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828.482, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 828.482, \"end\": 828.502, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,619 --> 00:00:12,294\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請部長好王媛好\n\n2\n00:00:13,015 --> 00:00:34,734\n部長好部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城\n\n3\n00:00:37,013 --> 00:00:49,128\n跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架\n\n4\n00:00:49,710 --> 00:01:05,686\n所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸\n\n5\n00:01:07,187 --> 00:01:29,635\n這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗\n\n6\n00:01:31,135 --> 00:01:50,529\n也很快就會發現這需要剪掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有\n\n7\n00:01:51,969 --> 00:02:15,046\n雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的\n\n8\n00:02:15,726 --> 00:02:31,073\n但是他用的他不能用在食品啊這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面有沒有\n\n9\n00:02:31,949 --> 00:02:53,146\n有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有\n\n10\n00:02:53,939 --> 00:03:13,661\n他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部\n\n11\n00:03:15,163 --> 00:03:31,312\n能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心\n\n12\n00:03:32,333 --> 00:03:51,446\n到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移\n\n13\n00:03:51,986 --> 00:04:19,964\n因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才\n\n14\n00:04:20,825 --> 00:04:46,980\n前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者\n\n15\n00:04:49,701 --> 00:05:15,569\n臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間\n\n16\n00:05:17,009 --> 00:05:44,119\n才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間\n\n17\n00:05:45,759 --> 00:06:08,439\n發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的\n\n18\n00:06:09,119 --> 00:06:37,495\n你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例\n\n19\n00:06:38,075 --> 00:06:58,925\n来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获\n\n20\n00:06:59,745 --> 00:07:25,727\n即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先\n\n21\n00:07:26,568 --> 00:07:54,547\n你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的\n\n22\n00:07:55,347 --> 00:08:15,496\n你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰\n\n23\n00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:34,099\n该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的\n\n24\n00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:49,840\n願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強\n\n25\n00:08:50,601 --> 00:09:12,228\n另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料辦成品成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做\n\n26\n00:09:13,427 --> 00:09:28,207\n就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验\n\n27\n00:09:29,246 --> 00:09:47,856\n你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個\n\n28\n00:09:50,537 --> 00:10:07,424\n針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個\n\n29\n00:10:09,245 --> 00:10:36,040\n稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法\n\n30\n00:10:36,400 --> 00:11:02,379\n好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題\n\n31\n00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,834\n你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整\n\n32\n00:11:10,493 --> 00:11:33,841\n因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題\n\n33\n00:11:38,283 --> 