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\"end\": 998.221, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 998.221, \"end\": 998.361, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 998.361, \"end\": 998.742, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 998.742, \"end\": 998.902, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 998.902, \"end\": 999.062, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 999.062, \"end\": 999.262, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 999.262, \"end\": 999.443, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 999.443, \"end\": 999.883, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 999.883, \"end\": 1000.223, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"式\", \"start\": 1000.223, \"end\": 1000.744, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1000.744, \"end\": 1001.284, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 1001.284, \"end\": 1001.465, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"方\", \"start\": 1001.465, \"end\": 1001.625, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 1001.625, \"end\": 1001.885, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1001.885, \"end\": 1001.985, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1001.985, \"end\": 1002.326, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"盡\"}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 1002.326, \"end\": 1002.546, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1002.546, \"end\": 1002.706, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1002.706, \"end\": 1003.146, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 1003.146, \"end\": 1003.347, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 1003.347, \"end\": 1003.527, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"曾\", \"start\": 1003.527, \"end\": 1004.107, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 1004.107, \"end\": 1004.588, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"太\", \"start\": 1004.588, \"end\": 1004.908, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 1004.908, \"end\": 1005.088, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 1005.088, \"end\": 1005.249, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"承\", \"start\": 1005.249, \"end\": 1005.589, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"攬\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 1005.589, \"end\": 1005.829, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1005.829, \"end\": 1005.949, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 1005.949, \"end\": 1005.969, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 1005.969, \"end\": 1006.029, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 1006.029, \"end\": 1006.13, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1006.13, \"end\": 1006.17, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"王\", \"start\": 1006.17, \"end\": 1006.39, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"玉\", \"start\": 1006.39, \"end\": 1006.55, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"敏\", \"start\": 1006.55, \"end\": 1006.67, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1006.67, \"end\": 1006.69, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,326 --> 00:00:06,091\n謝謝主席我也請洪部長來有請部長\n\n2\n00:00:12,779 --> 00:00:39,657\n部長好對承接剛剛陳昭之委員所問的問題我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見現在看起來這個航空業環繞的行業就是不只是長榮航空其實有非常多他們相關的產業都出來講航空業環繞的這個行業包括地勤包括免稅店然後其他的航空等等他們都說會有這樣子報復性的做法假使你有\n\n3\n00:00:40,518 --> 00:01:08,095\n就是請假或者是你有得罪的主管等等會用排班方式來做包覆所以在這邊我也想請您您剛說你會加強勞檢是不是可以航空業環繞的這些產業您都可以去加強或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化因為你到很多論壇上去看你會發現各種地勤免稅店的人都出來開始講他們也發生過這樣子的情形\n\n4\n00:01:09,045 --> 00:01:28,403\n當然我想相關的問題其實這幾天大概看到可能不是只是單一的一家公司那當然長榮航空在過去的這個勞資的溝通的文化上面一直以來長榮公司都是比較強硬的是\n\n5\n00:01:29,249 --> 00:01:53,129\n那我们也认为这是有其实很大的应该改变的空间但是其他航空也希望您可以关怀他们当然那我想这可能里面也有包括是整个行业的问题那之后我们也会详细的发文问您针对这个航空业环绕的产业您有实际上做哪些事然后有收回哪些资讯好吗\n\n6\n00:01:53,829 --> 00:02:14,128\n好那剛剛陳杰剛的話題所以這個你們所預計去審查的職場霸凌防制專章就顯得非常的重要因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人都對這個專章有很高很高的期待啦那我去查了一些沒有專章之前的一些判決\n\n7\n00:02:15,549 --> 00:02:29,805\n比如說台北地方法院他曾經有個判決他就指出說他寫到職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義所以當時他的判決其實他也是靠他自己的方式來處理\n\n8\n00:02:31,286 --> 00:02:55,049\n那連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊這就是我們殘酷的現實困境包括剛剛陳肇智委員所反映的這些事那我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西第一個就是很清楚的定義第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應的程序還有一個最重要就是實際上有牙齒可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的\n\n9\n00:02:56,830 --> 00:03:05,153\n賠償規範大家都很期待但是你知道這次您送到立法院備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎加起來三條三條啊大家覺得三條那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整結果是用三條來打發\n\n10\n00:03:22,020 --> 00:03:44,569\n我看了一下三條有什麼範圍第一條你告訴我們什麼是霸凌然後一定規模的事業單位可以去訂定防治措施第二條你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施還要上網登錄第三條是說員工如果不服內部的處理可以跟地方政府申訴然後就沒了就沒了\n\n11\n00:03:45,592 --> 00:04:10,153\n跟委員報告其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分第一個部分也跟其實立法院的委員們一直很關心的職場的減災就是包括營造業或者很多這個公安的問題的減災有關係這部分是有一個這個部分那第二個是跟職場霸凌有關那當然這些職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式可是這個專章的方式並不代表這個調次\n\n12\n00:04:12,274 --> 00:04:31,866\n看起來是三條就代表他是沒有用並不是這樣其實每一個調次他要發揮的作用跟他其實某個部分也是對準我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較但我們從很多的社會事件看到職場他在很多不幸親生的事件這個職場霸凌他的\n\n13\n00:04:34,688 --> 00:04:50,803\n他對於受害者的這個嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾所以我們就來跟性攻法來比較一下性攻法他有明確的雇主的責任有申訴的機制有調查的程序還有真正可以去嚇阻\n\n14\n00:04:51,804 --> 00:05:19,722\n雇主他可不可以好好的管理這個職場包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款來讓你看看你這個法是有多陽春我們來看這個是性供法第27條他有明確的規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針因為如果就你現在提出來的專章\n\n15\n00:05:21,243 --> 00:05:35,373\n他假使要申請賠償他就要請律師他已經身心受害了然後再到民法裡面去大海撈針那性供法也講得很清楚他說對於故意造成的傷害故意造成比如說\n\n16\n00:05:36,374 --> 00:05:55,812\n性別歧視獎金不同差別待遇可以判決損害到1到3倍的懲罰性賠償金如果加害者是雇主本人甚至可以到3到5倍加害者是雇主本人這個也不罕見不管是在霸凌或者是在性騷擾防治上面\n\n17\n00:05:56,753 --> 00:06:19,867\n那真正用心去預防它就它才會痛它才會想要去好好的管理這個職場嘛那這一方面你覺得你有沒有考慮可以把這方面把它納入跟委員說明其實我們在這個法律這個職場辦在專章在修的時候其實的確因為外界一定都會很大的參照性工法\n\n18\n00:06:21,328 --> 00:06:35,086\n那我們其實也來參考國際上面相關跟職場霸凌的法律確實有一個狀況我還是必須要想要跟大院報告其實國際上面對職場霸凌的相關的法規規範的密度其實並不高\n\n19\n00:06:36,308 --> 00:07:02,476\n那可是我們的性供法的法規在2023年當時修的時候他的這個規範的密度是很高所以我們一直在希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡因為的確我們其實也跟蠻多國際上面的專家學者來做討論他們對於職場霸凌的這個樣態好幾個國家的樣態跟規範的密度其實我們都甚至還開了國際的研討會\n\n20\n00:07:04,016 --> 00:07:25,135\n他們的規範密度真的不高所以我們在這裡面是求取所以後來我們基本上會把一些如果性供罰裡面有但是在其他的法規裡面也有的部分我們就不一定把它放到職場霸凌裡面我知道你會這樣子說我也幫你找好了我知道你會這樣子回答其實我們現在就是因為有一個很重大的新聞事件所以我們要去正視這個職場霸凌的問題也讓我們有機會去修法\n\n21\n00:07:28,098 --> 00:07:47,024\n那你要修你就把它修好我又幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家就是這個加拿大的勞動標準法所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法他就採取了我們剛講的整合模式啊他有完整的程序規範還有直接的賠償請求權這個就是我幫你把它畫出來他的第123.15條\n\n22\n00:07:53,226 --> 00:08:18,380\n他認定霸凌成立之後就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器那我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任既然你現在又要修就把它修好\n\n23\n00:08:19,394 --> 00:08:33,934\n跟文說明第一個我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面我想這不是不負責任但是我認為我們沒有去排除在哪些規範上面只要這個法規有他能夠在職場霸凌的作用\n\n24\n00:08:35,455 --> 00:08:59,577\n我們其實當然是可以開放的來討論的啊當然啊因為你剛在講世界上沒有嘛所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有我在說在國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範性的密度其實坦白說我們現在的規範密度已經是蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在規範密度是蠻高的可是當然跟性供法的條文的規範密度比起來\n\n25\n00:09:00,538 --> 00:09:16,067\n性供法當然是一個更多的條文的這個法規當時的這個修法所以我的意思是說比方說確實這也會跟不同的國家比方有些國家他是非常非常著重在透過用法院的方式來去處理問題\n\n26\n00:09:17,788 --> 00:09:29,214\n有些國家非常著重用法院的方式有些國家他是很著重在企業的內部治理公司治理每個國家其實他有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題\n\n27\n00:09:31,737 --> 00:09:52,364\n那剛剛委員說明的就是說我覺得有些法規法規的條文如果我們到時候在審查的時候那來看如果是確實在我們的法規上面沒有處理到我覺得我們是開放的態度所以我這邊還是在列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點因為職場霸凌它所發生的案件數是不亞於職場性騷擾\n\n28\n00:09:54,705 --> 00:10:17,170\n對所以我們應該也是要把它規範好比如說在這邊我舉兩個例子就是申訴的程序申訴的程序我來舉性供法性供法他右邊他在講說如果你的老闆不處理或是你的老闆本身就是加害者好那你就是往地方主管機關去做申訴但是比較你的霸凌專章你就少了一樣\n\n29\n00:10:17,830 --> 00:10:40,731\n因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的所以這邊你要不要考慮其實你可以把它列在上面你這邊只有提到說假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者那你可以往地方主管機關申訴跟我的說明如果老闆不處理這是直接開罰的啊你可以寫上去啊不是不是寫上去的問題只要老闆不處理這就是直接開罰的啊\n\n30\n00:10:42,515 --> 00:11:04,623\n这不用什么申诉时效啊只要老板不处理就是直接开罚那你要怎么发现嘛你要怎么发现只要有人来申诉老板该处理而不处理不启动程序或者是启动的程序不完备这是直接开罚的这没有什么第二句话的对啊你如果可以把它补强上去或是你把它列上说明现在在我们的版本里面就是这样子的\n\n31\n00:11:05,143 --> 00:11:08,606\n好第二個我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂右邊就是說如果我沒有詮釋不對等在這個性騷擾的案件如果我們沒有詮釋不對等我們可能只是同一個階級的\n\n32\n00:11:24,602 --> 00:11:36,240\n那我這個時效是五年我有權勢不退等他可能是我的主管那時效是七年但是左邊我們來比你的這個霸凌專章你是一刀切就是三年\n\n33\n00:11:40,103 --> 00:12:05,990\n跟委員報告這個委員現在提的是性供法裡面第一項第二款他裡面有提到這個全市霸凌的部分那在我們目前子彈法設計的部分這個部分是在企業內部的一個有關於全市霸凌是企業內部的一個管理的一個機制那這個部分我們未來在附屬法規也會把這個部分剛剛委員提到的部分你會把它補充上去你可以稍微解釋一下這訂三年的理由嗎這個原因為何\n\n34\n00:12:07,230 --> 00:12:26,603\n那你之後會不會在詮釋不對等的狀態之下拉長他的時效跟委員報告目前這個架構還有大概實現是參考性供法現在我們治安法的規定是參考性供法的規定看起來沒有啊看起來差蠻多的\n\n35\n00:12:28,887 --> 00:12:46,422\n它是五年跟七年你現在訂的是三年我們的部分是針對我們最高負責人所以我們這邊是訂的是三年剛剛尾框的這個部分是不一樣的是僱主不服或不處理剛剛部長已經有提到的如果僱主未處理的話就直接是開罰了\n\n36\n00:12:47,583 --> 00:13:03,128\n如果可以的話我希望未來我們都可以在說明欄可以寫得更詳細或者是直接在條文寫得更詳細我剛才看委員在這部分是指部組不處理的部分可是這部分在現在的版本裡面我們是直接可以處理的\n\n37\n00:13:04,168 --> 00:13:27,376\n不一定一定要一個時效那如果是最高負責因為剛剛委員在問我們的版本裡面是最高負責的話最高部分的部分我們其實是參考性供法的那主席我問最後一個問題這個之前呢剛也有一些委員他在提案說明的時候講到說去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的人地方卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件那當時\n\n38\n00:13:29,017 --> 00:13:52,301\n記者詢問你你就說因為只有無姓的職員一名正式的人力所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額啦齁那我去查了一下115年你的員額是減少欸你是減少到130人本來113年被分數\n\n39\n00:13:55,382 --> 00:14:17,383\n的原額是132114年是131結果115年你編的原額是減少到130這是第一個問題我想問為什麼你爭取原額好像跳票了第二個是何沛山部長之前就已經跟我們打詢的時候講過說勞動部是非典型人力的大宗應該要改善\n\n40\n00:14:18,064 --> 00:14:21,267\n所以那個時候你接受訪問你想要做的兩件事情現在看起來是跳票的\n\n41\n00:14:35,217 --> 00:14:55,663\n跟文說明北分署的事件當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員其實資訊室的人員並本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由書本部來派駐所以其實也現在其實也是要因應這個我們幾個分署的資訊室的人其實我現在也是請\n\n42\n00:14:56,663 --> 00:15:24,374\n我們部裡面的資訊處那重點的要下去來協助也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足可是資訊人力其實它的原額編制本來就不是在分署而是在我們是由署本部來派駐所以不是在這個數字上那你從署本部那邊的原額你有增加人嗎這是我們的疑問大概增加多少我跟委員說明其實在今年因為\n\n43\n00:15:25,441 --> 00:15:52,342\n院裡面也給我們發言署蠻多重要的任務的期待其實我們今年我們其實也去爭取了14個人好那這個承攬人力呢承攬人力承攬不一定是這個第二個第二個您說您說你要下降那個跟跟委員說明我們的這個發言署的任務真的是很龐大\n\n44\n00:15:53,277 --> 00:16:10,948\n那這個人事的調整的工程其實我覺得他可能確實會需要一點過程所以我們一方面其實就像剛剛說我們一些重要的任務那我們是來跟行政院人事總署來爭取人力今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個14人你剛講的14個人力\n\n45\n00:16:12,009 --> 00:16:30,874\n那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做我覺得蠻多重要的工作但是就約用人員的部分可能不一定說我增加14個我就可以減少14個約用人員他可能會是一個人事結構的調整會是一個比較長時間的過程但是我們是努力的去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力這部分\n\n46\n00:16:31,494 --> 