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{\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 67.928, \"end\": 68.108, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 68.108, \"end\": 68.308, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"拍\", \"start\": 68.308, \"end\": 68.568, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 68.568, \"end\": 68.588, \"score\": 0.378}]}, {\"start\": 69.415, \"end\": 84.072, \"text\": \"航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"航\", \"start\": 69.415, \"end\": 69.676, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 69.676, \"end\": 70.416, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"圖\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 70.416, \"end\": 70.637, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 70.637, \"end\": 70.737, \"score\": 0.635}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 70.737, \"end\": 71.097, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"專\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 71.097, \"end\": 72.439, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"諮\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, 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{\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 81.389, \"end\": 81.449, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 81.449, \"end\": 81.909, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 81.909, \"end\": 82.029, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 82.029, \"end\": 82.17, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 82.17, \"end\": 82.27, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 82.27, \"end\": 82.63, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 82.63, \"end\": 82.85, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 82.85, \"end\": 83.431, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 83.431, \"end\": 83.852, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"慘\"}, {\"word\": \"烈\", \"start\": 83.852, \"end\": 84.052, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 84.052, \"end\": 84.072, \"score\": 0.917}]}, {\"start\": 84.5, \"end\": 105.813, \"text\": \"那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 84.5, \"end\": 84.66, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 84.66, \"end\": 84.74, \"score\": 0.485}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 84.74, \"end\": 85.06, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"擔\"}, {\"word\": \"心\", \"start\": 85.06, \"end\": 85.18, \"score\": 0.725}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 85.18, \"end\": 85.28, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 85.28, \"end\": 85.861, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 85.861, \"end\": 86.201, \"score\": 0.676}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 86.201, \"end\": 86.301, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 86.301, \"end\": 86.841, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 86.841, \"end\": 87.742, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, 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\"下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 106.778, \"end\": 106.958, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"游\", \"start\": 106.958, \"end\": 107.118, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 107.118, \"end\": 107.259, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"密\", \"start\": 107.259, \"end\": 107.479, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"集\", \"start\": 107.479, \"end\": 107.639, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 107.639, \"end\": 107.819, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"口\", \"start\": 107.819, \"end\": 107.979, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 107.979, \"end\": 