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\"這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 204.071, \"end\": 204.171, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 204.171, \"end\": 204.271, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 204.271, \"end\": 204.371, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 204.371, \"end\": 204.532, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 204.532, \"end\": 204.632, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 204.632, \"end\": 204.712, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 204.712, \"end\": 204.972, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"求\", \"start\": 204.972, \"end\": 205.573, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 205.573, \"end\": 206.614, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 206.614, \"end\": 206.774, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 206.774, \"end\": 206.894, \"score\": 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224.111, \"end\": 224.431, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 224.431, \"end\": 224.531, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 224.531, \"end\": 224.791, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 224.791, \"end\": 224.891, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 224.891, \"end\": 224.971, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 224.971, \"end\": 225.332, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 225.332, \"end\": 225.472, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"高\", \"start\": 225.472, \"end\": 225.612, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 225.612, \"end\": 225.712, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 225.712, \"end\": 225.912, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 225.912, \"end\": 226.032, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 226.032, \"end\": 226.052, \"score\": 0.434}]}, {\"start\": 226.853, \"end\": 240.862, \"text\": \"你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 226.853, \"end\": 227.574, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 227.574, \"end\": 227.814, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 227.814, \"end\": 227.934, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 227.934, \"end\": 228.574, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"航\", \"start\": 228.574, \"end\": 228.754, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"空\", \"start\": 228.754, \"end\": 229.034, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 229.034, \"end\": 229.175, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 229.175, \"end\": 229.595, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 229.595, \"end\": 229.775, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 229.775, \"end\": 229.975, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 229.975, \"end\": 230.535, 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\"不\", \"start\": 233.057, \"end\": 233.277, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"怕\", \"start\": 233.277, \"end\": 233.497, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 233.497, \"end\": 233.637, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 233.637, \"end\": 234.058, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"罰\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 234.058, \"end\": 234.198, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"痛\", \"start\": 234.198, \"end\": 234.378, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 234.378, \"end\": 234.918, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 234.918, \"end\": 235.058, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 235.058, \"end\": 235.979, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"依\", \"start\": 235.979, \"end\": 236.259, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"舊\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 236.259, \"end\": 