00:16:46,690\n其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取當然因為這個是您曾經講過的事所以我們還是希望看到你一方面增加正式的員額一方面可以盡量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王玉敏委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4326\t6091\t謝謝主席我也請洪部長來有請部長\n12779\t39657\t部長好對承接剛剛陳昭之委員所問的問題我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見現在看起來這個航空業環繞的行業就是不只是長榮航空其實有非常多他們相關的產業都出來講航空業環繞的這個行業包括地勤包括免稅店然後其他的航空等等他們都說會有這樣子報復性的做法假使你有\n40518\t68095\t就是請假或者是你有得罪的主管等等會用排班方式來做包覆所以在這邊我也想請您您剛說你會加強勞檢是不是可以航空業環繞的這些產業您都可以去加強或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化因為你到很多論壇上去看你會發現各種地勤免稅店的人都出來開始講他們也發生過這樣子的情形\n69045\t88403\t當然我想相關的問題其實這幾天大概看到可能不是只是單一的一家公司那當然長榮航空在過去的這個勞資的溝通的文化上面一直以來長榮公司都是比較強硬的是\n89249\t113129\t那我们也认为这是有其实很大的应该改变的空间但是其他航空也希望您可以关怀他们当然那我想这可能里面也有包括是整个行业的问题那之后我们也会详细的发文问您针对这个航空业环绕的产业您有实际上做哪些事然后有收回哪些资讯好吗\n113829\t134128\t好那剛剛陳杰剛的話題所以這個你們所預計去審查的職場霸凌防制專章就顯得非常的重要因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人都對這個專章有很高很高的期待啦那我去查了一些沒有專章之前的一些判決\n135549\t149805\t比如說台北地方法院他曾經有個判決他就指出說他寫到職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義所以當時他的判決其實他也是靠他自己的方式來處理\n151286\t175049\t那連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊這就是我們殘酷的現實困境包括剛剛陳肇智委員所反映的這些事那我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西第一個就是很清楚的定義第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應的程序還有一個最重要就是實際上有牙齒可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的\n176830\t185153\t賠償規範 大家都很期待但是你知道這次您送到立法院備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎加起來三條三條啊 大家覺得三條那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整結果是用三條來打發\n202020\t224569\t我看了一下三條有什麼範圍第一條你告訴我們什麼是霸凌然後一定規模的事業單位可以去訂定防治措施第二條你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施還要上網登錄第三條是說員工如果不服內部的處理可以跟地方政府申訴然後就沒了就沒了\n225592\t250153\t跟委員報告其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分第一個部分也跟其實立法院的委員們一直很關心的職場的減災就是包括營造業或者很多這個公安的問題的減災有關係這部分是有一個這個部分那第二個是跟職場霸凌有關那當然這些職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式可是這個專章的方式並不代表這個調次\n252274\t271866\t看起來是三條就代表他是沒有用並不是這樣其實每一個調次他要發揮的作用跟他其實某個部分也是對準我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較但我們從很多的社會事件看到職場他在很多不幸親生的事件這個職場霸凌他的\n274688\t290803\t他對於受害者的這個嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾所以我們就來跟性攻法來比較一下性攻法他有明確的雇主的責任有申訴的機制有調查的程序還有真正可以去嚇阻\n291804\t319722\t雇主他可不可以好好的管理這個職場包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款來讓你看看你這個法是有多陽春我們來看這個是性供法第27條他有明確的規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針因為如果就你現在提出來的專章\n321243\t335373\t他假使要申請賠償他就要請律師他已經身心受害了然後再到民法裡面去大海撈針那性供法也講得很清楚他說對於故意造成的傷害故意造成比如說\n336374\t355812\t性別歧視 獎金不同 差別待遇可以判決損害到1到3倍的懲罰性賠償金如果加害者是雇主本人 甚至可以到3到5倍加害者是雇主本人 這個也不罕見不管是在霸凌 或者是在性騷擾防治上面\n356753\t379867\t那真正用心去預防 它就 它才會痛它才會想要去好好的管理這個職場嘛那這一方面你覺得你有沒有考慮可以把這方面把它納入跟委員說明其實我們在這個法律這個職場辦在專章在修的時候其實的確因為外界一定都會很大的參照性工法\n381328\t395086\t那我們其實也來參考國際上面相關跟職場霸凌的法律確實有一個狀況我還是必須要想要跟大院報告其實國際上面對職場霸凌的相關的法規規範的密度其實並不高\n396308\t422476\t那可是我們的性供法的法規在2023年當時修的時候他的這個規範的密度是很高所以我們一直在希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡因為的確我們其實也跟蠻多國際上面的專家學者來做討論他們對於職場霸凌的這個樣態好幾個國家的樣態跟規範的密度其實我們都甚至還開了國際的研討會\n424016\t445135\t他們的規範密度真的不高所以我們在這裡面是求取所以後來我們基本上會把一些如果性供罰裡面有但是在其他的法規裡面也有的部分我們就不一定把它放到職場霸凌裡面我知道你會這樣子說我也幫你找好了我知道你會這樣子回答其實我們現在就是因為有一個很重大的新聞事件所以我們要去正視這個職場霸凌的問題也讓我們有機會去修法\n448098\t467024\t那你要修你就把它修好我又幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家就是這個加拿大的勞動標準法所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法他就採取了我們剛講的整合模式啊他有完整的程序規範還有直接的賠償請求權這個就是我幫你把它畫出來他的第123.15條\n473226\t498380\t他認定霸凌成立之後就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器那我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任既然你現在又要修就把它修好\n499394\t513934\t跟文說明第一個我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面我想這不是不負責任但是我認為我們沒有去排除在哪些規範上面只要這個法規有他能夠在職場霸凌的作用\n515455\t539577\t我們其實當然是可以開放的來討論的啊當然啊因為你剛在講世界上沒有嘛所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有我在說在國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範性的密度其實坦白說我們現在的規範密度已經是蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在規範密度是蠻高的可是當然跟性供法的條文的規範密度比起來\n540538\t556067\t性供法當然是一個更多的條文的這個法規當時的這個修法所以我的意思是說比方說確實這也會跟不同的國家比方有些國家他是非常非常著重在透過用法院的方式來去處理問題\n557788\t569214\t有些國家非常著重用法院的方式有些國家他是很著重在企業的內部治理 公司治理每個國家其實他有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題\n571737\t592364\t那剛剛委員說明的就是說我覺得有些法規法規的條文如果我們到時候在審查的時候那來看如果是確實在我們的法規上面沒有處理到我覺得我們是開放的態度所以我這邊還是在列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點因為職場霸凌它所發生的案件數是不亞於職場性騷擾\n594705\t617170\t對所以我們應該也是要把它規範好比如說在這邊我舉兩個例子就是申訴的程序申訴的程序我來舉性供法性供法他右邊他在講說如果你的老闆不處理或是你的老闆本身就是加害者好那你就是往地方主管機關去做申訴但是比較你的霸凌專章你就少了一樣\n617830\t640731\t因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的所以這邊你要不要考慮其實你可以把它列在上面你這邊只有提到說假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者那你可以往地方主管機關申訴跟我的說明如果老闆不處理這是直接開罰的啊你可以寫上去啊不是不是寫上去的問題只要老闆不處理這就是直接開罰的啊\n642515\t664623\t这不用什么申诉时效啊只要老板不处理就是直接开罚那你要怎么发现嘛你要怎么发现只要有人来申诉老板该处理而不处理不启动程序或者是启动的程序不完备这是直接开罚的这没有什么第二句话的对啊你如果可以把它补强上去或是你把它列上说明现在在我们的版本里面就是这样子的\n665143\t668606\t好 第二個我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂右邊就是說如果我沒有詮釋不對等在這個性騷擾的案件如果我們沒有詮釋不對等我們可能只是同一個階級的\n684602\t696240\t那我這個時效是五年我有權勢不退等 他可能是我的主管那時效是七年但是左邊我們來比你的這個霸凌專章你是一刀切就是三年\n700103\t725990\t跟委員報告 這個委員現在提的是性供法裡面第一項第二款他裡面有提到這個全市霸凌的部分那在我們目前子彈法設計的部分這個部分是在企業內部的一個有關於全市霸凌是企業內部的一個管理的一個機制那這個部分我們未來在附屬法規也會把這個部分剛剛委員提到的部分你會把它補充上去你可以稍微解釋一下這訂三年的理由嗎這個原因為何\n727230\t746603\t那你之後會不會在詮釋不對等的狀態之下拉長他的時效跟委員報告 目前這個架構還有大概實現是參考性供法現在我們治安法的規定是參考性供法的規定看起來沒有啊 看起來差蠻多的\n748887\t766422\t它是五年跟七年你現在訂的是三年我們的部分是針對我們最高負責人所以我們這邊是訂的是三年剛剛尾框的這個部分是不一樣的是僱主不服或不處理剛剛部長已經有提到的如果僱主未處理的話就直接是開罰了\n767583\t783128\t如果可以的話我希望未來我們都可以在說明欄可以寫得更詳細或者是直接在條文寫得更詳細我剛才看委員在這部分是指部組不處理的部分可是這部分在現在的版本裡面我們是直接可以處理的\n784168\t807376\t不一定一定要一個時效那如果是最高負責因為剛剛委員在問我們的版本裡面是最高負責的話最高部分的部分我們其實是參考性供法的那主席我問最後一個問題這個之前呢剛也有一些委員他在提案說明的時候講到說去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的人地方卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件那當時\n809017\t832301\t記者詢問你 你就說因為只有無姓的職員一名正式的人力所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力 你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額啦齁那我去查了一下115年你的員額是減少欸 你是減少到130人 本來113年被分數\n835382\t857383\t的原額是132114年是131結果115年你編的原額是減少到130這是第一個問題我想問為什麼你爭取原額好像跳票了第二個是何沛山部長之前就已經跟我們打詢的時候講過說勞動部是非典型人力的大宗應該要改善\n858064\t861267\t所以那個時候你接受訪問你想要做的兩件事情現在看起來是跳票的\n875217\t895663\t跟文說明北分署的事件當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員其實資訊室的人員並本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由書本部來派駐所以其實也現在其實也是要因應這個我們幾個分署的資訊室的人其實我現在也是請\n896663\t924374\t我們部裡面的資訊處那重點的要下去來協助也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足可是資訊人力其實它的原額編制本來就不是在分署而是在我們是由署本部來派駐所以不是在這個數字上那你從署本部那邊的原額你有增加人嗎這是我們的疑問大概增加多少我跟委員說明其實在今年因為\n925441\t952342\t院裡面也給我們發言署蠻多重要的任務的期待其實我們今年我們其實也去爭取了14個人好 