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117.316, \"end\": 117.896, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 117.896, \"end\": 118.016, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"且\", \"start\": 118.016, \"end\": 118.196, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"霸\", \"start\": 118.196, \"end\": 119.217, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 119.217, \"end\": 119.818, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 119.818, \"end\": 120.498, \"score\": 0.678}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 120.498, \"end\": 120.658, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 120.658, \"end\": 120.818, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 120.818, \"end\": 120.958, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 120.958, \"end\": 121.399, \"score\": 0.683}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 121.399, \"end\": 121.579, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 121.579, \"end\": 121.639, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": 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\"區\"}, {\"word\": \"域\", \"start\": 132.627, \"end\": 132.767, \"score\": 0.682}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 132.767, \"end\": 132.948, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 132.948, \"end\": 133.168, \"score\": 0.808}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 133.168, \"end\": 133.328, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.328, \"end\": 134.629, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"鄉\"}, {\"word\": \"鎮\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 134.629, \"end\": 135.149, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 135.149, \"end\": 135.309, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 135.309, \"end\": 135.53, \"score\": 0.717}, {\"word\": \"戒\", \"start\": 135.53, \"end\": 135.89, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 135.89, \"end\": 136.21, \"score\": 0.535}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"共\", \"start\": 136.21, \"end\": 136.41, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 136.41, \"end\": 136.59, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"概\", \"start\": 136.59, \"end\": 136.951, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 136.951, \"end\": 137.111, \"score\": 0.709}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 137.111, \"end\": 137.231, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 137.231, \"end\": 137.411, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 137.411, \"end\": 137.911, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"需\", \"start\": 137.911, \"end\": 138.051, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 138.051, \"end\": 138.112, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"撤\", \"start\": 138.112, \"end\": 138.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"離\"}]}, {\"start\": 140.312, \"end\": 141.553, \"text\": \"這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 140.312, \"end\": 140.332, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 140.932, \"end\": 140.972, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 140.972, \"end\": 141.093, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"送\", \"start\": 141.093, \"end\": 141.113, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 141.113, \"end\": 141.133, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 141.133, \"end\": 141.153, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"華\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 141.153, \"end\": 141.173, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沙\", \"start\": 141.173, \"end\": 141.193, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 141.193, \"end\": 141.213, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 141.213, \"end\": 141.233, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 141.233, \"end\": 141.253, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 141.253, \"end\": 141.273, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 141.273, \"end\": 141.293, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 141.293, \"end\": 141.313, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 141.313, \"end\": 141.333, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 141.333, \"end\": 141.433, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 141.433, \"end\": 141.473, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 141.473, \"end\": 141.493, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 141.493, \"end\": 141.513, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 141.513, \"end\": 141.533, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 141.533, \"end\": 141.553, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 166.431, \"end\": 181.385, \"text\": \"我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 166.431, \"end\": 166.611, \"score\": 0.782}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 166.611, \"end\": 166.992, \"score\": 0.657}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"堰\", \"start\": 166.992, \"end\": 167.312, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"塞\", \"start\": 167.312, \"end\": 167.632, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"湖\", \"start\": 167.632, \"end\": 167.852, \"score\": 0.627}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 167.852, \"end\": 