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00:00:51,606\n那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群\n\n3\n00:00:52,347 --> 00:01:13,391\n所以我在看到我們農業部啊其實這一次是依照這個堰塞湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上\n\n4\n00:01:17,392 --> 00:01:39,221\n甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離\n\n5\n00:01:44,063 --> 00:02:01,174\n這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度\n\n6\n00:02:02,014 --> 00:02:31,094\n所以這一次我很難過的是說那這上這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細\n\n7\n00:02:32,514 --> 00:02:54,590\n我只能写的更细是说因为像你们在土石流跟大规模崩塌的房灾疏散避难规定里面其实有写到说要把这个弱势族群要执行民众的疏散避难与收容其实是相对的写的比较细致一点所以我在这边具体的建议是不是艳色湖这个的避难方案\n\n8\n00:02:55,010 --> 00:03:21,918\n也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行\n\n9\n00:03:22,538 --> 00:03:45,721\n所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21号其实我们就已经通知说就弱势族群请优先赶快撤离但是确实是在这个不管是资讯的掌握上面名册也好或是怎么去疏散这块我想将来都还有在精进空间确保我想在人员的安全的保障这块其实是我们所有防灾最重要的事情\n\n10\n00:03:46,081 --> 00:04:07,062\n好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再咒責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許\n\n11\n00:04:08,343 --> 00:04:27,045\n不如我们地方中央来协助的话那我认为中央就应该要来协助所以我相信救人这件事情没有在分的所以真的拜托如果可以我们就把它定的更细致那如果地方政府他们没有发现这个是必须要改善的问题那我们就来协助吧谢谢委员\n\n12\n00:04:27,165 --> 00:04:31,106\n好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天\n\n13\n00:04:42,352 --> 00:05:04,444\n然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長\n\n14\n00:05:12,234 --> 00:05:29,224\n委員好在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統\n\n15\n00:05:29,764 --> 00:05:51,689\n或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場\n\n16\n00:05:58,291 --> 00:06:16,742\n那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報\n\n17\n00:06:18,703 --> 00:06:38,773\n現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息\n\n18\n00:06:39,913 --> 00:07:06,579\n那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考\n\n19\n00:07:08,780 --> 00:07:34,280\n好這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時\n\n20\n00:07:38,243 --> 00:08:00,240\n那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好\n\n21\n00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:16,924\n好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說\n\n22\n00:08:20,265 --> 00:08:47,923\n政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢\n\n23\n00:08:48,483 --> 00:09:05,367\n我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個\n\n24\n00:09:15,989 --> 00:09:36,319\n調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢\n\n25\n00:09:39,781 --> 00:10:08,328\n報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡\n\n26\n00:10:09,128 --> 00:10:26,335\n那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事\n\n27\n00:10:37,239 --> 00:10:57,546\n所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站\n\n28\n00:10:59,026 --> 00:11:12,671\n分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助\n\n29\n00:11:22,515 --> 00:11:46,889\n第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項\n\n30\n00:11:47,449 --> 