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\"跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 225.942, \"end\": 226.302, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 226.302, \"end\": 227.002, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 227.002, \"end\": 228.282, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"億\"}, {\"word\": \"元\", \"start\": 228.282, \"end\": 228.743, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 228.743, \"end\": 229.323, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 229.323, \"end\": 229.583, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 229.583, \"end\": 229.743, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"半\", \"start\": 229.743, \"end\": 229.983, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 229.983, \"end\": 230.103, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 882.183, \"end\": 882.363, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"入\", \"start\": 882.363, \"end\": 882.623, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"食\", \"start\": 882.623, \"end\": 882.803, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"品\", \"start\": 882.803, \"end\": 883.363, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"製\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 883.363, \"end\": 883.563, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 883.563, \"end\": 883.823, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 883.823, \"end\": 884.043, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"學\", \"start\": 884.043, \"end\": 884.243, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 884.243, \"end\": 884.543, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 884.543, \"end\": 884.664, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 884.664, \"end\": 884.884, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 884.884, \"end\": 885.884, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 885.884, \"end\": 885.964, \"score\": 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905.502, \"text\": \"那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 889.105, \"end\": 889.225, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 889.225, \"end\": 890.006, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 890.006, \"end\": 890.146, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 890.146, \"end\": 890.426, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 890.426, \"end\": 890.607, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 890.607, \"end\": 891.708, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"卻\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 891.708, \"end\": 891.828, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 891.828, \"end\": 891.968, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"克\", \"start\": 891.968, \"end\": 892.228, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 892.228, \"end\": 892.408, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"喔\", 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所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 948.588, \"end\": 948.708, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 948.708, \"end\": 948.828, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 948.828, \"end\": 949.909, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"風\"}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 949.909, \"end\": 950.069, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"物\", \"start\": 950.069, \"end\": 950.429, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 950.429, \"end\": 950.589, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 950.589, \"end\": 950.729, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 950.729, \"end\": 950.909, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 950.909, \"end\": 951.109, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 951.109, \"end\": 951.229, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 951.229, \"end\": 951.329, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 951.329, 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\"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,867 --> 00:00:39,069\n謝謝主席請部長還有署長請部長還有署長趙偉好部長好想要請教一下因為這個食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年呢有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷\n\n2\n00:00:39,870 --> 00:00:59,255\n那在地方衛生局的方面呢只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人還遠遠不足嘛\n\n3\n00:01:00,051 --> 00:01:28,030\n那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那\n\n4\n00:01:28,650 --> 00:01:57,750\n所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象\n\n5\n00:01:58,930 --> 00:02:23,389\n然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對用邊境的部分來\n\n6\n00:02:26,671 --> 00:02:52,756\n協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣\n\n7\n00:02:53,536 --> 00:03:15,009\n對因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對\n\n8\n00:03:17,730 --> 00:03:41,480\n好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金\n\n9\n00:03:45,942 --> 00:04:11,627\n跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人\n\n10\n00:04:13,448 --> 00:04:28,902\n那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低\n\n11\n00:04:30,483 --> 00:04:58,073\n3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下\n\n12\n00:04:58,553 --> 00:05:20,255\n那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置\n\n13\n00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:36,945\n那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據\n\n14\n00:05:38,266 --> 00:05:59,808\n那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎\n\n15\n00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:30,199\n那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP\n\n16\n00:06:32,060 --> 00:06:50,261\n那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升\n\n17\n00:06:50,922 --> 00:07:04,769\n他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這\n\n18\n00:07:06,050 --> 00:07:28,119\n所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些\n\n19\n00:07:29,940 --> 00:07:49,209\n風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數\n\n20\n00:07:51,630 --> 00:08:15,662\n所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長\n\n21\n00:08:17,664 --> 00:08:32,538\n把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的一定會的謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度\n\n22\n00:08:33,463 --> 00:08:51,815\n那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零\n\n23\n00:08:53,456 --> 00:09:12,650\n好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善\n\n24\n00:09:14,729 --> 00:09:39,522\n委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的\n\n25\n00:09:40,242 --> 00:09:58,116\n的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的\n\n26\n00:09:59,147 --> 00:10:24,954\n那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議\n\n27\n00:10:25,794 --> 00:10:43,784\n那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼\n\n28\n00:10:47,543 --> 00:11:12,735\n目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下\n\n29\n00:11:13,675 --> 00:11:28,756\n在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好\n\n30\n00:11:30,030 --> 00:11:44,990\n那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的\n\n31\n00:11:45,868 --> 00:12:09,740\n我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以\n\n32\n00:12:10,660 --> 00:12:30,036\n那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討\n\n33\n00:12:30,737 --> 00:12:55,653\n對因為我就是要說你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候哇已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法請這部分要請部長積極主動\n\n34\n00:12:58,175 --> 00:13:15,346\n跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況\n\n35\n00:13:16,827 --> 00:13:38,979\n再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對\n\n36\n00:13:39,899 --> 00:13:58,156\n所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣\n\n37\n00:14:01,821 --> 00:14:27,798\n這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是\n\n38\n00:14:28,658 --> 00:14:47,885\n可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對\n\n39\n00:14:49,105 --> 00:15:05,502\n那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔\n\n40\n00:15:07,378 --> 00:15:21,769\n所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題\n\n41\n00:15:23,790 --> 00:15:47,628\n所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物\n\n42\n00:15:48,588 --> 00:16:03,973\n就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會\n\n43\n00:16:04,753 --> 00:16:23,827\n就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間\n\n44\n00:16:25,908 --> 00:16:40,204\n我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說\n\n45\n00:16:41,145 --> 