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\"end\": 716.9, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 716.9, \"end\": 717.22, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 717.22, \"end\": 717.32, \"score\": 0.76}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 717.32, \"end\": 717.441, \"score\": 0.779}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 717.441, \"end\": 717.861, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"補\"}, {\"word\": \"刀\", \"start\": 717.861, \"end\": 718.482, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"傷\"}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 718.482, \"end\": 718.562, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 718.562, \"end\": 718.722, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"無\", \"start\": 718.722, \"end\": 718.883, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"辜\", \"start\": 718.883, \"end\": 719.063, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 719.063, \"end\": 719.163, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 719.163, \"end\": 719.243, \"score\": 0.55}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"莊\"}, {\"word\": \"惠\", \"start\": 719.243, \"end\": 719.263, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"雄\", \"start\": 719.263, \"end\": 719.383, \"score\": 0.675}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 719.383, \"end\": 719.403, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,624 --> 00:00:04,725\n謝謝有請我們代理秘書長好請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號\n\n2\n00:00:25,112 --> 00:00:50,646\n監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴理因應對策監察委員王委員賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計劃裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢\n\n3\n00:00:51,431 --> 00:01:09,593\n不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個這個勞動的一個人權是確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話\n\n4\n00:01:10,322 --> 00:01:24,918\n我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名啦有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都把他扶回去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個\n\n5\n00:01:26,459 --> 00:01:30,222\n勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓他更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我也當面跟他講我在裡面每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎\n\n6\n00:01:57,580 --> 00:02:13,136\n但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像比如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到這個南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看喔我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面呢\n\n7\n00:02:21,294 --> 00:02:23,036\n我跟王瑜說我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那邊擲轎擲噴囊喝熱酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場\n\n8\n00:02:29,252 --> 00:02:50,389\n睡覺就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去當然有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦橋櫃洗乾啦\n\n9\n00:02:53,511 --> 00:03:06,174\n勞工也很喜歡你知道嗎抓了有獎金然後前面這20天我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現喔這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差船長都跟你講說欸我這漁船欸我這不是郵輪欸我這是要去抓魚的欸啊你那個廁所是不是很糟糕啊我祖母啊你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大你叫我怎麼辦\n\n10\n00:03:23,407 --> 00:03:46,812\n你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天針對你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP\n\n11\n00:03:47,532 --> 00:04:06,891\n在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大就吉安特大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口啦那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個\n\n12\n00:04:08,573 --> 00:04:26,716\n不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個\n\n13\n00:04:27,782 --> 00:04:41,642\n警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部\n\n14\n00:04:43,665 --> 