00:12:07,452\n是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4324\t8285\t好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷色湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的\n33231\t51606\t那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群\n52347\t73391\t所以我在看到我們農業部啊其實這一次是依照這個堰塞湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上\n77392\t99221\t甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離\n104063\t121174\t這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度\n122014\t151094\t所以這一次我很難過的是說那這上這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細\n152514\t174590\t我只能写的更细是说因为像你们在土石流跟大规模崩塌的房灾疏散避难规定里面其实有写到说要把这个弱势族群要执行民众的疏散避难与收容其实是相对的写的比较细致一点所以我在这边具体的建议是不是艳色湖这个的避难方案\n175010\t201918\t也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行\n202538\t225721\t所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21号其实我们就已经通知说就弱势族群请优先赶快撤离但是确实是在这个不管是资讯的掌握上面名册也好或是怎么去疏散这块我想将来都还有在精进空间确保我想在人员的安全的保障这块其实是我们所有防灾最重要的事情\n226081\t247062\t好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再咒責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許\n248343\t267045\t不如我们地方中央来协助的话那我认为中央就应该要来协助所以我相信救人这件事情没有在分的所以真的拜托如果可以我们就把它定的更细致那如果地方政府他们没有发现这个是必须要改善的问题那我们就来协助吧谢谢委员\n267165\t271106\t好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天\n282352\t304444\t然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長\n312234\t329224\t委員好 在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統\n329764\t351689\t或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場\n358291\t376742\t那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報\n378703\t398773\t現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息\n399913\t426579\t那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考\n428780\t454280\t好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時\n458243\t480240\t那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好\n480740\t496924\t好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說\n500265\t527923\t政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢\n528483\t545367\t我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個\n555989\t576319\t調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢\n579781\t608328\t報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡\n609128\t626335\t那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事\n637239\t657546\t所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站\n659026\t672671\t分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助\n682515\t706889\t第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項\n707449\t727452\t是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员\n","txt":"好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷色湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的\n那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群\n所以我在看到我們農業部啊其實這一次是依照這個堰塞湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上\n甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離\n這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度\n所以這一次我很難過的是說那這上這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