00:11:53,594\n这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药\n\n34\n00:11:54,495 --> 00:12:18,545\n但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解千優解都是這樣考量\n\n35\n00:12:18,905 --> 00:12:36,551\n他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得\n\n36\n00:12:37,551 --> 00:13:02,618\n每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有\n\n37\n00:13:03,038 --> 00:13:18,284\n那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成\n\n38\n00:13:18,404 --> 00:13:46,082\n因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好謝謝委員\n\n39\n00:13:48,101 --> 00:13:48,502\n謝謝王委員謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4619\t12294\t好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 請部長好 王媛好\n13015\t34734\t部長好 部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城\n37013\t49128\t跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架\n49710\t65686\t所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸\n67187\t89635\t這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗\n91135\t110529\t也很快就會發現這需要剪掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有\n111969\t135046\t雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的\n135726\t151073\t但是他用的 他不能用在食品啊 這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面 有沒有\n151949\t173146\t有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有\n173939\t193661\t他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部\n195163\t211312\t能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心\n212333\t231446\t到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移\n231986\t259964\t因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才\n260825\t286980\t前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者\n289701\t315569\t臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間\n317009\t344119\t才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間\n345759\t368439\t發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的\n369119\t397495\t你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例\n398075\t418925\t来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获\n419745\t445727\t即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先\n446568\t474547\t你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的\n475347\t495496\t你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰\n496556\t514099\t该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的\n514740\t529840\t願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強\n530601\t552228\t另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 辦成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做\n553427\t568207\t就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验\n569246\t587856\t你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個\n590537\t607424\t針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個\n609245\t636040\t稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法\n636400\t662379\t好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題\n663880\t668834\t你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整\n670493\t693841\t因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題\n698283\t713594\t这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药\n714495\t738545\t但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量\n738905\t756551\t他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得\n757551\t782618\t每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有\n783038\t798284\t那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成\n798404\t826082\t因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好 