那這個承攬人力呢承攬人力承攬不一定是這個第二個第二個 您說您說你要下降那個跟跟委員說明我們的這個發言署的任務真的是很龐大\n953277\t970948\t那這個人事的調整的工程其實我覺得他可能確實會需要一點過程所以我們一方面其實就像剛剛說我們一些重要的任務那我們是來跟行政院人事總署來爭取人力今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個14人你剛講的14個人力\n972009\t990874\t那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做我覺得蠻多重要的工作但是就約用人員的部分可能不一定說我增加14個我就可以減少14個約用人員他可能會是一個人事結構的調整會是一個比較長時間的過程但是我們是努力的去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力這部分\n991494\t1006690\t其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取當然 因為這個是您曾經講過的事所以我們還是希望看到你一方面增加正式的員額一方面可以盡量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請王玉敏委員\n","txt":"謝謝主席我也請洪部長來有請部長\n部長好對承接剛剛陳昭之委員所問的問題我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見現在看起來這個航空業環繞的行業就是不只是長榮航空其實有非常多他們相關的產業都出來講航空業環繞的這個行業包括地勤包括免稅店然後其他的航空等等他們都說會有這樣子報復性的做法假使你有\n就是請假或者是你有得罪的主管等等會用排班方式來做包覆所以在這邊我也想請您您剛說你會加強勞檢是不是可以航空業環繞的這些產業您都可以去加強或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化因為你到很多論壇上去看你會發現各種地勤免稅店的人都出來開始講他們也發生過這樣子的情形\n當然我想相關的問題其實這幾天大概看到可能不是只是單一的一家公司那當然長榮航空在過去的這個勞資的溝通的文化上面一直以來長榮公司都是比較強硬的是\n那我们也认为这是有其实很大的应该改变的空间但是其他航空也希望您可以关怀他们当然那我想这可能里面也有包括是整个行业的问题那之后我们也会详细的发文问您针对这个航空业环绕的产业您有实际上做哪些事然后有收回哪些资讯好吗\n好那剛剛陳杰剛的話題所以這個你們所預計去審查的職場霸凌防制專章就顯得非常的重要因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人都對這個專章有很高很高的期待啦那我去查了一些沒有專章之前的一些判決\n比如說台北地方法院他曾經有個判決他就指出說他寫到職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義所以當時他的判決其實他也是靠他自己的方式來處理\n那連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊這就是我們殘酷的現實困境包括剛剛陳肇智委員所反映的這些事那我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西第一個就是很清楚的定義第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應的程序還有一個最重要就是實際上有牙齒可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的\n賠償規範 大家都很期待但是你知道這次您送到立法院備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎加起來三條三條啊 大家覺得三條那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整結果是用三條來打發\n我看了一下三條有什麼範圍第一條你告訴我們什麼是霸凌然後一定規模的事業單位可以去訂定防治措施第二條你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施還要上網登錄第三條是說員工如果不服內部的處理可以跟地方政府申訴然後就沒了就沒了\n跟委員報告其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分第一個部分也跟其實立法院的委員們一直很關心的職場的減災就是包括營造業或者很多這個公安的問題的減災有關係這部分是有一個這個部分那第二個是跟職場霸凌有關那當然這些職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式可是這個專章的方式並不代表這個調次\n看起來是三條就代表他是沒有用並不是這樣其實每一個調次他要發揮的作用跟他其實某個部分也是對準我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較但我們從很多的社會事件看到職場他在很多不幸親生的事件這個職場霸凌他的\n他對於受害者的這個嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾所以我們就來跟性攻法來比較一下性攻法他有明確的雇主的責任有申訴的機制有調查的程序還有真正可以去嚇阻\n雇主他可不可以好好的管理這個職場包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款來讓你看看你這個法是有多陽春我們來看這個是性供法第27條他有明確的規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針因為如果就你現在提出來的專章\n他假使要申請賠償他就要請律師他已經身心受害了然後再到民法裡面去大海撈針那性供法也講得很清楚他說對於故意造成的傷害故意造成比如說\n性別歧視 獎金不同 差別待遇可以判決損害到1到3倍的懲罰性賠償金如果加害者是雇主本人 甚至可以到3到5倍加害者是雇主本人 這個也不罕見不管是在霸凌 或者是在性騷擾防治上面\n那真正用心去預防 它就 它才會痛它才會想要去好好的管理這個職場嘛那這一方面你覺得你有沒有考慮可以把這方面把它納入跟委員說明其實我們在這個法律這個職場辦在專章在修的時候其實的確因為外界一定都會很大的參照性工法\n那我們其實也來參考國際上面相關跟職場霸凌的法律確實有一個狀況我還是必須要想要跟大院報告其實國際上面對職場霸凌的相關的法規規範的密度其實並不高\n那可是我們的性供法的法規在2023年當時修的時候他的這個規範的密度是很高所以我們一直在希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡因為的確我們其實也跟蠻多國際上面的專家學者來做討論他們對於職場霸凌的這個樣態好幾個國家的樣態跟規範的密度其實我們都甚至還開了國際的研討會\n他們的規範密度真的不高所以我們在這裡面是求取所以後來我們基本上會把一些如果性供罰裡面有但是在其他的法規裡面也有的部分我們就不一定把它放到職場霸凌裡面我知道你會這樣子說我也幫你找好了我知道你會這樣子回答其實我們現在就是因為有一個很重大的新聞事件所以我們要去正視這個職場霸凌的問題也讓我們有機會去修法\n那你要修你就把它修好我又幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家就是這個加拿大的勞動標準法所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法他就採取了我們剛講的整合模式啊他有完整的程序規範還有直接的賠償請求權這個就是我幫你把它畫出來他的第123.15條\n他認定霸凌成立之後就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器那我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任既然你現在又要修就把它修好\n跟文說明第一個我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面我想這不是不負責任但是我認為我們沒有去排除在哪些規範上面只要這個法規有他能夠在職場霸凌的作用\n我們其實當然是可以開放的來討論的啊當然啊因為你剛在講世界上沒有嘛所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有我在說在國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範性的密度其實坦白說我們現在的規範密度已經是蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在規範密度是蠻高的可是當然跟性供法的條文的規範密度比起來\n性供法當然是一個更多的條文的這個法規當時的這個修法所以我的意思是說比方說確實這也會跟不同的國家比方有些國家他是非常非常著重在透過用法院的方式來去處理問題\n有些國家非常著重用法院的方式有些國家他是很著重在企業的內部治理 公司治理每個國家其實他有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題\n那剛剛委員說明的就是說我覺得有些法規法規的條文如果我們到時候在審查的時候那來看如果是確實在我們的法規上面沒有處理到我覺得我們是開放的態度所以我這邊還是在列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點因為職場霸凌它所發生的案件數是不亞於職場性騷擾\n對所以我們應該也是要把它規範好比如說在這邊我舉兩個例子就是申訴的程序申訴的程序我來舉性供法性供法他右邊他在講說如果你的老闆不處理或是你的老闆本身就是加害者好那你就是往地方主管機關去做申訴但是比較你的霸凌專章你就少了一樣\n因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的所以這邊你要不要考慮其實你可以把它列在上面你這邊只有提到說假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者那你可以往地方主管機關申訴跟我的說明如果老闆不處理這是直接開罰的啊你可以寫上去啊不是不是寫上去的問題只要老闆不處理這就是直接開罰的啊\n这不用什么申诉时效啊只要老板不处理就是直接开罚那你要怎么发现嘛你要怎么发现只要有人来申诉老板该处理而不处理不启动程序或者是启动的程序不完备这是直接开罚的这没有什么第二句话的对啊你如果可以把它补强上去或是你把它列上说明现在在我们的版本里面就是这样子的\n好 第二個我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂右邊就是說如果我沒有詮釋不對等在這個性騷擾的案件如果我們沒有詮釋不對等我們可能只是同一個階級的\n那我這個時效是五年我有權勢不退等 他可能是我的主管那時效是七年但是左邊我們來比你的這個霸凌專章你是一刀切就是三年\n跟委員報告 這個委員現在提的是性供法裡面第一項第二款他裡面有提到這個全市霸凌的部分那在我們目前子彈法設計的部分這個部分是在企業內部的一個有關於全市霸凌是企業內部的一個管理的一個機制那這個部分我們未來在附屬法規也會把這個部分剛剛委員提到的部分你會把它補充上去你可以稍微解釋一下這訂三年的理由嗎這個原因為何\n那你之後會不會在詮釋不對等的狀態之下拉長他的時效跟委員報告 目前這個架構還有大概實現是參考性供法現在我們治安法的規定是參考性供法的規定看起來沒有啊 看起來差蠻多的\n它是五年跟七年你現在訂的是三年我們的部分是針對我們最高負責人所以我們這邊是訂的是三年剛剛尾框的這個部分是不一樣的是僱主不服或不處理剛剛部長已經有提到的如果僱主未處理的話就直接是開罰了\n如果可以的話我希望未來我們都可以在說明欄可以寫得更詳細或者是直接在條文寫得更詳細我剛才看委員在這部分是指部組不處理的部分可是這部分在現在的版本裡面我們是直接可以處理的\n不一定一定要一個時效那如果是最高負責因為剛剛委員在問我們的版本裡面是最高負責的話最高部分的部分我們其實是參考性供法的那主席我問最後一個問題這個之前呢剛也有一些委員他在提案說明的時候講到說去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的人地方卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件那當時\n記者詢問你 