細\n我只能写的更细是说因为像你们在土石流跟大规模崩塌的房灾疏散避难规定里面其实有写到说要把这个弱势族群要执行民众的疏散避难与收容其实是相对的写的比较细致一点所以我在这边具体的建议是不是艳色湖这个的避难方案\n也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行\n所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21号其实我们就已经通知说就弱势族群请优先赶快撤离但是确实是在这个不管是资讯的掌握上面名册也好或是怎么去疏散这块我想将来都还有在精进空间确保我想在人员的安全的保障这块其实是我们所有防灾最重要的事情\n好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再咒責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許\n不如我们地方中央来协助的话那我认为中央就应该要来协助所以我相信救人这件事情没有在分的所以真的拜托如果可以我们就把它定的更细致那如果地方政府他们没有发现这个是必须要改善的问题那我们就来协助吧谢谢委员\n好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天\n然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長\n委員好 在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統\n或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場\n那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報\n現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息\n那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考\n好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時\n那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好\n好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說\n政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢\n我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個\n調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢\n報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡\n那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事\n所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站\n分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助\n第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項\n是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.324 --> 00:08.285\n好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷色湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的\n\n00:33.231 --> 00:51.606\n那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群\n\n00:52.347 --> 01:13.391\n所以我在看到我們農業部啊其實這一次是依照這個堰塞湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上\n\n01:17.392 --> 01:39.221\n甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離\n\n01:44.063 --> 02:01.174\n這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度\n\n02:02.014 --> 02:31.094\n所以這一次我很難過的是說那這上這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細\n\n02:32.514 --> 02:54.590\n我只能写的更细是说因为像你们在土石流跟大规模崩塌的房灾疏散避难规定里面其实有写到说要把这个弱势族群要执行民众的疏散避难与收容其实是相对的写的比较细致一点所以我在这边具体的建议是不是艳色湖这个的避难方案\n\n02:55.010 --> 03:21.918\n也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行\n\n03:22.538 --> 03:45.721\n所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21号其实我们就已经通知说就弱势族群请优先赶快撤离但是确实是在这个不管是资讯的掌握上面名册也好或是怎么去疏散这块我想将来都还有在精进空间确保我想在人员的安全的保障这块其实是我们所有防灾最重要的事情\n\n03:46.081 --> 04:07.062\n好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再咒責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許\n\n04:08.343 --> 04:27.045\n不如我们地方中央来协助的话那我认为中央就应该要来协助所以我相信救人这件事情没有在分的所以真的拜托如果可以我们就把它定的更细致那如果地方政府他们没有发现这个是必须要改善的问题那我们就来协助吧谢谢委员\n\n04:27.165 --> 04:31.106\n好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天\n\n04:42.352 --> 