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\"一\", \"start\": 434.34, \"end\": 434.36, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 434.36, \"end\": 434.5, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"許\", \"start\": 434.5, \"end\": 434.6, \"score\": 0.764}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 434.6, \"end\": 434.801, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 434.801, \"end\": 435.121, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 435.121, \"end\": 435.861, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, {\"word\": \"害\", \"start\": 435.861, \"end\": 436.061, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 436.061, \"end\": 436.161, \"score\": 0.688}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"論\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 436.161, \"end\": 436.181, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 436.181, \"end\": 436.361, \"score\": 0.711}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 436.361, \"end\": 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\"度\", \"start\": 767.486, \"end\": 767.506, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 767.506, \"end\": 767.626, \"score\": 0.559}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 767.626, \"end\": 767.646, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 767.646, \"end\": 767.666, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 767.666, \"end\": 767.686, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 783.837, \"end\": 806.523, \"text\": \"我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 783.837, \"end\": 783.937, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"希\", \"start\": 783.937, \"end\": 784.057, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 784.057, \"end\": 784.197, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 784.197, \"end\": 785.257, \"score\": 0.806}, {\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, 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00:00:06,494\n謝謝主席劉部長有請請部長劉友豪\n\n2\n00:00:14,025 --> 00:00:40,318\n部長辛苦啦這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講當然其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的\n\n3\n00:00:41,418 --> 00:00:46,001\n只不過在花蓮山區裡面它累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏舍湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛剛說我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對\n\n4\n00:01:06,557 --> 00:01:22,058\n按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為晏色湖的阻擇機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈\n\n5\n00:01:22,558 --> 00:01:42,863\n事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來\n\n6\n00:01:46,940 --> 00:02:13,410\n這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風\n\n7\n00:02:15,131 --> 00:02:33,042\n或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視\n\n8\n00:02:34,443 --> 00:02:45,314\n那我就簡單來講嘛對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛\n\n9\n00:02:50,018 --> 00:03:15,800\n那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為\n\n10\n00:03:17,062 --> 00:03:38,549\n我剛剛都講了連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總誰來認定這個事情對不對是一直到應變中心因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險應該要疏散可以嗎\n\n11\n00:03:39,465 --> 00:04:04,323\n好像不太行吧報告報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方\n\n12\n00:04:07,285 --> 00:04:27,012\n但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上\n\n13\n00:04:28,132 --> 00:04:52,576\n或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任\n\n14\n00:04:55,837 --> 00:05:11,184\n但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎\n\n15\n00:05:12,888 --> 00:05:25,890\n一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒\n\n16\n00:05:27,236 --> 00:05:44,368\n日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等\n\n17\n00:05:47,590 --> 00:06:11,348\n變成災防就辦公室變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了大家講說我們要趕快\n\n18\n00:06:12,729 --> 00:06:26,685\n統合所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前會末中一事會多頭馬車呢那請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要我請問部長意見\n\n19\n00:06:27,946 --> 00:06:49,565\n報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因\n\n20\n00:06:50,405 --> 00:07:16,762\n災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等\n\n21\n00:07:18,963 --> 