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\"end\": 218.11, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"監\"}, {\"word\": \"察\", \"start\": 218.11, \"end\": 218.29, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 218.29, \"end\": 219.01, \"score\": 0.801}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 219.01, \"end\": 219.27, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 219.27, \"end\": 219.39, \"score\": 0.82}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 219.39, \"end\": 219.531, \"score\": 0.74}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 219.531, \"end\": 219.991, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 219.991, \"end\": 220.531, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 220.531, \"end\": 220.651, \"score\": 0.689}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 220.651, \"end\": 220.891, \"score\": 0.622}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 220.891, \"end\": 221.072, \"score\": 0.607}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 221.072, \"end\": 221.332, \"score\": 0.693}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 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848.738, \"end\": 848.758, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"偉\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,208 --> 00:00:11,562\n好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:17,388 --> 00:00:40,074\n副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教\n\n3\n00:00:40,925 --> 00:01:03,159\n有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件\n\n4\n00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:15,130\n到目前為止我相信沒有人會把他單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍\n\n5\n00:01:18,507 --> 00:01:42,817\n跟委員說明有關於這個燕塞湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查\n\n6\n00:01:44,344 --> 00:02:03,242\n我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員\n\n7\n00:02:05,486 --> 00:02:25,183\n抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的\n\n8\n00:02:26,773 --> 00:02:50,925\n說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會\n\n9\n00:02:52,902 --> 00:03:14,915\n跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員\n\n10\n00:03:19,598 --> 00:03:42,552\n自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員\n\n11\n00:03:43,473 --> 00:03:47,854\n因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼\n\n12\n00:04:09,740 --> 00:04:32,486\n做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管\n\n13\n00:04:38,487 --> 00:04:59,961\n那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散說疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的它的相關的權責應該是什麼\n\n14\n00:05:02,923 --> 00:05:16,479\n應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說\n\n15\n00:05:18,342 --> 00:05:43,645\n我也很擔心啦根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講很多包含立法委員也好很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清對不對要求監察院趕快立案調查這次沒有啊\n\n16\n00:05:44,697 --> 00:06:11,081\n為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對\n\n17\n00:06:13,138 --> 00:06:39,005\n說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了\n\n18\n00:06:39,605 --> 00:06:43,347\n我的意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單\n\n19\n00:07:07,961 --> 00:07:21,068\n這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部農業部經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得確實這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題\n\n20\n00:07:32,754 --> 