，我們會去強化。"],["林委員淑芬：那署長是什麼時候知道的？你是直接的業管單位，食藥署自己接受檢舉，為什麼6月檢舉，10月1號才展開行動呢？"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做進一步的報告，我們接收到訊息之後，當然分層是一件事情；第二部分，我們研判這個是明知故犯的，目前雙氧水是在食品級的，是食品添加物。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！我知道啦！"],["姜署長至剛：我們認為它現在的健康風險是在，但這是明知故犯的，所以我們就啟動移轉保七共同偵查。在偵查的過程中我們了解……"],["林委員淑芬：移轉保七共同偵查？"],["姜署長至剛：對，然後跟農業部進一步……後來成案的時候是在7月，我們有持續去追蹤、了解這個案情的發展，後續也有很多細節可以跟委員進一步說明。"],["林委員淑芬：結果據你所知，不管保七還是任何的行政部門，在10月1號之前有採取任何動作嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我跟委員進一步說明，就我們的了解，其實這是一個相當嚴密的犯罪組織，所以在這過程中，我們行政單位的行政權後來發現有司法權介入這樣的……"],["林委員淑芬：好，沒關係，不用……今天部長你聽聽看，你們衛福部剛才報告過，書面報告也還存在。你們的食安事件處理流程，你剛才才說明的應變處理，第一個叫初步調查，初步調查就是行政調查嘛！根據食安法第四十一條，人家直接跟你們食藥署檢舉，然後根據第四十一條的普通程序是地方政府介入調查，但第四十一條第二項上面講「中央主管機關於必要時，亦得為前項規定之措施」，就是直接介入調查。你現在講它是故意的，而且是重大的，還是人家檢舉檢附這麼多證據的，然後你們今天來立法院報告的時候，第一個講應變處理就是要做行政調查，但你們通通都沒有任何的行政作為。","如果一個重大的食安事件，有人跟你食藥署檢舉了，你食藥署依法可以直接介入進行行政調查，但你都不願意。從6月檢舉到10月1號檢警調進到它的工廠裡面去搜索，在整個過程當中，這幾個月又讓多少人把黑心的食品吃下肚？誰要負責？現在是怎樣？你們大家現在……"],["姜署長至剛：這邊跟委員做簡短地報告……"],["林委員淑芬：署長你講了，大家都說我們交給檢調就好了。食藥署這麼好當嗎？行政單位都等司法單位去做、去調查就好了，自己都不用行政調查？食安法第四十一條放在那裡是要做什麼的？部長、署長，你們和立法院在座的大家說明，從6月初人家檢舉到10月1號，有沒有任何的行政調查？你覺得完全沒有行政調查，直接交給檢調就好了，到10月1號才進去……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員……"],["林委員淑芬：這樣子做對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：事實上不是這樣子的。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你說說看。"],["姜署長至剛：我們在6月23號查獲的時候，因為相關的內容，我們預計的時候……我們跟保七總隊覺得施政不足是在6月底，本來預計7月14號要做行政稽查，但7月9號地檢署就確定成案。所以在成案的情形之下就交由司法調查，並不代表食藥署沒有做行政調查的準備。因為是確定成案，有司法的介入，我們才有機會在這樣的重要案件裡面能夠……"],["林委員淑芬：不要再講了啦！署長，食安法第四十一條第二項，如果檢舉人直接跟你食藥署檢舉，而且檢附這麼多的證據，我敢說他檢附的證據很多，而且照片就是罪證確鑿在那裡。後來10月1號檢警調進廠區裡面一看，就是直接看到工業級的漂白水、雙氧水在那裡。然後你們說7月底檢調就立案了，你們從6月初到7月這一個多月都沒有進去，怕證據被消失。","部長你說說看，大家說做行政調查業者會滅證，那食安法整部法律、整個行政調查是不是可以廢了？照你們的講法，只有檢調進去才能夠完整的保全證據。如果是這樣子的話，我們為什麼還需要食安法裡面所規定的行政調查？而你們今天到立法院來報告，認為在食安事件的處理流程中最重要的應變處理，第一步就叫做行政調查，你們在這裡，如果照署長說的，交給司法單位、檢警單位比較保全，那我們行政調查要留著幹什麼？","我今天要講的是，你們對檢舉案件的消極態度，照你今天的這個講法就是在掩蓋。人家直接跟你食藥署檢舉，你在檢舉期間放任違法的業者繼續加工製造、繼續販賣黑心食品，這個誰要負責？而且我們擔心的是什麼？我們擔心的是，連食藥署內部對檢舉案件的處理流程都這麼缺乏有效的監督管理機制，連你們要不要實施行政調查，都讓你們南區管理中心基層單位自行裁量、自行決定，可謂權責不分，你在制度面完全都沒有任何值得檢討的嗎？