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{\"word\": \"5\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"%\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 695.601, \"end\": 695.621, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 695.621, \"end\": 695.721, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 695.721, \"end\": 695.741, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,409 --> 00:00:04,611\n謝謝主席我們有請部長請部長王媛好\n\n2\n00:00:11,892 --> 00:00:26,243\n部長好部長這個長榮航空的空姐他因為身體不適然後沒有及早送醫最後導致他不幸過世大家其實是覺得這是一個讓人家非常悲傷的消息那這樣一個情況我覺得勞動部作為主管機關對於這一種違規大戶\n\n3\n00:00:32,188 --> 00:00:51,959\n你們的這個勞檢還有你們的敏感度還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足然後罰款過低我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討我就讓各位看一下就是從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的他們違反相關的法規\n\n4\n00:00:53,180 --> 00:01:19,271\n那有兩大類型就是一個是勞基法跟工會法另外一個是性平工作法那在這樣的一個情況底下你可以看到他的頻率是高的我們先來看這個性平工作法的部分性工法的部分他在去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件\n\n5\n00:01:20,677 --> 00:01:44,110\n到今年這樣的一個情況還有育嬰留子停薪遭到不利處分請生理假遭到不利處分家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分他的頻率真的是太高了這麼高的一個情況底下你可以看到他罰的錢是多少每一次都是2萬塊都沒有改變\n\n6\n00:01:46,304 --> 00:02:08,837\n這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講你認為這樣的一個裁罰金額對他來講是不是不痛不癢他完全不會發揮任何你的這個裁罰效果嗎所以他當然就是一再的忽視你整個性供法裡面所範定的內容\n\n7\n00:02:10,031 --> 00:02:32,699\n跟文說明我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說那有一些裁罰的金額以他發生的頻次來說的話裁罰金額是太低的那這部分當然是因為這是這部分是地方政府罰的啦我們的法令是地方政府法那我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論不只是這樣子我們會跟台灣市勞檢處討論相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定\n\n8\n00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:51,425\n第二頁事實上我們現在為什麼地方政府他其實是裁罰這樣的金額他也可以再往上裁罰但是我們比較現在的性供法跟勞基法其實同樣是長榮航空勞基法罰的比較重\n\n9\n00:02:52,225 --> 00:03:10,542\n在新公法裡面就罰得比較輕為什麼因為我們的勞基法裡面他有多增加一個主管機關得一事業規模違反人數或違反情節加重其法環制法定法環的最高額二分之一\n\n10\n00:03:11,543 --> 00:03:30,095\n這個就是在原來的母法裡面我覺得勞動基準法他給了一個比較明確的方向告訴主管機關你要是事業的規模違反的人數違規的情節加重罰則但是我們的性供法第38條完全沒有\n\n11\n00:03:30,915 --> 00:03:52,733\n這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差底下一樣是執行的單位主管機關它其實就產生了不同的效果那這個部分我要求我們勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法如果針對這種一再違反事業規模又這麼大它員工人數這麼多事實上這次的這個裁罰連續都是兩萬塊我個人覺得是過輕了\n\n12\n00:03:55,195 --> 00:04:11,384\n這個部分是不是有檢討的空間我們是不是可以在性供法裡面比照勞基法我們其實給出同樣的這樣的一個修法的重點然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候他們可以按照法的精神就是予以適當的裁法\n\n13\n00:04:11,772 --> 00:04:40,195\n委員其實按照這條文來看很清楚其實當然地方主管機關不一定一定只能罰兩萬塊啊當然他當然可以提高啊他可以試他的嚴重的程度他的頻率的程度但是當我們的法例如果比照牢記法是這樣子寫的時候他在執法上面他就更敢就是去依照依法行政他就更沒有任何其他的壓力了\n\n14\n00:04:40,555 --> 00:04:59,634\n所以我認為這個法的部分其實應該是可以去做一些調整的那另外一個我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府就將來在面對這樣的法的時候性供法按照現行還是2到30萬如果他是累犯本來就可以往上加但是未來的修法我覺得也很有必要\n\n15\n00:05:00,054 --> 00:05:28,433\n就是讓他在執法上面有一致性大家不會各自去解讀這個是我的建議第二個是有關於這次我們看到這個生病空服員生病不敢請假的這件事喔這個的確我覺得是蠻誇張的因為這個基本的這個健康權這個就是應該是要被保障的那現在呢有人在網路上PO出來說有這個某間公司生病是明碼標價的\n\n16\n00:05:30,395 --> 00:05:44,493\n就是平常生病扣1分週末連續假日扣2分跨年農曆新年生病扣3分我覺得這個是非常誇張的就是生病然後扣分\n\n17\n00:05:46,398 --> 00:06:13,424\n這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查查清楚這個是有人放在網路上面的消息那如果這件事情屬實的話我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令這個是很嚴重的違反如果他暗暗地裡有這樣的一個制度在施行的話這已經是違反人性了這是完全不被允許的所以第一個\n\n18\n00:06:14,284 --> 00:06:26,503\n我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司有人在網路上是這樣子寫這樣子暗指我覺得你們有調查權你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司第二個\n\n19\n00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:47,125\n現在在性平法裡面呢他其實有就是規定就是不立處分的話他是有相關法條在講你不得做出不立處分但是反而我覺得就是我們現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方勞基法是三條其實九條\n\n20\n00:06:48,445 --> 00:07:05,139\n有規定你一定要給病假但是給了之後就像這個誇張的公司我給你啊但是我給你扣分做不利處分我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定其實是沒有的\n\n21\n00:07:06,248 --> 