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\"報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 234.597, \"end\": 234.737, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 234.737, \"end\": 235.578, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 235.578, \"end\": 235.698, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 235.698, \"end\": 235.818, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 235.818, \"end\": 236.078, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 236.078, \"end\": 237.018, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 237.018, \"end\": 237.298, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 237.298, \"end\": 237.418, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"特\", \"start\": 237.418, \"end\": 237.539, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": 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\"這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"由\", \"start\": 466.077, \"end\": 466.197, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 466.197, \"end\": 467.859, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"稍\", \"start\": 467.859, \"end\": 467.979, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"微\", \"start\": 467.979, \"end\": 468.119, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 468.119, \"end\": 468.279, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 468.279, \"end\": 468.459, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 468.459, \"end\": 468.539, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 468.539, \"end\": 469.08, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 469.08, \"end\": 469.44, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 469.44, \"end\": 469.92, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 469.92, \"end\": 470.661, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 470.661, \"end\": 470.821, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 470.821, \"end\": 470.961, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 470.961, \"end\": 471.381, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 471.381, \"end\": 471.642, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 471.642, \"end\": 471.882, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 471.882, \"end\": 472.002, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 472.002, \"end\": 472.022, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 472.022, \"end\": 472.242, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 472.242, \"end\": 472.783, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 472.783, \"end\": 473.383, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 473.383, \"end\": 473.543, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"以\", 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\"end\": 489.576, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 489.576, \"end\": 490.357, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"跨\", \"start\": 490.357, \"end\": 490.677, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 490.677, \"end\": 491.097, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 491.097, \"end\": 491.538, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 491.538, \"end\": 492.218, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 492.218, \"end\": 492.298, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 492.298, \"end\": 492.518, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 492.518, \"end\": 492.739, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 492.739, \"end\": 493.059, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"雲\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 493.059, \"end\": 493.399, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 493.399, \"end\": 493.559, \"score\": 0.985}, 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0.871}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 520.976, \"end\": 520.996, \"score\": 0.966}]}, {\"start\": 521.576, \"end\": 548.414, \"text\": \"那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 521.576, \"end\": 522.217, \"score\": 