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{\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 151.996, \"end\": 152.016, \"score\": 0.388}]}, {\"start\": 152.816, \"end\": 158.331, \"text\": \"重新的這個衡量 到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 152.816, \"end\": 152.977, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 152.977, \"end\": 153.117, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 153.117, \"end\": 153.478, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"衡\", \"start\": 153.478, \"end\": 153.638, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 153.638, \"end\": 153.839, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 153.839, \"end\": 153.979, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 153.979, \"end\": 154.28, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 154.28, \"end\": 154.461, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 154.461, \"end\": 154.641, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 154.641, \"end\": 154.802, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 154.802, \"end\": 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你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 187.452, \"end\": 188.173, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 188.173, \"end\": 188.353, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 188.353, \"end\": 188.553, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 188.553, \"end\": 188.633, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 188.633, \"end\": 188.853, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 188.853, \"end\": 189.253, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 189.253, \"end\": 189.533, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 189.533, \"end\": 189.994, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"七\", \"start\": 189.994, \"end\": 190.354, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 190.354, \"end\": 190.814, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 190.814, \"end\": 191.335, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, 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院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來 能快更快\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 280.481, \"end\": 280.681, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 280.681, \"end\": 280.882, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 280.882, \"end\": 281.002, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 281.002, \"end\": 281.102, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 281.102, \"end\": 281.202, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 281.202, \"end\": 281.342, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 281.342, \"end\": 281.542, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 281.542, \"end\": 282.303, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 282.303, \"end\": 283.044, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 283.044, \"end\": 283.164, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 283.164, \"end\": 283.405, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 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那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔 不能超過今年啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想 院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 297.441, \"end\": 297.761, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 297.761, \"end\": 297.881, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 297.881, \"end\": 298.021, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 298.021, \"end\": 298.241, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 298.241, \"end\": 298.382, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 298.382, \"end\": 298.462, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 298.462, \"end\": 298.862, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 298.862, \"end\": 299.042, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 299.042, \"end\": 299.242, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 299.242, \"end\": 299.382, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 299.382, \"end\": 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674.371, \"end\": 690.177, \"text\": \"對 這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 674.371, \"end\": 674.651, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 674.651, \"end\": 674.951, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 674.951, \"end\": 675.151, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 675.151, \"end\": 675.352, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 675.352, \"end\": 675.532, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 675.532, \"end\": 676.292, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 676.292, \"end\": 676.512, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"鼓\", \"start\": 676.512, \"end\": 676.792, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"勵\"}, {\"word\": \"更\", \"start\": 676.792, \"end\": 676.952, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 676.952, \"end\": 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{\"start\": 713.729, \"end\": 738.868, \"text\": \"我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 713.729, \"end\": 713.809, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 713.809, \"end\": 713.909, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 713.909, \"end\": 714.289, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 714.289, \"end\": 714.51, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 714.51, \"end\": 715.01, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 715.01, \"end\": 715.13, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 715.13, \"end\": 715.23, \"score\": 0.502}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 715.23, \"end\": 715.35, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 