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\"text\": \"海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 368.715, \"end\": 369.776, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"嘯\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 369.776, \"end\": 369.836, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 369.836, \"end\": 369.916, \"score\": 0.581}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 369.916, \"end\": 370.036, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 370.036, \"end\": 370.236, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 370.236, \"end\": 370.336, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 370.336, \"end\": 370.576, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 370.576, \"end\": 370.876, \"score\": 0.743}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 370.876, \"end\": 370.956, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 370.956, \"end\": 371.036, \"score\": 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803.381, \"end\": 803.401, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 803.401, \"end\": 803.421, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,864 --> 00:00:04,105\n我心裡面一直看著朝偉好謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早\n\n2\n00:00:22,435 --> 00:00:44,868\n好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害\n\n3\n00:00:47,489 --> 00:00:51,751\n所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的\n\n4\n00:01:07,958 --> 00:01:30,893\n所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方\n\n5\n00:01:32,173 --> 00:01:36,497\n讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以\n\n6\n00:01:49,028 --> 00:01:56,832\n不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為\n\n7\n00:02:18,684 --> 00:02:25,388\n整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚\n\n8\n00:02:47,800 --> 00:03:03,234\n該中央擔的絕不推諉但該地方做的也要讓地方讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠夠不夠嚴格執行\n\n9\n00:03:13,183 --> 00:03:30,378\n不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了\n\n10\n00:03:39,926 --> 00:03:47,411\n非常多次吧我剛剛報告有七次以上甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣部長\n\n11\n00:04:07,185 --> 00:04:20,977\n是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責\n\n12\n00:04:22,478 --> 00:04:30,540\n那有關這方面的救責的部分除了院長提到說救災為先救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠\n\n13\n00:04:46,903 --> 00:04:51,145\n確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個doublecheck的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分\n\n14\n00:05:07,995 --> 00:05:29,122\n好所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎\n\n15\n00:05:37,301 --> 00:06:02,795\n不這其實是防空我相信大家都比較熟悉這個這個從小聽到大大家都有練習認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好部長我告訴你我覺得你不知道很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝\n\n16\n00:06:08,715 --> 00:06:38,032\n海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chatGPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個\n\n17\n00:06:53,482 --> 00:07:09,872\n部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報\n\n18\n00:07:17,236 --> 00:07:22,000\n大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼\n\n19\n00:07:42,958 --> 00:07:45,680\n所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報\n\n20\n00:07:59,088 --> 00:08:14,292\n其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的\n\n21\n00:08:22,794 --> 00:08:25,675\n所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦\n\n22\n00:08:41,401 --> 00:08:47,103\n可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要\n\n23\n00:09:07,828 --> 00:09:13,009\n所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的\n\n24\n00:09:33,795 --> 00:09:43,218\n可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦\n\n25\n00:09:57,546 --> 00:10:18,093\n報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦\n\n26\n00:10:21,474 --> 00:10:42,347\n所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上\n\n27\n00:10:51,532 --> 00:11:12,577\n進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西\n\n28\n00:11:20,259 --> 00:11:32,921\n可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分\n\n29\n00:11:47,525 --> 00:11:50,071\n就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別\n\n30\n00:11:55,396 --> 00:12:18,438\n零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦\n\n31\n00:12:20,236 --> 00:12:49,876\n好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有\n\n32\n00:12:51,377 --> 00:13:18,954\n那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商\n\n33\n00:13:19,775 --> 00:13:23,421\n好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2864\t4105\t我心裡面一直看著朝偉好 謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好 劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早\n22435\t44868\t好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害\n47489\t51751\t所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情 誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的\n67958\t90893\t所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方\n92173\t96497\t讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以\n109028\t116832\t不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為\n138684\t145388\t整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚\n167800\t183234\t該中央擔的 絕不推諉但該地方做的 也要讓地方 讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊 所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡 人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠 夠不夠嚴格執行\n193183\t210378\t不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了\n219926\t227411\t非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長\n247185\t260977\t是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責\n262478\t270540\t那有關這方面的救責的部分 除了院長提到說救災為先 救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面 但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠\n286903\t291145\t確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分\n307995\t329122\t好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎\n337301\t362795\t不 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個 這個從小聽到大大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸 消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝\n368715\t398032\t海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個\n413482\t429872\t部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報\n437236\t442000\t大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼\n462958\t465680\t所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報\n479088\t494292\t其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的\n502794\t505675\t所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦\n521401\t527103\t可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要\n547828\t553009\t所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的\n573795\t583218\t可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦\n597546\t618093\t報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦\n621474\t642347\t所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上\n651532\t672577\t進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西\n680259\t692921\t可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分\n707525\t710071\t就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別\n715396\t738438\t零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦\n740236\t769876\t好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有\n771377\t798954\t那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商\n799775\t803421\t好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委\n","txt":"我心裡面一直看著朝偉好 謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好 劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早\n好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害\n所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情 誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的\n所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方\n讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以\n不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為\n整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚\n該中央擔的 絕不推諉但該地方做的 也要讓地方 讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊 所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡 人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠 夠不夠嚴格執行\n不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了\n非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長\n是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責\n那有關這方面的救責的部分 除了院長提到說救災為先 救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面 但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠\n確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分\n好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎\n不 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個 這個從小聽到大大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸 消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝\n海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個\n部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報\n大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼\n所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報\n其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的\n所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦\n可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要\n所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的\n可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦\n報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦\n所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上\n進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西\n可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分\n就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別\n零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦\n好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有\n那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商\n好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.864 --> 00:04.105\n我心裡面一直看著朝偉好謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早\n\n00:22.435 --> 00:44.868\n好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害\n\n00:47.489 --> 00:51.751\n所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的\n\n01:07.958 --> 01:30.893\n所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方\n\n01:32.173 --> 01:36.497\n讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以\n\n01:49.028 --> 01:56.832\n不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為\n\n02:18.684 --> 02:25.388\n整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚\n\n02:47.800 --> 03:03.234\n該中央擔的絕不推諉但該地方做的也要讓地方讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠夠不夠嚴格執行\n\n03:13.183 --> 03:30.378\n不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了\n\n03:39.926 --> 03:47.411\n非常多次吧我剛剛報告有七次以上甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣部長\n\n04:07.185 --> 04:20.977\n是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責\n\n04:22.478 --> 04:30.540\n那有關這方面的救責的部分除了院長提到說救災為先救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠\n\n04:46.903 --> 04:51.145\n確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個doublecheck的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分\n\n05:07.995 --> 05:29.122\n好所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎\n\n05:37.301 --> 06:02.795\n不這其實是防空我相信大家都比較熟悉這個這個從小聽到大大家都有練習認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好部長我告訴你我覺得你不知道很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝\n\n06:08.715 --> 06:38.032\n海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chatGPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個\n\n06:53.482 --> 07:09.872\n部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報\n\n07:17.236 --> 07:22.000\n大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼\n\n07:42.958 --> 07:45.680\n所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報\n\n07:59.088 --> 08:14.292\n其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的\n\n08:22.794 --> 08:25.675\n所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦\n\n08:41.401 --> 08:47.103\n可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要\n\n09:07.828 --> 09:13.009\n所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的\n\n09:33.795 --> 09:43.218\n可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦\n\n09:57.546 --> 10:18.093\n報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦\n\n10:21.474 --> 10:42.347\n所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上\n\n10:51.532 --> 11:12.577\n進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西\n\n11:20.259 --> 11:32.921\n可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分\n\n11:47.525 --> 11:50.071\n就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別\n\n11:55.396 --> 12:18.438\n零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦\n\n12:20.236 --> 12:49.876\n好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有\n\n12:51.377 --> 13:18.954\n那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商\n\n13:19.775 --> 13:23.421\n好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.864,"end":4.105,"text":"我心裡面一直看著朝偉好 謝謝主席我們先請劉士芳委員好 劉士芳部長請劉士芳部長主席都是你害我亂掉委員早"},{"start":22.435,"end":44.868,"text":"好部長我請部長直接先站這裡但是其實也是跟剛剛其他上台的所有的行政同行政官員一起想講這段話我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這一個問題這個花蓮艷澀湖造成的災害那確實它造成了很大的人命財產的傷亡傷害"},{"start":47.489,"end":51.751,"text":"所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情 誠如剛剛部長講的但是天然災害沒有辦法完全避免那我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小靠復原把災害復原的最快其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢備詢的目的"},{"start":67.958,"end":90.893,"text":"所以我覺得我們本於國會議員的職責我們是以花蓮作為例子但是所有檢討的機制未來其實是全國一體可以適用的因為任何一個地方包括像我的新北我們也有山區我們也會發生土石流也會有水災所以所有的機制是一起檢討不分中央跟地方"},{"start":92.173,"end":96.497,"text":"讓整個機制可以做到最好不讓你同意這個狀態完全同意所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架凡是來這裡吵架的坦白講就是不想把事情做好但是各位官員站在備詢台上面我也希望你們可以"},{"start":109.028,"end":116.832,"text":"不要拘泥於這個過去跟立法委員之間這樣子的一個關係委員在問問題的時候其實該講到哪裡就講到哪裡只有你們把事情分清楚中央該做的你自己擔下來沒有錯但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的中央根本管不到摸不到伸不下去沒有地方政府配合這件事情救災復原就是做不到你也要在這裡講出來讓大家可以明白因為"},{"start":138.684,"end":145.388,"text":"整個救災機制要能夠一體適用是全國人民期待的啊所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡除了市方部長這邊可以比較明確的講哪些是中央的哪些是地方的我覺得這樣很清楚如果還可以再進進我們一起討論嘛但未來其他的部會其實我真的覺得要藉著今天尤其主席給每個委員都10分鐘的時間欸應該要講清楚"},{"start":167.8,"end":183.234,"text":"該中央擔的 