00:05:05,482\n經濟部到勞動部到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑我這企業龍頭我省省的東西什麼你就跟我說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都不讓我出口所以呢他們就我們經濟部勞動部外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估\n\n15\n00:05:09,125 --> 00:05:26,354\n他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事\n\n16\n00:05:27,415 --> 00:05:47,280\n但問題是我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部或者勞動部我們國內的勞權的勞動的法規到底跟先進國家尤其跟歐盟你這個政府機關你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的不是針對餐館的\n\n17\n00:05:51,798 --> 00:05:56,082\n什麼叫現在美國把我們禁了你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在睡啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊現在他把我們禁了你覺得這個會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣\n\n18\n00:06:18,591 --> 00:06:42,946\n剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以\n\n19\n00:06:45,948 --> 00:06:51,297\n至於說調查後的一個結論是如何我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到\n\n20\n00:06:55,175 --> 00:07:02,680\n美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠\n\n21\n00:07:21,104 --> 00:07:49,760\n你不從我告訴你他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心我就不做因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢就是說我們監察案其實喔你說沒有功能嗎它可以有很多功能啊我很想要做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊\n\n22\n00:07:51,748 --> 00:08:16,714\n欸我如果嚇到這裡我會覺得你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟或者說美國說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運我就遵守法律啦那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監裁院可以好好去補補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢\n\n23\n00:08:18,334 --> 00:08:28,840\n人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院也該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱\n\n24\n00:08:45,569 --> 00:08:50,291\n那你們看7月份你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為那這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講誤判啦\n\n25\n00:09:13,999 --> 00:09:23,005\n這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那裡算帳事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件\n\n26\n00:09:39,295 --> 00:10:03,243\n跟國際上來接軌更可以強化競爭力啊誰說監察院不能做監察院也可以做啊你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威啊\n\n27\n00:10:03,863 --> 00:10:29,925\n你說你執掌你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊\n\n28\n00:10:31,124 --> 00:10:31,907\n祕書長簡單回應這不是開玩笑我告訴你\n\n29\n00:10:35,418 --> 00:11:01,859\n就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請他盡速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合\n\n30\n00:11:02,479 --> 00:11:17,305\n這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個啦人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力啦這要特別小心啦這夾這裡夾我看你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是\n\n31\n00:11:24,828 --> 00:11:51,454\n已經上軌道的會被制裁禁止出口這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候啊很多啊檯面下的好好去了解啦我假裝去人海就企業在那裡跟美國在那裡做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠\n\n32\n00:11:52,734 --> 00:11:59,403\n他那個撇步很多的你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀傷及到無辜好謝謝好謝謝莊惠雄委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2624\t4725\t謝謝 有請我們代理秘書長好 請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號\n25112\t50646\t監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴理因應對策監察委員 王委員 賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計劃裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢\n51431\t69593\t不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個這個勞動的一個人權是確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話\n70322\t84918\t我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名啦有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都把他扶回去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個\n86459\t90222\t勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓他更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我也當面跟他講我在裡面每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎\n117580\t133136\t但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像比如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到這個南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看喔我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面呢\n141294\t143036\t我跟王瑜說我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那邊擲轎 