00:07:36,891\n但我認為總要討論這是第一第二很多人談災害防救法也好地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三還是部長認為現行機制非常好什麼都不用討論請問是哪一個\n\n22\n00:07:38,681 --> 00:08:04,691\n我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅\n\n23\n00:08:05,371 --> 00:08:25,842\n你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力\n\n24\n00:08:26,522 --> 00:08:43,135\n或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講你在災後善後調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源這我們都非常肯定但問題是現在在談的是前期嘛好你現在講消防署我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力他有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前\n\n25\n00:08:52,930 --> 00:09:08,975\n他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個\n\n26\n00:09:09,515 --> 00:09:29,929\n危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩\n\n27\n00:09:31,790 --> 00:09:37,994\n所以意思不足大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會\n\n28\n00:10:00,447 --> 00:10:06,250\n把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事\n\n29\n00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:46,928\n這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後\n\n30\n00:10:52,190 --> 00:11:16,893\n你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講你都有個但書嘛如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你是做得到的那表示什麼在那個當下恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個\n\n31\n00:11:17,353 --> 00:11:39,403\n那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛\n\n32\n00:11:40,063 --> 00:12:04,965\n所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演\n\n33\n00:12:05,543 --> 00:12:13,876\n報告委員因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急還在戰後的狀態嘛對需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間\n\n34\n00:12:14,862 --> 00:12:40,220\n欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊\n\n35\n00:12:43,843 --> 00:12:47,686\n不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛\n\n36\n00:13:03,837 --> 00:13:26,523\n我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊\n\n37\n00:13:27,796 --> 00:13:49,667\n他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險\n\n38\n00:13:51,148 --> 00:14:12,134\n對保險也好宣導也好這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔這個請無論如何確保他們安全可以嗎可以嗎確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好謝謝\n\n39\n00:14:20,297 --> 00:14:20,886\n謝謝林徐廷委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4189\t6494\t謝謝主席 劉部長有請請部長劉友豪\n14025\t40318\t部長辛苦啦這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講當然其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的\n41418\t46001\t只不過在花蓮山區裡面它累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏舍湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛剛說我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對\n66557\t82058\t按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為晏色湖的阻擇機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈\n82558\t102863\t事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來\n106940\t133410\t這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風\n135131\t153042\t或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視\n154443\t165314\t那我就簡單來講嘛 對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛\n170018\t195800\t那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為\n197062\t218549\t我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎\n219465\t244323\t好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方\n247285\t267012\t但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上\n268132\t292576\t或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任\n295837\t311184\t但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎\n312888\t325890\t一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒\n327236\t344368\t日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等\n347590\t371348\t變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了 大家講說我們要趕快\n372729\t386685\t統合 所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候 事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前 他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前 會末中一事 會多頭馬車呢那請問 這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要 我請問部長意見\n387946\t409565\t報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因\n410405\t436762\t災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等\n438963\t456891\t但我認為總要討論 