你就說因為只有無姓的職員一名正式的人力所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力 你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額啦齁那我去查了一下115年你的員額是減少欸 你是減少到130人 本來113年被分數\n的原額是132114年是131結果115年你編的原額是減少到130這是第一個問題我想問為什麼你爭取原額好像跳票了第二個是何沛山部長之前就已經跟我們打詢的時候講過說勞動部是非典型人力的大宗應該要改善\n所以那個時候你接受訪問你想要做的兩件事情現在看起來是跳票的\n跟文說明北分署的事件當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員其實資訊室的人員並本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由書本部來派駐所以其實也現在其實也是要因應這個我們幾個分署的資訊室的人其實我現在也是請\n我們部裡面的資訊處那重點的要下去來協助也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足可是資訊人力其實它的原額編制本來就不是在分署而是在我們是由署本部來派駐所以不是在這個數字上那你從署本部那邊的原額你有增加人嗎這是我們的疑問大概增加多少我跟委員說明其實在今年因為\n院裡面也給我們發言署蠻多重要的任務的期待其實我們今年我們其實也去爭取了14個人好 那這個承攬人力呢承攬人力承攬不一定是這個第二個第二個 您說您說你要下降那個跟跟委員說明我們的這個發言署的任務真的是很龐大\n那這個人事的調整的工程其實我覺得他可能確實會需要一點過程所以我們一方面其實就像剛剛說我們一些重要的任務那我們是來跟行政院人事總署來爭取人力今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個14人你剛講的14個人力\n那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做我覺得蠻多重要的工作但是就約用人員的部分可能不一定說我增加14個我就可以減少14個約用人員他可能會是一個人事結構的調整會是一個比較長時間的過程但是我們是努力的去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力這部分\n其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取當然 因為這個是您曾經講過的事所以我們還是希望看到你一方面增加正式的員額一方面可以盡量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請王玉敏委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.326 --> 00:06.091\n謝謝主席我也請洪部長來有請部長\n\n00:12.779 --> 00:39.657\n部長好對承接剛剛陳昭之委員所問的問題我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見現在看起來這個航空業環繞的行業就是不只是長榮航空其實有非常多他們相關的產業都出來講航空業環繞的這個行業包括地勤包括免稅店然後其他的航空等等他們都說會有這樣子報復性的做法假使你有\n\n00:40.518 --> 01:08.095\n就是請假或者是你有得罪的主管等等會用排班方式來做包覆所以在這邊我也想請您您剛說你會加強勞檢是不是可以航空業環繞的這些產業您都可以去加強或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化因為你到很多論壇上去看你會發現各種地勤免稅店的人都出來開始講他們也發生過這樣子的情形\n\n01:09.045 --> 01:28.403\n當然我想相關的問題其實這幾天大概看到可能不是只是單一的一家公司那當然長榮航空在過去的這個勞資的溝通的文化上面一直以來長榮公司都是比較強硬的是\n\n01:29.249 --> 01:53.129\n那我们也认为这是有其实很大的应该改变的空间但是其他航空也希望您可以关怀他们当然那我想这可能里面也有包括是整个行业的问题那之后我们也会详细的发文问您针对这个航空业环绕的产业您有实际上做哪些事然后有收回哪些资讯好吗\n\n01:53.829 --> 02:14.128\n好那剛剛陳杰剛的話題所以這個你們所預計去審查的職場霸凌防制專章就顯得非常的重要因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人都對這個專章有很高很高的期待啦那我去查了一些沒有專章之前的一些判決\n\n02:15.549 --> 02:29.805\n比如說台北地方法院他曾經有個判決他就指出說他寫到職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義所以當時他的判決其實他也是靠他自己的方式來處理\n\n02:31.286 --> 02:55.049\n那連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊這就是我們殘酷的現實困境包括剛剛陳肇智委員所反映的這些事那我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西第一個就是很清楚的定義第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應的程序還有一個最重要就是實際上有牙齒可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的\n\n02:56.830 --> 03:05.153\n賠償規範大家都很期待但是你知道這次您送到立法院備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎加起來三條三條啊大家覺得三條那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整結果是用三條來打發\n\n03:22.020 --> 03:44.569\n我看了一下三條有什麼範圍第一條你告訴我們什麼是霸凌然後一定規模的事業單位可以去訂定防治措施第二條你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施還要上網登錄第三條是說員工如果不服內部的處理可以跟地方政府申訴然後就沒了就沒了\n\n03:45.592 --> 04:10.153\n跟委員報告其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分第一個部分也跟其實立法院的委員們一直很關心的職場的減災就是包括營造業或者很多這個公安的問題的減災有關係這部分是有一個這個部分那第二個是跟職場霸凌有關那當然這些職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式可是這個專章的方式並不代表這個調次\n\n04:12.274 --> 04:31.866\n看起來是三條就代表他是沒有用並不是這樣其實每一個調次他要發揮的作用跟他其實某個部分也是對準我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較但我們從很多的社會事件看到職場他在很多不幸親生的事件這個職場霸凌他的\n\n04:34.688 --> 04:50.803\n他對於受害者的這個嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾所以我們就來跟性攻法來比較一下性攻法他有明確的雇主的責任有申訴的機制有調查的程序還有真正可以去嚇阻\n\n04:51.804 --> 05:19.722\n雇主他可不可以好好的管理這個職場包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款來讓你看看你這個法是有多陽春我們來看這個是性供法第27條他有明確的規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針因為如果就你現在提出來的專章\n\n05:21.243 --> 05:35.373\n他假使要申請賠償他就要請律師他已經身心受害了然後再到民法裡面去大海撈針那性供法也講得很清楚他說對於故意造成的傷害故意造成比如說\n\n05:36.374 --> 05:55.812\n性別歧視獎金不同差別待遇可以判決損害到1到3倍的懲罰性賠償金如果加害者是雇主本人甚至可以到3到5倍加害者是雇主本人這個也不罕見不管是在霸凌或者是在性騷擾防治上面\n\n05:56.753 --> 06:19.867\n那真正用心去預防它就它才會痛它才會想要去好好的管理這個職場嘛那這一方面你覺得你有沒有考慮可以把這方面把它納入跟委員說明其實我們在這個法律這個職場辦在專章在修的時候其實的確因為外界一定都會很大的參照性工法\n\n06:21.328 --> 06:35.086\n那我們其實也來參考國際上面相關跟職場霸凌的法律確實有一個狀況我還是必須要想要跟大院報告其實國際上面對職場霸凌的相關的法規規範的密度其實並不高\n\n06:36.308 --> 07:02.476\n那可是我們的性供法的法規在2023年當時修的時候他的這個規範的密度是很高所以我們一直在希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡因為的確我們其實也跟蠻多國際上面的專家學者來做討論他們對於職場霸凌的這個樣態好幾個國家的樣態跟規範的密度其實我們都甚至還開了國際的研討會\n\n07:04.016 --> 07:25.135\n他們的規範密度真的不高所以我們在這裡面是求取所以後來我們基本上會把一些如果性供罰裡面有但是在其他的法規裡面也有的部分我們就不一定把它放到職場霸凌裡面我知道你會這樣子說我也幫你找好了我知道你會這樣子回答其實我們現在就是因為有一個很重大的新聞事件所以我們要去正視這個職場霸凌的問題也讓我們有機會去修法\n\n07:28.098 --> 07:47.024\n那你要修你就把它修好我又幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家就是這個加拿大的勞動標準法所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法他就採取了我們剛講的整合模式啊他有完整的程序規範還有直接的賠償請求權這個就是我幫你把它畫出來他的第123.15條\n\n07:53.226 --> 08:18.380\n他認定霸凌成立之後就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器那我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任既然你現在又要修就把它修好\n\n08:19.394 --> 08:33.934\n跟文說明第一個我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面我想這不是不負責任但是我認為我們沒有去排除在哪些規範上面只要這個法規有他能夠在職場霸凌的作用\n\n08:35.455 --> 08:59.577\n我們其實當然是可以開放的來討論的啊當然啊因為你剛在講世界上沒有嘛所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有我在說在國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範性的密度其實坦白說我們現在的規範密度已經是蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在規範密度是蠻高的可是當然跟性供法的條文的規範密度比起來\n\n09:00.538 --> 09:16.067\n性供法當然是一個更多的條文的這個法規當時的這個修法所以我的意思是說比方說確實這也會跟不同的國家比方有些國家他是非常非常著重在透過用法院的方式來去處理問題\n\n09:17.788 --> 09:29.214\n有些國家非常著重用法院的方式有些國家他是很著重在企業的內部治理公司治理每個國家其實他有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題\n\n09:31.737 --> 09:52.364\n那剛剛委員說明的就是說我覺得有些法規法規的條文如果我們到時候在審查的時候那來看如果是確實在我們的法規上面沒有處理到我覺得我們是開放的態度所以我這邊還是在列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點因為職場霸凌它所發生的案件數是不亞於職場性騷擾\n\n09:54.705 --> 