擲噴囊 喝熱酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場\n149252\t170389\t睡覺 就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢 拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去 當然有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎 每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面 你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦 橋櫃洗乾啦\n173511\t186174\t勞工也很喜歡 你知道嗎 抓了有獎金然後前面這20天 我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛 產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現 喔 這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面 讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差船長都跟你講說 欸 我這漁船欸 我這不是郵輪欸我這是要去抓魚的欸啊你那個廁所是不是很糟糕啊我祖母啊 你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大 你叫我怎麼辦\n203407\t226812\t你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天針對你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP\n227532\t246891\t在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大 就吉安特 大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口啦那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個\n248573\t266716\t不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個\n267782\t281642\t警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部\n283665\t305482\t經濟部 到勞動部 到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑 我這企業龍頭我省省的東西 什麼你就跟我說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都不讓我出口所以呢 他們就 我們經濟部 勞動部 外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢 聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估\n309125\t326354\t他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事\n327415\t347280\t但問題是 我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部 或者勞動部 我們國內的勞權的 勞動的法規到底跟先進國家 尤其跟歐盟你這個政府機關 你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的 不是針對餐館的\n351798\t356082\t什麼叫現在美國把我們禁了你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在睡啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊現在他把我們禁了你覺得這個會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣\n378591\t402946\t剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以\n405948\t411297\t至於說調查後的一個結論是如何 我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到\n415175\t422680\t美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠\n441104\t469760\t你不從 我告訴你 他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心 我就不做 因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢 就是說我們監察案其實喔 你說沒有功能嗎它可以有很多功能啊 我很想要做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話 你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引 這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊\n471748\t496714\t欸 我如果嚇到這裡 我會覺得你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟 或者說美國 說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運 我就遵守法律啦那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規 我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監裁院可以好好去補 補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢\n498334\t508840\t人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院也該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱\n525569\t530291\t那你們看7月份 你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為那這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講誤判啦\n553999\t563005\t這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那裡算帳事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件\n579295\t603243\t跟國際上來接軌 更可以強化競爭力啊誰說監察院不能做 監察院也可以做啊你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規 我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威啊\n603863\t629925\t你說你執掌你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊\n631124\t631907\t祕書長 