0.965}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 522.217, \"end\": 522.337, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 522.337, \"end\": 522.777, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"H\", \"start\": 522.777, \"end\": 523.237, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"O\", \"start\": 523.237, \"end\": 523.718, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 523.718, \"end\": 523.838, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 523.838, \"end\": 524.018, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 524.018, \"end\": 524.298, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 524.298, \"end\": 524.538, 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\"我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 549.375, \"end\": 550.396, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 550.396, \"end\": 550.636, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 550.636, \"end\": 550.876, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 550.876, \"end\": 551.116, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 551.116, \"end\": 551.377, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 551.377, \"end\": 551.597, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 551.597, \"end\": 551.857, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 551.857, \"end\": 553.358, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"添\", \"start\": 553.358, \"end\": 553.598, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 553.598, \"end\": 553.898, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 553.898, 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\"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 565.007, \"end\": 565.407, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 565.407, \"end\": 565.627, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 565.627, \"end\": 565.807, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 565.807, \"end\": 566.108, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 566.108, \"end\": 566.668, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 566.668, \"end\": 566.928, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 566.928, \"end\": 567.308, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 567.308, \"end\": 567.469, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 567.469, \"end\": 567.949, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 567.949, \"end\": 568.489, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 568.489, \"end\": 568.729, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 568.729, \"end\": 568.93, \"score\": 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00:00:13,141\n好謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇江署長請副長來江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好謝謝這第一名要招委對不對\n\n2\n00:00:30,583 --> 00:00:53,262\n部長署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先\n\n3\n00:00:56,084 --> 00:01:18,821\n再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分\n\n4\n00:01:19,341 --> 00:01:33,978\n那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些\n\n5\n00:01:34,518 --> 00:01:52,706\n市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下\n\n6\n00:01:54,166 --> 00:02:10,104\n原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠\n\n7\n00:02:10,925 --> 00:02:27,013\n提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法\n\n8\n00:02:27,284 --> 00:02:48,767\n對所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範\n\n9\n00:02:49,988 --> 00:03:13,678\n它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路\n\n10\n00:03:14,698 --> 00:03:31,929\n可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸\n\n11\n00:03:36,011 --> 00:03:54,277\n這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式\n\n12\n00:03:54,597 --> 00:04:18,149\n報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告\n\n13\n00:04:18,809 --> 00:04:46,815\n各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易\n\n14\n00:04:47,935 --> 00:05:14,564\n但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整\n\n15\n00:05:15,284 --> 00:05:30,291\n再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用\n\n16\n00:05:30,911 --> 00:05:49,194\n剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK好這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理\n\n17\n00:05:49,855 --> 00:06:14,933\n那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些\n\n18\n00:06:15,673 --> 00:06:33,051\n好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度\n\n19\n00:06:33,832 --> 00:06:49,529\n意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式\n\n20\n00:06:50,129 --> 00:07:12,950\n就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查\n\n21\n00:07:13,590 --> 00:07:29,728\n那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示\n\n22\n00:07:30,689 --> 00:07:42,204\n另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何\n\n23\n00:07:46,077 --> 00:08:13,900\n這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質\n\n24\n00:08:14,881 --> 00:08:40,996\n那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的\n\n25\n00:08:41,576 --> 00:09:08,414\n那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是\n\n26\n00:09:09,375 --> 00:09:32,933\n我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品\n\n27\n00:09:33,533 --> 00:09:54,722\n那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任\n\n28\n00:09:55,843 --> 00:10:13,439\n再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人\n\n29\n00:10:14,019 --> 00:10:34,718\n那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈\n\n30\n00:10:35,419 --> 00:10:46,519\n重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QRCode的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等\n\n31\n00:10:47,239 --> 00:11:07,254\n那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障\n\n32\n00:11:07,774 --> 00:11:28,377\n所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要\n\n33\n00:11:28,937 --> 00:11:54,659\n因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界\n\n34\n00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:22,345\n食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是ScienceinAction就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障\n\n35\n00:12:22,925 --> 00:12:41,554\n那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分\n\n36\n00:12:42,294 --> 00:13:04,126\n我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給\n\n37\n00:13:05,985 --> 00:13:16,061\n環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會\n\n38\n00:13:21,548 --> 00:13:41,058\n去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的\n\n39\n00:13:42,774 --> 00:13:56,860\n欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好謝謝\n\n40\n00:13:57,748 --> 00:14:23,595\n所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用ScienceinAction就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好\n\n41\n00:14:24,595 --> 00:14:52,495\n當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證\n\n42\n00:14:53,476 --> 00:15:13,056\n最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好大家來一起努力謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王議員謝謝部長主任請回\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2711\t13141\t好 謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇 江署長請副長來 江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝這第一名要招委對不對\n30583\t53262\t部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先\n56084\t78821\t再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分\n79341\t93978\t那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些\n94518\t112706\t市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下\n114166\t130104\t原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠\n130925\t147013\t提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法\n147284\t168767\t對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範\n169988\t193678\t它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路\n194698\t211929\t可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸\n216011\t234277\t這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式\n234597\t258149\t報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告\n258809\t286815\t各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易\n287935\t314564\t但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整\n315284\t330291\t再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用\n330911\t349194\t剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK 