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\"text\": \"那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 104.662, \"end\": 104.862, \"score\": 0.613}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 104.862, \"end\": 104.982, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 104.982, \"end\": 105.002, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 105.002, \"end\": 105.082, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 105.082, \"end\": 105.143, \"score\": 0.132}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 105.143, \"end\": 105.163, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"您\", \"start\": 105.163, \"end\": 105.303, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 105.303, \"end\": 105.423, \"score\": 0.624}, {\"word\": \"負\", \"start\": 105.423, \"end\": 105.443, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"災\"}, 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{\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 702.628, \"end\": 702.708, \"score\": 0.742}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 702.708, \"end\": 702.728, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 702.728, \"end\": 702.848, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 702.848, \"end\": 702.868, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 713.82, \"end\": 713.941, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 713.941, \"end\": 714.805, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 714.805, \"end\": 714.966, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 714.966, \"end\": 715.087, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 715.087, \"end\": 715.107, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,390 --> 00:00:12,627\n議華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,955 --> 00:00:24,356\n委員好主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書\n\n3\n00:00:39,401 --> 00:00:56,517\n有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多呢\n\n4\n00:00:57,618 --> 00:01:00,482\n馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢叫做\n\n5\n00:01:14,620 --> 00:01:43,442\n政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣一字不差\n\n6\n00:01:44,662 --> 00:01:48,404\n那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委\n\n7\n00:02:12,435 --> 00:02:28,437\n那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是呢我特別要提的就是\n\n8\n00:02:29,471 --> 00:02:51,944\n部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置中繼安置所以呢他們也有一點點納悶他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院\n\n9\n00:02:52,924 --> 00:03:19,732\n他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置\n\n10\n00:03:20,552 --> 00:03:25,173\n那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置\n\n11\n00:03:50,565 --> 00:03:59,835\n對您回覆讓他們安心有包括因為我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右所以當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解\n\n12\n00:04:07,623 --> 00:04:31,051\n其實守重就是尊重民意這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講\n\n13\n00:04:33,092 --> 00:04:51,657\n就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建\n\n14\n00:04:56,438 --> 00:05:09,408\n因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所\n\n15\n00:05:11,269 --> 00:05:20,536\n那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實\n\n16\n00:05:27,242 --> 00:05:42,498\n這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的熊本大地震\n\n17\n00:05:43,439 --> 00:05:58,460\n他們這個照片可以看到大家的家個別的零食組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有\n\n18\n00:06:00,042 --> 00:06:03,746\n繼莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第4條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長\n\n19\n00:06:23,504 --> 00:06:37,012\n因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文\n\n20\n00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:49,760\n各位報告\n\n21\n00:07:07,149 --> 00:07:19,726\n這個大社這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的\n\n22\n00:07:22,749 --> 