168.073, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 168.073, \"end\": 168.633, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 168.633, \"end\": 168.833, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 168.833, \"end\": 169.154, \"score\": 0.694}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 169.154, \"end\": 169.274, \"score\": 0.547}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 169.274, \"end\": 169.474, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"指\", \"start\": 169.474, \"end\": 169.594, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 169.594, \"end\": 169.714, \"score\": 0.646}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 169.714, \"end\": 170.054, \"score\": 0.686}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 170.054, \"end\": 170.234, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"沙\", \"start\": 170.234, \"end\": 170.455, \"score\": 0.655}, {\"word\": \"封\", \"start\": 170.455, \"end\": 171.315, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"畫\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 171.315, \"end\": 172.637, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"沙\", \"start\": 172.637, \"end\": 172.697, \"score\": 0.349}, {\"word\": \"封\", \"start\": 172.697, \"end\": 173.297, \"score\": 0.59}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 173.297, \"end\": 173.397, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 173.397, \"end\": 173.517, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"只\", \"start\": 173.517, \"end\": 173.638, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 173.638, \"end\": 173.758, \"score\": 0.483}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 173.758, \"end\": 174.098, \"score\": 0.713}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 174.098, \"end\": 174.298, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"台\", \"start\": 174.298, \"end\": 175.219, \"score\": 0.684}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 175.219, \"end\": 175.379, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 175.379, \"end\": 175.96, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 175.96, \"end\": 176.06, \"score\": 0.277}, {\"word\": \"屏\", \"start\": 176.06, \"end\": 176.56, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 176.56, \"end\": 176.66, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 176.66, \"end\": 176.76, 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\"text\": \"那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 859.944, \"end\": 859.964, \"score\": 0.125}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 859.964, \"end\": 860.024, \"score\": 0.661}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 860.024, \"end\": 860.044, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 860.044, \"end\": 860.064, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 860.064, \"end\": 860.084, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 860.084, \"end\": 860.104, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 860.104, \"end\": 860.184, \"score\": 0.339}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 860.184, \"end\": 860.204, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 860.204, \"end\": 860.224, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 860.224, \"end\": 860.244, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 860.244, 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\"start\": 882.803, \"end\": 882.883, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 882.883, \"end\": 882.903, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 882.903, \"end\": 882.923, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 882.923, \"end\": 882.943, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"9\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 882.943, \"end\": 883.283, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"號\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 883.283, \"end\": 883.303, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"早\", \"start\": 883.303, \"end\": 883.343, \"score\": 0.499}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 883.343, \"end\": 883.603, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"4\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 883.603, \"end\": 883.623, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 883.623, \"end\": 883.643, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 883.643, \"end\": 883.663, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"颱\"}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 883.663, \"end\": 883.703, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 883.703, \"end\": 883.723, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 883.723, \"end\": 883.743, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 883.743, \"end\": 883.763, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 883.763, \"end\": 883.783, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 899.335, \"end\": 900.937, \"text\": \"警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"警\", \"start\": 899.335, \"end\": 899.495, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 899.495, \"end\": 899.736, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 899.736, \"end\": 899.956, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 899.956, \"end\": 899.976, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 899.976, \"end\": 899.996, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 899.996, \"end\": 900.016, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"園\"}, {\"word\": \"署\", \"start\": 900.016, \"end\": 900.