好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理\n349855\t374933\t那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些\n375673\t393051\t好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度\n393832\t409529\t意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式\n410129\t432950\t就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查\n433590\t449728\t那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示\n450689\t462204\t另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何\n466077\t493900\t這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質\n494881\t520996\t那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的\n521576\t548414\t那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是\n549375\t572933\t我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品\n573533\t594722\t那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好 這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任\n595843\t613439\t再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人\n614019\t634718\t那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈\n635419\t646519\t重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等\n647239\t667254\t那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障\n667774\t688377\t所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要\n688937\t714659\t因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界\n716559\t742345\t食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障\n742925\t761554\t那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分\n762294\t784126\t我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給\n785985\t796061\t環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會\n801548\t821058\t去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的\n822774\t836860\t欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝\n837748\t863595\t所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好\n864595\t892495\t當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證\n893476\t913056\t最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王議員 謝謝部長 主任 請回\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇 江署長請副長來 江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝這第一名要招委對不對\n部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先\n再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分\n那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些\n市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下\n原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠\n提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法\n對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範\n它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路\n可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸\n這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式\n報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告\n各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易\n但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整\n再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用\n剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK 好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理\n那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些\n好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度\n意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式\n就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查\n那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示\n另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何\n這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質\n那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的\n那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是\n我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品\n那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好 