謝謝委員\n828101\t828502\t謝謝王委員 謝謝部長\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 請部長好 王媛好\n部長好 部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城\n跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架\n所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸\n這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗\n也很快就會發現這需要剪掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有\n雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的\n但是他用的 他不能用在食品啊 這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面 有沒有\n有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有\n他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部\n能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心\n到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移\n因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才\n前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者\n臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間\n才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間\n發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的\n你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例\n来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获\n即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先\n你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的\n你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰\n该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的\n願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強\n另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 辦成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做\n就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验\n你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個\n針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個\n稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法\n好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題\n你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整\n因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題\n这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药\n但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量\n他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得\n每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有\n那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成\n因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好 謝謝委員\n謝謝王委員 謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.619 --> 00:12.294\n好謝謝主席我們有請部長來請部長好王媛好\n\n00:13.015 --> 00:34.734\n部長好部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城\n\n00:37.013 --> 00:49.128\n跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架\n\n00:49.710 --> 01:05.686\n所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸\n\n01:07.187 --> 01:29.635\n這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗\n\n01:31.135 --> 01:50.529\n也很快就會發現這需要剪掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有\n\n01:51.969 --> 02:15.046\n雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的\n\n02:15.726 --> 02:31.073\n但是他用的他不能用在食品啊這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面有沒有\n\n02:31.949 --> 02:53.146\n有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有\n\n02:53.939 --> 03:13.661\n他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部\n\n03:15.163 --> 03:31.312\n能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心\n\n03:32.333 --> 03:51.446\n到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移\n\n03:51.986 --> 04:19.964\n因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才\n\n04:20.825 --> 04:46.980\n前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者\n\n04:49.701 --> 05:15.569\n臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間\n\n05:17.009 --> 05:44.119\n才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間\n\n05:45.759 --> 06:08.439\n發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的\n\n06:09.119 --> 06:37.495\n你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例\n\n06:38.075 --> 06:58.925\n来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获\n\n06:59.745 --> 07:25.727\n即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先\n\n07:26.568 --> 07:54.547\n你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的\n\n07:55.347 --> 08:15.496\n你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰\n\n08:16.556 --> 08:34.099\n该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的\n\n08:34.740 --> 08:49.840\n願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強\n\n08:50.601 --> 09:12.228\n另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料辦成品成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做\n\n09:13.427 --> 09:28.207\n就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验\n\n09:29.246 --> 09:47.856\n你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個\n\n09:50.537 --> 10:07.424\n針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個\n\n10:09.245 --> 10:36.040\n稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法\n\n10:36.400 --> 11:02.379\n好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題\n\n11:03.880 --> 11:08.834\n你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整\n\n11:10.493 --> 11:33.841\n因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題\n\n11:38.283 --> 11:53.594\n这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药\n\n11:54.495 --> 12:18.545\n但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解千優解都是這樣考量\n\n12:18.905 --> 12:36.551\n他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得\n\n12:37.551 --> 13:02.618\n每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有\n\n13:03.038 --> 13:18.284\n那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成\n\n13:18.404 --> 13:46.082\n因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好謝謝委員\n\n13:48.101 --> 13:48.502\n謝謝王委員謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.619,"end":12.294,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長來 請部長好 王媛好"},{"start":13.015,"end":34.734,"text":"部長好 部長這個黑心大腸的案件事實上讓民眾非常的恐慌因為它涉及到我們的國民小吃大腸麵線連知名達州麵線通通都中標而且它的量坦白講是蠻大的所以剛剛提到了如果6月你們就接到檢舉你們什麼時候才下架封城"},{"start":37.013,"end":49.128,"text":"跟委員報告當然這個事件上的處理的速度應該要更快啦那我們在這個封存是從10月3號開始進行這個封存跟下架"},{"start":49.71,"end":65.686,"text":"所以你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎如果六月檢舉十月才下架封存整整四個月的時間有多少無辜的台灣老百姓吃下了這個泡有工業用的漂白水的大腸"},{"start":67.187,"end":89.635,"text":"這個涉及到國人食安第一個我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架封存的動作按照處理食安的標準跟原則如果6月份這個檢舉這麼的確切而且有直指工業用的漂白水的話從食藥署你們到現場直接就把大腸拿出來檢驗"},{"start":91.135,"end":110.529,"text":"也很快就會發現這需要剪掉嗎你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出他是不是含有工業級的漂白水不是嗎其實我們當場去搜索的時候去驗的時候就驗過了所以其實是沒有"},{"start":111.969,"end":135.046,"text":"雙氧水的殘留6月份沒有驗到不是6月份我們後來去搜索10月1號的時候10月1號也沒有驗到沒有驗到但是它的標示裡面直接寫是所謂的工業用的雙氧水這就明顯違反了食安法裡面的食用級的雙氧水雙氧水在食用級裡面在我們的食品添加物叫做殺菌劑它是可用的"},{"start":135.726,"end":151.073,"text":"但是他用的 他不能用在食品啊 這個署長我們要聽這部分的解釋第一個我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函他有沒有直指他是使用工業用的漂白水然後添加在這個大廠裡面 