715.35, \"end\": 715.43, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 715.43, \"end\": 715.57, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 715.57, \"end\": 715.731, 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 771.578, \"end\": 771.778, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 771.778, \"end\": 772.018, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 772.018, \"end\": 772.338, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 772.338, \"end\": 772.458, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 772.458, \"end\": 772.559, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 772.559, \"end\": 772.799, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"藉\", \"start\": 772.799, \"end\": 772.959, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"著\", \"start\": 772.959, \"end\": 773.259, \"score\": 0.809}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 773.259, \"end\": 774.36, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 774.36, \"end\": 774.58, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 774.58, \"end\": 774.821, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 774.821, \"end\": 775.041, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": 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00:01:00,101\n萬大樹林縣從台北市進入到新北市綜合樹林土層其實對沿線交通居民的生活都非常重要所以我從2016年一路爭取到現在確實是看到了成果真的動起來包括捷運的柱子都立起來樹林人都說等一十年終於看到了捷運的柱子\n\n4\n00:01:00,521 --> 00:01:24,586\n可是現在我們這個財務修正計畫第二期萬民大樹林第二期的這個財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況因為他在去年11月交通部函送報到了行政院3月國發會還有行政院的交還處都通過審查啦可是那是3月現在已經10月了整整7個月院長\n\n5\n00:01:25,606 --> 00:01:45,329\n到底為什麼沒有辦法核定這個沒有辦法核定其實影響我們後面很大包括這個絕標包括開工當然完工所以院長可不可以在這裡明確的告訴我們現在什麼狀況接下來要怎麼處理好謝謝委員對新北市這個整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促\n\n6\n00:01:47,580 --> 00:01:58,884\n土層樹林線這是一個非常重要的交通動脈之前原來合訂的工程款是比較少的大概只有550億左右後來因為經過時間的也拖長變更等等\n\n7\n00:02:05,126 --> 00:02:32,016\n國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億加到770億這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅的修正中央的整個統籌分配稅款讓地方有大幅的挪移到地方上來所以我們現在正按照整個財政的集賜在做\n\n8\n00:02:32,816 --> 00:02:38,331\n重新的這個衡量到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款\n\n9\n00:02:39,249 --> 00:03:06,471\n如果沒有辦法達到分擔那可能時間是要延長但我認為時間延長對地方的接受程度是比較低的所以我們就來看看按財政機制如何來算出來中央地方該核定的部分因為捷運到底是一個地方自治應辦事項的一部分院長真的因為你時間再繼續拖下去其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已如果再不核定770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道所以院長你能不能夠承諾\n\n10\n00:03:07,452 --> 00:03:22,702\n我們現在已經等了七個月了七個月很長的一段時間了現在的這一個計畫案到底他你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪\n\n11\n00:03:23,783 --> 00:03:52,108\n我想你應該會更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕那跟委員報告雖然我們的預算的部分還沒有很確定那是修正計畫的部分那施工的部分它還是持續在走所以我們現在確保的是第一它的工程不要因此而延宕那第二當然對於未來整體的大概不是只有新北市啦部長我們其實還有B標880B標其實因為這個預算財務修正計畫還沒有通過沒有核定所以我們不能絕標耶\n\n12\n00:03:53,828 --> 00:04:13,834\n這個部分還沒有決標我清楚前面的工程沒有延到我們很感謝這個部分我們希望能夠趕快我們全國的整個捷運的預算大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量我們要先確認好這件事情之後我們會很快速的把這件事確定完之後我想這個部分我們會加速來進行\n\n13\n00:04:14,687 --> 00:04:40,181\n加速是到什麼時候院長還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧現在維景主計總署就各縣市有類似的案子關於預算的分擔的進行做一個綜合性的一個整理那我認為明年度的中央政府總計算已經送到大院來審議那也會開始來審議明年度的中央政府總計算所以現在今年度我們該完成的工作我會要求今年度一定要完成\n\n14\n00:04:40,481 --> 00:04:56,981\n今年度一定要完成院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來能快更快\n\n15\n00:04:57,441 --> 00:05:26,177\n好那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔不能超過今年啦好謝謝部長謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長\n\n16\n00:05:27,037 --> 00:05:40,231\n你應該很清楚吧如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市的這個更新的話那老屋重建的方式現在大概有什麼啊這危老跟都更兩件危老跟都更兩件那危老跟都更有什麼差別\n\n17\n00:05:41,454 --> 00:06:08,210\n危老的方式比較簡單一點都更的要件比較程序上條件上比較程序上連院長也是都這樣講大家的印象也是這樣實務上也是這樣我特別列了一個表格給院長這邊部長也上來了那參考一下你看看其實危老跟都更的差異從這個容積獎勵地價稅房屋稅土增稅契稅其實所有的獎勵都是都更比較好\n\n18\n00:06:09,190 --> 00:06:30,143\n可是院長都更和危老的案件數你有統計過嗎你有看過嗎你覺得大家會選什麼都更的數量還是不夠多最明顯的案例現在大家知道的其實很兩件很耳熟能詳一個是國賓飯店一個是六福客在都是大面積的都市想要老屋重建可是他們都選了什麼\n\n19\n00:06:30,543 --> 00:06:55,553\n他們都選危老他們都選危老的狀況得到的效果是什麼國賓飯店六個月之內就核定了六福客餐甚至是兩個月之內就核定了所以我們實地去訪查了業者還有居民得到的狀況是為什麼大家不選都更而選危老其實很明顯的就是兩大原因第一個就是都更的審議時間太長\n\n20\n00:06:58,354 --> 00:07:23,299\n審議其成不明所以成本無法負擔無法估計成本不明第二個就是產區產權地區的產權太複雜所以整合要曠日廢時其實大概就是這兩個狀況所以比較表如果把剛剛那個優劣的這個比較表繼續比較下去的話院長就可以看得出來其實你看你剛剛也說了都市更新的審查時間\n\n21\n00:07:25,061 --> 00:07:46,673\n現在一般3到5目前是說聽說大概現在同一件案件大概5到7甚至可能更久這個院長你完全同意吧所以你剛剛說案件數量你看都市更新條例27年才完成1200件危老條例只做了8年已經是4500件那院長你的想法\n\n22\n00:07:47,253 --> 00:07:56,260\n好這個跟委員報告總統也多次的指示要加強這個都跟整個推動的效率因為無論是居住的品質居住的安全\n\n23\n00:07:57,658 --> 00:08:16,453\n來自於我們對整個市容的重新的風貌我們都必須強力的推都更再來就是我們因應未來的推升內需擴大內需也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需的建設所以我們現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外我們在研擬一個自主都更讓\n\n24\n00:08:18,034 --> 00:08:40,263\n防護所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或是容積自己能夠享有更多的實際上可擁有的使用面積用這個方式來看這個我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到我們在推升內需的這個項目下現在強力的推動這個自主都更是一個新的方式\n\n25\n00:08:40,703 --> 00:09:08,164\n所以院長您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩件兩個方式一個是都更一個是危老之外我們現在要提出第三種的方法就是自主都更都更裡面有公辦都更跟自辦都更所以是放在都更下面的這一個自主都更自主都更他就不用跟建商合作他可能跟一個建金公司合作那建金公司背後有金融的支持可以給你營造可以給你金融支持可以給你這個整個審定的過程當中行政上的支持\n\n26\n00:09:09,064 --> 00:09:32,802\n讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價就可以轉換自己居住的環境我們用這個方式來想院長你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得是非常好因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好我相信大家都願意投入而且不用負擔那麼多的成本不過院長我跟你就剛剛的已經既有的兩種制度一個是都更一個是危老\n\n27\n00:09:33,462 --> 00:09:56,214\n我們從都更的這個部分來跟你就教的話我們整理的狀況像剛剛都更的兩個困境第一個是審議時間太長審議期程不明所以成本無法估計的這個部分就是來自於剛剛說的項目內容標準因為不明確所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次\n\n28\n00:09:57,214 --> 00:10:24,722\n一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會所以審議量能就是這樣那當然案件一直來舊的不去新的又來當然就越來越多去化很難嘛所以我想具體的建議其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分也就是讓他的審議標準有沒有機會是更明確一點\n\n29\n00:10:25,482 --> 00:10:43,298\n這是第一個都更審查標準內容明確化第二個增加都更的審議量能然後把期程能夠確定下來我認為在剛剛跟韋老這樣的比較之下其實都更最需要的是這一塊院長你的意見呢\n\n30\n00:10:44,479 --> 00:11:13,651\n內政部現在應該有很多相對的這個措施在補助地方再讓更容易親近這個政策同時我們也對這個全案管理的機構也要做一些資格上的放寬是不是請部長能夠說明這部分是謝謝委員的指教那院長有多次指示我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化那個委員剛剛所提到的目前所碰到的這個都更上面的不管是在行政流程上面或者是包括權力變換我們應該是明確化啦\n\n31\n00:11:14,371 --> 00:11:30,177\n對這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好\n\n32\n00:11:30,737 --> 00:11:52,869\n我非常同意我們就是想朝這個方向那第二個呢其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是許多地區的產權複雜整合礦日廢時那我們一樣實際去訪查其實兩個一個是對業者而言這麼複雜的產權那我沒有誘因啊我沒有政策誘因啊我為什麼要挑難的做我就不做了那另外一個是對民眾而言的話\n\n33\n00:11:53,729 --> 00:12:18,868\n我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更\n\n34\n00:12:19,828 --> 00:12:38,846\n政府現在已經在做工地的都更了這沒有問題嘛所以是私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入包括像現在其實這幾年下來我覺得駐都中心其實很受到大家的肯定如果駐都中心甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司這也是一個大家信任的單位甚至是剛剛\n\n35\n00:12:40,307 --> 00:12:57,503\n部長再提到的各縣市政府的都更單位這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更我認為是一個可以值得信號方式但是最後我也想藉著這個是總質詢是最正式立法院最正式的時間跟院長說\n\n36\n00:12:58,664 --> 00:13:18,074\n我覺得還有一個方法是在修正都更的這個管理條例之外還可以有一個是我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化其實院長我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產的話現在就是找房仲那個就是因為我們把它法制化\n\n37\n00:13:18,894 --> 00:13:36,335\n不動產經濟管理條例這樣子的狀況一旦有了專法之後他對產業的監控就嚴密甚至你要有專業資格才能進去你要考證照才能做這樣的行業甚至是後面連帶影響連公司的名稱都逐漸統一\n\n38\n00:13:37,296 --> 00:13:55,834\n社會就知道說我要做這件事情就找這個人所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業也能夠有一個法治專法來作為管理我覺得這樣一個是政府帶頭做一個是把這個產業法治化我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊院長你覺得\n\n39\n00:13:58,096 --> 00:14:12,769\n讓他管理機構能夠法治化這個是現在我們想像的這個目標跟方向我覺得我們明年對中央政府總計算當中對於剛剛所說的自主度跟業者我們有相對性的獎勵措施希望把這個產業給他扶植起來讓他能夠多增\n\n40\n00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:38,862\n多對這個產業我覺得先有一個專法來考考慮他的資格專法是一個方向放在這個都更條例裡面也是一個方向第一個就是讓他專業化對然後再來政府要能夠監督的到他那這樣子你把它變成這個產業化的時候他就像大家所說的他有一個一個證照一個比較好的部分才不會說是一個小信箱裡面隨便一個人就處理這個都更條例\n\n41\n00:14:39,142 --> 00:15:06,508\n沒錯就是這樣那大家要處理都更的這個民眾才會有信賴的對象所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面兩者我們都是可以接受的方向非常謝謝委員重視這個問題我想在新北市無論是委員所在的樹林山叢板橋還是雙永和等等都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更未來期待我們跟委員能夠委員在台北新北市我們在中央可以強力的合作把這個都更全面的展開\n\n42\n00:15:07,068 --> 00:15:17,327\n我想這是新北最需要的一個題目那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出不管是修正法律案或者是專法我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7537\t9740\t好 謝謝主席 我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢蘇委員好\n23510\t37429\t非常好 院長今天想跟您就教的是新北市的交通和都更那首先關於交通的部分我就特別要來跟您請教一條新北市很重要的軌道建設就是我們萬大樹林線\n38690\t60101\t萬大樹林縣從台北市進入到新北市綜合樹林土層其實對沿線交通居民的生活都非常重要所以我從2016年一路爭取到現在確實是看到了成果真的動起來包括捷運的柱子都立起來樹林人都說等一十年終於看到了捷運的柱子\n60521\t84586\t可是現在我們這個財務修正計畫第二期 萬民大樹林第二期的這個財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況因為他在去年11月交通部函送報到了行政院3月國發會還有行政院的交還處都通過審查啦可是那是3月 現在已經10月了整整7個月 院長\n85606\t105329\t到底為什麼沒有辦法核定這個沒有辦法核定其實影響我們後面很大包括這個絕標包括開工當然完工所以院長可不可以在這裡明確的告訴我們現在什麼狀況接下來要怎麼處理好 謝謝委員對新北市這個整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促\n107580\t118884\t土層樹林線這是一個非常重要的交通動脈之前原來合訂的工程款是比較少的大概只有550億左右後來因為經過時間的也拖長變更等等\n125126\t152016\t國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億加到770億這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅的修正中央的整個統籌分配稅款讓地方有大幅的挪移到地方上來所以我們現在正按照整個財政的集賜在做\n152816\t158331\t重新的這個衡量 到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款\n159249\t186471\t如果沒有辦法達到分擔那可能時間是要延長但我認為時間延長對地方的接受程度是比較低的所以我們就來看看按財政機制如何來算出來中央地方該核定的部分因為捷運到底是一個地方自治應辦事項的一部分院長真的因為你時間再繼續拖下去其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已如果再不核定770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道所以院長你能不能夠承諾\n187452\t202702\t我們現在已經等了七個月了七個月很長的一段時間了現在的這一個計畫案到底他 你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪\n203783\t232108\t我想你應該會更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕那跟委員報告雖然我們的預算的部分還沒有很確定那是修正計畫的部分那施工的部分它還是持續在走所以我們現在確保的是第一它的工程不要因此而延宕那第二當然對於未來整體的大概不是只有新北市啦部長我們其實還有B標 880B標其實因為這個預算財務修正計畫還沒有通過沒有核定所以我們不能絕標耶\n233828\t253834\t這個部分還沒有決標我清楚前面的工程沒有延到我們很感謝這個部分我們希望能夠趕快我們全國的整個捷運的預算大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量我們要先確認好這件事情之後我們會很快速的把這件事確定完之後我想這個部分我們會加速來進行\n254687\t280181\t加速是到什麼時候院長還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧現在維景主計總署就各縣市有類似的案子關於預算的分擔的進行做一個綜合性的一個整理那我認為明年度的中央政府總計算已經送到大院來審議那也會開始來審議明年度的中央政府總計算所以現在今年度我們該完成的工作我會要求今年度一定要完成\n280481\t296981\t今年度一定要完成 院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來 能快更快\n297441\t326177\t好 那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔 不能超過今年啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想 院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長\n327037\t340231\t你應該很清楚吧如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市的這個更新的話那老屋重建的方式現在大概有什麼啊這危老跟都更兩件危老跟都更兩件那危老跟都更有什麼差別\n341454\t368210\t危老的方式比較簡單一點都更的要件比較程序上條件上比較程序上連院長也是都這樣講大家的印象也是這樣實務上也是這樣我特別列了一個表格給院長這邊部長也上來了那參考一下你看看其實危老跟都更的差異從這個容積獎勵地價稅 房屋稅 土增稅 契稅其實所有的獎勵都是都更比較好\n369190\t390143\t可是院長都更和危老的案件數你有統計過嗎你有看過嗎你覺得大家會選什麼都更的數量還是不夠多最明顯的案例現在大家知道的其實很兩件很耳熟能詳一個是國賓飯店一個是六福客在都是大面積的都市想要老屋重建可是他們都選了什麼\n390543\t415553\t他們都選危老他們都選危老的狀況得到的效果是什麼國賓飯店六個月之內就核定了六福客餐甚至是兩個月之內就核定了所以我們實地去訪查了業者還有居民得到的狀況是為什麼大家不選都更而選危老其實很明顯的就是兩大原因第一個就是都更的審議時間太長\n418354\t443299\t審議其成不明所以成本無法負擔無法估計成本不明第二個就是產區產權地區的產權太複雜所以整合要曠日廢時其實大概就是這兩個狀況所以比較表如果把剛剛那個優劣的這個比較表繼續比較下去的話院長就可以看得出來其實你看你剛剛也說了都市更新的審查時間\n445061\t466673\t現在一般3到5目前是說聽說大概現在同一件案件大概5到7甚至可能更久這個院長你完全同意吧所以你剛剛說案件數量你看都市更新條例27年才完成1200件危老條例只做了8年已經是4500件那院長你的想法\n467253\t476260\t好 這個跟委員報告總統也多次的指示要加強這個都跟整個推動的效率因為無論是居住的品質 