00:07:53,681\n另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計劃其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查\n\n21\n00:08:00,063 --> 00:08:05,628\n到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏\n\n22\n00:08:17,677 --> 00:08:31,476\n太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最\n\n23\n00:08:34,119 --> 00:08:40,163\n最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團各個罷團\n\n24\n00:09:00,134 --> 00:09:19,702\n整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款直接在做募款還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了\n\n25\n00:09:21,062 --> 00:09:38,445\n就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明\n\n26\n00:09:47,327 --> 00:10:07,552\n好所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修\n\n27\n00:10:10,103 --> 00:10:35,649\n就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與那因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以呢我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分\n\n28\n00:10:36,389 --> 00:10:57,911\n你們的意見是什麼包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免選舉罷免選舉罷免是那跟委員說明如果包括罷免它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分都是一套的法都要鳳鳴署長因為呢\n\n29\n00:10:59,153 --> 00:11:09,505\n這個越選舉我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹很嚴謹但是這次罷免法我剛講亂象重生\n\n30\n00:11:14,570 --> 00:11:26,295\n也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有\n\n31\n00:11:37,045 --> 00:11:52,248\n那罷免發動罷免他的錢從哪裡來都不知道而且你們根本不要管不願意管所以你們現在的修法的方向是把罷免\n\n32\n00:11:54,181 --> 00:12:10,349\n等同選舉一樣在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉他就選舉我們選舉的活動他的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見\n\n33\n00:12:14,534 --> 00:12:42,449\n不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生\n\n34\n00:12:43,149 --> 00:13:00,322\n所以為了好我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來\n\n35\n00:13:03,779 --> 00:13:29,232\n這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前妳什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪啊妳好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署我不懂欸我們剛剛就在講說妳監察院跟行政院是妳應該從基於妳的職責妳認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞\n\n36\n00:13:29,952 --> 00:13:51,946\n然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好\n\n37\n00:13:52,806 --> 00:14:08,758\n搞不好明年再來一個大罷免你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你不是嗎所以請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎好謝謝好謝謝王宏偉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8208\t11562\t好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長\n17388\t40074\t副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教\n40925\t63159\t有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件\n64640\t75130\t到目前為止我相信沒有人會把他單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍\n78507\t102817\t跟委員說明有關於這個燕塞湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查\n104344\t123242\t我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員\n125486\t145183\t抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的\n146773\t170925\t說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會\n172902\t194915\t跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之 謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員\n199598\t222552\t自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員\n223473\t227854\t因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼\n249740\t272486\t做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管\n278487\t299961\t那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散說疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的它的相關的權責應該是什麼\n302923\t316479\t應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說\n318342\t343645\t我也很擔心啦 