這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任\n再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人\n那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈\n重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等\n那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障\n所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要\n因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界\n食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障\n那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分\n我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給\n環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會\n去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的\n欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝\n所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好\n當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證\n最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王議員 謝謝部長 主任 請回\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.711 --> 00:13.141\n好謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇江署長請副長來江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好謝謝這第一名要招委對不對\n\n00:30.583 --> 00:53.262\n部長署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先\n\n00:56.084 --> 01:18.821\n再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分\n\n01:19.341 --> 01:33.978\n那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些\n\n01:34.518 --> 01:52.706\n市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下\n\n01:54.166 --> 02:10.104\n原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠\n\n02:10.925 --> 02:27.013\n提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法\n\n02:27.284 --> 02:48.767\n對所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範\n\n02:49.988 --> 03:13.678\n它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路\n\n03:14.698 --> 03:31.929\n可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸\n\n03:36.011 --> 03:54.277\n這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式\n\n03:54.597 --> 04:18.149\n報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告\n\n04:18.809 --> 04:46.815\n各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易\n\n04:47.935 --> 05:14.564\n但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整\n\n05:15.284 --> 05:30.291\n再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用\n\n05:30.911 --> 05:49.194\n剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK好這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理\n\n05:49.855 --> 06:14.933\n那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些\n\n06:15.673 --> 06:33.051\n好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度\n\n06:33.832 --> 06:49.529\n意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式\n\n06:50.129 --> 07:12.950\n就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查\n\n07:13.590 --> 07:29.728\n那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示\n\n07:30.689 --> 07:42.204\n另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何\n\n07:46.077 --> 08:13.900\n這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質\n\n08:14.881 --> 08:40.996\n那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的\n\n08:41.576 --> 09:08.414\n那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是\n\n09:09.375 --> 09:32.933\n我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品\n\n09:33.533 --> 09:54.722\n那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任\n\n09:55.843 --> 10:13.439\n再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人\n\n10:14.019 --> 10:34.718\n那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈\n\n10:35.419 --> 10:46.519\n重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QRCode的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等\n\n10:47.239 --> 11:07.254\n那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障\n\n11:07.774 --> 11:28.377\n所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要\n\n11:28.937 --> 11:54.659\n因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界\n\n11:56.559 --> 12:22.345\n食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是ScienceinAction就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障\n\n12:22.925 --> 12:41.554\n那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分\n\n12:42.294 --> 13:04.126\n我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給\n\n13:05.985 --> 13:16.061\n環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會\n\n13:21.548 --> 13:41.058\n去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的\n\n13:42.774 --> 