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129.642, \"end\": 129.662, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 132.743, \"end\": 156.676, \"text\": \"剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 132.743, \"end\": 133.083, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 133.083, \"end\": 133.303, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"陽\", \"start\": 133.303, \"end\": 133.424, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"光\", \"start\": 133.424, \"end\": 133.644, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 133.644, \"end\": 133.784, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 133.784, \"end\": 133.924, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 133.924, \"end\": 134.904, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 134.904, \"end\": 135.185, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 436.835, \"end\": 437.015, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 437.015, \"end\": 437.856, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 437.856, \"end\": 437.996, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 437.996, \"end\": 438.116, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 438.116, \"end\": 438.236, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 438.236, \"end\": 438.356, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 438.356, \"end\": 439.097, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 439.097, \"end\": 439.437, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 439.437, \"end\": 440.118, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"產\"}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 440.118, \"end\": 440.578, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 440.578, \"end\": 440.698, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 440.698, \"end\": 440.858, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"分\", 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00:00:03,311\n阿川你待會不能照要代理一下主席我們請複密請代理秘書長複密好我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法你們什麼時候要提修法\n\n2\n00:00:30,063 --> 00:00:54,936\n那其實這個觀念這個我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上齁一直要解釋但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋啦齁因為這個修法雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關啊修法都是要由主管機關提出來對不對那這個我們的這個這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位啊\n\n3\n00:00:56,016 --> 00:01:24,159\n內政部是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個\n\n4\n00:01:25,020 --> 00:01:49,973\n政治獻金法修正案進來不行啊主管機關不是你們對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行\n\n5\n00:01:52,734 --> 00:02:09,662\n專案的會議我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來就交鳳鳴友長\n\n6\n00:02:12,743 --> 00:02:36,676\n剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對\n\n7\n00:02:37,737 --> 00:03:03,495\n對不對是嗎那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所搭在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任\n\n8\n00:03:05,066 --> 00:03:17,461\n這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式\n\n9\n00:03:18,820 --> 00:03:43,422\n能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制\n\n10\n00:03:45,316 --> 00:04:13,864\n跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法\n\n11\n00:04:14,644 --> 00:04:39,277\n我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個\n\n12\n00:04:42,339 --> 00:05:05,799\n但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請說你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的\n\n13\n00:05:08,137 --> 00:05:26,281\n報告委員法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法\n\n14\n00:05:26,721 --> 