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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 772.291, \"end\": 772.591, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"始\", \"start\": 772.591, \"end\": 772.912, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"督\", \"start\": 772.912, \"end\": 773.272, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 773.272, \"end\": 773.452, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 773.452, \"end\": 773.752, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 773.752, \"end\": 773.912, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 773.912, \"end\": 774.032, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"宗\", \"start\": 774.032, \"end\": 774.232, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 774.232, \"end\": 774.252, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,385 --> 00:00:12,089\n麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:18,953 --> 00:00:42,076\n好代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣\n\n3\n00:00:42,757 --> 00:00:59,977\n那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR和一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多\n\n4\n00:01:02,579 --> 00:01:29,858\n政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖溪也被埋了到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染\n\n5\n00:01:30,598 --> 00:01:50,321\n不是三合破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理好那我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子所以\n\n6\n00:01:52,017 --> 00:02:11,712\n監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的監案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢\n\n7\n00:02:15,535 --> 00:02:34,022\n那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且呢他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國有財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是呢我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣\n\n8\n00:02:35,595 --> 00:02:57,628\n我們不用講別的啦一個恩恩案就好了啦恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致\n\n9\n00:02:58,368 --> 00:03:21,020\n你回覆給黃國昌的說法是這個案子司法調查中所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿\n\n10\n00:03:22,168 --> 00:03:47,181\n那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開如此的透明如此的民主\n\n11\n00:03:48,226 --> 00:04:10,004\n但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法\n\n12\n00:04:12,117 --> 00:04:36,178\n當打手又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡\n\n13\n00:04:38,049 --> 00:04:53,065\n可是呢我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是呢我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作\n\n14\n00:04:54,344 --> 00:05:23,553\n這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好那我來我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好那我想請教一下那對於這一次啊高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎\n\n15\n00:05:25,253 --> 00:05:40,285\n跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好那可不可以像恩恩案一樣\n\n16\n00:05:41,867 --> 00:06:00,527\n隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公安案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度\n\n17\n00:06:02,216 --> 00:06:27,911\n然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後有大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員對啦但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人\n\n18\n00:06:29,946 --> 00:06:45,344\n委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外\n\n19\n00:06:45,845 --> 00:07:08,598\n好所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟\n\n20\n00:07:15,362 --> 00:07:32,476\n您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟\n\n21\n00:07:33,598 --> 00:07:45,439\n過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講\n\n22\n00:07:47,572 --> 