00:17:02,534\n這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11867\t39069\t謝謝主席請部長還有署長請部長還有署長趙偉好部長好想要請教一下因為這個食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年呢有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷\n39870\t59255\t那在地方衛生局的方面呢 只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊 都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人 還遠遠不足嘛\n60051\t88030\t那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那\n88650\t117750\t所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象\n118930\t143389\t然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對 用邊境的部分來\n146671\t172756\t協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣\n173536\t195009\t對 因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對\n197730\t221480\t好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金\n225942\t251627\t跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人\n253448\t268902\t那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低\n270483\t298073\t3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下\n298553\t320255\t那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置\n320996\t336945\t那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據\n338266\t359808\t那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎\n362210\t390199\t那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP\n392060\t410261\t那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升\n410922\t424769\t他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這\n426050\t448119\t所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的 剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些\n449940\t469209\t風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數\n471630\t495662\t所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長\n497664\t512538\t把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度\n513463\t531815\t那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零\n533456\t552650\t好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善\n554729\t579522\t委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的\n580242\t598116\t的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的\n599147\t624954\t那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議\n625794\t643784\t那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼\n647543\t672735\t目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下\n673675\t688756\t在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好\n690030\t704990\t那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的\n705868\t729740\t我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢 實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以\n730660\t750036\t那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討\n750737\t775653\t對 因為我就是要說 你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的 而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉 那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候 哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他 難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法 請這部分要請部長積極主動\n778175\t795346\t跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況\n796827\t818979\t再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對\n819899\t838156\t所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣\n841821\t867798\t這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是\n868658\t887885\t可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對\n889105\t905502\t那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔\n907378\t921769\t所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題\n923790\t947628\t所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物\n948588\t963973\t就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會\n964753\t983827\t就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間\n985908\t1000204\t我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說\n1001145\t1022534\t這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席請部長還有署長請部長還有署長趙偉好部長好想要請教一下因為這個食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年呢有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷\n那在地方衛生局的方面呢 只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊 都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人 還遠遠不足嘛\n那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那\n所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象\n然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對 用邊境的部分來\n協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣\n對 