05:04.444\n然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長\n\n05:12.234 --> 05:29.224\n委員好在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統\n\n05:29.764 --> 05:51.689\n或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場\n\n05:58.291 --> 06:16.742\n那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報\n\n06:18.703 --> 06:38.773\n現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息\n\n06:39.913 --> 07:06.579\n那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考\n\n07:08.780 --> 07:34.280\n好這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時\n\n07:38.243 --> 08:00.240\n那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好\n\n08:00.740 --> 08:16.924\n好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說\n\n08:20.265 --> 08:47.923\n政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢\n\n08:48.483 --> 09:05.367\n我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個\n\n09:15.989 --> 09:36.319\n調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢\n\n09:39.781 --> 10:08.328\n報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡\n\n10:09.128 --> 10:26.335\n那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事\n\n10:37.239 --> 10:57.546\n所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站\n\n10:59.026 --> 11:12.671\n分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助\n\n11:22.515 --> 11:46.889\n第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項\n\n11:47.449 --> 12:07.452\n是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.324,"end":8.285,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請農業部次長請農業部次長好杜次長早安那今天這個談到花蓮艷色湖的事情其實真的非常難過因為上週我也有去到現場那其實看到現場真的是很震撼也非常難過那我也是在那邊協助了一整天那也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的"},{"start":33.231,"end":51.606,"text":"那首先要請教的次長先請教次長的還是這個精準造冊跟弱勢方案撤離的事情因為其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩然後也很多是行動不便或者是他沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群"},{"start":52.347,"end":73.391,"text":"所以我在看到我們農業部啊其實這一次是依照這個堰塞湖警戒監測跟撤離和演練方案應該是依照這個原則來進行撤離的但是可以看到因為花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群甚至是說可能所有的住戶都沒有精準的造冊導致說第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上"},{"start":77.392,"end":99.221,"text":"甚至到後來對於災民包括如何領便當如何聯繫如何提供物資還有安置的方案等等都變成沒有辦法進行所以精準造冊真的非常的重要尤其是裡面到底有哪一些是弱勢族群應該要優先挑出來的那就剛剛次長的報告其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群甚至要提早進行撤離"},{"start":104.063,"end":121.174,"text":"這個其實我在高雄非常有感因為我們在高雄在做的也都是甚至是黃色警箭就進行預防性的撤離那甚至這個預防性撤離是知道說這一戶家裡有人行動不便那我們派車去載你是做到這種程度"},{"start":122.014,"end":151.094,"text":"所以這一次我很難過的是說那這上這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間去協助他們從家裡帶他們出來這個非常非常的重要甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊第一時間不知道警報聲音可能他聽不到那這些人到底怎麼辦所以我在這邊建議因為其實我看到這個你們依照這個驗色壺警戒監測及撤離演練方案裡面是不是可以把它寫得更細"},{"start":152.514,"end":174.59,"text":"我只能写的更细是说因为像你们在土石流跟大规模崩塌的房灾疏散避难规定里面其实有写到说要把这个弱势族群要执行民众的疏散避难与收容其实是相对的写的比较细致一点所以我在这边具体的建议是不是艳色湖这个的避难方案"},{"start":175.01,"end":201.918,"text":"也把弱勢族群到底如何把這個明確的SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情我們可不可以來研擬這是應該要的謝謝委員提醒我想其實這次真是