根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現 過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講 很多包含立法委員也好 很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好 第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清對不對 要求監察院趕快立案調查這次沒有啊\n344697\t371081\t為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對\n373138\t399005\t說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了\n399605\t403347\t我的意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單\n427961\t441068\t這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部農業部經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得確實這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題\n452754\t473681\t另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計劃其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查\n480063\t485628\t到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏\n497677\t511476\t太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最\n514119\t520163\t最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團 各個罷團\n540134\t559702\t整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款直接在做募款還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了\n561062\t578445\t就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明\n587327\t607552\t好 所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修\n610103\t635649\t就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與那因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以呢我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分\n636389\t657911\t你們的意見是什麼 包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免 選舉罷免 選舉罷免是 那跟委員說明如果包括罷免 它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶 那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分 都是一套的法都要 鳳鳴署長 因為呢\n659153\t669505\t這個越選舉 我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹 很嚴謹但是這次罷免法 我剛講亂象重生\n674570\t686295\t也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有\n697045\t712248\t那罷免 發動罷免 他的錢從哪裡來都不知道 而且你們根本不要管 不願意管所以你們現在的修法的方向是把罷免\n714181\t730349\t等同選舉一樣 在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉他就選舉 我們選舉的活動他的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見\n734534\t762449\t不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生\n763149\t780322\t所以為了 好 我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來\n783779\t809232\t這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前 妳什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪啊 妳好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署 我不懂欸我們剛剛就在講說 妳監察院跟行政院是妳應該從基於妳的職責 妳認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞\n809952\t831946\t然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好\n832806\t848758\t搞不好明年再來一個大罷免 你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你 不是嗎所以 請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院 儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎 好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏偉\n","txt":"好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長\n副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教\n有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件\n到目前為止我相信沒有人會把他單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍\n跟委員說明有關於這個燕塞湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查\n我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員\n抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的\n說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會\n跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之 謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員\n自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員\n因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼\n做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管\n那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散說疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的它的相關的權責應該是什麼\n應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說\n我也很擔心啦 根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現 過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講 很多包含立法委員也好 很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好 第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清對不對 要求監察院趕快立案調查這次沒有啊\n為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對\n說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了\n我的意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單\n這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部農業部經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得確實這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題\n另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計劃其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查\n到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏\n太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最\n最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團 各個罷團\n整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款直接在做募款還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了\n就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明\n好 所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修\n就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與那因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以呢我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分\n你們的意見是什麼 包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免 選舉罷免 選舉罷免是 那跟委員說明如果包括罷免 它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶 那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分 都是一套的法都要 鳳鳴署長 因為呢\n這個越選舉 我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹 很嚴謹但是這次罷免法 我剛講亂象重生\n也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有\n那罷免 發動罷免 他的錢從哪裡來都不知道 而且你們根本不要管 不願意管所以你們現在的修法的方向是把罷免\n等同選舉一樣 在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉他就選舉 我們選舉的活動他的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見\n不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生\n所以為了 好 我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來\n這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前 妳什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪啊 妳好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署 我不懂欸我們剛剛就在講說 妳監察院跟行政院是妳應該從基於妳的職責 妳認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞\n然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好\n搞不好明年再來一個大罷免 你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你 不是嗎所以 請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院 儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎 好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏偉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.208 --> 00:11.562\n好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長\n\n00:17.388 --> 00:40.074\n副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教\n\n00:40.925 --> 01:03.159\n有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件\n\n01:04.640 --> 01:15.130\n到目前為止我相信沒有人會把他單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍\n\n01:18.507 --> 01:42.817\n跟委員說明有關於這個燕塞湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查\n\n01:44.344 --> 