108.12, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 108.12, \"end\": 109.761, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"驗\"}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 109.761, \"end\": 110.002, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"湖\", \"start\": 110.002, \"end\": 110.402, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 112.725, \"end\": 112.885, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 112.885, \"end\": 113.065, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 113.065, \"end\": 113.245, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 113.245, \"end\": 113.566, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 113.566, \"end\": 114.146, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 114.146, \"end\": 114.246, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 114.246, \"end\": 114.487, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 114.487, \"end\": 114.787, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"花\", \"start\": 114.787, \"end\": 115.208, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"蓮\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 115.208, \"end\": 115.328, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 115.328, \"end\": 115.588, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"紅\"}, 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\"end\": 707.785, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 707.785, \"end\": 707.885, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 707.885, \"end\": 707.945, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 707.945, \"end\": 708.025, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"休\", \"start\": 708.025, \"end\": 708.045, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 708.045, \"end\": 708.065, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:14,197\n休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長委員好杜次長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰舍湖及馬太安溪堰舍湖相關的問題\n\n2\n00:00:27,438 --> 00:00:44,829\n那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪艷澀湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看是現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險\n\n3\n00:00:46,138 --> 00:01:08,588\n那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席也有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照\n\n4\n00:01:09,415 --> 00:01:24,072\n航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的\n\n5\n00:01:24,500 --> 00:01:45,813\n那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質\n\n6\n00:01:46,778 --> 00:02:05,839\n下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙\n\n7\n00:02:06,460 --> 00:02:22,824\n所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的\n\n8\n00:02:23,284 --> 00:02:46,672\n那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%\n\n9\n00:02:48,519 --> 00:03:03,472\n那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況\n\n10\n00:03:04,173 --> 00:03:24,490\n那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園\n\n11\n00:03:26,078 --> 00:03:48,050\n所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控\n\n12\n00:03:48,527 --> 00:04:03,023\n好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說\n\n13\n00:04:04,830 --> 00:04:19,393\n就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底\n\n14\n00:04:32,615 --> 00:05:01,614\n才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵\n\n15\n00:05:02,715 --> 00:05:31,899\n包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程\n\n16\n00:05:33,005 --> 00:05:51,990\n這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是\n\n17\n00:05:53,427 --> 00:06:18,486\n因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說\n\n18\n00:06:19,164 --> 00:06:30,582\n因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說\n\n19\n00:06:31,823 --> 