絕不推諉但該地方做的 也要讓地方 讓全國人民知道這就是地方政府的權責部長你同意我的說法嗎而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面是啊 所以今天兩大項很清楚嘛一個是人命傷亡 人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠 夠不夠嚴格執行"},{"start":193.183,"end":210.378,"text":"不夠能夠再精進這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分嘛就是撤離而我們看到所有的報告其實農業部在一次一次的這個發布撤離警訊紅色警訊之後在22日的早上7點就說我即將我要發布了然後到真正的一流時間其實是有36個小時左右的時間在這中間發布了"},{"start":219.926,"end":227.411,"text":"非常多次吧 我剛剛報告有七次以上 甚至還有細胞檢訊這個其實就是機制有發布了警訊嘛但地方政府有沒有能夠撤離我們中央怎麼監控執掌讓地方政府能夠嚴格的執行我覺得這才是要討論的部分啦但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離真的 大家也可以來看看要怎麼檢討啊是不是這樣 部長"},{"start":247.185,"end":260.977,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我想委員他側重在監控以及後面的疏散撤離的部分確實這有中央跟地方上在這個協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是不是有各盡善盡職責"},{"start":262.478,"end":270.54,"text":"那有關這方面的救責的部分 除了院長提到說救災為先 救責為後那我們也知道像花蓮地檢署他已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有的這些會議記錄或是所有的通報的機制然後能釐清到底這個責任誰要負責我確實覺得救責是後面 但是沒有一個職責還包括未來你怎麼去督促這個地方政府他能夠"},{"start":286.903,"end":291.145,"text":"確實的執行這個部分我們也可以討論未來在精進的部分怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制這是這次花蓮告訴我們的警訊那再來的話如果財務損失的話其實就是復原要怎麼樣加速我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分"},{"start":307.995,"end":329.122,"text":"好 所以如果是大家都同意這個前提的話那因為質詢時間有限喔所以我本來準備了幾個題目我就就這個細部的題目來跟部長就教比如說好 剛剛說我們在說要撤離其實在撤離的這一次我們有一個大家都有個認知叫做警報系統啊那我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統部長你分不分得出來來 第一個部長這是什麼警報系統你知道嗎"},{"start":337.301,"end":362.795,"text":"不 這其實是防空 我相信大家都比較熟悉這個 這個從小聽到大大家都有練習 認真也練那這個咧是5秒5秒嗎部長你要聽啊 我也不知道是不是5秒5秒啊好 部長 我告訴你 我覺得你不知道 很正常這也是我想呈現的狀況欸 消防署長知道這是什麼嗎我看你的臉色可能也不是特別慶祝"},{"start":368.715,"end":398.032,"text":"海嘯所以我還要在那邊算這是不是5秒嗎因為他會連續發8次到9次部長這個是緊急避難警報也就是根據你們的規則定出來的緊急疏散警報這是在本來的這個警示說要撤離之前理論上應該要發這個警報但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼所以這個是我從chat GPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的狀況好那再來來來第三個第三個第三個"},{"start":413.482,"end":429.872,"text":"部長這就是海嘯警報了啦也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報誤發警示所有這個一流的危險之後大家亂成一團以後最後由中央依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲這個是我們的海嘯警報"},{"start":437.236,"end":442,"text":"大家請聽以這個警報聲為準有這個警報才是真正有異體異流危險的狀態所以部長我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢就是你看空襲警報大家都常常聽常常練習所以我們一聽就知道說這個是什麼意思可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼"},{"start":462.958,"end":465.68,"text":"所以如果突然間你想起這個警報你知道這是什麼嗎你根本不知道所以我們必須要先做預防性上面的告知然後先做兵棋推演然後告知大家而且警報聲不要太多種啦比如說你最後的這個海嘯警報"},{"start":479.088,"end":494.292,"text":"其實大家因為你這樣子大量的發佈一次性發佈大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候大家就很清楚說好就是這個聲音然後呢因為你看他的發佈方式變得跟空襲警報其實是比較接近的是有警政系統直接發佈下去這個大家都聽得到而不是由區公所這邊在做警報這個前面這個緊急疏散的"},{"start":502.794,"end":505.675,"text":"所以他從發布方法發布時機其實都不一樣所以我直接具體的建議我認為啦未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單統一明確不用太多種類不用太多種類不管是他的發布方式或發布時機點我認為這都可以討論啦"},{"start":521.401,"end":527.103,"text":"可以討論啦我想委員的建議非常好我們會朝這個方向來精進好所以這是第一個你看這就是災後我們可以就災情然後來檢討的部分嘛第一個是這樣好了第二個啦災後復原價的部分我想因為我自己本身在第三天啦第二天第三天我就已經到達了這個花蓮這邊的現場我們可以看到真的那個地方就是需要大量的人力進去即便到今天還是需要"},{"start":547.828,"end":553.009,"text":"所以我們有很多的志工進去甚至有所有的青年大家都返家回去但我想問部長我們有沒有可能比照我們的這個性別平等工作法的第20條喔他在家裡有發生其他重大事故去親自照顧時得請家庭照顧假回去回家去幫忙因為那個地方的現場是只有長輩是完全不可能復原的"},{"start":573.795,"end":583.218,"text":"可是我青年人已經大部分都不住在當地啦我都是在台灣台北其他地方上班啊那每天都要請試駕嗎我的試駕夠不夠我能不能夠負擔所以我有沒有機會原力性別平等工作法這個部分災後復原假我也是建請內政部可以討論看看啦"},{"start":597.546,"end":618.093,"text":"報告委員我們如果在災區宣布停止上班上課那在災區的人就沒有問題那現在你所說的就是說他可能是外地要回去是那軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵因為軍公教有比較多的架級現在會碰到說非軍公教的人沒有錯非軍公教的人這恐怕要法律