有沒有"},{"start":151.949,"end":173.146,"text":"有或沒有他當初提供的證據裡面我們他的確有提到說是工業用但是呢我們初步去評估也有屏東的衛生局去了解案情的時候衛生單位其實查並沒有查獲相關的違規所以他有去查嗎對他第一時間有進場去查所以並沒有"},{"start":173.939,"end":193.661,"text":"他有沒有進場查第一時間在地的衛生局跟你南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗這跟委員報告因為我們一開始六月份知道之後針對這件事情我們評估起來是重大的所以我們跟保氣總隊就協作同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部"},{"start":195.163,"end":211.312,"text":"能夠做聯合的所以一開始是沒有成案的即使在保七等等的評估考量在六月底的時候他說是事證不足但是在這個情形之下我們持續跟保七溝通之後確定因為陳情仁非常非常的擔心"},{"start":212.333,"end":231.446,"text":"到最後希望我們給他完全的保護後來是檢查機構確確願意保護證人所以才在7月3號成案7月3號成案的時候呢其實我們本來就定在7月14號要去做行政稽查可是因為已經成案的時候才會有時間上面的一個推移"},{"start":231.986,"end":259.964,"text":"因为我只能讲一件事情如果今天面对这种非常严密的犯罪组织高度的监视系统风吹草动下我相信行政稽查下去的力度对于这次能够破获我觉得我自己也很担心有这样子的严密的整个的过程当中只有最后去现场的只有是食药署为什么只有食药署南区去因为被选择是相信的就像刚才"},{"start":260.825,"end":286.98,"text":"前院委員說踢到的擔心是不是會有內部的內鬼會有內神通外國會不會通風暴行會不會有這些情形所以嚴格嚴密的保持支架才能把它揭露那您問我說為什麼這個案子會讓它因為食品級 工業級跟藥品級的雙氧水都是雙氧水 純度不同但是裡面的風險增加這增加呢我們覺得是絕對不允許的但是這個業者"},{"start":289.701,"end":315.569,"text":"臨知故犯做了這件事情我們不允許但他可能潛在的風險我相信我們不願意他存在但是他對於查到這樣子黑心的業者神之語法更重於其他的一切所以我有這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的一個裁量你剛剛的這樣的說法但是你為求證據的保全你相信保七總隊你前前後後浪費了四個月的時間"},{"start":317.009,"end":344.119,"text":"才把這件事情你覺得證據充足了然後把這個業者逮到但是你沒有想過你的食安的風險你讓全國的民眾在這四個月的空窗期多吃下了多少工業級的雙氧水所漂白出來的大廠你這樣子的得失之間你真的認為你們這件事情這樣是做對了嗎沒有更好的辦法嗎事實上在食安法裡面最重要的精神是你第一時間"},{"start":345.759,"end":368.439,"text":"發現有問題的產品你可以預防性的下架你可以採取封存這個是在食安法裡面最高的精神為什麼食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品在過去處理很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的"},{"start":369.119,"end":397.495,"text":"你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候你要封存啊 你要下架你不是說我讓檢調查 查到這個業者跑不掉的時候然後四個月過去了這樣是有問題啦 部長你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題部長有特別提醒我們我們對這個部分的行政檢討我積極會去做一些修正部長你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題這整個的處理的過程確實有瑕疵所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例"},{"start":398.075,"end":418.925,"text":"来做检讨让从检举到后面整个的作业要重新调整他的SOP不要因为移送检调之后那么反而呢让我们的行政作为呢那么延缓下来那以国人的健康为首要要务那么要不要破获"},{"start":419.745,"end":445.727,"text":"即使因為我們介入之後而沒有辦法讓檢調收集到足夠的證據而沒有辦法繩之以法但是我們至少保障了國人的安全這個才是最重要我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來你是衛福部我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安而不是有利檢調去偵辦這兩者如果必須取捨的時候當然是食安第一優先"},{"start":446.568,"end":474.547,"text":"你就是要採取預防性的封存跟下架就是阻止國人去吃到這個有問題的食品嘛我覺得這個整個你們真的要回去好好徹底的檢討那除了這件事情之外呢就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有利有未待的地方看看你們現在這個整個的食品業者你們的輔導改善跟罰款的比例事實上是偏低的"},{"start":475.347,"end":495.496,"text":"你們當然是覺得很善意先輔導 先起改善不行的時候再來罰款但是你對於有一些像這一次的黑心大廠它根本就是蓄意添加你對於這種惡意的食品業者我認為你們的這個手法上面不能只是一再一再的讓它改善而不敢開罰"},{"start":496.556,"end":514.099,"text":"该怎么罚就要怎么罚你们现在的罚款的比例只有0.43%真的是偏低我们整个食品业我们就是不能让劣币进来发现劣币就是驱逐我们要确保我们的食安就是这样我们奖励优良的"},{"start":514.74,"end":529.84,"text":"願意做到位的這些優良廠商我們鼓勵大家來消費來購買但是這當中如果有這種劣幣就是想要用劣質的產品來獲取個人的利益我們不允許這樣的廠商存在所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強"},{"start":530.601,"end":552.228,"text":"另外一個我要講監察院的調查報告他現在就提到了就是食品業者自主管理的機制 坦白講有漏洞現在你們的食安法第七條裡面是讓業者他在原料 辦成品 