10:17.170\n對所以我們應該也是要把它規範好比如說在這邊我舉兩個例子就是申訴的程序申訴的程序我來舉性供法性供法他右邊他在講說如果你的老闆不處理或是你的老闆本身就是加害者好那你就是往地方主管機關去做申訴但是比較你的霸凌專章你就少了一樣\n\n10:17.830 --> 10:40.731\n因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的所以這邊你要不要考慮其實你可以把它列在上面你這邊只有提到說假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者那你可以往地方主管機關申訴跟我的說明如果老闆不處理這是直接開罰的啊你可以寫上去啊不是不是寫上去的問題只要老闆不處理這就是直接開罰的啊\n\n10:42.515 --> 11:04.623\n这不用什么申诉时效啊只要老板不处理就是直接开罚那你要怎么发现嘛你要怎么发现只要有人来申诉老板该处理而不处理不启动程序或者是启动的程序不完备这是直接开罚的这没有什么第二句话的对啊你如果可以把它补强上去或是你把它列上说明现在在我们的版本里面就是这样子的\n\n11:05.143 --> 11:08.606\n好第二個我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂右邊就是說如果我沒有詮釋不對等在這個性騷擾的案件如果我們沒有詮釋不對等我們可能只是同一個階級的\n\n11:24.602 --> 11:36.240\n那我這個時效是五年我有權勢不退等他可能是我的主管那時效是七年但是左邊我們來比你的這個霸凌專章你是一刀切就是三年\n\n11:40.103 --> 12:05.990\n跟委員報告這個委員現在提的是性供法裡面第一項第二款他裡面有提到這個全市霸凌的部分那在我們目前子彈法設計的部分這個部分是在企業內部的一個有關於全市霸凌是企業內部的一個管理的一個機制那這個部分我們未來在附屬法規也會把這個部分剛剛委員提到的部分你會把它補充上去你可以稍微解釋一下這訂三年的理由嗎這個原因為何\n\n12:07.230 --> 12:26.603\n那你之後會不會在詮釋不對等的狀態之下拉長他的時效跟委員報告目前這個架構還有大概實現是參考性供法現在我們治安法的規定是參考性供法的規定看起來沒有啊看起來差蠻多的\n\n12:28.887 --> 12:46.422\n它是五年跟七年你現在訂的是三年我們的部分是針對我們最高負責人所以我們這邊是訂的是三年剛剛尾框的這個部分是不一樣的是僱主不服或不處理剛剛部長已經有提到的如果僱主未處理的話就直接是開罰了\n\n12:47.583 --> 13:03.128\n如果可以的話我希望未來我們都可以在說明欄可以寫得更詳細或者是直接在條文寫得更詳細我剛才看委員在這部分是指部組不處理的部分可是這部分在現在的版本裡面我們是直接可以處理的\n\n13:04.168 --> 13:27.376\n不一定一定要一個時效那如果是最高負責因為剛剛委員在問我們的版本裡面是最高負責的話最高部分的部分我們其實是參考性供法的那主席我問最後一個問題這個之前呢剛也有一些委員他在提案說明的時候講到說去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的人地方卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件那當時\n\n13:29.017 --> 13:52.301\n記者詢問你你就說因為只有無姓的職員一名正式的人力所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額啦齁那我去查了一下115年你的員額是減少欸你是減少到130人本來113年被分數\n\n13:55.382 --> 14:17.383\n的原額是132114年是131結果115年你編的原額是減少到130這是第一個問題我想問為什麼你爭取原額好像跳票了第二個是何沛山部長之前就已經跟我們打詢的時候講過說勞動部是非典型人力的大宗應該要改善\n\n14:18.064 --> 14:21.267\n所以那個時候你接受訪問你想要做的兩件事情現在看起來是跳票的\n\n14:35.217 --> 14:55.663\n跟文說明北分署的事件當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員其實資訊室的人員並本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由書本部來派駐所以其實也現在其實也是要因應這個我們幾個分署的資訊室的人其實我現在也是請\n\n14:56.663 --> 15:24.374\n我們部裡面的資訊處那重點的要下去來協助也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足可是資訊人力其實它的原額編制本來就不是在分署而是在我們是由署本部來派駐所以不是在這個數字上那你從署本部那邊的原額你有增加人嗎這是我們的疑問大概增加多少我跟委員說明其實在今年因為\n\n15:25.441 --> 15:52.342\n院裡面也給我們發言署蠻多重要的任務的期待其實我們今年我們其實也去爭取了14個人好那這個承攬人力呢承攬人力承攬不一定是這個第二個第二個您說您說你要下降那個跟跟委員說明我們的這個發言署的任務真的是很龐大\n\n15:53.277 --> 16:10.948\n那這個人事的調整的工程其實我覺得他可能確實會需要一點過程所以我們一方面其實就像剛剛說我們一些重要的任務那我們是來跟行政院人事總署來爭取人力今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個14人你剛講的14個人力\n\n16:12.009 --> 16:30.874\n那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做我覺得蠻多重要的工作但是就約用人員的部分可能不一定說我增加14個我就可以減少14個約用人員他可能會是一個人事結構的調整會是一個比較長時間的過程但是我們是努力的去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力這部分\n\n16:31.494 --> 16:46.690\n其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取當然因為這個是您曾經講過的事所以我們還是希望看到你一方面增加正式的員額一方面可以盡量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝接下來請王玉敏委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.326,"end":6.091,"text":"謝謝主席我也請洪部長來有請部長"},{"start":12.779,"end":39.657,"text":"部長好對承接剛剛陳昭之委員所問的問題我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見現在看起來這個航空業環繞的行業就是不只是長榮航空其實有非常多他們相關的產業都出來講航空業環繞的這個行業包括地勤包括免稅店然後其他的航空等等他們都說會有這樣子報復性的做法假使你有"},{"start":40.518,"end":68.095,"text":"就是請假或者是你有得罪的主管等等會用排班方式來做包覆所以在這邊我也想請您您剛說你會加強勞檢是不是可以航空業環繞的這些產業您都可以去加強或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化因為你到很多論壇上去看你會發現各種地勤免稅店的人都出來開始講他們也發生過這樣子的情形"},{"start":69.045,"end":88.403,"text":"當然我想相關的問題其實這幾天大概看到可能不是只是單一的一家公司那當然長榮航空在過去的這個勞資的溝通的文化上面一直以來長榮公司都是比較強硬的是"},{"start":89.249,"end":113.129,"text":"那我们也认为这是有其实很大的应该改变的空间但是其他航空也希望您可以关怀他们当然那我想这可能里面也有包括是整个行业的问题那之后我们也会详细的发文问您针对这个航空业环绕的产业您有实际上做哪些事然后有收回哪些资讯好吗"},{"start":113.829,"end":134.128,"text":"好那剛剛陳杰剛的話題所以這個你們所預計去審查的職場霸凌防制專章就顯得非常的重要因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人都對這個專章有很高很高的期待啦那我去查了一些沒有專章之前的一些判決"},{"start":135.549,"end":149.805,"text":"比如說台北地方法院他曾經有個判決他就指出說他寫到職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義所以當時他的判決其實他也是靠他自己的方式來處理"},{"start":151.286,"end":175.049,"text":"那連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊這就是我們殘酷的現實困境包括剛剛陳肇智委員所反映的這些事那我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西第一個就是很清楚的定義第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應的程序還有一個最重要就是實際上有牙齒可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的"},{"start":176.83,"end":185.153,"text":"賠償規範 大家都很期待但是你知道這次您送到立法院備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎加起來三條三條啊 大家覺得三條那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整結果是用三條來打發"},{"start":202.02,"end":224.569,"text":"我看了一下三條有什麼範圍第一條你告訴我們什麼是霸凌然後一定規模的事業單位可以去訂定防治措施第二條你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施還要上網登錄第三條是說員工如果不服內部的處理可以跟地方政府申訴然後就沒了就沒了"},{"start":225.592,"end":250.153,"text":"跟委員報告其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分第一個部分也跟其實立法院的委員們一直很關心的職場的減災就是包括營造業或者很多這個公安的問題的減災有關係這部分是有一個這個部分那第二個是跟職場霸凌有關那當然這些職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式可是這個專章的方式並不代表這個調次"},{"start":252.274,"end":271.866,"text":"看起來是三條就代表他是沒有用並不是這樣其實每一個調次他要發揮的作用跟他其實某個部分也是對準我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較但我們從很多的社會事件看到職場他在很多不幸親生的事件這個職場霸凌他的"},{"start":274.688,"end":290.803,"text":"他對於受害者的這個嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾所以我們就來跟性攻法來比較一下性攻法他有明確的雇主的責任有申訴的機制有調查的程序還有真正可以去嚇阻"},{"start":291.804,"end":319.722,"text":"雇主他可不可以好好的管理這個職場包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款來讓你看看你這個法是有多陽春我們來看這個是性供法第27條他有明確的規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針因為如果就你現在提出來的專章"},{"start":321.243,"end":335.373,"text":"他假使要申請賠償他就要請律師他已經身心受害了然後再到民法裡面去大海撈針那性供法也講得很清楚他說對於故意造成的傷害故意造成比如說"},{"start":336.374,"end":355.812,"text":"性別歧視 獎金不同 差別待遇可以判決損害到1到3倍的懲罰性賠償金如果加害者是雇主本人 甚至可以到3到5倍加害者是雇主本人 這個也不罕見不管是在霸凌 