13:56.860\n欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好謝謝\n\n13:57.748 --> 14:23.595\n所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用ScienceinAction就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好\n\n14:24.595 --> 14:52.495\n當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證\n\n14:53.476 --> 15:13.056\n最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好大家來一起努力謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝王議員謝謝部長主任請回\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.711,"end":13.141,"text":"好 謝謝主席麻煩石副長跟石耀蘇 江署長請副長來 江署長從新報告王委員選導結束之後我們就來處理臨時提案好 謝謝這第一名要招委對不對"},{"start":30.583,"end":53.262,"text":"部長 署長好委員好我想今天這個主題很多委員已經給部裡相關的一些意見非常的多元而且要求也其實期待也很高我們希望針對食安的部分不要再讓國人他日常的生活食衣住行保溫愛心作為優先"},{"start":56.084,"end":78.821,"text":"再過來就跟部長跟署長討論一下有關於規範跟這個管制機制沒有其他可以再進一步處理的地方那我們也知道上一週這邊食藥署有公告的一些修正的內容包括根據這個食品安全衛生管理法第七條的第四項增加了一些要求做監管的部分"},{"start":79.341,"end":93.978,"text":"那這個監管的部分看起來是用這個資本額來當依據希望能夠在不同的資本額之下有它不同的期程那它的人數上又以至少要5人為主那當初在考量這些"},{"start":94.518,"end":112.706,"text":"市政規劃跟評估考量的這些內容的時候不知道有沒有什麼特別的因素為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要5人以上的食品工廠才需要有這樣的規範跟監管的要求署長這邊可不可以先說明一下"},{"start":114.166,"end":130.104,"text":"原先因為納管的範圍資本額是先高的到3000萬以上所以對於整個製造加工的業配的業者裡面我們認為能夠把它縮小的範圍讓他能夠管轄的能夠在這一次能夠"},{"start":130.925,"end":147.013,"text":"提升到能夠較為全面的那五人來講其實是就是一般小型的工廠裡面所以在這種小型工廠都納管的一個前提之下我們能夠把整體的納管的範圍能夠一致性的能夠達到最大的一個涵蓋面目前是這樣的想法"},{"start":147.284,"end":168.767,"text":"對 所以如果你看新增的部分新增資本額未達一千萬元的話要從一百一十七年才開始實施那我們再看下一張我們看這一次出問題的這個陽性負責人的百威有限公司它的資本額才五百萬所以你如果照這個規定就要跟一百十七年才有可能會讓它進入到規範"},{"start":169.988,"end":193.678,"text":"它的設立時間其實蠻早的12年前102年就已經成立所以這五百萬一直這十幾年來好像資本額並沒有改變的情形之下你這樣的規範似乎針對於這個營業額本身帶來的影響是蠻不一樣的那我們也知道這家百貨公司它的營業登記是在台北的寧夏路"},{"start":194.698,"end":211.929,"text":"可是它的工廠是設在屏東應該就是在屠宰場裡面這樣比較好作業它的倉庫是放在新北都是在不同的縣市來做處理這個我們可以理解現在就是說針對於不同資本的制造加工調配額它這邊出問題是3.7公噸"},{"start":216.011,"end":234.277,"text":"這一些相關的這個獨租廠的食品加工所以不知道你現在這樣做這個設計將來在執行上會碰到哪一些可能出現的問題跟漏洞這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正做滾動式的一些管理模式"},{"start":234.597,"end":258.149,"text":"報告委員針對這個部分我們其實部長也特別指示我們因為現在是資本額嘛其實整個營業額的相次其實我們可以希望在未來的電子發票跟電子登錄裡面的勾結能夠確實能夠掌握他們實際上面的一些銀鱷狀況作為我們接下來的一步能夠更確實的一定規模的就能夠納管的一個想法跟委員報告"},{"start":258.809,"end":286.815,"text":"各位知道當時候定定的基本的邏輯是認為它的影響層面但是資本額不等於它的營業額它可能在設立的時候它的資本額並不大可是後面它的這個銷售可能會很大量所以我們也在研究是不是要修正而不是按照它設立這個公司的資本額因為要設立一家公司很容易"},{"start":287.935,"end":314.564,"text":"但是他可能影響後面他發展之後他可能的銷售額或營業額很大影響層面就大了所以影響層面越大的我們認為他的一旦有狀況的時候風險會高所以會把他要求納入這個要有這個食品安全的管理計劃所以我們會來檢討在實務可行的情形之下來做滾動式的修正調整"},{"start":315.284,"end":330.291,"text":"再做一點點的補充因為我們針對所有的廠一定要先有登記那這個廠是沒有登記所以它的第一個部分因為沒有登記所以直接就違法對所有的廠我們對於這個GHP的要求其實是全部一體試用"},{"start":330.911,"end":349.194,"text":"剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人那這件事情是我們希望的確是在分年的來實施那我們在委員的建議之下我們也進一步的去評估看看有進一步的能不能再調整以上OK 好 這個就麻煩真的很需要用心管理"},{"start":349.855,"end":374.933,"text":"那再來這一部分就是食品加工廠他用了特定的化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制因為我們知道其實這家工廠他會用到所謂的這個工業用的雙氧水也許我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒清潔等等可是後來就把他故意誤用在這個部分這個我們是無法理解那將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些"},{"start":375.673,"end":393.051,"text":"好的登錄模式就是說如果一家本來是應該做哪一些加工品的這些廠家他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需要加工品的這些食材上面的時候有一個預警制度"},{"start":393.832,"end":409.529,"text":"意思就是說它有可能要用到工業用可是它也應該還要有一些其他這個屬於可以允許再加工使用的這些東西如果剛開始有好的登錄制度的話呢我們至少可以有一些管理的模式"},{"start":410.129,"end":432.95,"text":"就是比如說我們可以用這個分級管理的方法第一級就是要事前要申報比如說它這個高風險具有漂白殺菌用途的它突然進了大量或者是它用了很多量可能是用在消毒可是理論上它的消毒量應該是有限這是第一級第二級就是要購買以後備查"},{"start":433.59,"end":449.728,"text":"那第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查就是說我們如果事先就能夠掌握好相關的這些處理的這種用品的登錄的這些量的話至少我們可以讓他有機會就可以觸動我們的這個警示"},{"start":450.689,"end":462.204,"text":"另外就是建立這個工業原料採購比對系統讓他這個出現異常的時候我們就能夠及時的去了解去掌握現場的狀況不知道這部分將來的機會如何"},{"start":466.077,"end":493.9,"text":"這邊由我這邊稍微回答一下的確我們面對化學物質其實非常非常多樣化所以在我們現在化學署面針對環境部的化學署針對化學物質裡面有建置所謂跨部會的化學物質的資訊平台所以食藥署去對接他們的話我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向間接跨部會的資訊系統以及化學雲的選定化學物質"},{"start":494.881,"end":520.996,"text":"那选定的一些原则里面我们其实有一部分是食品业者可疑厂商的筛选所以刚才委员特别提到了对于特定的厂商他特定的需求在不同的等级的一些化学物质的采购跟流向的部分我觉得的确是我们是可以进一步去做过去我们针对这部分其实就已经有盯住了62项的化学物质过去在食品安全上面有疑虑的"},{"start":521.576,"end":548.414,"text":"那這次的H2O2的部分其實它是允許的食品添加物只是它是用到了所謂的工業級的所以如何去做工業級跟食品級在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾基我想是一個很重要我們會持續的努力那個跟委員簡單說明就是說我們現在要跟這個環境部化學組這邊要去努力的是大概兩種勾基方式一種是"},{"start":549.375,"end":572.933,"text":"我們並沒有公告可以作為這個添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品因為化學品的話就是用這兩種那這一種我們要嚴格的監測不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭那第二種呢是同時有不同等級的像這一次這個是它本身有食品級跟工業級的這種化學品"},{"start":573.533,"end":594.722,"text":"那這一種呢又是另外一種管理方式那這個要避免的我們去盤點一下我們可供告可使用的化學添加物裡面哪一些是同時有工業等級這個就是另外一種這個要監測所以大概這是兩個我們要去處理的把它分開啦好 