00:06:53,113\n我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好謝謝應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做謝謝好謝謝那我們是請劉部長\n\n20\n00:07:00,301 --> 00:07:21,378\n好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任\n\n21\n00:07:21,894 --> 00:07:46,690\n所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號\n\n22\n00:07:47,952 --> 00:08:09,102\n在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差\n\n23\n00:08:10,110 --> 00:08:30,401\n我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們\n\n24\n00:08:31,201 --> 00:08:43,424\n那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數實居人數就是6843\n\n25\n00:09:03,622 --> 00:09:24,431\n是所以6,843人這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是不是報告委員應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人\n\n26\n00:09:25,171 --> 00:09:39,078\n是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上\n\n27\n00:09:41,019 --> 00:10:08,830\n建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓\n\n28\n00:10:09,710 --> 00:10:39,277\n一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去\n\n29\n00:10:39,917 --> 00:11:01,815\n徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期\n\n30\n00:11:03,470 --> 00:11:26,327\n報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在\n\n31\n00:11:28,628 --> 00:11:48,065\n歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t14197\t休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長委員好杜次長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰舍湖及馬太安溪堰舍湖相關的問題\n27438\t44829\t那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪艷澀湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看是現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險\n46138\t68588\t那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席也有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照\n69415\t84072\t航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的\n84500\t105813\t那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質\n106778\t125839\t下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙\n126460\t142824\t所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的\n143284\t166672\t那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%\n168519\t183472\t那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況\n184173\t204490\t那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園\n206078\t228050\t所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控\n228527\t243023\t好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說\n244830\t259393\t就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底\n272615\t301614\t才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵\n302715\t331899\t包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程\n333005\t351990\t這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是\n353427\t378486\t因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說\n379164\t390582\t因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說\n391823\t413113\t我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長\n420301\t441378\t好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任\n441894\t466690\t所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號\n467952\t489102\t在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差\n490110\t510401\t我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們\n511201\t523424\t那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢 這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數 實居人數就是6843\n543622\t564431\t是 所以6,843人 這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的 您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是 不是 報告委員 