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 900.036, \"end\": 900.096, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 900.096, \"end\": 900.116, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 900.116, \"end\": 900.136, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 900.136, \"end\": 900.256, \"score\": 0.322}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 900.256, \"end\": 900.356, \"score\": 0.71}, {\"word\": \"登\", \"start\": 900.356, \"end\": 900.376, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 900.376, \"end\": 900.476, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 900.476, \"end\": 900.537, \"score\": 0.095}, {\"word\": \"山\", \"start\": 900.537, \"end\": 900.557, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 900.557, \"end\": 900.637, \"score\": 0.512}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 900.637, \"end\": 900.657, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"取\", \"start\": 900.657, 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\"start\": 938.807, \"end\": 939.368, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"難\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 939.368, \"end\": 939.489, \"score\": 0.712}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 939.489, \"end\": 939.949, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 939.949, \"end\": 941.151, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"嚴\"}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 941.151, \"end\": 941.392, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 941.392, \"end\": 941.853, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 941.853, \"end\": 942.153, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 942.153, \"end\": 942.273, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 942.273, \"end\": 942.594, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 942.594, \"end\": 942.794, \"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 942.794, \"end\": 943.075, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 943.075, \"end\": 943.475, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 943.475, \"end\": 943.856, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 943.856, \"end\": 944.016, \"score\": 0.785}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 944.016, \"end\": 944.337, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 944.337, \"end\": 944.457, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"起\", \"start\": 944.457, \"end\": 944.537, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 944.537, \"end\": 944.557, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,995 --> 00:00:15,540\n謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜文珍次長請以上列到列席徐文豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討\n\n2\n00:00:35,194 --> 00:00:55,044\n事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡\n\n3\n00:00:56,405 --> 00:01:00,909\n那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7、8千人所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了\n\n4\n00:01:17,603 --> 00:01:43,129\n那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有9次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月2111點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流\n\n5\n00:01:46,961 --> 00:01:48,155\n那請花蓮先生立即\n\n6\n00:01:49,309 --> 00:02:18,132\n這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離\n\n7\n00:02:20,312 --> 00:02:21,553\n這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎\n\n8\n00:02:46,431 --> 00:03:01,385\n我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少\n\n9\n00:03:17,205 --> 00:03:20,506\n所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責\n\n10\n00:03:34,691 --> 00:03:37,392\n那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎\n\n11\n00:03:49,386 --> 00:04:12,424\n就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對\n\n12\n00:04:14,305 --> 00:04:19,172\n花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里\n\n13\n00:04:31,529 --> 00:04:58,829\n兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離\n\n14\n00:04:59,953 --> 00:05:16,045\n報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升\n\n15\n00:05:17,146 --> 00:05:43,681\n到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們\n\n16\n00:05:44,221 --> 00:05:45,824\n那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命\n\n17\n00:05:57,096 --> 00:06:17,310\n那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報\n\n18\n00:06:29,224 --> 00:06:49,142\n報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源\n\n19\n00:06:49,822 --> 00:07:10,901\n但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為\n\n20\n00:07:12,522 --> 00:07:19,048\n因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶\n\n21\n00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:49,992\n922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎\n\n22\n00:07:50,872 --> 00:07:59,697\n其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要\n\n23\n00:08:16,165 --> 00:08:28,688\n趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人\n\n24\n00:08:37,386 --> 00:08:40,689\n來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百\n\n25\n00:08:57,501 --> 00:09:01,102\n4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您\n\n26\n00:09:13,577 --> 00:09:30,875\n這個社會防禁委員會主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的我們要這個目前有多少名利請問一下\n\n27\n00:09:32,369 --> 00:09:56,581\n部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工\n\n28\n00:09:57,481 --> 00:10:18,820\n那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎\n\n29\n00:10:20,078 --> 00:10:26,160\n就是我剛所說的我們有一些易景易銷民房全部加在內去年應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下在這一次的這個我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果\n\n30\n00:10:38,824 --> 00:10:46,605\n跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用\n\n31\n00:11:07,749 --> 00:11:20,486\n因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要\n\n32\n00:11:22,034 --> 00:11:39,604\n去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七\n\n33\n00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:46,582\n那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候\n\n34\n00:12:09,376 --> 00:12:13,379\n應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限\n\n35\n00:12:26,428 --> 00:12:32,333\n但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位\n\n36\n00:12:43,803 --> 00:12:52,526\n而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內\n\n37\n00:13:11,992 --> 00:13:15,515\n為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個\n\n38\n00:13:34,072 --> 00:13:52,418\n這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離\n\n39\n00:13:57,881 --> 00:14:18,222\n有啊我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助\n\n40\n00:14:19,944 --> 00:14:22,206\n那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個\n\n41\n00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:43,783\n在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後\n\n42\n00:14:59,335 --> 00:15:00,937\n警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全\n\n43\n00:15:08,598 --> 00:15:12,979\n那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話\n\n44\n00:15:35,822 --> 00:15:44,557\n像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5995\t15540\t謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜文珍次長請以上列到列席徐文豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討\n35194\t55044\t事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡\n56405\t60909\t那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7、8千人所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了\n77603\t103129\t那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有9次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月21 11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流\n106961\t108155\t那請花蓮先生立即\n109309\t138132\t這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離\n140312\t141553\t這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎\n166431\t181385\t我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少\n197205\t200506\t所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責\n214691\t217392\t那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎\n229386\t252424\t就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對\n254305\t259172\t花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里\n271529\t298829\t兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離\n299953\t316045\t報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升\n317146\t343681\t到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們\n344221\t345824\t那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命\n357096\t377310\t那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報\n389224\t409142\t報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源\n409822\t430901\t但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為\n432522\t439048\t因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶\n452560\t469992\t922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎\n470872\t479697\t其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要\n496165\t508688\t趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人\n517386\t520689\t來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百\n537501\t541102\t4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您\n553577\t570875\t這個社會防禁委員會 主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備 您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性 我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的 我們要這個目前有多少名利 請問一下\n572369\t596581\t部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工\n597481\t618820\t那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎\n620078\t626160\t就是我剛所說的 我們有一些易景易銷 民房全部加在內去年 應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下 在這一次的這個 我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果\n638824\t646605\t跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用\n667749\t680486\t因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要\n682034\t699604\t去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七\n700919\t706582\t那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候\n729376\t733379\t應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限\n746428\t752333\t但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位\n763803\t772526\t而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內\n791992\t795515\t為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛 人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個\n814072\t832418\t這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離\n837881\t858222\t有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助\n859944\t862206\t那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個\n877159\t883783\t在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後\n899335\t900937\t警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全\n908598\t912979\t那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話\n935822\t944557\t像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜文珍次長請以上列到列席徐文豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討\n事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡\n那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7、8千人所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了\n那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有9次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月21 