00:08:06,883\n還有幾個問題啊有四個大坑啊現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛挖案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子啊昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分嘛\n\n23\n00:08:07,703 --> 00:08:24,345\n對不對那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想我有沒有講錯\n\n24\n00:08:26,743 --> 00:08:48,955\n委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題\n\n25\n00:08:49,835 --> 00:09:11,728\n所以我今天一直點你的是恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說提外話我跟你講我現在突然想我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞\n\n26\n00:09:13,269 --> 00:09:32,400\n背了才給我零用錢我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西我就背那個音而已現在我就突然想到我以前背那個杜甫的那個春旺那個啊春旺那一首詩啊第一句國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼國在山河破耶我們現在國家國還在但是山河破了\n\n27\n00:09:38,413 --> 00:09:59,223\n所以我現在能夠深深體會啊國破山河災痛苦的是皇帝痛苦的是政治人物但是國在山河破痛苦的是百姓啊我想請問一下政府你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦啊你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民啊所以我現在看到的台灣是國在山河破所以我一定要提出這個東西\n\n28\n00:10:03,231 --> 00:10:16,719\n所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西\n\n29\n00:10:21,095 --> 00:10:36,108\n你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样\n\n30\n00:10:37,608 --> 00:11:00,542\n尤其是過去啊你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院\n\n31\n00:11:06,794 --> 00:11:31,295\n對政務官我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對好這個沒有問題那我想我再請問一個問題如果有公務員不管政務官事務官不依法行政監察院應該要不要介入調查要可以調查好那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政貴院有沒有立案調查了\n\n32\n00:11:32,915 --> 00:11:49,914\n跟委員說明目前我們沒有這樣子的案件好所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯\n\n33\n00:11:51,889 --> 00:12:19,060\n目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情\n\n34\n00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:40,780\n第二再來請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲違憲違憲他根本就是違憲但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到的是這樣好\n\n35\n00:12:42,805 --> 00:12:54,252\n今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11385\t12089\t麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長\n18953\t42076\t好 代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣\n42757\t59977\t那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR和一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多\n62579\t89858\t政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖溪也被埋了到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染\n90598\t110321\t不是三合破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色 誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理好 那我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子所以\n112017\t131712\t監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的監案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢\n135535\t154022\t那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且呢他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國有財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是呢我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣\n155595\t177628\t我們不用講別的啦 一個恩恩案就好了啦恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致\n178368\t201020\t你回覆給黃國昌的說法是 這個案子司法調查中 所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查 我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿\n202168\t227181\t那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有 這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開 如此的透明 如此的民主\n228226\t250004\t但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法\n252117\t276178\t當打手 又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡\n278049\t293065\t可是呢 我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是呢 我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作\n294344\t323553\t這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好 那我來 我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好 