或者是在性騷擾防治上面"},{"start":356.753,"end":379.867,"text":"那真正用心去預防 它就 它才會痛它才會想要去好好的管理這個職場嘛那這一方面你覺得你有沒有考慮可以把這方面把它納入跟委員說明其實我們在這個法律這個職場辦在專章在修的時候其實的確因為外界一定都會很大的參照性工法"},{"start":381.328,"end":395.086,"text":"那我們其實也來參考國際上面相關跟職場霸凌的法律確實有一個狀況我還是必須要想要跟大院報告其實國際上面對職場霸凌的相關的法規規範的密度其實並不高"},{"start":396.308,"end":422.476,"text":"那可是我們的性供法的法規在2023年當時修的時候他的這個規範的密度是很高所以我們一直在希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡因為的確我們其實也跟蠻多國際上面的專家學者來做討論他們對於職場霸凌的這個樣態好幾個國家的樣態跟規範的密度其實我們都甚至還開了國際的研討會"},{"start":424.016,"end":445.135,"text":"他們的規範密度真的不高所以我們在這裡面是求取所以後來我們基本上會把一些如果性供罰裡面有但是在其他的法規裡面也有的部分我們就不一定把它放到職場霸凌裡面我知道你會這樣子說我也幫你找好了我知道你會這樣子回答其實我們現在就是因為有一個很重大的新聞事件所以我們要去正視這個職場霸凌的問題也讓我們有機會去修法"},{"start":448.098,"end":467.024,"text":"那你要修你就把它修好我又幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家就是這個加拿大的勞動標準法所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法他就採取了我們剛講的整合模式啊他有完整的程序規範還有直接的賠償請求權這個就是我幫你把它畫出來他的第123.15條"},{"start":473.226,"end":498.38,"text":"他認定霸凌成立之後就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器那我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任既然你現在又要修就把它修好"},{"start":499.394,"end":513.934,"text":"跟文說明第一個我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面我想這不是不負責任但是我認為我們沒有去排除在哪些規範上面只要這個法規有他能夠在職場霸凌的作用"},{"start":515.455,"end":539.577,"text":"我們其實當然是可以開放的來討論的啊當然啊因為你剛在講世界上沒有嘛所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有我在說在國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範性的密度其實坦白說我們現在的規範密度已經是蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在規範密度是蠻高的可是當然跟性供法的條文的規範密度比起來"},{"start":540.538,"end":556.067,"text":"性供法當然是一個更多的條文的這個法規當時的這個修法所以我的意思是說比方說確實這也會跟不同的國家比方有些國家他是非常非常著重在透過用法院的方式來去處理問題"},{"start":557.788,"end":569.214,"text":"有些國家非常著重用法院的方式有些國家他是很著重在企業的內部治理 公司治理每個國家其實他有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題"},{"start":571.737,"end":592.364,"text":"那剛剛委員說明的就是說我覺得有些法規法規的條文如果我們到時候在審查的時候那來看如果是確實在我們的法規上面沒有處理到我覺得我們是開放的態度所以我這邊還是在列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點因為職場霸凌它所發生的案件數是不亞於職場性騷擾"},{"start":594.705,"end":617.17,"text":"對所以我們應該也是要把它規範好比如說在這邊我舉兩個例子就是申訴的程序申訴的程序我來舉性供法性供法他右邊他在講說如果你的老闆不處理或是你的老闆本身就是加害者好那你就是往地方主管機關去做申訴但是比較你的霸凌專章你就少了一樣"},{"start":617.83,"end":640.731,"text":"因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的所以這邊你要不要考慮其實你可以把它列在上面你這邊只有提到說假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者那你可以往地方主管機關申訴跟我的說明如果老闆不處理這是直接開罰的啊你可以寫上去啊不是不是寫上去的問題只要老闆不處理這就是直接開罰的啊"},{"start":642.515,"end":664.623,"text":"这不用什么申诉时效啊只要老板不处理就是直接开罚那你要怎么发现嘛你要怎么发现只要有人来申诉老板该处理而不处理不启动程序或者是启动的程序不完备这是直接开罚的这没有什么第二句话的对啊你如果可以把它补强上去或是你把它列上说明现在在我们的版本里面就是这样子的"},{"start":665.143,"end":668.606,"text":"好 第二個我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂右邊就是說如果我沒有詮釋不對等在這個性騷擾的案件如果我們沒有詮釋不對等我們可能只是同一個階級的"},{"start":684.602,"end":696.24,"text":"那我這個時效是五年我有權勢不退等 他可能是我的主管那時效是七年但是左邊我們來比你的這個霸凌專章你是一刀切就是三年"},{"start":700.103,"end":725.99,"text":"跟委員報告 這個委員現在提的是性供法裡面第一項第二款他裡面有提到這個全市霸凌的部分那在我們目前子彈法設計的部分這個部分是在企業內部的一個有關於全市霸凌是企業內部的一個管理的一個機制那這個部分我們未來在附屬法規也會把這個部分剛剛委員提到的部分你會把它補充上去你可以稍微解釋一下這訂三年的理由嗎這個原因為何"},{"start":727.23,"end":746.603,"text":"那你之後會不會在詮釋不對等的狀態之下拉長他的時效跟委員報告 目前這個架構還有大概實現是參考性供法現在我們治安法的規定是參考性供法的規定看起來沒有啊 看起來差蠻多的"},{"start":748.887,"end":766.422,"text":"它是五年跟七年你現在訂的是三年我們的部分是針對我們最高負責人所以我們這邊是訂的是三年剛剛尾框的這個部分是不一樣的是僱主不服或不處理剛剛部長已經有提到的如果僱主未處理的話就直接是開罰了"},{"start":767.583,"end":783.128,"text":"如果可以的話我希望未來我們都可以在說明欄可以寫得更詳細或者是直接在條文寫得更詳細我剛才看委員在這部分是指部組不處理的部分可是這部分在現在的版本裡面我們是直接可以處理的"},{"start":784.168,"end":807.376,"text":"不一定一定要一個時效那如果是最高負責因為剛剛委員在問我們的版本裡面是最高負責的話最高部分的部分我們其實是參考性供法的那主席我問最後一個問題這個之前呢剛也有一些委員他在提案說明的時候講到說去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的人地方卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件那當時"},{"start":809.017,"end":832.301,"text":"記者詢問你 你就說因為只有無姓的職員一名正式的人力所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力 你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額啦齁那我去查了一下115年你的員額是減少欸 你是減少到130人 本來113年被分數"},{"start":835.382,"end":857.383,"text":"的原額是132114年是131結果115年你編的原額是減少到130這是第一個問題我想問為什麼你爭取原額好像跳票了第二個是何沛山部長之前就已經跟我們打詢的時候講過說勞動部是非典型人力的大宗應該要改善"},{"start":858.064,"end":861.267,"text":"所以那個時候你接受訪問你想要做的兩件事情現在看起來是跳票的"},{"start":875.217,"end":895.663,"text":"跟文說明北分署的事件當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員其實資訊室的人員並本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由書本部來派駐所以其實也現在其實也是要因應這個我們幾個分署的資訊室的人其實我現在也是請"},{"start":896.663,"end":924.374,"text":"我們部裡面的資訊處那重點的要下去來協助也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足可是資訊人力其實它的原額編制本來就不是在分署而是在我們是由署本部來派駐所以不是在這個數字上那你從署本部那邊的原額你有增加人嗎這是我們的疑問大概增加多少我跟委員說明其實在今年因為"},{"start":925.441,"end":952.342,"text":"院裡面也給我們發言署蠻多重要的任務的期待其實我們今年我們其實也去爭取了14個人好 那這個承攬人力呢承攬人力承攬不一定是這個第二個第二個 您說您說你要下降那個跟跟委員說明我們的這個發言署的任務真的是很龐大"},{"start":953.277,"end":970.948,"text":"那這個人事的調整的工程其實我覺得他可能確實會需要一點過程所以我們一方面其實就像剛剛說我們一些重要的任務那我們是來跟行政院人事總署來爭取人力今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個14人你剛講的14個人力"},{"start":972.009,"end":990.874,"text":"那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做我覺得蠻多重要的工作但是就約用人員的部分可能不一定說我增加14個我就可以減少14個約用人員他可能會是一個人事結構的調整會是一個比較長時間的過程但是我們是努力的去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力這部分"},{"start":991.494,"end":1006.69,"text":"其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取當然 因為這個是您曾經講過的事所以我們還是希望看到你一方面增加正式的員額一方面可以盡量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員好 謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請王玉敏委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時38分）謝謝主席，我也請洪部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。承接剛剛陳昭姿委員所問的問題，我們也蒐集了非常多方的意見，現在看起來，航空業環繞的行業，就是不只是長榮航空，其實也有非常多相關的產業都出來講。航空業環繞的行業包括地勤、免稅店和其他的航空等等，他們都說會有這樣子報復性的作法，假使你有請假或者是你有得罪了主管等等，就會用排班的方式來做報復。所以在這邊我也想請您回答，您剛剛說會加強勞檢，航空業環繞的這些產業，您是不是都可以去加強，或是去了解他們是不是有這樣子的文化？因為你到很多論壇上去看，你會發現各種地勤、免稅店的人都開始出來講他們也發生過這樣子的情形。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我想相關的問題其實這幾天大家也都看到了，可能不是只是單一的一家公司。