這一部分我等一下還會請教許主任"},{"start":595.843,"end":613.439,"text":"再過來就是有關你建立這個夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度許書仁稍等一下沒問題這個其實我們也知道這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市因為他剛好就設在寧夏夜市的這位負責人"},{"start":614.019,"end":634.718,"text":"那我們也看到目前幾乎到台灣的觀光客有八成都會去夜市去消費啊或者是去體會一下台灣的這個特有的文化那事實上這個寧夏夜市他用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心所以碰到這個事情的時候他很快的也做了一些公佈"},{"start":635.419,"end":646.519,"text":"重要的一些措施包括進貨廠商名單的這些確認還有啟動QR Code的食材來源檢驗機制強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等"},{"start":647.239,"end":667.254,"text":"那我們是不是將來有機會透過各種不同的部會透過食安辦還有跟地方政府來鼓勵包括經濟部來處理一個夜市攤商溯源標章鼓勵大家來申請那這樣的話對民眾對觀光客來講都是一個保障"},{"start":667.774,"end":688.377,"text":"所以這個不應該只是一個夜市的自發自律而是需要走向制度化我回去後就會跟各部會來研議那我想這是一個很好的制度然後因為各不是只有台北市的寧夏有這個需要全台灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子然後只要"},{"start":688.937,"end":714.659,"text":"因為如果是一個鼓勵的方法就是說好業者願意配合的我們有一個平台或怎麼樣他可以來做然後相互信賴這個是是可行的我們後續就很積極的就來研議來做好不好謝謝好那就麻煩許主任再過來是有關這個利用科學付諸食品的安全行動我不曉得大家知不知道世界"},{"start":716.559,"end":742.345,"text":"食品的安全日是在哪一天6月7號這邊有寫到嘛那6月7號其實今年他的這個想要訴諸的就是Science in Action就是如何針對食品安全透過科學的方式來保障所有的不管是在哪裡的民眾包括台灣都能夠有一個安全的一個基本的保障"},{"start":742.925,"end":761.554,"text":"那科學本身是一個很具有能力可以保障進步以外所以安全也是非常重要那這邊要請教徐主任就是在112年其實省紀部就針對於如何針對這些化學羽在處理的過程當中有缺弱的部分"},{"start":762.294,"end":784.126,"text":"我們也知道農業部是主管這個化學運化學署可是其他相關的部會包括農業部經濟部等等在那個過程裡面都有出現了一些缺漏跟處理需要再進一步的地方那已經兩年過去了那這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善其實這一些的資料都是各部會給"},{"start":785.985,"end":796.061,"text":"環境部的就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料所以如果有缺漏的話他分兩種一個是欄位就沒有設我們會請我們這禮拜其實就有會議那我會"},{"start":801.548,"end":821.058,"text":"去列管這個項目那第二種的就是有欄位他資料是空白的資料就是空白的那我們就會回到他當列管的部會去了解這一筆怎麼會很重要的這個資料怎麼會是沒有像業者資料或者是品項的那個項目的"},{"start":822.774,"end":836.86,"text":"欄位裡面怎麼可以失空白就要回到就這兩個分工是不一樣就是說缺欄位的我們去補上來然後欄位裡面有空白的那就請部會自己去補上來好不好 謝謝"},{"start":837.748,"end":863.595,"text":"所以我們了解其實食安真的是非常重要一個體系的架構所以科學可以幫助我們把食安做好食品安全的風險分析就包括風險的評估風險溝通跟風險管理這是需要一系列的科學來做決策的一個好的過程所以為什麼他會用Science in Action就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好"},{"start":864.595,"end":892.495,"text":"當然那個化學添加物等等或者是物用也是其中的一部分所以很期待食安辦徐主任這邊可以繼續的努力把這個處理做好那最後其實根據今天的這個想要跟部裡面討論的還有跟徐主任討論就是如何能夠精進食品業者相關的規範剛剛我們已經提過了那另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證"},{"start":893.476,"end":913.056,"text":"最後就是真的需要好的科學一直也講AI怎麼來導入以後等等的方式我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的這個食品安全好 大家來一起努力 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝王議員 謝謝部長 主任 請回"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時14分）好，謝謝主席。麻煩石部長和食藥署姜署長。"],["主席：請石部長和姜署長。","這邊重新公告，王委員詢答結束後，我們就來處理臨時提案，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：部長、署長好。"],["石部長崇良：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：針對今天這個主題，很多委員都已經給部裡非常多元的意見，期待也很高，希望在食安的部分，不要讓國人的日常生活受到影響，食衣住行的部分應該要優先。","接下來我要跟部長和署長討論關於規範和管制機制的部分，有沒有其他可以進一步處理的地方。上一週食藥署公告一些修正內容，包括根據食品安全衛生管理法第七條第四項增加了一些要求監管的部分，看起來這個監管是以資本額為依據，希望在不同的資本額下有不同的期程，人數上以至少要5人為主。當初在考量這些時程規劃跟評估考量的內容時，不知道衛福部有什麼特別因素，為什麼需要用資本額還有一定要有5人以上的食品工廠，才需要有這種規範及監管要求？署長這邊可不可以先說明一下？"],["姜署長至剛：原先納管的規定範圍，資本額是偏高的，要到3,000萬以上，對於整個製造、加工及調配業者，我們希望縮小限制，讓它能夠管轄的範圍在這一次提升到較為全面。以5人來講，其實就是一般小型工廠，在這種小型工廠都納管的前提之下，我們希望把整體納管的範圍一致性的達到最大的涵蓋面，目前是這樣的想法。"],["王委員正旭：如果看新增的部分，資本額未達1,000萬元者，117年才開始要實施。但我們看這一次出問題的百威公司，資本額才500萬元，如果依照這個規定，要到117年才有可能讓它進入到規範裡。其實它公司設立時間蠻早的，在12年前，也就是102年就成立了。但這十幾年來，好像資本額並沒有改變，所以我們這樣的規範，似乎和以營業額為規範帶來的影響蠻不一樣。我們也知道這家百威公司的營業登記是在臺北寧夏路，可是工廠設在屏東，應該就是在屠宰場裡面，這樣比較好作業，它的倉庫也都是在不同縣市，這部分我們可以理解。現在問題是，針對不同資本額的製造、加工、調配業者，這次出問題的是3.7公噸的毒豬腸加工食品，不知道你們現在這樣的設計，將來在執行上，會出現哪一些可能的問題和漏洞？這部分不知道將來有沒有可能做一些修正、作滾動式的管理模式？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，針對這部分，其實部長也特別指示我們，現在的規定是資本額，其實針對整個營業額的項次，我們是希望可以在未來的電子發票和電子登錄裡面的勾稽，能夠確實掌握他們實際上的營業狀況，作為我們接下來的一步，將一定規模的業者更確實納管的想法。