02:03.242\n我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員\n\n02:05.486 --> 02:25.183\n抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的\n\n02:26.773 --> 02:50.925\n說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會\n\n02:52.902 --> 03:14.915\n跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員\n\n03:19.598 --> 03:42.552\n自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員\n\n03:43.473 --> 03:47.854\n因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼\n\n04:09.740 --> 04:32.486\n做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管\n\n04:38.487 --> 04:59.961\n那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散說疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的它的相關的權責應該是什麼\n\n05:02.923 --> 05:16.479\n應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說\n\n05:18.342 --> 05:43.645\n我也很擔心啦根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講很多包含立法委員也好很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清對不對要求監察院趕快立案調查這次沒有啊\n\n05:44.697 --> 06:11.081\n為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對\n\n06:13.138 --> 06:39.005\n說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了\n\n06:39.605 --> 06:43.347\n我的意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單\n\n07:07.961 --> 07:21.068\n這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部農業部經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得確實這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題\n\n07:32.754 --> 07:53.681\n另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計劃其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查\n\n08:00.063 --> 08:05.628\n到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏\n\n08:17.677 --> 08:31.476\n太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最\n\n08:34.119 --> 08:40.163\n最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團各個罷團\n\n09:00.134 --> 09:19.702\n整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款直接在做募款還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了\n\n09:21.062 --> 09:38.445\n就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明\n\n09:47.327 --> 10:07.552\n好所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修\n\n10:10.103 --> 10:35.649\n就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與那因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以呢我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分\n\n10:36.389 --> 10:57.911\n你們的意見是什麼包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免選舉罷免選舉罷免是那跟委員說明如果包括罷免它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分都是一套的法都要鳳鳴署長因為呢\n\n10:59.153 --> 11:09.505\n這個越選舉我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹很嚴謹但是這次罷免法我剛講亂象重生\n\n11:14.570 --> 11:26.295\n也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有\n\n11:37.045 --> 11:52.248\n那罷免發動罷免他的錢從哪裡來都不知道而且你們根本不要管不願意管所以你們現在的修法的方向是把罷免\n\n11:54.181 --> 12:10.349\n等同選舉一樣在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉他就選舉我們選舉的活動他的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見\n\n12:14.534 --> 12:42.449\n不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生\n\n12:43.149 --> 13:00.322\n所以為了好我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來\n\n13:03.779 --> 13:29.232\n這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前妳什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪啊妳好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署我不懂欸我們剛剛就在講說妳監察院跟行政院是妳應該從基於妳的職責妳認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞\n\n13:29.952 --> 13:51.946\n然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好\n\n13:52.806 --> 