上面要從長計議那大概不是由內政部能夠決定是由勞動部來幫忙我認為這個可以討論啦"},{"start":621.474,"end":642.347,"text":"所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下這個是第二題最後一個啦雖然時間已經到了但是我還是想講一下這個部分啦這個部分是我想這一次我們大家可以看到非常多的所謂產值超人去到了災區現場如果用火車的人次來看的話平常光復鄉一天光復車站一天大概是1000個人進去可是這個災後的12天到現在20天每天平均至少有1萬人以上"},{"start":651.532,"end":672.577,"text":"進到了光復車站裡面我們就實際用車站的人次來看所以人這麼多好但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢我們可以看得到是有些說事實上我自己也經歷到了人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮所以是拿著鏟子在路上走了一個小時兩個小時不知道要幹什麼因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮好民間出現了APP這樣的東西"},{"start":680.259,"end":692.921,"text":"可是有APP我是知道說這裡可能有需要人力我還是不知道我是應該去A還是先去B所以我直接講結論不要再用其他人太多的時間我認為因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加了這個國災防災日的演練那在這個演練當中其實我們把所有的名利也都有納進來可是當時的名利其實是講的是團體救災團體的部分"},{"start":707.525,"end":710.071,"text":"就在團體的部分所以你那是什麼20人以上團體有專業資能等等但我們可以看到這一次是個別"},{"start":715.396,"end":738.438,"text":"零星的每一個人單獨的志工也願意去救災所以我直接建議建請內政部研議啦研議未來的志工統籌怎麼樣運用名利其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中啦這是我具體的建議但請內政部研議啦因為我想這是非常非常大的事情不是現在馬上可以解決的啦"},{"start":740.236,"end":769.876,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教現在的志願工作者服務法是在衛福部那如果需要有這樣子的一個名利加入的話不管他分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工如果他是一個團體的話我們沒有問題譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種子會或是有一些包括委員他們有組織這些的話我們在分派工作比較沒有但是個別的問題呢我們在災後好幾天那個原住民他們就在原住民委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙做分派工作但是仍然會有"},{"start":771.377,"end":798.954,"text":"那未來怎麼做比較精進的部分呢我們可能要從長來檢討看怎麼樣把它變成法規劃或制度化那未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則也就是像這一次我們也在很短的時間內行政院的指導之下開始做志工啊他的那個不特定的平安險不特定人數的平安險那昨天已經有登錄一萬多人就表示很多人是願意投入的那這一部分呢慢慢把它建制化呢我們來努力可能要跨部會來協商"},{"start":799.775,"end":803.421,"text":"好謝謝部長齁我希望期待聽到跨部會的結論謝謝好謝謝蘇宵月圓接下來我們請王美惠召委"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們先請劉世芳部長。"],["主席：請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我請部長先站這裡，但其實也要跟剛剛其他上臺的所有行政官員一起講這段話，我想我們今天其實抱著很沉重的心情一起來講這個問題，也就是花蓮堰塞湖造成的災害，確實它造成了很大的人命、財產的傷亡、傷害，所有的人都不希望發生這樣的事情，誠如剛剛部長講的，天然災害沒有辦法完全避免，我們今天在做的其實就是要靠預防把災害降到最小，靠復原把災害復原得最快，其實就是我們今天在這裡互相質詢、備詢的目的。","所以本於國會議員的職責，我們是以花蓮作為例子，但是所有檢討的機制，其實未來是全國一體可以適用的，因為任何一個地方，包括像我的新北，我們也有山區，我們也會發生土石流，也會有水災，所以所有的機制是一起檢討，不分中央跟地方，讓整個機制可以做到最好。部長，你同意這個狀態吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是，完全同意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全同意嘛，所以任何人其實都不應該是來這裡吵架，凡是來這裡吵架的，坦白講就是不想把事情做好。但是各位官員站在備詢臺上面，我也希望你們可以不要拘泥於過去跟立法委員之間這樣的關係，委員在問問題的時候，該講到哪裡就講到哪裡，只有你們把事情分清楚，中央該做的，你自己擔下來沒有錯，但如果這個部分真的就是地方政府才能夠做的，中央根本管不到、摸不到、伸不下去，沒有地方政府配合，救災復原這件事情就是做不到，你也要在這裡講出來，讓大家可以明白，因為整個救災機制要能夠一體適用，這是全國人民期待的。","所以我會覺得像剛剛的幾位部會首長在這裡，除了世芳部長這邊可以比較明確地講哪些是中央的、哪些是地方的，我覺得這樣很清楚，如果還可以再精進，我們一起討論；但其他的部會，其實我真的覺得要藉著今天，尤其主席給每個委員都是10分鐘的時間，應該要講清楚，該中央擔的絕不推諉，但該地方做的，也要讓地方、讓全國人民知道，這就是地方政府的權責，部長，你同意我的說法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：是，而且我們都有明定在各種不同的法律裡面。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，所以今天兩大項很清楚，一個是人命傷亡，人命傷亡其實該檢討的就是撤離的機制夠不夠、夠不夠嚴格執行、是不是能夠再精進，這就是人命傷亡應該要檢討的部分，就是撤離，而我們看到所有的報告，其實農業部一次、一次地發布撤離警訊、紅色警訊，在22日的早上7點就說我即將要發布了，到真正的溢流時間其實是有36個小時左右，在這中間發布了非常多次，我看報告有7次以上，甚至還有細胞簡訊，這其實就是機制，有發布了警訊，但地方政府是否能夠執行撤離，中央怎麼監控、執掌，讓地方政府能夠嚴格執行，我覺得這才是要討論的部分；但地方在這一次有沒有嚴格執行撤離，大家真的也可以來看看要怎麼檢討，是不是這樣？部長。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教，我想委員側重在監控以及後面的疏散、撤離部分，確實這部分中央跟地方在協同救災或是協同做疏散撤離上面是否都各善盡職責，有關這方面的究責部分，除了院長提到救災為先、究責為後，我們也知道，花蓮地檢署已經在跟各個部會調當時的所有會議紀錄或是所有的通報機制，來釐清到底這個責任誰要負責，我想這個非常地清楚……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我確實覺得究責是後面的事，但是內政部有一個職責還包括未來怎麼去督促地方政府能夠確實執行，這個部分我們也可以討論，未來在精進的部分，怎麼樣去看地方政府有沒有嚴格執行撤離，我覺得這可能要有一個double check的機制，這是這一次花蓮告訴我們的警訊。