那我想請教一下那對於這一次啊高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎\n325253\t340285\t跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好 那可不可以像恩恩案一樣\n341867\t360527\t隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公安案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度\n362216\t387911\t然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後有大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員對啦但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人\n389946\t405344\t委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外\n405845\t428598\t好 所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告 跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟\n435362\t452476\t您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟\n453598\t465439\t過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講\n467572\t486883\t還有幾個問題啊有四個大坑啊現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛挖案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子啊昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分嘛\n487703\t504345\t對不對 那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想 我有沒有講錯\n506743\t528955\t委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題\n529835\t551728\t所以我今天一直點你的是 恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說 提外話 我跟你講我現在突然想 我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞\n553269\t572400\t背了才給我零用錢 我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西 我就背那個音而已現在我就突然想到 我以前背那個杜甫的那個春旺那個啊春旺那一首詩啊 第一句 國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼 國在山河破耶我們現在國家國還在 但是山河破了\n578413\t599223\t所以我現在能夠深深體會啊 國破山河災 痛苦的是皇帝 痛苦的是政治人物但是國在山河破 痛苦的是百姓啊我想請問一下政府 你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦啊你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民啊所以我現在看到的台灣是國在山河破 所以我一定要提出這個東西\n603231\t616719\t所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西\n621095\t636108\t你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样\n637608\t660542\t尤其是過去啊你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院\n666794\t691295\t對政務官 我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對 好 這個沒有問題那我想 我再請問一個問題如果有公務員 不管政務官 事務官不依法行政 監察院應該要不要介入調查要 可以調查好 那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政 貴院有沒有立案調查了\n692915\t709914\t跟委員說明 目前我們沒有這樣子的案件好 所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政 但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯\n711889\t739060\t目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情\n739640\t760780\t第二 再來 請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度 五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲 違憲 違憲他根本就是違憲 但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到的是這樣 好\n762805\t774252\t今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲委員\n","txt":"麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長\n好 代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣\n那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR和一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多\n政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖溪也被埋了到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染\n不是三合破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色 誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理好 那我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子所以\n監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的監案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢\n那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且呢他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國有財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是呢我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣\n我們不用講別的啦 一個恩恩案就好了啦恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致\n你回覆給黃國昌的說法是 這個案子司法調查中 所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查 