00:05:39,811\n那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款\n\n15\n00:05:42,333 --> 00:06:06,524\n代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方\n\n16\n00:06:07,424 --> 00:06:29,741\n那公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見\n\n17\n00:06:31,342 --> 00:06:55,879\n報告委員有關於行政法人法因為出來以後那財政申報法沒有跟著修正那這部分我們也覺得非常必要所以我們13年的時候我們也有建議那麼目前在這個財政申報法修法正在一個法務部也已經開過兩次會那這個我們都有把它建議進去有把這部分納入公法人部分納入因為法務部廉政署他在102年出了在12年前出了一個解釋就直接解釋說\n\n18\n00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:23,120\n公法人的這些統監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年了這時也引起社會上蠻多的這個質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在這個公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個\n\n19\n00:07:25,822 --> 00:07:46,620\n各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種一定比例是一種按照個案查核按照比例查核這兩種查核那這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的這個第7條\n\n20\n00:07:49,202 --> 00:08:08,854\n這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%\n\n21\n00:08:10,799 --> 00:08:16,327\n那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個\n\n22\n00:08:19,266 --> 00:08:42,988\n這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說\n\n23\n00:08:44,610 --> 00:09:02,886\n檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉貪的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式\n\n24\n00:09:04,660 --> 00:09:28,269\n這很多公職人他可能會透過信託境外帳戶虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的\n\n25\n00:09:29,588 --> 00:09:58,527\n他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過\n\n26\n00:09:59,779 --> 00:10:23,575\n所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個\n\n27\n00:10:28,314 --> 00:10:44,980\n其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的Donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個\n\n28\n00:10:48,068 --> 00:11:10,196\n這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面也要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎副民主黨\n\n29\n00:11:14,081 --> 00:11:25,172\n我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個有提出來這部分還是應該要\n\n30\n00:11:30,137 --> 00:11:59,503\n我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台DONATE線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們\n\n31\n00:12:00,023 --> 00:12:00,044\n好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n270\t3311\t阿川你待會不能照 要代理一下主席我們請複密請代理秘書長複密好我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法 你們什麼時候要提修法\n30063\t54936\t那其實這個觀念這個 我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上齁一直要解釋 但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋啦齁因為這個修法 雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關啊修法都是要由主管機關提出來 對不對那這個 我們的這個 這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位啊\n56016\t84159\t內政部 是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個\n85020\t109973\t政治獻金法修正案進來 不行啊主管機關不是你們 對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行\n112734\t129662\t專案的會議我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法 一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來就交鳳鳴友長\n132743\t156676\t剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對\n157737\t183495\t對不對 是嗎那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所搭在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任\n185066\t197461\t這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式\n198820\t223422\t能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制\n225316\t253864\t跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法\n254644\t279277\t我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個\n282339\t305799\t但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請說你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的\n308137\t326281\t報告委員 