00:07:27,066\n跟文說明的確我們認為如果勞工明明就生病那其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班其實我們覺得不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況那所以我們這幾天其實我們做了一些內部的研議第一個是因為\n\n22\n00:07:27,759 --> 00:07:49,330\n很多的這個我們看到也不只是航空業其實蠻多公司他會把這個請病假去跟像全勤獎金來做聯動那我們看到其實我們在包括一些法院的判決裡面判到全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的其中一部分所以我們接下來我們也會用比較制度性的要求那比方說\n\n23\n00:07:50,715 --> 00:08:05,743\n勞工請病假不應該就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金好那像這個這個部分那我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益那至於但還有更多其他的這個不利的不利的\n\n24\n00:08:06,663 --> 00:08:27,417\n處分的狀況因為不利處分的樣態其實是蠻多的那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那這有些部分我覺得我們是願意來做一些綜合的檢視我希望經由這次的事件勞工的他生病請假這個是天經地義這一定要保障因為這涉及到他的健康權\n\n25\n00:08:28,317 --> 00:08:52,032\n那這個部分經過這次事件我希望整個勞動部通盤的來檢討未來怎麼樣在你的政策甚至在勞基法裡面這種不利處分的情況就是我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正改善或他得到適當的懲處這個是我們應該要去做的事情我希望你們你們大概檢討完之後什麼時候可以提出一個你們比較完整的調整的報告\n\n26\n00:08:53,164 --> 00:09:17,029\n我想其實因為這確實會需要一點時間因為我剛才說一個月好不好應該是一個月可以好你們一個月之後把你們這個修我們兩個月好不好對因為我們是兩個月就要很完整喔我們是真的有在檢討這件事情啦對因為從這個事件我想國人也希望這個勞動部要有一些作為出來好不好是好那兩個月要提出來最後一個我要問的是跟今天修法有關的\n\n27\n00:09:18,550 --> 00:09:33,030\n這個霸凌案的調查我個人認為最重要的就是這些委員事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的這個調查事件第一版的調查官官相護所以呢沒有人需要懲處沒有人需要負責\n\n28\n00:09:34,292 --> 00:09:50,732\n那社會輿論發酵之後你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來那我在這次的修法裡面職安法修法裡面呢我特別就針對職安法22條之3我認為外聘委員的比例\n\n29\n00:09:51,272 --> 00:10:12,208\n至少要超過一半我就是要杜絕官官相互我也希望委員可以保有這樣的一個專業性跟中立性我更希望的是這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定為什麼\n\n30\n00:10:12,711 --> 00:10:38,318\n跟委員說明其實因為原本治安法的這個體力其實有很多相關的會是一個框架性跟原則性的訂定那我們的確也看到蠻多委員會關心比方說我們調查希望僱主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序那大家很關心說裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定其實我覺得我們是可以接受比方說到時候我們在\n\n31\n00:10:39,238 --> 00:10:58,953\n在審查的時候我們把相關的要求也許用一個附帶決議的方式那大家把它給要求進去放在執法裡面我為什麼堅持這一條呢其他程序你們在執法可以訂定因為我認為一個調查報告我自己過去也待過地方一個調查報告的關鍵坦白講就在這些委員身上\n\n32\n00:10:59,693 --> 00:11:21,483\n敢不敢深入調查要不要深入調查可不可以還原事實委員自為關鍵如果你委員的比例亂定一通然後官官相互其他的以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了所以這個其實是源頭我們在執法裡面我們其實也說明我們基本上會不會要定至少二分之一\n\n33\n00:11:22,444 --> 00:11:35,741\n對我要求一定是要二分之一因為這樣子你才能確保霸凌案的調查報告至關重要他關乎會不會成案委員就非常的重要好不好這一點我是非常堅持的就是一定要超過50%好以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2409\t4611\t謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長王媛好\n11892\t26243\t部長好部長這個長榮航空的空姐他因為身體不適然後沒有及早送醫最後導致他不幸過世大家其實是覺得這是一個讓人家非常悲傷的消息那這樣一個情況我覺得勞動部作為主管機關對於這一種違規大戶\n32188\t51959\t你們的這個勞檢還有你們的敏感度還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足然後罰款過低我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討我就讓各位看一下就是從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的他們違反相關的法規\n53180\t79271\t那有兩大類型就是一個是勞基法跟工會法另外一個是性平工作法那在這樣的一個情況底下你可以看到他的頻率是高的我們先來看這個性平工作法的部分性工法的部分他在去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件\n80677\t104110\t到今年這樣的一個情況還有育嬰留子停薪遭到不利處分請生理假遭到不利處分家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分他的頻率真的是太高了這麼高的一個情況底下你可以看到他罰的錢是多少每一次都是2萬塊都沒有改變\n106304\t128837\t這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講你認為這樣的一個裁罰金額對他來講是不是不痛不癢他完全不會發揮任何你的這個裁罰效果嗎所以他當然就是一再的忽視你整個性供法裡面所範定的內容\n130031\t152699\t跟文說明我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說那有一些裁罰的金額以他發生的頻次來說的話裁罰金額是太低的那這部分當然是因為這是這部分是地方政府罰的啦我們的法令是地方政府法那我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論不只是這樣子我們會跟台灣市勞檢處討論相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定\n156800\t171425\t第二頁事實上我們現在為什麼地方政府他其實是裁罰這樣的金額他也可以再往上裁罰但是我們比較現在的性供法跟勞基法其實同樣是長榮航空勞基法罰的比較重\n172225\t190542\t在新公法裡面就罰得比較輕為什麼因為我們的勞基法裡面他有多增加一個主管機關得一事業規模違反人數或違反情節加重其法環制法定法環的最高額二分之一\n191543\t210095\t這個就是在原來的母法裡面我覺得勞動基準法他給了一個比較明確的方向告訴主管機關你要是事業的規模違反的人數違規的情節加重罰則但是我們的性供法第38條完全沒有\n210915\t232733\t這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差底下一樣是執行的單位主管機關它其實就產生了不同的效果那這個部分我要求我們勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法如果針對這種一再違反事業規模又這麼大 