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\"沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 190.464, \"end\": 190.564, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 190.564, \"end\": 190.884, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"標\"}, {\"word\": \"示\", \"start\": 190.884, \"end\": 191.044, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 191.044, \"end\": 191.145, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 191.145, \"end\": 191.205, \"score\": 0.343}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 191.205, \"end\": 191.405, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 191.405, \"end\": 191.505, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 191.505, \"end\": 191.765, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 191.765, \"end\": 191.865, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 191.865, \"end\": 192.025, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"已\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 210.578, \"end\": 210.878, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"勳\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 210.878, \"end\": 211.019, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 211.019, \"end\": 211.279, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 211.279, \"end\": 211.459, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 211.459, \"end\": 211.699, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 211.699, \"end\": 211.939, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 211.939, \"end\": 212.54, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 212.54, \"end\": 212.8, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 212.8, \"end\": 213.4, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"黃\"}, {\"word\": \"仁\", \"start\": 213.4, \"end\": 213.68, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"勳\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 213.68, \"end\": 213.941, \"score\": 0.791}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 213.941, \"end\": 214.121, 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\"end\": 894.82, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 894.82, \"end\": 894.84, \"score\": 0.092}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:30,312\n好主席謝謝麻煩請林部長部長謝謝好部長早部長剛本席只限您聽您剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打炸非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打炸的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最\n\n2\n00:00:31,348 --> 00:01:00,274\n有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是\n\n3\n00:01:00,754 --> 00:01:03,838\n来点一下好来第一黄仁诗应该不会来\n\n4\n00:01:18,035 --> 00:01:33,709\n要送什麼CHAPGTB的書可是很聰明他說黃仁勳送你AI實戰手冊大家想AI教父要送你東西免費很不錯再加上他剛剛的那個聲音語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似我們再看下一個張忠謀的有沒有我們是不是還有一個張忠謀沒有好\n\n5\n00:01:44,963 --> 00:01:57,659\n另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去\n\n6\n00:01:59,817 --> 00:02:15,766\n所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專頁名人的粉絲專頁以前是我創一個名人粉絲專頁但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成好那我們看下一頁\n\n7\n00:02:16,787 --> 00:02:34,274\n不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了\n\n8\n00:02:35,354 --> 00:02:50,104\n詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗\n\n9\n00:02:50,677 --> 00:03:09,924\nOK首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好但是你有看到這個有標示嗎\n\n10\n00:03:10,464 --> 00:03:35,362\n沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人\n\n11\n00:03:37,443 --> 00:04:03,166\n那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我們回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是透過這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是\n\n12\n00:04:05,291 --> 00:04:19,309\n兩個部分第一名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駒現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人是第二其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁\n\n13\n00:04:21,618 --> 00:04:45,305\n平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工\n\n14\n00:04:46,044 --> 00:05:09,023\n是沒錯我完全同意那個是啊所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣\n\n15\n00:05:09,764 --> 00:05:31,943\nOK事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以META事實上在過去一年當中我們的要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們蘇巴部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單\n\n16\n00:05:35,310 --> 00:05:55,245\n600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描\n\n17\n00:05:55,945 --> 00:06:20,806\n所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描是好\n\n18\n00:06:21,346 --> 