這是第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個\n458681\t484691\t我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅\n485371\t505842\t你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力\n506522\t523135\t或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講 你在災後 善後 調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源 這我們都非常肯定但問題是 現在在談的是前期嘛好 你現在講消防署 我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力 他有辦法跟農業部 林保署好好溝通 然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛 又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前\n532930\t548975\t他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個\n549515\t569929\t危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩\n571790\t577994\t所以意思不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會\n600447\t606250\t把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事\n624960\t646928\t這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後\n652190\t676893\t你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等 你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講 你都有個但書嘛 如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣 你是做得到的那表示什麼 在那個當下 恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少 確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講 他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此 你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個\n677353\t699403\t那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛\n700063\t724965\t所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演\n725543\t733876\t報告委員 因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急 還在戰後的狀態嘛對 需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間\n734862\t760220\t欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊\n763843\t767686\t不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛\n783837\t806523\t我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊\n807796\t829667\t他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險\n831148\t852134\t對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離 也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔 這個 請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝\n860297\t860886\t謝謝林徐廷委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席 劉部長有請請部長劉友豪\n部長辛苦啦這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講當然其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的\n只不過在花蓮山區裡面它累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏舍湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛剛說我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對\n按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為晏色湖的阻擇機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈\n事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來\n這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風\n或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視\n那我就簡單來講嘛 對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛\n那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為\n我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎\n好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方\n但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上\n或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任\n但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎\n一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒\n日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等\n變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了 大家講說我們要趕快\n統合 所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候 事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前 他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前 會末中一事 會多頭馬車呢那請問 這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要 我請問部長意見\n報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因\n災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等\n但我認為總要討論 這是第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個\n我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅\n你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力\n或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講 你在災後 善後 調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源 這我們都非常肯定但問題是 現在在談的是前期嘛好 你現在講消防署 我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力 他有辦法跟農業部 林保署好好溝通 然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛 又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前\n他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個\n危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩\n所以意思不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會\n把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事\n這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後\n你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等 