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況但是在這樣慘痛的事情之後我想只能求接下來希望能夠更避免這樣的事情發生那對於各項的原則都有但是應該要做到更精準的掌握跟落實的去執行"},{"start":202.538,"end":225.721,"text":"所以即便是在中央災害面中心成立在9月21号其实我们就已经通知说就弱势族群请优先赶快撤离但是确实是在这个不管是资讯的掌握上面名册也好或是怎么去疏散这块我想将来都还有在精进空间确保我想在人员的安全的保障这块其实是我们所有防灾最重要的事情"},{"start":226.081,"end":247.062,"text":"好這個真的要拜託次長因為我在這邊也不想真的再咒責誰也不想說這個是分中央還是地方的責任而是既然現在我們發現有事情如果可以做得更好或許可以挽救更多人的生命那我們就來做吧如果地方政府確實力有畏大或是他們他們的能力或許"},{"start":248.343,"end":267.045,"text":"不如我们地方中央来协助的话那我认为中央就应该要来协助所以我相信救人这件事情没有在分的所以真的拜托如果可以我们就把它定的更细致那如果地方政府他们没有发现这个是必须要改善的问题那我们就来协助吧谢谢委员"},{"start":267.165,"end":271.106,"text":"好這個要拜託那當然我也很感謝農業部啦因為其實我看到這個林保署的影片他們長途跋涉跟成大的團隊還有我們這個特遣隊到這個夜色湖的現場然後是這樣經過五天"},{"start":282.352,"end":304.444,"text":"然後甚至是涉嫌走這個受盡走一些舊林道然後走到現場去把這些現場的畫面記錄下來以及記錄現場最新的這個蓄水量都是他們在現場監測那我覺得這個是必須要給他們肯定也非常感謝他們謝謝我們農業部好謝謝那我們剩下一點時間我們拜託那個內政部劉部長請劉部長"},{"start":312.234,"end":329.224,"text":"委員好 在這邊我還是最後兩個問題三個問題請教一個還是這個村裡的廣播系統失靈的問題因為其實在高雄我相信部長也都知道我們高雄撤離是真的會愛家愛戶去拜託他們如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統"},{"start":329.764,"end":351.689,"text":"或者是廣播系統出狀況了他們是會派動所有的區長啊那邊的所長啊甚至所有的警力消防所有人都會到這個家裡把每一個人帶出來的那很顯然這一次花蓮月看到說有一個地方是沒有因為這個廣播系統失靈了那當然很感謝我們消防署長他們消防署第一時間也是趕快進行應變如果廣播不能用那其他的人必須要到現場"},{"start":358.291,"end":376.742,"text":"那我擔心的是有些人還是不知道到底怎麼辦所以我可不可以拜託這個村裡廣播系統如果你們除了手機一定會發細胞簡訊之外還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到你們的通知以及這個警報"},{"start":378.703,"end":398.773,"text":"現在我們的被變的方式就是把這樣子的一個艷色湖的部分變成是海嘯那海嘯的話在按照民防的話他就會有好像我們萬安演習聽到這樣的聲音可能大家都會知道但是比較重要的還是就是說在第一時間內要能夠確定在家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到或是看得到這樣的訊息"},{"start":399.913,"end":426.579,"text":"那我知道在以高雄市為例的話呢第一個就是民政系統的人或警政系統會挨家挨戶去敲門請他們離開如果他們不願意離開的話要請他們簽竊結書但是在這一次呢恐怕要再細查一下這個花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所他們在處理的時候是不是有這方面比較有這個沒有注意到的地方那這些呢未來我們會按照原來的會議記錄或是真正發生的情形提供給相關的檢調來參考"},{"start":428.78,"end":454.28,"text":"好 這個真的要拜託部長雖然這件事情非常的細節可是卻是最重要的一件事情因為人命保全是最重要的我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的聲音所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到這個通知的訊息這個真的要拜託每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查對 那我想就是還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離尤其是保全戶的部分通常我們在颱風要進來之前的前面24小時"},{"start":458.243,"end":480.24,"text":"那地方的民政單位就會通知包括這個鄉鎮公所或者鋰幹市趕快把這個行動不方便的這些人口趕快做異地撤離或者是說原地撤離都可以那這個部分呢其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面都有提到這方面的問題但是在溝通上面或是說在通知上面確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好"},{"start":480.74,"end":496.924,"text":"好謝謝那最後一件事情也是跟剛剛曹惠委員提到的一樣因為其實我自己去到現場當志工也有發現到說現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官他是有辦法來指揮志工的那大家問他沒錯這就是問題這就是問題就是我們知道說"},{"start":500.265,"end":527.923,"text":"政府部門沒有沒有責任或者說我們不能沒有資格去指揮志工因為大家都是自發性的可是當這些大型的災後現場大家真的有這麼多的民間的力量想要來協助的時候那到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以但因為大家目標都一樣就是災後的重建可以更快更有效率可是民眾到現場會變成說漫無目的那包括我到現場我是怎麼知道我要做什麼工作的呢"},{"start":528.483,"end":545.367,"text":"我是自己上手機查然後我們有一個自主的平台裡面會有民眾提報說我現在哪一戶哪一個住址我這邊還需要幾位志工或者這邊需要多少物資他們自己提供了那我們再一個一個去搜尋說這裡需要過去那我就走過去可能走了15分鐘到這個家戶我那一天是這樣那很顯然說我希望這個還是有一個"},{"start":555.989,"end":576.319,"text":"調整的空間就是說我們都已經是很明確現在是一個災後