我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿\n那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有 這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開 如此的透明 如此的民主\n但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法\n當打手 又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡\n可是呢 我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是呢 我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作\n這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好 那我來 我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好 那我想請教一下那對於這一次啊高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎\n跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好 那可不可以像恩恩案一樣\n隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公安案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度\n然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後有大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員對啦但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人\n委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外\n好 所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告 跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟\n您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟\n過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講\n還有幾個問題啊有四個大坑啊現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛挖案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子啊昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分嘛\n對不對 那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想 我有沒有講錯\n委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題\n所以我今天一直點你的是 恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說 提外話 我跟你講我現在突然想 我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞\n背了才給我零用錢 我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西 我就背那個音而已現在我就突然想到 我以前背那個杜甫的那個春旺那個啊春旺那一首詩啊 第一句 國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼 國在山河破耶我們現在國家國還在 但是山河破了\n所以我現在能夠深深體會啊 國破山河災 痛苦的是皇帝 痛苦的是政治人物但是國在山河破 痛苦的是百姓啊我想請問一下政府 你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦啊你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民啊所以我現在看到的台灣是國在山河破 所以我一定要提出這個東西\n所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西\n你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样\n尤其是過去啊你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院\n對政務官 我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對 好 這個沒有問題那我想 我再請問一個問題如果有公務員 不管政務官 事務官不依法行政 監察院應該要不要介入調查要 可以調查好 那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政 貴院有沒有立案調查了\n跟委員說明 目前我們沒有這樣子的案件好 所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政 但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯\n目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情\n第二 再來 請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度 五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲 違憲 違憲他根本就是違憲 但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到的是這樣 好\n今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.385 --> 00:12.089\n麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長\n\n00:18.953 --> 00:42.076\n好代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣\n\n00:42.757 --> 00:59.977\n那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR和一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多\n\n01:02.579 --> 01:29.858\n政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖溪也被埋了到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染\n\n01:30.598 --> 01:50.321\n不是三合破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理好那我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子所以\n\n01:52.017 --> 02:11.712\n監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的監案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢\n\n02:15.535 --> 