14:08.758\n搞不好明年再來一個大罷免你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你不是嗎所以請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎好謝謝好謝謝王宏偉\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.208,"end":11.562,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我請一下副秘書長請副秘書長"},{"start":17.388,"end":40.074,"text":"副秘書長好今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫我必須說因為其他相關的部會有相關的立法計畫其實都蠻充實的你們的立法就感覺非常單薄但是相關的有一些我待會兒來跟你就教"},{"start":40.925,"end":63.159,"text":"有一件事情因為非常重要就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害也就是馬太安菸塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情也造成嚴重的傷亡到目前為止整個的救災過程仍然在持續中而這個事件"},{"start":64.64,"end":75.13,"text":"到目前為止我相信沒有人會把他單純定位為是天災而已你認為是單純的天災嗎有沒有人禍"},{"start":78.507,"end":102.817,"text":"跟委員說明有關於這個燕塞湖溢流的部分呢這個災情監察院有立案所以現在監察院您剛說所以你們定位為不是單純的天災而是應該有人模不章的問題對不對現在有委員在調查那請問一下你們什麼時候立案調查"},{"start":104.344,"end":123.242,"text":"我們依照院裡面的公文的日期是今年的10月2號10月2號調查現在這個調查是由監察委員主動來申請調查的嗎是的是哪幾位委員"},{"start":125.486,"end":145.183,"text":"抱歉委員因為委員沒有授權幕僚行政幕僚可以對外說明照理講過去很多的案件監察委員會主動申請調查這個都不是秘密是可以公開的"},{"start":146.773,"end":170.925,"text":"說明一下我們這樣好不好我給你一點時間好不好請你幕僚單位趕快因為既然已經10月2號已經立案調查那我們當然要外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查這個不是秘密所以可不可以就是至少在我們整個的今天的會議結束之前能夠告訴我們委員會"},{"start":172.902,"end":194.915,"text":"跟委員說明我知道是哪幾位委員調查可是因為要依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明我只能說明說這個案件監察院在10月2號已經立案調查有委員在調查中我是公務員我還是要依法為之 謝謝所以我還說我給你們時間因為過去很多委員"},{"start":199.598,"end":222.552,"text":"自己都公開說我要主動申請調查這件事情過去太多案件了這也不是第一次所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下盡量能夠在我們今天會議結束之前來通知我們委員會為什麼在這邊當然現在監察院已經有立案調查但是為什麼我們也想了解是哪些委員"},{"start":223.473,"end":227.854,"text":"因為剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到因為我們現在覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院太過配合行政院我們希望能夠在這次重大事件裡面監察院有沒有機會有沒有機會能夠有肩膀的能夠真正的去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任然後他們的疏失是什麼"},{"start":249.74,"end":272.486,"text":"做出合理的處置才能夠引招公信才能夠去跟所有的災民來做交代因為在這個案件裡面其實我們根據相關的法令很多法令其實定位得非常的清楚包含整個的菸塞湖馬太安溪的上中下游它是由包含分別為農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位來主管"},{"start":278.487,"end":299.961,"text":"那包含菸塞湖的處置監測也是由農業部還有疏散因為這一次呢在行政院的部分就責於地方政府的部分就是在於說疏散說疏散有瑕疵但是疏散的它的相關的權責應該是什麼"},{"start":302.923,"end":316.479,"text":"應該要獲得釐清所以今天監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院還有地方縣市政府之外你們應該是公道博但是老實說"},{"start":318.342,"end":343.645,"text":"我也很擔心啦 根據過去的監察院的記錄你有沒有發現 過去很長一段時間像這樣的書是照理講 很多包含立法委員也好 很多民意代表也好縣市政府也好 第一時間一定向監察院先去澄清對不對 要求監察院趕快立案調查這次沒有啊"},{"start":344.697,"end":371.081,"text":"為什麼沒有因為對監察院不報信心了那我本來想說趁著今天我還是對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心我認為監察院應該要介入做調查所以你可以看到最近以來其實監察院前面我想已經沒有什麼人過去去做去做陳情了對不對"},{"start":373.138,"end":399.005,"text":"說明我們今年的所說的陳情案七萬七千多件跟歷年或第五屆相較並沒有減少而且還微幅增加有微幅增加是不是但是要求你們比如說來自於立法院民意代表或縣市政府縣市議會去要求你們針對針對行政院的部分這樣的案子其實真的大幅減少了"},{"start":399.605,"end":403.347,"text":"我的意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面能夠發揮你們的角色因為這裡面太多其實依法很多就是從馬太安溪、菸塞湖、蘇散的路線以及收容所的整備還有包含你撤離的警報單這是最近大家熱議到底誰是主管這個撤離的警報單"},{"start":427.961,"end":441.068,"text":"這個過去其實都有全責的劃分包含撤離警報單是包含是內政部農業部經濟部跟地方政府共同決議但是主管是誰這點非常重要10月2號立案調查我覺得確實這個確實有人禍的問題而不是單純的一個天災問題"},{"start":452.754,"end":473.681,"text":"另外剛才我又就叫我們監察院副秘書長你們現在有修法計劃其中有政治獻金的是政治獻金法這一塊可是看起來按照你們這個時程最早最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法的修正在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日韓宋行政院審查"},{"start":480.063,"end":485.628,"text":"到了今年的10月2號再召開第11次的審查會議我想請問副秘書長在我們這次大罷免裡面其實選罷法也好或者政治獻金法也好我們出現太多的疏漏"},{"start":497.677,"end":511.476,"text":"太多法沒有去明確定義而造成太多的在灰色地帶其中就是有關於政治獻金這一塊那尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象我們覺得最"},{"start":514.119,"end":520.163,"text":"最不平衡的地方就是我們遵守政治獻金法因為在大罷免罷免是都不能夠去接受政治獻金因為我們是被罷免而且我們是立法委員我們必須守法不知道幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們我們的罷團 