居住的安全\n477658\t496453\t來自於我們對整個市容的重新的風貌我們都必須強力的推都更再來就是我們因應未來的推升內需擴大內需也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需的建設所以我們現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外我們在研擬一個自主都更讓\n498034\t520263\t防護所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或是容積自己能夠享有更多的實際上可擁有的使用面積用這個方式來看這個我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到我們在推升內需的這個項目下現在強力的推動這個自主都更是一個新的方式\n520703\t548164\t所以院長您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩件兩個方式一個是都更一個是危老之外我們現在要提出第三種的方法就是自主都更都更裡面有公辦都更跟自辦都更所以是放在都更下面的這一個自主都更自主都更他就不用跟建商合作他可能跟一個建金公司合作那建金公司背後有金融的支持可以給你營造可以給你金融支持可以給你這個整個審定的過程當中行政上的支持\n549064\t572802\t讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價就可以轉換自己居住的環境我們用這個方式來想院長你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得是非常好因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好我相信大家都願意投入而且不用負擔那麼多的成本不過院長我跟你就剛剛的已經既有的兩種制度一個是都更一個是危老\n573462\t596214\t我們從都更的這個部分來跟你就教的話我們整理的狀況像剛剛都更的兩個困境第一個是審議時間太長審議期程不明所以成本無法估計的這個部分就是來自於剛剛說的項目內容標準因為不明確所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次\n597214\t624722\t一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會所以審議量能就是這樣那當然案件一直來舊的不去新的又來當然就越來越多去化很難嘛所以我想具體的建議其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分也就是讓他的審議標準有沒有機會是更明確一點\n625482\t643298\t這是第一個都更審查標準內容明確化第二個增加都更的審議量能然後把期程能夠確定下來我認為在剛剛跟韋老這樣的比較之下其實都更最需要的是這一塊院長你的意見呢\n644479\t673651\t內政部現在應該有很多相對的這個措施在補助地方再讓更容易親近這個政策同時我們也對這個全案管理的機構也要做一些資格上的放寬是不是請部長能夠說明這部分是 謝謝委員的指教那院長有多次指示我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化那個委員剛剛所提到的目前所碰到的這個都更上面的不管是在行政流程上面或者是包括權力變換我們應該是明確化啦\n674371\t690177\t對 這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好\n690737\t712869\t我非常同意我們就是想朝這個方向那第二個呢其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是許多地區的產權複雜整合礦日廢時那我們一樣實際去訪查其實兩個一個是對業者而言這麼複雜的產權那我沒有誘因啊我沒有政策誘因啊我為什麼要挑難的做我就不做了那另外一個是對民眾而言的話\n713729\t738868\t我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更\n739828\t758846\t政府現在已經在做工地的都更了這沒有問題嘛所以是私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入包括像現在其實這幾年下來我覺得駐都中心其實很受到大家的肯定如果駐都中心甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司這也是一個大家信任的單位甚至是剛剛\n760307\t777503\t部長再提到的各縣市政府的都更單位這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更我認為是一個可以值得信號方式但是最後我也想藉著這個是總質詢是最正式立法院最正式的時間跟院長說\n778664\t798074\t我覺得還有一個方法是在修正都更的這個管理條例之外還可以有一個是我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化其實院長我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產的話現在就是找房仲那個就是因為我們把它法制化\n798894\t816335\t不動產經濟管理條例這樣子的狀況一旦有了專法之後他對產業的監控就嚴密甚至你要有專業資格才能進去你要考證照才能做這樣的行業甚至是後面連帶影響連公司的名稱都逐漸統一\n817296\t835834\t社會就知道說我要做這件事情就找這個人所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業也能夠有一個法治專法來作為管理我覺得這樣一個是政府帶頭做一個是把這個產業法治化我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊院長你覺得\n838096\t852769\t讓他管理機構能夠法治化這個是現在我們想像的這個目標跟方向我覺得我們明年對中央政府總計算當中對於剛剛所說的自主度跟業者我們有相對性的獎勵措施希望把這個產業給他扶植起來讓他能夠多增\n853590\t878862\t多對這個產業我覺得先有一個專法來考考慮他的資格專法是一個方向放在這個都更條例裡面也是一個方向第一個就是讓他專業化對然後再來政府要能夠監督的到他那這樣子你把它變成這個產業化的時候他就像大家所說的他有一個一個證照一個比較好的部分才不會說是一個小信箱裡面隨便一個人就處理這個都更條例\n879142\t906508\t沒錯就是這樣那大家要處理都更的這個民眾才會有信賴的對象所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面兩者我們都是可以接受的方向非常謝謝委員重視這個問題我想在新北市無論是委員所在的樹林山叢板橋還是雙永和等等都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更未來期待我們跟委員能夠委員在台北新北市我們在中央可以強力的合作把這個都更全面的展開\n907068\t917327\t我想這是新北最需要的一個題目那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出不管是修正法律案或者是專法我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來\n","txt":"好 謝謝主席 我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢蘇委員好\n非常好 院長今天想跟您就教的是新北市的交通和都更那首先關於交通的部分我就特別要來跟您請教一條新北市很重要的軌道建設就是我們萬大樹林線\n萬大樹林縣從台北市進入到新北市綜合樹林土層其實對沿線交通居民的生活都非常重要所以我從2016年一路爭取到現在確實是看到了成果真的動起來包括捷運的柱子都立起來樹林人都說等一十年終於看到了捷運的柱子\n可是現在我們這個財務修正計畫第二期 萬民大樹林第二期的這個財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況因為他在去年11月交通部函送報到了行政院3月國發會還有行政院的交還處都通過審查啦可是那是3月 現在已經10月了整整7個月 院長\n到底為什麼沒有辦法核定這個沒有辦法核定其實影響我們後面很大包括這個絕標包括開工當然完工所以院長可不可以在這裡明確的告訴我們現在什麼狀況接下來要怎麼處理好 謝謝委員對新北市這個整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促\n土層樹林線這是一個非常重要的交通動脈之前原來合訂的工程款是比較少的大概只有550億左右後來因為經過時間的也拖長變更等等\n國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億加到770億這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅的修正中央的整個統籌分配稅款讓地方有大幅的挪移到地方上來所以我們現在正按照整個財政的集賜在做\n重新的這個衡量 到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款\n如果沒有辦法達到分擔那可能時間是要延長但我認為時間延長對地方的接受程度是比較低的所以我們就來看看按財政機制如何來算出來中央地方該核定的部分因為捷運到底是一個地方自治應辦事項的一部分院長真的因為你時間再繼續拖下去其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已如果再不核定770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道所以院長你能不能夠承諾\n我們現在已經等了七個月了七個月很長的一段時間了現在的這一個計畫案到底他 你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪\n我想你應該會更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕那跟委員報告雖然我們的預算的部分還沒有很確定那是修正計畫的部分那施工的部分它還是持續在走所以我們現在確保的是第一它的工程不要因此而延宕那第二當然對於未來整體的大概不是只有新北市啦部長我們其實還有B標 880B標其實因為這個預算財務修正計畫還沒有通過沒有核定所以我們不能絕標耶\n這個部分還沒有決標我清楚前面的工程沒有延到我們很感謝這個部分我們希望能夠趕快我們全國的整個捷運的預算大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量我們要先確認好這件事情之後我們會很快速的把這件事確定完之後我想這個部分我們會加速來進行\n加速是到什麼時候院長還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧現在維景主計總署就各縣市有類似的案子關於預算的分擔的進行做一個綜合性的一個整理那我認為明年度的中央政府總計算已經送到大院來審議那也會開始來審議明年度的中央政府總計算所以現在今年度我們該完成的工作我會要求今年度一定要完成\n今年度一定要完成 院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來 能快更快\n好 那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔 不能超過今年啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想 院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長\n你應該很清楚吧如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市的這個更新的話那老屋重建的方式現在大概有什麼啊這危老跟都更兩件危老跟都更兩件那危老跟都更有什麼差別\n危老的方式比較簡單一點都更的要件比較程序上條件上比較程序上連院長也是都這樣講大家的印象也是這樣實務上也是這樣我特別列了一個表格給院長這邊部長也上來了那參考一下你看看其實危老跟都更的差異從這個容積獎勵地價稅 房屋稅 土增稅 契稅其實所有的獎勵都是都更比較好\n可是院長都更和危老的案件數你有統計過嗎你有看過嗎你覺得大家會選什麼都更的數量還是不夠多最明顯的案例現在大家知道的其實很兩件很耳熟能詳一個是國賓飯店一個是六福客在都是大面積的都市想要老屋重建可是他們都選了什麼\n他們都選危老他們都選危老的狀況得到的效果是什麼國賓飯店六個月之內就核定了六福客餐甚至是兩個月之內就核定了所以我們實地去訪查了業者還有居民得到的狀況是為什麼大家不選都更而選危老其實很明顯的就是兩大原因第一個就是都更的審議時間太長\n審議其成不明所以成本無法負擔無法估計成本不明第二個就是產區產權地區的產權太複雜所以整合要曠日廢時其實大概就是這兩個狀況所以比較表如果把剛剛那個優劣的這個比較表繼續比較下去的話院長就可以看得出來其實你看你剛剛也說了都市更新的審查時間\n現在一般3到5目前是說聽說大概現在同一件案件大概5到7甚至可能更久這個院長你完全同意吧所以你剛剛說案件數量你看都市更新條例27年才完成1200件危老條例只做了8年已經是4500件那院長你的想法\n好 這個跟委員報告總統也多次的指示要加強這個都跟整個推動的效率因為無論是居住的品質 