02:34.022\n那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且呢他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國有財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是呢我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣\n\n02:35.595 --> 02:57.628\n我們不用講別的啦一個恩恩案就好了啦恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致\n\n02:58.368 --> 03:21.020\n你回覆給黃國昌的說法是這個案子司法調查中所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿\n\n03:22.168 --> 03:47.181\n那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開如此的透明如此的民主\n\n03:48.226 --> 04:10.004\n但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法\n\n04:12.117 --> 04:36.178\n當打手又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡\n\n04:38.049 --> 04:53.065\n可是呢我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是呢我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作\n\n04:54.344 --> 05:23.553\n這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好那我來我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好那我想請教一下那對於這一次啊高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎\n\n05:25.253 --> 05:40.285\n跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好那可不可以像恩恩案一樣\n\n05:41.867 --> 06:00.527\n隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公安案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度\n\n06:02.216 --> 06:27.911\n然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後有大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員對啦但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人\n\n06:29.946 --> 06:45.344\n委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外\n\n06:45.845 --> 07:08.598\n好所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟\n\n07:15.362 --> 07:32.476\n您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟\n\n07:33.598 --> 07:45.439\n過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講\n\n07:47.572 --> 08:06.883\n還有幾個問題啊有四個大坑啊現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛挖案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子啊昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分嘛\n\n08:07.703 --> 08:24.345\n對不對那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想我有沒有講錯\n\n08:26.743 --> 08:48.955\n委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題\n\n08:49.835 --> 09:11.728\n所以我今天一直點你的是恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說提外話我跟你講我現在突然想我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞\n\n09:13.269 --> 09:32.400\n背了才給我零用錢我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西我就背那個音而已現在我就突然想到我以前背那個杜甫的那個春旺那個啊春旺那一首詩啊第一句國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼國在山河破耶我們現在國家國還在但是山河破了\n\n09:38.413 --> 09:59.223\n所以我現在能夠深深體會啊國破山河災痛苦的是皇帝痛苦的是政治人物但是國在山河破痛苦的是百姓啊我想請問一下政府你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦啊你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民啊所以我現在看到的台灣是國在山河破所以我一定要提出這個東西\n\n10:03.231 --> 10:16.719\n所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西\n\n10:21.095 --> 10:36.108\n你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样\n\n10:37.608 --> 11:00.542\n尤其是過去啊你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院\n\n11:06.794 --> 11:31.295\n對政務官我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對好這個沒有問題那我想我再請問一個問題如果有公務員不管政務官事務官不依法行政監察院應該要不要介入調查要可以調查好那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政貴院有沒有立案調查了\n\n11:32.915 --> 11:49.914\n跟委員說明目前我們沒有這樣子的案件好所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯\n\n11:51.889 --> 12:19.060\n目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情\n\n12:19.640 --> 12:40.780\n第二再來請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲違憲違憲他根本就是違憲但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到的是這樣好\n\n12:42.805 --> 12:54.252\n今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好謝謝好謝謝吳宗憲委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.385,"end":12.089,"text":"麻煩代理秘書長請代理秘書長"},{"start":18.953,"end":42.076,"text":"好 