236.739, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 236.739, \"end\": 236.879, \"score\": 0.858}, 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652.993, \"end\": 653.093, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 653.093, \"end\": 653.293, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 653.293, \"end\": 653.394, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 653.394, \"end\": 653.674, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"點\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 653.674, \"end\": 653.894, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 653.894, \"end\": 653.914, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,354 --> 00:00:03,822\n主席好我們請洪部長\n\n2\n00:00:15,296 --> 00:00:32,712\n還是有關長榮空勤人員報病出勤後就醫死亡的案件昨天我看到部長對外表示是長榮航空違法的紀錄不少應該要好好跟工會協商誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求\n\n3\n00:00:33,593 --> 00:00:51,258\n也說不會只聽長榮的片面之詞那書面報告進一步指出四年來這個航空業勞檢這個勞動檢查238場有50場違反規定的行刑那違法率大概是兩成可是我們看到裁罰了725萬元裡面長榮就佔了352萬元那佔比約這個七成部長\n\n4\n00:01:00,101 --> 00:01:28,729\n雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查這個公司接貨員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定那但是呢我們本席質疑的是這位空服員已經不舒服了為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己去出勤我認為公司這個勤務安排與這個請假制度才是關鍵我覺得是應該要從制度面來這個來做檢討那請問部長這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍\n\n5\n00:01:30,031 --> 00:01:49,946\n我想整個這個這位組員那他在生前所經歷的狀況我想當然都會是在調查的範圍裡面那我們也現在希望能夠對於一些當不管是downtown的組員或者是相關的戀愛相關人進行訪談\n\n6\n00:01:51,243 --> 00:02:07,888\n因為我看到他們前員工在這個社群網路上的指控該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假包含特休只要超過三天隔月即會喪失選班選假的資格更嚴重的是\n\n7\n00:02:08,468 --> 00:02:37,001\n如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形這個形同變相的懲罰我在強調這點就是說我們希望說事情發生了當然各個方面的這個措施我們都要去檢討但是我看到這個整個制度面確實是應該有我們有應該有要列入這個調查的一個重點\n\n8\n00:02:38,081 --> 00:03:05,585\n部長認為呢我想制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行那當然我說制度也分幾個部分一個部分是公司內部的制度那另外一個也包括如果他公司的規定不合理呢如果剛剛在我們講的是這種這種方式的話公司內部不合理有幾個部分第一個當然從從行政的角度當然要看他我們這樣講啦如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法\n\n9\n00:03:07,717 --> 00:03:21,729\n有沒有違反勞基法這個還要再我們要再來做確認但是我的意思說剛剛跟我們報告如果公司內部不合理有幾個有幾個條件第一個就是有沒有違反法規第二個這也是為什麼我們昨天強調其實有蠻多\n\n10\n00:03:24,071 --> 00:03:46,052\n這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一\n\n11\n00:03:46,853 --> 00:04:00,862\n你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部\n\n12\n00:04:04,722 --> 00:04:27,516\n我想我是不會這樣認定啦所以部長你要硬起來好不好這是勞工的權益的確需要跨部會大家一起來督促來要求航空業做出制度性的改善因為這個制度性過勞的狀況我希望這個我們部裡面應該要檢討一下是不是有需要提修法\n\n13\n00:04:29,737 --> 00:04:51,105\n結論這種情形我這樣看就是說不會發生在空服員身上希望勞動部透過這次的不幸把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補那禁止企業透過排班績效或身兼制度霸凌依法請假的員工我想這個也應該把它做一個全面性的一個檢討部長可以嗎\n\n14\n00:04:52,270 --> 00:05:07,663\n就是我的確是認為這個勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息那這個其實從職場健康的角度來說的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵對那我希望把這個制度大家做一個檢討啦好不好因為這不是我認為這不會只在長榮\n\n15\n00:05:09,685 --> 00:05:33,273\n其他企業應該也會有這種情形那接下來就有關巨大機械招美國海關發出這個戰扣令的重大案件台灣製造業人心惶惶那這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的一個風險那也顯示台灣勞工人權治理國際趨勢有落差那上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討\n\n16\n00:05:34,253 --> 00:05:57,666\n那預告明年會成立這個延攬中心進行國與國的對接強化政府在職聘制度的角色對嗎是那為了回應人權及貿易的新規則部長是否同意盡快修復這個修訂這個就業服務法及相關指引明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費全面實施這個勞工的這個\n\n17\n00:06:02,128 --> 00:06:30,565\nILO的這個倡議我想我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來來合作一個這個輔導的機制那但是法規的部分我們也會同步的來檢視那看法規調整的需求這部分我們會同步來檢視但的確因為台灣的企業的規模樣態比較多所以有可能我們的企業也需要一定時也需要一點時間來去做\n\n18\n00:06:32,706 --> 00:07:00,336\n來怎麼樣去更趨近國際要求的調適因為我看到我們產業都這個這產業都與巨大的這個狀況差不多啦有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的這個五項高風險指標你如跨境招募公司管理這個宿舍品質這些面向勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助這個整體製造業的這個這個改善我們會我們會提出指引那這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠\n\n19\n00:07:01,316 --> 00:07:29,211\n盡量去對準這個國際上面的規範跟要求請部長這邊我們部裡面快一點我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公佈實施了五年那國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新那人權團體也一再催生這個更新版那勞動部是否這個是跨部會小組的一個重要成員那部長這個政府何時會提出新的這個更新版\n\n20\n00:07:30,191 --> 00:07:58,885\n跟委員說沒有企業與人權的這個這部分是經濟部在我知道你們是跨部會的成員嘛但是對但是我剛才說我們也不只是在那個企業與人權的那個裡面去處理我們其實我們一定是要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的對你跟行政院這邊跟經濟部來這邊來來反映嘛看能不能速度加快因為歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權禁止調查\n\n21\n00:07:59,645 --> 00:08:15,020\n那這個部分如果我們要應該要盡快提出供應鏈人權保障及企業禁止調查的相關立法那台灣企業要做跟國際做生意啦我希望我們這些這部分要加快腳步好不好\n\n22\n00:08:15,820 --> 00:08:42,097\n歐盟的CSDD現在大概延一年到2028可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高所以也不但不會因為歐盟延一年我們就放鬆不會所以我們會很積極的來跟產業界來做相關的輔導那同時就像剛才說的關於法規是否要調整的這個檢視那我們一併也在做這個法規的檢視最後一個\n\n23\n00:08:42,978 --> 00:09:06,013\n那回到這個職安法職場霸凌的修法問題那這次修法聚焦在公安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點那請問部長公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴那勞工如果不服公司的調查是否可以向這個地方勞動機關提起再申訴\n\n24\n00:09:08,005 --> 00:09:36,042\n答案也是不行嘛對不對跟委員說沒有我們其實現在這次治安法設計裡面其實第一個它可以向企業來申請再次的申付啦企業內部是有那如果這個勞工覺得在僱主在處理調查處理的過程裡面在程序上面是有違反法規的話它其實是可以跟我們的主管機關或者是我們的勞檢單位依照39條就是治安法39條來要求外部的檢查\n\n25\n00:09:36,642 --> 00:09:56,372\n來去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規對這個要請外部委員這個是老檢依照39條是請老檢外部的檢查來去做程序性的檢視如果有違反法規的話他必須改善或者是甚至有可能要重啟調查\n\n26\n00:09:57,532 --> 00:10:08,386\n對那這些調查的人是這個委員是外聘嘛對不對如果要重啟調查當然還是要符合一定的這個我們外聘委員的要求啊對因為我曾經發現這個\n\n27\n00:10:11,573 --> 00:10:29,215\n我們有外聘委員他有時候有些他有其他的這個這個兼職他也是幫我們這個資方來打官司勞工權益來打官司的這個專門聘請的律師也曾經擔任這個外聘委員\n\n28\n00:10:30,451 --> 00:10:53,914\n像這個東西的話他可以這樣做嗎跟文說明我們接下來對於外聘委員的包括人數比例包括他的要做利益迴避他的中立性我們都會在附屬法規裡面然後把它給定清楚好那你們部裡面既然知道了我希望把這些都把它列入重點那也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點是謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2354\t3822\t主席好 我們請洪部長\n15296\t32712\t還是有關長榮空勤人員報病出勤後就醫死亡的案件昨天我看到部長對外表示是長榮航空違法的紀錄不少應該要好好跟工會協商誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求\n33593\t51258\t也說不會只聽長榮的片面之詞那書面報告進一步指出四年來這個航空業勞檢這個勞動檢查238場有50場違反規定的行刑那違法率大概是兩成可是我們看到裁罰了725萬元裡面長榮就佔了352萬元那佔比約這個七成 部長\n60101\t88729\t雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查這個公司接貨員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定那但是呢我們本席質疑的是這位空服員已經不舒服了為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己去出勤我認為公司這個勤務安排與這個請假制度才是關鍵我覺得是應該要從制度面來這個來做檢討那請問部長這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍\n90031\t109946\t我想整個這個這位組員那他在生前所經歷的狀況我想當然都會是在調查的範圍裡面那我們也現在希望能夠對於一些當不管是downtown的組員或者是相關的戀愛相關人進行訪談\n111243\t127888\t因為我看到他們前員工在這個社群網路上的指控該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假包含特休只要超過三天隔月即會喪失選班選假的資格更嚴重的是\n128468\t157001\t如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形這個形同變相的懲罰我在強調這點就是說我們希望說事情發生了當然各個方面的這個措施我們都要去檢討但是我看到這個整個制度面確實是應該有我們有應該有要列入這個調查的一個重點\n158081\t185585\t部長認為呢我想制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行那當然我說制度也分幾個部分一個部分是公司內部的制度那另外一個也包括如果他公司的規定不合理呢如果剛剛在我們講的是這種這種方式的話公司內部不合理有幾個部分第一個當然從從行政的角度當然要看他我們這樣講啦如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法\n187717\t201729\t有沒有違反勞基法這個還要再我們要再來做確認但是我的意思說剛剛跟我們報告如果公司內部不合理有幾個有幾個條件第一個就是有沒有違反法規第二個這也是為什麼我們昨天強調其實有蠻多\n204071\t226052\t這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一\n226853\t240862\t你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部\n244722\t267516\t我想我是不會這樣認定啦所以部長你要硬起來好不好這是勞工的權益的確需要跨部會大家一起來督促來要求航空業做出制度性的改善因為這個制度性過勞的狀況我希望這個我們部裡面應該要檢討一下是不是有需要提修法\n269737\t291105\t結論這種情形我這樣看就是說不會發生在空服員身上希望勞動部透過這次的不幸把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補那禁止企業透過排班績效或身兼制度霸凌依法請假的員工我想這個也應該把它做一個全面性的一個檢討部長可以嗎\n292270\t307663\t就是我的確是認為這個勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息那這個其實從職場健康的角度來說的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵對 那我希望把這個制度大家做一個檢討啦 好不好因為這不是 我認為這不會只在長榮\n309685\t333273\t其他企業應該也會有這種情形那接下來就有關巨大機械招美國海關發出這個戰扣令的重大案件台灣製造業人心惶惶那這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的一個風險那也顯示台灣勞工人權治理國際趨勢有落差那上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討\n334253\t357666\t那預告明年會成立這個延攬中心進行國與國的對接強化政府在職聘制度的角色對嗎是那為了回應人權及貿易的新規則部長是否同意盡快修復這個修訂這個就業服務法及相關指引明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費全面實施這個勞工的這個\n362128\t390565\tILO的這個倡議我想我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來來合作一個這個輔導的機制那但是法規的部分我們也會同步的來檢視那看法規調整的需求這部分我們會同步來檢視但的確因為台灣的企業的規模樣態比較多所以有可能我們的企業也需要一定時也需要一點時間來去做\n392706\t420336\t來怎麼樣去更趨近國際要求的調適因為我看到我們產業都這個這產業都與巨大的這個狀況差不多啦有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的這個五項高風險指標你如跨境招募公司管理這個宿舍品質這些面向勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助這個整體製造業的這個這個改善我們會我們會提出指引那這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠\n421316\t449211\t盡量去對準這個國際上面的規範跟要求請部長這邊 