因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對\n好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金\n跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人\n那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低\n3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下\n那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置\n那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據\n那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎\n那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP\n那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升\n他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這\n所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的 剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些\n風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數\n所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長\n把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度\n那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零\n好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善\n委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的\n的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的\n那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議\n那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼\n目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下\n在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好\n那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的\n我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢 實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以\n那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討\n對 因為我就是要說 你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的 而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉 那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候 哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他 難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法 請這部分要請部長積極主動\n跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況\n再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對\n所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣\n這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是\n可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對\n那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔\n所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題\n所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物\n就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會\n就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間\n我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說\n這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.867 --> 00:39.069\n謝謝主席請部長還有署長請部長還有署長趙偉好部長好想要請教一下因為這個食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年呢有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷\n\n00:39.870 --> 00:59.255\n那在地方衛生局的方面呢只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人還遠遠不足嘛\n\n01:00.051 --> 01:28.030\n那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那\n\n01:28.650 --> 01:57.750\n所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象\n\n01:58.930 --> 02:23.389\n然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對用邊境的部分來\n\n02:26.671 --> 02:52.756\n協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣\n\n02:53.536 --> 03:15.009\n對因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對\n\n03:17.730 --> 03:41.480\n好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金\n\n03:45.942 --> 04:11.627\n跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人\n\n04:13.448 --> 04:28.902\n那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低\n\n04:30.483 --> 04:58.073\n3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下\n\n04:58.553 --> 05:20.255\n那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置\n\n05:20.996 --> 05:36.945\n那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據\n\n05:38.266 --> 05:59.808\n那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎\n\n06:02.210 --> 06:30.199\n那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP\n\n06:32.060 --> 06:50.261\n那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升\n\n06:50.922 --> 07:04.769\n他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這\n\n07:06.050 --> 07:28.119\n所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些\n\n07:29.940 --> 07:49.209\n風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數\n\n07:51.630 --> 08:15.662\n所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長\n\n08:17.664 --> 