11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流\n那請花蓮先生立即\n這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離\n這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎\n我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少\n所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責\n那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎\n就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對\n花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里\n兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離\n報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升\n到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們\n那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命\n那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報\n報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源\n但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為\n因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶\n922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎\n其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要\n趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人\n來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百\n4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您\n這個社會防禁委員會 主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備 您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性 我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的 我們要這個目前有多少名利 請問一下\n部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工\n那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎\n就是我剛所說的 我們有一些易景易銷 民房全部加在內去年 應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下 在這一次的這個 我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果\n跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用\n因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要\n去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七\n那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候\n應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限\n但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位\n而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內\n為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛 人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個\n這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離\n有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助\n那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個\n在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後\n警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全\n那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話\n像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.995 --> 00:15.540\n謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜文珍次長請以上列到列席徐文豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討\n\n00:35.194 --> 00:55.044\n事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡\n\n00:56.405 --> 01:00.909\n那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7、8千人所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了\n\n01:17.603 --> 01:43.129\n那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有9次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月2111點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流\n\n01:46.961 --> 01:48.155\n那請花蓮先生立即\n\n01:49.309 --> 02:18.132\n這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離\n\n02:20.312 --> 02:21.553\n這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎\n\n02:46.431 --> 03:01.385\n我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少\n\n03:17.205 --> 03:20.506\n所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責\n\n03:34.691 --> 03:37.392\n那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎\n\n03:49.386 --> 04:12.424\n就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對\n\n04:14.305 --> 04:19.172\n花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里\n\n04:31.529 --> 04:58.829\n兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離\n\n04:59.953 --> 05:16.045\n報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升\n\n05:17.146 --> 05:43.681\n到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們\n\n05:44.221 --> 05:45.824\n那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命\n\n05:57.096 --> 06:17.310\n那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報\n\n06:29.224 --> 06:49.142\n報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源\n\n06:49.822 --> 07:10.901\n但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為\n\n07:12.522 --> 07:19.048\n因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶\n\n07:32.560 --> 07:49.992\n922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎\n\n07:50.872 --> 07:59.697\n其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要\n\n08:16.165 --> 08:28.688\n趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人\n\n08:37.386 --> 08:40.689\n來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百\n\n08:57.501 --> 09:01.102\n4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您\n\n09:13.577 --> 09:30.875\n這個社會防禁委員會主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的我們要這個目前有多少名利請問一下\n\n09:32.369 --> 09:56.581\n部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工\n\n09:57.481 --> 10:18.820\n那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎\n\n10:20.078 --> 10:26.160\n就是我剛所說的我們有一些易景易銷民房全部加在內去年應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下在這一次的這個我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果\n\n10:38.824 --> 10:46.605\n跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用\n\n11:07.749 --> 11:20.486\n因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要\n\n11:22.034 --> 11:39.604\n去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七\n\n11:40.919 --> 11:46.582\n那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候\n\n12:09.376 --> 12:13.379\n應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限\n\n12:26.428 --> 12:32.333\n但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位\n\n12:43.803 --> 12:52.526\n而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內\n\n13:11.992 --> 13:15.515\n為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個\n\n13:34.072 --> 13:52.418\n這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離\n\n13:57.881 --> 14:18.222\n有啊我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助\n\n14:19.944 --> 14:22.206\n那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個\n\n14:37.159 --> 14:43.783\n在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後\n\n14:59.335 --> 15:00.937\n警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全\n\n15:08.598 --> 15:12.979\n那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話\n\n15:35.822 --> 15:44.557\n像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.995,"end":15.54,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝召委我們請劉世芳劉部長跟園民會曾主委還有農業部杜文珍次長請以上列到列席徐文豪部長好還有曾主委還有杜次長我想這一次的這個花家沙颱風的來襲造成了很大的一個災害這也是我們今天這個該這個專報所要大家共同來探討"},{"start":35.194,"end":55.044,"text":"事前跟事後未來要怎麼來去預防的方式那當然因為這一次在9月21號上午9點召開首次的會議開始當時這個馬太安溪這個堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右那一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村裡"},{"start":56.405,"end":60.909,"text":"那大概也大概只有600人但是在晚間6點的時候召開第三次會議的時候撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7、8千人所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說在短期內要通知這些民眾要離開是有困難的他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了"},{"start":77.603,"end":103.129,"text":"那我們來看一下在林保署他的通報時間說有總共有9次的通報撤離包括我們看到第一次是在9月20的一般警戒第二次是在9月21 11點的黃色警戒就是海警已經發布之後那第三次是在9月22的70的紅色警戒就是陸警已經發布之後那我們那時候也提醒說驗射5可能在23或24可能會這個霸頂會溢流"},{"start":106.961,"end":108.155,"text":"那請花蓮先生立即"},{"start":109.309,"end":138.132,"text":"這個執行強制性的撤離跟育嬰變的一個措施然後到9月232點50分那艷澀湖就溢流而且霸體了那針對這個部分我想請教一下在9月22號7點的紅色警戒當時發了全國就是在那個災害的這個花家山風災的這個這個相關的區域發了多少的鄉鎮有這樣紅色警戒那總共大概有多少人數需要撤離"},{"start":140.312,"end":141.553,"text":"這個應該是有我們就是針對花蓮縣政府跟那個光復還有鳳林還有這個萬榮相公所那就是針對921的下午6點的那個決議來發送所以當時華家沙風災的部分針對台東那時候沒有發布只有針對花蓮是嗎"},{"start":166.431,"end":181.385,"text":"我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的對我現在指的是畫家沙封災對畫家沙封災應該不是只有花蓮嘛台東應該也是還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛農業部是針對堰塞湖的部分那請教一下那這個問題應該誰要回答就當時針對紅色警戒我們發了多少鄉鎮的這個必須要還有撤離還有撤離的總人數是多少"},{"start":197.205,"end":200.506,"text":"所以如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話代表就是說我們的部會在針對這部分有很大的問題有關於您提到了就是非這個這次花蓮艷色湖如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的或是農業部的林保署農業部的水保署在負責"},{"start":214.691,"end":217.392,"text":"那這次包括台東縣政府或屏東縣政府的雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒但是風雨過了以後這個黃色警戒就解除了所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣是這樣嗎"},{"start":229.386,"end":252.424,"text":"就是針對馬灘、堰塞湖如果逆流可能影響的區域對 那你就告訴我就是只有化因為你是農業部嘛 對不對所以你只針對這個堰塞湖的部分那我現在指的是化加沙風災的時候剛剛劉部長有說那在台東地區有一些因為還不到那個紅色警戒所以沒有撤離的必要是這樣嗎所以等於這次是有針對"},{"start":254.305,"end":259.172,"text":"花蓮的部分我想請教一下剛剛就講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難我們可以看一下花蓮光復鄉的這個站立面積有157.1平方公里鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里"},{"start":271.529,"end":298.829,"text":"兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里比整個台北市都大所以要在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林站長、光復鄉長去做這樣的一個通知撤離的困難是有非常大的一個問題的所以他們也提出這樣子的一個希望中央能夠來協助那當時請問一下中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離"},{"start":299.953,"end":316.045,"text":"報告委員我想在9月21下午的時候我們邀集包括花蓮縣政府還有三個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括台大還有陽明交大的會議裡面當時他們就知道說我們會把撤離的人數往上調升"},{"start":317.146,"end":343.681,"text":"到一千八百戶後來農業部再追加變成一千八百三十七戶他們已經知道所以我們在九月二十二號下午三點第五次的工作會報的時候呢這個花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們說我們的兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車八輛救護車一輛兵力五十四名警消跟協助一百零五名他們有沒有要求中央就是內政部這邊提供協助我們提供這個部分給他們"},{"start":344.221,"end":345.824,"text":"那這樣子他們就可以處理是嗎延復縣長是這樣回復給我們的所以我們就是按照這個方式所以我們的國軍弟兄呢他是在第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命"},{"start":357.096,"end":377.31,"text":"那所以說照理說如果提供這樣的一個協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話應該不會發生最後這麼多的問題嗎所以到底是中央跟地方在這個溝通協調上有什麼樣的一個狀況我覺得當然我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討那當然還有就是說剛剛大家都一直提到這個海嘯警報照理說這樣子當我們發現有可能這樣一個潰堤的狀況的時候為什麼不發布海嘯警報"},{"start":389.224,"end":409.142,"text":"報告委員這部分我來說明一下在那個海嘯的警報之前是不適用在顏色湖的因為他並不是這個法定可以使用這個海嘯警報的所以等於就是均立於法令那個是嗎我特別要這個其實之前有討論過也跟相關部會討論過他欠缺法源"},{"start":409.822,"end":430.901,"text":"但是我要說明剛剛之前蘇喬惠委員也有示範你前面沒有任何的宣導教育沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思你突然發布大家還是不知道所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導等於說之前剛剛您有提到說之前就有討論過這個問題但是就不了了之是嗎不是不了了之因為"},{"start":432.522,"end":439.048,"text":"因為我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做為什麼會有一個海嘯警報其實它有細胞簡訊是還有文字那細胞簡訊有發嗎有有有細胞簡訊有發給你細胞簡訊它有文字它會比聲音更直觀那請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶"},{"start":452.56,"end":469.992,"