居住的安全\n來自於我們對整個市容的重新的風貌我們都必須強力的推都更再來就是我們因應未來的推升內需擴大內需也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需的建設所以我們現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外我們在研擬一個自主都更讓\n防護所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或是容積自己能夠享有更多的實際上可擁有的使用面積用這個方式來看這個我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到我們在推升內需的這個項目下現在強力的推動這個自主都更是一個新的方式\n所以院長您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩件兩個方式一個是都更一個是危老之外我們現在要提出第三種的方法就是自主都更都更裡面有公辦都更跟自辦都更所以是放在都更下面的這一個自主都更自主都更他就不用跟建商合作他可能跟一個建金公司合作那建金公司背後有金融的支持可以給你營造可以給你金融支持可以給你這個整個審定的過程當中行政上的支持\n讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價就可以轉換自己居住的環境我們用這個方式來想院長你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得是非常好因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好我相信大家都願意投入而且不用負擔那麼多的成本不過院長我跟你就剛剛的已經既有的兩種制度一個是都更一個是危老\n我們從都更的這個部分來跟你就教的話我們整理的狀況像剛剛都更的兩個困境第一個是審議時間太長審議期程不明所以成本無法估計的這個部分就是來自於剛剛說的項目內容標準因為不明確所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次\n一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會所以審議量能就是這樣那當然案件一直來舊的不去新的又來當然就越來越多去化很難嘛所以我想具體的建議其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分也就是讓他的審議標準有沒有機會是更明確一點\n這是第一個都更審查標準內容明確化第二個增加都更的審議量能然後把期程能夠確定下來我認為在剛剛跟韋老這樣的比較之下其實都更最需要的是這一塊院長你的意見呢\n內政部現在應該有很多相對的這個措施在補助地方再讓更容易親近這個政策同時我們也對這個全案管理的機構也要做一些資格上的放寬是不是請部長能夠說明這部分是 謝謝委員的指教那院長有多次指示我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化那個委員剛剛所提到的目前所碰到的這個都更上面的不管是在行政流程上面或者是包括權力變換我們應該是明確化啦\n對 這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好\n我非常同意我們就是想朝這個方向那第二個呢其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是許多地區的產權複雜整合礦日廢時那我們一樣實際去訪查其實兩個一個是對業者而言這麼複雜的產權那我沒有誘因啊我沒有政策誘因啊我為什麼要挑難的做我就不做了那另外一個是對民眾而言的話\n我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更\n政府現在已經在做工地的都更了這沒有問題嘛所以是私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入包括像現在其實這幾年下來我覺得駐都中心其實很受到大家的肯定如果駐都中心甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司這也是一個大家信任的單位甚至是剛剛\n部長再提到的各縣市政府的都更單位這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更我認為是一個可以值得信號方式但是最後我也想藉著這個是總質詢是最正式立法院最正式的時間跟院長說\n我覺得還有一個方法是在修正都更的這個管理條例之外還可以有一個是我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化其實院長我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產的話現在就是找房仲那個就是因為我們把它法制化\n不動產經濟管理條例這樣子的狀況一旦有了專法之後他對產業的監控就嚴密甚至你要有專業資格才能進去你要考證照才能做這樣的行業甚至是後面連帶影響連公司的名稱都逐漸統一\n社會就知道說我要做這件事情就找這個人所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業也能夠有一個法治專法來作為管理我覺得這樣一個是政府帶頭做一個是把這個產業法治化我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊院長你覺得\n讓他管理機構能夠法治化這個是現在我們想像的這個目標跟方向我覺得我們明年對中央政府總計算當中對於剛剛所說的自主度跟業者我們有相對性的獎勵措施希望把這個產業給他扶植起來讓他能夠多增\n多對這個產業我覺得先有一個專法來考考慮他的資格專法是一個方向放在這個都更條例裡面也是一個方向第一個就是讓他專業化對然後再來政府要能夠監督的到他那這樣子你把它變成這個產業化的時候他就像大家所說的他有一個一個證照一個比較好的部分才不會說是一個小信箱裡面隨便一個人就處理這個都更條例\n沒錯就是這樣那大家要處理都更的這個民眾才會有信賴的對象所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面兩者我們都是可以接受的方向非常謝謝委員重視這個問題我想在新北市無論是委員所在的樹林山叢板橋還是雙永和等等都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更未來期待我們跟委員能夠委員在台北新北市我們在中央可以強力的合作把這個都更全面的展開\n我想這是新北最需要的一個題目那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出不管是修正法律案或者是專法我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.537 --> 00:09.740\n好謝謝主席我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢蘇委員好\n\n00:23.510 --> 00:37.429\n非常好院長今天想跟您就教的是新北市的交通和都更那首先關於交通的部分我就特別要來跟您請教一條新北市很重要的軌道建設就是我們萬大樹林線\n\n00:38.690 --> 01:00.101\n萬大樹林縣從台北市進入到新北市綜合樹林土層其實對沿線交通居民的生活都非常重要所以我從2016年一路爭取到現在確實是看到了成果真的動起來包括捷運的柱子都立起來樹林人都說等一十年終於看到了捷運的柱子\n\n01:00.521 --> 01:24.586\n可是現在我們這個財務修正計畫第二期萬民大樹林第二期的這個財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況因為他在去年11月交通部函送報到了行政院3月國發會還有行政院的交還處都通過審查啦可是那是3月現在已經10月了整整7個月院長\n\n01:25.606 --> 01:45.329\n到底為什麼沒有辦法核定這個沒有辦法核定其實影響我們後面很大包括這個絕標包括開工當然完工所以院長可不可以在這裡明確的告訴我們現在什麼狀況接下來要怎麼處理好謝謝委員對新北市這個整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促\n\n01:47.580 --> 01:58.884\n土層樹林線這是一個非常重要的交通動脈之前原來合訂的工程款是比較少的大概只有550億左右後來因為經過時間的也拖長變更等等\n\n02:05.126 --> 02:32.016\n國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億加到770億這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅的修正中央的整個統籌分配稅款讓地方有大幅的挪移到地方上來所以我們現在正按照整個財政的集賜在做\n\n02:32.816 --> 02:38.331\n重新的這個衡量到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款\n\n02:39.249 --> 03:06.471\n如果沒有辦法達到分擔那可能時間是要延長但我認為時間延長對地方的接受程度是比較低的所以我們就來看看按財政機制如何來算出來中央地方該核定的部分因為捷運到底是一個地方自治應辦事項的一部分院長真的因為你時間再繼續拖下去其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已如果再不核定770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道所以院長你能不能夠承諾\n\n03:07.452 --> 03:22.702\n我們現在已經等了七個月了七個月很長的一段時間了現在的這一個計畫案到底他你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪\n\n03:23.783 --> 03:52.108\n我想你應該會更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕那跟委員報告雖然我們的預算的部分還沒有很確定那是修正計畫的部分那施工的部分它還是持續在走所以我們現在確保的是第一它的工程不要因此而延宕那第二當然對於未來整體的大概不是只有新北市啦部長我們其實還有B標880B標其實因為這個預算財務修正計畫還沒有通過沒有核定所以我們不能絕標耶\n\n03:53.828 --> 04:13.834\n這個部分還沒有決標我清楚前面的工程沒有延到我們很感謝這個部分我們希望能夠趕快我們全國的整個捷運的預算大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量我們要先確認好這件事情之後我們會很快速的把這件事確定完之後我想這個部分我們會加速來進行\n\n04:14.687 --> 04:40.181\n加速是到什麼時候院長還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧現在維景主計總署就各縣市有類似的案子關於預算的分擔的進行做一個綜合性的一個整理那我認為明年度的中央政府總計算已經送到大院來審議那也會開始來審議明年度的中央政府總計算所以現在今年度我們該完成的工作我會要求今年度一定要完成\n\n04:40.481 --> 04:56.981\n今年度一定要完成院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來能快更快\n\n04:57.441 --> 05:26.177\n好那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔不能超過今年啦好謝謝部長謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長\n\n05:27.037 --> 05:40.231\n你應該很清楚吧如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市的這個更新的話那老屋重建的方式現在大概有什麼啊這危老跟都更兩件危老跟都更兩件那危老跟都更有什麼差別\n\n05:41.454 --> 06:08.210\n危老的方式比較簡單一點都更的要件比較程序上條件上比較程序上連院長也是都這樣講大家的印象也是這樣實務上也是這樣我特別列了一個表格給院長這邊部長也上來了那參考一下你看看其實危老跟都更的差異從這個容積獎勵地價稅房屋稅土增稅契稅其實所有的獎勵都是都更比較好\n\n06:09.190 --> 06:30.143\n可是院長都更和危老的案件數你有統計過嗎你有看過嗎你覺得大家會選什麼都更的數量還是不夠多最明顯的案例現在大家知道的其實很兩件很耳熟能詳一個是國賓飯店一個是六福客在都是大面積的都市想要老屋重建可是他們都選了什麼\n\n06:30.543 --> 06:55.553\n他們都選危老他們都選危老的狀況得到的效果是什麼國賓飯店六個月之內就核定了六福客餐甚至是兩個月之內就核定了所以我們實地去訪查了業者還有居民得到的狀況是為什麼大家不選都更而選危老其實很明顯的就是兩大原因第一個就是都更的審議時間太長\n\n06:58.354 --> 07:23.299\n審議其成不明所以成本無法負擔無法估計成本不明第二個就是產區產權地區的產權太複雜所以整合要曠日廢時其實大概就是這兩個狀況所以比較表如果把剛剛那個優劣的這個比較表繼續比較下去的話院長就可以看得出來其實你看你剛剛也說了都市更新的審查時間\n\n07:25.061 --> 07:46.673\n現在一般3到5目前是說聽說大概現在同一件案件大概5到7甚至可能更久這個院長你完全同意吧所以你剛剛說案件數量你看都市更新條例27年才完成1200件危老條例只做了8年已經是4500件那院長你的想法\n\n07:47.253 --> 07:56.260\n好這個跟委員報告總統也多次的指示要加強這個都跟整個推動的效率因為無論是居住的品質居住的安全\n\n07:57.658 --> 08:16.453\n來自於我們對整個市容的重新的風貌我們都必須強力的推都更再來就是我們因應未來的推升內需擴大內需也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需的建設所以我們現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外我們在研擬一個自主都更讓\n\n08:18.034 --> 