你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講 你都有個但書嘛 如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣 你是做得到的那表示什麼 在那個當下 恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少 確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講 他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此 你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個\n那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛\n所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演\n報告委員 因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急 還在戰後的狀態嘛對 需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間\n欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊\n不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛\n我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊\n他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險\n對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離 也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔 這個 請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝\n謝謝林徐廷委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.189 --> 00:06.494\n謝謝主席劉部長有請請部長劉友豪\n\n00:14.025 --> 00:40.318\n部長辛苦啦這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講當然其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的\n\n00:41.418 --> 00:46.001\n只不過在花蓮山區裡面它累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏舍湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛剛說我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對\n\n01:06.557 --> 01:22.058\n按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為晏色湖的阻擇機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈\n\n01:22.558 --> 01:42.863\n事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來\n\n01:46.940 --> 02:13.410\n這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風\n\n02:15.131 --> 02:33.042\n或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視\n\n02:34.443 --> 02:45.314\n那我就簡單來講嘛對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛\n\n02:50.018 --> 03:15.800\n那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為\n\n03:17.062 --> 03:38.549\n我剛剛都講了連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總誰來認定這個事情對不對是一直到應變中心因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險應該要疏散可以嗎\n\n03:39.465 --> 04:04.323\n好像不太行吧報告報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方\n\n04:07.285 --> 04:27.012\n但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上\n\n04:28.132 --> 04:52.576\n或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任\n\n04:55.837 --> 05:11.184\n但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎\n\n05:12.888 --> 05:25.890\n一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒\n\n05:27.236 --> 05:44.368\n日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等\n\n05:47.590 --> 06:11.348\n變成災防就辦公室變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了大家講說我們要趕快\n\n06:12.729 --> 06:26.685\n統合所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前會末中一事會多頭馬車呢那請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要我請問部長意見\n\n06:27.946 --> 06:49.565\n報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因\n\n06:50.405 --> 07:16.762\n災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等\n\n07:18.963 --> 07:36.891\n但我認為總要討論這是第一第二很多人談災害防救法也好地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三還是部長認為現行機制非常好什麼都不用討論請問是哪一個\n\n07:38.681 --> 08:04.691\n我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅\n\n08:05.371 --> 08:25.842\n你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力\n\n08:26.522 --> 08:43.135\n或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講你在災後善後調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源這我們都非常肯定但問題是現在在談的是前期嘛好你現在講消防署我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力他有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前\n\n08:52.930 --> 09:08.975\n他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個\n\n09:09.515 --> 09:29.929\n危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩\n\n09:31.790 --> 09:37.994\n所以意思不足大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會\n\n10:00.447 --> 10:06.250\n把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事\n\n10:24.960 --> 