08:32.538\n把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的一定會的謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度\n\n08:33.463 --> 08:51.815\n那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零\n\n08:53.456 --> 09:12.650\n好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善\n\n09:14.729 --> 09:39.522\n委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的\n\n09:40.242 --> 09:58.116\n的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的\n\n09:59.147 --> 10:24.954\n那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議\n\n10:25.794 --> 10:43.784\n那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼\n\n10:47.543 --> 11:12.735\n目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下\n\n11:13.675 --> 11:28.756\n在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好\n\n11:30.030 --> 11:44.990\n那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的\n\n11:45.868 --> 12:09.740\n我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以\n\n12:10.660 --> 12:30.036\n那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討\n\n12:30.737 --> 12:55.653\n對因為我就是要說你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候哇已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法請這部分要請部長積極主動\n\n12:58.175 --> 13:15.346\n跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況\n\n13:16.827 --> 13:38.979\n再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對\n\n13:39.899 --> 13:58.156\n所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣\n\n14:01.821 --> 14:27.798\n這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是\n\n14:28.658 --> 14:47.885\n可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對\n\n14:49.105 --> 15:05.502\n那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔\n\n15:07.378 --> 15:21.769\n所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題\n\n15:23.790 --> 15:47.628\n所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物\n\n15:48.588 --> 16:03.973\n就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會\n\n16:04.753 --> 16:23.827\n就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間\n\n16:25.908 --> 16:40.204\n我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說\n\n16:41.145 --> 17:02.534\n這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.867,"end":39.069,"text":"謝謝主席請部長還有署長請部長還有署長趙偉好部長好想要請教一下因為這個食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人對不對但每年呢有超過大概76萬批的進口食品的集合需求的存在所以以目前的總數量來講就已經是超過負荷"},{"start":39.87,"end":59.255,"text":"那在地方衛生局的方面呢 只要屬這個申請行政院的計畫所以你們於114年補助地方政府的衛生局稽查人力是45人但是如果在22個縣市啊 都平均分配的情況之下每一個縣市大概就只增加兩個人 還遠遠不足嘛"},{"start":60.051,"end":88.03,"text":"那針對地方稽查量能不足的問題我們也可以理解說原額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題那因此也想要問部長是不是能夠透過這個是不是以人口或是大宗食品產品或是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求是不是應該是這樣不是用均分的方式可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力那"},{"start":88.65,"end":117.75,"text":"所以我想這個部分要給你一個思考那等一下也再回應那另外就是說食藥署近期也公告明年起啊你們食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2000萬以上未達3000萬的業者嘛對不對那未來可能還會再降要擴大你要去查核的對象這個本席我認為很棒我也樂觀其成但是用現實面來講現在的這個人力都已經不足了你要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象"},{"start":118.93,"end":143.389,"text":"然後而且確保你擴大了這些監管然後不會有稀釋現有稽查能量的問題然後要怎麼樣更加精準的才可以稽查到不然你永遠用不夠好 跟我們報告當然我們分成兩邊如果是邊境查驗的部分現在導入了這個AI對 就是用這個用這個人工智慧去預期食品偵查的那個模組對 用邊境的部分來"},{"start":146.671,"end":172.756,"text":"協助這個人力上不足的問題更精準的去做這個分批抽驗那至於地方剛剛委員人力的分配我們確實也是按照分組也是分了四個組按照他的人口比如說台北新北是屬於第一組六都的就第一組人口數比較多所以是用風險導向去做一個人力配置不是均分的問題還有那個專案集合的建樹去分配這樣"},{"start":173.536,"end":195.009,"text":"對 因為本學想要凸顯的重點就是你的人力永遠不足所以你一定要想辦法包括你說導入AI也好或者是你人力怎麼精準的分配讓它風險導向讓你的這個資源分布是更加精準這是本學要提醒另外還有一個問題就是你行政院補助地方這個113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫高達10億對不對"},{"start":197.73,"end":221.48,"text":"好但是沒有強制要求說各縣市的建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的是沒有說我們要怎麼看你這10億花下去到底用在哪裡成果如何那報告內容也沒有說明喔那就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價說這筆經費的投入的成果所以也想要請問一下我們食安辦食安辦獎勵金"},{"start":225.942,"end":251.627,"text":"跟委員報告這個10億元裡面分一半跟一半那事實上各部會都有指標上百項的不會是您講的說沒指標所以是很細的指標我們報告裡面沒有看到這個指標所以你們的指標是什麼會後提供就是說KPI就是說他得要去集合幾個項目幾人是達到我們所要求的然後每個部會給的或是他要聘人"},{"start":253.448,"end":268.902,"text":"那請這個會後提供指標給我們因為目前的報告沒有看到因為畢竟這個預算用在哪裡到底成效是什麼這個很重要那再來就是剛剛我們也有討論剛剛委員還有指教說我們把那個資本額降低"},{"start":270.483,"end":298.073,"text":"3000萬降到2000萬逐年的降低這個是會牽涉到他的這個廠商應負擔的責任就是我們過去在3000萬以上一方面他要自行建立他的檢驗能量同時也要有這個外部的集合第三方的查證所以他的責任比較高那所以我們過去是用3000萬做門檻現在我們要逐步的把它往下"},{"start":298.553,"end":320.255,"text":"那等於是讓這個我們三級品管裡面的第一級跟第二級的試用對象可以更擴大對因為我看了一下數據大概是會增加3000多家業者啊你這樣子你的這個精準或者是去查驗的這些工作的負荷量就會增大所以這