法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法\n326721\t339811\t那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款\n342333\t366524\t代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方\n367424\t389741\t那公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見\n391342\t415879\t報告委員有關於行政法人法因為出來以後那財政申報法沒有跟著修正那這部分我們也覺得非常必要所以我們13年的時候我們也有建議那麼目前在這個財政申報法修法正在一個法務部也已經開過兩次會那這個我們都有把它建議進去有把這部分納入公法人部分納入因為法務部廉政署他在102年出了在12年前出了一個解釋就直接解釋說\n417000\t443120\t公法人的這些統監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年了這時也引起社會上蠻多的這個質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在這個公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個\n445822\t466620\t各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種 一定比例是一種按照個案查核 按照比例查核這兩種查核那這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的這個第7條\n469202\t488854\t這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%\n490799\t496327\t那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個\n499266\t522988\t這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉 你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說\n524610\t542886\t檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉貪的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式\n544660\t568269\t這很多公職人他可能會透過信託 境外帳戶 虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送 包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的\n569588\t598527\t他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過\n599779\t623575\t所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個\n628314\t644980\t其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的Donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個\n648068\t670196\t這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面也要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎 副民主黨\n674081\t685172\t我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個有提出來這部分還是應該要\n690137\t719503\t我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台DONATE線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們\n720023\t720044\t好 謝謝\n","txt":"阿川你待會不能照 要代理一下主席我們請複密請代理秘書長複密好我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法 你們什麼時候要提修法\n那其實這個觀念這個 我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上齁一直要解釋 但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋啦齁因為這個修法 雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關啊修法都是要由主管機關提出來 對不對那這個 我們的這個 這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位啊\n內政部 是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個\n政治獻金法修正案進來 不行啊主管機關不是你們 對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行\n專案的會議我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法 一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來就交鳳鳴友長\n剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對\n對不對 是嗎那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所搭在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任\n這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式\n能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制\n跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法\n我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個\n但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請說你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的\n報告委員 法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法\n那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款\n代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方\n那公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見\n報告委員有關於行政法人法因為出來以後那財政申報法沒有跟著修正那這部分我們也覺得非常必要所以我們13年的時候我們也有建議那麼目前在這個財政申報法修法正在一個法務部也已經開過兩次會那這個我們都有把它建議進去有把這部分納入公法人部分納入因為法務部廉政署他在102年出了在12年前出了一個解釋就直接解釋說\n公法人的這些統監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年了這時也引起社會上蠻多的這個質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在這個公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個\n各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種 