代理秘書長早安那我想有一些問題還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西其實延續會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題因為我剛剛聽了他的東西之後我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問就我現在先提一下我想監察院他在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚那我國五權跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣"},{"start":42.757,"end":59.977,"text":"那它有非常多的權限其實是本來是在許多國家它是交給立法權在執行我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚那我現在提的一個點就是高雄跟台南最近有很多光電的BR和一些濫墾的東西我想新聞都非常的多"},{"start":62.579,"end":89.858,"text":"政府還有一些特定的人他很喜歡講台灣是小小多山的國家但是我們現在看到的就是我們這個小小多山的一個地方但是山被爛挖溪也被埋了到處地下線成一個坑山頭也都光電板水庫也都光電板我現在看到的是這些問題但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土汙染"},{"start":90.598,"end":110.321,"text":"不是三合破壞失守他們看到的就是顏色 誰執政該什麼樣的人執政他要處理什麼樣執政他不用處理好 那我好像聽說好像現在又開始昨天還今天有人又去貴院去檢舉黃國昌的案子所以"},{"start":112.017,"end":131.712,"text":"監察院的存在到底剩下什麼這是我對於監察院的一個質疑那我先來跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子在陳水扁執政時代2003年那時候那個高雄觀音山濫墾的監案當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長結果呢"},{"start":135.535,"end":154.022,"text":"那個時候的監察院他卻積極的調查而且呢他後來他還有公開糾正對於縣政府對於國有財產局他都公開的糾正而且要求立刻復育立刻拆除違建立刻恢復地貌這是過往的監察院是長這個樣子但是呢我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣"},{"start":155.595,"end":177.628,"text":"我們不用講別的啦 一個恩恩案就好了啦恩恩案為了打那個為了一個總統選舉然後莫名其妙那個時候監察院跳進去再打恩恩案我那時候在新北市政府擔任法治局局長所以所有的東西包括監察院來調什麼資料全部都要經過我的手我一清二楚那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回覆給黃國昌的說法完全不一致"},{"start":178.368,"end":201.02,"text":"你回覆給黃國昌的說法是 這個案子司法調查中 所以你們就沒有查那二案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的司法調查歸司法調查 我監察院歸監察院所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿"},{"start":202.168,"end":227.181,"text":"那當時我也提出這個疑問啊我說過往不是司法調查中監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎那監察院給我們的回覆也是公開的回覆說沒有 這兩個是不一樣的東西甚至接下來的日子裡面監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題等一下就跟記者講如此的公開 如此的透明 如此的民主"},{"start":228.226,"end":250.004,"text":"但是現在什麼都不一樣現在只要講到跟綠營好像會傷害到他一點全部都不公開全部都我調查中全部都說尊重司法監察院不能如此雙標啦監察院是憲政機關耶所以如果你們這種玩法你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手現在政府很厲害有司法"},{"start":252.117,"end":276.178,"text":"當打手 又還有一個監察院當打手滿手的武器在對付在野黨過往我想提幾個例子過往發生的花蓮的長良林道的水保案件台東的山坡地的濫墾案件還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子其實這些案子都在那裡"},{"start":278.049,"end":293.065,"text":"可是呢 我們看到的是對於這些藍營執政的縣市監察院狂打猛殺但是呢 我剛剛提的那些高雄台南的這些光電弊案這些濫墾濫伐我卻沒有看到任何動作"},{"start":294.344,"end":323.553,"text":"這個就是嚴重的雙標而且我剛剛講那幾個案子有一個還在2023年花蓮的長良林道的那個案子還在2023而已這就是嚴重的雙標好 那我來 我跟你們講一下你們今天不能夠說藍營執政的縣市你們雷達就這麼靈敏迅速的處理但是綠營執政的縣市呢就完全沒有聽到好 那我想請教一下那對於這一次啊高雄還有台南這幾個濫墾濫伐還有這個光電案請問貴院有開始再調查了嗎"},{"start":325.253,"end":340.285,"text":"跟委員說明有關於高雄地區那個濫墾就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分呢我們已經有委員在發函了解先收集資料這樣子好 那可不可以像恩恩案一樣"},{"start":341.867,"end":360.527,"text":"隨時都對外公開因為檢查只有檢查體系有偵查不公開監察院沒有第二個即便是檢查體系在涉及社會重大公安案件也是偵查不公開的例外是可以公開那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度尤其對於這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件是否可以公開進度"},{"start":362.216,"end":387.911,"text":"然後另外一件就是有關於光電板在水庫上面做水面的那部分然後或者是颱風過後以後有大概有13片的光電板那我們已經有委員對啦但是你沒有回答到我問題啊我說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣隨時隨地的公佈連今天問了公務員什麼問題我被教訓監察院問了什麼問題馬上記者就知道你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人"},{"start":389.946,"end":405.344,"text":"委員說明一下因為有監察法第26條其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定那可是監察法26條是有限制調查人員就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外"},{"start":405.845,"end":428.598,"text":"好 所以在恩恩案的時候監察法26條就不見了在現在監察法26條又出來了我在這邊跟各位報告 