應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人\n565171\t579078\t是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上\n581019\t608830\t建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓\n609710\t639277\t一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去\n639917\t661815\t徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期\n663470\t686327\t報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在\n688628\t708065\t歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息\n","txt":"休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長委員好杜次長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰舍湖及馬太安溪堰舍湖相關的問題\n那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪艷澀湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看是現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險\n那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席也有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照\n航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的\n那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質\n下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙\n所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的\n那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%\n那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況\n那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園\n所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控\n好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說\n就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底\n才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵\n包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程\n這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是\n因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說\n因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說\n我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長\n好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任\n所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號\n在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差\n我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們\n那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢 這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數 實居人數就是6843\n是 所以6,843人 這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的 您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是 不是 報告委員 應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人\n是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上\n建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓\n一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去\n徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期\n報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在\n歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:14.197\n休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長委員好杜次長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰舍湖及馬太安溪堰舍湖相關的問題\n\n00:27.438 --> 00:44.829\n那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪艷澀湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看是現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險\n\n00:46.138 --> 01:08.588\n那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席也有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照\n\n01:09.415 --> 01:24.072\n航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的\n\n01:24.500 --> 01:45.813\n那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質\n\n01:46.778 --> 02:05.839\n下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙\n\n02:06.460 --> 02:22.824\n所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的\n\n02:23.284 --> 02:46.672\n那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%\n\n02:48.519 --> 03:03.472\n那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況\n\n03:04.173 --> 03:24.490\n那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園\n\n03:26.078 --> 03:48.050\n所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控\n\n03:48.527 --> 04:03.023\n好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說\n\n04:04.830 --> 04:19.393\n就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底\n\n04:32.615 --> 05:01.614\n才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵\n\n05:02.715 --> 05:31.899\n包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程\n\n05:33.005 --> 