它員工人數這麼多事實上這次的這個裁罰連續都是兩萬塊 我個人覺得是過輕了\n235195\t251384\t這個部分是不是有檢討的空間我們是不是可以在性供法裡面比照勞基法我們其實給出同樣的這樣的一個修法的重點然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候他們可以按照法的精神就是予以適當的裁法\n251772\t280195\t委員其實按照這條文來看很清楚其實當然地方主管機關不一定一定只能罰兩萬塊啊當然他當然可以提高啊他可以試他的嚴重的程度他的頻率的程度但是當我們的法例如果比照牢記法是這樣子寫的時候他在執法上面他就更敢就是去依照依法行政他就更沒有任何其他的壓力了\n280555\t299634\t所以我認為這個法的部分其實應該是可以去做一些調整的那另外一個我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府就將來在面對這樣的法的時候性供法按照現行還是2到30萬如果他是累犯本來就可以往上加但是未來的修法我覺得也很有必要\n300054\t328433\t就是讓他在執法上面有一致性大家不會各自去解讀這個是我的建議第二個是有關於這次我們看到這個生病空服員生病不敢請假的這件事喔這個的確我覺得是蠻誇張的因為這個基本的這個健康權這個就是應該是要被保障的那現在呢有人在網路上PO出來說有這個某間公司生病是明碼標價的\n330395\t344493\t就是平常生病扣1分週末連續假日扣2分跨年農曆新年生病扣3分我覺得這個是非常誇張的就是生病然後扣分\n346398\t373424\t這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查查清楚這個是有人放在網路上面的消息那如果這件事情屬實的話我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令這個是很嚴重的違反如果他暗暗地裡有這樣的一個制度在施行的話這已經是違反人性了這是完全不被允許的所以第一個\n374284\t386503\t我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司有人在網路上是這樣子寫這樣子暗指我覺得你們有調查權你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司第二個\n387960\t407125\t現在在性平法裡面呢他其實有就是規定就是不立處分的話他是有相關法條在講你不得做出不立處分但是反而我覺得就是我們現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方勞基法是三條其實九條\n408445\t425139\t有規定你一定要給病假但是給了之後就像這個誇張的公司我給你啊但是我給你扣分做不利處分我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定其實是沒有的\n426248\t447066\t跟文說明的確我們認為如果勞工明明就生病那其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班其實我們覺得不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況那所以我們這幾天其實我們做了一些內部的研議第一個是因為\n447759\t469330\t很多的這個我們看到也不只是航空業其實蠻多公司他會把這個請病假去跟像全勤獎金來做聯動那我們看到其實我們在包括一些法院的判決裡面判到全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的其中一部分所以我們接下來我們也會用比較制度性的要求那比方說\n470715\t485743\t勞工請病假不應該就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金好那像這個這個部分那我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益那至於但還有更多其他的這個不利的不利的\n486663\t507417\t處分的狀況因為不利處分的樣態其實是蠻多的那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那這有些部分我覺得我們是願意來做一些綜合的檢視我希望經由這次的事件勞工的他生病請假這個是天經地義這一定要保障因為這涉及到他的健康權\n508317\t532032\t那這個部分經過這次事件我希望整個勞動部通盤的來檢討未來怎麼樣在你的政策甚至在勞基法裡面這種不利處分的情況就是我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正改善或他得到適當的懲處這個是我們應該要去做的事情我希望你們你們大概檢討完之後什麼時候可以提出一個你們比較完整的調整的報告\n533164\t557029\t我想其實因為這確實會需要一點時間因為我剛才說一個月好不好應該是一個月可以好你們一個月之後把你們這個修我們兩個月好不好對因為我們是兩個月就要很完整喔我們是真的有在檢討這件事情啦對因為從這個事件我想國人也希望這個勞動部要有一些作為出來好不好是好那兩個月要提出來最後一個我要問的是跟今天修法有關的\n558550\t573030\t這個霸凌案的調查我個人認為最重要的就是這些委員事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的這個調查事件第一版的調查官官相護所以呢沒有人需要懲處沒有人需要負責\n574292\t590732\t那社會輿論發酵之後 你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來那我在這次的修法裡面 職安法修法裡面呢我特別就針對職安法22條之3我認為外聘委員的比例\n591272\t612208\t至少要超過一半我就是要杜絕官官相互我也希望委員可以保有這樣的一個專業性跟中立性我更希望的是這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定 為什麼\n612711\t638318\t跟委員說明其實因為原本治安法的這個體力其實有很多相關的會是一個框架性跟原則性的訂定那我們的確也看到蠻多委員會關心比方說我們調查希望僱主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序那大家很關心說裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定其實我覺得我們是可以接受比方說到時候我們在\n639238\t658953\t在審查的時候 我們把相關的要求 也許用一個附帶決議的方式那大家把它給要求進去 放在執法裡面我為什麼堅持這一條呢 其他程序你們在執法可以訂定因為我認為一個調查報告 我自己過去也待過地方一個調查報告的關鍵 坦白講就在這些委員身上\n659693\t681483\t敢不敢深入調查要不要深入調查可不可以還原事實委員自為關鍵如果你委員的比例亂定一通然後官官相互其他的以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了所以這個其實是源頭我們在執法裡面我們其實也說明我們基本上會不會要定至少二分之一\n682444\t695741\t對 我要求一定是要二分之一因為這樣子你才能確保霸凌案的調查報告至關重要他關乎會不會成案委員就非常的重要好不好這一點我是非常堅持的就是一定要超過50%好 