跟你報告那個案子我就等於是當事人之一嘛所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事啊那當時為什麼就沒有監察法26條呢更何況監察法26條都沒有講到檢調或司法機關那監察法施行細則27條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題所以我在這邊跟"},{"start":435.362,"end":452.476,"text":"您說一下監察法26條跟監察法施行細則27條其實都沒有這問題其實你們早就應該要公佈而且很多案子都要去進行調查因為你現在跟我講的東西你做這樣的法律解釋OK我現在尊重你做這樣的法律解釋但是你現在的做法跟"},{"start":453.598,"end":465.439,"text":"過去你們在調查恩恩案的時候的做法完全不一致那我要相信誰我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢所以這個我想我要跟你說明一下另外我再跟你講"},{"start":467.572,"end":486.883,"text":"還有幾個問題啊有四個大坑啊現在大家都在講美濃天坑第二個坑碼頭山棄置案第三個大樹爛墾光電爛挖案件第四個大平頂保護區變柏油山還有好多案子啊昨天高雄市政府有出來講澄清這個部分嘛"},{"start":487.703,"end":504.345,"text":"對不對 那我覺得很好他出來澄清可是監察院是不是也應該要進入調查因為不是只有公務員違法監察院才要出來公務員待遇執行職務監察院也要介入所以不是只有違法會出現監察院而是待遇執行職務的時候監察院也要出來我想 我有沒有講錯"},{"start":506.743,"end":528.955,"text":"委員說的完全正確就是監察院是代護職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍然後我可以說明一下美濃跟大樹你不用跟我講調查的內容你需要的是公開調查內容我今天在這邊跟你不是就個案的細節去討論而是就你們就通案的制度上面有沒有問題"},{"start":529.835,"end":551.728,"text":"所以我今天一直點你的是 恩恩愛你們不停的公佈連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人你們的進度到哪裡那我也跟您說 提外話 我跟你講我現在突然想 我自己小時候我爸媽會逼我背唐詩誦詞"},{"start":553.269,"end":572.4,"text":"背了才給我零用錢 我為了打電動跟買零食我就會去背那些東西小時候我背我不懂很多東西 我就背那個音而已現在我就突然想到 我以前背那個杜甫的那個春旺那個啊春旺那一首詩啊 第一句 國破山河在我們現在台灣變什麼 國在山河破耶我們現在國家國還在 但是山河破了"},{"start":578.413,"end":599.223,"text":"所以我現在能夠深深體會啊 國破山河災 痛苦的是皇帝 痛苦的是政治人物但是國在山河破 痛苦的是百姓啊我想請問一下政府 你為什麼要給我們百姓這麼痛苦啊你為什麼要這麼傷害我們這些人民啊所以我現在看到的台灣是國在山河破 所以我一定要提出這個東西"},{"start":603.231,"end":616.719,"text":"所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個如果你們像你剛剛說的你已經在調查了是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說第二個您剛剛提到的監察法26條及適應細則第27條這兩個東西"},{"start":621.095,"end":636.108,"text":"你们回去看一下在恩恩爱爱的时候你们怎么处理的以及刚刚你怎么回应黄国昌的你们可不可以做出一个定论不要恩恩爱爱的时候一个做法今天一个做法法规的解释永远是看自己心情看自己觉得今天该解释成什么样"},{"start":637.608,"end":660.542,"text":"尤其是過去啊你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的券完整的同樣一套交給監察院當初你們是這樣要求的那像當初的這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣這個是我很有意見的一個地方那最後我想請問您一個問題公務員懲戒法第二條監察院"},{"start":666.794,"end":691.295,"text":"對政務官 我們可不可以移送懲戒可以對不對 好 這個沒有問題那我想 我再請問一個問題如果有公務員 不管政務官 事務官不依法行政 監察院應該要不要介入調查要 可以調查好 那我再請問一件事情如果今天行政院院長不依法行政 貴院有沒有立案調查了"},{"start":692.915,"end":709.914,"text":"跟委員說明 目前我們沒有這樣子的案件好 所以我們現在知道一件事情就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算不依法行政 但是貴院沒有立案調查我這個結論有沒有錯"},{"start":711.889,"end":739.06,"text":"目前沒有錯我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候貴院其實一直講一件事情包括我們在國會改革的時候貴院一直講一件事情說監察院的監察權是不容踐踏必須要存在要監督這個國家但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有謝謝你今天跟我講原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情"},{"start":739.64,"end":760.78,"text":"第二 再來 請您記得一件事情我國憲政制度 五院平起平坐監察院不是行政院的小弟請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案今天行政院院長是違憲 違憲 違憲他根本就是違憲 但是貴院卻完全不處理我今天看到的是這樣 好"},{"start":762.805,"end":774.252,"text":"今天你們不監督行政權明天人民就會監督你們所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在因為我們必須要開始監督監察院好 謝謝好 謝謝吳宗憲委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":156,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時29分）麻煩代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：代理秘書長早安。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員早安。"],["吳委員宗憲：我有一些問題，還有一些有關監察院制度方面的東西，其實會延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題，因為我剛剛聽了他的質詢之後，我覺得裡面還是有一些我要提出來詢問的地方。我現在先提一下，我想監察院在我國憲政制度上面的功能大家都非常的清楚，我國五權分立，跟三權分立國家其實不太一樣，它有非常多的權限其實本來在許多國家是交給立法權在執行，我想這個代理秘書長一定非常的清楚。","我現在提出一個點，高雄跟臺南最近有很多光電的弊案，還有一些濫墾濫伐的情形，我想新聞都非常的多，政府還有一些特定的人，他很喜歡講臺灣是小小多山的國家，但是我們現在看到的就是，我們這小小多山的一個地方，但是山被濫挖，溪也被埋了，地到處下陷成一個坑，山頭也都是光電板、水庫也都是光電板，我現在看到的是這些問題。但是這些委員他們看到的不是國土污染、不是山河破壞失守，他們看到的就是顏色、誰執政，什麼樣的人執政他要處理，什麼樣的人執政他不用處理。我聽說好像昨天還是今天有人又去貴院檢舉黃國昌的案子，所以監察院的存在到底剩下什麼？這是我對於監察院的一個質疑。","我先跟代理秘書長報告一下以前的監察院長什麼樣子，我現在先跟您報告以前的監察院長什麼樣子。在陳水扁執政時代，2003年高雄觀音山濫墾的案子，當時的縣長也是民進黨的縣長，那個時候的監察院卻積極的調查，而且後來還有公開糾正，對於縣政府、對於國有財產局它都公開糾正，而且要求立刻復育、立刻拆除違建、立刻恢復地貌。過往的監察院是長這個樣子，但是我們看到現在的監察院變成什麼樣？