一定比例是一種按照個案查核 按照比例查核這兩種查核那這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的這個第7條\n這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%\n那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個\n這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉 你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說\n檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉貪的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式\n這很多公職人他可能會透過信託 境外帳戶 虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送 包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的\n他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過\n所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個\n其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的Donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個\n這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面也要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎 副民主黨\n我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個有提出來這部分還是應該要\n我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台DONATE線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們\n好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.270 --> 00:03.311\n阿川你待會不能照要代理一下主席我們請複密請代理秘書長複密好我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法你們什麼時候要提修法\n\n00:30.063 --> 00:54.936\n那其實這個觀念這個我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上齁一直要解釋但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋啦齁因為這個修法雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關啊修法都是要由主管機關提出來對不對那這個我們的這個這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位啊\n\n00:56.016 --> 01:24.159\n內政部是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個\n\n01:25.020 --> 01:49.973\n政治獻金法修正案進來不行啊主管機關不是你們對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行\n\n01:52.734 --> 02:09.662\n專案的會議我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來就交鳳鳴友長\n\n02:12.743 --> 02:36.676\n剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對\n\n02:37.737 --> 03:03.495\n對不對是嗎那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所搭在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任\n\n03:05.066 --> 03:17.461\n這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式\n\n03:18.820 --> 03:43.422\n能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制\n\n03:45.316 --> 04:13.864\n跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法\n\n04:14.644 --> 04:39.277\n我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個\n\n04:42.339 --> 05:05.799\n但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請說你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的\n\n05:08.137 --> 05:26.281\n報告委員法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法\n\n05:26.721 --> 05:39.811\n那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款\n\n05:42.333 --> 06:06.524\n代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方\n\n06:07.424 --> 06:29.741\n那公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見\n\n06:31.342 --> 06:55.879\n報告委員有關於行政法人法因為出來以後那財政申報法沒有跟著修正那這部分我們也覺得非常必要所以我們13年的時候我們也有建議那麼目前在這個財政申報法修法正在一個法務部也已經開過兩次會那這個我們都有把它建議進去有把這部分納入公法人部分納入因為法務部廉政署他在102年出了在12年前出了一個解釋就直接解釋說\n\n06:57.000 --> 07:23.120\n公法人的這些統監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年了這時也引起社會上蠻多的這個質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在這個公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個\n\n07:25.822 --> 07:46.620\n各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種一定比例是一種按照個案查核按照比例查核這兩種查核那這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的這個第7條\n\n07:49.202 --> 08:08.854\n這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%\n\n08:10.799 --> 08:16.327\n那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個\n\n08:19.266 --> 08:42.988\n這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說\n\n08:44.610 --> 09:02.886\n檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉貪的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式\n\n09:04.660 --> 09:28.269\n這很多公職人他可能會透過信託境外帳戶虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的\n\n09:29.588 --> 09:58.527\n他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過\n\n09:59.779 --> 10:23.575\n所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個\n\n10:28.314 --> 10:44.980\n其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的Donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個\n\n10:48.068 --> 11:10.196\n這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面也要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎副民主黨\n\n11:14.081 --> 11:25.172\n我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個有提出來這部分還是應該要\n\n11:30.137 --> 11:59.503\n我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台DONATE線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們\n\n12:00.023 --> 12:00.044\n好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.27,"end":3.311,"text":"阿川你待會不能照 要代理一下主席我們請複密請代理秘書長複密好我想這個就延續剛才王宏威委員的質詢在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的適函為什麼你們修法 你們什麼時候要提修法"},{"start":30.063,"end":54.936,"text":"那其實這個觀念這個 我想剛才我們副秘書長一直在台上齁一直要解釋 但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋啦齁因為這個修法 雖然你們是執行機關但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關啊修法都是要由主管機關提出來 對不對那這個 我們的這個 這個政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位啊"},{"start":56.016,"end":84.159,"text":"內政部 是內政部不是你們監察院嗎不是當然當然啦我們監察院是這個是這個執行的核心機關但是但是主管這部法的主管機關就是內政部所以如果要修法就是應該有內政部提出來所以內政部他送行政院院會這個就是這個程序我們不管有多強烈的意見不管我們認為說什麼時候現在就應該要修現在派就說現在就應該修但最後依照法制還是你們不能監察院自己送一個"},{"start":85.02,"end":109.973,"text":"政治獻金法修正案進來 不行啊主管機關不是你們 對不對先把這個部分說清楚所以就不要說這個因為自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣拿來這裡找監察院來出氣我覺得也是不對我們今天是針對我們監察院的這個相關的立法計畫來進行"},{"start":112.734,"end":129.662,"text":"專案的會議我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分一個是監察法 一個是陽光事法大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個所以我今天大概先就也是一樣針對陽光事法的修法的幾個部分來就交鳳鳴友長"},{"start":132.743,"end":156.676,"text":"剛剛有講到陽光市法它這個公職人員財產申報法跟公職人員利益衝突迴避法它主管機關是法務部對不對法務部那另外兩部呢政治獻金法跟遊說法它的主管機關是內政部都不是我們監察院啦齁都不是我們監察院但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法像政治獻金法實際的執行跟裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院對不對"},{"start":157.737,"end":183.495,"text":"對不對 是嗎那這個但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論包括王國文委員所搭在這邊這樣討論其實他就暴露出這個制度上面的一個重要的缺陷就是你們不是主管機關但是卻是執行機關核心的執行機關那這樣子讓你們這個承擔這些制度的回饋政策建議的這些責任"},{"start":185.066,"end":197.461,"text":"這些跟主管機關就分離了責任跟主管機關分離之後這樣子的制度切線我們有沒有什麼樣的方式"},{"start":198.82,"end":223.422,"text":"能夠建立一個針對這樣子的你們核心執行的這些相關的法令能夠有一個回饋的執行上面的回饋機制讓主管機關你們固定的或者什麼樣的執行的回饋的機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面你們認為法令上面應該要做修改應該要做補強了有沒有這樣子的機制有沒有想要想辦法來建立這樣的機制"},{"start":225.316,"end":253.864,"text":"跟委員報告就是說因為我們是最主要的執行機關所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有摯愛的地方那我們都會主動的就跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來那通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見那一定的時間會證比如說像財申法其實監察院有很多的意見法務部也都接受然後提出正式的修法"},{"start":254.644,"end":279.277,"text":"我想這樣子的我還是希望說能夠有一個回饋的機制一個常態性的回饋機制讓這個才不會讓這個法治主管跟執行去脫節那我看你們這個有關陽光事法的部分你們提了修法這個相關立法計畫包括政治獻金法包括遊說法就是這兩個"},{"start":282.339,"end":305.799,"text":"但是有關公職人員財產申報的部分申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是沒有認為應該要修法的地方因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治先進法就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請說你們是不是沒有立法計畫目前沒有針對它有修改的"},{"start":308.137,"end":326.281,"text":"報告委員 