00:07:38,938\n在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會\n\n23\n00:07:40,118 --> 00:07:51,151\n這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長\n\n24\n00:08:01,003 --> 00:08:25,911\n因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟開委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講\n\n25\n00:08:28,071 --> 00:08:54,160\n這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權\n\n26\n00:08:55,140 --> 00:09:08,947\n我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的\n\n27\n00:09:23,375 --> 00:09:38,123\n檢視一下謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面\n\n28\n00:09:39,924 --> 00:09:49,095\n那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計畫給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個紅委員有這個\n\n29\n00:09:55,301 --> 00:10:20,400\n報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個堰塞湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的\n\n30\n00:10:22,281 --> 00:10:44,760\n也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求\n\n31\n00:10:45,560 --> 00:11:08,541\n謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺市文德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險\n\n32\n00:11:09,662 --> 00:11:24,819\n安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府\n\n33\n00:11:25,259 --> 00:11:42,868\n有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n34\n00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:55,107\n謝謝五一會員接下來我們請\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n390\t12627\t議華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長\n19955\t24356\t委員好主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書\n39401\t56517\t有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多呢\n57618\t60482\t馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢叫做\n74620\t103442\t政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣一字不差\n104662\t108404\t那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委\n132435\t148437\t那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是呢我特別要提的就是\n149471\t171944\t部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置中繼安置所以呢他們也有一點點納悶他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院\n172924\t199732\t他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置\n200552\t205173\t那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置\n230565\t239835\t對您回覆讓他們安心有包括因為我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右所以當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解\n247623\t271051\t其實守重就是尊重民意這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講\n273092\t291657\t就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建\n296438\t309408\t因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所\n311269\t320536\t那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實\n327242\t342498\t這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的熊本大地震\n343439\t358460\t他們這個照片可以看到大家的家個別的零食組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有\n360042\t363746\t繼莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第4條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長\n383504\t397012\t因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文\n409640\t409760\t各位報告\n427149\t439726\t這個大社這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的\n442749\t458938\t在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會\n460118\t471151\t這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長\n481003\t505911\t因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟開委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講\n508071\t534160\t這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權\n535140\t548947\t我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的\n563375\t578123\t檢視一下謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面\n579924\t589095\t那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計畫給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個紅委員有這個\n595301\t620400\t報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個堰塞湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的\n622281\t644760\t也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求\n645560\t668541\t謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺 市文 德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險\n669662\t684819\t安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府\n685259\t702868\t有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n713820\t715107\t謝謝五一會員接下來我們請\n","txt":"議華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長\n委員好主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書\n有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多呢\n馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢叫做\n政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣一字不差\n那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委\n那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是呢我特別要提的就是\n部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置中繼安置所以呢他們也有一點點納悶他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院\n他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置\n那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置\n對您回覆讓他們安心有包括因為我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右所以當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解\n其實守重就是尊重民意這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講\n就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建\n因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所\n那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實\n這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的熊本大地震\n他們這個照片可以看到大家的家個別的零食組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有\n繼莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第4條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長\n因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文\n各位報告\n這個大社這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的\n在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會\n這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長\n因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟開委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講\n這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權\n我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的\n檢視一下謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面\n那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計畫給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個紅委員有這個\n報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個堰塞湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的\n也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求\n謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺 市文 德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險\n安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府\n有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席\n謝謝五一會員接下來我們請\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.390 --> 00:12.627\n議華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長\n\n00:19.955 --> 00:24.356\n委員好主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書\n\n00:39.401 --> 00:56.517\n有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多呢\n\n00:57.618 --> 01:00.482\n馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢叫做\n\n01:14.620 --> 01:43.442\n政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣一字不差\n\n01:44.662 --> 01:48.404\n那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委\n\n02:12.435 --> 02:28.437\n那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是呢我特別要提的就是\n\n02:29.471 --> 02:51.944\n部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置中繼安置所以呢他們也有一點點納悶他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院\n\n02:52.924 --> 03:19.732\n他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置\n\n03:20.552 --> 03:25.173\n那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置\n\n03:50.565 --> 03:59.835\n對您回覆讓他們安心有包括因為我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右所以當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解\n\n04:07.623 --> 04:31.051\n其實守重就是尊重民意這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講\n\n04:33.092 --> 04:51.657\n就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建\n\n04:56.438 --> 05:09.408\n因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所\n\n05:11.269 --> 05:20.536\n那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實\n\n05:27.242 --> 05:42.498\n這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的熊本大地震\n\n05:43.439 --> 05:58.460\n他們這個照片可以看到大家的家個別的零食組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有\n\n06:00.042 --> 06:03.746\n繼莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第4條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長\n\n06:23.504 --> 06:37.012\n因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文\n\n06:49.640 --> 06:49.760\n各位報告\n\n07:07.149 --> 07:19.726\n這個大社這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的\n\n07:22.749 --> 07:38.938\n在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會\n\n07:40.118 --> 07:51.151\n這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長\n\n08:01.003 --> 08:25.911\n因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟開委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講\n\n08:28.071 --> 08:54.160\n這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權\n\n08:55.140 --> 09:08.947\n我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的\n\n09:23.375 --> 09:38.123\n檢視一下謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面\n\n09:39.924 --> 09:49.095\n那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計畫給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個紅委員有這個\n\n09:55.301 --> 10:20.400\n報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個堰塞湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的\n\n10:22.281 --> 10:44.760\n也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求\n\n10:45.560 --> 11:08.541\n謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺市文德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險\n\n11:09.662 --> 11:24.819\n安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府\n\n11:25.259 --> 11:42.868\n有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長謝謝主委謝謝主席\n\n11:53.820 --> 11:55.107\n謝謝五一會員接下來我們請\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.39,"end":12.627,"text":"議華委員謝謝主席有請原民會主委內政部長主委跟部長"},{"start":19.955,"end":24.356,"text":"委員好主委好部長好我今天來是幫我們馬太安的居民來去做一個陳情請命為什麼呢因為大概昨天晚間11點左右花蓮縣長徐真衛縣長他有在他的臉書"},{"start":39.401,"end":56.517,"text":"有發文請大家支持這一次畫家殺風災記花蓮馬太安溪眼色虎潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法那麼一個多小時之後也就是凌晨一點多呢"},{"start":57.618,"end":60.482,"text":"馬太安那個地方的粉磚就發文強烈的來反對這個磚法特別是第六條那第六條是什麼我念給大家聽這個第六條呢叫做"},{"start":74.62,"end":103.442,"text":"政府得救災區安全堪於或違法濫建之土地經與原住居者諮商取得共識得劃定特定區域限制居住或限其強制遷居遷村且應與符合前項之適當安置這個文字呢跟16年前的莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣一字不差"},{"start":104.662,"end":108.404,"text":"那主委你應該還記得因為當時您是負責這個災後重建的屏東縣政府園民處處長那個時候我們原住民因為當時的這個是放在第20條強制遷居遷村然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意所以呢引起很大的訪談你應該還記得吧主委"},{"start":132.435,"end":148.437,"text":"那不太曉得說為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到這個華家莎的這個特別的條例裡面但是呢我特別要提的就是"},{"start":149.471,"end":171.944,"text":"部落族人他們講了很久我們媒體也都看得到他們一直講四個字希望能夠中繼安置中繼安置所以呢他們也有一點點納悶他們說為什麼國民黨所提出的這個華紮莎的特別條例跟我們先前行政院"},{"start":172.924,"end":199.732,"text":"他提出的是就丹納斯G728的災後特別重建條例說要來做一個修訂那我是有解釋給他們聽我說這個丹納斯G728的特別條例他是增加了第四條就是馬太安溪顏色湖整治及災區復原其中有一個叫做受災民安置"},{"start":200.552,"end":205.173,"text":"那麼他們說那受災民安置沒有看到啊我們目前看到的安置措施是原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛那內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿租金補貼貸款利息補貼那他們就說沒有看到所以我在這邊請教一下部長您做一下確認這個受災民眾安置就是行政院的版本有沒有包括中繼安置"},{"start":230.565,"end":239.835,"text":"對您回覆讓他們安心有包括因為我們現在在訪談裡面希望能夠做中繼屋大概就40戶左右所以當然是有包括在內那我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置我們應該都很了解"},{"start":247.623,"end":271.051,"text":"其實守重就是尊重民意這個非常重要如果跳過這個程序政府的美意就是為德不足人家也不會買單也不會高興所以我想這個部分我們來了解一下他們很擔心說我們一直喊中繼安置他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思我來說明一下簡單的來講"},{"start":273.092,"end":291.657,"text":"就是希望我們有一天我們要重建我們的家園但是我們不應該是分散我們不應該是一清不應該是臨時去住在旅社他