10:46.928\n這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後\n\n10:52.190 --> 11:16.893\n你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講你都有個但書嘛如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣你是做得到的那表示什麼在那個當下恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個\n\n11:17.353 --> 11:39.403\n那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛\n\n11:40.063 --> 12:04.965\n所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演\n\n12:05.543 --> 12:13.876\n報告委員因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急還在戰後的狀態嘛對需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間\n\n12:14.862 --> 12:40.220\n欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊\n\n12:43.843 --> 12:47.686\n不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛\n\n13:03.837 --> 13:26.523\n我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊\n\n13:27.796 --> 13:49.667\n他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險\n\n13:51.148 --> 14:12.134\n對保險也好宣導也好這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔這個請無論如何確保他們安全可以嗎可以嗎確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好謝謝\n\n14:20.297 --> 14:20.886\n謝謝林徐廷委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.189,"end":6.494,"text":"謝謝主席 劉部長有請請部長劉友豪"},{"start":14.025,"end":40.318,"text":"部長辛苦啦這個中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設9月21號下午5點半一級開設指揮官是你對不對剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事是化家沙颱風中央災害應變中心災害應變中心嘛對不對我們就講當然其他還有像屏東跟台東他們也都是災區還有高雄所以那個化家沙成立的時候大家都知道化家沙成立他是從南台灣過去的"},{"start":41.418,"end":46.001,"text":"只不過在花蓮山區裡面它累積是大豪雨的雨量所以造成這次晏舍湖的這個事件你不只是這次的指揮官我剛剛聽你回答我們副總召的質詢我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官原因是什麼呢因為在颱風之前你剛剛說我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷在沒有颱風的時候恐怕你也沒有角色沒辦法進場你也沒有辦法做指揮對不對"},{"start":66.557,"end":82.058,"text":"按照這個災害防救法確實沒有錯因為晏色湖的阻擇機關在那個我們災害防救法現在是監測是由農業部來處理所以在這樣一個情況下甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話所以我講你很無奈"},{"start":82.558,"end":102.863,"text":"事實上我們當初也都非常相信都基於善意去相信政府的消息我們有在政論節目上面要評論等等受訪我們一開始也都講一流後來發現是潰壩這其實證明了一件事情就是說你中央整體啊在處理這花家沙的時候有一個多頭馬車的狀況彼此部會之間的認知不一樣所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛對不對你本來"},{"start":106.94,"end":133.41,"text":"這個到底要用一流的模型來做處理還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理來做後續的一些安排恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識對嗎我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分第一個持續監測的任務呢在農業部的林保署其實他們跟相當多的這個學者專家都有做研究但是你說使用的參數如果不一樣譬如說他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風"},{"start":135.131,"end":153.042,"text":"或者是說當時是天氣晴的狀況之下所以說可能會產生溢流那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話可能就會產生潰敵或是潰壩所以這樣的定義啊很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們那我們在中央災害醫院中心成立之後有做了很多作為也可以供大眾來檢視"},{"start":154.443,"end":165.314,"text":"那我就簡單來講嘛 對不對就是說你9月19號這我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導啦他也問了你們內政部裡面的一些官員他說9月19號模型出爐這模型大概就是講說開始有台大團隊裡面有一個危險性比較高的這樣一個版本出來嘛"},{"start":170.018,"end":195.8,"text":"那會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境就是疏散八千人這種比較大規模疏散的高危險料敵重演的這樣一個極端情形意見不同當初因為還沒有颱風所以內政部並不是艷澀湖的主管機關所以沒有辦法做什麼這我覺得他也講的是大實話啦那我今天討論大家都在討論我是覺得在那邊互踢啤酒是沒有什麼意思的啦因為"},{"start":197.062,"end":218.549,"text":"我剛剛都講了 連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難就是說誰來抓總 誰來認定這個事情 對不對是一直到應變中心 因為有一個颱風來了你才能夠進場指揮 在此前大家莫衷一試那何況地方政府呢 對不對地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部 跳過你內政部他能夠進行發布說紅色警戒嗎我覺得他很危險 應該要疏散 可以嗎"},{"start":219.465,"end":244.323,"text":"好像不太行吧報告 報告委員我想您中間略過了一項包括所有的學者專家他們對於驗色虎會發生什麼的狀況其實每個人意見也都不一樣是的那我們能夠做整合就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官我一定用最高的標準來處理所以我講也就是為什麼說在所以我講他們所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方"},{"start":247.285,"end":267.012,"text":"但是我覺得政治上的責任我們做一下簡單的釐清中央跟地方這一次處理的毫無默契這已經是個大家都知道的事實我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思但是我不希望大家是用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情從法理上來講即便地方制度法災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行可是從政治的實務上"},{"start":268.132,"end":292.576,"text":"或者是法理上他也沒辦法跳過中央就像我剛剛講的他沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒對不對如果他真的要疏散這麼多人恐怕花蓮縣政府也好更不用講公所了他難道能夠指揮國軍嗎客觀上來講有很多不可能嘛災害防救法來講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫但為什麼他叫地區災防計畫表示他有上位計畫嘛也就是說面對重大災害這個東西當然是應該由中央來抓種來做主導嘛你有多大的權力負多大的責任"},{"start":295.837,"end":311.184,"text":"但是到此為止我覺得不要再互推或有默契不佳或有若干疏漏但是不要互相甩鍋已經沒有意義了本期今天的質詢主要是要探討制度上的調整部長美國啊如果面對重大災情的時候是誰來抓總你知道嗎"},{"start":312.888,"end":325.89,"text":"一般來講但是州政府但是如果非常嚴重的跨州或者是相當大像譬如說上次的Katrina的部分的話大概就是由美國的FEMAFEMA嘛對不對他有聯邦情事務管理署FEMA對不對日本勒"},{"start":327.236,"end":344.368,"text":"日本他們現在的我提醒部長沒關係日本有叫做防災擔當大臣手下300個專門公務員他們也是最近才剛剛未來準備要成立防災廳嘛對不對好那回到中華民國的體制裡面我們過去啊災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的實體業務單位後來因為診病等等"},{"start":347.59,"end":371.348,"text":"變成災防就辦公室 