簡單回應 這不是開玩笑 我告訴你\n635418\t661859\t就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請他盡速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合\n662479\t677305\t這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個啦人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力啦這要特別小心啦這夾這裡 夾我看你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是\n684828\t711454\t已經上軌道的 會被制裁禁止出口 這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候啊很多啊 檯面下的好好去了解啦我假裝去人海就企業在那裡跟美國在那裡做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊 這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠\n712734\t719403\t他那個撇步很多的你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀傷及到無辜好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠雄委員\n","txt":"謝謝 有請我們代理秘書長好 請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號\n監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴理因應對策監察委員 王委員 賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計劃裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢\n不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個這個勞動的一個人權是確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話\n我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名啦有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都把他扶回去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個\n勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓他更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我也當面跟他講我在裡面每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎\n但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像比如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到這個南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看喔我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面呢\n我跟王瑜說我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那邊擲轎 擲噴囊 喝熱酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場\n睡覺 就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢 拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去 當然有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎 每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面 你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦 橋櫃洗乾啦\n勞工也很喜歡 你知道嗎 抓了有獎金然後前面這20天 我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛 產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現 喔 這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面 讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差船長都跟你講說 欸 我這漁船欸 我這不是郵輪欸我這是要去抓魚的欸啊你那個廁所是不是很糟糕啊我祖母啊 你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大 你叫我怎麼辦\n你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天針對你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP\n在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大 就吉安特 大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口啦那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個\n不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個\n警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部\n經濟部 到勞動部 到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑 我這企業龍頭我省省的東西 什麼你就跟我說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都不讓我出口所以呢 他們就 我們經濟部 勞動部 外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢 聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估\n他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事\n但問題是 我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部 或者勞動部 我們國內的勞權的 勞動的法規到底跟先進國家 尤其跟歐盟你這個政府機關 你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的 不是針對餐館的\n什麼叫現在美國把我們禁了你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在睡啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊現在他把我們禁了你覺得這個會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣\n剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以\n至於說調查後的一個結論是如何 我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到\n美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠\n你不從 我告訴你 他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心 我就不做 