00:06:47,043\n那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰一千八百萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了\n\n19\n00:06:47,463 --> 00:07:04,260\n我想確認一下Meta現在繳錢了沒有他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時刻我們相信他也會繳好來再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬\n\n20\n00:07:07,003 --> 00:07:21,530\n其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪啦沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話\n\n21\n00:07:22,170 --> 00:07:49,816\n那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多\n\n22\n00:07:51,284 --> 00:08:16,930\n應該是有啦坦白講剛開始我們跟那個Meta在那個談判的時候他們事實上相當的強硬然後我們一直在勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是就一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是沒錯沒錯\n\n23\n00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:43,522\n最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟\n\n24\n00:08:45,231 --> 00:09:02,018\n這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對他的疑慮主要有三點第一個是他的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是他的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害\n\n25\n00:09:02,638 --> 00:09:18,956\n那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個\n\n26\n00:09:20,478 --> 00:09:36,766\n股權結構又變成是美國擁有這點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的\n\n27\n00:09:37,706 --> 00:09:55,091\n然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來\n\n28\n00:09:56,054 --> 00:10:16,552\n中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制那個學童利用這個學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用這個TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP\n\n29\n00:10:17,273 --> 00:10:41,061\n他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP是是不是是好來我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法\n\n30\n00:10:46,902 --> 00:10:54,091\n聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒\n\n31\n00:10:55,374 --> 00:11:18,852\n對那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在\n\n32\n00:11:19,372 --> 00:11:40,310\n在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTokTikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重\n\n33\n00:11:43,072 --> 00:12:02,772\n再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法現在到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過\n\n34\n00:12:03,553 --> 00:12:30,601\n我想這是草野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成\n\n35\n00:12:31,321 --> 00:12:48,606\n這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也誠摯的要求那應該是要把\n\n36\n00:12:49,406 --> 00:13:13,996\n多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體\n\n37\n00:13:15,811 --> 00:13:41,187\n一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題他就不僅只形成在內容的部分而是包括這些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是\n\n38\n00:13:42,588 --> 00:14:05,053\n後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部好什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對但速發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點\n\n39\n00:14:06,873 --> 00:14:30,588\n找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候\n\n40\n00:14:32,833 --> 00:14:54,840\n因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2759\t30312\t好主席謝謝麻煩請林部長部長謝謝好部長早部長剛本席只限您聽您剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打炸非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打炸的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最\n31348\t60274\t有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來 我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對 看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是\n60754\t63838\t来点一下好来第一黄仁诗应该不会来\n78035\t93709\t要送什麼CHAP GTB的書可是很聰明他說黃仁勳送你AI實戰手冊大家想AI教父要送你東西免費很不錯再加上他剛剛的那個聲音語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似我們再看下一個張忠謀的有沒有我們是不是還有一個張忠謀沒有 好\n104963\t117659\t另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去\n119817\t135766\t所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專頁名人的粉絲專頁以前是我創一個名人粉絲專頁但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成好那我們看下一頁\n136787\t154274\t不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了\n155354\t170104\t詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗\n170677\t189924\tOK 首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好 但是你有看到這個有標示嗎\n190464\t215362\t沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人\n217443\t243166\t那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我們回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是透過這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是\n245291\t259309\t兩個部分第一名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駒現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人是第二其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁\n261618\t285305\t平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工\n286044\t309023\t是沒錯我完全同意那個是啊所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣\n309764\t331943\tOK 