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當時訂定的基本邏輯是以影響層面為主，但資本額並不等於營業額，可能它設立的時候資本額並不大，可是後面銷售可能會很大量。所以我們也在研究是不是要加以修正，而不是按照這個公司設立時的資本額來界定，因為要設立一家公司很容易，但是它後面發展之後，可能的銷售額或營業額很大，影響層面就大了！而影響層面越大，一旦有狀況的時候，風險會越高！所以我們會要求把它納入食品安全的管理計畫。這部分我們會再來檢討，在實務可行的情形之下，作滾動式的修正與調整。"],["王委員正旭：是，我想……"],["姜署長至剛：一點點補充，因為所有的工廠一定要先有登記，而這個廠是沒有登記的。因為沒有登記，所以直接就違法。對於所有工廠的GHP要求，其實全部是一體適用，剛才提到三千萬跟以下的加上五人，這件事情我們希望分年來實施，在委員的建議之下，我們也會進一步去評估看看要怎麼調整，以上。"],["王委員正旭：好，這個就麻煩了，真的很需要用心管理。","再來這一部分是食品加工廠用的特定化學原料有沒有機會來做分級管制？我們也知道，其實這一家工廠會用到工業用的雙氧水，我們不知道他是不是用來當消毒、清潔等等，可是後來就把它故意誤用在這個部分，這個我們無法理解。將來有沒有機會可以建立相關的一些好的登錄模式？就是本來應該做哪一些加工品的廠家，他如果進了某一些不宜用在他們所需的加工品的食材上面的時候就會有預警制度。意思就是他有可能要用到工業用，可是他也應該還有一些可以允許再加工使用的這些東西，如果剛開始有好的登錄制度，我們至少可以有一些管理的模式，比如說我們可以用分級管理的方法，第一級就是事前要申報，比如說高風險、具有漂白殺菌用途的，他突然進了大量或者是他用了很多量，可能是用在消毒，可是理論上他的消毒量應該是有限，這是第一級。第二級就是購買以後要備查，第三級就是一般用途來做登錄備查。如果我們事先就能夠掌握好這種用品登錄的量，至少我們可以讓它有機會就可以觸動我們的警示。另外就是建立工業原料採購比對系統，當它出現異常的時候，我們就能夠即時去了解、去掌握現場的狀況，不知道這部分將來的機會如何？"],["姜署長至剛：這由我來稍微回答一下。的確，我們面對的化學物質非常、非常多樣化，所以現在環境部化學署針對化學物質有建置跨部會的化學物質資訊平臺，食藥署去對接他們的話，我們這邊有一個叫化學物質流向鏈結跨部會資訊系統，以及化學雲的選定化學物質，在選定的一些原則裡面，其實有一部分是食品業者可疑廠商的篩選。剛才委員特別提到，對於特定的廠商特定的需求，在不同等級化學物質採購及流向的部分，我覺得我們的確可以進一步去做。過去我們針對這部分，其實就已經有盯住62項過去在食品安全上面有疑慮的化學物質，這次的H2O2的部分，其實是允許的食品添加物，只是業者用到了工業級的。所以如何去做工業級跟食品級，在食品廠裡面我們進一步去了解跟勾稽，我想是很重要的，我們會持續努力。"],["王委員正旭：好。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員簡單說明。我們現在要跟環境部化學署去努力的大概是兩種勾稽方式：一種是我們並沒有公告可以作為添加物或者清潔劑的這些化學品，因為化學品就是用這兩種，這一種我們要嚴格的監測，不要流入我們的食品鏈裡頭；第二種是同時有不同等級的，像這一次是它本身有食品級跟工業級的化學品，這一種又是另外一種管理方式。我們去盤點一下在公告可使用的化學添加物裡面，哪一些是同時有工業等級，這個就是另外一種要監測的部分。所以大概就是兩個我們要去處理的，把它分開啦！"],["王委員正旭：好，這一部分我等一下也會請教許主任。","再過來是有關於建立夜市跟攤商溯源標章鼓勵認證制度，請許主任稍等一下。其實我們也知道，這次受傷最嚴重的就是寧夏夜市，因為他剛好就是設在寧夏夜市的這一位負責人。我們也看到目前到臺灣的觀光客幾乎有八成都會去夜市消費，或者是去體會一下臺灣特有的文化。事實上，寧夏夜市用雙語來讓觀光客可以更安心，所以碰到這件事情的時候，他很快的也做了一些公布、採取一些重要的措施，包括進貨廠商名單的確認，還有啟動QR Code食材來源檢驗機制，強化攤商自主管理跟進貨的依據保存等等。我們將來是不是有機會可以透過各個不同的部會、透過食安辦以及地方政府，包括經濟部，來處理夜市攤商溯源標章，鼓勵大家來申請？這樣對民眾、對觀光客來講都是一個保障。所以不應該只是夜市的自發自律，而是需要走向制度化。"],["許主任輔：好，我回去之後就會跟各部會研議，我想這是一個很好的制度。其實也不是只有臺北市的寧夏夜市有這個需要，全臺灣各縣市都有像夜市這樣子的情況。如果是一個鼓勵的方法，業者願意配合的，我們有一個平臺或怎麼樣他可以來做，然後相互信賴，這是可行的，我們後續會很積極研議並且來做，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩許主任。","再來是有關於利用科學付諸食品的安全行動，不曉得大家知不知道世界食品安全日是在哪一天？"],["許主任輔：6月7號。"],["王委員正旭：這邊有寫到是在6月7號，其實今年想要訴諸的就是science in action，也就是針對食品安全，是要透過科學的方式來保障所有的民眾，不管是在哪裡的民眾，包括臺灣都能夠有一個安全的基本保障。科學本身除了具有能力可以保障進步以外，對於安全也是非常重要的。這邊想要請教許主任，其實在112年審計部就對於如何針對化學雲在處理的過程當中有缺漏的部分……我們也知道環境部化學署主管化學雲，可是其他相關的部會，包括衛福部、農業部、經濟部等等，在那個過程裡面都有出現一些缺漏以及需要再進一步處理的地方，已經兩年過去了，這部分不知道有做了哪一些改善？"],["許主任輔：其實這一些資料都是各部會給環境部的，也就是化學雲是跟各部會收資料。所以如果有缺漏的話，那麼分為兩種：一個是欄位就沒有設，我們這禮拜其實就有會議，我會去列管這個項目；第二種是有欄位，但資料是空白的，那我們就會回到它當列管的部會，去了解這一筆很重要的資料怎麼會沒有？像業者資料或者是品項的項目欄位怎麼可以是空白？這兩個分工是不一樣的，缺欄位的我們去補上來，而欄位裡面有空白的，就請部會自己去補上來，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：我們了解食安真的是一個非常重要的體系、架構，科學可以幫助我們把食安做好，食品安全的風險分析就包括風險評估、風險溝通及風險管理，這需要一系列的科學來做一個好的決策過程。所以為什麼他會用science in action？就是希望透過科學的模式來把食安做好，當然化學添加物的誤用也是其中的一部分，所以很期待食安辦許主任這邊可以繼續努力把這件事情做好。"],["許主任輔：好，是的。"],["王委員正旭：其實今天想要跟衛福部及許主任討論的是如何精進食品業者相關的規範，這個剛剛我們已經提過了；另外就是希望能夠鼓勵夜市攤商來做溯源標章的認證；最後是真的需要好的科學，一直在講AI怎麼來導入、以後等等的方式。我相信善用科學才能夠提供民眾最好的食品安全，大家來一起努力，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，部長及主任請回。","我們現在來處理臨時提案，計有一案，請宣讀。","臨時提案","針對檢調破獲百威公司違法使用工業雙氧水，並封存大量問題產品，但兩地衛生局後續在市面抽驗（針對過氧化氫篩檢）的結果卻全數合格（陰性）。表示問題大腸已在市面消化完畢。這樣的情況令人驚恐！","爰提案要求衛福部盡速查明流向，於一個月內向衛環委員會提交專案報告敘明流向，追究相關責任，並檢討防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生。","提案人：蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍　　王育敏　　盧縣一"],["主席：請問針對本案，行政單位有無意見？"],["姜署長至剛：召委及蘇委員。針對這項臨時提案，食藥署建議是否可以將第二段「爰提案要求衛福部盡速查明流向，於一個月內向衛環委員會提交專案報告……」中之「專案報告」修正為「書面報告」？因為今天專案的部分我們做了進一步說明，所以建議修正為「書面報告敘明流向，並檢討相關通報及查核作業程序，防堵食安疑慮事件再度發生。」是不是可以按照這樣做一些修改？以上。"],["主席：請提案委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：第一段後面「表示問題大腸已在市內消化完畢」，是被吃光了，還是……"],["姜署長至剛：並沒有完全，我們封存的有1萬2,604噸，其中還有145……"],["石部長崇良：他說現場封存起來的是1萬2,604公斤，這個是沒有流出去的，是封存起來的；另外，已經賣出去但還在下游廠商那裡、我們趕快下架的，是2,430公斤；真正已經賣到消費者那邊的是784公斤，目前的流向完全掌握清楚是這樣。另外，不是這家廠商出去的，我們還有擴大市面的抽驗，目前驗起來也都沒有殘留的H2O2（雙氧水）。"],["蘇委員清泉：那就照他們修改的，同意。"],["主席：好，提案委員接受你們建議的修改文字，臨時提案就照這樣的文字修正後通過，謝謝。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請盧縣一委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}