我們部裡面快一點我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公佈實施了五年那國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新那人權團體也一再催生這個更新版那勞動部是否這個是跨部會小組的一個重要成員那部長這個政府何時會提出新的這個更新版\n450191\t478885\t跟委員說沒有 企業與人權的這個這部分是經濟部在我知道你們是跨部會的成員嘛但是 對 但是我剛才說我們也不只是在那個企業與人權的那個裡面去處理我們其實我們一定是要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的對 你跟行政院這邊 跟經濟部來這邊來來反映嘛 看能不能速度加快因為歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權禁止調查\n479645\t495020\t那這個部分如果我們要應該要盡快提出供應鏈人權保障及企業禁止調查的相關立法那台灣企業要做跟國際做生意啦我希望我們這些這部分要加快腳步好不好\n495820\t522097\t歐盟的CSDD現在大概延一年到2028可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高所以也不但不會因為歐盟延一年我們就放鬆 不會所以我們會很積極的來跟產業界來做相關的輔導那同時就像剛才說的關於法規是否要調整的這個檢視那我們一併也在做這個法規的檢視最後一個\n522978\t546013\t那回到這個職安法職場霸凌的修法問題那這次修法聚焦在公安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點那請問部長 公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴那勞工如果不服公司的調查是否可以向這個地方勞動機關提起再申訴\n548005\t576042\t答案也是不行嘛對不對 跟委員說沒有我們其實現在這次治安法設計裡面其實第一個它可以向企業來申請再次的申付啦企業內部是有那如果這個勞工覺得在僱主在處理調查處理的過程裡面在程序上面是有違反法規的話它其實是可以跟我們的主管機關或者是我們的勞檢單位依照39條就是治安法39條來要求外部的檢查\n576642\t596372\t來去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規對 這個要請外部委員 這個是老檢依照39條是請老檢外部的檢查來去做程序性的檢視如果有違反法規的話 他必須改善或者是甚至有可能要重啟調查\n597532\t608386\t對 那這些調查的人是 這個委員是外聘嘛 對不對如果要重啟調查當然還是要符合一定的這個我們外聘委員的要求啊對 因為我曾經發現這個\n611573\t629215\t我們有外聘委員他有時候有些他有其他的這個這個兼職他也是幫我們這個資方來打官司勞工權益來打官司的這個專門聘請的律師也曾經擔任這個外聘委員\n630451\t653914\t像這個東西的話他可以這樣做嗎跟文說明我們接下來對於外聘委員的包括人數比例包括他的要做利益迴避他的中立性我們都會在附屬法規裡面然後把它給定清楚好那你們部裡面既然知道了我希望把這些都把它列入重點那也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點是謝謝部長\n","txt":"主席好 我們請洪部長\n還是有關長榮空勤人員報病出勤後就醫死亡的案件昨天我看到部長對外表示是長榮航空違法的紀錄不少應該要好好跟工會協商誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求\n也說不會只聽長榮的片面之詞那書面報告進一步指出四年來這個航空業勞檢這個勞動檢查238場有50場違反規定的行刑那違法率大概是兩成可是我們看到裁罰了725萬元裡面長榮就佔了352萬元那佔比約這個七成 部長\n雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查這個公司接貨員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定那但是呢我們本席質疑的是這位空服員已經不舒服了為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己去出勤我認為公司這個勤務安排與這個請假制度才是關鍵我覺得是應該要從制度面來這個來做檢討那請問部長這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍\n我想整個這個這位組員那他在生前所經歷的狀況我想當然都會是在調查的範圍裡面那我們也現在希望能夠對於一些當不管是downtown的組員或者是相關的戀愛相關人進行訪談\n因為我看到他們前員工在這個社群網路上的指控該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假包含特休只要超過三天隔月即會喪失選班選假的資格更嚴重的是\n如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形這個形同變相的懲罰我在強調這點就是說我們希望說事情發生了當然各個方面的這個措施我們都要去檢討但是我看到這個整個制度面確實是應該有我們有應該有要列入這個調查的一個重點\n部長認為呢我想制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行那當然我說制度也分幾個部分一個部分是公司內部的制度那另外一個也包括如果他公司的規定不合理呢如果剛剛在我們講的是這種這種方式的話公司內部不合理有幾個部分第一個當然從從行政的角度當然要看他我們這樣講啦如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法\n有沒有違反勞基法這個還要再我們要再來做確認但是我的意思說剛剛跟我們報告如果公司內部不合理有幾個有幾個條件第一個就是有沒有違反法規第二個這也是為什麼我們昨天強調其實有蠻多\n這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一\n你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部\n我想我是不會這樣認定啦所以部長你要硬起來好不好這是勞工的權益的確需要跨部會大家一起來督促來要求航空業做出制度性的改善因為這個制度性過勞的狀況我希望這個我們部裡面應該要檢討一下是不是有需要提修法\n結論這種情形我這樣看就是說不會發生在空服員身上希望勞動部透過這次的不幸把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補那禁止企業透過排班績效或身兼制度霸凌依法請假的員工我想這個也應該把它做一個全面性的一個檢討部長可以嗎\n就是我的確是認為這個勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息那這個其實從職場健康的角度來說的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵對 那我希望把這個制度大家做一個檢討啦 好不好因為這不是 我認為這不會只在長榮\n其他企業應該也會有這種情形那接下來就有關巨大機械招美國海關發出這個戰扣令的重大案件台灣製造業人心惶惶那這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的一個風險那也顯示台灣勞工人權治理國際趨勢有落差那上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討\n那預告明年會成立這個延攬中心進行國與國的對接強化政府在職聘制度的角色對嗎是那為了回應人權及貿易的新規則部長是否同意盡快修復這個修訂這個就業服務法及相關指引明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費全面實施這個勞工的這個\nILO的這個倡議我想我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來來合作一個這個輔導的機制那但是法規的部分我們也會同步的來檢視那看法規調整的需求這部分我們會同步來檢視但的確因為台灣的企業的規模樣態比較多所以有可能我們的企業也需要一定時也需要一點時間來去做\n來怎麼樣去更趨近國際要求的調適因為我看到我們產業都這個這產業都與巨大的這個狀況差不多啦有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的這個五項高風險指標你如跨境招募公司管理這個宿舍品質這些面向勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助這個整體製造業的這個這個改善我們會我們會提出指引那這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠\n盡量去對準這個國際上面的規範跟要求請部長這邊 