制度面的缺失……"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們一定會積極改善的。"],["林委員淑芬：制度面的缺失就是隨便讓這些基層單位決定要不要做行政調查，就像部長剛才說的，連有沒有調查你們都不知道。上面都不知道的話，這種制度面的缺失有沒有造成吃案的可能性？所以啊，署長，我當時質詢的時候就跟你講，我們過去食品安全的議題都是靠揭弊者揭發，而對於今天的這個案子，你們的新聞稿還可以恬不知恥地說你們有會同，然後找檢警調……不是嘛！不是你會同他們，而是人家檢舉了，你們擱置著沒有處理，然後我還跟你講，上次我在立法院質詢過署長，在今年的4月24號，我說食品、藥品通通都是揭弊者主動去揭發才產生問題，你們才去做風險評估，才去做風險控管。過去是這樣子，然後署長你告訴我，我們食安五環會發生作用。食安五環最核心的價值不是剛才部長在這裡回答大家的，可以追蹤去處、追蹤來處，不是！食安五環的登錄制度，最終是要發揮預警的效果，可以在問題還沒有發生前就可以主動發現問題，讓政府可以做到風險控管。沒有！完全都沒有預警的效果，通通都沒有！更不要講今天是靠檢舉，到今天仍然是靠檢舉，而今天的大問題是食藥署以前的稽查都抓不到鬼的，但今天人家檢舉了，告訴你鬼在哪裡，你們是連有鬼都不抓！從6月拖到10月，這個東西有鬼也懶得抓，都叫檢調去抓就好了，食藥署跟在檢調的背後就好了嗎？部長，你聽好，為什麼食藥署是慣性這樣子做？這個是有原因的，從黑心油事件、蘇丹紅事件，所有的食安事件，食藥署現在找到一套應付立法院質詢的方法，食髓知味，就是直接放棄手頭上握有的行政調查權，直接讓檢調體系辦案就好了，因為到時候立委索資、立委質詢，通通一律這樣子制式回答，我唸給你們聽：報告委員，因為現在檢調偵查當中，偵查不公開，所以無法提供資料和進度。這就是現在食藥署在每次食安事件爆發、檢調加入調查以後，都可以這樣子搪塞立法院和立委：報告委員，檢調調查了，偵查不公開，我現在不能夠告訴你。但是我要講人民何其無辜啊！部長，人民的健康安全，就是因為食藥署的怠惰和瀆職而受到威脅，現在這個案件是直接跟食藥署陳情了、檢舉了、揭弊了，食藥署卻將全部精力放在事後對違法業者進行最嚴厲的懲處，以平息民怨，罰5,400萬，可是你們忽略了、放棄了食藥署最核心的事前行政監督和立即調查的義務，讓無辜的人民繼續吃更多。部長，你覺得這樣合理嗎？你自己可以接受嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我跟委員一樣，在這件事情處理過程當中，我已經要求內部要先提檢討報告，包含接受檢舉之後的所有SOP的檢討，還有內部通報流程的檢討，以及不能夠只單純依賴檢調，我們要拿出我們的行政權跟地方衛生局強化即時性的反應，不要因為移送檢調之後，反而造成綁手綁腳。"],["林委員淑芬：因為照署長的講法，中央食藥署好像變成總機而已，只負責轉案而已，食安管理最大的隱憂就是主管機關跟不肖業者可能存在裡應外合的疑慮，有人檢舉不肖業者，主管機關放水吃案，以前還曾經發生過將檢舉者的資料外洩。今天黑心大腸案直接跟食藥署檢舉了，竟然直接放棄行政調查權，如果檢調沒有動作，這種黑心的檢舉案是不是石沉大海？而中央主管機關很常以偵查不公開為由，拒絕對外說明，尤其是食藥署，事實上是用司法程序巨額罰款作為體制失能的遮羞布，這一次就是澈底地掩蓋自己未善盡行政監督之責。所以今天食安的問題不是只有人力不足，人力不足也不是主因，而是抓不到鬼和制度性的怠惰，還有可能發生的裡應外合、內神通外鬼，如果是這種狀況，大概有鬼就不抓了，這不僅是行政失職，還可能構成瀆職和洩密的刑責。在這種狀況裡面，部長，我在這裡要求內部要不要啟動行政調查，調查你們內部到底整個處理的程序對不對，有沒有人瀆職、有沒有人要被追究行政責任？這樣對人民才能交代啊！這樣才能夠重拾主動調查和風險管理的角色，建立一個有效的預警和查核機制，不要再讓黑心食品事件一次一次發生，人家檢舉之後還變成制度怠惰、檢舉人變成受害者，內部調查、究責、改革，這有沒有可能會做？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，在這個事件，當然我們在接獲檢舉後，很快就移送檢調，只不過在處理的過程當中，行政單位如何更積極，我們內部會來做檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：第四十一條第二項就有了，然後你剛才報告的第一點就有了，包括你們署長，我們認為他上任應該是會更積極，勇於任事，沒想到這麼大的醜聞就剛好發生在署長身上！人家跟你們中央食藥署檢舉，整個案子連行政調查都不做，在4月的質詢言猶在耳，還不到半年，揭弊者的案件已經被行政怠惰到全部交給檢調就好了，中央食藥署變成總機轉、轉、轉，這樣是不對的，請行政究責，制度改善。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：提醒部長、署長，今天會排這個專案報告一定是有特殊的原因，謝謝。","接下來請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}