個部分也要精準的安排一下你的配置"},{"start":320.996,"end":336.945,"text":"那再來食藥署建制的這個預期食品的偵測模組那你們也耗資近2800萬然後你是由這個藉由蒐集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統嘛然後等著國際的食安資料庫結合這個數據"},{"start":338.266,"end":359.808,"text":"那也結合說國內的食品雲的這些資料進行大數據的分析好看起來就是所謂的AI很厲害這樣喔那對於高風險的產品進行監控然後又該署又配合了112年的中秋複合式的專案五項的稽查專案喔那你用該模組你算出了77家的潛在風險業者對不對是嗎"},{"start":362.21,"end":390.199,"text":"那經該署的查核就是你們查到的結果你們實際僅去積查了17家也就是說你用這麼複雜的系統你說你找出77家潛在的風險業者可是你只去查了17家只到這個清單的三成我想這個利用率應該有待加強而且你們最終積查出來的結果僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範就是GHP"},{"start":392.06,"end":410.261,"text":"那尚無業者使用或者是儲存預期食品情勢但同期間你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者預期食品的違規案件數達到73家所以顯示什麼顯示說你們現在的這套系統要怎麼樣提升"},{"start":410.922,"end":424.769,"text":"他的精準度以及你們既然你弄出來你有沒有就是把這些廠都查完你才知道說那我現在建設的這些數據或者是我這些模組產出來清單是精準的嗎這部分可不可以請這個署長回答一下委員這"},{"start":426.05,"end":448.119,"text":"所有數字都非常非常的精準在面對我們去做高度精準的抽驗的評估之後最後去17家裡面查以及我們常態性的所以我們對於精準的專案的抽查尤其中秋節這種專案那其實就有常規性的去做一些抽查我們針對的 剛才講77家其實是過去有一些些"},{"start":449.94,"end":469.209,"text":"風險我們就會把它先跳出來所以我剛才提到的去7家裡面只去17家的比例是不足的部分我們未來能夠在這部分能夠把它補足這是必要的對 這是必要的而且你也才知道說你出來這些數據怎麼樣是可以要調整的不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎有沒有再增加國內的參數應該也有吧這個國內參數"},{"start":471.63,"end":495.662,"text":"所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數你如果沒有去執行完到位你才會知道說我的精準結果到底好不好有沒有要調整所以我想這部分要署長這邊我覺得善用科技是對的因為我們剛說人力不足可是你用了之後你要不斷的滾動檢討不要說你自己產出了77家就你自己只看了17家好這部分要請署長"},{"start":497.664,"end":512.538,"text":"把這個事情可以做完善然後把它重新檢討你的這個工具可不可以改善是的 一定會的 謝謝那針對這一次的獨大廠的事件其實也有這個公衛學者呼籲說推動食安簽證的制度"},{"start":513.463,"end":531.815,"text":"那納入這個食品技師跟公共衛生師那根據這個工程會的各科職業技師人數統計截至112年零有食品科技書的證書人數是2601人可是設立的這個事務所啊職業人數和受聘之職業人數是零"},{"start":533.456,"end":552.65,"text":"好那113年的時候呢有執照者是2686實際職業只有15人喔那就即便有這麼多的人力的潛力但是食藥署回應說沒有增加這個食安簽證制度的考量好那這部分是有什麼是基於什麼樣的評估還是你們還沒評估完善"},{"start":554.729,"end":579.522,"text":"委員這邊跟委員做進一步說明因為在食安法的規制之下的三級評管其實我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才專職人才的部分在食品工廠的具衛生管理的人員是第一個階層除此之外對於所謂的HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師的證照呢我們其實這部分已經都有一定的"},{"start":580.242,"end":598.116,"text":"的一個制度在裡面所以我們剛才提到的是說監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟二級的品管第三方的驗證確保食安等等以及所謂的政府的三級的品管裡面我們研議的是它其實架構上是一致的"},{"start":599.147,"end":624.954,"text":"那我們是讓他能夠這種評管的方式從內部到外部的自主規制公司協定自主規制的做法去思考但特別的一部分是在另外一部分是公衛師的部分因為公衛師對於我們看到的是對現在的食品所謂的中毒的事件食中的事件裡面我們覺得對於他的調查跟釐清真相有他的角色所以我們也把這個部分進一步的去研議"},{"start":625.794,"end":643.784,"text":"那至於前面的所以有在演繹嗎是的因為我其實我也要表達的事情是說的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計它包含到可能有法規的層面然後以及你說的這個驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任那我的意思是說這個是不是你們有在演繹這個方向那你們認為說結論目前的結論是什麼"},{"start":647.543,"end":672.735,"text":"目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在十種裡面的所謂公衛師裡面的一個想法希望能夠進一步研議比較及早的納入一些協助好 那署長這部分要請你們去思考要怎麼應用這些專業人力不要把它就是擺在那裡有的證書然後又不能用那另外就是本次回來本次的事件 我會盡述這個部分我想要問一下"},{"start":673.675,"end":688.756,"text":"在百味公司有在非登錄不可登錄的系統登記地點在台北市的寧夏路嗎但工廠的部分也本來也規定應該是要登錄但是這部分查不到是不是所以他是不是沒有在工廠登記上面是沒有是的他沒有好"},{"start":690.03,"end":704.99,"text":"那他有沒有HACCP認證也沒有也沒有對好那我們剛剛有委員有質詢我也要再追問獨大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉那檢調7月份開始進行調查我想要請問一下食藥署何時才掌握的"},{"start":705.868,"end":729.74,"text":"我們其實在6月被接受到檢舉之後我們就開始啟動了那我們本來的行政的處置呢 實際上行政稽查是定在7月14號中間其實在保期減掉的部分最後確定成案的時候是我記得是7月3號7月初的時候所以你們6月其實就掌握了嗎我們其實就已經有掌握了所以針對這一點其實部長有特別指示因為以"},{"start":730.66,"end":750.036,"text":"那那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查的確我們提到說我們評估起來他的風險其實是重大是一個違規的明知故犯的一個情形所以我們當初的想法是行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分我們會進一步的做檢討"},{"start":750.737,"end":775.653,"text":"對 因為我就是要說 你剛剛有說這空白集體人有怕打草驚蛇但我認為這樣的說法是不對的 而且這是推卸責任的你說一定要讓檢調掉 那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功然後再者你們沒有去調查的時候 哇 已經一堆人吃下肚了你究竟是真的要等到他 難道這個被起訴了你才阻止這件事發生嗎我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法 請這部分要請部長積極主動"},{"start":778.175,"end":795.346,"text":"跟委員報告我們會調整做法不會只是說為了要配合檢調而延遲著我們該有的行政作為因為我們還是以國人的健康做優先這部分你也要去實際的去了解一下到底有沒有中間有哪裡出的狀況"},{"start":796.827,"end":818.979,"text":"再來所以統整來看其實還有一個很大的問題就是現在的屠宰的這個體系的規範其實是嚴格但是問題並非在於這個百威倉這個冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大腸或者是豬肉製品是什麼病死或是必死豬因為豬肉品跟這個內臟它出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄而是食藥署對不對"},{"start":819.899,"end":838.156,"text":"所以這一次這也是因為這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據那合理推斷就是百威向眾多這個屠宰場收購完之後放在自己的倉儲裡面嘛然後要交貨前再去泡這個工業用的雙氧水好讓他的賣相變得比較好對嗎是不是這樣"},{"start":841.821,"end":867.798,"text":"這個實際的廠他們作業原則上我們了解是他是屠宰廠旁邊的一個違章建築的貨櫃屋裡面來進行相關的一些這些珠藏的一個處置對這些是沒有登錄