我們部裡面快一點我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公佈實施了五年那國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新那人權團體也一再催生這個更新版那勞動部是否這個是跨部會小組的一個重要成員那部長這個政府何時會提出新的這個更新版\n跟委員說沒有 企業與人權的這個這部分是經濟部在我知道你們是跨部會的成員嘛但是 對 但是我剛才說我們也不只是在那個企業與人權的那個裡面去處理我們其實我們一定是要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的對 你跟行政院這邊 跟經濟部來這邊來來反映嘛 看能不能速度加快因為歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權禁止調查\n那這個部分如果我們要應該要盡快提出供應鏈人權保障及企業禁止調查的相關立法那台灣企業要做跟國際做生意啦我希望我們這些這部分要加快腳步好不好\n歐盟的CSDD現在大概延一年到2028可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高所以也不但不會因為歐盟延一年我們就放鬆 不會所以我們會很積極的來跟產業界來做相關的輔導那同時就像剛才說的關於法規是否要調整的這個檢視那我們一併也在做這個法規的檢視最後一個\n那回到這個職安法職場霸凌的修法問題那這次修法聚焦在公安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點那請問部長 公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴那勞工如果不服公司的調查是否可以向這個地方勞動機關提起再申訴\n答案也是不行嘛對不對 跟委員說沒有我們其實現在這次治安法設計裡面其實第一個它可以向企業來申請再次的申付啦企業內部是有那如果這個勞工覺得在僱主在處理調查處理的過程裡面在程序上面是有違反法規的話它其實是可以跟我們的主管機關或者是我們的勞檢單位依照39條就是治安法39條來要求外部的檢查\n來去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規對 這個要請外部委員 這個是老檢依照39條是請老檢外部的檢查來去做程序性的檢視如果有違反法規的話 他必須改善或者是甚至有可能要重啟調查\n對 那這些調查的人是 這個委員是外聘嘛 對不對如果要重啟調查當然還是要符合一定的這個我們外聘委員的要求啊對 因為我曾經發現這個\n我們有外聘委員他有時候有些他有其他的這個這個兼職他也是幫我們這個資方來打官司勞工權益來打官司的這個專門聘請的律師也曾經擔任這個外聘委員\n像這個東西的話他可以這樣做嗎跟文說明我們接下來對於外聘委員的包括人數比例包括他的要做利益迴避他的中立性我們都會在附屬法規裡面然後把它給定清楚好那你們部裡面既然知道了我希望把這些都把它列入重點那也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點是謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.354 --> 00:03.822\n主席好我們請洪部長\n\n00:15.296 --> 00:32.712\n還是有關長榮空勤人員報病出勤後就醫死亡的案件昨天我看到部長對外表示是長榮航空違法的紀錄不少應該要好好跟工會協商誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求\n\n00:33.593 --> 00:51.258\n也說不會只聽長榮的片面之詞那書面報告進一步指出四年來這個航空業勞檢這個勞動檢查238場有50場違反規定的行刑那違法率大概是兩成可是我們看到裁罰了725萬元裡面長榮就佔了352萬元那佔比約這個七成部長\n\n01:00.101 --> 01:28.729\n雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查這個公司接貨員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定那但是呢我們本席質疑的是這位空服員已經不舒服了為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己去出勤我認為公司這個勤務安排與這個請假制度才是關鍵我覺得是應該要從制度面來這個來做檢討那請問部長這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍\n\n01:30.031 --> 01:49.946\n我想整個這個這位組員那他在生前所經歷的狀況我想當然都會是在調查的範圍裡面那我們也現在希望能夠對於一些當不管是downtown的組員或者是相關的戀愛相關人進行訪談\n\n01:51.243 --> 02:07.888\n因為我看到他們前員工在這個社群網路上的指控該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假包含特休只要超過三天隔月即會喪失選班選假的資格更嚴重的是\n\n02:08.468 --> 02:37.001\n如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形這個形同變相的懲罰我在強調這點就是說我們希望說事情發生了當然各個方面的這個措施我們都要去檢討但是我看到這個整個制度面確實是應該有我們有應該有要列入這個調查的一個重點\n\n02:38.081 --> 03:05.585\n部長認為呢我想制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行那當然我說制度也分幾個部分一個部分是公司內部的制度那另外一個也包括如果他公司的規定不合理呢如果剛剛在我們講的是這種這種方式的話公司內部不合理有幾個部分第一個當然從從行政的角度當然要看他我們這樣講啦如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法\n\n03:07.717 --> 03:21.729\n有沒有違反勞基法這個還要再我們要再來做確認但是我的意思說剛剛跟我們報告如果公司內部不合理有幾個有幾個條件第一個就是有沒有違反法規第二個這也是為什麼我們昨天強調其實有蠻多\n\n03:24.071 --> 03:46.052\n這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一\n\n03:46.853 --> 04:00.862\n你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部\n\n04:04.722 --> 04:27.516\n我想我是不會這樣認定啦所以部長你要硬起來好不好這是勞工的權益的確需要跨部會大家一起來督促來要求航空業做出制度性的改善因為這個制度性過勞的狀況我希望這個我們部裡面應該要檢討一下是不是有需要提修法\n\n04:29.737 --> 04:51.105\n結論這種情形我這樣看就是說不會發生在空服員身上希望勞動部透過這次的不幸把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補那禁止企業透過排班績效或身兼制度霸凌依法請假的員工我想這個也應該把它做一個全面性的一個檢討部長可以嗎\n\n04:52.270 --> 05:07.663\n就是我的確是認為這個勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息那這個其實從職場健康的角度來說的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵對那我希望把這個制度大家做一個檢討啦好不好因為這不是我認為這不會只在長榮\n\n05:09.685 --> 05:33.273\n其他企業應該也會有這種情形那接下來就有關巨大機械招美國海關發出這個戰扣令的重大案件台灣製造業人心惶惶那這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的一個風險那也顯示台灣勞工人權治理國際趨勢有落差那上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討\n\n05:34.253 --> 05:57.666\n那預告明年會成立這個延攬中心進行國與國的對接強化政府在職聘制度的角色對嗎是那為了回應人權及貿易的新規則部長是否同意盡快修復這個修訂這個就業服務法及相關指引明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費全面實施這個勞工的這個\n\n06:02.128 --> 06:30.565\nILO的這個倡議我想我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來來合作一個這個輔導的機制那但是法規的部分我們也會同步的來檢視那看法規調整的需求這部分我們會同步來檢視但的確因為台灣的企業的規模樣態比較多所以有可能我們的企業也需要一定時也需要一點時間來去做\n\n06:32.706 --> 07:00.336\n來怎麼樣去更趨近國際要求的調適因為我看到我們產業都這個這產業都與巨大的這個狀況差不多啦有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的這個五項高風險指標你如跨境招募公司管理這個宿舍品質這些面向勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助這個整體製造業的這個這個改善我們會我們會提出指引那這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠\n\n07:01.316 --> 07:29.211\n盡量去對準這個國際上面的規範跟要求請部長這邊我們部裡面快一點我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公佈實施了五年那國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新那人權團體也一再催生這個更新版那勞動部是否這個是跨部會小組的一個重要成員那部長這個政府何時會提出新的這個更新版\n\n07:30.191 --> 07:58.885\n跟委員說沒有企業與人權的這個這部分是經濟部在我知道你們是跨部會的成員嘛但是對但是我剛才說我們也不只是在那個企業與人權的那個裡面去處理我們其實我們一定是要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的對你跟行政院這邊跟經濟部來這邊來來反映嘛看能不能速度加快因為歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權禁止調查\n\n07:59.645 --> 08:15.020\n那這個部分如果我們要應該要盡快提出供應鏈人權保障及企業禁止調查的相關立法那台灣企業要做跟國際做生意啦我希望我們這些這部分要加快腳步好不好\n\n08:15.820 --> 08:42.097\n歐盟的CSDD現在大概延一年到2028可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高所以也不但不會因為歐盟延一年我們就放鬆不會所以我們會很積極的來跟產業界來做相關的輔導那同時就像剛才說的關於法規是否要調整的這個檢視那我們一併也在做這個法規的檢視最後一個\n\n08:42.978 --> 09:06.013\n那回到這個職安法職場霸凌的修法問題那這次修法聚焦在公安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點那請問部長公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴那勞工如果不服公司的調查是否可以向這個地方勞動機關提起再申訴\n\n09:08.005 --> 09:36.042\n答案也是不行嘛對不對跟委員說沒有我們其實現在這次治安法設計裡面其實第一個它可以向企業來申請再次的申付啦企業內部是有那如果這個勞工覺得在僱主在處理調查處理的過程裡面在程序上面是有違反法規的話它其實是可以跟我們的主管機關或者是我們的勞檢單位依照39條就是治安法39條來要求外部的檢查\n\n09:36.642 --> 09:56.372\n來去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規對這個要請外部委員這個是老檢依照39條是請老檢外部的檢查來去做程序性的檢視如果有違反法規的話他必須改善或者是甚至有可能要重啟調查\n\n09:57.532 --> 10:08.386\n對那這些調查的人是這個委員是外聘嘛對不對如果要重啟調查當然還是要符合一定的這個我們外聘委員的要求啊對因為我曾經發現這個\n\n10:11.573 --> 10:29.215\n我們有外聘委員他有時候有些他有其他的這個這個兼職他也是幫我們這個資方來打官司勞工權益來打官司的這個專門聘請的律師也曾經擔任這個外聘委員\n\n10:30.451 --> 10:53.914\n像這個東西的話他可以這樣做嗎跟文說明我們接下來對於外聘委員的包括人數比例包括他的要做利益迴避他的中立性我們都會在附屬法規裡面然後把它給定清楚好那你們部裡面既然知道了我希望把這些都把它列入重點那也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點是謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.354,"end":3.822,"text":"主席好 我們請洪部長"},{"start":15.296,"end":32.712,"text":"還是有關長榮空勤人員報病出勤後就醫死亡的案件昨天我看到部長對外表示是長榮航空違法的紀錄不少應該要好好跟工會協商誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求"},{"start":33.593,"end":51.258,"text":"也說不會只聽長榮的片面之詞那書面報告進一步指出四年來這個航空業勞檢這個勞動檢查238場有50場違反規定的行刑那違法率大概是兩成可是我們看到裁罰了725萬元裡面長榮就佔了352萬元那佔比約這個七成 部長"},{"start":60.101,"end":88.729,"text":"雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查這個公司接貨員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定那但是呢我們本席質疑的是這位空服員已經不舒服了為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己去出勤我認為公司這個勤務安排與這個請假制度才是關鍵我覺得是應該要從制度面來這個來做檢討那請問部長這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍"},{"start":90.031,"end":109.946,"text":"我想整個這個這位組員那他在生前所經歷的狀況我想當然都會是在調查的範圍裡面那我們也現在希望能夠對於一些當不管是downtown的組員或者是相關的戀愛相關人進行訪談"},{"start":111.243,"end":127.888,"text":"因為我看到他們前員工在這個社群網路上的指控該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假包含特休只要超過三天隔月即會喪失選班選假的資格更嚴重的是"},{"start":128.468,"end":157.001,"text":"如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形這個形同變相的懲罰我在強調這點就是說我們希望說事情發生了當然各個方面的這個措施我們都要去檢討但是我看到這個整個制度面確實是應該有我們有應該有要列入這個調查的一個重點"},{"start":158.081,"end":185.585,"text":"部長認為呢我想制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行那當然我說制度也分幾個部分一個部分是公司內部的制度那另外一個也包括如果他公司的規定不合理呢如果剛剛在我們講的是這種這種方式的話公司內部不合理有幾個部分第一個當然從從行政的角度當然要看他我們這樣講啦如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法"},{"start":187.717,"end":201.729,"text":"有沒有違反勞基法這個還要再我們要再來做確認但是我的意思說剛剛跟我們報告如果公司內部不合理有幾個有幾個條件第一個就是有沒有違反法規第二個這也是為什麼我們昨天強調其實有蠻多"},{"start":204.071,"end":226.052,"text":"這個如果不合理的要求其實是可以透過勞資方面的協商所以我們這也是為什麼希望公司應該要誠懇的跟工會