變任務型編組現在是二十幾個人 等於是幕僚單位這樣一個定位人員非常少 也沒有預算權當然不同的制度有不同的優缺點你的變成辦公室變幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計可是你靈活的設計你不能翻車啊 對不對我講靈活的設計有什麼好處啊比如說紀子維官表現還不錯但是紀子維官之所以表現不錯是因為已經出事了 大家講說我們要趕快"},{"start":372.729,"end":386.685,"text":"統合 所以你的統合力出來啦統合力出來的時候 事情可以順利處理可是為什麼此前 他沒有辦法發揮功能為什麼此前 會末中一事 會多頭馬車呢那請問 這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要 我請問部長意見"},{"start":387.946,"end":409.565,"text":"報告委員當然我們都有很多精進的空間但是我們現在要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國的FEMA的制度上面其實還會有很多檢討的地方比如說現在的FEMA他們每一年的預算就高達是一兆元而且呢他們FEMA是分成十個區域那事實上呢我們台灣的這個災防機制呢就是有些災因"},{"start":410.405,"end":436.762,"text":"災害的原因根據災因來做處理我想您現在所說的部分就是在這個災害之前的這些監測到底有沒有可能跨部會或者是由一個單位來處理你解釋很多你現在講的那個災防的部分大概都是屬於防災的應變人民現在或者是大家關心這個事情會想要聽到的是我們中央接下來的答案怎麼做三個方向第一也許我們要開始災害專責機關的討論你剛剛講可能有預算的困擾等等"},{"start":438.963,"end":456.891,"text":"但我認為總要討論 這是第一第二 很多人談災害防救法也好 地方自助法也好可能要針對這樣的事情因為顯然現行的機制在這個馬太安夜色湖的事件他講的就是失靈嘛 對不對所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛第三 還是部長認為現行機制非常好 什麼都不用討論 請問是哪一個"},{"start":458.681,"end":484.691,"text":"我想第三者是完全不可能我跟委員報告一下在這之後在我們還沒有修正這個災害防救法的必要的討論之前第一個我有要求我們的消防署是否先成立有12個原住民的搜救隊這一次其實最大的量能是在很多搜救隊全台灣的搜救隊到現場去搜救到717位的人讓他可以脫離生命上面的威脅"},{"start":485.371,"end":505.842,"text":"你還是在針對現在的災害做善後我們今天在國會討論是要未來制度的調整我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答我剛剛跟您提到了就是我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊因為這是抑制災部落大部分都是在原民鄉這第一個然後第二個我希望那個消防署他在編制上面還可以做考量把剛剛所說的包括這個防災的人力"},{"start":506.522,"end":523.135,"text":"或者是包括未來的這些比較需要經濟的部分的把它放到裡面去我跟你講 你在災後 善後 調度大家都非常努力包含民力的資源 這我們都非常肯定但問題是 現在在談的是前期嘛好 你現在講消防署 我成立更多的搜救隊我經濟的人力 他有辦法跟農業部 林保署好好溝通 然後來下一次驗射壺的事情可以好好處理嗎恐怕很困難嘛 又回到我們剛開始開頭的問題嘛也就是在災害本身發生之前"},{"start":532.93,"end":548.975,"text":"他還是會出現一個多頭馬車的狀況誰都不聽誰的嘛所以大家才會想你是不是用修法的方式或者成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛對不對我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛了解委員的用心但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法第一個"},{"start":549.515,"end":569.929,"text":"危機意識不夠不管是在什麼地方像農業部的林保署他們已經做過好多次的這個不管是細胞簡訊或者是做實災演習但是到後來他們覺得說狼來了你發布越多的紅色警戒他覺得狼來了 狼來了那也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分你如果真的要提細胞簡訊那大家就會問你為什麼簡訊寫的是一流不是潰壩"},{"start":571.79,"end":577.994,"text":"所以意思不足 大家都有精進的空間嘛他們有做社區的演練但是社區演練上面很多人會覺得是紙上談兵那既然是紙上談兵所以在這次我們包括跟紀連城政委都有協助希望說跟花蓮縣政府一起來做這一次之後我們有沒有緊急疏散撤離的機制那這個應變計畫呢除了縣政府 鄉鎮公所還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候不要只有做兵棋推演而是真的要做疏散撤離這樣子才會"},{"start":600.447,"end":606.25,"text":"把大家的危機意識提升這個就是我們現在法律的調整是一回事可是事實上真正在執行的時候你必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行上面他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決因為這需要審慎處理如果做大規模的改變的話現在對於防災機制反而不一定是一件好事"},{"start":624.96,"end":646.928,"text":"這個大家都在討論說突然之間撤離的人數變成8000多人對不對如果今天是完全內政部抓總你有辦法在36小時之內把8000多人全部撤離嗎如果國軍他們要求的人力增加的話我想是可以做得到而且不是36小時報告委員我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分一共是43個小時我現在跟你談論實務的問題也就是說你下達了這樣子的一個必須要撤離8000人的指示之後"},{"start":652.19,"end":676.893,"text":"你才開始聯絡國防部調度國軍現有的人力等等 你做不做得到嘛你剛剛講 你都有個但書嘛 如果國軍人力怎樣怎樣怎樣如果怎麼樣怎麼樣 你是做得到的那表示什麼 在那個當下 恐怕是做不到的對不對國軍已經在現場待命但是國軍人數需要多少 確實需要鄉鎮公所報上來才知道客觀來講 他就是沒有辦法處理嘛也就是因為如此 你們才跟縣政府都一起做了有所謂的垂直避難的這樣子的一個"},{"start":677.353,"end":699.403,"text":"那是不得不為本席願意理解啦因為它真的很難嘛那既然中央都不見得做得到地方政府也不可能做到所以我才在講所有的機制的設計應該是事前上我們怎麼樣控制更多的時間讓你有比較充裕的時間來去做撤離等等調度等等的事前預防工作嘛所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛"},{"start":700.063,"end":724.965,"text":"所以部長你剛剛回答了很多說我們在搜救在後續在當下怎麼樣做調度這都很好大家都努力了但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的部長你雖然你講你覺得第三條也就是現行機制很好是不可能的但是第一或第二不管是單位的設計或者是法律的修正你能不能給更明確的答案呢我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的一個目標讓大家可以比較安心說這樣悲劇不會再次重演"},{"start":725.543,"end":733.876,"text":"報告委員 因為我們現在仍然在屬於這個收容安置跟處理這個緊急 還在戰後的狀態嘛對 