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟我們的社會韌性我們應該在一起去討論我們未來家園要如何重建"},{"start":296.438,"end":309.408,"text":"因為這不是政府的事而已是我們大家的事所以他們很重視這種集體性跟社會韌性因此我舉個例子他們希望說要有一個大家的家可以在那邊討論會所"},{"start":311.269,"end":320.536,"text":"那當然他們也要有一個隱密性安心的一個居所可能是組合屋搭建甚至是考量到他們的民生需求也許一個組合屋他是雜貨店可以讓大家方便去買東西那其實"},{"start":327.242,"end":342.498,"text":"這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家像印尼菲律賓日本他們也都有這樣的措施像日本的那一次的熊本大地震"},{"start":343.439,"end":358.46,"text":"他們這個照片可以看到大家的家個別的零食組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店其實都有這樣的一個安置的方法但是我們好像目前還沒有"},{"start":360.042,"end":363.746,"text":"繼莫拉克之後這16年我們還沒有看到這樣的一個做法所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有我們就是會在這一次行政院版本的修正的這個第4條裡面會去做這樣的一個處置那剛才部長您有回到我想大家都有聽到也都很安心但是我就想要再請教一下主委跟處長"},{"start":383.504,"end":397.012,"text":"因為很多莫拉克之後還有很多還沒有完成重建的你應該很清楚知道有的是水的重建道路的重建還很多因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了然後他也還沒做完以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到所以我要說的是以這次的丹納斯來講像山地門鄉的德文"},{"start":409.64,"end":409.76,"text":"各位報告"},{"start":427.149,"end":439.726,"text":"這個大社這個部分也是放在這個丹阿斯條例裡面所以會一併來處理對不對那很好他們聽到了應該會很安心了那我現在最後就是要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉離災不離村這個是有共識的"},{"start":442.749,"end":458.938,"text":"在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的但是就是很希望說要有一個部落諮商同意的程序不能夠去違背原基法的精神政府無論怎麼定法或者做什麼樣的辦法我們都希望原民會"},{"start":460.118,"end":471.151,"text":"這個是你們要把關你們要提醒各部會因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地是不是也應該得到我們在地族人的一個共識對不對那我最後就是想要拜託一下內政部長"},{"start":481.003,"end":505.911,"text":"因為剛才我已經有聽到了你回答洪孟開委員中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了我剛有聽到了那他們不要永久屋要中繼安置你們也都在行政院板有處理了那選擇部落認可的地點重建我相信現在應該大家都能夠去知道一定要去尊重族人但是我要特別講"},{"start":508.071,"end":534.16,"text":"這個莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次就丹納斯我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例但是需要做災後安置我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權"},{"start":535.14,"end":548.947,"text":"我們是認為不需要應該是回歸到國土計劃法裡面有國土富裕區他的用地取得補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定那如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論包括他劃定的條件遷居限制居住的條件那誰要參與其中他的程序是如何那部長這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計劃法裡面來重新的"},{"start":563.375,"end":578.123,"text":"檢視一下謝謝吳委員的關心但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲要6年以後才會繼續處理但是我們現在的部分我可以跟委員報告一下就是花蓮縣他有個變更光復都市計畫的第4次通盤檢討裡面"},{"start":579.924,"end":589.095,"text":"那也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的這個變更但是到目前為止就是從110年到現在花蓮縣並沒有提到任何簽證的計畫給我們但是未來的狀況我剛有跟那個紅委員有這個"},{"start":595.301,"end":620.4,"text":"報告過第一個我們來委託一個這個都市計畫的一個大學團隊在短時間之內把這一次因為地形地貌變更包括有出現這個比較危險的區域趕快做一個變更那如果變更來得及的話包括您剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方當然我們現在為止是以台塘因為台塘現在的光復園區是沒有在這一次的這個堰塞湖的這個影響範圍內是比較安全的"},{"start":622.281,"end":644.76,"text":"也就是他可能不離鄉但是可不可以離村那這樣他們可不可以接受那如果不願意接受的話就要進入這個都市計畫的通盤檢討裡面做一個比較詳細的討論那這樣合法合規那如果經費需要支援的話就會在行政院現在所編列丹納斯之後的這個颱風我們總共編列了250億裡面做這個地方特別預算支出的需求"},{"start":645.56,"end":668.541,"text":"謝謝部長您這樣的回覆也讓我安心不少但是我還是要提醒屏東縣政府在上個禮拜也有提報一個計畫給我們園民會可能也有內政部那最主要就是因為像屏東仍舊有莫拉克之後的分水嶺 市文 德文他們是有千春意願需求不是全部因為是危險"},{"start":669.662,"end":684.819,"text":"安全堪於地區高雄像茂林的萬山部落也是現在居民都人心惶惶那他們也不知道法源依據在哪裡法律授權在哪裡地方政府也不知道但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府"},{"start":685.259,"end":702.868,"text":"有提報一個計畫已經到園民會或內政部那我們就是希望說讓部會了解確實我們未來這是不可逆的現象我們勢必要面對所以我們希望我們的法律或者是辦法可以更完備能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人好不好之後我們會來做進一步的研議好那就謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":713.82,"end":715.107,"text":"謝謝五一會員接下來我們請"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1406,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時50分）謝謝主席，有請原民會主委、內政部長。"],["主席：有請主委跟部長。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好，部長好。我今天來是幫我們馬太鞍的居民做一個陳情、請命，為什麼呢？因為昨天晚間11點左右，花蓮縣長徐榛蔚縣長有在他的臉書發文，請大家支持這一次樺加沙風災暨花蓮馬太鞍溪堰塞湖潰壩災後重建特別條例的專法，一個多小時之後，也就是凌晨1點多，馬太鞍那個地方的粉專就發文強烈地來反對這個專法，特別是第六條，那第六條是什麼？我唸給大家聽，第六條叫做「政府得就災區安全堪虞或違法濫建之土地，經與原住居者諮商取得共識，得劃定特定區域，限制居住或限期強制遷居、遷村，且應予符合前項之適當安置」，這個文字跟16年前莫拉克颱風災後重建條例的文字一模一樣，一字不差。","主委，你應該還記得，因為當時您是負責災後重建的屏東縣政府原民處處長，那個時候是放在第二十條，強制遷居、遷村，然後沒有踐行部落諮商同意，所以引起原住民很大的反彈，您應該還記得吧？