text":"922之後總共發了八次總共發了多少戶就是你剛剛造冊的這些光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到就是在匡聯的區統統都收得到那所以當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報是這樣的意思嗎"},{"start":470.872,"end":479.697,"text":"其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更有更快其實就像我們講的就是剛剛提的嘛就說你聽到防空警報你就知道趕快要逃難了同樣的你聽到海嘯警報因為有時候看簡訊不見得他會在看簡訊所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上的來去檢討是不是這個海嘯警報是不是該用這樣一個方式不要再用那種軍力在法令上面我覺得這個一定要"},{"start":496.165,"end":508.688,"text":"趕快立即來檢討所以我們從這次的撤離看起來其實很多其實都是人禍的問題而不是完全是天災也是因為我們很多一連串的疏忽會發生這樣的一個問題尤其是請教一下劉部長因為剛剛我們其實有很多人有提到的就是說這次有很多的產製工產製超人"},{"start":517.386,"end":520.689,"text":"來到這邊協助救災那我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛任性委員會是由總統擔任召集人那去年我們在審查今年度的預算的時候我們也多編了這個大概四億一千多百"},{"start":537.501,"end":541.102,"text":"4000多萬的全社會防衛任性訓練工作的相關經費最後通過3億8000多萬那請問一下針對這個社會防衛社會防衛任性委員會我當時有請教過您"},{"start":553.577,"end":570.875,"text":"這個社會防禁委員會 主要編列這麼多預算是不是在為救災做準備 您跟我講不是它是重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力那請問在這一次社會這個防禦任性 我們所謂的名利就是當時您講的 我們要這個目前有多少名利 請問一下"},{"start":572.369,"end":596.581,"text":"部長多少多少名利對就是我們的所謂的民房的這個人力如果你現在是編制內的還是編制外的編制內多少編制外多少如果說把那個一般的包括這個替代役或者是警消役警這些全部加在內的話大約是20萬上下但是詳細的數字要容我再檢查一下編制外的呢編制外就是所謂的志工"},{"start":597.481,"end":618.82,"text":"那志工的部分我們現在有也有大量在做這方面的一個訓練那其實訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會好像慈濟基金會的話他們這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次那請問一下 也是有受到防災式的訓練部長您所謂的我們的全社會防衛任性工作裡面的這個名利請問到底是多少就是您剛講的二十幾萬是嗎"},{"start":620.078,"end":626.16,"text":"就是我剛所說的 我們有一些易景易銷 民房全部加在內去年 應該說今年有3億8千多萬的一個經費請問一下 在這一次的這個 我們的這個馬太安的這個艷澀湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果"},{"start":638.824,"end":646.605,"text":"跟委員報告就是我剛跟您提到的齁包括說像慈濟基金會或者是我們備役的或是現役的慈濟基金會算是你剛講體制外嗎我現在講的是體制內的我想不是體制內外啦就是編制外跟編制內那編制內的這一次的名利到底發揮了什麼效果因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬就告訴我們說要用來救災用一些一些這個提升應變的能力那請問這次有發生什麼樣的一個作用"},{"start":667.749,"end":680.486,"text":"因為我們看到的都是產值超人產值志工然後帶有6萬多的產值志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙那這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力不該就是我們這個民防的人力應該要加入應該要"},{"start":682.034,"end":699.604,"text":"去做的但為什麼現在都是志工在做那我們真正的名利我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點好那我在這邊讓你說明就是怎麼樣我們這是統計的出來我這邊就是統計資料是我們是三萬一千六百八十五然後如果是替代役的話是一千七百七十七"},{"start":700.919,"end":706.582,"text":"那所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣的一個效果那顯然一定是人力不夠嘛對不對那你剛講我們有22萬的這個名利那為什麼不能從其他地方也調集來去因為我剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了就是有關於替代役的部分全台灣除了花蓮以外20個縣市我們也都調動了對替代役畢竟人數少嘛我現在指的是說當你發覺需要這麼多的一個志工的時候"},{"start":729.376,"end":733.379,"text":"應該是要由這個內支部這邊來調度所有的名利因為事實上他們是有經過訓練的因為產職志工他們有熱忱他們不見得有訓練的一個能力所以他變成可能會有這樣子的一個狀況他到現場他很有熱忱可是能夠協助的畢竟有限"},{"start":746.428,"end":752.333,"text":"但是我們平常訓練這麼多的名利本來就該在這種就單的時候發揮效果但是我們已經盡量在調動而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動我們既然有一個全社會防衛任性這麼重要的一個單位"},{"start":763.803,"end":772.526,"text":"而且名利有這麼多可是卻沒有在這次的發揮效果我覺得有很大的一個問題請部長好好介紹因為當然我相信我們沒有一個在這個過程我們現在說實在不是在究責而是未來要怎麼來去預防未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果尤其是在我的觀點裡是這些名利平常就訓練過訓練有時候重要是要去到現場再去應該可以發揮更大的一個效果他們包括搜救的人力都算在內"},{"start":791.992,"end":795.515,"text":"為什麼還需要6萬多的志工到現場表示就是不夠嘛 人力就是不夠如果不是看到現場一片的災難一片的狼藉不會有這麼多人自發性的過去所以我在這邊跟部長探討就是說今年度我們一定還要再編列各項的有關這個"},{"start":814.072,"end":832.418,"text":"這個民房名利的一個預算那我們怎麼來去真正讓他發揮效果是我覺得是重點是謝謝我當然不好意思因為我剛剛有請有請這個曾主委上來我只要請教他一句就是因為在這個地方算原鄉那原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的所以在這次的撤離的溝通過程中內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離"},{"start":837.881,"end":858.222,"text":"有啊 我們協助就是說我們調了全國的這個社工園 原住民的社工園尤其是會阿美族裔的我們一次就調希望能夠他們可以做家戶的這個拜訪還有未住進的發放等等協助很多最多的時候是一天到74個人就是我們來協助"},{"start":859.944,"end":862.206,"text":"那所以在這次等於我們園民會這邊也有協助內政部去撤離這些那相信這個部分的話可能也是一個重點啦因為我們那邊是園鄉那不好意思最後再提醒各位一下就是我們在每一次的這個"},{"start":877.159,"end":883.783,"text":"在這個登山的時候我記得有一些朋友告訴我就說內政部我這個在可以參考一下我們這個警察局就說我們在這一次的這個花家鄉風災快要來之前在9月21號的早上8點44分海上颱風警報這個已經發布之後"},{"start":899.335,"end":900.937,"text":"警察局就國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山的行程以維護安全"},{"start":908.598,"end":912.979,"text":"那我覺得其實在不管是國家公安署或警察局都已經知道要料敵重演的狀況之下那我們可以看一下喔甚至事實上他們在9月18號就已經打電話通知這些山友因為畫家沙封栽要來所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程也就是說如果這段時間大家我們都能夠以這樣的一個心情提早的告知提早的告訴他們要撤離的話"},{"start":935.822,"end":944.557,"text":"像國家公務員署跟警察局這樣的話應該這次的災難就不會這麼的嚴重了那提供這樣的一個訊息要請大家一起來參考謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":499,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時24分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委，請劉世芳部長、原民會曾主委，還有農業部杜文珍次長。"],["主席：請以上列席。"],["劉部長世芳：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好，還有曾主委、杜次長。這一次的樺加沙颱風來襲，造成了很大的災害，這也是我們今天召開這個專報的原因，大家要共同探討事前跟事後，以及未來要如何預防。","這次從9月21號上午9點召開首次會議開始，當時馬太鞍堰塞湖離溢流的高度差大概還有20公尺左右，一開始需要撤離的保全戶大概只有6個村里，大概只有600人，但是在晚間6點召開第3次會議的時候，撤離的人數就從600人要增加到7,000、8,000人，所以包括鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長都說，在短期內要通知這些民眾離開是有困難的，他們已經發出這樣子的一個求救了。我們來看一下林保署的通報時間，總共有9次的通報撤離，第一次是在9月20日的一般警戒；第二次是在9月21日11點的黃色警戒，就是海警已經發布之後；第三次是在9月22日7時的紅色警戒，就是陸警已經發布之後，那時候也提醒堰塞湖可能在23日或24日會發生壩頂溢流，請花蓮縣政府立即執行強制性的撤離跟應變措施，到9月23日2點50分堰塞湖就溢流了。","針對這個部分我想請教一下，在9月22號7點發布的紅色警戒，當時有關樺加沙風災的相關區域，多少鄉鎮有發布這樣紅色警戒，總共大概有多少人數需要撤離？"],["林署長華慶：我們是針對花蓮縣政府跟光復、鳳林及萬榮鄉公所，就是針對921下午6點的那個決議來發送。"],["許委員宇甄：所以那時候樺加沙風災針對臺東沒有發布，只有針對花蓮，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：我們是針對堰塞湖可能影響的區域。"],["許委員宇甄：對，我現在指的是樺加沙風災。"],["林署長華慶：對，樺加沙。"],["許委員宇甄：樺加沙風災應該不是只有花蓮嘛！臺東還有屏東應該也是警戒區嘛？"],["林署長華慶：但是農業部是針對馬太鞍堰塞湖的部分發布。"],["許委員宇甄：那請教一下這個問題應該要由誰回答？當時針對紅色警戒，你們發了多少鄉鎮必須要撤離，還有撤離的總人數是多少？