好好的協商因為事實上上個月我們長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰這個一百萬元這已經罰到最高了當然他還可以再提高二分之一"},{"start":226.853,"end":240.862,"text":"你們書面報告也說航空業四年五十次那長榮佔了一半這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛因為罰不痛啊改不動依舊目視勞工的健康部長你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部不怕勞動部"},{"start":244.722,"end":267.516,"text":"我想我是不會這樣認定啦所以部長你要硬起來好不好這是勞工的權益的確需要跨部會大家一起來督促來要求航空業做出制度性的改善因為這個制度性過勞的狀況我希望這個我們部裡面應該要檢討一下是不是有需要提修法"},{"start":269.737,"end":291.105,"text":"結論這種情形我這樣看就是說不會發生在空服員身上希望勞動部透過這次的不幸把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補那禁止企業透過排班績效或身兼制度霸凌依法請假的員工我想這個也應該把它做一個全面性的一個檢討部長可以嗎"},{"start":292.27,"end":307.663,"text":"就是我的確是認為這個勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息那這個其實從職場健康的角度來說的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵對 那我希望把這個制度大家做一個檢討啦 好不好因為這不是 我認為這不會只在長榮"},{"start":309.685,"end":333.273,"text":"其他企業應該也會有這種情形那接下來就有關巨大機械招美國海關發出這個戰扣令的重大案件台灣製造業人心惶惶那這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的一個風險那也顯示台灣勞工人權治理國際趨勢有落差那上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討"},{"start":334.253,"end":357.666,"text":"那預告明年會成立這個延攬中心進行國與國的對接強化政府在職聘制度的角色對嗎是那為了回應人權及貿易的新規則部長是否同意盡快修復這個修訂這個就業服務法及相關指引明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費全面實施這個勞工的這個"},{"start":362.128,"end":390.565,"text":"ILO的這個倡議我想我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來來合作一個這個輔導的機制那但是法規的部分我們也會同步的來檢視那看法規調整的需求這部分我們會同步來檢視但的確因為台灣的企業的規模樣態比較多所以有可能我們的企業也需要一定時也需要一點時間來去做"},{"start":392.706,"end":420.336,"text":"來怎麼樣去更趨近國際要求的調適因為我看到我們產業都這個這產業都與巨大的這個狀況差不多啦有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的這個五項高風險指標你如跨境招募公司管理這個宿舍品質這些面向勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助這個整體製造業的這個這個改善我們會我們會提出指引那這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠"},{"start":421.316,"end":449.211,"text":"盡量去對準這個國際上面的規範跟要求請部長這邊 我們部裡面快一點我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公佈實施了五年那國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新那人權團體也一再催生這個更新版那勞動部是否這個是跨部會小組的一個重要成員那部長這個政府何時會提出新的這個更新版"},{"start":450.191,"end":478.885,"text":"跟委員說沒有 企業與人權的這個這部分是經濟部在我知道你們是跨部會的成員嘛但是 對 但是我剛才說我們也不只是在那個企業與人權的那個裡面去處理我們其實我們一定是要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的對 你跟行政院這邊 跟經濟部來這邊來來反映嘛 看能不能速度加快因為歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權禁止調查"},{"start":479.645,"end":495.02,"text":"那這個部分如果我們要應該要盡快提出供應鏈人權保障及企業禁止調查的相關立法那台灣企業要做跟國際做生意啦我希望我們這些這部分要加快腳步好不好"},{"start":495.82,"end":522.097,"text":"歐盟的CSDD現在大概延一年到2028可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高所以也不但不會因為歐盟延一年我們就放鬆 不會所以我們會很積極的來跟產業界來做相關的輔導那同時就像剛才說的關於法規是否要調整的這個檢視那我們一併也在做這個法規的檢視最後一個"},{"start":522.978,"end":546.013,"text":"那回到這個職安法職場霸凌的修法問題那這次修法聚焦在公安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點那請問部長 公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴那勞工如果不服公司的調查是否可以向這個地方勞動機關提起再申訴"},{"start":548.005,"end":576.042,"text":"答案也是不行嘛對不對 跟委員說沒有我們其實現在這次治安法設計裡面其實第一個它可以向企業來申請再次的申付啦企業內部是有那如果這個勞工覺得在僱主在處理調查處理的過程裡面在程序上面是有違反法規的話它其實是可以跟我們的主管機關或者是我們的勞檢單位依照39條就是治安法39條來要求外部的檢查"},{"start":576.642,"end":596.372,"text":"來去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規對 這個要請外部委員 這個是老檢依照39條是請老檢外部的檢查來去做程序性的檢視如果有違反法規的話 他必須改善或者是甚至有可能要重啟調查"},{"start":597.532,"end":608.386,"text":"對 那這些調查的人是 這個委員是外聘嘛 對不對如果要重啟調查當然還是要符合一定的這個我們外聘委員的要求啊對 因為我曾經發現這個"},{"start":611.573,"end":629.215,"text":"我們有外聘委員他有時候有些他有其他的這個這個兼職他也是幫我們這個資方來打官司勞工權益來打官司的這個專門聘請的律師也曾經擔任這個外聘委員"},{"start":630.451,"end":653.914,"text":"像這個東西的話他可以這樣做嗎跟文說明我們接下來對於外聘委員的包括人數比例包括他的要做利益迴避他的中立性我們都會在附屬法規裡面然後把它給定清楚好那你們部裡面既然知道了我希望把這些都把它列入重點那也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點是謝謝部長"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":477,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時7分）主席好，我們請洪部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。還是有關長榮空勤人員抱病出勤後就醫死亡的案件，昨天我看到部長對外表示：長榮航空違法的紀錄不少，應該要好好跟工會協商、誠懇面對基層員工的聲音和需求，也就是不會只聽長榮的片面之詞。而書面報告進一步指出，4年來航空業的勞動檢查238場，有50場違反規定的情形，違法率大概是兩成，可是我們看到裁罰的725萬元裡面，長榮就占了352萬元，占比約七成。","部長，雖然這是桃園市勞工局初步的調查：公司接獲員工反映身體不適後的處置都還算是符合規定。但是本席質疑的是，這位空服員已經不舒服了，為什麼不直接請假還要勉強自己出勤？