成品檢驗的項目都是業者自行評估安全風險但是坦白講你們根本不知道他有沒有做"},{"start":553.427,"end":568.207,"text":"就是第七条当时就是一个希望业者可以自律的条款但是食安法已经通过这么多年了我要问的是如果他是不良业者他从来没有针对他的原料搬成品成品在做检验"},{"start":569.246,"end":587.856,"text":"你市交署會知道嗎你衛福部知道嗎坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做連他有沒有在做你都不知道因為他現在也不用送案被查然後他也不用登錄管理所以你通通都不知道所以這一塊是監察院已經提出調查報告了認為你們現在的這個"},{"start":590.537,"end":607.424,"text":"針對業者自主管理機制第7條的部分這是存在漏洞的這個部分部長你們要去調整嗎跟委員報告關於這個黑心業者我們一定是嚴懲不待所以剛剛這個委員只叫我完全認同所以對於這個"},{"start":609.245,"end":636.04,"text":"稽查會強化那如果是惡意的黑心的那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分我們一定就是按照他的這個影響的層面那麼給予重罰所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法那麼讓這個業者呢不敢有僥倖的心態啦那監察院調查報告的部分我們會來全面的檢討那麼該修法我們就修法"},{"start":636.4,"end":662.379,"text":"好我希望這個部分是漏洞你們應該要研議最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題這個是國人很關切的當然現在我們看到部長你很快的提出說這個要提前通報統一控貨還有彈性藥價這三大措施但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了這一次有47項的藥品他要退出台灣市場你們說不是藥價的問題"},{"start":663.88,"end":668.834,"text":"你們說是因應全球公益情形做出的調整"},{"start":670.493,"end":693.841,"text":"因應全球什麼調整是嫌台灣市場太小還是覺得其他地方更有需求所以先挪給其他地方我聽不懂這句話的意思跟委員報告這一個這是我們對於說藥商如果他這個藥要停止供應他就要事先通報所以他並不是代表缺藥是說他未來在半年內可能就停止供貨然後這47個藥不是因為藥價的問題"},{"start":698.283,"end":713.594,"text":"这47个药里面我们有特别去问每个药厂说那有没有要来提这个成本夫妇要调整那因为这里面有24个药是真正所谓叫做原厂药"},{"start":714.495,"end":738.545,"text":"但是他在原廠藥都是過了專利期所以他都有其他的學名藥所以他考量到這個是全球的區域都是這樣這個藥廠在他專利期內他是獨大所以他藥價都很高等到過了專利期之後因為學名藥要進來隨著學名藥越多市場價格就會下降他最後就會轉移他的生產線所以像這個百優解 千優解都是這樣考量"},{"start":738.905,"end":756.551,"text":"他是不再製造了他就因為學名藥太多了他不去處理這個市場他轉移到他其他的新藥或專利藥的市場去所以大概是有些是產線的調整所造成那在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得"},{"start":757.551,"end":782.618,"text":"每一個國家他這個廠的那個國家成本是不一樣的所以他會轉移所以原廠這邊可能不做比如說我們現在這個有一個這47個裡面的只有一個藥我們認為說這個非藥不可的就是那個Cyclosporine的針劑因為那個手術的時候還沒有辦法吃Cyclosporine有口服藥可是要用打的時候手術的時候要用打的所以那個一定要有"},{"start":783.038,"end":798.284,"text":"那那个是瑞士的药厂他停产但是我们就找到那个日本的一个药厂他就是学名药所以未来就会以这个来做取代所以这个只要能够提早通报那大概我们都可以处理得来不会造成"},{"start":798.404,"end":826.082,"text":"因為這個關乎到是國人的用藥的問題有些人在替換藥品的過程當中他可能還要適應一段期間所以我希望這個部分你所講的提前通報統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到未來不會有這一種藥品突然就缺藥然後導致民眾權益受損的問題這個我希望這個部長你過去也是這方面的專家你要好好的去把它做好的調控好不好好 謝謝委員"},{"start":828.101,"end":828.502,"text":"謝謝王委員 謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時16分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["石部長崇良：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，黑心大腸的案件，事實上讓民眾非常地恐慌，因為它涉及到國民小吃──大腸麵線，連知名的阿宗麵線通通都中標，而且它的量坦白講是滿大的，所以剛剛提到了，如果6月就接到檢舉，你們什麼時候才下架、封存？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當然這個事件上的處理速度應該要更快啦！"],["王委員育敏：你們幾月下架、封存，你告訴我時間點？"],["石部長崇良：我們是從10月3號開始進行封存跟下架。"],["王委員育敏：你知道這樣子有多嚴重嗎？如果6月檢舉，10月才下架、封存，整整四個月的時間，有多少無辜的臺灣老百姓吃下了泡有工業用漂白水的大腸？這個涉及到國人食安。第一個，我要問的是為什麼第一時間你沒有採取下架、封存的動作？按照處理食安的標準跟原則，如果6月份檢舉這麼的確切，而且有直指工業用的漂白水，食藥署直接到現場把大腸拿出來檢驗也很快就會發現，這需要檢調嗎？你們的行政權立刻就可以驗出它是不是含有工業級的漂白水，不是嗎？為什麼沒有做？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，其實我們當場去搜索、去驗的時候就驗過了，沒有雙氧水的殘留，但是……"],["王委員育敏：6月份沒有驗到？"],["姜署長至剛：不是6月份，我們後來10月1號去搜索的時候。"],["王委員育敏：10月1號也沒有驗到？"],["姜署長至剛：沒有驗到，但是它的標示裡面直接寫明工業用的雙氧水，這就明顯違反食安法裡面的食用級雙氧水。雙氧水在食用級裡面、在我們的食品添加物叫作殺菌劑，它是可用的，但是它用的……"],["王委員育敏：我知道，它不能用在食品。署長，我們要聽這部分的解釋。第一個，我要問的就是6月份的檢舉信函，他有沒有直指是使用工業用的漂白水，然後添加在大腸裡面，有沒有？有或沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：他當初提供的證據裡面，的確有提到是工業用的，但是我們初步去評估，屏東衛生局也有去了解案情的時候，衛生單位其實並沒有查獲相關的違規，所以……"],["王委員育敏：他有去查嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：對！"],["王委員育敏：第一時間他有進場去查？"],["姜署長至剛：並沒有。"],["王委員育敏：他有沒有進場查？第一時間，在地的衛生局跟南部的食藥署有沒有進場去查驗？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，因為我們一開始6月份知道之後，針對這件事情，我們評估起來是重大的，所以我們跟保七總隊協作，同時通知了我們的衛生局跟農業部能夠做聯合的，所以一開始是沒有成案的，即使在保七等等的評估，考量在6月底的時候，他說是事證不足，但是在這個情形之下，我們持續與保七溝通之後確定，也因為陳情人非常非常的擔心，他希望我們給他完全的保護，後來檢察機構確切願意保護證人，所以才在7月3號成案。7月3號成案的時候，其實我們本來就訂在7月14號要做行政稽查，可是因為已經成案才會有時間上面的推移，而我只能講一件事情，如果今天面對這種非常嚴密的犯罪組織，高度的監視系統，風吹草動下，我相信行政稽查下去的力度對於這次能夠破獲，我覺得我自己也很擔心，有這樣子嚴密的……整個過程當中，最後去現場的只有食藥署，所以為什麼只有食藥署南區去？因為被選擇是相信的，就像剛才前面委員所提到的，擔心是不是有內部的內鬼，會不會有內神通外鬼？