當然，長榮航空過去在勞資的溝通文化上面，一直以來都是比較強硬的。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["洪部長申翰：我們也認為這其實是有很大應該要去改變的空間。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，但是其他航空也希望您可以關懷他們。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，我想這裡面可能也有包括整個行業的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，之後我們也會詳細的發文問您，針對航空業環繞的產業，你實際上有做哪些事，然後有收回哪些資訊，好嗎？","好，承接剛剛的話題，你們預計去審查的這個職場霸凌防治專章就顯得非常地重要，因為幾乎每一位有在職場上待過的人，都對這個專章有很高很高的期待。我去查了一些沒有專章之前的判決，比如說臺北地方法院曾經有個判決指出，職場霸凌目前尚無明確的法律要件跟定義，所以當時它的判決其實也是靠它自己的方式來處理。連法院都必須要自己摸索去拼湊，這就是我們殘酷的現實困境，包括剛剛陳昭姿委員所反映的這件事。我們期待這個專章可以帶來三樣東西：第一個就是很清楚的定義；第二個是遇到霸凌時有效的因應程序；還有一個最重要的，就是實際上有牙齒、可以發揮威力的是保護受害者的賠償規範。大家都很期待，但是您知道這次您送到立法院，備受我們全國勞工關注的霸凌專章總共是幾條嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：加起來三條。"],["陳委員菁徽：三條啊！那你洋洋灑灑的發新聞稿說，這次修法是職安法有史以來最大幅度的調整，結果是用三條來打發。我看了一下三條有什麼內容，第一條，你告訴我們什麼是霸凌，然後一定規模的事業單位可以訂定防制措施；第二條，你說老闆知道了以後要採取立即而且有效的措施，還要上網登錄；第三條是說，員工如果不服內部的處理，可以跟地方政府申訴，然後就沒了！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員報告，其實這一次我們的修法有兩個部分，第一個部分也跟立法院委員們一直很關心的職場減災有關，包括營造業或很多工安問題的減災；第二個部分跟職場霸凌有關，當然職場霸凌我們是用一個專章的方式處理，這個專章的方式，條次看起來是三條，但並不代表它沒有用，並不是這樣，每一個條文要發揮的作用，其實某個部分也是對準剛剛委員……"],["陳委員菁徽：我等一下給你一些具體的建議還有比較。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們從很多的社會事件看到職場上有很多不幸輕生的事件，職場霸凌對於受害者嚴重的身心傷害不亞於職場性騷擾，所以我們就來跟性工法比較一下。性工法有明確的雇主責任，有申訴的機制，有調查的程序，還有真正可以嚇阻雇主、教他好好管理這個職場的條文，包括損害賠償還有懲罰性賠償的條款，比較看看你這個法是有多陽春。這是性工法第二十七條，它明確規範雇主對於性騷擾事件的連帶賠償還有懲罰性的賠償，讓我們可以不用再去民法大海撈針，因為如果就你現在提出來的專章，當事人要去申請賠償，他就要請律師，可是他已經身心受害了，還要再到民法裡面去大海撈針；性工法也講得很清楚，對於故意造成的傷害比如性別歧視、獎金不同、差別待遇，可以判決損害一到三倍的懲罰性賠償金，如果加害者是雇主本人，甚至可以到三到五倍，加害者是雇主本人也不罕見，不管是在霸凌或者是在性騷擾上。所以要真正用心去預防，他才會痛，他才會想要去好好的管理這個職場。這一方面，你覺得你有沒有考慮把這方面的規定納入？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實我們這個職場霸凌專章在修的時候，外界一定都會參照性工法，其實我們也參考了國際上跟職場霸凌相關的法律，確實有個狀況，我還是必須要跟大院報告。國際上對職場霸凌規範的密度其實並不高，可是我們的性工法在2023年修的時候，它的規範密度很高，所以我們一直希望能夠去拿捏這中間的平衡。我們不只跟蠻多國際上的專家學者討論各國職場霸凌的樣態跟規範密度，我們甚至還開了國際的研討會，其實國際上的規範密度真的不高，所以後來我們基本上對於性工法裡面有但在其他法規裡面也有的部分，我們就不一定會納入本法。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道你會這樣子回答，我也幫你找好了，其實是因為我們現在就有一個很重大的新聞事件，所以我們要去正視職場霸凌的問題，也讓我們有機會去修法，如果要修，你就要把它修好，我有幫你找到世界上走在很前面的國家，就是加拿大的勞動標準法，所以我也想請你去參考這部加拿大的勞動標準法，它就採取了我們剛剛講的整合模式，有完整的程序規範，還有直接的賠償請求權，我已經幫你畫出來，它的第123.15條，認定霸凌成立之後，就可以直接命令雇主支付受害員工的精神賠償，甚至還有能夠嚇阻不良雇主的懲罰性賠償，這個才是真正有威嚇力的武器。我是希望不要再用回歸民法這樣子不負責任的話術來規避責任，既然你現在要修，就把它修好。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一、我覺得有些法規在其他法規裡面，我想這不是不負責任，我認為我們沒有去排除哪些規範，只要這個法規在職場霸凌上有它的作用，我們當然可以開放的來討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然啊，因為你剛剛在講世界上沒有嘛，所以我在告訴你說世界上還是有。"],["洪部長申翰：我不是說世界上沒有，我是在說國際上面對於職場霸凌的規範密度，坦白說有蠻多國際專家都認為我們現在的規範密度已經蠻高了，可是當然跟性工法條文的規範密度比起來，性工法當然是一個更多的法規。所以我的意思是，確實這也會跟不同的國家有關，比方有些國家非常非常著重透過法院去處理問題，有些國家非常著重用法院的方式，有些國家則是很著重在企業內部的公司治理，每個國家都有不太一樣的性質跟框架來處理這個問題。剛剛委員說明的，我覺得有些法條，到時候在審查的時候，如果確實我們的法規沒有處理到，我覺得我們是持開放的態度。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我這邊還是再列出一些我覺得您可以參考的點，因為職場霸凌所發生的案件數不亞於職場性騷擾，所以我們應該也要把它規範好。在這邊我舉兩個例子，就是申訴的程序，性工法規定，如果你的老闆不處理，或者你的老闆本身就是加害者，那就是向地方主管機關申訴，但是相較之下，你的霸凌專章就少了一樣，因為如果你的老闆不處理是沒有列在上面的，所以你要不要考慮把它納入？你這邊只有提到，假使你的老闆本身就是霸凌的加害者，那你可以向地方主管機關申訴。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，如果老闆不處理，這是直接開罰的。"],["陳委員菁徽：你可以寫上去啊！"],["洪部長申翰：不是，不是寫上去的問題，只要老闆不處理，就是直接開罰啊！不用什麼申訴時效，只要老闆不處理就是直接開罰。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你要怎麼發現？"],["洪部長申翰：只要有人來申訴，老闆該處理而不處理、不啟動程序，或者是啟動的程序不完備，就是直接開罰，這沒有第二句話。"],["陳委員菁徽：對啊，你如果可以把它補強上去，或是你把它列上說明……"],["洪部長申翰：現在在我們的版本裡面就是這樣子的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，第二個……"],["洪部長申翰：根據第三十九條，老闆不處理就是開罰了，沒有第二句話！"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來看一下右邊申訴的時效，這個我也希望你可以稍微解釋一下為什麼你會這樣子訂。右邊就是說，在這個性騷擾案件中，如果沒有權勢不對等，可能是同一個階級的，那這個時效是5年，但如果有權勢不對等，他可能是我的主管，那時效是7年，但是左邊我們來對比你的霸凌專章，你是一刀切，就是3年。"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，委員現在提的是性工法裡面的第一項第二款，其中有提到權勢霸凌的部分，目前在職安法的設計中，關於權勢霸凌是企業內部有一個管理機制，未來我們在附屬法規中也會把這個部分，剛剛委員提到的部分……"],["陳委員菁徽：你會把它補充上去？你可以稍微解釋一下訂3年的理由嗎？原因為何？你之後會不會在權勢不對等的狀態之下，拉長它的時效？"],["林署長毓堂：跟委員報告，目前這個架構還有大家看到的時限是參考性工法，現在我們職安法的規定是參考性工法的規定。"],["陳委員菁徽：看起來沒有啊！看起來差蠻多的。它是5年跟7年，你現在訂的是3年。"],["林署長毓堂：委員，我們的部分是針對最高負責人，所以我們這邊訂的是3年，剛剛委員匡的這個部分是不一樣的，是雇主不服或不處理，剛剛部長也有提到，如果雇主未處理的話，就直接去開罰的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，如果可以的話，我希望未來可以在說明欄寫得更詳細，或者是直接在條文中寫得更詳細。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這部分是指雇主不處理的部分，可是這部分在現在的版本裡面，我們是直接可以處理的，不一定說要一個時效。如果是最高負責人，因為剛剛委員在問我們版本裡面的最高負責人，最高負責人的部分，我們其實是參考性工法。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席，我問最後一個問題。剛剛也有一些委員在提案說明的時候講到說，去年監管我們勞動部這麼多勞動環境的地方，卻是發生了霸凌致死這樣子的案件，那當時記者詢問你，你就說因為只有吳姓的職員一名正式的人力，所以他沒有辦法把業務分擔給承攬的人員，導致於長期承受過高的工作壓力，你說你會跟行政院的人事總處爭取員額。那我去查了一下，115年你的員額是減少到130人，本來113年北分署的員額是132、114年是131，結果115年你編的員額是減少到130，這是第一個問題，我想問為什麼你爭取員額好像跳票了？第二個是何佩珊部長之前答詢的時候就已經跟我們講過，勞動部是非典型人力的大宗，應該要改善。113年臨時人力加承攬人力共計2,563人，到了今年變成2,601人，整整增加了38人，所以那個時候你接受訪問，你想要做的兩件事情，現在看起來是跳票的。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，北分署的事件，當時發生的其實是在資訊室的人員，其實資訊室的人員本來就沒有算在北分署的員額裡面，資訊室的人員其實一直以來都是由署本部來派駐，所以現在其實也是要因應我們幾個分署的資訊室……其實我現在也是請我們部裡面的資訊處，重點的要下去來協助，也是考慮到我們分署在資訊人力上的不足，可是資訊人力其實他的員額編制本來就不是在分署，而是由署本部來派駐，所以不是在這個數字可以顯現的。"],["陳委員菁徽：那署本部那邊的員額，你有增加人嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["陳委員菁徽：這是我們的疑問，大概增加多少？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，其實在今年，因為院裡面也給我們發展署滿多重要任務的期待，我們今年也去爭取了14個人。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那承攬人力呢？"],["洪部長申翰：承攬人力不一定是……"],["陳委員菁徽：第二個，您說您要下降。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們發展署的任務真的是很龐大，那這個人事調整的工程，其實我覺得它可能確實會需要一點過程，所以我們一方面……其實就像剛剛說的，我們一些重要的任務，我們是跟行政院人事總處來爭取人力，今年好不容易爭取到了十幾個……"],["陳委員菁徽：14人，你剛剛講的。"],["洪部長申翰：14個人力，那這14個人力接下來會幫我們做……我覺得滿多重要的工作，但是就約用人員的部分，可能不一定說我增加14個，我就可以減少14個約用人員，它可能會是一個人事結構的調整，會是一個比較長時間的過程，可是我們是努力去跟行政院來爭取正式的人力，這部分其實這幾個月我們真的花非常多心力來跟行政院爭取。"],["陳委員菁徽：當然、當然，因為這個是您曾經講過的事，所以我們還是希望看到你，一方面增加正式的員額，一方面可以儘量的去減少你曾經覺得太多的承攬人員，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}