的所以我們在農業部跟我們之間對於食品安全管理的部分加工的部分我們會跟密切的來是署長所以這裡就會有個問題出現了其實他這件事情的核心其實是"},{"start":868.658,"end":887.885,"text":"可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用所以如果不能透過源頭管理或是根本無法是就根本無法有效的調查所以在源頭管理的這個部分呢政府之前為了管控流入食品製成的化學物質的流向是不是在105年有建置一個化學雲對不對"},{"start":889.105,"end":905.502,"text":"那到113年的8月底卻還沒有克服喔所謂的藉階勞動部這個化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統的原始資料的欄位的一些缺漏好那這部分邀請我們食安辦我們食安辦主任喔"},{"start":907.378,"end":921.769,"text":"所以這個部分也在審計部的報告中有被點出來而且這是一個跨部會的問題所以今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到所謂化學品流入食品體系的這樣的問題"},{"start":923.79,"end":947.628,"text":"所以你們這個問題什麼時候要解決我們其實這禮拜就會安排會議討論關鍵是在我們在化學與環境部的這邊我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類的這個可能會在食品廠用的非食天的這一類的物質去納管成為第四類的那個毒化物"},{"start":948.588,"end":963.973,"text":"就是那個風險的物質管理那它所有的運作買賣每一筆都要上網去登錄那這樣就會很有效的對 所以簡單來講你們這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題所以食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色可是我剛剛會"},{"start":964.753,"end":983.827,"text":"就是剛還有委員在問說問你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部要等經濟部的數據可是我必須告訴對主任這是你們跨部會你的你的責任你不可以去用推託的問題因為你本來就是行政院的對所以是不是可以這個你們打算什麼時候可以來改善這個狀況預估什麼時多少時間"},{"start":985.908,"end":1000.204,"text":"我一個月內把我們後續怎麼做的進程跟報告各個部會他應該要怎麼樣去把這個系統分工然後怎麼樣串接好大家統一去看不要這邊一個資料這邊一個資料那大家都勾結不起來所以最重要的就是說"},{"start":1001.145,"end":1022.534,"text":"這件事情就是剛剛說的我覺得核心的關鍵在於這個工業級的一些原物料流動用到這個食品加工那很簡單就是不肖業者嘛這個成本很低嘛所以這就是今天最重要本席的總結這是食安辦的責任你應該要把這個溯源源頭管理的部分這些系統全部都借接好好不好好謝謝一個月內好謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1022,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時32分）謝謝主席。請部長還有署長。"],["主席：請部長還有署長。"],["石部長崇良：召委好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。想要請教一下，食藥署的邊境稽查人力總人數是不是達到百人？對不對？但每年有超過大概76萬批進口食品的稽核需求存在，所以以目前的總數量來講，就已經是超過負荷了。在地方衛生局方面，食藥署申請行政院的計畫，所以你們於114年補助地方政府衛生局的稽查人力是45人，但如果22個縣市都平均分配的情況之下，每一個縣市大概就只增加2個人，還遠遠不足嘛！針對地方稽查量能不足的問題，也可以理解是員額一時半刻沒辦法大幅增加，但是我想還是要透過合理的分配來解決這個問題。因此也想要問部長，是不是能夠以人口，或大宗食品產品，或者是更精確的指標來分配這些人力需求？是不是應該這樣？而不是用均分的方式，可能要用風險導向去分配這些人力，這個部分提供你思考，等一下再來回應。","另外，食藥署近期也公告，明年起食品的安全監測計畫要擴大至資本額2,000萬以上未達3,000萬的業者，對不對？未來可能還會再降，因為要擴大查核的對象。這個部分本席認為很棒，也樂觀其成。但是用現實面來講，現在的人力都已經不足了，要怎麼因應這個新增的監管對象？而且要確保擴大了監管而不會有稀釋現有稽查量能的問題；要怎麼樣更加精準才可以稽查到？不然永遠用不夠。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，當然，我們分成兩邊，如果是邊境查驗的部分，現在導入了AI，就是用人工智慧去……"],["廖委員偉翔：逾期食品偵測的模組。"],["石部長崇良：對，用邊境的部分來協助人力上不足的問題，更精準地做分批抽驗。至於剛剛委員提到的地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：地方人力的分配問題。"],["石部長崇良：對，人力的分配確實也是按照人口分4組，比如臺北、新北是屬於第1組，六都就是第1組，因為人口數比較多……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是用風險導向做人力的配置，不是均分的問題。"],["石部長崇良：對，還有以專案稽核的件數去分配。"],["廖委員偉翔：本席想要凸顯的重點就是人力永遠不足，所以一定要想辦法，包含你說的導入AI也好，或者是人力怎麼讓它風險導向精準地分配，讓資源的分布更加精準，這是本席要提醒的。","另外還有一個問題，就是行政院補助地方的「113年精進地方政府關鍵食安管理計畫」高達10億，對不對？但是沒有強制要求各縣市建立稽查人力的報表或績效指標，也就是說這個補助計畫是沒有指標的，我們要怎麼看這10億花下去，到底用在哪裡？成果如何？報告內容也沒有說明，就更不用說有什麼樣的指標來評價這筆經費的投入成果，所以也想要請問一下食安辦。"],["許主任輔：跟委員報告，這個10億元裡面分一半、一半，事實上各部會都有上百項指標，不會是您講的沒指標，是很細的指標。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為報告裡面沒有看到這個指標……"],["許主任輔：對，是、是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們的指標是什麼？"],["許主任輔：會議後提供。就是KPI，如要稽核幾個項目、幾人次，來達到我們所要求的，然後每個部會給的，或是它要聘人……"],["廖委員偉翔：請會後提供指標給我，因為目前的報告沒有看到，畢竟這個預算用在哪裡？成效到底是什麼？這個部分很重要。"],["許主任輔：好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來就是剛剛我們也有討論……"],["石部長崇良：剛剛委員還有指教說我們把資本額降低，從3,000萬降到2,000萬，逐年地降低，這個部分會牽涉到廠商應負擔的責任。就是過去在3,000萬以上的，一方面要自行建立它的檢驗量能，同時也要有外部的稽核、第三方的查證，所以它的責任比較高。我們過去是用3,000萬作為門檻……"],["廖委員偉翔：然後現在是2,000萬到3,000萬嘛！"],["石部長崇良：現在我們要逐步地把它往下降，等於是讓三級品管裡面，第一級跟第二級的適用對象可以更擴大。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我看了一下數據，大概是會增加三千多家業者啦！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣子關於精準方面，或者是查驗工作的負荷量就會增大，所以這個部分也要精準地安排一下你們的配置。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：食藥署建置的逾期食品偵測模組，也耗資近2,800萬，是藉由收集歐盟食品跟飼料快速預警系統等國際食安資料庫數據，也結合國內食品雲等資料，進行大數據的分析，看起來就是所謂的AI，很厲害的樣子。對於高風險產品進行監控，該署又配合「112年中秋複合式專案」等5項稽查專案，用該模組算出了77家潛在風險業者，對不對？經該署的查核，就是你們查到的結果，實際僅稽查了17家！也就是說用這麼複雜的系統找出77家潛在風險業者，可是只去查了17家，只到這個清單的三成。這個利用率應該有待加強，而且最終稽查出來的結果，僅查獲8家業者沒有符合食品良好衛生規範，就是GHP，尚無業者使用或者儲存逾期食品情事。但同期間，你們用人工去查獲的製造跟餐飲業者逾期食品的違規案件數達到73家，所以顯示什麼？顯示現在這套系統要怎麼樣提升它的精準度？以及有沒有把這些廠家都查完，才知道現在監測的這些數據，或者是模組產出來的清單是精準的嘛！這部分可不可以請署長回答一下？"],["姜署長至剛：委員，所有數字都非常地精準。面對我們做高度精準的抽驗評估之後，最後稽查了17家以及常態性的部分。所以對於精準的專案抽查，尤其中秋節這種專案，其實就有常規性地做一些抽查。剛才講的77家其實是過去有一些風險的，我們就會把它先跳出來，所以我剛才提到77家裡面只去了17家，比例是不足的，未來我們要把這部分補足，這是必要的。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，這是必要的，而且你也才知道這些數據是可以調整的，不然你的參數都是用歐盟的嗎？有沒有再增加國內的參數？應該也有吧？"],["姜署長至剛：國內參數也是同時在進行。