05:51.990\n這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是\n\n05:53.427 --> 06:18.486\n因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說\n\n06:19.164 --> 06:30.582\n因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說\n\n06:31.823 --> 06:53.113\n我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好謝謝應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做謝謝好謝謝那我們是請劉部長\n\n07:00.301 --> 07:21.378\n好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任\n\n07:21.894 --> 07:46.690\n所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號\n\n07:47.952 --> 08:09.102\n在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差\n\n08:10.110 --> 08:30.401\n我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們\n\n08:31.201 --> 08:43.424\n那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數實居人數就是6843\n\n09:03.622 --> 09:24.431\n是所以6,843人這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是不是報告委員應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人\n\n09:25.171 --> 09:39.078\n是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上\n\n09:41.019 --> 10:08.830\n建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓\n\n10:09.710 --> 10:39.277\n一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去\n\n10:39.917 --> 11:01.815\n徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期\n\n11:03.470 --> 11:26.327\n報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在\n\n11:28.628 --> 11:48.065\n歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":14.197,"text":"休息五分鐘好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是不是先請農業部杜次長請農業部次長委員好杜次長好今天我們大家討論這個有關於全國堰舍湖及馬太安溪堰舍湖相關的問題"},{"start":27.438,"end":44.829,"text":"那根據新聞報導這個馬太安溪艷澀湖目前的水位已經下降可是現在依然是紅色警戒那這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心的問題看是現在好像已經解決的危機為什麼還是潛藏還是紅色警戒還是潛藏致命的這個風險"},{"start":46.138,"end":68.588,"text":"那是不是代表說我們現在第一個就是這些艷澀湖的壩體的結構的問題第一個是還沒有解決那如果下雨的話這個潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在那本席也有讀了一下我們農業部的報告就從7月26艷澀湖成立了以後我們27號成立應變小組那也進行了很多的不管是拍照"},{"start":69.415,"end":84.072,"text":"航照圖還有一些專家諮詢會議市場的說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練這些雖然很辛苦我們也要肯定可是大家也知道說現在目前的結果是很慘烈的"},{"start":84.5,"end":105.813,"text":"那我們在擔心的是說我們現在的監測跟會議是沒有辦法把它給轉化成有效的防災的行動所以我想要請教杜次長的是不是我們現在櫃部有沒有完成全國整體的眼色湖的總體的檢驗我們現在有多少個眼色湖哪些像馬太安溪一樣屬於脆弱地質"},{"start":106.778,"end":125.839,"text":"下游有密集人口的高風險驗色湖是不是可以請您回答好 謝謝委員關心那這個事情就分兩件來談第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒第二個就是全國的驗色湖的監控那就花蓮的紅色警戒來看其實如果要解除紅色警戒特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙"},{"start":126.46,"end":142.824,"text":"所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件第一個是霸體的本身一定要再繼續監測有沒有在潰體的危險第二個是核道本身的清疏因為如果再有下來的時候到底要怎麼確認夠不夠能夠把它洩漏出去第三個是核體的加高那第四個是最重要的"},{"start":143.284,"end":166.672,"text":"那個整個撤離的疏散計畫因為現在要如果萬一再發生有這個紅色警戒有真的有溢流下來或是有水不管是水土沙都好那裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1837戶而是有很多的志工人員所以目前監測的範圍雖然水量已經減少了大概是原先水體的1.7%"},{"start":168.519,"end":183.472,"text":"那雖然目前看起來壩體是穩當但是邊坡其實有時候如果有地震還是會滑落那目前的水位監測在河道監測其實它水位並沒有上升表示說這邊的溢流還是在正常在走並沒有淹塞的情況"},{"start":184.173,"end":204.49,"text":"那旁邊的土堤也加高了那最重要就是現在在等我們花蓮縣政府的這個疏散計畫如果整個確定好之後那這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整這是剛剛就委員的第一個問題那第二個有那個全國的這個驗射或者監測我們有做一個全國的地圖地資的盤點那目前應該只有在桃園"},{"start":206.078,"end":228.05,"text":"所以還有全台灣還有哪一邊是在國有鄰地的部分其實我們包括從航測從衛星從那個對照除了現在驗射五次範圍還有桃園新竹新竹還有桃園跟新竹還有就對了新竹還有一個是新竹抱歉我小吃新竹嗎新竹還有幾有幾個有一個新竹一位嗎對那目前是安定的狀況並沒有危險但是還是在我們監控"},{"start":228.527,"end":243.023,"text":"好那我想要請拜託農業部就對這次馬太安溪的這個事件是不是對於有些高風險的菸攝糊除了監測以外還有沒有其他更積極的作為其實對一般民眾而言是不是說"},{"start":244.83,"end":259.393,"text":"就我們花蓮馬太安溪的艷澀湖有沒有可能去做引流或在事前可以做一些防救的一個措施因為我看到你們今天報告裡寫說在9月底其實在8月28你們有召開一個協調會確認在9月底前是可以輸進60萬噸的總量那這個時間點是不是當時是評估上是發生什麼問題為什麼沒有把它提前拉前因為這是7月多的事情為什麼到9月底"},{"start":272.615,"end":301.614,"text":"才決定要有這樣子的目標應該這樣說其實監測一直在做而且監測是必要的然後我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估這是第一點第二個整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面所以我們從7月26號確認馬太安西建設無作