的現場一個很緊急的狀況了那是不是我們接下來可以善用這些名利或者是說更有效的去分配這一些自主的民眾力量讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災遇到什麼人禍只要是這種緊急的狀況大家都可以來進行有效的分工呢"},{"start":579.781,"end":608.328,"text":"報告委員我剛有跟蘇委員報告過我想要分成幾個階段第一個就是希望說在第一線從事這個搜索工作的盡量不要去那個地方因為那個是特授隊在處理的範圍然後第二個呢國軍救災或者像慈濟或者是芥菜種子會或是其他的這個宮廟團體他們都是非常多的人力投入一次是一千兩千所以這個部分呢他們包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央他們都知道說他們負責的區域在哪裡"},{"start":609.128,"end":626.335,"text":"那國軍也是國軍投入的部分我也跟委員報告國軍他們是半夜行動的因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間他們半夜去把這個路中間的這個整體的大量的土砂把它移植開那現在就是所謂的自己來的這個部分那自己來的部分確實比較難那我也知道有一些自發性的團體十個二十個對我們來講都是好但是一個來的部分確實很難知道說他要去哪裡要做什麼事"},{"start":637.239,"end":657.546,"text":"所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分包括跟衛福部一起來商量一下怎麼樣把這個志工的志願工作法跟災後防救把它結合在一起如果有人願意過來的話包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具譬如說鏟子跟雨鞋或者是怎麼樣防曬這個部分的因為還是很多人中暑或者這個是醫療救助站"},{"start":659.026,"end":672.671,"text":"分成專業的志工或者是說只是去那邊來協助半天或是這個部分他們可以去哪裡做比較好的一個基本上的分工讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨但是無論如何我們還是充滿了感激會覺得說這50萬人次的這個志工都是自發來的那這個部分的我們以後會有一些精進的方案但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助"},{"start":682.515,"end":706.889,"text":"第一個我知道這些志工朋友都很好他們沒有妨礙救災但是他們要去幫忙的部分的話還是能夠依照第一個要先救自己要先保護自己然後才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民的朋友然後協助清掃家園那這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的一個激勵的作用未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項"},{"start":707.449,"end":727.452,"text":"是啦我觉得这次真的是非常好的一个经验那最后还是要拜托部长我觉得这个大马村的王村长模式必须要建立这是我认为今天最重要的一件事情希望未来每一个社区都可以像王村长这样做到百分之百的撤离好我们会来努力好谢谢部长好谢谢王杰委员"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時12分）謝謝主席，我們先請農業部次長。"],["主席：請農業部次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：杜次長，早安。今天談到花蓮堰塞湖的事情真的非常難過，上週我也有去到現場，看到現場真的很震撼，也非常難過，我也是在那邊協助了一整天，也有一些事情我認為是接下來可以做得更好的。","首先要先請教次長的還是精準造冊及弱勢方案撤離的事情，其實可以看到這一次罹難的很多都是60歲以上的長輩，也有很多是行動不便或者是沒有辦法自主撤離的弱勢族群。我看到農業部這一次是依照堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離演練方案，應該是依照這個原則進行撤離的，但是可以看到花蓮縣政府很顯然對於這些弱勢族群，甚至可能所有的住戶都沒有精準造冊，導致第一時間沒有辦法讓所有人的名單掌握在手上，甚至到後來對於災民，包括如何領便當、如何聯繫、如何提供物資，還有安置的方案等等，都變成沒有辦法進行。所以，精準造冊真的非常重要，尤其是裡面到底有哪些是弱勢族群，應該要優先挑出來的。","就剛剛次長的報告，其實農業部在第一時間也有要求花蓮縣政府應該針對這些弱勢族群，甚至要提早進行撤離，這個其實我在高雄非常有感，因為我們在高雄做的，甚至是黃色警戒時就進行預防性撤離，而這個預防性撤離是知道這一戶家裡有人行動不便就派車去載，我們是做到這種程度。所以這一次讓我很難過的是，像這些弱勢族群到底如何在第一時間協助他們從家裡帶他們出來，這個非常非常的重要，甚至是他們可能第一時間沒有辦法收到細胞簡訊、第一時間不知道警報聲音，可能他聽不到，那這些人到底怎麼辦？","所以我在這邊建議，我看到你們的堰塞湖警戒監測及撤離演練方案，但是不是可以把它寫得更細？我指的寫得更細是說，像你們在土石流及大規模崩塌防災疏散避難作業規定裡面其實有寫到執行民眾疏散避難與收容，要協助弱勢族群疏散，其實是相對寫得比較細緻一點，所以我在這邊具體的建議，是不是堰塞湖的避難方案也把弱勢族群到底該如何疏散撤離的明確SOP告訴地方縣市政府這件事情可不可以來研擬？"],["杜次長文珍：這是應該要的，謝謝委員提醒。我想其實這次真的是沒人願意看到這樣的狀況，但是在如此慘痛的事情之後，我想接下來只希望能夠避免這樣的事情發生。對於相關的各項原則都有，但是應該要做到更精準地掌握跟落實執行，所以即便中央災害應變中心在9月21日成立後，我們就已經通知就弱勢族群請優先、趕快撤離，但是確實在不管資訊的掌握上面、名冊也好，或是怎麼去疏散這塊，我想將來都還有再精進的空間，確保人員的安全保障這塊，其實是所有防災中最重要的事情。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託次長，因為我在這邊也真的不想再究責誰，也不想說這個部分是中央還是地方的責任，既然現在有發現事情如果可以做得更好，或許可以挽救更多人的生命，那我們就來做吧！如果地方政府確實力有未逮或是能力也許不如中央來協助的話，那我認為中央就應該要來協助，我相信救人這件事情是沒有在區分的。"],["杜次長文珍：是啊！