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我不太曉得為什麼16年前引發在地居民這麼嚴重抗議的文字會搬到樺加沙這個特別條例裡面，但是我特別要提的就是，部落族人他們講了很久，我們媒體也都看得到，他們一直講4個字，希望能夠「中繼安置」、「中繼安置」，所以他們也有一點點納悶，他們說欸！為什麼國民黨所提出的樺加沙特別條例跟先前行政院提出的是就丹娜絲暨七二八的災後特別重建條例來做一個修訂？","我是有解釋給他們聽啦！我說這個丹娜絲暨七二八的特別條例它是增加了第四條，就是「馬太鞍溪堰塞湖整治及災區復原」，其中有一個叫做「受災民眾安置」，他們說那時候災民安置沒有看到啊！我們目前所看到的安置措施，原民會有說要媒合旅宿嘛！在內政部這邊有什麼短期旅宿、租金補貼、貸款利息補貼，那他們就說沒有看到，所以我在這邊請教部長，您做一下確認，這個「受災民眾安置」就是行政院的版本，有沒有包括中繼安置？您回復讓他們安心。"],["劉部長世芳：有，有包括。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：因為我們現在在訪談裡面，希望能夠做中繼屋的大概就40戶左右，所以當然是有包括在內。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。我想我們經過這麼多年去處理這種災後安置，我們應該都很瞭解，其實首重就是尊重民意，這個非常重要，如果跳過這個程序，政府的美意就是為德不卒啊！人家也不會買單，也不會高興啦！所以這個部分我們來瞭解一下，他們很擔心啊！說我們一直喊中繼安置，他們是不是都聽不懂中繼安置是什麼意思？","我來說明一下，簡單來講，就是希望有一天我們要重建家園，但是我們不應該是分散，我們不應該是依親，不應該是臨時去住在旅社，他們覺得說我們應該要在一起啊！因為我們要強化我們的集體性跟社會韌性，我們應該在一起去討論未來家園要如何重建，因為這不是政府的事而已，是我們大家的事，所以他們很重視這種集體性與社會韌性。因此，我舉個例子，他們希望要有一個「大家的家」可以在那邊討論，會所，當然他們也要有一個隱密性、安心的居所，可能是組合屋搭建。甚至是考量到他們的民生需求，也許一個組合屋它是雜貨店，可以讓大家方便去買東西。","其實這個也不是他們突然莫名其妙冒出來，實際上像很多常常有災後復原的國家，譬如印尼、菲律賓、日本，他們也都有這樣的措施啊！像日本那一次的熊本大地震，從這個照片可以看到，大家的家、個別的臨時組合屋或者是他們的雜貨店，其實都有這樣的安置方法，但是我們好像目前還沒有。繼莫拉克之後這16年，我們還沒有看到這樣的做法，所以剛才很高興聽到部長說有，我們會在這一次行政院版本修正的第四條裡面去做這樣的處置，剛才部長您有回答，我想大家都有聽到，也都很安心。","但是我想要再請教一下主委跟處長，因為莫拉克之後，還有很多沒有完成重建的喔！您應該很清楚知道，有的是水的重建、道路的重建，還很多啊！因為當時莫拉克重建條例就廢止了，然後它也還沒做完啊！以後要搶我們的一般預算也搶不到啊！所以我要說的是，以這一次的丹娜絲來講，像三地門鄉的德文，您也清楚知道，有十幾個人堅持莫拉克的時候不搬下去，但是他們這一次連住的房子也沒有了，也需要中繼安置啊！我不曉得內政部、原民會有沒有考量到這個？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，大社這個部分也是放在丹娜絲條例裡面，我們會來……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以會一併來處理，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：會來一併處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：很好，他們聽到了應該會很安心。","我最後要特別提到的就是離災不離鄉、離災不離村，這個是有共識的，在地居民也都覺得這樣是對的，但是就是很希望要有一個部落諮商同意的程序，不能夠去違背原基法的精神。政府無論怎麼訂法或者做什麼樣的辦法，我們都希望原民會你們要把關，你們要提醒各部會，因為我們部落族人非常在意這個部分，甚至包括我們要中繼安置的土地，是不是也應該得到在地族人的共識？對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：OK。我最後想要拜託一下內政部長，因為剛才我已經有聽到你回答洪孟楷委員，中繼安置的受災戶數量你們已經有做出調查了，我剛剛有聽到了。"],["劉部長世芳：對，目前在……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：他們不要永久屋，要中繼安置，你們也都在行政院版有處理了。","再來，選擇部落認可的地點重建，我相信現在應該大家都知道一定要去尊重族人，但是我要特別講，莫拉克災後重建條例隔16年之後就出現第二次，就是丹娜絲，我們不可能永遠等得到災後重建條例，但是需要做災後安置，我想每一年的颱風或震災應該多多少少會遇到這種問題，所以很多人說要不要特別在特別條例裡面去做遷村的法律授權，我們是認為不需要。應該是回歸到國土計畫法，裡面有國土復育區，它的用地取得、補償拆遷早就在裡面有明定，如果有不足我們就來重新修法討論，包括它劃定的條件、遷居限制居住的條件、誰要參與其中、它的程序是如何，部長，這個部分我們是不是應該也要就國土計畫法來重新檢視一下？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝伍委員的關心，但是國土計畫法在立法院裡面被延遲，要6年以後才會繼續處理。不過我們現在的部分，我可以跟委員報告一下，花蓮縣它有一個變更光復都市計畫的第四次通盤檢討，也許在這個檢討裡面我們可以做一個比較好的變更，但是到目前為止，就是從110年到現在，花蓮縣並沒有提報任何遷村的計畫給我們，所以未來的狀況，我剛剛有跟洪委員報告過，第一，我們委託一個研究都市計畫的大學團隊，在短時間之內針對這次因為地形、地貌變更出現比較危險情況的區域趕快加以變更。如果變更來得及，包括您剛剛所說的中繼屋要放在什麼地方……當然我們現在是維持在台糖，因為現在的台糖光復園區沒有在這次堰塞湖的影響範圍內，是比較安全的，也就是可能不離鄉，但會離村，看看這樣他們可不可以接受。如果不願意接受的話，就要進入都市計畫的通盤檢討，做比較詳細的討論。這樣做合法、合規，如果經費需要支援的話，就會在行政院現在針對丹娜絲之後颱風總共編列的250億元裡面做地方特別預算支出以滿足需求。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長，您這樣的回復也讓我安心不少。但我還是要提醒，屏東縣政府在上禮拜也提報一項計畫給原民會，可能也有內政部，最主要就是因為屏東仍舊有受莫拉克影響的分水嶺、士文、德文有遷村意願與需求，不是全部，因為是危險、安全堪虞地區。在高雄，茂林的萬山部落也是，現在居民都人心惶惶，他們不知道法源依據在哪裡、法律授權在哪裡，地方政府也不知道。但是我知道上個禮拜屏東縣政府提報了一項計畫，已經送到原民會或內政部，就是希望讓部會了解，未來這確實是不可逆的現象，我們勢必要面對，所以希望法律或辦法可以更完備，能夠接住所有需要的部落跟人，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，收到公文之後，我們會做進一步研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那就謝謝部長、謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請蔡易餘委員，3分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-15-3","speakers":["黃建賓","王美惠","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","黃捷","許宇甄","高金素梅","傅崐萁","牛煦庭","李柏毅","張智倫","吳琪銘","林德福","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","蔡易餘","翁曉玲","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-13"],"gazette_id":"1148201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長、原住民族委員會主任委員、農業部部長率所屬單位就「堰塞湖監測、災害預警\n通報、疏散機制及災後復原重建」進行專題報告，並備質詢，另請經濟部、環境部、衛生福利\n部、行政院公共工程委員會派員列席備詢","agenda_id":"1148201_00001"}}}