以上謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長王媛好\n部長好部長這個長榮航空的空姐他因為身體不適然後沒有及早送醫最後導致他不幸過世大家其實是覺得這是一個讓人家非常悲傷的消息那這樣一個情況我覺得勞動部作為主管機關對於這一種違規大戶\n你們的這個勞檢還有你們的敏感度還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足然後罰款過低我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討我就讓各位看一下就是從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的他們違反相關的法規\n那有兩大類型就是一個是勞基法跟工會法另外一個是性平工作法那在這樣的一個情況底下你可以看到他的頻率是高的我們先來看這個性平工作法的部分性工法的部分他在去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件\n到今年這樣的一個情況還有育嬰留子停薪遭到不利處分請生理假遭到不利處分家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分他的頻率真的是太高了這麼高的一個情況底下你可以看到他罰的錢是多少每一次都是2萬塊都沒有改變\n這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講你認為這樣的一個裁罰金額對他來講是不是不痛不癢他完全不會發揮任何你的這個裁罰效果嗎所以他當然就是一再的忽視你整個性供法裡面所範定的內容\n跟文說明我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說那有一些裁罰的金額以他發生的頻次來說的話裁罰金額是太低的那這部分當然是因為這是這部分是地方政府罰的啦我們的法令是地方政府法那我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論不只是這樣子我們會跟台灣市勞檢處討論相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定\n第二頁事實上我們現在為什麼地方政府他其實是裁罰這樣的金額他也可以再往上裁罰但是我們比較現在的性供法跟勞基法其實同樣是長榮航空勞基法罰的比較重\n在新公法裡面就罰得比較輕為什麼因為我們的勞基法裡面他有多增加一個主管機關得一事業規模違反人數或違反情節加重其法環制法定法環的最高額二分之一\n這個就是在原來的母法裡面我覺得勞動基準法他給了一個比較明確的方向告訴主管機關你要是事業的規模違反的人數違規的情節加重罰則但是我們的性供法第38條完全沒有\n這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差底下一樣是執行的單位主管機關它其實就產生了不同的效果那這個部分我要求我們勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法如果針對這種一再違反事業規模又這麼大 它員工人數這麼多事實上這次的這個裁罰連續都是兩萬塊 我個人覺得是過輕了\n這個部分是不是有檢討的空間我們是不是可以在性供法裡面比照勞基法我們其實給出同樣的這樣的一個修法的重點然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候他們可以按照法的精神就是予以適當的裁法\n委員其實按照這條文來看很清楚其實當然地方主管機關不一定一定只能罰兩萬塊啊當然他當然可以提高啊他可以試他的嚴重的程度他的頻率的程度但是當我們的法例如果比照牢記法是這樣子寫的時候他在執法上面他就更敢就是去依照依法行政他就更沒有任何其他的壓力了\n所以我認為這個法的部分其實應該是可以去做一些調整的那另外一個我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府就將來在面對這樣的法的時候性供法按照現行還是2到30萬如果他是累犯本來就可以往上加但是未來的修法我覺得也很有必要\n就是讓他在執法上面有一致性大家不會各自去解讀這個是我的建議第二個是有關於這次我們看到這個生病空服員生病不敢請假的這件事喔這個的確我覺得是蠻誇張的因為這個基本的這個健康權這個就是應該是要被保障的那現在呢有人在網路上PO出來說有這個某間公司生病是明碼標價的\n就是平常生病扣1分週末連續假日扣2分跨年農曆新年生病扣3分我覺得這個是非常誇張的就是生病然後扣分\n這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查查清楚這個是有人放在網路上面的消息那如果這件事情屬實的話我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令這個是很嚴重的違反如果他暗暗地裡有這樣的一個制度在施行的話這已經是違反人性了這是完全不被允許的所以第一個\n我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司有人在網路上是這樣子寫這樣子暗指我覺得你們有調查權你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司第二個\n現在在性平法裡面呢他其實有就是規定就是不立處分的話他是有相關法條在講你不得做出不立處分但是反而我覺得就是我們現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方勞基法是三條其實九條\n有規定你一定要給病假但是給了之後就像這個誇張的公司我給你啊但是我給你扣分做不利處分我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定其實是沒有的\n跟文說明的確我們認為如果勞工明明就生病那其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班其實我們覺得不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況那所以我們這幾天其實我們做了一些內部的研議第一個是因為\n很多的這個我們看到也不只是航空業其實蠻多公司他會把這個請病假去跟像全勤獎金來做聯動那我們看到其實我們在包括一些法院的判決裡面判到全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的其中一部分所以我們接下來我們也會用比較制度性的要求那比方說\n勞工請病假不應該就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金好那像這個這個部分那我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益那至於但還有更多其他的這個不利的不利的\n處分的狀況因為不利處分的樣態其實是蠻多的那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那這有些部分我覺得我們是願意來做一些綜合的檢視我希望經由這次的事件勞工的他生病請假這個是天經地義這一定要保障因為這涉及到他的健康權\n那這個部分經過這次事件我希望整個勞動部通盤的來檢討未來怎麼樣在你的政策甚至在勞基法裡面這種不利處分的情況就是我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正改善或他得到適當的懲處這個是我們應該要去做的事情我希望你們你們大概檢討完之後什麼時候可以提出一個你們比較完整的調整的報告\n我想其實因為這確實會需要一點時間因為我剛才說一個月好不好應該是一個月可以好你們一個月之後把你們這個修我們兩個月好不好對因為我們是兩個月就要很完整喔我們是真的有在檢討這件事情啦對因為從這個事件我想國人也希望這個勞動部要有一些作為出來好不好是好那兩個月要提出來最後一個我要問的是跟今天修法有關的\n這個霸凌案的調查我個人認為最重要的就是這些委員事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的這個調查事件第一版的調查官官相護所以呢沒有人需要懲處沒有人需要負責\n那社會輿論發酵之後 你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來那我在這次的修法裡面 職安法修法裡面呢我特別就針對職安法22條之3我認為外聘委員的比例\n至少要超過一半我就是要杜絕官官相互我也希望委員可以保有這樣的一個專業性跟中立性我更希望的是這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定 為什麼\n跟委員說明其實因為原本治安法的這個體力其實有很多相關的會是一個框架性跟原則性的訂定那我們的確也看到蠻多委員會關心比方說我們調查希望僱主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序那大家很關心說裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定其實我覺得我們是可以接受比方說到時候我們在\n在審查的時候 我們把相關的要求 也許用一個附帶決議的方式那大家把它給要求進去 放在執法裡面我為什麼堅持這一條呢 