因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢 就是說我們監察案其實喔 你說沒有功能嗎它可以有很多功能啊 我很想要做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話 你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引 這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊\n欸 我如果嚇到這裡 我會覺得你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟 或者說美國 說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運 我就遵守法律啦那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規 我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監裁院可以好好去補 補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢\n人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院也該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱\n那你們看7月份 你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為那這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講誤判啦\n這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那裡算帳事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件\n跟國際上來接軌 更可以強化競爭力啊誰說監察院不能做 監察院也可以做啊你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規 我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威啊\n你說你執掌你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊\n祕書長 簡單回應 這不是開玩笑 我告訴你\n就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請他盡速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合\n這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個啦人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力啦這要特別小心啦這夾這裡 夾我看你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是\n已經上軌道的 會被制裁禁止出口 這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候啊很多啊 檯面下的好好去了解啦我假裝去人海就企業在那裡跟美國在那裡做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊 這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠\n他那個撇步很多的你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀傷及到無辜好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠雄委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.624 --> 00:04.725\n謝謝有請我們代理秘書長好請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號\n\n00:25.112 --> 00:50.646\n監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴理因應對策監察委員王委員賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計劃裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢\n\n00:51.431 --> 01:09.593\n不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個這個勞動的一個人權是確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話\n\n01:10.322 --> 01:24.918\n我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名啦有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都把他扶回去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個\n\n01:26.459 --> 01:30.222\n勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓他更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我也當面跟他講我在裡面每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎\n\n01:57.580 --> 02:13.136\n但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像比如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到這個南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看喔我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面呢\n\n02:21.294 --> 02:23.036\n我跟王瑜說我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那邊擲轎擲噴囊喝熱酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場\n\n02:29.252 --> 02:50.389\n睡覺就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去當然有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦橋櫃洗乾啦\n\n02:53.511 --> 03:06.174\n勞工也很喜歡你知道嗎抓了有獎金然後前面這20天我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現喔這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差船長都跟你講說欸我這漁船欸我這不是郵輪欸我這是要去抓魚的欸啊你那個廁所是不是很糟糕啊我祖母啊你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大你叫我怎麼辦\n\n03:23.407 --> 03:46.812\n你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天針對你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP\n\n03:47.532 --> 04:06.891\n在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大就吉安特大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口啦那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個\n\n04:08.573 --> 04:26.716\n不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個\n\n04:27.782 --> 04:41.642\n警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部\n\n04:43.665 --> 05:05.482\n經濟部到勞動部到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑我這企業龍頭我省省的東西什麼你就跟我說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都不讓我出口所以呢他們就我們經濟部勞動部外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估\n\n05:09.125 --> 05:26.354\n他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事\n\n05:27.415 --> 05:47.280\n但問題是我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部或者勞動部我們國內的勞權的勞動的法規到底跟先進國家尤其跟歐盟你這個政府機關你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的不是針對餐館的\n\n05:51.798 --> 05:56.082\n什麼叫現在美國把我們禁了你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在睡啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊現在他把我們禁了你覺得這個會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣\n\n06:18.591 --> 06:42.946\n剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以\n\n06:45.948 --> 06:51.297\n至於說調查後的一個結論是如何我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到\n\n06:55.175 --> 07:02.680\n美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠\n\n07:21.104 --> 07:49.760\n你不從我告訴你他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心我就不做因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢就是說我們監察案其實喔你說沒有功能嗎它可以有很多功能啊我很想要做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊\n\n07:51.748 --> 08:16.714\n欸我如果嚇到這裡我會覺得你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟或者說美國說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運我就遵守法律啦那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監裁院可以好好去補補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢\n\n08:18.334 --> 08:28.840\n人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院也該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱\n\n08:45.569 --> 08:50.291\n那你們看7月份你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為那這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講誤判啦\n\n09:13.999 --> 09:23.005\n這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那裡算帳事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件\n\n09:39.295 --> 10:03.243\n跟國際上來接軌更可以強化競爭力啊誰說監察院不能做監察院也可以做啊你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威啊\n\n10:03.863 --> 10:29.925\n你說你執掌你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊\n\n10:31.124 --> 10:31.907\n祕書長簡單回應這不是開玩笑我告訴你\n\n10:35.418 --> 11:01.859\n就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請他盡速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合\n\n11:02.479 --> 11:17.305\n這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個啦人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力啦這要特別小心啦這夾這裡夾我看你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是\n\n11:24.828 --> 11:51.454\n已經上軌道的會被制裁禁止出口這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候啊很多啊檯面下的好好去了解啦我假裝去人海就企業在那裡跟美國在那裡做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠\n\n11:52.734 --> 11:59.403\n他那個撇步很多的你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀傷及到無辜好謝謝好謝謝莊惠雄委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.624,"end":4.725,"text":"謝謝 有請我們代理秘書長好 請代理秘書長代理秘書長好我想幾個議題要來請教就是說整個國家人權的行動的一個計畫裡面其實是對我們整個監察院來講的話也是重要的一個課題那我在看到你們在10月3號"},{"start":25.112,"end":50.646,"text":"監察院去發布了新聞稿說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及到強迫勞動事情有沒有善盡監管跟嚴理因應對策監察委員 王委員 賴委員他們也去申請自動調查那我看這一陣子都是聚焦在於整個人權計劃裡面聚焦在整個外籍義工的部分遠洋漁業那其實呢"},{"start":51.431,"end":69.593,"text":"不管是歐盟也好或者說我們監察院整個人權的一個計畫也好那這個對於整個這個勞動的一個人權是確實是一個值得去關注的一個重要的議題但這個過程裡面其實以本席來看的話"},{"start":70.322,"end":84.918,"text":"我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎連這個人權團體我就沒有一點名啦有時候到我辦公室來來拜訪我的時候我當名我都把他扶回去你知道嗎因為每一個人關注面不同這個"},{"start":86.459,"end":90.222,"text":"勞動人權這個確實值得我們繼續去追求讓他更進步但是在這個過程裡面其實對於產業那種打擊那種打擊也要特別去謹慎以我在看元陽醫院來講我看幾個組織來找我的時候我也當面跟他講我在裡面每次都去講說這個傳統去虐待這些外籍勞工講這個住的環境也不好然後他反問我說難道不是真的嗎"},{"start":117.58,"end":133.136,"text":"但其他對於這些漁民來講的話他們那種憤怒你們都不知道第一個你像比如說我要去抓魚了我不管是要到這個南太平洋或者說我要到大西洋去抓魚或者說我要到摩尼西斯去抓魚你去把它看喔我要到這個漁場之前我這個船我從東港開始開我要開到漁場要開20天這20天裡面呢"},{"start":141.294,"end":143.036,"text":"我跟王瑜說我們兩個都是漁工我們兩個就是在那邊擲轎 