包括不管是農業部自己本身經濟部水利署或者是交通部的公路局台鐵"},{"start":302.715,"end":331.899,"text":"包括台電包括NCC包括花蓮縣政府包括那三個受影響最大的鄉鎮其實都已經列在我們的這個所謂的利害關係人的溝通所以把所有的狀況讓大家知道這是第一點那第二點才是說那要怎麼樣來減災這曾經也有人講說至少我請教一下有沒有機會當時啦因為當時這個已經是會議的結論了嘛當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提比如說在八月底就來做這樣的工程"},{"start":333.005,"end":351.99,"text":"這當中其實有人提過要不要來爆破那個驗測壺要不要來做洪溪要不要來做挖管埋管其實這些都不可行所以所有方案其實我們都有考慮這是第一點那第二點清書的部分其實也有加速在進行包括土坡堤的加強防護這都有在進行中是"},{"start":353.427,"end":378.486,"text":"因為當然我們看到這本報告我們當然想說如果當時的這個你們做的8月28號的會議如果可以往提前的話其實是不是就可以避免這樣子的災害所以我想大概也是情境發生的狀況在當下的情境是這樣走那當然在特別這次因為所以我還是要拜託就是各部會的溝通跟教育就像剛剛很多委員有提到的是不是應該要提前或者是說"},{"start":379.164,"end":390.582,"text":"因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經有非常多有做跟我們政府單位去做一個提醒那發生這樣的事情我們還是覺得非常的難過啦那就是說"},{"start":391.823,"end":413.113,"text":"我們現在就是說包含剛剛你特別有提到的說新竹還有一個艷澀湖的一個部分所以我們要讓民眾基本上也有知的權利所以就是說未來再通知民眾讓他們有一個危機意識的部分也希望說政府單位這邊可以積極來作為好不好好 謝謝 應該要提醒應該要預作準備的我們一定全力來做 謝謝好 謝謝 那我們是請劉部長"},{"start":420.301,"end":441.378,"text":"好謝謝部長那第二個我想要請教內政部長就是因為你剛你也是指揮官我再請教你有關於撤離的一個問題那這個今天內政部有一個18頁的報告有講說你們這樣中央是克盡職守可是一開頭就引用地方制度法跟防災法就是強調說疏散撤離是地方政府的責任"},{"start":441.894,"end":466.69,"text":"所以我們在擔心的就是說中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是有出了問題在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到說9月21號下午的6點之後中央災害應變中心的指揮官就是您有明確指示要求花蓮縣政府針對這個1837戶執行預防性疏散撤離那這個是命令嘛對不對那可是在9月23號"},{"start":467.952,"end":489.102,"text":"在下午在潰堤的前一刻可是花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到說有5239位的民眾是採用垂直的避難那我想要請教一下這個5239戶的民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的這個預防性的疏散撤離這中間有沒有一個落差"},{"start":490.11,"end":510.401,"text":"我不清楚那個委員所指的落差是什麼第一個每一個工作匯報跟工作匯報當中有很多的通知包括園民會包括民政系統或是警政系統所以我們在尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的這個撤離跟那個依親跟收容安置的人數的話他們所提的人數我們就相信他們"},{"start":511.201,"end":523.424,"text":"那那個剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難的人數在我所手上所得到的資料不是你剛所那個數字那你可以提一下5348是多少 一千5348人數跟戶數不一樣 報告委員我們在9月21號下午的時候是1837戶但是呢 這個人數套疊出來包括那個花蓮縣的這個副縣長告訴我們說他們總共的人數 實居人數就是6843"},{"start":543.622,"end":564.431,"text":"是 所以6,843人 這個在網頁上面都有當時您所說的 您這個下命令的部分是要求要垂直避難要5,348人不是 不是 報告委員 應該是這樣子就是說你可以避難或是收容你可以用收容安置依親或垂直避難都可以但是這些有多少人"},{"start":565.171,"end":579.078,"text":"是由縣市或者是說由鄉鎮區公所他們來確認但是我們有特別提到因為你所說的這個垂直避難或者垂直撤離啊按照聯合國或是按照花蓮縣他們所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上"},{"start":581.019,"end":608.83,"text":"建築安全結構無虞的狀況之下可以採取垂直避難也就是說在緊急狀況之下很多居民呢他們如果來不及要疏散到比較遠的地方可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話往上跑我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候當然是往上跑好這個呢部分呢大概在演練上面的有一些大家疏忽的地方所以這一次左林岸的這個18位左右大概都是在一樓"},{"start":609.71,"end":639.277,"text":"一樓的空間而且呢大一部分大概都是年紀比較大也就是說他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人那我們所了解好像第一個很多他的家屬說都沒有聽到那剛剛也也也也討論過沒有聽到了譬如說光復相公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況可是我們在第一時間內警消就趕快出動車輛來做大聲的這個廣播那所以這些呢都是我們未來在做精進跟檢討的時候呢需要去"},{"start":639.917,"end":661.815,"text":"徹底的了解一下現場的狀況才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整所以部長我跟您請教因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官是應該也收到很多的消息啊那我想要請教就是說如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報說是5000多人使用這個垂直撤離的時候你會不會覺得這個人數是有偏多的還是這是符合你的預期"},{"start":663.47,"end":686.327,"text":"報告委員我們無法說這符合我的預期因為我們當時下令的時候只能告訴他有什麼樣的方式能夠到最安全然後最快的方式那他決定的方式因為在花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央裡面他們就有一個是屬於垂直避難的方式也就是說他們是肯認這個也是屬於避難的方式的一種但是他選擇什麼樣的方式的話可能在"},{"start":688.628,"end":708.065,"text":"歷次的好包括做兵棋推演或是做其他的疏散撤離的時候就要提到這個部分或者上第一線在協助疏散撤離的民民政或者社政的人人的工作同仁了解這樣狀況才能夠在短時間之內的搶救大部分的生命財產的安全好好謝謝部長好謝謝我們先休息"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":950,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時49分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員，大家早。我們是不是先請農業部杜次長。"],["主席：請農業部杜次長。"],["杜次長文珍：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：杜次長好。我們今天要討論有關於全國堰塞湖及馬太鞍溪堰塞湖的相關問題，根據新聞報導，馬太鞍溪堰塞湖目前的水位已經下降，可是現在依然是紅色警戒，這句話凸顯我們今天討論很多的核心問題，看似好像已經解決的危機，為什麼還是紅色警戒，還是潛藏致命的風險，是不是代表這些堰塞湖的壩體結構問題，第一個是還沒有解決，如果下雨的話，潰堤的風險是不是還是繼續存在？