其他程序你們在執法可以訂定因為我認為一個調查報告 我自己過去也待過地方一個調查報告的關鍵 坦白講就在這些委員身上\n敢不敢深入調查要不要深入調查可不可以還原事實委員自為關鍵如果你委員的比例亂定一通然後官官相互其他的以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了所以這個其實是源頭我們在執法裡面我們其實也說明我們基本上會不會要定至少二分之一\n對 我要求一定是要二分之一因為這樣子你才能確保霸凌案的調查報告至關重要他關乎會不會成案委員就非常的重要好不好這一點我是非常堅持的就是一定要超過50%好 以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.409 --> 00:04.611\n謝謝主席我們有請部長請部長王媛好\n\n00:11.892 --> 00:26.243\n部長好部長這個長榮航空的空姐他因為身體不適然後沒有及早送醫最後導致他不幸過世大家其實是覺得這是一個讓人家非常悲傷的消息那這樣一個情況我覺得勞動部作為主管機關對於這一種違規大戶\n\n00:32.188 --> 00:51.959\n你們的這個勞檢還有你們的敏感度還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足然後罰款過低我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討我就讓各位看一下就是從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的他們違反相關的法規\n\n00:53.180 --> 01:19.271\n那有兩大類型就是一個是勞基法跟工會法另外一個是性平工作法那在這樣的一個情況底下你可以看到他的頻率是高的我們先來看這個性平工作法的部分性工法的部分他在去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件\n\n01:20.677 --> 01:44.110\n到今年這樣的一個情況還有育嬰留子停薪遭到不利處分請生理假遭到不利處分家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分他的頻率真的是太高了這麼高的一個情況底下你可以看到他罰的錢是多少每一次都是2萬塊都沒有改變\n\n01:46.304 --> 02:08.837\n這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講你認為這樣的一個裁罰金額對他來講是不是不痛不癢他完全不會發揮任何你的這個裁罰效果嗎所以他當然就是一再的忽視你整個性供法裡面所範定的內容\n\n02:10.031 --> 02:32.699\n跟文說明我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說那有一些裁罰的金額以他發生的頻次來說的話裁罰金額是太低的那這部分當然是因為這是這部分是地方政府罰的啦我們的法令是地方政府法那我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論不只是這樣子我們會跟台灣市勞檢處討論相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定\n\n02:36.800 --> 02:51.425\n第二頁事實上我們現在為什麼地方政府他其實是裁罰這樣的金額他也可以再往上裁罰但是我們比較現在的性供法跟勞基法其實同樣是長榮航空勞基法罰的比較重\n\n02:52.225 --> 03:10.542\n在新公法裡面就罰得比較輕為什麼因為我們的勞基法裡面他有多增加一個主管機關得一事業規模違反人數或違反情節加重其法環制法定法環的最高額二分之一\n\n03:11.543 --> 03:30.095\n這個就是在原來的母法裡面我覺得勞動基準法他給了一個比較明確的方向告訴主管機關你要是事業的規模違反的人數違規的情節加重罰則但是我們的性供法第38條完全沒有\n\n03:30.915 --> 03:52.733\n這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差底下一樣是執行的單位主管機關它其實就產生了不同的效果那這個部分我要求我們勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法如果針對這種一再違反事業規模又這麼大它員工人數這麼多事實上這次的這個裁罰連續都是兩萬塊我個人覺得是過輕了\n\n03:55.195 --> 04:11.384\n這個部分是不是有檢討的空間我們是不是可以在性供法裡面比照勞基法我們其實給出同樣的這樣的一個修法的重點然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候他們可以按照法的精神就是予以適當的裁法\n\n04:11.772 --> 04:40.195\n委員其實按照這條文來看很清楚其實當然地方主管機關不一定一定只能罰兩萬塊啊當然他當然可以提高啊他可以試他的嚴重的程度他的頻率的程度但是當我們的法例如果比照牢記法是這樣子寫的時候他在執法上面他就更敢就是去依照依法行政他就更沒有任何其他的壓力了\n\n04:40.555 --> 04:59.634\n所以我認為這個法的部分其實應該是可以去做一些調整的那另外一個我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府就將來在面對這樣的法的時候性供法按照現行還是2到30萬如果他是累犯本來就可以往上加但是未來的修法我覺得也很有必要\n\n05:00.054 --> 05:28.433\n就是讓他在執法上面有一致性大家不會各自去解讀這個是我的建議第二個是有關於這次我們看到這個生病空服員生病不敢請假的這件事喔這個的確我覺得是蠻誇張的因為這個基本的這個健康權這個就是應該是要被保障的那現在呢有人在網路上PO出來說有這個某間公司生病是明碼標價的\n\n05:30.395 --> 05:44.493\n就是平常生病扣1分週末連續假日扣2分跨年農曆新年生病扣3分我覺得這個是非常誇張的就是生病然後扣分\n\n05:46.398 --> 06:13.424\n這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查查清楚這個是有人放在網路上面的消息那如果這件事情屬實的話我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令這個是很嚴重的違反如果他暗暗地裡有這樣的一個制度在施行的話這已經是違反人性了這是完全不被允許的所以第一個\n\n06:14.284 --> 06:26.503\n我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司有人在網路上是這樣子寫這樣子暗指我覺得你們有調查權你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司第二個\n\n06:27.960 --> 06:47.125\n現在在性平法裡面呢他其實有就是規定就是不立處分的話他是有相關法條在講你不得做出不立處分但是反而我覺得就是我們現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方勞基法是三條其實九條\n\n06:48.445 --> 07:05.139\n有規定你一定要給病假但是給了之後就像這個誇張的公司我給你啊但是我給你扣分做不利處分我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定其實是沒有的\n\n07:06.248 --> 07:27.066\n跟文說明的確我們認為如果勞工明明就生病那其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班其實我們覺得不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況那所以我們這幾天其實我們做了一些內部的研議第一個是因為\n\n07:27.759 --> 07:49.330\n很多的這個我們看到也不只是航空業其實蠻多公司他會把這個請病假去跟像全勤獎金來做聯動那我們看到其實我們在包括一些法院的判決裡面判到全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的其中一部分所以我們接下來我們也會用比較制度性的要求那比方說\n\n07:50.715 --> 08:05.743\n勞工請病假不應該就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金好那像這個這個部分那我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益那至於但還有更多其他的這個不利的不利的\n\n08:06.663 --> 08:27.417\n處分的狀況因為不利處分的樣態其實是蠻多的那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那這有些部分我覺得我們是願意來做一些綜合的檢視我希望經由這次的事件勞工的他生病請假這個是天經地義這一定要保障因為這涉及到他的健康權\n\n08:28.317 --> 08:52.032\n那這個部分經過這次事件我希望整個勞動部通盤的來檢討未來怎麼樣在你的政策甚至在勞基法裡面這種不利處分的情況就是我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正改善或他得到適當的懲處這個是我們應該要去做的事情我希望你們你們大概檢討完之後什麼時候可以提出一個你們比較完整的調整的報告\n\n08:53.164 --> 09:17.029\n我想其實因為這確實會需要一點時間因為我剛才說一個月好不好應該是一個月可以好你們一個月之後把你們這個修我們兩個月好不好對因為我們是兩個月就要很完整喔我們是真的有在檢討這件事情啦對因為從這個事件我想國人也希望這個勞動部要有一些作為出來好不好是好那兩個月要提出來最後一個我要問的是跟今天修法有關的\n\n09:18.550 --> 09:33.030\n這個霸凌案的調查我個人認為最重要的就是這些委員事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的這個調查事件第一版的調查官官相護所以呢沒有人需要懲處沒有人需要負責\n\n09:34.292 --> 09:50.732\n那社會輿論發酵之後你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來那我在這次的修法裡面職安法修法裡面呢我特別就針對職安法22條之3我認為外聘委員的比例\n\n09:51.272 --> 10:12.208\n至少要超過一半我就是要杜絕官官相互我也希望委員可以保有這樣的一個專業性跟中立性我更希望的是這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定為什麼\n\n10:12.711 --> 10:38.318\n跟委員說明其實因為原本治安法的這個體力其實有很多相關的會是一個框架性跟原則性的訂定那我們的確也看到蠻多委員會關心比方說我們調查希望僱主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序那大家很關心說裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定其實我覺得我們是可以接受比方說到時候我們在\n\n10:39.238 --> 10:58.953\n在審查的時候我們把相關的要求也許用一個附帶決議的方式那大家把它給要求進去放在執法裡面我為什麼堅持這一條呢其他程序你們在執法可以訂定因為我認為一個調查報告我自己過去也待過地方一個調查報告的關鍵坦白講就在這些委員身上\n\n10:59.693 --> 11:21.483\n敢不敢深入調查要不要深入調查可不可以還原事實委員自為關鍵如果你委員的比例亂定一通然後官官相互其他的以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了所以這個其實是源頭我們在執法裡面我們其實也說明我們基本上會不會要定至少二分之一\n\n11:22.444 --> 11:35.741\n對我要求一定是要二分之一因為這樣子你才能確保霸凌案的調查報告至關重要他關乎會不會成案委員就非常的重要好不好這一點我是非常堅持的就是一定要超過50%好以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.409,"end":4.611,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請部長請部長王媛好"},{"start":11.892,"end":26.243,"text":"部長好部長這個長榮航空的空姐他因為身體不適然後沒有及早送醫最後導致他不幸過世大家其實是覺得這是一個讓人家非常悲傷的消息那這樣一個情況我覺得勞動部作為主管機關對於這一種違規大戶"},{"start":32.188,"end":51.959,"text":"你們的這個勞檢還有你們的敏感度還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足然後罰款過低我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討我就讓各位看一下就是從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的他們違反相關的法規"},{"start":53.18,"end":79.271,"text":"那有兩大類型就是一個是勞基法跟工會法另外一個是性平工作法那在這樣的一個情況底下你可以看到他的頻率是高的我們先來看這個性平工作法的部分性工法的部分他在去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件"},{"start":80.677,"end":104.11,"text":"到今年這樣的一個情況還有育嬰留子停薪遭到不利處分請生理假遭到不利處分家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分他的頻率真的是太高了這麼高的一個情況底下你可以看到他罰的錢是多少每一次都是2萬塊都沒有改變"},{"start":106.304,"end":128.837,"text":"這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講你認為這樣的一個裁罰金額對他來講是不是不痛不癢他完全不會發揮任何你的這個裁罰效果嗎所以他當然就是一再的忽視你整個性供法裡面所範定的內容"},{"start":130.031,"end":152.699,"text":"跟文說明我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說那有一些裁罰的金額以他發生的頻次來說的話裁罰金額是太低的那這部分當然是因為這是這部分是地方政府罰的啦我們的法令是地方政府法那我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論不只是這樣子我們會跟台灣市勞檢處討論相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定"},{"start":156.8,"end":171.425,"text":"第二頁事實上我們現在為什麼地方政府他其實是裁罰這樣的金額他也可以再往上裁罰但是我們比較現在的性供法跟勞基法其實同樣是長榮航空勞基法罰的比較重"},{"start":172.225,"end":190.542,"text":"在新公法裡面就罰得比較輕為什麼因為我們的勞基法裡面他有多增加一個主管機關得一事業規模違反人數或違反情節加重其法環制法定法環的最高額二分之一"},{"start":191.543,"end":210.095,"text":"這個就是在原來的母法裡面我覺得勞動基準法他給了一個比較明確的方向告訴主管機關你要是事業的規模違反的人數違規的情節加重罰則但是我們的性供法第38條完全沒有"},{"start":210.915,"end":232.733,"text":"這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差底下一樣是執行的單位主管機關它其實就產生了不同的效果那這個部分我要求我們勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法如果針對這種一再違反事業規模又這麼大 它員工人數這麼多事實上這次的這個裁罰連續都是兩萬塊 