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我的意思就是說你們既然做了這個參數，如果沒有去執行到位，不會精準的知道結果到底好不好、有沒有要調整。我覺得善用科技是對的，因為人力不足，可是你用了之後要不斷的滾動檢討，不要說你產出了77家，結果你自己只看了17家！這部分要請署長把這個事情做完善，然後重新檢討你的工具可不可以改善。"],["姜署長至剛：是的，一定會的，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：針對這一次毒大腸的事件，其實也有公衛學者呼籲，推動食安簽證制度，納入食品技師跟公共衛生師。根據工程會的各科職業技師人數統計，截至112年領有食品科技證書的人數是2,601人，可是設立的事務所執業人數和受聘之執業人數是0；113年的時候有執照者是2,686人，實際執業的只有15人。即便有這麼多的人力潛力，但是食藥署回應說沒有推動食安簽證制度的考量，這個部分是基於什麼樣的評估？還是你們還沒有評估完善？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員做進一步說明。因為在食安法規制之下的三級品管，我們對於導入所謂專業性的人才、專職的人才，在食品工廠居於衛生管理的人員是第一個階層，除此之外，對於HACCP裡面導入的食品技師跟餐飲業者的相關技師證照，其實都已經有一定的制度在。所以我們剛才提到的是監測的計畫加上第一級的品管跟第二級品管、第三方的驗證，確保食安等等，以及所謂政府的三級品管，其實它架構上是一致的，我們研議的是讓這種品管的方式能夠從內部到外部公私協力、自主規制的作法去思考。但特別的一部分是公衛師的部分，因為我們看到公衛師在現在的食品中毒事件中，對於調查跟釐清真相有他的角色，所以，我們進一步去研議這部分。至於前面的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以有在研議嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為我也要表達的是，的確要負責任的去推動這個制度的設計，可能還包含法規的層面，以及你說的驗證端到底誰要負什麼責任，我的意思只是問你們是不是有在研議這個方向？你們認為目前的結論是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：有的，目前我們覺得比較迫切的是在食中裡面所謂公衛師的一個想法，希望能夠進一步研議，及早納入一些協助。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，署長，這部分請你們去思考要怎麼運用這些專業人力，不要讓他有個證書擺在那裡然後又不能用。","另外，回頭討論本次的事件。我想要問一下百威公司在非登不可登錄系統的登記地點在臺北市寧夏路，至於工廠部分本來也規定應該要登錄，但是這部分查不到，所以他在工廠登記上面是不是沒有？"],["姜署長至剛：是的，他沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：那他有沒有HACCP認證？"],["姜署長至剛：也沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛有委員質詢，我也要再追問，毒大腸事件6月份就有人檢舉，檢調7月份開始進行調查，我想要請問一下，食藥署何時才掌握的？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實在6月接到檢舉之後，就開始啟動了。我們本來的行政處置，事實上行政稽查是訂在7月14號，在保七、檢調最後確定成案的時候我記得是7月3號。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們6月其實就掌握了？"],["姜署長至剛：我們其實就已經有掌握了。針對這一點，其實部長有特別指示，因為以衛福部食藥署……"],["廖委員偉翔：那個時候為什麼沒有積極調查？"],["姜署長至剛：我們評估起來，它的風險其實是重大且違規的，是明知故犯的情形。所以我們當初的想法是，行政權的介入相對司法權的確是比較薄弱，但是部長有特別指示我們對這個部分作進一步的檢討。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我就是要說你剛剛有說這空白幾天怕打草驚蛇，但我認為這樣的說法是不對的，而且這是推卸責任的。你說一定要讓檢調調查，那你不是讓你的行政調查自廢武功？再者，在你們沒有去調查的時候，已經一堆人吃下肚了，你難道是真的要等到它被起訴了，你才阻止這件事發生嗎？我認為這是一個推卸責任的說法，這部分要請部長積極主動，不要再……"],["石部長崇良：對，跟委員報告，我們會調整作法，不會只是為了配合檢調而延遲了我們該有的行政作為，因為還是要以國人的健康為優先。"],["廖委員偉翔：這部分也要實際的去了解一下到底中間有哪裡出了狀況。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：統整來看，其實還有一個很大的問題。就是現在屠宰體系規範其實是嚴格的，所以問題並非在於百威冷凍倉儲裡面的這些大廠或豬肉製品是什麼病死或斃死豬，因為豬肉品跟內臟出了屠宰場就不是農業部管轄，而是食藥署，對不對？所以這也是這一次衛福部用食安法重罰的理由跟依據。合理推斷，就是百威向眾多屠宰場收購完之後，放在自己的倉儲裡面，然後要交貨前再去泡工業用雙氧水，讓它的賣相變得比較好，對嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：這個廠實際的作業，據我們了解，它是在屠宰場旁邊的一個違章建築貨櫃屋裡來進行豬腸的處置，這些是沒有登錄的。所以在農業部跟我們對於食品安全的管理與加工部分，會密切的來去……"],["廖委員偉翔：署長，所以這裡就會有個問題出現，其實這件事情的核心可能是雙氧水在食品工業上面的違法使用，如果不能透過源頭管理，就根本無法有效的調查。所以在源頭管理的部分，政府之前為了管控流入食品製程的化學物質流向，在105年建置了化學雲。但到113年的8月底都還沒有克服所謂的介接勞動部的化學品報備與許可平台的資訊系統原始資料欄位的一些缺漏，這部分要請食安辦主任說明。這部分在審計部的報告中有被點出來，而且這是一個跨部會的問題，今天環境部跟勞動部沒有來，但是他們兩個部會也可能會牽扯到化學品流入食品體系的問題，請問你們這個問題什麼時候要解決？"],["許主任輔：我們這禮拜就會安排會議討論，關鍵是在化學雲，我們會請環境部研議把類似雙氧水這一類可能會在食品廠用的、非食添的物質納管，成為第四類的毒化物，就是風險物質管理，那它所有的運作、買賣，每一筆都要上網去登錄，這樣就會很有效的……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以簡單來講，這個問題其實是一個跨部會的問題，食安辦應該要扮演很重要的角色。"],["許主任輔：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：剛剛有委員在問，可是你說這個問題要可能要等經濟部的數據。我必須告訴主任，這是你的責任，你不可以推托。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你本來就是隸屬行政院的。"],["許主任輔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們打算什麼時候可以改善這個狀況？預估需要多少時間？"],["許主任輔：我一個月內把後續怎麼做的進程跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，然後在這個系統裡面各個部會應該要怎麼樣分工、怎麼樣串接好，大家統一去看，不要這邊一個資料、那邊一個資料，勾稽不起來。"],["許主任輔：好的，了解。"],["廖委員偉翔：最重要的就是，這件事情的核心關鍵在於工業級原物料流入食品加工，那很簡單，就是不肖業者嘛！因為成本低嘛！"],["許主任輔：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：這就是今天本席最重要的總結！這是食安辦的責任，你應該要把溯源、源頭管理的這些系統全部介接好，好不好？"],["許主任輔：好的，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：一個月內？"],["許主任輔：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔召委的發言，謝謝部長跟主任的回應。","下一位請顏寬恒委員發言，顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員不在。","下一位請劉建國召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":260,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","邱鎮軍","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","王正旭","盧縣一","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","邱志偉","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","廖偉翔","劉建國","葉元之","楊曜"],"page_start":189,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長及行政院食品安全辦公室就「重大食安事件處理之檢討與食安稽核人力不足\n問題」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00004"}}}