需要有一點時間讓我們再做檢討改進你需要多少時間"},{"start":734.862,"end":760.22,"text":"欸鮑威我真的現在沒辦法告訴你因為你現在所說的驗色湖不是我們所知道的狀況因為驗色湖啊我也聽一位美國的朋友講到就是說這個9100萬方的這個驗色湖恐怕現在目前是最大的一個驗色湖那是非常危險的一件事情嘛但是他因為沖刷下來的水量很大所以任何人工包括這個馬太安溪的整治的部分啊那個疏浚的部分呢都不如第一次沖刷下來3100萬方那麼大因為整個的整治計畫只有不是啊"},{"start":763.843,"end":767.686,"text":"不要再談個案我們今天之所以要討論制度就不希望頭通衣頭腳通衣腳嘛對不對制度的設計請你也要責成你內部手下也是兵多將廣農業部這些都聽著了對不對這麼多的好手討論一下制度的設計行政院應該要擔起責任因為那個又來了我們要提早處理各度的分工問題嘛"},{"start":783.837,"end":806.523,"text":"我希望先從這個驗澀湖因為驗澀湖不會只有一個可能未來也有可能行政你該做的事你要接著做啦但是請你在你們內部內閣討論會議的時候把今天這個質詢的內容要讓行政院長來做了解啦就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的請他趕快提出方案好不好那最後我這個後面用書面來做補充我提醒一下那挖土機超人是本席選區的選民我們都覺得很難過啊"},{"start":807.796,"end":829.667,"text":"他是台灣的英雄是沒有錯的但是我要提醒現在你在做很多的善後工作還是有非常多熱情的台灣鄉親啊非常熱血投入了救災的志工行列這個政府能力有限民力無窮但是第一不能反客為主啊你不能反過來依賴民力第二個既然他們要進場協助我們的政府還是有點點責任嘛要確保他們的安全所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險"},{"start":831.148,"end":852.134,"text":"對 保險也好 宣導也好 這些東西請你提一個計畫然後趕快執行 可以嗎包括疏散撤離計畫 我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離 也會把它放到裡面去那其實這是最困難的部分 因為不容易通知到他們現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也會隨時再改變所以喔 這個 請無論如何確保他們安全 可以嗎可以嗎 確保他們安全好不好我們盡全力來幫忙好 謝謝"},{"start":860.297,"end":860.886,"text":"謝謝林徐廷委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":835,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時24分）謝謝主席，劉部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了。中央災害應變中心9月21號早上8點半二級開設，9月21號下午5點半一級開設，指揮官是你，對不對？剛剛你略顯無奈的回答了這件事。"],["劉部長世芳：是，是樺加沙颱風的中央災害應變中心。"],["牛委員煦庭：災害應變中心嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：樺加沙颱風，因為其他還有像屏東跟臺東，它們也都是災區，還有高雄，所以樺加沙成立的時候，大家都知道樺加沙是從南臺灣過去的，只不過在花蓮山區裡面，它累積是大豪雨的雨量，所以造成這次堰塞湖的事件。"],["牛委員煦庭：你不只是這次的指揮官，我剛剛聽你回答我們傅總召的質詢，我也感覺你是一個無奈的指揮官，原因是什麼呢？因為在颱風之前，我根據你剛剛答詢的內容跟你的報告做的判斷，在沒有颱風的時候，恐怕你也沒有角色，沒辦法進場，你也沒有辦法做指揮，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是，按照災害防救法確實沒有錯，因為堰塞湖的主責機關依災害防救法，監測是由農業部來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：是農業部的兩個署嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以在這樣的情況下，甚至你連是溢流還是潰壩，你恐怕都沒有辦法說真話，所以我講你很無奈，事實上我們當初也都非常相信，都基於善意去相信政府的消息，我們在政論節目上要評論、受訪等等，我們一開始也都講溢流，後來發現是潰壩，這其實證明了一件事情，就是中央整體在處理樺加沙的時候，有多頭馬車的狀況，彼此部會之間的認知不一樣，所以其實錯過了一個時間嘛！對不對？到底要用溢流的模型來做處理，還是要用潰壩的模型來做處理、做後續的一些安排，恐怕你們中央各部會都沒有辦法順利的達成共識，對嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您這樣子講有一點太簡化中央在處理的部分，第一個，持續監測的任務在農業部林保署，其實他們跟相當多的學者專家都有做研究，但是使用的參數如果不一樣，譬如他們使用的參數是沒有這個颱風，或者當時是天氣晴的狀況之下，所以可能會產生溢流，那溢流如果是沖刷力度過大的話，可能就會產生潰堤或是潰壩，所以這樣的定義，很明確的部分確實要依賴學者專家提供給我們。我們中央災害應變中心成立之後，有做了很多作為，也可以供大眾來檢視。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，那我就簡單來講，你在9月19號，這個我是引述天下雜誌的一個報導，他也問了內政部裡面的一些官員，他說9月19號模型出爐，這模型大概就講說開始有臺大團隊，裡面有一個危險性比較高的版本出來，會議上不同的部會對於要不要採取極端情境，就是疏散8,000人這種比較大規模的疏散，高危險、料敵從嚴的極端情形，意見不同。當初因為還沒有颱風，內政部並不是堰塞湖的主管機關，所以沒有辦法做什麼，我覺得他講的也是大實話啦！那今天大家都在討論，我是覺得在那邊互踢皮球是沒有什麼意思的啦！因為我剛剛都講了，連你們中央機關彼此之間都很難，就是說誰來抓總、誰來認定這個事情，對不對？是一直到了應變中心，因為有一個颱風來了，你才能夠進場指揮，在此前大家莫衷一是，何況地方政府呢？對不對？地方政府難道能夠跳過農業部、跳過你內政部，他們逕行發布紅色警戒嗎？我覺得它很危險，應該要疏散，可以嗎？好像不太行吧？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您中間略過了一項，包括所有的學者專家，他們對於堰塞湖會發生什麼的狀況，其實每個人意見也都不一樣。"],["牛委員煦庭：是的。"],["劉部長世芳：那我們能夠做整合，就是站在中央災害應變中心指揮官，我一定用最高的標準來處理，也就是為什麼在農業部所提供的部分到中央災害應變中心的……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我講你是個無奈的指揮官，這是我待會要跟你討論制度上調整的地方，但是我覺得政治上的責任，我們做一下簡單的釐清。中央跟地方這次處理得毫無默契，這已經是一個大家都知道的事實，我們再去掉在這個裡面沒什麼意思，但是我不希望大家用去脈絡化的角度來看這件事情。從法理上來講，即便地方制度法、災害防救法有講地方政府要負責執行，可是從政治的實務上或法理上，它也沒辦法跳過中央，就像我剛剛講的，它沒有辦法自行發布紅色警戒，對不對？如果它真的要疏散這麼多人，恐怕花蓮縣政府也好，更不用講公所了，它難道能夠指揮國軍嗎？客觀上來講，有很多不可能嘛！災害防救法有講地方要寫所謂的災防計畫，但為什麼它叫地區災防計畫？表示它有上位計畫嘛！也就是說面對重大災害，當然是應該由中央來抓總、來做主導，你有多大的權力負多大的責任，但是到此為止，我覺得不要再互推，或有默契不佳、或有若干疏漏，但是不要互相甩鍋，已經沒有意義了。本席今天的質詢，主要是要探討制度上的調整，部長，美國如果面對重大災情的時候，是誰來抓總，您知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：一般來講是州政府，但是如果非常嚴重的跨州，或者是相當大的，譬如說像上次Katrina的部分的話，大概就是由美國的FEMA來解決。"],["牛委員煦庭：FEMA嘛！聯邦緊急事務管理署（FEMA），日本呢？"],["劉部長世芳：日本他們現在的……"],["牛委員煦庭：我提醒部長，沒關係，日本叫做「防災擔當大臣」，手下有300個專門的公務員。"],["劉部長世芳：他們也是最近才剛剛成立的。"],["牛委員煦庭：未來準備要成立防災廳，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：回到中華民國的體制裡面，過去的災害防救委員會是一個有預算權的事業業務單位，後來因為整併等等，變成災害防救辦公室，變任務型編組，現在有二十幾個人，等於是幕僚單位這樣的一個定位，其人員非常少，也沒有預算權。","當然，不同的制度有不同的優缺點，把辦公室變成幕僚單位叫做靈活的設計，可是靈活的設計也不能翻車啊，對不對？我講的靈活設計有時候是有好處的，比如季指揮官就表現得還不錯，但是季指揮官之所以表現得不錯是因為已經出事了，所以大家才講我們要趕快統合，所以你的統合力就出來了。統合力出來之後事情可以順利處理，可是為什麼此前它沒有辦法發揮功能？為什麼此前會莫衷一是、會多頭馬車呢？請問這樣的一個制度有沒有修正或調整的必要？我請問部長的意見。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，當然我們都有很多精進的空間，但是我們要把現在的災防體系完全嫁接在美國FEMA的制度上面，其實還會有很多要檢討的地方，比如說現在的FEMA每一年的預算就高達1兆元，而且他們的FEMA是分成10個區域。事實上臺灣的災防機制就是要根據災因（災害的原因）來處理，我想您現在所說的部分，就是在發生這個災害之前的這些監測，到底有沒有可能跨部會，或者是由一個單位來處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：對嘛！我……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，你聽我講完。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長解釋了很多，我們也都聽到了……"],["劉部長世芳：你現在講的那個災防的部分，大概都是屬於防災的應變，這跟之前的預測……"],["牛委員煦庭：人民現在或關心這個事情的大家會想要聽到的是，中央接下來打算怎麼做？