各個罷團"},{"start":540.134,"end":559.702,"text":"整個的有關於政治獻金募款亂象重生裡面有自己像我自己的罷團裡面在群組裡面直接的在做募款直接在做募款還有其他的罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了"},{"start":561.062,"end":578.445,"text":"就質疑說這個募款之前的領銜人或之前的主導人募款募款到哪裡去了然後自己內部就吵起來了在大罷免過程這就證明他們確實有募款那更不要說在基隆市長謝國良罷免案裡面後來出現爭議罷免團體透過募資平台去募款到現在資金流向不明"},{"start":587.327,"end":607.552,"text":"好 所以這麼多的亂象政治先進法本來就應該修正有疏漏所以我請問副秘書長在這次政治先進法的修正裡面這是你們極為極為極為少數的要修法的你們內容很少請問你們要怎麼修"},{"start":610.103,"end":635.649,"text":"就是剛剛委員所了解的就是其實行政院在修法的過程中監察院都有積極的參與那因為我們是完全執行政治先進法的機關我們雖然不是法的主管機關可是完全都是由監察院來執行所以呢我們的建議就是在這次修法要對於政治活動第二條政治活動的定義必須非常的明確有沒有包括罷免的部分"},{"start":636.389,"end":657.911,"text":"你們的意見是什麼 包包和罷免呢我們是認為應該要包括罷免當然應該包含罷免 選舉罷免 選舉罷免是 那跟委員說明如果包括罷免 它是有一整套法系必須要修正那如何開專戶 那誰能夠收現金的部分政治現金的部分 都是一套的法都要 鳳鳴署長 因為呢"},{"start":659.153,"end":669.505,"text":"這個越選舉 我們台灣這個民主社會已經選舉大家經驗非常多而且那個政治先進法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹 很嚴謹但是這次罷免法 我剛講亂象重生"},{"start":674.57,"end":686.295,"text":"也都罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道來自於哪裡也都不知道雖然比如說包含我們行政單位或者我們民進黨立法院同仁一天到晚在講國安法有沒有什麼反滲透法有沒有什麼境外勢力你這邊根本連法都沒有"},{"start":697.045,"end":712.248,"text":"那罷免 發動罷免 他的錢從哪裡來都不知道 而且你們根本不要管 不願意管所以你們現在的修法的方向是把罷免"},{"start":714.181,"end":730.349,"text":"等同選舉一樣 在政治先進法裡面是不是把罷免等同選舉他就選舉 我們選舉的活動他的相關的政治先進的規定應該完全適用在罷免上面這是不是你們的意見"},{"start":734.534,"end":762.449,"text":"不然的話實在是太亂了雖然很多人說這次大罷免可能絕對是空前有人說可能絕後了啦不會再有這種胡搞亂搞的這樣的一個政治活動但是很難說喔很難說喔哪天誰曉得這個民進黨又覺得哪一個他輸不起又想發動大罷免的時候又重新來過也未必不可能發生"},{"start":763.149,"end":780.322,"text":"所以為了 好 我覺得因為我們是通過大罷免即便什麼我們說我們拿到無敵信心但是我覺得制度一定要建立那請問一下你所了解這個有關政治獻金法你們的修法期程在什麼時候可以送到立法院來"},{"start":783.779,"end":809.232,"text":"這個可能還是要尊重這個按照行政院的流程那目前 妳什麼都尊重行政院我覺得好奇怪啊 妳好像行政院監察部是不是還是行政院監察署 我不懂欸我們剛剛就在講說 妳監察院跟行政院是妳應該從基於妳的職責 妳認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治陷阱的漏洞"},{"start":809.952,"end":831.946,"text":"然後你要求先你們有你們意見然後要求行政院趕快做修法宅隊尊重尊重行政院是你長官嗎我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見而且非常的嚴謹那也都參與那因為這個法的主管機關是內政部他還是依照法制的程序就是你剛剛講你是執行機關我是執行機關對不對你說搞不好"},{"start":832.806,"end":848.758,"text":"搞不好明年再來一個大罷免 你要怎麼執行然後大家都質疑你 不是嗎所以 請你趕快也回去就這個政治獻金法你們是平行單位要求行政院 儘速提出送到立法院來審查好嗎 好 謝謝好 謝謝王宏偉"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時53分）謝謝主席，請副秘書長。"],["主席：請副秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長好。今天是來立法院報告你們相關的立法計畫，我必須說因為其他部會相關的立法計畫其實都滿充實的，你們的立法計畫就感覺非常單薄，但是有一些相關的部分，我待會來跟你就教。有一件事情非常重要，就是最近在花蓮發生的重大災害，也就是馬太鞍堰塞湖溢流而造成嚴重的災情，也造成嚴重的傷亡，到目前為止，整個救災過程仍然在持續中，而這個事件到目前為止，我相信沒有人會把它單純定位為是天災而已！你認為是單純的天災嗎？有沒有人禍？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，有關於這個堰塞湖溢流的災情部分，監察院有立案。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，您剛剛說現在監察院把它定位為不是單純的天災，而是應該有人謀不臧的問題，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們現在有委員在調查。"],["王委員鴻薇：那請問一下，你們什麼時候立案調查？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們依照院裡面公文的日期是今年的10月2日。"],["王委員鴻薇：10月2日調查。這個調查是由監察委員主動申請調查的嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：是哪幾位委員？"],["王代理秘書長增華：抱歉，委員，因為委員沒有授權行政幕僚可以對外說明。"],["王委員鴻薇：照理講，過去很多的案件，監察委員會主動申請調查，這都不是秘密，是可以公開的。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明一下……"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣好不好，我給你一點時間好不好？因為既然10月2日已經立案調查，當然外界要知道到底是哪些監察委員在做調查，這個不是秘密，所以幕僚單位可不可以至少在今天整個會議結束之前，能夠告訴我們委員會。"