會不會通風報信？會不會有這些情形？所以嚴格嚴密的保持之下才能把他揭露。那你問我說為什麼這個案子會讓他……因為食品級、工業級與藥品級的雙氧水，都是雙氧水，但純度不同，風險也增加，這種增加我們是絕不允許的，可是這個業者明知故犯做了這件事情，我們不允許，但是它可能潛在的風險，我相信我們不願意它存在，但是對於查到這樣子的黑心業者，將其繩之以法更重於其他的一切，所以在這樣子的考量之下做了這樣子的裁量。"],["王委員育敏：署長，你剛剛這樣的說法，你為求證據的保全，你相信保七總隊，你前前後後浪費了4個月的時間才把這件事情……你覺得證據充足了，然後把這個業者逮到，但是你沒有想過你的食安風險，你讓全國民眾在這4個月的空窗期吃下了多少工業級雙氧水所漂白出來的大腸，這樣的得失之間，你真的認為你們這一件事情這樣是做對了嗎？沒有更好的辦法嗎？事實上，在食安法裡面最重要的精神是，第一時間發現有問題的產品，你可以預防性的下架，可以採取封存，這個是在食安法裡面的最高精神，為什麼？食安法要保障的不是你有沒有破案的問題，而是民眾要在第一時間不會吃下有問題的食品，在過去很多的食安案件都是這樣處理的，你發現已經被檢舉有問題的時候，你要封存、你要下架，不是讓檢調查，查到這個業者跑不掉的時候，然後4個月過去了，這樣是有問題的，部長，你認為這樣的SOP有沒有問題？"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝委員，這件事情其實部長有特別提醒我們，我們對這個部分的行政檢討會積極去做一些修正，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：來，我要求部長回答，部長，你認為這樣的處理有沒有問題？"],["石部長崇良：這整個處理過程確實有瑕疵，所以我已經要求要重新以這個案例來做檢討，從檢舉到後面整個作業要重新調整它的SOP，不要因為移送檢調之後，反而讓我們的行政作為延緩下來，以國人健康為首要要務。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["石部長崇良：那麼要不要破獲？即使因為我們介入之後，沒有辦法讓檢調蒐集到足夠的證據，而沒有辦法繩之以法，但是我們至少保障了國人的安全，這個才是最重要的。"],["王委員育敏：沒錯，我覺得你的優先順序一定要調整回來，你是衛福部，我們的食安法就是保障國人的食安，而不是有利檢調去偵辦，這兩者如果必須取捨的時候，當然是食安第一優先。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：你就是要採取預防性的封存及下架，就是阻止國人吃到這個有問題的食品，我覺得這整個你們真的要回去好好澈底的檢討。","除了這件事情之外，就是你們現在針對這些食品業者的管理是不是還有力有未逮的地方？看看現在針對整個食品業者，你們的輔導改善與罰款的比例事實上是偏低的，你們當然是覺得很善意，先輔導限期改善，不行的時候再來罰款，但是對於有一些像這一次黑心大腸他根本就是蓄意添加，對於這種惡意的食品業者，我認為你們的手法上面不能只是一再、一再的讓他改善而不敢開罰，該怎麼罰就要怎麼罰，你們現在的罰款比例只有0.43%，真的是偏低，整個食品業就是不能讓劣幣進來，發現劣幣就是驅逐，要確保我們的食安就是這樣，我們獎勵優良的、願意做到位的這些優良廠商，我們鼓勵大家來消費、來購買，但是這當中如果有這種劣幣，就是想要用劣質產品來獲取個人利益，我們不允許這樣的廠商存在，所以你們應該在執法的力度上面還要更強。","另外一個，我要講監察院的調查報告，他現在就提到了食品業者的自主管理機制坦白講有漏洞，現在你們的食安法第七條是業者在原料、半成品、成品的檢驗項目都是讓業者自行評估安全風險，但是坦白講，你們根本不知道他有沒有做，第七條當時就是一個希望業者可以自律的條款，但是食安法已經通過這麼多年了，我要問的是，如果他是不良業者，他從來沒有針對他的原料、半成品、成品做檢驗，食藥署會知道嗎？衛福部知道嗎？坦白講都不知道他有沒有在做，連他有沒有在做你都不知道，因為他現在也不用送案備查，然後也不用登錄管理，因此你通通都不知道。所以這一塊監察院已經提出調查報告，認為你們現在針對業者自主管理機制的第七條是存在漏洞的，部長，你們要去調整嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，關於黑心業者，我們一定是嚴懲不貸，剛剛委員的指教我完全認同，所以對於稽查會強化，如果是惡意的、黑心的，那個沒有什麼限期改善之後再處分，我們一定就是按照他的影響層面給予重罰，所以這個我們一定會調整過去的做法，讓業者不敢有僥倖的心態。"],["王委員育敏：那監察院調查報告的部分？"],["石部長崇良：至於監察院報告的部分，我們會來全面檢討，該修法我們就修法。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個部分是漏洞，我希望你們應該要研議。","最後我問你一個就是藥品的問題，這個也是國人很關切的，當然現在我們看到部長很快地提出說要提前通報、統一控貨，還有彈性藥價這三大措施，但是你們在回應的時候其實也提到了，這次有47項藥品要退出臺灣市場，你們說不是藥價的問題，你們說是因應全球供應情形做出的調整，因應全球什麼調整？是嫌臺灣市場太小，還是覺得其他地方更有需求，所以先挪給其他地方？我聽不懂這句話的意思。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，就是我們對於說藥商如果它這個藥要停止供應就要事先通報，所以並不是代表缺藥，是說它未來在半年內可能停止供貨。"],["王委員育敏：不是，你們對外的新聞稿說……"],["石部長崇良：然後這47個藥，我們特別有去……"],["王委員育敏：你說不是因為藥價的問題，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對、對、對，這47……"],["王委員育敏：是因為全球供貨的問題？"],["石部長崇良：47個藥裡面我們有特別去問每個藥廠有沒有要提成本不敷、要調整，因為這裡面有24個藥是真正所謂原廠藥，但是原廠藥都是過了專利期，所以它都有其他的學名藥，所以考量到全球的區域都是這樣，這個藥廠在其專利期內是獨大，所以藥價都很高，等到過了專利期之後，因為學名藥就要進來，隨著學名藥越多，市場價格就會下降，它最後就會轉移生產線，所以像百憂解、千憂解都是這樣考量，他們不再製造了，因為學名藥太多了，他們不去處理這塊市場，轉移到其他新藥或專利藥的市場去，所以大概有些是產線的調整所造成，在這裡面當然也有可能是一些原料的取得，因為這個廠所在的國家其成本是不一樣的，所以他們會轉移，所以原廠這邊可能不做，比如說，我們現在這47個裡面只有一個藥是我們認為非要不可的，就是Cyclosporin的針劑，因為手術的時候沒有辦法吃Cyclosporin的口服藥，可是要用打的時候，手術的時候要用打的，所以那個一定要有，那個是瑞士的藥廠停產，但是我們就找到日本的藥廠，它就是學名藥，所以未來就會以這個來取代，因此只要能夠提早通報，大概我們都可以處理得來，不會造成缺藥。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為這個關乎國人用藥的問題，有些人在替換藥品的過程當中，他可能還要適應一段期間，所以我希望這一個部分，你所講的提前通報、統一控貨跟彈性藥價這三個措施真的能做到，未來不會有藥品突然缺藥導致民眾權益受損的問題。部長過去是這方面的專家，我希望……"],["石部長崇良：是，我們會來落實。"],["王委員育敏：你要好好的把它做好調控，好不好？謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員、謝謝部長。委員會在這邊宣告，等一下邱委員鎮軍詢答結束後休息10分鐘。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}