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：再來，財務損失的部分，就是復原要怎麼樣能夠加速，我覺得這也是我們要討論的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果大家都同意這個前提，因為質詢時間有限，我本來準備了幾個題目，我就就細部的題目來跟部長就教，比如說剛剛我們在說要撤離，其實撤離的部分大家都有個認知，叫做警報系統，我想讓部長先聽聽看幾個警報系統，部長分不分得出來？第一個。","（播放音檔）"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這是什麼警報系統，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：防空。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這其實是防空，我相信大家都比較熟悉這個，這個從小聽到大，大家都有認真演練。那這個呢？","（播放音檔）"],["劉部長世芳：是5秒、5秒嗎？"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，你要聽啊，我也不知道是不是5秒、5秒。部長，我告訴你，我覺得你不知道很正常，這也是我想呈現的狀況，消防署長知道這是什麼嗎？我看你的臉色可能也不是特別清楚。"],["蕭署長煥章：如果是5秒、5秒的話就是海嘯警報。"],["劉部長世芳：海嘯。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我還要在這邊算這是不是5秒嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：因為它會連續發8次到9次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這個是緊急避難警報，也就是根據你們的規則訂出來的緊急疏散警報，這次在本來警示說要撤離之前，理論上應該要發這個警報，但這個警報我根本找不到它是什麼，所以這是我從ChatGPT上面自己按照你們的規則做出來的。","再來第三個。","（播放音檔）"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，這就是海嘯警報了，也就是在花蓮縣政府所謂誤發警報、誤發警示說有溢流的危險，大家亂成一團之後，最後依然是由中央統一說未來請大家聽這個警報聲，這是我們的海嘯警報，大家請以這個警報聲為準，有這個警報才是真正有溢堤、溢流危險的狀態。所以部長，我想在這裡表達的是什麼呢？就是你看，空襲警報大家都常常聽、常常練習，所以我們一聽就知道這個是什麼意思，可是我們依照現在的法規所訂定的緊急疏散警報，坦白講沒有人知道這是什麼，所以如果突然間響起這個警報，你知道這是什麼嗎？你根本不知道啊！"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們必須要先做預防性的告知，先做兵棋推演，然後告知大家。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，而且警報聲不要太多種，比如說最後的這個海嘯警報，因為你這樣子大量地發布、一次性發布，大家的注意力又剛好在這個上面的時候，大家就很清楚就是這個聲音，因為你看它的發布方式是跟空襲警報比較接近的，是由警政系統直接發布下去，這個大家都聽得到，而不是由區公所這邊做警報，也就是緊急疏散警報，所以它們從發布方法、發布時機其實都不一樣。所以我直接具體建議，我認為未來我們可以討論一下告警應該簡單、統一、明確，不用太多種類，不管是發布方式或發布時機點，我認為這都可以討論。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我想委員的建議非常好，我們會朝這個方向來精進。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以這是第一個，你看，這就是災後我們可以就災情來檢討的部分，第一個是這樣。","第二個，災後復原假的部分，我自己本身在第三天就已經到達了花蓮現場，我們可以看到那個地方真的就是需要大量的人力進去，即便到今天還是需要，所以我們有很多的志工進去，甚至所有的青年都返家回去。但是我想問部長，我們有沒有可能比照性別平等工作法第二十條，在家裡發生其他重大事故須親自照顧時，得請家庭照顧假回家去幫忙？因為那個現場只有長輩是完全不可能復原的，可是青年人大部分都不住在當地，都是在臺灣、臺北其他地方上班，每天都要請事假嗎？這些人的事假夠不夠、能不能夠負擔？所以有沒有機會援例性別平等工作法這個部分增訂災後復原假？我也是建請內政部可以討論看看。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們如果在災區宣布停止上班、上課，那在災區的人就沒有問題。現在你所說的就是他可能在外地要回去，軍公教的話我們當然是鼓勵，因為軍公教有比較多的假期；現在會碰到非軍公教的人……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯，部長很清楚。"],["劉部長世芳：關於非軍公教的人，這恐怕在法律上面要從長計議，那個大概不是由內政部能夠決定，這需要由勞動部來幫忙處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒關係，我認為這個可以討論，所以整個行政院可以把這個意見參考一下，這個是第二題。","最後一個，雖然時間已經到了，但是我還是想講一下這個部分。這一次大家可以看到非常多所謂的鏟子超人去到了災區現場，如果用火車人次來看的話，平常光復車站一天大概是1,000個人進去，可是災後到現在20天，每天平均至少有1萬人以上進到了光復車站裡面，我們就實際用車站的人次來看。人這麼多，但是去了以後到底能不能夠適當的分配工作呢？事實上我自己也經歷到，人去到那裡不知道接受誰的指揮，所以拿著鏟子在路上走了1個小時、2個小時，不知道要幹什麼！因為人已經多到不知道要接受誰的指揮。","民間出現了app這樣的東西，有app我是知道這裡可能有需要人力，我還是不知道我應該去A還是先去B。我直接講結論，不要佔用其他人太多的時間，因為我剛剛陪著部長去參加國家防災日的演練，在這個演練當中，其實我們把所有的民力也都納進來，可是當時的民力其實講的是團體、救災團體的部分，所以你那個是20人以上團體、有專業知能等等。但我們可以看到這一次是個別、零星、單獨的志工也願意去救災，所以我直接建請內政部研議，未來的志工統籌、怎麼樣運用民力其實也應該納入你的防災計畫當中，這是我具體的建議，但請內政部研議，我想這是非常、非常大的事情，不是現在馬上可以解決的。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教，現在的志願服務法是在衛福部，如果需要有這樣子的民力加入的話，不管分成專業的分工或是防災上的分工，如果他是一個團體的話，我們沒有問題，譬如說慈濟或是芥菜種會，包括委員他們有組織，這些我們在分派工作比較沒有問題；但是關於個別的問題，在災後好幾天，原住民族委員會就在花蓮車站前面幫忙分派工作，但是仍然會有掛一漏萬。","至於未來怎麼樣做能夠比較精進的部分，我們可能要從長來檢討，看怎麼樣把它變成法規化或制度化，未來我們必須要先讓他採取登記的原則，也就是像這一次，我們也在很短的時間內，在行政院的指導之下開始做志工的不特定人數平安險，昨天已經有登錄一萬多人，就表示很多人是願意投入的，這一部分慢慢把它建制化，我們來努力，可能要跨部會來協商。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝部長，我期待聽到跨部會的結論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員。","接下來我們請王美惠召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}