08:40.263\n防護所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或是容積自己能夠享有更多的實際上可擁有的使用面積用這個方式來看這個我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到我們在推升內需的這個項目下現在強力的推動這個自主都更是一個新的方式\n\n08:40.703 --> 09:08.164\n所以院長您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩件兩個方式一個是都更一個是危老之外我們現在要提出第三種的方法就是自主都更都更裡面有公辦都更跟自辦都更所以是放在都更下面的這一個自主都更自主都更他就不用跟建商合作他可能跟一個建金公司合作那建金公司背後有金融的支持可以給你營造可以給你金融支持可以給你這個整個審定的過程當中行政上的支持\n\n09:09.064 --> 09:32.802\n讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價就可以轉換自己居住的環境我們用這個方式來想院長你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得是非常好因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好我相信大家都願意投入而且不用負擔那麼多的成本不過院長我跟你就剛剛的已經既有的兩種制度一個是都更一個是危老\n\n09:33.462 --> 09:56.214\n我們從都更的這個部分來跟你就教的話我們整理的狀況像剛剛都更的兩個困境第一個是審議時間太長審議期程不明所以成本無法估計的這個部分就是來自於剛剛說的項目內容標準因為不明確所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次\n\n09:57.214 --> 10:24.722\n一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會所以審議量能就是這樣那當然案件一直來舊的不去新的又來當然就越來越多去化很難嘛所以我想具體的建議其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分也就是讓他的審議標準有沒有機會是更明確一點\n\n10:25.482 --> 10:43.298\n這是第一個都更審查標準內容明確化第二個增加都更的審議量能然後把期程能夠確定下來我認為在剛剛跟韋老這樣的比較之下其實都更最需要的是這一塊院長你的意見呢\n\n10:44.479 --> 11:13.651\n內政部現在應該有很多相對的這個措施在補助地方再讓更容易親近這個政策同時我們也對這個全案管理的機構也要做一些資格上的放寬是不是請部長能夠說明這部分是謝謝委員的指教那院長有多次指示我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化那個委員剛剛所提到的目前所碰到的這個都更上面的不管是在行政流程上面或者是包括權力變換我們應該是明確化啦\n\n11:14.371 --> 11:30.177\n對這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好\n\n11:30.737 --> 11:52.869\n我非常同意我們就是想朝這個方向那第二個呢其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是許多地區的產權複雜整合礦日廢時那我們一樣實際去訪查其實兩個一個是對業者而言這麼複雜的產權那我沒有誘因啊我沒有政策誘因啊我為什麼要挑難的做我就不做了那另外一個是對民眾而言的話\n\n11:53.729 --> 12:18.868\n我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更\n\n12:19.828 --> 12:38.846\n政府現在已經在做工地的都更了這沒有問題嘛所以是私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入包括像現在其實這幾年下來我覺得駐都中心其實很受到大家的肯定如果駐都中心甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司這也是一個大家信任的單位甚至是剛剛\n\n12:40.307 --> 12:57.503\n部長再提到的各縣市政府的都更單位這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更我認為是一個可以值得信號方式但是最後我也想藉著這個是總質詢是最正式立法院最正式的時間跟院長說\n\n12:58.664 --> 13:18.074\n我覺得還有一個方法是在修正都更的這個管理條例之外還可以有一個是我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化其實院長我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產的話現在就是找房仲那個就是因為我們把它法制化\n\n13:18.894 --> 13:36.335\n不動產經濟管理條例這樣子的狀況一旦有了專法之後他對產業的監控就嚴密甚至你要有專業資格才能進去你要考證照才能做這樣的行業甚至是後面連帶影響連公司的名稱都逐漸統一\n\n13:37.296 --> 13:55.834\n社會就知道說我要做這件事情就找這個人所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業也能夠有一個法治專法來作為管理我覺得這樣一個是政府帶頭做一個是把這個產業法治化我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊院長你覺得\n\n13:58.096 --> 14:12.769\n讓他管理機構能夠法治化這個是現在我們想像的這個目標跟方向我覺得我們明年對中央政府總計算當中對於剛剛所說的自主度跟業者我們有相對性的獎勵措施希望把這個產業給他扶植起來讓他能夠多增\n\n14:13.590 --> 14:38.862\n多對這個產業我覺得先有一個專法來考考慮他的資格專法是一個方向放在這個都更條例裡面也是一個方向第一個就是讓他專業化對然後再來政府要能夠監督的到他那這樣子你把它變成這個產業化的時候他就像大家所說的他有一個一個證照一個比較好的部分才不會說是一個小信箱裡面隨便一個人就處理這個都更條例\n\n14:39.142 --> 15:06.508\n沒錯就是這樣那大家要處理都更的這個民眾才會有信賴的對象所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面兩者我們都是可以接受的方向非常謝謝委員重視這個問題我想在新北市無論是委員所在的樹林山叢板橋還是雙永和等等都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更未來期待我們跟委員能夠委員在台北新北市我們在中央可以強力的合作把這個都更全面的展開\n\n15:07.068 --> 15:17.327\n我想這是新北最需要的一個題目那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出不管是修正法律案或者是專法我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.537,"end":9.74,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢蘇委員好"},{"start":23.51,"end":37.429,"text":"非常好 院長今天想跟您就教的是新北市的交通和都更那首先關於交通的部分我就特別要來跟您請教一條新北市很重要的軌道建設就是我們萬大樹林線"},{"start":38.69,"end":60.101,"text":"萬大樹林縣從台北市進入到新北市綜合樹林土層其實對沿線交通居民的生活都非常重要所以我從2016年一路爭取到現在確實是看到了成果真的動起來包括捷運的柱子都立起來樹林人都說等一十年終於看到了捷運的柱子"},{"start":60.521,"end":84.586,"text":"可是現在我們這個財務修正計畫第二期 萬民大樹林第二期的這個財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況因為他在去年11月交通部函送報到了行政院3月國發會還有行政院的交還處都通過審查啦可是那是3月 現在已經10月了整整7個月 院長"},{"start":85.606,"end":105.329,"text":"到底為什麼沒有辦法核定這個沒有辦法核定其實影響我們後面很大包括這個絕標包括開工當然完工所以院長可不可以在這裡明確的告訴我們現在什麼狀況接下來要怎麼處理好 謝謝委員對新北市這個整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促"},{"start":107.58,"end":118.884,"text":"土層樹林線這是一個非常重要的交通動脈之前原來合訂的工程款是比較少的大概只有550億左右後來因為經過時間的也拖長變更等等"},{"start":125.126,"end":152.016,"text":"國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億加到770億這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅的修正中央的整個統籌分配稅款讓地方有大幅的挪移到地方上來所以我們現在正按照整個財政的集賜在做"},{"start":152.816,"end":158.331,"text":"重新的這個衡量 到底地方跟中央要如何來分擔這個工程款"},{"start":159.249,"end":186.471,"text":"如果沒有辦法達到分擔那可能時間是要延長但我認為時間延長對地方的接受程度是比較低的所以我們就來看看按財政機制如何來算出來中央地方該核定的部分因為捷運到底是一個地方自治應辦事項的一部分院長真的因為你時間再繼續拖下去其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已如果再不核定770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道所以院長你能不能夠承諾"},{"start":187.452,"end":202.702,"text":"我們現在已經等了七個月了七個月很長的一段時間了現在的這一個計畫案到底他 你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以讓我們有一個結果我先請部長說明一下我們就來做一個跟委員打訪"},{"start":203.783,"end":232.108,"text":"我想你應該會更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕那跟委員報告雖然我們的預算的部分還沒有很確定那是修正計畫的部分那施工的部分它還是持續在走所以我們現在確保的是第一它的工程不要因此而延宕那第二當然對於未來整體的大概不是只有新北市啦部長我們其實還有B標 880B標其實因為這個預算財務修正計畫還沒有通過沒有核定所以我們不能絕標耶"},{"start":233.828,"end":253.834,"text":"這個部分還沒有決標我清楚前面的工程沒有延到我們很感謝這個部分我們希望能夠趕快我們全國的整個捷運的預算大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量我們要先確認好這件事情之後我們會很快速的把這件事確定完之後我想這個部分我們會加速來進行"},{"start":254.687,"end":280.181,"text":"加速是到什麼時候院長還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧現在維景主計總署就各縣市有類似的案子關於預算的分擔的進行做一個綜合性的一個整理那我認為明年度的中央政府總計算已經送到大院來審議那也會開始來審議明年度的中央政府總計算所以現在今年度我們該完成的工作我會要求今年度一定要完成"},{"start":280.481,"end":296.981,"text":"今年度一定要完成 院長現在已經是10月中旬了今年一定會核定我們一定把它核定我們就以你今天在備詢台上面這邊給我的回答今年底一定要核定完成如果算出來 能快更快"},{"start":297.441,"end":326.177,"text":"好 那我現在就不是盡速核定而已喔我們是希望用最快的速度核定喔而且不能拖於今年喔 不能超過今年啦好 謝謝部長 謝謝院長那接下來我想要跟您請教的是新北市的都更的問題我想 院長你跟我一樣是在雙北地區的居民嘛所以不管是台北市還是新北市我們都因為發展的早所以房子也早蓋那當然現在就已經偏老所以居住環境也沒有那麼好那院長"},{"start":327.037,"end":340.231,"text":"你應該很清楚吧如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市的這個更新的話那老屋重建的方式現在大概有什麼啊這危老跟都更兩件危老跟都更兩件那危老跟都更有什麼差別"},{"start":341.454,"end":368.21,"text":"危老的方式比較簡單一點都更的要件比較程序上條件上比較程序上連院長也是都這樣講大家的印象也是這樣實務上也是這樣我特別列了一個表格給院長這邊部長也上來了那參考一下你看看其實危老跟都更的差異從這個容積獎勵地價稅 