法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分監察院沒有提供意見我們都有提供意見那你在這個書面報告上面有提到沒有提到公職員財產申報法監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法"},{"start":326.721,"end":339.811,"text":"那我現在就公職員財產申報法的部分來提出一個我個人認為說現在必須在修法上面是不是能夠來補強的就是有關於公職員財產申報法第二條第一項這個第五款"},{"start":342.333,"end":366.524,"text":"代表政府或公股出任司法人之董事及監察人他必須要申報財產但是在公法人的部分公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法的第二條第一項第七款有納入公法人有納入利益迴避但是沒有納入財產申報這個在制度上面有焊隔的地方"},{"start":367.424,"end":389.741,"text":"那公法人他長期接受政府的補助運用公帑來執行公務他這個具有公權力延伸的性質還有這種公共責任我個人認為說是不是應該我們這個公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報的範圍這部分是不是請我們先請監察院這邊表示意見"},{"start":391.342,"end":415.879,"text":"報告委員有關於行政法人法因為出來以後那財政申報法沒有跟著修正那這部分我們也覺得非常必要所以我們13年的時候我們也有建議那麼目前在這個財政申報法修法正在一個法務部也已經開過兩次會那這個我們都有把它建議進去有把這部分納入公法人部分納入因為法務部廉政署他在102年出了在12年前出了一個解釋就直接解釋說"},{"start":417,"end":443.12,"text":"公法人的這些統監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面對不對那這個經過12年了這時也引起社會上蠻多的這個質疑跟批評那這個部分我希望說我們在這個公主院財產申報法的這個相關的修正我們監察院應該要表示這方面的意見這是第一個部分那第二部分有關於財產申報的部分按照這個財產申報法的第11條這個"},{"start":445.822,"end":466.62,"text":"各受理財產的申報機關應該要進行個案以及一定比例的查核個案是一種 一定比例是一種按照個案查核 按照比例查核這兩種查核那這個11條也授權你們制定了一個辦法你們制定了一個公職員財產申報的資料審核及查閱辦法這個查閱辦法裡面的這個第7條"},{"start":469.202,"end":488.854,"text":"這個第七條的第二項你們提到就是說這個所謂比例的查核是每年申報總人數的5%對不對這個是你們按照抽選辦法定的所謂比例就是5%嘛而且是所有抽查總申報人數的5%"},{"start":490.799,"end":496.327,"text":"那這部分我是覺得應該要這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整因為這個"},{"start":499.266,"end":522.988,"text":"這個你們按照這樣子的比例5%的比例來進行這個比例抽查那個案的部分你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查對不對有個案檢舉 你們有隨機抽隨機抽的部分應該算在比例裡面吧所謂個案就是有個案檢舉的部分才是個案的對不對現在現行是不是這樣個案的部分是指說"},{"start":524.61,"end":542.886,"text":"檢舉或者是法務部他定期會把涉貪的案件的起訴書給我們那這部分我們也會去看他的內容然後做一些個案查核那這個我個人認為欠缺的一個部分就是說有關於這種你們用這種固定的比例跟這個靜態比類方式"},{"start":544.66,"end":568.269,"text":"這很多公職人他可能會透過信託 境外帳戶 虛擬通貨這些新型態的這種方式來進行財產的隱匿那這些部分你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的包括法務部移送 包括個案檢舉你們才做個案的調查我個人認為說這樣子是不夠啦因為事實上你們應該要建立一個機制有一些職務他是高風險的"},{"start":569.588,"end":598.527,"text":"他是有關有這個高風險職務譬如說負責採購啦還是這些補助的審查的這些政治現金的核銷啦政黨資金運用這種都是屬於高風險的你們應該在這部分能夠提高比例啦而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查我認為說這樣子會會很不確實很不確實所以常常出問題了之後才發現說你們根本就可能他已經擔任公職20年30年但是從來沒有被抽查過"},{"start":599.779,"end":623.575,"text":"所以這個部分是不是我們能夠能夠跟這個法務部共同來研商一個風險的分級的查核機制我認為建立這個是必要的那另外還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分是有關於這個政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範沒有規範那這個沒有規範這個"},{"start":628.314,"end":644.98,"text":"其實這個公子園財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入要申報了但是這次現金法沒有這次現金法沒有的狀況你譬如說在直播平台的Donate這些線上的贊助或者是這個"},{"start":648.068,"end":670.196,"text":"這個相關的這種規避規避這個隱匿透過網路平台來規避或隱匿這個捐款來源的這種狀況在現在變得非常普遍尤其是直播平台的donate這種現在都不在我們政治獻金法的規範裡面但是在公職員財產申報裡面也要報政治獻金法卻又不規範這樣子的法制民主黨認為沒有問題嗎 副民主黨"},{"start":674.081,"end":685.172,"text":"我們給行政院的修法意見已經把斗內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院政治獻金法的部分嗎這個有提出來這部分還是應該要"},{"start":690.137,"end":719.503,"text":"我個人認為這個部分是等於是法治的漏洞這部分也就是說我們監察院認為這種數位的募資應該要那包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治監禁法對不對好這個部分請是不是你們這個有關於這個直播的平台DONATE線上贊助虛擬通貨甚至這些NFT數位資產這些東西你們相關的這些法律見解跟這個監管的立場是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會好不好再拜託你們"},{"start":720.023,"end":720.044,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時8分）主席，我們請副秘。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：副秘，就延續剛才王鴻薇委員的質詢，他在那邊講說你們是不是行政院的小弟，你們什麼時候要提修法？剛才副秘書長在臺上一直要解釋，但是就沒有機會可以好好解釋，因為這個修法，雖然你們是執行機關，但是每一部法律都有它的主管機關，修法都是要由主管機關提出來，對不對？