事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以META事實上在過去一年當中我們的要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們蘇巴部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單\n335310\t355245\t600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有 陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描\n355945\t380806\t所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描是 好\n381346\t407043\t那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰一千八百萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了\n407463\t424260\t我想確認一下 Meta 現在繳錢了沒有 他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續 已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時刻我們相信他也會繳好 來 再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬\n427003\t441530\t其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪啦沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話\n442170\t469816\t那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多\n471284\t496930\t應該是有啦坦白講剛開始我們跟那個Meta在那個談判的時候他們事實上相當的強硬然後我們一直在勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是就一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是沒錯沒錯\n498840\t523522\t最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟\n525231\t542018\t這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是 這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對他的疑慮主要有三點第一個是他的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是他的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害\n542638\t558956\t那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個\n560478\t576766\t股權結構又變成是美國擁有這點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的\n577706\t595091\t然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來\n596054\t616552\t中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制那個學童利用這個學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用這個TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP\n617273\t641061\t他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對 直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP 是是不是 是好 來我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法\n646902\t654091\t聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒\n655374\t678852\t對 那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在\n679372\t700310\t在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTokTikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重\n703072\t722772\t再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法現在到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過\n723553\t750601\t我想這是草野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成\n751321\t768606\t這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也誠摯的要求那應該是要把\n769406\t793996\t多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體\n795811\t821187\t一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題他就不僅只形成在內容的部分而是包括這些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是\n822588\t845053\t後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部好 什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對 但速發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點\n846873\t870588\t找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候\n872833\t894840\t因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好 現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好 謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝\n","txt":"好主席謝謝麻煩請林部長部長謝謝好部長早部長剛本席只限您聽您剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打炸非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打炸的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最\n有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來 我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對 看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是\n来点一下好来第一黄仁诗应该不会来\n要送什麼CHAP GTB的書可是很聰明他說黃仁勳送你AI實戰手冊大家想AI教父要送你東西免費很不錯再加上他剛剛的那個聲音語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似我們再看下一個張忠謀的有沒有我們是不是還有一個張忠謀沒有 好\n另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去\n所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專頁名人的粉絲專頁以前是我創一個名人粉絲專頁但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成好那我們看下一頁\n不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了\n詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗\nOK 首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好 但是你有看到這個有標示嗎\n沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人\n那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我們回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是透過這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是\n兩個部分第一名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駒現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人是第二其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁\n平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工\n是沒錯我完全同意那個是啊所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣\nOK 