房屋稅 土增稅 契稅其實所有的獎勵都是都更比較好"},{"start":369.19,"end":390.143,"text":"可是院長都更和危老的案件數你有統計過嗎你有看過嗎你覺得大家會選什麼都更的數量還是不夠多最明顯的案例現在大家知道的其實很兩件很耳熟能詳一個是國賓飯店一個是六福客在都是大面積的都市想要老屋重建可是他們都選了什麼"},{"start":390.543,"end":415.553,"text":"他們都選危老他們都選危老的狀況得到的效果是什麼國賓飯店六個月之內就核定了六福客餐甚至是兩個月之內就核定了所以我們實地去訪查了業者還有居民得到的狀況是為什麼大家不選都更而選危老其實很明顯的就是兩大原因第一個就是都更的審議時間太長"},{"start":418.354,"end":443.299,"text":"審議其成不明所以成本無法負擔無法估計成本不明第二個就是產區產權地區的產權太複雜所以整合要曠日廢時其實大概就是這兩個狀況所以比較表如果把剛剛那個優劣的這個比較表繼續比較下去的話院長就可以看得出來其實你看你剛剛也說了都市更新的審查時間"},{"start":445.061,"end":466.673,"text":"現在一般3到5目前是說聽說大概現在同一件案件大概5到7甚至可能更久這個院長你完全同意吧所以你剛剛說案件數量你看都市更新條例27年才完成1200件危老條例只做了8年已經是4500件那院長你的想法"},{"start":467.253,"end":476.26,"text":"好 這個跟委員報告總統也多次的指示要加強這個都跟整個推動的效率因為無論是居住的品質 居住的安全"},{"start":477.658,"end":496.453,"text":"來自於我們對整個市容的重新的風貌我們都必須強力的推都更再來就是我們因應未來的推升內需擴大內需也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需的建設所以我們現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外我們在研擬一個自主都更讓"},{"start":498.034,"end":520.263,"text":"防護所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或是容積自己能夠享有更多的實際上可擁有的使用面積用這個方式來看這個我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到我們在推升內需的這個項目下現在強力的推動這個自主都更是一個新的方式"},{"start":520.703,"end":548.164,"text":"所以院長您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩件兩個方式一個是都更一個是危老之外我們現在要提出第三種的方法就是自主都更都更裡面有公辦都更跟自辦都更所以是放在都更下面的這一個自主都更自主都更他就不用跟建商合作他可能跟一個建金公司合作那建金公司背後有金融的支持可以給你營造可以給你金融支持可以給你這個整個審定的過程當中行政上的支持"},{"start":549.064,"end":572.802,"text":"讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價就可以轉換自己居住的環境我們用這個方式來想院長你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得是非常好因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好我相信大家都願意投入而且不用負擔那麼多的成本不過院長我跟你就剛剛的已經既有的兩種制度一個是都更一個是危老"},{"start":573.462,"end":596.214,"text":"我們從都更的這個部分來跟你就教的話我們整理的狀況像剛剛都更的兩個困境第一個是審議時間太長審議期程不明所以成本無法估計的這個部分就是來自於剛剛說的項目內容標準因為不明確所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次"},{"start":597.214,"end":624.722,"text":"一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會所以審議量能就是這樣那當然案件一直來舊的不去新的又來當然就越來越多去化很難嘛所以我想具體的建議其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分也就是讓他的審議標準有沒有機會是更明確一點"},{"start":625.482,"end":643.298,"text":"這是第一個都更審查標準內容明確化第二個增加都更的審議量能然後把期程能夠確定下來我認為在剛剛跟韋老這樣的比較之下其實都更最需要的是這一塊院長你的意見呢"},{"start":644.479,"end":673.651,"text":"內政部現在應該有很多相對的這個措施在補助地方再讓更容易親近這個政策同時我們也對這個全案管理的機構也要做一些資格上的放寬是不是請部長能夠說明這部分是 謝謝委員的指教那院長有多次指示我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化那個委員剛剛所提到的目前所碰到的這個都更上面的不管是在行政流程上面或者是包括權力變換我們應該是明確化啦"},{"start":674.371,"end":690.177,"text":"對 這樣子的話呢也可以來那個鼓勵更多人加入那同時呢我們也朝著地方政府他們也願意來輔導有這麼多的都更號的相關的機制那這個部分恐怕就朝著這個都市更新的條例上的研議要修正發展可能比較好"},{"start":690.737,"end":712.869,"text":"我非常同意我們就是想朝這個方向那第二個呢其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是許多地區的產權複雜整合礦日廢時那我們一樣實際去訪查其實兩個一個是對業者而言這麼複雜的產權那我沒有誘因啊我沒有政策誘因啊我為什麼要挑難的做我就不做了那另外一個是對民眾而言的話"},{"start":713.729,"end":738.868,"text":"我要找誰做啊我如果是要督更的話大家現在都常常看到嘛就是你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙然後上面寫說你想要老屋翻新嗎請電卓先生然後一個電話請電劉小姐一個電話那我到底能不能夠相信他這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢所以我認為其實政府如果能夠投入拜託投入這種私地的督更"},{"start":739.828,"end":758.846,"text":"政府現在已經在做工地的都更了這沒有問題嘛所以是私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入包括像現在其實這幾年下來我覺得駐都中心其實很受到大家的肯定如果駐都中心甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司這也是一個大家信任的單位甚至是剛剛"},{"start":760.307,"end":777.503,"text":"部長再提到的各縣市政府的都更單位這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更我認為是一個可以值得信號方式但是最後我也想藉著這個是總質詢是最正式立法院最正式的時間跟院長說"},{"start":778.664,"end":798.074,"text":"我覺得還有一個方法是在修正都更的這個管理條例之外還可以有一個是我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化其實院長我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產的話現在就是找房仲那個就是因為我們把它法制化"},{"start":798.894,"end":816.335,"text":"不動產經濟管理條例這樣子的狀況一旦有了專法之後他對產業的監控就嚴密甚至你要有專業資格才能進去你要考證照才能做這樣的行業甚至是後面連帶影響連公司的名稱都逐漸統一"},{"start":817.296,"end":835.834,"text":"社會就知道說我要做這件事情就找這個人所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業也能夠有一個法治專法來作為管理我覺得這樣一個是政府帶頭做一個是把這個產業法治化我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊院長你覺得"},{"start":838.096,"end":852.769,"text":"讓他管理機構能夠法治化這個是現在我們想像的這個目標跟方向我覺得我們明年對中央政府總計算當中對於剛剛所說的自主度跟業者我們有相對性的獎勵措施希望把這個產業給他扶植起來讓他能夠多增"},{"start":853.59,"end":878.862,"text":"多對這個產業我覺得先有一個專法來考考慮他的資格專法是一個方向放在這個都更條例裡面也是一個方向第一個就是讓他專業化對然後再來政府要能夠監督的到他那這樣子你把它變成這個產業化的時候他就像大家所說的他有一個一個證照一個比較好的部分才不會說是一個小信箱裡面隨便一個人就處理這個都更條例"},{"start":879.142,"end":906.508,"text":"沒錯就是這樣那大家要處理都更的這個民眾才會有信賴的對象所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面兩者我們都是可以接受的方向非常謝謝委員重視這個問題我想在新北市無論是委員所在的樹林山叢板橋還是雙永和等等都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更未來期待我們跟委員能夠委員在台北新北市我們在中央可以強力的合作把這個都更全面的展開"},{"start":907.068,"end":917.327,"text":"我想這是新北最需要的一個題目那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出不管是修正法律案或者是專法我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":1054,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（14時30分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長好。今天想跟您就教新北市的交通和都更，首先關於交通的部分，我特別跟您請教一條新北市很重要的軌道建設，就是萬大樹林線，萬大樹林線從臺北市進入到新北市中和、樹林、土城，其實對沿線交通及居民的生活都非常重要，所以我從2016年一路爭取。到現在確實是看到了成果，真的動起來，包括捷運的柱子都立起來，樹林人都說等20年終於看到了捷運的柱子。可是現在萬大樹林線第2期的財務修正計畫顯然是有狀況，因為去年11月交通部函報到行政院；3月國發會還有行政院的交環處都通過審查了，可是那是3月，現在已經10月了，整整7個月！院長，到底為什麼沒有辦法核定？這個沒有辦法核定，其實對我們後續的影響很大，包括決標，包括開工，當然還有完工。所以院長，可不可以在這裡明確地告訴我們現在是什麼狀況、接下來要怎麼處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對新北市整體性交通的重視跟一向的督促。"],["蘇委員巧慧：當然，這一條非常重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：土城樹林線，這是一個非常重要的交通動脈，之前原來核定的工程款是比較少的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：大概只有五百……"],["蘇委員巧慧：555億。"],["卓院長榮泰：五百五十億左右。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：後來經過時間的拖長、變更等等，那麼國發會在重新審定的過程當中已經加了220億，加到770億。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們很高興聽到這個。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個案子確實現在在行政院裡面，但是我們之前因為剛好財政收支劃分法在大幅修正，中央整個統籌分配稅款大幅挪移到地方上，所以我們現在正按照整個財政的級次在做重新的衡量，到底地方跟中央要如何分擔這個工程款。