有三個方向，第一，也許我們要開始做災害專責機關的討論，你剛剛有講，可能有預算的困擾等等，但我認為總是要討論，這第一點；第二，很多人不論是談災害防救法也好，地方制度法也好，可能要針對這樣的事情……顯然現行的機制對馬太鞍堰塞湖的事件來講，就是失靈，對不對？所以也許在法律上應該有修法的必要嘛！第三，還是部長認為現行的機制非常好，什麼都不用討論，請問是哪一個？"],["劉部長世芳：我想第三是完全不可能的。"],["牛委員煦庭：完全不可能嘛，很好！"],["劉部長世芳：不過我跟委員報告一下，在這之後，在我們還沒有修正災害防救法做必要的討論之前，第一個，我有要求消防署是否先成立12個原住民的搜救隊，這一次最大的量能其實是在很多的搜救隊，全臺灣的搜救隊到現場有搜救到717個人，讓他們可以脫離生命上面的威脅……"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你還是在針對現在的災害做善後，但我們今天在國會討論的是針對未來制度的調整，我希望聽到多一點這樣子的回答。"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，我剛剛跟您提到了，我希望我們跟原民會可以成立原住民的搜救隊，因為這是一直在部落，大部分都是在原民鄉，這第一個；第二個，我希望在消防署的編制上面還可以做考量，把剛剛所說的，包括防災的人力，或者是包括未來比較需要精進的部分，把它放到裡面去。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，災後的善後調度大家都非常努力，包含民力的支援，這些我們都非常肯定，但問題是，現在在談的是前期。好，你剛剛講消防署要成立更多的搜救隊，有精進的人力才有辦法跟農業部林保署好好溝通，然後下一次有堰塞湖的事情就可以好好處理嗎？恐怕很困難嘛！所以又回到我們剛剛開頭的問題。也就是在災害本身發生之前還是會出現多頭馬車的狀況，誰都不聽誰的，所以大家才會想，是不是可以用修法的方式或者可以成立專責機關的方式來做事權的統一嘛，對不對？我們要聽到的是這樣的一個方向嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我了解委員的用心，但是我也跟委員提一下我自己的看法。第一個，危機意識不夠，不管是在什麼地方，像農業部林保署就已經做過好多次不管是細胞簡訊，或者是做實災演習，但是到後來他們覺得變成像是「狼來了」。發布越多的紅色警戒，就讓人覺得是狼來了、狼來了，這也是另外一種在社會溝通上面不夠的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果真的要提細胞簡訊，那大家就會問你，為什麼簡訊寫的是「溢流」而不是「潰壩」？"],["劉部長世芳：不是……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以意識不足，大家都有精進的空間嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：他們有做社區的演練，但是社區演練對很多人來講會覺得是紙上談兵，既然是紙上談兵……所以這次我們包括跟季連成政委都有協助，希望能跟花蓮縣政府一起來做。在這一次之後，我們有沒有緊急疏散、撤離的機制？這個應變計畫除了在縣政府、鄉鎮公所，還有中央的部分大家都要同意的時候，不要只做兵棋推演，而是真正要做疏散、撤離，這樣子才會提升大家的危機意識。"],["牛委員煦庭：我在……"],["劉部長世芳：這個就是我們現在……"],["牛委員煦庭：你這些都還是在討論災害發生時要怎麼處理嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，法律的調整是一回事，可是事實上，真正在執行的時候，必須要能夠尊重在第一線執行的人，根據他們所碰到的困難一步一步來解決……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們花一點時間討論一下……"],["劉部長世芳：這需要審慎處理，如果做大規模改變的話，現在對於防災機制反而不一定是件好事。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，大家都在討論，突然之間撤離的人數變成八千多人，對不對？如果今天完全由內政部抓總，你有辦法在36小時之內把八千多人全部撤離嗎？講實話！"],["劉部長世芳：如果對國軍人力的要求能增加的話，我想是可以做得到的，而且不是36小時，報告委員，我們從21號下午3點到真正造成這個撤離的部分，一共是43個小時。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在是跟你談論實務的問題，也就是你下達了一個必須要撤離8,000人的指示之後，才開始聯絡國防部，調度國軍現有的人力等等，你做不做得到？你剛剛講，你都有個但書嘛，如果國軍人力怎樣、怎樣，如果怎麼樣、怎麼樣，你是做得到的。那表示什麼？在那個當下恐怕是做不到的，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，國軍已經在現場待命了，但是國軍人數需要多少，確實需要由鄉（鎮）公所報上來才知道。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊，人數不夠嘛！所以客觀來講，它就是沒有辦法處理嘛！也就是因為如此，你們才跟縣政府一起做了所謂垂直避難這樣的一個……那是不得不為，本席願意理解啦！因為它真的很難嘛！","既然中央都不見得做得到，地方政府也不可能做到，所以我才講，對於所有機制的設計，應該是事前我們要怎麼樣空出更多的時間，讓人有比較充裕的時間去做撤離、調度等等的事前預防工作，所以我們才在討論制度上的設計要怎麼修正嘛！部長剛剛回答了很多，說我們在搜救、在後續、在當下要怎麼樣做調度，這些都很好，大家都努力了，但是事前的機制設計是比較重要的。","部長，雖然你覺得第三，也就是現行機制很好，那是不可能的，但是第一或第二，不管是單位的設計或法律的修正，你能不能給出更明確的答案呢？我們有多少時間要完成怎麼樣的目標，讓大家可以比較安心地說這樣悲劇不會再次重演？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，因為我們現在仍然屬於收容安置跟處理各種緊急……"],["牛委員煦庭：還在善後的狀態嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，還需要一點時間，讓我們再做檢討改進。"],["牛委員煦庭：你需要多少時間？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我現在真的沒辦法告訴你，因為你現在所說的堰塞湖，不是我們所知道的狀況。對於堰塞湖，我也聽一位美國的朋友講到，9,100萬立方公尺的堰塞湖恐怕是目前最大的一個堰塞湖。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是非常危險的一件事情。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，那是因為沖刷下來的水量很大，所以任何人工，包括整治馬太鞍溪整治的部分、疏濬的部分都不如第一次沖刷下來3,100萬立方公尺那麼大，因為整個整治計畫只處理五、六十萬立方公尺而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，不要再談個案了，我們今天之所以要討論制度，就是不希望頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，對不對？有關制度的設計，請你也要責成……內政部手下也是兵多將廣，農業部也都聽著了，對不對？有這麼多的好手，討論一下制度的設計，行政院應該要擔起責任，因為這個又要來了，我們要提早處理各部的分工問題。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我希望先從這個堰塞湖開始，因為堰塞湖不會只有一個，未來也有可能形成堰塞湖的整個災救防治……"],["牛委員煦庭：你該做的事要接著做，但是請你在你們內閣討論會議時，要把今天這個質詢的內容讓行政院長了解，就是說制度上的設計是有其必要的，請他趕快提出方案，好不好？","最後，我之後會用書面來做補充。我提醒一下，挖土機超人是本席選區的選民，我們都覺得很難過，他是臺灣的英雄沒錯，但是我要提醒，現在你在做很多的善後工作，還是有非常多熱情的臺灣鄉親，非常熱血地投入了救災的志工行列。政府的能力有限而民力無窮，但是第一，不能反客為主，你不能反過來依賴民力；第二個，既然他們要進場協助，我們的政府還是有一點點責任要確保他們的安全。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們昨天就開始處理有關平安險的事，讓他們掃QR Code……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，保險也好、宣導也好，這些東西請你提一個計畫，然後趕快執行，可以嗎？我做一個提醒。"],["劉部長世芳：包括疏散撤離計畫，我們都會把在場的志工如何疏散撤離放到裡面去……"],["牛委員煦庭：請你無論如何都要確保……"],["劉部長世芳：其實這是最困難的部分，因為不容易通知到他們。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在善後的難度跟狀況其實也是隨時在改變，所以無論如何請確保他們安全，可以嗎？確保他們的安全好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們盡全力來幫忙。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請李柏毅委員質詢，待會等張智倫委員質詢完之後我們再來休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}