我認為公司的勤務安排與請假制度才是關鍵，我覺得這應該要從制度面來做檢討。請問部長，這部分有沒有列入調查的範圍？"],["洪部長申翰：我想這位組員在生前所經歷的狀況當然都會在調查的範圍裡面，我們現在也希望能夠對於一些，不管是當趟的組員或者是利害關係人進行訪談。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到他們前員工在社群網路上指控，該公司的空服員如果連續三個月請假（包含特休），只要超過3天，隔月即會喪失選班、選假的資格，更嚴重的是，如果員工因健康狀況較常請假還會被提出改善計畫，造成員工不敢生病或不敢請假的情形，這個形同變相的懲罰。我再強調這點，既然事情發生了，當然各個方面的措施我們都要去檢討，但是我看到整個制度面確實是應該要列入調查的重點。部長認為呢？"],["洪部長申翰：制度面的檢討其實我們也同步在進行，當然，我說制度也分幾個部分，一個部分是公司內部的制度；另外一個也包括……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果公司的規定不合理呢？如果依照剛剛我講的這種方式的話？"],["洪部長申翰：公司內部不合理有幾個部分，第一個，從行政的角度當然要看他……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們這樣講，如果他是這樣規定有沒有違反勞基法？"],["洪部長申翰：關於有沒有違反勞基法，這個我們要再來做確認，但是我的意思是，剛剛跟委員報告，如果公司內部不合理有幾個條件，第一個就是有沒有違反法規；第二個，這也是為什麼我們昨天強調，如果有不合理的要求，其實可以透過勞資方面的協商，這也是為什麼我們希望公司應該要誠懇地跟工會好好協商，不能再用過去這種強硬的態度。"],["邱委員鎮軍：事實上，上個月長榮因為超時工作的關係也被裁罰100萬元，這已經罰到最高了，當然這還可以再提高二分之一；你們書面報告也說航空業4年50次，長榮占了一半。這些大公司好像根本不怕嘛，因為罰不痛、改不動，依舊漠視勞工的健康！部長，你會不會覺得長榮只怕交通部、不怕勞動部？"],["洪部長申翰：我是不會這樣認定啦……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長你要硬起來，好不好？這是勞工的權益！"],["洪部長申翰：但是我覺得這個部分的確需要跨部會，大家一起來督促、來要求航空業必須做出制度性的改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為這種制度性過勞的狀況，我希望部裡面應該要檢討一下，是不是有需要提修法，這種情形我這樣看，就是不要發生在空服員身上，希望勞動部透過這次的不幸，把相關的法令還有制度的漏洞一一修補，禁止企業透過排班、績效或升遷制度霸凌依法請假的員工，我想這個也應該做一個全面性的檢討，部長可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為勞工生病卻硬撐著不休息，從職場健康的角度來說，的確是不該被制度性的鼓勵。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我希望大家把這個制度做一個檢討，好不好？我認為這不會只在長榮，其他企業應該也會有這種情形。","接下來是有關巨大機械遭美國海關發出暫扣令的重大案件，臺灣製造業是人心惶惶，這個案件凸顯勞工人權已經成為國際貿易門檻及企業的風險，也顯示臺灣勞工人權治理與國際趨勢有落差，上個禮拜說你們將會與經濟部一起通案檢討，預告明年會成立延攬中心，進行國與國的對接，強化政府在直聘制度的角色，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為了回應人權及貿易的新規則，部長是否同意儘快修訂就業服務法及相關指引，明確禁止向勞工收取仲介費跟招募費，全面實施勞工ILO的倡議？"],["洪部長申翰：我們首先會先跟經濟部一起來合作建立輔導的機制，但是法規的部分，我們也會同步的來檢視，看法規調整的需求，這部分我們會同步來檢視。但因為臺灣企業的規模樣態比較多，所以有可能我們的企業也需要一點時間來做，看怎麼樣更趨近國際所要求的調適。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我看到我們的產業都與巨大的狀況差不多，有很多都有涉及強迫勞動的五項高風險指標，比如跨境招募、工時管理、宿舍品質這些面向，勞動部會不會提出新的政策指引來協助改善整體製造業？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會提出指引，這個指引的目標其實就是希望能夠儘量去對準國際上面的規範跟要求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請部長讓部裡面快一點，我們企業與人權國家的行動計畫已經公布實施了5年，國家人權委員會建議定期檢討及更新，人權團體也一再催生更新版，勞動部是跨部會小組的一個重要成員，部長，請問政府何時會提出新的更新版？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，企業與人權這個部分是經濟部在草擬。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你們是跨部會的成員。"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是我剛才說我們也不只是在企業與人權的那個裡面去處理，我們一定要跟經濟部來合作這些相關的輔導機制……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你跟行政院跟經濟部來反映嘛？看速度能不能加快。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：歐盟將在2027年強制要求企業進行人權盡職調查，這個部分，我們應該要儘快提出供應鏈、人權保障及企業盡職調查的相關立法，臺灣企業主要是跟國際做生意，我希望我們這部分要加快腳步，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：歐盟的CS3D現在大概延一年，到2028，可是我們其實還是非常非常的審慎在看待現在國際上面對強迫勞動標準的提高，當然也不會因為歐盟延一年，我們就放鬆，不會！我們會很積極地來跟產業界做相關的輔導，同時就像剛才說的，關於法規是否要調整，我們會一併做法規的檢視。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，最後一個，回到職安法關於職場霸凌的修法問題，這次修法聚焦在工安預防全面化及職場霸凌法制化的兩個重點。請問部長，公務人員可以向保訓會提起再申訴，那勞工如果不服公司的調查，是否可以向地方勞動機關提起再申訴？答案是不行嘛？對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實在這次職安法的設計裡面，第一個，他可以向企業申請再次的申復，企業內部是有的，如果勞工覺得雇主在調查處理的過程中，在程序上面有違反法規的話，他其實可以跟主管機關或者是勞檢單位，依照職安法第三十九條來要求外部的檢查，去確認相關的程序是否有符合法規……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，這個要請外部委員，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是要請外部委員來調查？"],["洪部長申翰：這個是勞檢，依照第三十九條是請勞檢外部的檢查，去做程序性的檢視，如果有違反法規的話，他必須改善，甚至有可能要重啟調查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，這些調查的委員是外聘嘛，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：如果要重啟調查，當然還是要符合一定的外聘委員的要求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為我曾經發現有些外聘委員有其他的兼職，他也是幫資方來打官司、幫勞工權益來打官司，是專門聘請的律師，也曾經擔任過這個外聘委員，對不對？像這個東西，他可以這樣做嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們接下來對於外聘委員的部分，包括人數比例，包括他要做利益迴避、他的中立性，我們都會在附屬法規裡面訂清楚。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，既然部裡面知道了，我希望把這些都列入重點，也希望這次修法能夠做得完整一點，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：接下來請林月琴委員來做詢答。委員會這邊宣告：俟林委員詢答結束之後，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}