我們不用講別的，一個恩恩案就好了，恩恩案為了一個總統選舉，然後莫名其妙，那個時候監察院跳進去打恩恩案，我那時候在新北市政府擔任法制局局長，所以所有的東西，包括監察院來調什麼資料，全部都要經過我的手，我一清二楚，那個時候辦的方式跟您剛剛回復給黃國昌的說法完全不一致，你回復給黃國昌的說法是，這個案子在司法調查中，所以你們就沒有查，但恩恩案的時候是怎麼樣跟國人講的？司法調查歸司法調查，監察院歸監察院，所以當時甚至要檢方完整的提供檢方的調查資料，是後來檢方那邊說這個東西不能提供，我想你們可以去查一下過去貴院的聲明以及新聞稿。當時我也提出這個疑問，我說過往不是司法調查中，監察院就會先尊重司法調查嗎？但監察院給我們的回復，也是公開的回復說，沒有，這兩個是不一樣的東西。甚至在接下來的日子裡面，監察院連今天問了公務員什麼問題，等一下就跟記者講，如此的公開，如此的透明，如此的民主。但是現在什麼都不一樣了，現在只要講到跟綠營相關，好像只要會傷害到它一點，全部都不公開，全部都說調查中，全部都說尊重司法，監察院不能如此雙標啦！監察院是憲政機關，所以如果你們是這種玩法，你要我們怎麼相信監察院不是政治打手？現在政府很厲害，有司法當打手，還有一個監察院當打手，滿手的武器在對付在野黨。","我想提幾個過往發生的例子，花蓮長良林道的那個水保案件，臺東山坡地的濫墾案件，還有雲林張家濫墾山坡地的案子，其實這些案子都在那裡，可是我們看到的是，對於這些藍營執政的縣市，監察院狂打猛殺，但是對於我剛剛提到高雄、臺南的那些光電弊案、濫墾濫伐，我卻沒有看到任何動作，這個就是嚴重的雙標，而且我剛剛講的那幾個案子有一個還在2023年，花蓮長良林道的那個案子還在2023年而已，這就是嚴重的雙標。我跟你們講，你們今天不能夠對藍營執政的縣市你們的雷達就這麼靈敏，迅速的處理，但是綠營執政的縣市就完全沒有聽到。","我想請教一下，對於這一次高雄及臺南這幾個濫墾濫伐和光電案，請問貴院有開始在調查了嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關於高雄地區濫墾，就是所謂的美濃天坑等等的那個部分，我們已經有委員在發函了解，先蒐集資料。"],["吳委員宗憲：那可不可以像恩恩案一樣，隨時都對外公開？因為只有檢察體系有偵查不公開，監察院沒有；第二個，即便是檢察體系，在涉及社會重大公益案件，也是偵查不公開的，例外是可以公開，那貴院可不可以公開你們的進度？尤其是這幾個社會這麼重視的指標案件，是否可以公開進度？"],["王代理秘書長增華：另外一件是有關於在水庫水面上做光電板的部分，颱風過後大概有13片光電板，我們已經有委員去調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：對啦！但是你沒有回答到我問題，我是說你們可不可以像恩恩案一樣，隨時隨地的公布，連今天問了公務員什麼問題，我被叫去監察院問了什麼問題，記者馬上就知道，你們可不可以如此的透明公開給國人？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明一下，因為有監察法第二十六條，其實是類似偵查不公開這樣子的一個規定，監察法第二十六條有限制調查人員，就是調查委員跟相關的人員不能夠對外透露。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以在恩恩案的時候，監察法第二十六條就不見了，現在監察法第二十六條又出來了，我在這邊跟你報告，關於那個案子，我等於是當事人之一，所以我很清楚當時發生什麼事，那當時為什麼就沒有監察法第二十六條呢？更何況監察法第二十六條從頭到尾都沒有講到檢調或司法機關，監察法施行細則第二十七條也沒有說不停止調查等等的這些問題。所以我在這邊跟您說一下，監察法第二十六條跟監察法施行細則第二十七條都沒有這問題，其實你們早就應該要公布，而且很多案子都要去進行調查，因為你現在跟我講的東西，你做這樣的法律解釋，OK，我現在尊重你做這樣法律解釋，但是你現在的作法跟過去你們在調查恩恩案時的作法完全不一致，那我要相信誰？我要相信過去的還是相信現在的你呢？這個我要跟你說明一下。","我再跟你講，另外還有幾個問題，有四個大坑，現在大家都在講，第一個是美濃天坑，第二個坑是馬頭山棄置案，第三個是大樹濫墾、光電濫挖案案件，第四個是大坪頂保護區變柏油山，還有好多案子啊！昨天高雄市政府有出來澄清這個部分，我覺得很好，他出來澄清，可是監察院是不是也應該要介入調查？因為不是只有公務員違法，監察院才要出來，公務員怠於執行職務，監察院也要介入，所以不是只有違法會出現在監察院，而是怠於執行職務的時候，監察院也要出來，副秘，我有沒有講錯？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員說得完全正確，怠忽職守或者是違法失職都是監察職權的範圍，然後我說明一下美濃跟大樹……"],["吳委員宗憲：不用，你不用跟我講調查的內容，你需要的是公開調查內容，我今天在這邊不是跟你就個案的細節去討論，而是就你們通案的制度上面有沒有問題，所以我今天一直點你的是，恩恩案你們不停的公布，連問公務員的題目細節都告訴記者，但是現在這幾個調查案件可不可以告訴國人，你們的進度到哪裡？","我也跟您說一個題外話，我跟你講，我現在突然想到在我小時候，我爸媽會逼我背唐詩宋詞，背了才給我零用錢，我為了打電動跟買零食，就會去背那些東西，小時候我在背的時候，我不懂很多東西，我都背那個音而已，但我現在突然想到，我以前背杜甫春望那一首詩，第一句是「國破山河在」，但我們臺灣現在變成什麼？是國在山河破耶！我們現在是國家還在，但是山河破了，所以我現在能夠深深體會國破山河在痛苦的是皇帝，痛苦的是政治人物，但是國在山河破的話，痛苦的是百姓，我想請問一下政府為什麼要讓我們百姓這麼痛苦？你為什麼要這樣傷害我們這些人民？我現在看到的臺灣是國在山河破，所以我一定要提出這個東西。","所以請貴院對於我剛剛所提到的那幾個，像你剛剛說的，你已經在調查了，是不是可以把這些調查的細節一個一個跟我們說？第二個，您剛剛提到監察法第二十六條及施行細則第二十七條這兩個條文，你們回去看一下在恩恩案的時候，你們是怎麼處理的，以及剛剛你怎麼回應黃國昌的，你們可不可以做出一個定論？不要恩恩案的時候是一個作法，然後今天一個作法，法規的解釋永遠是看自己心情，看自己覺得今天該解釋成怎麼樣，尤其是過去，你們竟然可以要求新北市政府把給檢方的卷要完整的同樣一套交給監察院，當初你們是這樣要求的，而當初這個要求的強度到今天卻完全都不一樣，這個是我很有意見的一個地方。","最後我想請問您一個問題，根據公務員懲戒法第二條規定，監察院對政務官可不可以移送懲戒？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以對不對？這個沒有問題。我再請問一個問題，如果有公務員，不管是政務官、事務官，不依法行政，監察院要不要介入調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：要，可以調查。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我再請問一件事情，如果今天行政院長不依法行政，貴院有沒有立案調查了？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，目前我們沒有這樣子的案件……"],["吳委員宗憲：好，所以我們現在知道一件事情，就是行政院長卓榮泰毀憲亂政，不依據立法院三讀通過的法律來依法編列預算，不依法行政，但是貴院沒有立案調查，我這個結論有沒有錯？"],["王代理秘書長增華：目前沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們當時在討論監察院該不該廢掉的時候，貴院其實一直講一件事情，包括我們在國會改革的時候，貴院一直講一件事情，說監察院的監察權不容踐踏，必須要存在，要監督這個國家，但是我今天看到的就是有人明顯的違反我國憲政制度，但是貴院卻連啟動調查都沒有，謝謝你今天跟我講，原來貴院到現在還沒有啟動調查這件事情。","再來，請您記得一件事情，我國憲政制度是五院平起平坐，監察院不是行政院的小弟，請監察院不要看行政院院長的臉色在辦案！今天行政院長是違憲！違憲！違憲！他根本就是違憲！但是貴院卻完全不處理，我今天看到是這樣。好，今天你們不監督行政權，明天人民就會監督你們，所以我們現在才一直在討論監察院到底該不該存在，因為我們必須要開始監督監察院，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲委員。有夠「好康」，背個唐詩，你爸就給你零用錢，我小時候都要去牽牛，你知道嗎？我牽牛也沒有零用錢。","接下來請林倩綺委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}}