事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以META事實上在過去一年當中我們的要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們蘇巴部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單\n600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有 陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描\n所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描是 好\n那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰一千八百萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了\n我想確認一下 Meta 現在繳錢了沒有 他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續 已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時刻我們相信他也會繳好 來 再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬\n其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪啦沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話\n那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多\n應該是有啦坦白講剛開始我們跟那個Meta在那個談判的時候他們事實上相當的強硬然後我們一直在勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是就一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是沒錯沒錯\n最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟\n這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是 這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對他的疑慮主要有三點第一個是他的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是他的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害\n那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個\n股權結構又變成是美國擁有這點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的\n然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來\n中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制那個學童利用這個學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用這個TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP\n他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對 直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP 是是不是 是好 來我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法\n聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒\n對 那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在\n在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTokTikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重\n再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法現在到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過\n我想這是草野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成\n這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也誠摯的要求那應該是要把\n多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體\n一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題他就不僅只形成在內容的部分而是包括這些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是\n後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部好 什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對 但速發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點\n找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候\n因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好 現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好 謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.759 --> 00:30.312\n好主席謝謝麻煩請林部長部長謝謝好部長早部長剛本席只限您聽您剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打炸非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打炸的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最\n\n00:31.348 --> 01:00.274\n有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是\n\n01:00.754 --> 01:03.838\n来点一下好来第一黄仁诗应该不会来\n\n01:18.035 --> 01:33.709\n要送什麼CHAPGTB的書可是很聰明他說黃仁勳送你AI實戰手冊大家想AI教父要送你東西免費很不錯再加上他剛剛的那個聲音語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似我們再看下一個張忠謀的有沒有我們是不是還有一個張忠謀沒有好\n\n01:44.963 --> 01:57.659\n另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去\n\n01:59.817 --> 02:15.766\n所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專頁名人的粉絲專頁以前是我創一個名人粉絲專頁但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成好那我們看下一頁\n\n02:16.787 --> 02:34.274\n不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了\n\n02:35.354 --> 02:50.104\n詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗\n\n02:50.677 --> 03:09.924\nOK首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好但是你有看到這個有標示嗎\n\n03:10.464 --> 03:35.362\n沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人\n\n03:37.443 --> 04:03.166\n那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我們回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是透過這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是\n\n04:05.291 --> 04:19.309\n兩個部分第一名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駒現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人是第二其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁\n\n04:21.618 --> 04:45.305\n平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工\n\n04:46.044 --> 05:09.023\n是沒錯我完全同意那個是啊所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣\n\n05:09.764 --> 05:31.943\nOK事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以META事實上在過去一年當中我們的要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們蘇巴部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單\n\n05:35.310 --> 05:55.245\n600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描\n\n05:55.945 --> 06:20.806\n所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描是好\n\n06:21.346 --> 06:47.043\n那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰一千八百萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了\n\n06:47.463 --> 07:04.260\n我想確認一下Meta現在繳錢了沒有他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時刻我們相信他也會繳好來再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬\n\n07:07.003 --> 07:21.530\n其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪啦沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話\n\n07:22.170 --> 07:49.816\n那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多\n\n07:51.284 --> 08:16.930\n應該是有啦坦白講剛開始我們跟那個Meta在那個談判的時候他們事實上相當的強硬然後我們一直在勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是就一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是沒錯沒錯\n\n08:18.840 --> 08:43.522\n最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟\n\n08:45.231 --> 09:02.018\n這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對他的疑慮主要有三點第一個是他的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是他的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害\n\n09:02.638 --> 09:18.956\n那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個\n\n09:20.478 --> 09:36.766\n股權結構又變成是美國擁有這點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的\n\n09:37.706 --> 09:55.091\n然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來\n\n09:56.054 --> 10:16.552\n中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制那個學童利用這個學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用這個TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP\n\n10:17.273 --> 10:41.061\n他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP是是不是是好來我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法\n\n10:46.902 --> 10:54.091\n聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒\n\n10:55.374 --> 11:18.852\n對那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在\n\n11:19.372 --> 11:40.310\n在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTokTikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重\n\n11:43.072 --> 12:02.772\n再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法現在到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過\n\n12:03.553 --> 12:30.601\n我想這是草野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成\n\n12:31.321 --> 12:48.606\n這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也誠摯的要求那應該是要把\n\n12:49.406 --> 13:13.996\n多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體\n\n13:15.811 --> 13:41.187\n一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題他就不僅只形成在內容的部分而是包括這些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是\n\n13:42.588 --> 14:05.053\n後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部好什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對但速發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點\n\n14:06.873 --> 14:30.588\n找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候\n\n14:32.833 --> 14:54.840\n因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.759,"end":30.312,"text":"好主席謝謝麻煩請林部長部長謝謝好部長早部長剛本席只限您聽您剛所說的業務報告AI非常重要思安非常重要打炸非常重要推動數位政府治理非常重要四大面向其中打炸的部分我想跟國人最息息相關也最"},{"start":31.348,"end":60.274,"text":"有深刻有這個生物痛覺本席在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候我也提供我們有網友提供的這個打詐騙的影片我想了解一下說現在一個進度跟狀況來 我們先播放一下因為這跟AI你剛剛講到的以及詐騙其實詐騙集團他們也很聰明他們會日新月異變換很多手法是這個人你認識吧當然對 看得出來嘛黃仁勳嘛是"},{"start":60.754,"end":63.838,"text":"来点一下好来第一黄仁诗应该不会来"},{"start":78.035,"end":93.709,"text":"要送什麼CHAP GTB的書可是很聰明他說黃仁勳送你AI實戰手冊大家想AI教父要送你東西免費很不錯再加上他剛剛的那個聲音語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似我們再看下一個張忠謀的有沒有我們是不是還有一個張忠謀沒有 好"},{"start":104.963,"end":117.659,"text":"另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的一個影片看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音但實際上他看起來就是假的詐騙訊息而且他要叫你去申請然後讓你去"},{"start":119.817,"end":135.766,"text":"所以這已經跟我們之前你剛有報告講是說這個所謂粉絲專頁名人的粉絲專頁以前是我創一個名人粉絲專頁但是我不知道後面是誰但現在他是直接用這一個名人的影像來去合成好那我們看下一頁"},{"start":136.787,"end":154.274,"text":"不只是這個科技大佬會被受害陳美鳳是個知名藝人他自己也在他的臉書到9月18號都還持續講就說他現在不能只有肖像權要AI影音跟聲音的規範不然的話連聲音都造假了"},{"start":155.354,"end":170.104,"text":"詐騙集團用他的聲音用他的肖像變成是一個合成AI的影片然後來去做這種詐騙來我們先針對這幾個部分簡單說明一下我們目前跟這幾個平台以及怎麼樣在防範這個新型態的詐騙來去做打仗"},{"start":170.677,"end":189.924,"text":"OK 