政治獻金法的主管機關是哪一個單位？"],["王代理秘書長增華：內政部。"],["沈委員發惠：是內政部，不是你們監察院嘛？"],["王代理秘書長增華：不是我們。"],["沈委員發惠：當然監察院是執行的核心機關，但是這部法的主管機關就是內政部，所以如果要修法，就是應該要由內政部提出來，所以內政部送行政院院會，這個就是程序，不管有多強烈的意見，不管我們認為現在就應該要修，但最後依照法制你們監察院還是不能自己送一個政治獻金法的修正案進來，不行啊！主管機關不是你們，對不對？好，先把這個部分說清楚，所以就不要把自己在罷免的過程中所受到的怨氣，拿來這裡找監察院出氣，我覺得也是不對。","我們今天是針對監察院相關的立法計畫進行專案會議，我看你們的立法計畫大概就是兩個部分，一個是監察法，一個是陽光四法，大概你們所提出的立法計畫就是這個，所以我今天大概也是一樣針對陽光四法修法的幾個部分來就教副秘書長。剛剛有講到陽光四法為公職人員財產申報法與公職人員利益衝突迴避法，其主管機關是法務部，對不對？另外兩部，政治獻金法與遊說法其主管機關是內政部，都不是監察院，但是事實上像公職人員財產申報法、像政治獻金法，實際的執行及裁罰的核心機關其實是監察院，對不對？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是的。"],["沈委員發惠：但是就我們剛才這樣子的討論，包括王鴻薇委員，大家在這邊討論，其實就暴露出這個制度上面一個重要的缺陷，就是你們不是主管機關，但卻是執行機關、核心的執行機關，這樣子讓你們承擔這些制度的回饋、政策建議的責任，與主管機關就分離了。責任跟主管機關分離之後，這樣子的制度缺陷，有沒有什麼樣的方式能夠建立針對你們核心執行了這些相關法令有一個執行上面的回饋機制？讓主管機關與你們有固定的，或者要什麼樣的執行回饋機制讓主管機關理解你們在執行上面認為法令應該要做修改、補強，有沒有這樣子的機制？有沒有想辦法來建立這樣的機制？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，因為我們是最主要的執行機關，所以我們在實務上面會發現有問題或者有窒礙的地方，我們都會主動跟不管是法務部或者內政部提出來，通常法務部跟內政部也非常重視監察院的意見，在一定的時間彙整，比如說像財申法，其實監察院有很多意見，法務部也都接受，然後提出正式的修法等等。"],["沈委員發惠：我還是希望能夠有一個回饋機制，一個常態性的回饋機制，才不會讓法制主管與執行脫節。","我看你們有關陽光四法的部分，你們提了修法相關的立法計畫，包括政治獻金法，包括遊說法，就是這兩個，但是有關公職人員財產申報法的部分你們沒有立法計畫是不是？你們沒有認為應該要修法的地方？因為你們只有提出遊說法跟政治獻金法。"],["王代理秘書長增華：就是有關於財申法的部分可不可以請處長說明？"],["沈委員發惠：你們是不是沒有立法計畫？目前沒有針對它有任何修改的？"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，法務部這邊也有正在修正財產申報法的部分，我們有事先……"],["沈委員發惠：監察院沒有提供意見？"],["陳處長美延：有，我們都有提供意見。"],["沈委員發惠：你在這個書面報告上面沒有提到公職人員財產申報法，監察院的部分只提到遊說法跟政治獻金法。","那我現在就公職人員財產申報法來提出我個人認為現在必須在修法予以補強的部分，就是有關於公職人員財產申報法第二條第一項第五款「代表政府或公股出任私法人之董事及監察人」，他必須要申報財產，目前公法人的部分在財產申報法裡面沒有納入，但是在公職人員利益衝突迴避法第二條第一項第七款有納入，公法人有納入利益迴避，但是沒有納入財產申報，這個在制度上面有扞格的地方，公法人長期接受政府的補助，運用公帑來執行公務，具有公權力延伸的性質還有公共責任，我個人認為公法人的董監事是不是也應該要納入財產申報範圍，這部分是不是先請監察院這邊表示意見？"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，有關於行政法人法出來以後，財產申報法沒有跟著修正，但這一部分我們也覺得非常必要，所以在113年的時候我們也有建議，目前公職人員財產申報法的修法，法務部也已經開過兩次會，這個部分我們都有把它建議進去。"],["沈委員發惠：有把公法人的部分納入？"],["陳處長美延：是。"],["沈委員發惠：因為法務部廉政署在102年、12年前出了一個解釋，就直接解釋說，公法人的這些董監事不在財產申報的範圍裡面，對不對？"],["陳處長美延：是。"],["沈委員發惠：經過12年了，這其實也引起社會上蠻多的質疑跟批評，所以我希望在公職人員財產申報法的相關修正，監察院應該要表示這方面的意見，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，有關於財產申報的部分，按照財產申報法第十一條，各受理財產申報機關應該要進行個案及一定比例的查核，個案是一種，一定比例是一種，也就是按照個案查核、按照比例查核這兩種查核，第十一條也授權你們訂定辦法，你們訂定了一個公職人員財產申報資料審核及查閱辦法，這個查閱辦法裡面的第七條第二項提到，所謂比例之查核，是每年申報總人數的百分之五，對不對？"],["陳處長美延：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這是你們按照授權辦法訂的，所謂比例就是5%，而且是總申報人數的5%，這個部分是不是能夠有所檢討跟調整？因為你們按照5%的比例來進行比例抽查，個案的部分，你們基本上是有個案檢舉才抽查，對不對？你們有隨機抽嗎？隨機抽的部分應該是算在比例裡面吧？所謂個案，就是有個案檢舉才是個案的部分，對不對？現行是不是這樣？"],["陳處長美延：報告委員，個案的部分是指說檢舉，或是法務部定期會把涉貪案件的起訴書給我們，這部分我們也會去看它的內容，然後做一些個案查核。"],["沈委員發惠：好。我個人認為欠缺的部分就是，你們用這種固定的比例跟靜態比對方式，很多公職人員可能會透過信託、境外帳戶、虛擬通貨這些新型態的方式來進行財產隱匿，這些部分，你們如果只是用抽查或者是被動的，包括法務部移送、包括個案檢舉，你們才做個案調查，我個人認為這樣是不夠啦！事實上，你們應該要建立一個機制，有一些職務是高風險的，例如說負責採購還是這些補助的審查、政治獻金的核銷、政黨資金運用，這種都是屬於高風險的，你們應該在這部分提高比例，而不是用總數的5%下去做比例抽查，我認為這樣子會很不確實，所以常常出問題之後才發現，可能他已經擔任公職20年、30年，但是從來沒有被抽查過。所以這個部分是不是能夠跟法務部共同來研商一個風險分級的查核機制？我認為建立這個是必要的。","另外，還有一個我個人認為現在比較嚴重的部分，是有關於政治獻金法裡面數位募資的部分，這部分目前政治獻金法沒有規範，其實公職人員財產申報法在112年已經把這些虛擬通貨納入為要申報了，但是政治獻金法沒有，在這樣的狀況下，例如說在直播平臺的抖內（donate），這些線上的贊助，或者是透過網路平臺來規避或隱匿捐款來源的狀況，現在變得非常普遍，尤其是直播平臺的抖內，這種現在都不在政治獻金法的規範裡面，但是公職人員財產申報法規定要報，而政治獻金法卻又不規範，這樣子的法制，副秘書長認為沒有問題嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：我們給行政院的修法意見，已經把抖內跟虛擬貨幣等等的意見已經提給行政院。"],["沈委員發惠：政治獻金法的部分嗎？"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，政治獻金法的部分，這個有提出來。"],["沈委員發惠：我個人認為這個部分等於是法制的漏洞，也就是說監察院認為這種數位的募資，包括虛擬貨幣都應該要納入政治獻金法，對不對？好，這個部分，有關直播平臺的抖內、線上贊助虛擬通貨，甚至NFT、數位資產這些東西，就你們相關的法律見解跟監管立場，是不是能提出一個書面報告給本委員會？好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：可以。"],["沈委員發惠：好，再拜託你們。"],["王代理秘書長增華：好。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請王義川委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}}