每位國民都非常重要，這部分我們應該要協助。"],["黃委員捷：對，所以真的拜託，如果可以，我們就把它訂得更細緻，如果地方政府沒有發現這個是必須要改善的問題，那我們就來協助吧！"],["杜次長文珍：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個部分要拜託。當然，我也很感謝農業部，因為我看到林保署的影片，他們跟成大的團隊長途跋涉，還有特遣隊到堰塞湖的現場，是這樣經過5天，甚至是涉險走獸徑、走一些舊林道，然後走到現場去，把現場的畫面記錄下來，以及紀錄最新的蓄水量，都是他們在現場監測，我覺得必須要給他們肯定，也非常感謝他們，謝謝農業部。"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。剩下一點時間，我們拜託內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。我最後有三個問題請教，一個是村里廣播系統失靈的問題。因為在高雄，我相信部長也都知道，高雄撤離是真的會挨家挨戶去拜託他們，如果他們沒有聽到廣播系統，或者是廣播系統出狀況了，會派動所有的區長、那邊的所長，甚至所有的警力、消防人員都會到這個家裡，把每一個人帶出來。很顯然地，這一次花蓮是因為有一個地方的廣播系統失靈了，那當然很感謝消防署長，消防署也是第一時間趕快進行應變，如果廣播不能用，其他的人必須要到現場。我擔心的是，有些人還是不知道到底要怎麼辦？所以，我可不可以拜託，除了村里廣播系統及手機一定會發細胞簡訊外，還有其他什麼方式是可以確保第一時間，讓住在這裡所有的住戶都會聽到通知及警報？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如我們剛剛所說的，現在的備變方式就是把這樣子的堰塞湖部分變成是海嘯，海嘯按照民防的話，就會有好像萬安演習聽到的聲音，大家可能都會知道，但是比較重要的還是在第一時間內，要能夠確定家戶裡面的人到底能不能聽得到，或是看得到這樣的訊息？"],["黃委員捷：是啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道以高雄市為例的話，第一個就是民政系統或警政系統的人會挨家挨戶去敲門，請他們離開，如果不願意離開的話，要請他們簽切結書。但是在這一次恐怕要再細查一下，花蓮縣政府或者是其他鄉鎮公所在處理的時候，是不是就這方面有比較沒注意到的地方，未來我們會按照原來的會議紀錄或是真正發生的情形，提供給相關的檢調來參考。"],["黃委員捷：這個部分真的要拜託部長，雖然這件事情是非常地細節，可是卻是最重要的一件事。"],["劉部長世芳：因為人命保全是最重要的。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：我們從來都不想漏掉任何一個必須要搶救的生命。"],["黃委員捷：所以要確保每一個住戶都有得到通知的訊息，這個真的要拜託，每一件事情都要做到最完整的調查。"],["劉部長世芳：對，還有我們一直強調要做預防性撤離，尤其是保全戶的部分，通常在颱風要進來的前24小時，地方的民政單位就會通知包括鄉鎮公所或者里幹事，把行動不方便的人口趕快做異地撤離，或者是原地撤離都可以，這個部分其實我們在通知的相關時間點上面，都有提到這方面的問題，但是在溝通上面，或是在通知上面，確實有些狀況沒有掌握得很好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。最後一件事情也是跟剛剛巧慧委員提到的一樣，因為其實我自己到現場當志工，也有發現現場並沒有辦法有一位指揮的調度官，是有辦法來指揮志工的，當然我也可以……"],["劉部長世芳：志工無法指揮，我想黃委員非常清楚。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是問題、這就是問題！我們知道政府部門沒有責任，或者說沒有資格去指揮志工，因為大家都是自發性的，可是針對這些大型的災後現場，真的有這麼多的民間力量想要來協助的時候，到底要怎麼樣讓這件事情是可以……因為大家目標都一樣，就是災後的重建可以更快、更有效率，可是民眾到現場會變成是漫無目的。","包括我到了現場，是怎麼知道要做什麼工作的呢？我是自己用手機查，有一個自主的平臺，裡面會有民眾提報現在哪一戶、哪一個住址，還需要幾位志工，或者需要多少物資。他們提供了訊息，我們再一個一個去搜尋知道這裡需要有人過去，我可能就走了15分鐘到這個家戶，我那一天是這樣的。很顯然地，我希望這個還是有一個調整的空間，就是現在都已經很明確是一個災後現場，一個很緊急的狀況，是不是接下來可以善用這些民力，或者是更有效地去分配這一些自主的民眾力量，讓他們在不管未來遇到什麼天災、遇到什麼人禍，只要是這種緊急的狀況，大家都可以進行有效的分工。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛有跟蘇委員報告過，我想要分成幾個階段，第一個就是希望在第一線從事搜索工作的部分，儘量不要去那個地方，因為那是特搜隊在處理的範圍。第二個國軍救災，或者像慈濟、芥菜種會或是其他的宮廟團體，他們都投入非常多的人力，一次是一千、兩千人，所以這個部分包括跟縣市政府或者是跟中央，他們都知道負責的區域在哪裡。關於國軍投入的部分，我也跟委員報告，國軍是半夜行動的，因為他們知道鏟子超人鏟出來的沙是放在路中間，他們半夜去把路中間整體的、大量的土沙把它移開。","現在就是所謂自己來的這個部分，自己來的部分確實比較難，我也知道有些自發性的團體10個、20個，對我們來講都是好的，但是一個人來的部分，確實很難知道他要去哪裡？要做什麼事？所以我們未來會好好的檢討這個部分，包括跟衛福部一起來商量，怎麼樣把志工的志願工作法跟災後防救結合在一起，如果有人願意過來的話，包括從資訊的取得以及救災器具，譬如鏟子跟雨鞋，或者是怎麼樣防曬的部分，因為還是很多人中暑。或是醫療救助站分成專業的志工，或只是去那邊協助半天的，他們可以去哪裡做會比較好的基本上分工，讓大家不會覺得很多的抱怨。但是無論如何，我們還是充滿了感激，因為這50萬人次的志工都是自發來的。"],["黃委員捷：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：這個部分，以後會有一些精進的方案，但是也必須要地方政府跟我們一起來協助。第一個，我知道這些志工朋友都很好，他們沒有妨礙救災，但是他們要去幫忙的話，第一個還是要能夠先救自己，自己不要……"],["黃委員捷：自我保護最重要。"],["劉部長世芳：對，要先保護自己，才能夠保護需要被保護的這些災民朋友，然後協助清掃家園，這個部分對我們來講是一個非常大的激勵作用，未來我們一定會把它變成是精進方案裡面的一項。"],["黃委員捷：是啦！我覺得這次真的是非常好的一個經驗，最後還是要拜託部長，大馬村的王村長模式必須要建立，這是我認為今天最重要的一件事情，希望未來每一個社區都可以像王村長這樣，做到百分之百的撤離。"],["劉部長世芳：好，我們會來努力，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}