首先在那個法律面方面我們之前我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定就是說這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話那它必須做標示所以我們在法院上我們已經有依據了好 但是你有看到這個有標示嗎"},{"start":190.464,"end":215.362,"text":"沒有標示所以我們一定就是已經有法源的依據可以要求他下架那另外在技術面就是如同我們剛才講的我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網事實上委員剛剛看到那兩個就是黃仁勳的影片我們之前已經透過那個網詐通報查詢網的機制就是通報了以後我們會進出了分案然後發現說他說仿冒黃仁勳的我們就直接去通知這個黃仁勳的辦公室請他們確認說這個是不是黃仁勳本人"},{"start":217.443,"end":243.166,"text":"那當然不是黃仁勳本人他回覆他太忙了但是他的秘書就跟我們回覆說這個不是黃仁勳本人然後我們一旦得到這個確認以後我們就馬上自動的利用自動的機制通知這個YouTube或者是Meta各個平台要求把這個下架那我們就是剛才看到那個黃仁勳那個影片已經下架了就是透過這種機制確實是下架了現在沒有找到但是我要問的是"},{"start":245.291,"end":259.309,"text":"兩個部分第一名人的詐騙尤其是這種國際名人尤其黃仁駒現在飛在世界各國你很難說第一時間我還要聯絡他確認說是不是本人是第二其實平台他要上這個廣告上這個詐騙廣告我們看上一頁"},{"start":261.618,"end":285.305,"text":"平台要上這個詐騙廣告他是先收取廣告費用的所以平台怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片來去推播讓我們還要一般的民眾看到之後接收到來去做通報然後之後再透過速發布然後再去要求平台下架那這樣變成是我們速發不一樣或說我們一般普羅大眾消費者變成是我們幫平台在打工"},{"start":286.044,"end":309.023,"text":"是沒錯我完全同意那個是啊所以說我們現在要的是應該是平台他自己就有科技因為對沒錯魔高一尺道要高一丈沒錯所以我們一直強調是說平台應該也有責任他要去做事前的審查如果說明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告他連上都不應該讓他上架沒錯那我們現在跟這幾個平台溝通的狀況怎麼樣"},{"start":309.764,"end":331.943,"text":"OK 事實上就如同委員剛剛講的我們認為說這是平台的責任所以META事實上在過去一年當中我們的要求之下他們已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識然後他也建立了由我們蘇巴部提供一個名單讓他建立就是台灣的公眾人物的臉部的那個我們現在提供多少名單"},{"start":335.31,"end":355.245,"text":"600個我們提供了600包括知名的人士譬如說陳美鳳有沒有在裡面有 陳美鳳有在裡面然後他們會用Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能如果說有人是用照片是黃人訊他會馬上擋住但是他並沒有做到這個影片的掃描"},{"start":355.945,"end":380.806,"text":"所以這還是個破洞事實上為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片也是那個詐騙集團他在鑽漏洞他以前可以直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁現在沒辦法所以他現在就用那個影片的方式所以我們接下來我們一定會要求Meta他除了用那個掃描這個影像以外他對於影片他也應該去做掃描是 好"},{"start":381.346,"end":407.043,"text":"那另外Meta因為現在本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網就是我們速發部這個詐騙通報網其實你看那樣態超過九成都還是從Meta公司的下面不管是Instagram不管是Trade等等的來源這真的是超過因為這是客觀的數據嘛那你現在也已經速發部有開罰一千八百萬就累積幾個數字給Meta了"},{"start":407.463,"end":424.26,"text":"我想確認一下 Meta 現在繳錢了沒有 他們已經繳了繳錢了那後續 已經繳了但是後來250萬因為還在繳納期所以還沒到最後的時刻我們相信他也會繳好 來 再回來但是不管是1500萬不管是250萬"},{"start":427.003,"end":441.53,"text":"其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪啦沒錯那我們要的是他拿出基本的社會責任就是說你應該要跟政府站在一起這一點本其實同意剛剛部長的講法如果說我們是一個正義連線我們是一個好人聯盟的話"},{"start":442.17,"end":469.816,"text":"那我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全那應該是Meta公司也好Google公司也好LINE公司也好大家都加入這個好人連線我們一起來防止詐騙集團嘛很多東西可以賺錢但是詐騙集團的錢黑心錢絕對不能賺這點也要讓這些社群媒體平台知道所以目前我再確定一下你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的一個同感好人有沒有越來越多"},{"start":471.284,"end":496.93,"text":"應該是有啦坦白講剛開始我們跟那個Meta在那個談判的時候他們事實上相當的強硬然後我們一直在勸說其實就如同委員講的這個罰款對他們來講實在是就一點點那最重要我們就勸說他們說這是他們的社會責任而且就會影響到他的形象對他們公司如果說上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團衝刺可能網友可能粉絲他也會流失是沒錯沒錯"},{"start":498.84,"end":523.522,"text":"最後我來確認一下Ttalk我們有這個王委員很紅現在在Ttalk的影片大街小巷人人都會唱但是我們有另外一位王委員講說Ttalk上面會讓青少年白目所以校園要進Ttalk那社群媒體平台剛剛您的報告裡面有講Ttalk也是我們有溝通跟"},{"start":525.231,"end":542.018,"text":"這個納管的一個平台之一是不是是 這個關於TikTok的納管因為這個TikTok我們對他的疑慮主要有三點第一個是他的資料儲存在哪裡第二點是他的股權是不是主要是中資第三點是對兒少的危害"},{"start":542.638,"end":558.956,"text":"那我們這三件事情前兩件事情因為美國跟TikTok有相當嚴重的爭執他們最近在解決這個問題如果順利解決的話有可能這個資料就會儲存在事實上目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了然後再來這個"},{"start":560.478,"end":576.766,"text":"股權結構又變成是美國擁有這點我們還不確定那第三點就是對兒少的危害那這一點就是我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位的溝通因為依照TikTok它本身的規定就是12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的"},{"start":577.706,"end":595.091,"text":"然後13歲到15歲的青少年他在TikTok上他開設帳號他應該是受到一定的限制的所以我們現在會朝向說在中小學這個校園裡面利用科技的方法限制這個學童來使用TikTok我們會朝這個方向來"},{"start":596.054,"end":616.552,"text":"中小學來你再講一遍你說中小學我們會限制那個學童利用這個學校提供的像Wi-Fi這種網路他去使用這個TikTok這個服務因為他本身本來TikTok他自己就規定所以未來你是希望要教育部在各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個APP"},{"start":617.273,"end":641.061,"text":"他如果說學童他這個事情那個必須取得社會共識那我們不會去查個別學童的手機我們只是說學校提供的Wi-Fi學校提供的Wi-Fi直接遮蔽對 直接遮蔽直接遮蔽不能用這特定的APP 是是不是 是好 來我想要確認一下其實主要這也是我要問部長說認為TikTok該不該禁的看法"},{"start":646.902,"end":654.091,"text":"聽你這樣講是我們要等美國我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後我們才要做我們中華民國政府的一個立場勒"},{"start":655.374,"end":678.852,"text":"對 