擲噴囊 喝熱酒這幾十天還沒有到漁場"},{"start":149.252,"end":170.389,"text":"睡覺 就是這樣子而已那到了漁場以後呢 拚了好傳統就跟我們說拚下去 當然有獎金嘛看下去就一直抓所以我們當初在審一例一休的時候本席都一直持反對態度我說要謹慎要謹慎 每一個產業是不同的那在這個過程裡面 你像比如說到了漁場以後啊那個都是一定是玉石工作啦 橋櫃洗乾啦"},{"start":173.511,"end":186.174,"text":"勞工也很喜歡 你知道嗎 抓了有獎金然後前面這20天 我們都是在那裡休息而已很正常嘛 產業就是如此嘛那後來你會發現 喔 這個人權團體就提出抨擊了你看這個漁船裡面 讓這個外籍漁工住得那麼差船長都跟你講說 欸 我這漁船欸 我這不是郵輪欸我這是要去抓魚的欸啊你那個廁所是不是很糟糕啊我祖母啊 你就按照政府的規定就是只能這麼大 你叫我怎麼辦"},{"start":203.407,"end":226.812,"text":"你叫我怎麼辦所以我的意思就是說追求人權的一個進步保障勞工這好但是這個過程裡面其實也不要去傷及無辜這個過程裡面其實互相拉扯到最後達成進步是非常好的一件事情但是本席為什麼特別提到今天針對你們新聞稿拿出來講就是說美國的海關跟他們的邊境保護局就CPP"},{"start":227.532,"end":246.891,"text":"在9月24號對我國的自行車龍頭巨大 就吉安特 大家都知道的就變成對我們這個戰扣令就是暫停輸美的一個不能讓它出口啦那這對我們台灣製造來講的話首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣這個"},{"start":248.573,"end":266.716,"text":"不是只有國家形象的問題還涉及到整個對企業的一個影響那美方這一次的一個指控裡面說這個強迫勞動指標就講到有濫用弱勢惡劣工作條件還有債務扣押還有扣薪跟超時的一個加班這個對我國的產業人群治理確實是一個"},{"start":267.782,"end":281.642,"text":"警訊但是企業他本身也非常負責任的他說他在9月29號就透過美國律師跟CPP去溝通然後10月下旬也將到赴美去申訴我就去了解了經濟部跟勞動部"},{"start":283.665,"end":305.482,"text":"經濟部 到勞動部 到我們外交部就整個國家政府就動起來了都開玩笑 我這企業龍頭我省省的東西 什麼你就跟我說我違反勞權議題然後你全部都不讓我出口所以呢 他們就 我們經濟部 勞動部 外交部也開始在協助他們並拜訪監察院然後呢 聘請國際獨立查核機構來展開這樣的一個評估"},{"start":309.125,"end":326.354,"text":"他公司內部其實也去從2025年1月開始去實施的零招聘費被他指控的部分人家一一去把它做一個更完善所以本席要提出來就是說監察案去做這樣的調查不是壞事"},{"start":327.415,"end":347.28,"text":"但問題是 我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是你經濟部 或者勞動部 我們國內的勞權的 勞動的法規到底跟先進國家 尤其跟歐盟你這個政府機關 你到底有沒有去給他更明確的一個指引這樣才對啊你覺得他現在要調查的 不是針對餐館的"},{"start":351.798,"end":356.082,"text":"什麼叫現在美國把我們禁了你現在又去啟動調查你會讓我們國內的一個企業會認為說我就在睡啊你政府又來給我補我一刀我要講的是人權絕對不能馬虎但是我們國內的企業我們不能倒啊現在他把我們禁了你覺得這個會讓業界會覺得心都涼掉一半我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":378.591,"end":402.946,"text":"剛剛委員報告現在有關於這件事件監察院有調查那人權委員會有發聲明那監察院調查的部分就是委員的重點我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂的經濟部或者是勞動部的部分這才是監察院的職權範圍所以"},{"start":405.948,"end":411.297,"text":"至於說調查後的一個結論是如何 我的意思就是說當國內企業遭到"},{"start":415.175,"end":422.68,"text":"美國這麼大的國家在禁運的時候我們要特別去小心你像譬如說他這次不是只有針對台灣美國政府對我們來說當然是美國對我們是很重要的一個國家但是這個政府你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事你知道嗎他也一直要求說你這個大企業你全部到我們現在多少台灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠"},{"start":441.104,"end":469.76,"text":"你不從 我告訴你 他有他很多的法寶本案要特別小心 我就不做 因為調查當中我就不做任何的一個影射啦那但是呢 就是說我們監察案其實喔 你說沒有功能嗎它可以有很多功能啊 我很想要做幹部員我都沒有辦法有雙重身份啊不然來講的話 你像譬如說我們都可以幫企業把這個整個政府部門該做的指引 這樣的一個制度漏洞我們把它補起來啊"},{"start":471.748,"end":496.714,"text":"欸 我如果嚇到這裡 我會覺得你中華民國政府你對我的勞動的條件規定是這樣子啊你怎麼可以因為說歐盟 或者說美國 說我沒錢給你了我還要去用禁運 我就遵守法律啦那這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想我們自己的法規 我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣的一個潮流那這個也是監裁院可以好好去補 補漏洞的一個地方啊那所以呢"},{"start":498.334,"end":508.84,"text":"人權把它顧好是絕對是一個好事台灣製造這個在國際上我們面子當然也要爭可是問題是我們監察院也該幫幫我們這個企業來補漏洞到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話那才慘所以本席一直認為說你像我們2020年這個推出的商業跟人權國家行動計畫裡面監察院是國家人權委員會是重要的一個支柱"},{"start":525.569,"end":530.291,"text":"那你們看7月份 你看你們國家人權行動計畫裡面你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理裡面其實你們都沒有談你們幾乎都沒有談所以我到本席到認為那這個跨部會的人權風險的預警的一個機制防止企業被國際的誤判我講誤判啦"},{"start":553.999,"end":563.005,"text":"這個其實我們特別要小心如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的一個內功我覺得這很重要的不是事後在那裡算帳事前如果有辦法把這個機制讓它做一個提醒來透過這樣的一個調查幫企業來站穩這樣的一個腳跟才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權的一個條件"},{"start":579.295,"end":603.243,"text":"跟國際上來接軌 更可以強化競爭力啊誰說監察院不能做 監察院也可以做啊你簡單回應一下好不好我們會參考剛剛委員的意見然後本來就是我們針對一定是針對政府機關有沒有違法實質你像歐美的法規 我們如果說政府我們制定出來跟別人有所落差的話剛才你買了公威啊"},{"start":603.863,"end":629.925,"text":"你說你執掌你各個部會裡面你們做得不好啊你們法規裡面企業質疑沒有弄好啊讓我們自己的企業連這樣的一個龍頭都會受到別人的一個制裁啊這個看起來我是覺得我們連政府部門我都覺得如果當我們的企業在那邊為他的生存然後再奮戰的時候林建才我最怕的時候你們再去給人家補刀啊"},{"start":631.124,"end":631.907,"text":"祕書長 簡單回應 這不是開玩笑 