我個人覺得是過輕了"},{"start":235.195,"end":251.384,"text":"這個部分是不是有檢討的空間我們是不是可以在性供法裡面比照勞基法我們其實給出同樣的這樣的一個修法的重點然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候他們可以按照法的精神就是予以適當的裁法"},{"start":251.772,"end":280.195,"text":"委員其實按照這條文來看很清楚其實當然地方主管機關不一定一定只能罰兩萬塊啊當然他當然可以提高啊他可以試他的嚴重的程度他的頻率的程度但是當我們的法例如果比照牢記法是這樣子寫的時候他在執法上面他就更敢就是去依照依法行政他就更沒有任何其他的壓力了"},{"start":280.555,"end":299.634,"text":"所以我認為這個法的部分其實應該是可以去做一些調整的那另外一個我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府就將來在面對這樣的法的時候性供法按照現行還是2到30萬如果他是累犯本來就可以往上加但是未來的修法我覺得也很有必要"},{"start":300.054,"end":328.433,"text":"就是讓他在執法上面有一致性大家不會各自去解讀這個是我的建議第二個是有關於這次我們看到這個生病空服員生病不敢請假的這件事喔這個的確我覺得是蠻誇張的因為這個基本的這個健康權這個就是應該是要被保障的那現在呢有人在網路上PO出來說有這個某間公司生病是明碼標價的"},{"start":330.395,"end":344.493,"text":"就是平常生病扣1分週末連續假日扣2分跨年農曆新年生病扣3分我覺得這個是非常誇張的就是生病然後扣分"},{"start":346.398,"end":373.424,"text":"這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查查清楚這個是有人放在網路上面的消息那如果這件事情屬實的話我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令這個是很嚴重的違反如果他暗暗地裡有這樣的一個制度在施行的話這已經是違反人性了這是完全不被允許的所以第一個"},{"start":374.284,"end":386.503,"text":"我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司有人在網路上是這樣子寫這樣子暗指我覺得你們有調查權你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司第二個"},{"start":387.96,"end":407.125,"text":"現在在性平法裡面呢他其實有就是規定就是不立處分的話他是有相關法條在講你不得做出不立處分但是反而我覺得就是我們現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方勞基法是三條其實九條"},{"start":408.445,"end":425.139,"text":"有規定你一定要給病假但是給了之後就像這個誇張的公司我給你啊但是我給你扣分做不利處分我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定其實是沒有的"},{"start":426.248,"end":447.066,"text":"跟文說明的確我們認為如果勞工明明就生病那其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班其實我們覺得不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況那所以我們這幾天其實我們做了一些內部的研議第一個是因為"},{"start":447.759,"end":469.33,"text":"很多的這個我們看到也不只是航空業其實蠻多公司他會把這個請病假去跟像全勤獎金來做聯動那我們看到其實我們在包括一些法院的判決裡面判到全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的其中一部分所以我們接下來我們也會用比較制度性的要求那比方說"},{"start":470.715,"end":485.743,"text":"勞工請病假不應該就被沒收整個月的全勤獎金好那像這個這個部分那我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益那至於但還有更多其他的這個不利的不利的"},{"start":486.663,"end":507.417,"text":"處分的狀況因為不利處分的樣態其實是蠻多的那請病假的樣態其實也蠻多的那這有些部分我覺得我們是願意來做一些綜合的檢視我希望經由這次的事件勞工的他生病請假這個是天經地義這一定要保障因為這涉及到他的健康權"},{"start":508.317,"end":532.032,"text":"那這個部分經過這次事件我希望整個勞動部通盤的來檢討未來怎麼樣在你的政策甚至在勞基法裡面這種不利處分的情況就是我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正改善或他得到適當的懲處這個是我們應該要去做的事情我希望你們你們大概檢討完之後什麼時候可以提出一個你們比較完整的調整的報告"},{"start":533.164,"end":557.029,"text":"我想其實因為這確實會需要一點時間因為我剛才說一個月好不好應該是一個月可以好你們一個月之後把你們這個修我們兩個月好不好對因為我們是兩個月就要很完整喔我們是真的有在檢討這件事情啦對因為從這個事件我想國人也希望這個勞動部要有一些作為出來好不好是好那兩個月要提出來最後一個我要問的是跟今天修法有關的"},{"start":558.55,"end":573.03,"text":"這個霸凌案的調查我個人認為最重要的就是這些委員事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的這個調查事件第一版的調查官官相護所以呢沒有人需要懲處沒有人需要負責"},{"start":574.292,"end":590.732,"text":"那社會輿論發酵之後 你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來那我在這次的修法裡面 職安法修法裡面呢我特別就針對職安法22條之3我認為外聘委員的比例"},{"start":591.272,"end":612.208,"text":"至少要超過一半我就是要杜絕官官相互我也希望委員可以保有這樣的一個專業性跟中立性我更希望的是這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定 為什麼"},{"start":612.711,"end":638.318,"text":"跟委員說明其實因為原本治安法的這個體力其實有很多相關的會是一個框架性跟原則性的訂定那我們的確也看到蠻多委員會關心比方說我們調查希望僱主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序那大家很關心說裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定其實我覺得我們是可以接受比方說到時候我們在"},{"start":639.238,"end":658.953,"text":"在審查的時候 我們把相關的要求 也許用一個附帶決議的方式那大家把它給要求進去 放在執法裡面我為什麼堅持這一條呢 其他程序你們在執法可以訂定因為我認為一個調查報告 我自己過去也待過地方一個調查報告的關鍵 坦白講就在這些委員身上"},{"start":659.693,"end":681.483,"text":"敢不敢深入調查要不要深入調查可不可以還原事實委員自為關鍵如果你委員的比例亂定一通然後官官相互其他的以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了所以這個其實是源頭我們在執法裡面我們其實也說明我們基本上會不會要定至少二分之一"},{"start":682.444,"end":695.741,"text":"對 我要求一定是要二分之一因為這樣子你才能確保霸凌案的調查報告至關重要他關乎會不會成案委員就非常的重要好不好這一點我是非常堅持的就是一定要超過50%好 以上謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時55分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，長榮航空的空姐，他因為身體不適，然後沒有及早送醫，最後導致他不幸過世，大家覺得這是一個讓人非常悲傷的消息。