那這個事情就是如同我們剛才講有三個主要的疑慮那這個必須有社會的共識我們當然就是因為這個牽涉到那個言論自由的還有那個媒體的那個自由的那個議題那因為這是一個新興的科技那就是我們目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做那至於說他的資料儲存在"},{"start":679.372,"end":700.31,"text":"在中國當然我們會如果他這資料出現事實上目前TikTok他已經有兩種版本一個是抖音抖音是中國版所以我現在自始自終強調討論的都是TikTok都是TikTokTikTok現在很多的伺服器設在新加坡總部也設在新加坡這個還是有一些資安疑慮但是並沒有像中國大陸那個資安疑慮那麼嚴重"},{"start":703.072,"end":722.772,"text":"再來就是他股權股權這個事情基本上就是美國人也搞不懂台灣我們也搞不懂因為他做得很複雜所以才會有這些爭議部長其實這個追根究柢回來重點我覺得兩個部分就是說我們現在一開始你開宗明義講的AI人工智慧基本法現在到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法能夠順利的三讀通過"},{"start":723.553,"end":750.601,"text":"我想這是草野大家共同努力的地方第一通過這樣的一個基本法我們能夠來協助因為社群媒體平台上面平台是一回事但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分而內容的關鍵其實如同本席剛剛開宗一直討論下來的不管是詐騙不管是一些不實訊息不管是一些危害兒少的訊息它很有可能都利用AI的技術之後反而能夠更容易生成"},{"start":751.321,"end":768.606,"text":"這是現在社會科技的趨勢所以我們一定要盡速的來防堵那再者你剛剛提到如果說是要因應兒少保護以兒少保護為宗旨來去做相關的APU的話那我也誠摯的要求那應該是要把"},{"start":769.406,"end":793.996,"text":"多數的APP都一起列出來是TikTok如果說認為有疑慮內容有疑慮那有沒有其他的APP那就是針對兒少保護這一塊因為其實有一些交友軟體不可諱言它可能也有非常多兒少的議題甚至國外有做過實驗如果說你是用一個12歲的女性的頭貼跟你講說12歲的話你只要上那個交友軟體"},{"start":795.811,"end":821.187,"text":"一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多是所以換言之兒少保護的議題他就不僅只形成在內容的部分而是包括這些交友以及包括網路相關的那如果說要一致來做這樣子的一個納管的話以兒少保護來出發點那可能就要請速發部更全盤的一個檢討是"},{"start":822.588,"end":845.053,"text":"後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通然後來列出清單還有衛福部好 什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來這個相關的清單這個可能要以衛福部跟教育部那邊為主因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責對 但速發部至少如果說這樣的話我們是不是能夠既然本市已經問到這個議題那你剛剛也提到那我覺得說我們比較積極一點"},{"start":846.873,"end":870.588,"text":"找衛福部找消費部一起開會討論能夠把這樣子的一個因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合這其實就是分級制度嘛其實講白了有一些APP真的你認為是說對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話那你可以來去做分級嘛是不是什麼時候"},{"start":872.833,"end":894.84,"text":"因為今天是第一次聽到委員我覺得委員這個建議非常好那我們會朝向這個方向發展我們希望說在年底之前我們會先有一個想法然後到時候再請委員多支持好 現在10月那就是兩個月的時間是不是也跟速發部教育部速發部來跟衛福部教育部一起共同來討論是好不好好 謝謝再請相關報告給本席謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":79,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時25分）主席謝謝，麻煩請林部長。"],["主席：部長謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：委員早安。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長早。部長，剛才本席仔細聆聽您的業務報告，AI非常重要、資安非常重要、打詐非常重要，推動數位政府治理非常重要，有這4大面向。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想其中打詐的部分是跟國人最息息相關，也最深惡痛絕。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：在您兩個禮拜前來本席辦公室的時候，我也給你看網友提供的詐騙影片，我想了解一下現在的進度跟狀況。來，我們先播放一下。因為這跟你剛剛講到的AI以及詐騙有關，其實詐騙集團也很聰明，他們會日新月異地變換很多的手法。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個人你認識吧？"],["林部長宜敬：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：看得出來是黃仁勳嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：來，點一下。","（播放影片）"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，黃仁勳應該不會送什麼ChatGPT的書，可是對方很聰明，說是黃仁勳要送你AI實戰手冊。大家想AI教父要送你東西，是免費的很不錯，再加上他剛剛的那個聲音、語調跟黃仁勳真的有點類似。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們再看下一個，是張忠謀的，有沒有？是不是還有一個張忠謀的？另外還有一個張忠謀的也是這樣的影片，看得出來就像張忠謀的聲音，但實際上它看起來就是假的詐騙訊息，而且是要叫你去申請，然後讓你去點，所以這已經跟我們之前……你剛剛有報告講到所謂粉絲專業、名人的粉絲專業，以前是我創一個名人的粉絲專頁，但我不知道後面是誰，而現在它是直接用這個名人的影像去合成。","我們看下一頁，不只是這個科技大佬受害，陳美鳳是個知名藝人，他到9月18日都還在自己的臉書持續講，現在不能只有肖像權，要有AI影音跟聲音的規範，不然連聲音都造假了。詐騙集團用他的聲音、用他的肖像，變成一個AI合成的影片去做詐騙。","請先針對這幾個部分，簡單說明一下，目前跟這幾個平臺及怎麼防範這個新型態的詐騙做打詐。"],["林部長宜敬：首先在法律面，之前在我們通過的打詐專法裡面其實有規定，這個廣告的內容如果是由AI生成的影像或者是影片的話，那它必須做標示，所以在法源上已經有依據了，像這個都是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你有看到這個有標示嗎？"],["林部長宜敬：沒有標示，所以我們一定……就是已經有法源的依據可以要求它下架。另外在技術面，就如同我們剛剛講的，我們現在設立了網詐通報查詢網，事實上剛剛看到的那兩個黃仁勳的影片，我們之前已經透過網詐通報查詢網的機制，在通報以後我們會儘速分案，發現它在仿冒黃仁勳，我們就直接通知黃仁勳的辦公室，請他們確認這個是不是黃仁勳本人。當然也不是黃仁勳本人回復的，他太忙了，但是他的秘書就會跟我們回復這個不是黃仁勳本人，我們一旦得到確認以後，就會馬上利用自動的機制通知YouTube或者是Meta等各個平臺，要求把這個下架。所以我們剛剛看到的黃仁勳影片已經下架了，就是透過這種機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：確實是下架了，現在沒有找到，但是我要問兩個部分：第一，名人的詐騙，尤其是這種國際名人，也許黃仁勳現在是世界各國在飛，你很難在第一時間聯絡他以確認是不是本人。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二，其實平臺要上這個詐騙廣告是先收取廣告費用的。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以平臺怎麼會容許或放任一個AI生成的影片去推播，還要讓一般的民眾在看到、接收到之後再去做通報，之後再透過數發部去要求平臺下架。這樣不管是我們數發部也好，還是一般普羅大眾的消費者都變成是我們在幫平臺打工啊！"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯，我完全同意那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，所以我們現在要的應該是平臺自己就有科技，因為……"],["林部長宜敬：對，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：魔高一尺，道要高一丈嘛！"],["林部長宜敬：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們一直強調的是平臺應該也有責任……"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：它要去做事前的審查，如果明明是這種AI合成的虛偽廣告，它連上架都不應該讓它上架……"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們現在跟這幾個平臺溝通的狀況怎麼樣？"],["林部長宜敬：事實上，就如同委員剛才講的，我們認為這是平臺的責任，所以Meta過去一年當中在我們的要求之下已經用他們的AI技術做臉部辨識，由我們數發部提供一個名單，讓它建立臺灣公眾人物臉部的……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在提供多少名單？"],["林部長宜敬：600個。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們提供了600個……"],["林部長宜敬：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：包括知名的人士……"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如陳美鳳，有沒有在裡面？"],["林部長宜敬：有，陳美鳳有在裡面。然後Meta會用AI臉部辨識的功能，如果有人是用黃仁勳的照片，它會馬上擋住，但是它並沒有做到影片的掃描，所以這還是個破洞。事實上，為什麼現在出現這些AI的影片？也是詐騙集團在鑽漏洞，他以前直接用黃仁勳的照片就可以開設粉絲頁，現在沒辦法，所以他現在就用影片的方式。所以我們接下來一定會要求Meta，除了掃描影像以外，對於影片，它也應該去做掃描。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。另外，因為本席剛剛看到我們所謂的詐騙通報網，就是數發部的詐騙通報網。