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我知道是哪幾位委員調查，可是因為依法我現在不能夠做這樣子的說明，我只能說明這個案件監察院在10月2日已經立案調查，有委員在調查中，我是公務員，我還是要依法為之，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我才說給你們時間，因為過去很多委員都是自己公開說我這個公開、我要主動申請調查這件事，過去太多案件了，這也不是第一次，所以請幕僚能夠去了解一下，儘量能夠在今天會議結束之前通知我們委員會。","為什麼在這邊說？當然現在監察院已經有立案調查，但是我們也想了解是哪些委員，剛才吳宗憲委員也特別提到，因為我們覺得現在的監察院太過配合行政院，我們希望能夠在這次的重大事件，監察院有沒有機會，能夠有肩膀的、真正地去調查所有相關單位應該負起的責任，然後他們的疏失是什麼，做出合理的處置，才能夠以昭公信，才能夠去跟所有的災民做交代。在這個案件裡面，根據相關的法令，其實很多法令定位得非常清楚，包含整個堰塞湖、馬太鞍溪的上、中、下游，分別是由農業部以及經濟部所屬相關單位主管，包含堰塞湖的處置、監測，也是由農業部，還有疏散，因為這一次行政院，究責地方政府的部分就是在於疏散，說疏散有瑕疵，但是疏散的相關權責應該是什麼，應該要獲得釐清。","所以監察院你們應該是獨立於行政院、地方縣市政府之外，你們應該是公道伯，但是老實說我也很擔心，根據過去的監察院紀錄，你有沒有發現，過去很長一段時間，像這樣的疏失，照理講不管立法委員也好，民意代表也好，縣市政府也好，第一時間一定先向監察院陳情，要求監察院趕快立案調查，但這次沒有，為什麼沒有？因為對監察院不抱信心了，我想說趁著今天我對監察院仍然保留最後最後一點的信心，我認為監察院應該要介入調查。所以你可以看到最近以來，監察院前面已經沒有什麼人過去陳情了，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員說明，我們本屆到今年的陳情案七萬七千多件，跟歷年或第5屆相較，並沒有減少，而且還微幅增加。"],["王委員鴻薇：有微幅增加，是不是？"],["王代理秘書長增華：微幅增加，對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是要求你們的部分，譬如來自於立法院、民意代表或縣市政府、縣市議會要求你們針對行政院的部分，這樣的案子真的大幅減少了，我意思就是希望監察院能在這個事件裡面發揮你們的角色。因為從馬太鞍溪、堰塞湖疏散的路線及收容所的整備，還有包含撤離警報單，這也是最近大家熱議的，到底是誰主管這個撤離的警報單，過去其實都有權責的劃分，撤離警報單是由內政部、農業部、經濟部跟地方政府共同決議，但是主管是誰，這點非常重要。10月2日立案調查，我覺得這個確實有人禍的問題，而不是單純的天災問題。","另外，剛才我又就教監察院副秘書長，你們現在有修法計畫，其中有政治獻金的政治獻金法這一塊，可是按照你們這個時程看起來，最早內政部提出來的政治獻金法修正，在你們報告裡面是109年6月30日函送行政院審查，到了今年的10月2日召開第11次的審查會議。我想請問副秘書長，在這次大罷免裡面，不論是選罷法或者政治獻金法，都出現太多的疏漏，太多法沒有去明確定義，而造成太多的灰色地帶，其中就是有關政治獻金這一塊。尤其像我自己本身也是被大罷免的對象，我們覺得最不能夠、最不平衡的地方，就是我們遵守政治獻金法，因為在大罷免，罷免是都不能夠接受政治獻金，因為我們是被罷免，而且我們是立法委員嘛，我們必須守法，幾千萬隻的眼睛在看著我們。但是各個罷團政治獻金募款亂象叢生，像我的罷團直接在群組裡面募款，還有其他罷團在大罷免的過程裡面就窩裡反了，質疑之前的領銜人或主導人的募款到哪裡去了，自己內部就吵起來了，這就證明在大罷免過程中他們確實有募款，更不要說在基隆市長謝國樑罷免案裡面後來出現爭議，罷免團體透過募資平臺去募款，到現在資金流向不明。所以這麼多的亂象，政治獻金法有疏漏，本來就應該修正，我請問副秘書長，在這一次政治獻金法的修正裡面，這是你們極為、極為、極為少數要修法的，你們的內容很少，請問你們要怎麼修？"],["王代理秘書長增華：就是剛剛委員所了解的，其實在行政院修法的過程中，監察院都有積極的參與，因為我們是完全執行政治獻金法的機關，我們雖然不是法的主管機關，可是完全是由監察院來執行，所以我們就建議在這次修法對於第二條政治活動的定義必須非常明確，有沒有包括罷免的部分，那如果……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們的意見是什麼？包不包含罷免呢？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們是認為應該要包括「罷免」。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然應該包含罷免，因為「選舉」、「罷免」。"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，跟委員說明，如果包括罷免，它是有一整套法系必須要修正，如何開專戶？誰能夠收政治獻金的部分？都是一套的法要修正。"],["王委員鴻薇：副秘書長，因為我們臺灣民主社會，大家選舉經驗已經非常多，而且政治獻金法透過每一次選舉其實越修越嚴謹，很嚴謹，但是這次罷免法我剛剛講的，亂象叢生，有的罷免團體到現在募款到哪裡去了都不知道，來自於哪裡也都不知道，雖然譬如說包含我們行政單位或者民進黨立法院同仁，一天到晚在講國安法、有沒有什麼反滲透法、有沒有什麼境外勢力，你這邊根本連法都沒有，發動罷免的錢從哪裡來都不知道，而且你們根本不要管、不願意管，所以你們現在修法的方向是把罷免視同選舉一樣，在政治獻金法裡面是不是把罷免視同選舉？我們選舉活動相關的政治獻金規定應該完全適用在罷免上面，這是不是你們的意見？"],["王代理秘書長增華：原則上是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：不然的話實在是太亂了，雖然很多人說這次大罷免絕對是空前，有人說可能絕後了啦！不會再有這麼胡搞亂搞的政治活動，但是很難說喔！誰曉得哪天民進黨又覺得哪一個輸不起又發動大罷免，也未必不可能發生，因為我們通過了大罷免，即便說什麼我們拿得到無敵星星，但是我覺得制度一定要建立，請問一下，就你所了解的政治獻金法的修法期程，大概什麼時候可以送到立法院來？"],["王代理秘書長增華：這個可能還是要尊重……按照行政院的流程，目前……"],["王委員鴻薇：你什麼都尊重行政院，我覺得好奇怪，你好像行政院監察部是不是？還是行政院監察署？"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員，這個法……"],["王委員鴻薇：我不懂耶！我們剛才就在講說監察院與行政院，你應該基於你的職責，你認為在這一次的大罷免裡面已經出現這樣政治獻金的漏洞，然後你們有你們的意見，要求行政院趕快修法才對，說尊重、尊重，行政院是你的長官嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：報告委員，我們真的都有提出來相關的修法意見，而且非常嚴謹，也都有參與，因為這個法的主管機關是內政部，它還是依照法制的程序，就是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你剛剛講你是執行機關。"],["王代理秘書長增華：我是執行機關。"],["王委員鴻薇：對不對？搞不好明年再來一個大罷免，你要怎麼執行？然後大家都質疑你，不是嗎？所以請你趕快回去就政治獻金法，你們是平行單位，要求行政院儘速提出送到立法院來審查，好嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。王委員這個詢問其實很有道理，但是他應該只是問到一面，現在是發動罷免的領銜人跟被罷免的人其實都要一併去談，確實是這樣，你說是亂象，我也認為是現在整個法制不足的地方，不然我也聽到一大堆被罷免的人到處去募款，現在也都沒有法律規範，確實是法制要把它補起來，對監察院來講或者對司法，還有對本院來講的話，送到本院來做審查，這也是很有必要的一件事情。","接下來請沈發惠委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}}