本席也有讀了農業部的報告，從7月26日堰塞湖形成以後，我們27日就成立應變小組，也進行了很多的作為，不管是拍航照圖、召開專家諮詢會議、市場說明會或者是細胞廣播的演練，這些工作雖然很辛苦，我們也要給予肯定。","可是大家也知道目前的結果是很慘烈的，我們擔心的是現在的監測和會議沒有辦法把它轉化成有效的防災行動，所以我想要請教杜次長，現在貴部有沒有完成全國堰塞湖的總體檢驗，我們現在有多少個堰塞湖？哪些像馬太鞍溪一樣是屬於脆弱地質、且下游有密集人口的高風險堰塞湖，是不是可以請你回答？"],["杜次長文珍：謝謝委員關心，這個事情分兩部分來談，第一個是花蓮現在的紅色警戒；第二個是全國堰塞湖的監控。就花蓮的紅色警戒來看，如果要解除紅色警戒，特別是現在有很多志工在裡面幫忙，所以要解除的話其實有幾個條件，第一個是壩體本身一定要繼續監測有沒有再潰堤的危險。第二個是河道本身的清疏，如果再有水下來的時候，要怎麼確認能不能夠把它洩流出去。第三個是河堤的加高。第四個最重要的是整個撤離的疏散計畫，如果再發生紅色警戒，真的溢流下來，不管是水、土、沙都好，裡面要保全的人數就不是只有原來的1,837戶，而是有很多的志工人員。","就目前監測的範圍來看，雖然水量已經減少了，大概是原先水體的1.7%，目前看起來壩體是穩當的，但是如果有地震，邊坡其實還是會滑落。至於目前的水位監測，在河道的監測其實水位並沒有上升，表示這邊的溢流還是正常在走，並沒有堰塞的情況，旁邊的土堤也加高了，最重要的是現在在等花蓮縣政府的疏散計畫，如果整個確定好之後，這個紅色警戒才有可能做調整，這是回答剛剛委員的第一個問題。","第二個，關於全國堰塞湖的監測，我們有做一個全國的地圖、地資盤點，目前應該只有在桃園……"],["張委員智倫：所以全臺灣還有哪一邊是在監測？"],["杜次長文珍：在國有林地的部分，其實包括從航測、從衛星、從對照，除了現在的堰塞湖之外，還有新竹……"],["張委員智倫：桃園跟新竹還有就對了。"],["杜次長文珍：新竹還有一個，抱歉，我講錯了！"],["張委員智倫：新竹有幾個？"],["杜次長文珍：有一個，目前是安定的狀況，並沒有危險，但是還是在我們監控機制下。"],["張委員智倫：我想要拜託農業部，針對這次馬太鞍溪的事件，對於有些高風險的堰塞湖除了監測以外，還有沒有其他更積極的作為？其實對一般民眾而言，就花蓮馬太鞍溪的堰塞湖有沒有可能去做引流，或在事前可以做一些防救的措施？因為我看到你們今天的報告也提到，你們在8月28日有召開一個協調會，確認在9月底前可以疏濬60萬噸總量，這個時間點當時評估上發生了什麼問題，為什麼沒有把它提前？因為這是7月多的事情，為什麼到9月底才決定要有這樣子的目標？"],["杜次長文珍：應該這樣說，其實監測一直在做，而且監測是必要的，我們也有專家團隊就整個因素來評估，這是第一點。第二個，整個救災計畫或是減災計畫或是防範計畫，其實重要的是所有的利害關係人都要在這裡面，我們從7月26日確認馬太鞍溪堰塞湖形成之後，包括不管是農業部自己本身、經濟部水利署或者是交通部公路局、臺鐵，包括台電、NCC、花蓮縣政府以及3個受影響最大的鄉鎮，其實都已經列在所謂利害關係人的溝通裡面，所以我們把所有的狀況讓大家知道，這是第一點。","第二點才是要怎麼樣減災，曾經也有人講要不要爆破堰塞湖。"],["張委員智倫：次長，我請教一下，因為這個已經是會議的結論，當時有沒有可能把這個時間再往前提，比如在8月底就做這樣的工程？"],["杜次長文珍：這當中其實也有人提過要不要爆破堰塞湖，要不要來做虹吸，要不要來做挖管、埋管，其實這些都不可行，所有的方案我們都有考慮，這是第一點。第二點，清疏的部分也有加速在進行，包括土坡堤的加強防護，這都有在進行中。"],["張委員智倫：因為我們看到這本報告當然會想說，你們8月28日的會議結論如果可以往前提的話，是不是就可以避免這樣的災害發生？"],["杜次長文珍：這大概也是情境發生的狀況，在當下的情境是這樣走，特別是這次因為有樺加莎颱風，所以情形會不一樣。"],["張委員智倫：我還是要拜託各部會的溝通跟教育，就像剛剛很多委員有提到的，是不是應該要提前，因為很多民意代表其實在事前的時候就已經多次跟政府單位做一個提醒，發生這樣的事情，我們還是覺得非常的難過，包含剛剛你特別有提到的，新竹還有一個堰塞湖，所以基本上我們要讓民眾有知的權利，未來在通知民眾，讓他們有一個危機意識的部分，也希望政府單位這邊可以積極作為，好不好？"],["杜次長文珍：好，謝謝，該要提醒、該要預做準備的，我們一定全力來做，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝次長。我們是不是請劉部長？"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長，我想要請教內政部長的是，因為你也是指揮官，我要請教你有關於撤離的問題，今天內政部有提出一份18頁的報告，其中提到你們中央克盡職守，可是一開頭就引用地方制度法及防災法，強調疏散撤離是地方政府的責任，所以我們在擔心的是中央跟地方的溝通上是不是還是出了問題？在內政部的報告裡面有特別提到，9月21日下午6點中央災害應變中心指揮官也就是你有明確指示，要求花蓮縣政府針對這1,837戶執行預防性疏散撤離，這個是命令，對不對？可是在9月23日下午潰堤的前一刻，花蓮縣政府的報告裡面提到有5,239位民眾是採用垂直避難。我想要請教一下，這5,239位民眾使用的垂直避難跟你當時所明確指示的預防性疏散撤離，這中間有沒有落差？"],["劉部長世芳：我不清楚委員所指的落差是什麼，第一個，每一個工作會報和工作會報當中有很多的通知，包括原民會、民政系統或是警政系統，所以我們尊重每個鄉鎮公所所提出來的撤離、依親及收容安置人數，他們所提的人數我們就相信，剛剛委員所提到的垂直避難人數，在我手上所得到的資料不是你說的那個數字。"],["張委員智倫：你可以提一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我的是5,348人，人數和戶數不一樣，報告委員，我們在9月21日下午的時候是1,837戶，但是這個人數套疊出來，包括花蓮縣副縣長告訴我們，他們總共的實居人數是6,843人。"],["張委員智倫：所以當時……"],["劉部長世芳：這個在網頁上面都有。"],["張委員智倫：當時你所說的、你下命令的部分是要求垂直避難有5,348人？"],["劉部長世芳：不是、不是，報告委員，應該是這樣子，就是你可以避難或是收容，可以用收容安置、依親或垂直避難，都可以，但是這些有多少人是由縣市或由鄉鎮區公所來確認。我們有特別提到，因為你所說的垂直避難或是垂直撤離，按照聯合國或是花蓮縣所提出來的垂直避難是要兩層樓以上，建築安全、結構無虞的狀況之下，可以採取垂直避難，也就是在緊急狀況之下，很多居民如果來不及疏散到比較遠的地方，可能車子或者是人力上面有困難的話可以往上跑。我想大家都知道如果有海嘯來的時候，當然是往上跑，這個部分在演練上面有一些大家疏忽的地方，所以這一次所罹難的18位左右，大概都是在1樓的空間，而且很一大部分大概都是年紀比較大，也就是說，他們是屬於第一波要做預防性疏散撤離的時候被忽略掉的人。據我們所了解的，第一個，很多家屬都說沒有聽到，剛剛也討論過，沒有聽到的，譬如光復鄉公所說他們廣播系統出了狀況，可是在第一時間警消就已經趕快出動車輛大聲廣播，所以我們未來在精進跟檢討的時候需要去澈底地了解現場的狀況，才能讓下一次的疏散撤離計畫更完整。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我跟你請教，因為我覺得你是這次的指揮官，應該也收到很多的消息。我想要請教，如果你當時在應變中心看到花蓮縣政府回報有五千多人使用垂直撤離的時候，你會不會覺得這個人數是偏多的，還是這符合你的預期？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們無法說這符合我的預期，因為我們當時下令的時候，只能告訴他什麼樣的方式能夠最安全，也是最快的方式，因為花蓮縣政府每兩年要報到中央，他們有一個就是屬於垂直避難的方式，也就是說，他們肯認這也是屬於避難方式的一種，但是他要選擇什麼樣的方式，可能在歷次的，包括做兵棋推演或做其他疏散撤離的時候，就要提到這個部分，或者讓第一線在協助疏散撤離的民政或社政工作同仁了解這樣的狀況，才能夠在短時間之內搶救大部分民眾的生命、財產安全。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。我們先休息。","休息（12時1分）","繼續開會（12時11分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩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Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}