你看那個樣態，超過9成都還是從Meta公司的下面，不管是Instagram，或是Threads等等來源，真的是超過9成，這是客觀的數據……"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在數發部也已經有給Meta開罰了1,850萬，就累積幾個數字，我想確認一下Meta現在繳錢了沒？"],["林部長宜敬：有，他們已經繳了。"],["洪委員孟楷：繳錢了，那後續……"],["林署長俊秀：1,600萬已經繳了，但是後來的250萬，因為還在繳納期，還沒到最後的時刻，不過我們相信他也會繳。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。再回來，但是不管是1,600萬，不管是250萬，其實對Meta公司來講也杯水車薪……"],["林部長宜敬：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要的是它拿出基本的社會責任，就是它應該要跟政府站在一起，這一點本席是同意剛剛部長的講法，如果我們是一個正義連線、我們是一個好人聯盟的話，我們防止詐騙就是守護人民的安全，那應該是Meta公司也好，Google公司也好，LINE公司也好，大家都加入這個好人連線，我們一起來防止詐騙集團……"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：很多都是可以賺錢，但是詐騙集團的錢、黑心錢絕對不能賺，這一點也要讓這些社群媒體平臺知道。所以目前我再確定一下，你覺得他們有沒有跟我們有這樣一致的同感，好人有沒有越來越多？"],["林部長宜敬：應該是有。坦白講，剛開始我們跟Meta在談判的時候，他們事實上相當的強硬，然後我們一再地勸說，就如同委員講的，這個罰鍰對他們來講實在是只有一點點，最重要的我們是勸說他們，這是他們的社會責任，而且這會影響到他的形象，對他們公司長期來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果上面的頁面全部都是詐騙集團充斥，他的網友、粉絲可能也會流失，對不對？"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，我來確認一下，TikTok，我們有王委員現在在TikTok的影片很紅，大街小巷人人都會唱，但是有另外一位王委員講TikTok上面會讓青少年白目，所以校園要禁TikTok。"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：社群媒體平臺，剛剛您的報告裡面有講，TikTok也是我們有溝通和納管的平臺之一，是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：是，關於TikTok的納管，我們對TikTok的疑慮主要有三點：第一個是它的資料儲存在哪裡，第二點是它的股權是不是主要是中資，第三點是對兒少的危害。前兩件事情，因為美國跟TikTok也有相當嚴重的爭執，他們最近在解決這個問題，如果順利解決的話，有可能這個資料就會儲存在美國，事實上，目前資料應該已經是相當一部分儲存在美國了；再來，這個股權結構也會變成是美國擁有，這一點我們還不確定；第三點就是對兒少的危害，這一點我們也積極的在跟教育部以及其他單位溝通，因為依照TikTok本身的規定，12歲以下的孩童是不准設立帳號的，13歲到15歲的青少年在TikTok上開設帳號應該是受到一定限制的，所以我們現在會朝向在中小學校園裡面利用科技的方法限制學童來使用TikTok，我們會朝這個方向來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：中小學，你再講一遍，你說中小學……"],["林部長宜敬：就是在中小學，我們會限制學童利用學校提供的像WiFi這種網路去使用TikTok這個服務，因為本來TikTok自己就規定12歲……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來你是希望教育部要各中小學裡面都要查學生的手機裡面有沒有下載這個app？"],["林部長宜敬：這個事情必須取得社會共識，我們不會去查個別學童的手機，我們只是限制學校提供的WiFi……"],["洪委員孟楷：直接遮蔽？"],["林部長宜敬：對，直接遮蔽。"],["洪委員孟楷：直接遮蔽，不能用這個特定的app，是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。我想要確認一下，其實我主要也是要問部長認為TikTok該不該禁的看法。"],["林部長宜敬：TikTok該不該禁，就如同我們剛才講的，有主要的……"],["洪委員孟楷：但聽你這樣講，是我們要等美國的溝通談判完之後，我們才要做，我們中華民國政府的立場呢？"],["林部長宜敬：對，這個事情就如同我們剛才講的，有三個主要的疑慮，這個必須有社會的共識，因為牽涉到言論自由，還有媒體自由的議題。因為這是一個新興的科技，目前我們先從我們最確定的部分就是保護兒少的地方開始做；至於他的資料儲存在中國，當然我們會……，事實上，目前TikTok已經有兩種版本，一個是抖音，抖音是中國版……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在自始至終強調、討論的都是TikTok。"],["林部長宜敬：都是TikTok。那TikTok現在很多的server是設在新加坡，總部也設在新加坡，這個還是有一些資安疑慮，但是並沒有像在中國大陸的資安疑慮那麼嚴重。再來，就是它的股權，股權這個事情基本上美國人也搞不懂，臺灣我們也搞不懂，因為它做得很複雜，所以才會有這些爭議。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這個追根究柢回來，我覺得重點是兩個部分，就是一開始你開宗明義講的AI（人工智慧）基本法，到底我們在這個會期有沒有辦法順利的三讀通過？我想這是朝野大家共同努力的地方……"],["林部長宜敬：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：第一、通過這樣的一個基本法，我們能夠來協助，因為社群媒體平臺上面，平臺是一回事，但是重點是上面的內容是另外一個部分，而內容的關鍵如同本席剛剛一直討論下來的，不管是詐騙，不管是不實訊息，不管是危害兒少的訊息，都很有可能利用AI的技術之後反而更容易生成，這是現在科技的趨勢，所以我們一定要儘速地來防堵。","再者，你剛剛提到，如果要因應兒少保護，以兒少保護為宗旨，來去納管相關app的話，我也誠摯的要求，應該是要把多數的app都列出來。TikTok，如果認為內容有疑慮，有沒有其他的app？那就是針對兒少保護這一塊，因為有一些交友軟體不可諱言可能也有非常多兒少的議題。甚至國外有做過實驗，如果用一個12歲女性的頭貼且自稱12歲的話，只要上那個交友軟體，一天裡面可以收到上百封的交友邀請，而這些交友邀請都是成年男子居多。換言之，兒少保護的議題不僅只限在內容的部分，而是包括這些交友軟體，以及包括網路相關的。如果要一致來做這樣子納管的話，以兒少保護為出發點，可能就要請數發布更全盤的檢討……"],["林部長宜敬：是，這方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：後續這個會跟教育部一起來溝通，然後列出清單……"],["林部長宜敬：還有衛福部。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候可以把這些相關清單給列出來？"],["林部長宜敬：這個相關的清單可能要以衛福部和教育部為主，因為兒少保護本來就是衛福部的職責，但數發部一定會主動的……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是既然本席已經問到這個議題，你剛剛也提到，我覺得你們比較積極一點，找衛福部、找教育部一起開會討論……"],["林部長宜敬：是，這個我們一定會。"],["洪委員孟楷：能夠因應兒少保護來列出可能不適合的，這其實就是分級制度，講白了……"],["林部長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：有一些app，你認為對於15歲以下的國小國中學童真的有疑慮的話，你可以去做分級，是不是？"],["林部長宜敬：是，好。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候？"],["林部長宜敬：因為今天是第一次聽到，我覺得委員這個建議非常好，我們會朝向這個方向發展，我們希望在年底之前會先有一個想法，到時候再請委員多支持……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，現在10月，那就是兩個月的時間，是不是數發部跟衛福部、教育部一起共同來討論，好不好？"],["林部長宜敬：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：再請提供相關報告給本席，謝謝。"],["林部長宜敬：謝謝。"],["主席（洪委員孟楷）：現在委員人數已達，先請教各位在場委員對議事錄有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見，那議事錄確定，謝謝。感謝廖先翔委員還沒有質詢就先過來協助。","再來，我們請第二位質詢的蔡其昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-23-3","speakers":["洪孟楷","蔡其昌","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","何欣純","林俊憲","葛如鈞","李昆澤","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","賴士葆","郭國文","羅美玲","黃健豪","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","游顥","賴惠員","陳冠廷","林國成"],"page_start":239,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148401_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長林宜敬列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148401_00005"}}}