這樣一個情況，我覺得勞動部作為主管機關，對於這種違規大戶，你們的勞檢還有你們的敏感度，還有檢視我們現在的法令是不是還有所不足，然後罰款過低，我覺得這個通通都應該拿出來檢討。","我就讓各位看一下，從去年到今年長榮航空這邊列出來的，他們違反相關的法規有兩大類型，一個是勞基法跟工會法，另外一個是性平工作法。那在這樣的一個情況底下，你可以看到它的頻率是高的。我們先來看性平工作法的部分，去年你看到育兒減少工時遭不利處分的就有好幾件，到今年這樣的一個情況，還有育嬰留職停薪遭到不利處分、請生理假遭到不利處分、家庭照顧假也遭到不利處分，它的頻率真的是太高了，這麼高的一個情況底下，你可以看到它罰的錢是多少？每一次都是2萬塊，都沒有改變，這樣的一個情況對照一個營業額每年高達上百億的企業來講，你認為這樣的裁罰金額，對它來講是不是不痛不癢？它完全不會發揮任何你的裁罰效果嘛！所以它當然就是一再地忽視你整個性工法裡面所判定的內容啊！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我的確覺得以這個裁罰的紀錄來說，有一些裁罰的金額，以它發生的頻次來說的話，裁罰金額是太低的，這部分當然是地方政府罰的啦！"],["王委員育敏：我們的法令其實……"],["洪部長申翰：是地方政府罰。"],["王委員育敏：我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：我認為我們會來跟地方政府討論……"],["王委員育敏：不只是這樣子……"],["洪部長申翰：我們會跟桃園市勞檢處討論，相關的裁罰應該要更慎重的來決定它的金額。"],["王委員育敏：我們來看第2頁，事實上現在為什麼地方政府是裁罰這樣的金額？它也可以再往上裁罰，但是我們比較現在的性工法跟勞基法，其實同樣是長榮航空，勞基法罰得比較重，在性工法裡面就罰得比較輕，為什麼？因為我們的勞基法裡面，它有多增加一個主管機關得依事業規模、違反人數或違反情節加重其罰鍰至法定罰鍰的最高額二分之一，這個就是在原來的母法裡面，我覺得勞動基準法它給了一個比較明確的方向，告訴主管機關，你要視事業的規模、違反的人數、違規的情節加重罰則，但是我們的性工法第三十八條完全沒有，這個就是我看到這兩個法令的落差，一樣是執行單位的主管機關，它其實就產生了不同的效果。","這個部分我要求勞動部應該回過頭來看我們的性工法，如果針對這種一再違反，事業規模又這麼大，它員工人數這麼多，事實上這幾次的裁罰，連續都是2萬塊，我個人覺得是過輕了，這個部分是不是有檢討的空間？我們是不是可以在性工法裡面比照勞基法，我們其實給出同樣的一個修法重點，然後讓未來地方主管機關在執行的時候，他們可以按照法的精神，就是予以適當的裁罰。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，其實按照這條文來看很清楚，當然地方主管機關不一定只能罰2萬塊。"],["王委員育敏：當然。"],["洪部長申翰：它當然可以提高啊！它可以視它嚴重的程度、頻率的程度、它的態度、它的樣態來往上罰。"],["王委員育敏：但是當我們的法令如果比照勞基法是這樣子寫的時候，在執法上面它就更敢去依法行政，它就更沒有任何其他的壓力了，所以我認為這個法的部分，其實應該是可以去做一些調整的。另外，我也希望勞動部去輔導地方政府，將來在面對這樣的法的時候，性工法按照現行還是2到30萬，如果它是累犯，本來就可以往上加，但是未來的修法，我覺得也很有必要，就是讓它在執法上面有一致性，大家不會各自去解讀，這個是我的建議。","第二個是有關於這次我們看到空服員生病不敢請假的這件事，這個的確我覺得是滿誇張的，因為基本的健康權應該是要被保障的。那現在有人在網路上po出來說，有某間公司生病是明碼標價的，就是平常生病扣1分，週末連續假日扣2分，跨年農曆新年生病扣3分，我覺得這個是非常誇張的，就是生病然後扣分。這件事情我要求勞動部應該要去查清楚，這個是有人放在網路上面的消息，如果這件事情屬實的話，我覺得這一間公司是完完全全違反我們的相關法令，這個是很嚴重的違反，如果他暗地裡有這樣一個制度在施行的話，這已經是違反人性了，這是完全不被允許的！","所以第一個，我要求這件事情要查清楚到底是哪家公司？有人在網路上這樣子寫、這樣子暗指，我覺得你們有調查權，你們就好好去把它查出來到底是哪一家公司。第二個，現在在性平法裡面其實有規定、有相關法條在講不得作出不利處分，但是我覺得現在性平法跟勞基法互相有需要去調整的地方，勞基法第四十三條、第七十九條有規定一定要給病假，但是給了之後就像這一個誇張的公司，我給你呀，但是我給你扣分、做不利處分！我們現行的法令在這個部分並沒有再更進一步的規定，其實是沒有的！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，如果勞工明明就生病，其實該請病假休息卻硬撐著上班，我們覺得這不應該是被制度鼓勵的狀況，所以我們這幾天也做了一些內部研議。第一個，我們看到也不只是航空業，其實滿多公司會把請病假去跟全勤獎金……"],["王委員育敏：跟考績做連動。"],["洪部長申翰：跟全勤獎金做連動，在一些法院的判決裡面也提到，全勤獎金其實應該是勞工工資的一部分，所以我們接下來也會用比較制度性的要求，比方說勞工請病假不應該被沒收整個月的全勤獎金，像這個部分我們會用制度性的要求來保障勞工的權益；至於還有更多其他不利處分的狀況，因為不利處分的樣態其實滿多的，請病假的樣態其實也滿多的，有些部分我們願意來做綜合檢視。"],["王委員育敏：我希望經由這次事件，勞工生病請假是天經地義，這一定要保障，因為這涉及到他的健康權，這個部分經過這次事件，我希望整個勞動部通盤來檢討，未來怎麼樣在你的政策，甚至在勞基法裡面針對這種不利處分的情況，我們可以去要求這些不當的企業必須修正、改善，或他得到適當的懲處，這個是我們應該要去做的事情。你們檢討完之後，大概什麼時候可以提出一個比較完整的調整報告？"],["洪部長申翰：這確實會需要一點時間，因為我剛剛說……"],["王委員育敏：一個月好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：一個月應該可以……可以長一點嗎？"],["王委員育敏：好，你們一個月之後把你們這個……"],["洪部長申翰：兩個月好不好？因為我們是針對……"],["王委員育敏：兩個月就要很完整喔！"],["洪部長申翰：我們是真的有在檢討這件事情。"],["王委員育敏：對，從這個事件我想國人也希望勞動部要有一些作為出來，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：那兩個月要提出來。","最後一個，我要問的是跟今天修法有關的，針對霸凌案的調查，我個人認為最重要的就是這一些委員，事實上勞動部自己也經歷過霸凌案的調查事件，第一版的調查官官相護，所以沒有人需要懲處、沒有人需要負責，在社會輿論發酵之後，你再重啟調查才真正把這個問題揪出來。在這一次的職安法修法裡面，我就特別針對職安法第二十二條之三，我認為外聘委員的比例至少要超過一半，我就是要杜絕官官相護，我也希望委員可以保有專業性跟中立性，我更希望的是，這個調查報告不是敷衍的報告而是能還原真相的報告！但是很遺憾看到你們的修法意見，你們其實不贊成在母法裡面訂定，為什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，因為原本職安法的體例其實有很多是框架性跟原則性的訂定，我們的確也看到滿多委員會關心，比方說希望雇主能夠啟動調查跟處理的程序，大家很關心裡面有些程序是不是有可能在母法訂定，其實我覺得我們可以接受的是，比方說到時候我們在審查的時候，把相關要求也許用一個附帶決議的方式，放在子法裡面。"],["王委員育敏：我為什麼堅持這一條？其他程序你們在子法可以訂定，我自己過去也待過地方，坦白講，我認為一個調查報告的關鍵就在這些委員身上，敢不敢深入調查、要不要深入調查、可不可以還原事實，委員至為關鍵！如果委員的比例亂訂一通、然後官官相護，其他以下的程序坦白講通通都無關痛癢了，所以這個其實是源頭。"],["洪部長申翰：我們在子法裡面也說明，基本上就是訂定至少要二分之一。"],["王委員育敏：對，我要求一定要二分之一。"],["洪部長申翰：對，要二分之一。"],["王委員育敏：因為這樣子你才能確保……霸凌案的調查報告至關重要，它關乎會不會成案，委員就非常的重要，好不好？這一點我是非常堅持的，就是一定要超過50%。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}