如果連現在都沒有人能夠回答問題的話，代表我們的部會在針對這個部分有很大的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關於您提到這次非花蓮堰塞湖，如果是土石流紅色警戒或是黃色警戒的話，是農業部的水保署在負責，這次包括臺東縣政府或屏東縣政府，雖然他們有一點點黃色警戒，但是風雨過了以後，這個黃色警戒就解除了。"],["許委員宇甄：所以等於說你們真正通知需要撤離的只有在花蓮縣，是這樣嗎？"],["林署長華慶：就是針對馬太鞍堰塞湖如果溢流可能影響的區域。"],["許委員宇甄：對，那你就告訴我只有……因為你是農業部，對不對？"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你只針對堰塞湖的部分，但我現在指的是樺加沙風災的時候。"],["林署長華慶：剛剛劉部長有說，在臺東地區有一些……"],["許委員宇甄：因為還不到紅色警戒，所以沒有撤離的必要，是這樣嗎？"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：等於這次只有針對花蓮的部分。"],["林署長華慶：對。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我想請教一下，剛剛講到鳳林鎮長跟光復鄉長都說，短時間內要通知所有的民眾有困難。我們可以看一下，花蓮光復鄉的占地面積有157.1平方公里，鳳林鎮有120.5平方公里，兩個加起來總共277.6平方公里，比整個臺北市都大，在這麼短的時間內要叫鳳林鎮長、光復鄉長去做這樣的通知撤離是有非常大的一個問題，所以他們也提出希望中央能夠來協助。請問一下當時中央跟地方是怎麼溝通的，有沒有來協助他們要怎麼樣大量撤離？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，在9月21日下午的時候，我們邀集花蓮縣政府還有3個鄉鎮公所一起來參加包括臺大還有陽明交大的會議，當時他們就知道我們會把撤離的人數往上調升到1,800戶，後來農業部再追加變成1,837戶，他們已經知道，所以我們在9月22號下午3點第5次工作會報的時候，花蓮縣的副縣長有告訴我們，我們兵力預置的部分總共有中型戰術輪車8輛、救護車1輛、兵力54名、警消跟協作105名、替代役13名……"],["許委員宇甄：他們有沒有要求中央，就是內政部這邊提供協助？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們提供這個部分給他們。"],["許委員宇甄：這樣子他們就可以處理，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：顏副縣長是這樣回復給我們的，所以我們就是按照這個方式，我們的國軍弟兄是第一時間內在光復鄉公所待命。"],["許委員宇甄：照理說，如果提供這樣的協助就能夠預防這樣的災難的話，應該最後不會發生這麼多的問題，所以到底中央跟地方在溝通協調上有什麼樣的狀況，我覺得我們事後也必須要來做一個檢討。還有剛剛大家都一直提到海嘯警報，照理說，當我們發現可能有潰堤的狀況的時候，為什麼不發布海嘯警報？"],["林署長華慶：報告委員，這部分我來說明一下，海嘯警報之前是不適用在堰塞湖的，因為它並不是法定可以使用海嘯警報的範圍。"],["許委員宇甄：所以等於就是拘泥於法令，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：這個其實之前有討論過，也跟相關部會討論過，它欠缺法源，但是我要說明，剛剛蘇巧慧委員也有示範，你前面沒有任何的宣導教育，沒有告訴大家說這是什麼意思，你突然發布，大家還是不知道，所以還是在事前要去跟民眾宣導……"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛您有提到，說之前就有討論過這個問題，但是就不了了之，是嗎？"],["林署長華慶：不是不了了之，因為聲音……"],["許委員宇甄：我們不能每一次都等到災害發生了才去檢討為什麼當時沒有這樣做，為什麼會有一個海嘯警報……"],["林署長華慶：不是，它有細胞簡訊，還有文字……"],["許委員宇甄：那細胞簡訊有發嗎？"],["林署長華慶：有，細胞簡訊有文字，它會比聲音更直觀。"],["許委員宇甄：請問細胞簡訊你們總共發了多少戶？"],["林署長華慶：922之後總共發了8次，就是在堰塞湖……"],["許委員宇甄：總共發了多少戶？你剛剛說造冊的這些通通都有嗎？"],["林署長華慶：只要在光復地區那幾個鄉都收得到，就是在匡列的區通通都收得到。"],["許委員宇甄：好，當時是因為礙於法律關係沒有辦法發布海嘯警報，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["林署長華慶：其他現有的管道都會比海嘯警報更快，因為還有包含村里的廣播……"],["許委員宇甄：其實就像剛剛提的，你聽到防空警報，你就知道趕快要逃難了，同樣的，你聽到海嘯警報，因為有時候不見得他會在看簡訊，所以我覺得針對這個部分確實要馬上去檢討，是不是該用海嘯警報這樣一個方式，不要再拘泥在法令上面，我覺得這個一定要趕快來檢討。"],["林署長華慶：大家認為有用就會增加。"],["許委員宇甄：我們從這次的撤離看起來，其實很多都是人禍的問題，而不完全是天災，也是因為很多一連串的疏忽而發生這樣的問題。","尤其想請教一下劉部長，因為剛剛其實有很多人有提到這次有很多的鏟子志工、鏟子超人來到這邊協助救災，我還記得我們在去年成立了一個全社會防衛韌性委員會，是由總統擔任召集人，去年我們在審查今年度預算的時候也多編了大概四億一千多萬的全社會防衛韌性訓練工作的相關經費，最後通過三億八千多萬。請問一下，針對這個社會防衛韌性委員會，我當時有請教過您，這個社會防衛韌性委員會編列這麼多預算，主要是不是在為救災做準備？你跟我講不是，它的重點在提升救災跟提升應變的能力。請問在這一次這個社會防衛韌性，也就是我們所謂的民力，請問部長，目前有多少民力？"],["劉部長世芳：多少民力？"],["許委員宇甄：對，就是所謂民防的人力。"],["劉部長世芳：你問的是編制內的，還是編制外的？"],["許委員宇甄：編制內多少？編制外多少？"],["劉部長世芳：如果把一般的，包括替代役或者是警消、義警這些全部加在內的話，大約是20萬上下，但是詳細的數字容我再去查一下。"],["許委員宇甄：編制外的呢？"],["劉部長世芳：編制外就是所謂的志工，志工的部分我們現在也有大量在做這方面的訓練，訓練量最大是來自像慈濟基金會，像慈濟基金會這次在災區裡面動員到五千多人次，也是有受到防災士的訓練。"],["許委員宇甄：請問一下部長，您所謂的我們的全社會防衛韌性工作裡面的民力到底是多少？就是您剛剛講的二十幾萬，是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：就是我剛所說的，我們有一些義警、義消、民防全部加在內，還有替代役……"],["許委員宇甄：今年有三億八千多萬的經費，請問一下在這一次馬太鞍堰塞湖的這個災難當中發揮了什麼效果？"],["劉部長世芳：跟委員報告，就是我剛剛跟您提到的，包括慈濟基金會，或者是我們備役或是現役的替代役都有動員……"],["許委員宇甄：慈濟基金會算是你剛剛講的體制外，我現在講的是體制內的。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，是編制內，我講的不是體制內外，是編制外和編制內。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那編制內的民力這一次到底發揮了什麼效果？因為你們去年編了三億八千多萬，就告訴我們說，要用來救災、要用來提升應變的能力，請問這次有發揮什麼樣的作用？因為我們看到的都是鏟子超人、鏟子志工帶六萬多的鏟子志工到現場去幫助大家清淤沙，這個在我的認知裡不該就是民力、不該就是民防的人力應該要加入、應該要去做的，但為什麼現在都是志工在做，我們真正的民力發揮了什麼效果？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們只是沒有把它變成是新聞的焦點……"],["許委員宇甄：好，我在這邊讓你說明是怎麼樣。"],["劉部長世芳：我們這次統計出來，我手上的就是統計資料，我們是3萬1,685，如果是替代役的話，是1,777。"],["許委員宇甄：所以你說到現場去有發揮這樣一個效果？"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們的人……"],["許委員宇甄：那顯然一定是人力不夠，對不對？你剛剛講我們有22萬的民力，為什麼不能從其他地方也調集過來？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛在報告的時候有跟您提到了，有關於替代役的部分，全臺灣除了花蓮以外的22個縣市，我們也都調動了。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但替代役畢竟人數少，我現在指的是，當你發覺需要這麼多志工的時候，應該是要由內政部來調度所有的民力，因為他們是有經過訓練的，鏟子志工雖然有熱忱，可是他們不見得有訓練的能力，所以變成可能會有這樣子的狀況，就是他到現場，他很有熱忱，可是能夠協助的畢竟有限，但是我們平常訓練這麼多的民力，本來就該在這種救災中發揮效果。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們還沒有訓練完畢，不好意思，但是我們已經儘量在調動，而且我們會配合前進協調所來做調動。"],["許委員宇甄：部長，我覺得這個部分一定要好好的事後檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：好。"],["許委員宇甄：我們既然有一個全社會防衛韌性這麼重要的單位，而且民力有這麼多，可是卻沒有在這次發揮效果，我覺得有很大的一個問題，請部長要好好檢討。"],["劉部長世芳：我還是非常肯定這些民力。"],["許委員宇甄：當然，在這個過程中，說實在我們不是在究責，而是在探討未來要怎麼去預防、未來要怎麼樣發揮更好的效果，尤其是在我的觀點裡，這些民力平常就訓練過，在訓練有素的狀況下到現場災區去，應該可以發揮更大的效果。"],["劉部長世芳：他們包括搜救人力都算在內，我們這次救出717人……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，我的意思是，為什麼還需要六萬多的志工到現場？表示人力就是不夠嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：志工自願來幫忙，我們非常感謝。"],["許委員宇甄：如果不是看到現場一片災難、一片狼藉，不會有這麼多人自發性的過去。所以我在這邊跟部長探討，今年度我們一定還要再編列各項有關民防、民力的預算，我們怎麼去真正的讓它發揮效果，我覺得這是重點。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的肯定。"],["許委員宇甄：不好意思，因為我剛剛有請曾主委上來，我只要請教他一句，因為這個地方算原鄉，原住民有很多老人家是不會講漢語的，所以在這次撤離的溝通過程中，內政部有沒有請你們協助來幫忙撤離？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有啊，我們協助的部分就是，我們調了全國的原住民社工員，尤其是會阿美族語的，我們一次就調，希望他們可以做家戶拜訪及慰助金的發放等等，協助了很多，最多的時候是一天到74個人，就是由我們來協助。"],["許委員宇甄：所以這次等於原民會也有協助內政部去進行撤離？"],["曾主任委員智勇：有、有。"],["許委員宇甄：相信這個部分可能也是一個重點，因為那邊是原鄉。","最後再提醒各位，在登山的時候，我記得有一些朋友告訴我，內政部可以參考一下警察局，在這一次樺加沙颱風快要來之前，在9月21日早上8點44分海上颱風警報已經發布之後，警察局、國家公園署就馬上通知要登山的山友要取消登山行程，以維護安全。我覺得不管是國家公園署或警察局都已經知道要料敵從寬的狀況之下，甚至他們在9月18日就已經打電話通知這些山友，因為樺加沙颱風要來，所以你們應該要取消你們的登山行程。也就是說，如果這段時間，我們都能夠以這樣的心情提早的告知、提早的告訴他們要撤離的話，像國家公園署和警察局這樣的話，應該這次的災難就不會這麼嚴重。提供這樣的訊息，要請大家一起來參考，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","接下來請高金素梅委員質詢。在高金素梅委員及李柏毅委員質詢之後，我們再休息。請高金素梅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}