如果沒有辦法達到分擔，那可能時間要延長，但我認為時間延長對地方而言的接受程度是比較低的，所以我們就來看看按財政級次如何算出來中央、地方該核定的部分，因為捷運到底是地方自治應辦事項的一部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：真的，因為時間再繼續拖下去，其實工程費用就只會一直在漲而已，如果再不核定，770億到底夠不夠用其實我們也不知道。所以院長，你能不能夠承諾，我們現在已經等7個月了，7個月是很長的一段時間了，現在的這個計畫案你可不可以預估大概什麼時候可以有一個結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，先請部長說明一下，我們就來跟委員答復。"],["陳部長世凱：跟委員報告，我想你應該更擔心的是工程會不會因此而延宕，雖然我們的預算部分還沒有很確定，那是修正計畫的部分，而施工的部分還是持續在走，所以我們現在確保的是，第一，它的工程不要因此而延宕；第二，當然，對於未來整體的，大概不是只有新北市，整體的所有……"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，我們其實還有880B標，因為這個財務修正計畫的預算還沒有通過、沒有核定，所以我們不能決標耶！"],["陳部長世凱：是，這個部分還沒有決標，我清楚，但是前面的工程其實還在施工……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！前面的工程沒有延宕，我們很感謝。"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們希望能夠趕快，對於全國整個捷運的預算，大概交通部能夠負擔多少的力量，要先確認好這件事情，我們會很快速地把這件事確定完之後，我想這個部分我們會加速進行。"],["蘇委員巧慧：加速是到什麼時候？院長，還是希望你可以給一個承諾吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：是，現在我也請主計總處就各縣市有類似的案子，關於預算的分擔情形做綜合性的一個整理。我認為，明年度的中央政府總預算已經送到大院審查，也一定會開始來審議，所以對於今年度我們該完成的工作，我會要求今年度一定要完成。"],["蘇委員巧慧：今年度一定要完成？院長，現在已經是10月中旬了，今年一定會核定？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一定把它核定。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們就以你今天在備詢臺這邊給我的回答，今年底一定要核定完成。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的。跟委員報告，如果我們算出來能快，就會更快。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，那現在就不是我在PPT上寫的「儘速核定」而已，而是希望用最快的速度核定，而且不能超過今年。"],["卓院長榮泰：沒問題。"],["蘇委員巧慧：謝謝部長，謝謝院長。","接下來我想跟你請教的是新北市的都更問題。院長跟我一樣是雙北地區的居民，不管是臺北市或新北市，都因為發展得早，房子也早蓋，當然現在就已經偏老了，所以居住環境也沒有那麼好。院長應該很清楚，如果老屋要重建才能帶動整個都市更新的話，那麼老屋重建的方式現在大概有幾種？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是危老和都更。"],["蘇委員巧慧：危老和都更有什麼差別？"],["卓院長榮泰：危老的方式比較簡單一點，都更的要件程序上、條件上比較多。"],["蘇委員巧慧：不只院長這樣講，大家的印象也是這樣，實務上也是這樣。我特別列了一個表格請院長和部長參考一下。你看看，其實危老跟都更的差異從容積獎勵、地價稅、房屋稅、土增稅到契稅，所有的獎勵都是都更比較好，可是院長，都更和危老的案件數你有統計過或看過嗎？你覺得大家會選什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：都更的數量還是不夠多。"],["蘇委員巧慧：最明顯的就是最近大家耳熟能詳的兩個案例，一個是國賓飯店，一個是六福客棧，都是大面積的都市老屋重建，可是他們都選了什麼？他們都選危老！他們選危老得到的效果是什麼？國賓飯店6個月之內就核定了，六福客棧甚至是2個月之內就核定了！所以我們實地去訪查了業者和居民，詢問為什麼大家不選都更，而選危老？得到的狀況其實很明顯的就是兩大原因：第一個就是都更的審議時間太長、審議期程不明，所以成本無法負擔、無法估計，因為成本不明嘛！第二個就是許多地區產權太複雜，整合起來曠日廢時。其實大概就是這兩個狀況。","所以如果按照剛剛那個優劣表繼續比較下去的話，院長就可以看得出來，你剛剛也說了，都市更新的審查時間一般是3到5年，目前聽說同樣的案件大概要5到7年，甚至可能更久，這個院長完全同意吧？","你剛剛說到案件數量，你看，都市更新條例施行27年才完成1,200件，危老條例只施行8年，已經完成4,500件。院長，你的想法呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，總統也多次指示要加強都更的推動效率，因為無論是居住品質、居住安全，乃至於整個市容的新風貌，我們都必須強力推都更。再來就是我們要因應未來的推升內需、擴大內需，也要靠都市更新來做大規模的內需建設，所以現在除了已經有的公辦跟自辦都更之外，我們正在研擬自主都更，讓房屋所有權人能夠付出更少的行政費用，或是不用跟建商去分這些土地或容積，自己能夠享有更多實際擁有的使用面積；用這個方式來看。這個部分我在施政報告裡面也曾經提到，我們在推升內需項下，現在強力推動的自主都更是一個新的方式。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以院長，您的意思是在剛剛我們講的兩個方式，也就是都更和危老之外，現在要提出第三種方法，就是自主都更？"],["卓院長榮泰：都更裡面有公辦都更和自辦都更……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以是放在都更下面的？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們還要推出一個自主都更。"],["蘇委員巧慧：自主都更？"],["卓院長榮泰：它就不用跟建商合作。它可能是和一些建經公司合作，建經公司背後有金融的支持，可以給你營造，可以給你金融支持，可以給你整個審定過程當中行政上的支持，讓業者不需要付出那麼大的代價，就可以轉換自己的居住環境；我們用這個方式來想。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長，你這個計畫我相信一定會有很多人覺得非常好，因為只要能夠讓自己的居住環境變好，我相信大家都願意投入，而且不用付擔那麼多成本。不過院長，就既有的兩種制度，一個是都更，一個是危老，我們從都更的部分來跟你就教的話，我們整理的狀況，像剛剛都更的兩個困境，第一個是審議時間太長、審議期程不明，所以成本無法估計的這個部分，就是來自於剛剛說的項目、內容、標準，因為不明確，所以在審議的過程中要來回好幾次，一個城市又常常只有一個審議委員會，所以審議量能就是這樣，當然案件一直來，舊的不去，新的又來，當然就越來越多，去化很難嘛！","所以我想具體的建議，其實在您提出新的自主都更這個方式之外，現有的都更是不是可以參採危老的部分，也就是讓它的審議標準有沒有機會更明確一點？這是第一個，都更審查標準內容明確化。第二個，增加都更的審議量能，然後把期程能夠確定下來，我認為在剛剛跟危老這樣的比較之下，其實都更最需要的是這一塊。院長，你的意見呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：內政部現在應該有很多相對的措施在補助地方，讓民眾更容易親近這個政策，同時我們也對於全案管理的機構，也要做一些資格上的放寬，是不是請部長能夠說明這個部分？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的指教。院長有多次指示，我們可能會朝著修正都市更新條例來簡化委員剛剛所提到的，跟目前所碰到的，在都更上面，不管是在行政流程上面，或者是包括權利變換，或是金融……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主要應該是明確化。"],["劉部長世芳：對，這樣子的話，也可以鼓勵更多人加入，同時地方政府也願意來輔導，有這麼多都更相關的機制，這個部分恐怕就朝著研議都市更新條例要修正、發展，可能會比較好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我非常同意，我們就是想朝這個方向。第二個，其實剛剛說的困境二的地方是，許多地區的產權複雜，整合曠日廢時。我們一樣實際去訪查，其實兩個部分，一個是對業者而言，這麼複雜的產權，沒有政策誘因，我為什麼要挑難的做？我就不做了。另外一個是對民眾而言，我要找誰做？我如果是要都更，大家現在常常看到的就是，你家的信箱裡面有一個小廣告紙，上面寫：你想要老屋翻新嗎？請電卓先生，然後一個電話；或是寫：請電劉小姐，也是一個電話。那麼我到底能不能夠相信他，這是一個什麼樣的狀況呢？所以我認為其實政府如果能夠帶頭投入這種私地的都更，政府現在已經在做公地的都更了，這沒有問題，所以私地的都更如果政府也能夠投入，包括像現在這幾年下來，我覺得住都中心其實很受到大家的肯定，如果住都中心，甚至是台灣金聯資產管理公司，這也是一個大家信任的單位，甚至是剛剛部長在在提到的各縣市政府的都更單位，這三者如果能夠帶頭投入私地的都更，我認為是一個可以值得信賴的方式。","但是最後我也想藉著這個總質詢，是立法院最正式的時間來跟院長說，我覺得還有一個方法，在修正都更管理條例之外，還可以有一個方法是，我們有沒有機會讓都更這個產業真正的法制化。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：院長，其實我們很清楚知道我們要買賣不動產，現在就是找房仲，那就是因為我們把它法制化，有不動產經紀業管理條例這樣子的狀況，一旦有了專法之後，它對產業的監控就嚴密，甚至你要有專業資格才能進去，你要考證照才能做這樣的行業，甚至是後面連帶影響，連公司的名稱都逐漸統一，社會就知道，我要做這件事情就找這個人。所以我們有沒有可能讓都更這個產業，也能夠有一個法制、專法來做管理？我覺得這樣，一個是政府帶頭做，一個是把這個產業法制化，我相信就比較能夠打造一個人民信賴的團隊。院長，你覺得呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：讓它管理機構能夠法制化，這是現在我們想的目標跟方向，我記得我們明年度的中央政府總預算當中，對於剛剛所說的自主都更的業者有相對性的一些獎勵措施，希望把這個產業給扶植起來，讓它能夠多對……"],["蘇委員巧慧：既然是要扶植這個產業，我覺得先有一個專法來考慮它的資格。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長跟委員說明一下。"],["劉部長世芳：專法是一個方向，放在都更條例裡面也是一個方向，第一個就是讓它專業化，再來政府要能夠監督得到它，這樣子，你把它變成產業化的時候，就像大家所說的，它有一個證照、有一個比較好的部分，才不會說是一個小信箱裡面，隨便一個人就處理都更的部分。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，就是這樣。"],["劉部長世芳：要處理都更的民眾才會有信賴的對象，所以不管是朝著專法或者是朝著放在都更條例裡面，兩者都是我們可以接受的方向。"],["卓院長榮泰：非常謝謝委員重視這個問題，我想在新北市，無論是委員所在的樹林、三重、板橋，還是中永和等等，都有很多老舊的社區需要強力都更，未來期待我們的委員能夠……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這其實是新北市最需要的一個題目。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員在臺北、新北市，我們在中央，可以強力的合作，把這個都更全面的展開，讓它效率能夠提高。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想這是新北最需要的一個題目，那我們在這裡就期待行政院也能夠提出，不管是修正法律案或者是專法，我們都期待一個都更新時代的到來，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員之質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請萬美玲委員質詢。陳瑩委員請準備。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":23,"meet_id":"院會-11-4-4","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-14"],"gazette_id":"1147901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1147901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期第4次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1147901_00001"}}}