我告訴你"},{"start":635.418,"end":661.859,"text":"就是如果說法規上面是有缺漏的部分這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍這本來就是法制上面應該要提出意見那有關於國家人權委員會的部分在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面我們也提出了相關的操作指南的意見請他盡速的更新然後能夠跟相關的國際的公約能夠相契合"},{"start":662.479,"end":677.305,"text":"這個是我們人權委員會也有提出其實本席的重點就只有一個啦人權的治理其實它也可以轉化成變成我們國家跟企業的競爭力啦這要特別小心啦這夾這裡 夾我看你的新聞稿的時候我特別去說連這麼優秀的然後這樣的一個治理在我們國內算是"},{"start":684.828,"end":711.454,"text":"已經上軌道的 會被制裁禁止出口 這是多大的事情所以監裁院就做調查的時候啊很多啊 檯面下的好好去了解啦我假裝去人海就企業在那裡跟美國在那裡做申訴的時候這樣不好啦但是啊 這段期間美國所有所有的一個動作裡面我們要非常小心啦美國有他的國家利益他為了讓他很多廠商到他的國家去設廠"},{"start":712.734,"end":719.403,"text":"他那個撇步很多的你知道嗎這件事要特別注意好不好我很怕我們就變成一個補刀傷及到無辜好 謝謝好 謝謝莊惠雄委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時30分）謝謝，有請代理秘書長。"],["主席：請代理秘書長。"],["王代理秘書長增華：委員早安。"],["莊委員瑞雄：代理秘書長好。我有幾個議題想要請教，整個國家人權行動計畫其實對監察院來講也是一個重要的課題，我看到監察院在10月3號發布的新聞稿是說主管機關對於我國自行車製造商涉及強迫勞動情事，有無善盡監管及研擬因應對策，監察委員王委員、賴委員申請自動調查。我看到這一陣子的人權計畫是聚焦在外籍移工的部分，遠洋漁業嘛，其實不管是歐盟也好，或者是監察院的人權計畫也好，這對於整個勞動人權確實是一個值得去關注的重要議題，但是在這個過程裡面，其實以本席來看的話，我都會覺得你們都不夠謹慎。連人權團體，我就不要一一點名了，有時候到我辦公室來拜訪我的時候，我都當面把他們趕回去了，因為每一個人的關注面不同，勞動人權確實值得我們繼續去追求，讓它更進步，但是在這個過程裡面，對於產業造成的打擊也要特別謹慎。以遠洋漁業來說，幾個組織來找我的時候，我也當面跟他們講，我說你們每次都說船東虐待外籍勞工，或是他們住的環境不好，然後他們反問我「難道不是真的嗎？」我說對一半，但是對於這些漁民來講的話，他們的那種憤怒，你們都不知道。","第一個，比如我要去抓魚，不管是要到南太平洋、大西洋或者是要到模里西斯去抓魚，你去看喔，在到達漁場之前，這個船從東港開始航行，到漁場可能要開20天，這20天裡面呢，假設我跟王義川兩個人都是漁工，我們兩個就是在那邊賭博、吃檳榔、喝酒、睡覺，因為這20天還沒有到漁場，就是這樣子而已，到了漁場以後就開始拚，船東跟我們說拚下去，等一下就有獎金，所以我們看到魚就一直抓啊！我們當初在審查一例一休的時候，本席都一直持反對態度，我說要謹慎、要謹慎，每個產業都是不同的。在這個過程裡面，比如到了漁場以後，那都一定是逾時工作，會超過時間啦，但勞工也很喜歡，你知道嗎？因為抓了有獎金，然後前面這20天我們都只在那裡休息而已，很正常，產業就是如此嘛。但後來那些人權團體就提出抨擊說在漁船裡面讓外籍漁工住的那麼差，但船東會跟你說這是漁船不是郵輪，這是要去抓魚的；也有人抨擊說廁所很糟糕，但他的船按照政府的規定就只能這麼大，你叫他怎麼辦？所以我的意思就是說，追求人權進步、保障勞工這是好的，但是在這個過程裡面，其實也不要去傷及無辜，在這個過程中互相拉扯，到最後達成進步，這是非常好的一件事情。","本席今天為什麼特別針對你們的新聞稿拿出來講，就是美國海關及邊境保衛局（CBP）在9月24號對我國自行車龍頭巨大集團，也就是生產捷安特的公司，這個是大家都知道的，美國對巨大集團發出暫扣令，就是暫停輸美，不讓它出口，對我們臺灣製造來講的話，這是首次因為勞權議題被美方查扣，這個不是只有國家形象的問題，還涉及到對企業的影響。美方這一次的暫扣令指控該輸美商品涉及強迫勞動指標，包括濫用弱勢處境、惡劣工作與生活條件、債務扣押，還有扣薪及超時加班，這個對我國的產業人權治理確實是一個警訊，但是企業本身也非常負責任，他們說在9月29號就透過美國律師去跟CBP溝通，然後10月下旬也將赴美去申訴。我有去了解經濟部跟勞動部，經濟部、勞動部跟我們外交部整個國家政府就動起來了，開玩笑，這是企業龍頭，它所生產的東西被指控有違反勞權議題，然後全部都不讓它出口，所以我們的經濟部、勞動部、外交部也開始在協助，他們並拜訪監察院，然後聘請國際獨立查核機構展開這樣的一個評估，該公司內部其實從2025年1月開始就實施零招聘費，對於被指控的部分，人家也一一的去做得更完善。","所以本席要提出來的是，監察院去做這樣的調查不是壞事，但我反而會覺得你們應該去調查的是經濟部或者勞動部，我們國內有關勞權的勞動法規到底跟先進國家，尤其跟歐盟，政府機關到底有沒有就此給他們更明確的一個指引，這樣才對啊。但你們監察院現在要調查的不是針對產業，以產業來說，現在美國禁止他們的產品輸美之後，你們現在還去啟動調查，你會讓我們國內的企業認為自己已經倒楣了，政府又來補我一刀。我要講的是，人權絕對不能馬虎，可是我們國內的企業不能倒啊！現在美國禁止我們的產品輸美，而監察院這個時候的作法會讓業界覺得心都涼掉一半，我不曉得代理秘書長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["王代理秘書長增華：跟委員報告，有關於這個事件，監察院有調查，人權委員會有發聲明，監察院調查的部分，就是委員的重點，我們監察院的職權只能針對政府機關跟公務員，所以我們針對的一定是剛剛委員所說的所謂經濟部或者是勞動部的部分，這才是監察院的職權範圍。至於調查後的結論是如何，我們會尊重……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是說，當國內企業遭到美國這麼大的國家禁運的時候，我們要特別小心。譬如它這次不是只有針對臺灣，美國對我們來說當然是很重要的一個國家，但是這個政府，你不要以為他每件事情幹的都是好事，他也一直要求大企業全部要到……現在多少在臺灣有競爭力的公司被要求到美國去設廠？如果不從，我告訴你，他有很多的法寶，本案就要特別小心，因為在調查當中，我就不做任何的影射，但是就是說，你說我們的監察院沒有功能嗎？它可以有很多功能，我實在很想去當監委的，但我就沒辦法有雙重身分，不然的話，我們就可以幫企業把整個政府部門該做的指引或制度漏洞給補起來。如果我是業者，我會覺得中華民國政府對勞動條件的規定是這樣子，怎麼可以因為我不符合歐盟或者美國的條件，害我到最後被禁運，我就有遵守法律啊！這個時候我們是不是也該去想一想，我們自己的法規、我們的制度是不是沒有跟上這樣一個潮流？這個也是監察院可以好好去補漏洞的一個地方。","所以把人權顧好是絕對是一個好事，臺灣製造在國際上的面子我們當然也要爭啊！可是問題是我們監察院也該幫忙我們的企業來補漏洞，到最後如果業者是背黑鍋的話，那才慘呢，那才慘呢！本席一直認為，像我們2020年推出的商業人權國家行動計畫，監察院是國家人權委員會的重要支柱。你們7月份的國家人權行動計畫執行成果報告，你們聚焦的是遠洋漁業跟移工，但對於產業供應鏈的人權治理，其實你們都沒有談，你們幾乎都沒有談啦！所以本席倒是認為，跨部會的人權風險的預警機制，防止企業被國際誤判，我講「誤判」，這個我們要特別小心，如何去督促經濟部、勞動部幫企業練好人權的內功，我覺得這個很重要，不是事後在那邊算帳，事前如果有辦法透過這個機制去做一個提醒，透過這樣的調查幫企業站穩腳跟，才可以讓我們自己所謂的人權條件跟國際接軌，更可以強化競爭力，誰說監察院不能做？監察院也可以做啊，你簡單回應一下，好不好？"],["王代理秘書長增華：是，我們會參考剛剛委員所提的意見，我們本來就是針對政府機關有沒有違法失職，然後……"],["莊委員瑞雄：像歐美的法規，如果我們制定出來的法律跟別人有所落差的話，監察院也可以說話啊！"],["王代理秘書長增華：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你可以說各個部會的職掌中有哪裡做得不好，或是法規裡面的企業指引沒有弄好，讓我們自己的企業，連這樣一個龍頭都會受到別人的制裁，這個看起來，我是覺得我們政府部門……當我們的企業在為它的生存在奮戰的時候，我最怕的是你們監察院再去給人家補刀啊！請秘書長簡單回應，這個不要開玩笑。"],["王代理秘書長增華：對，如果是法規上面有缺漏的部分，這也是我們調查意見可以涵蓋的範圍，這本來就是在法制上面應該要提出意見的。有關於國家人權委員會的部分，在剛剛委員所提出來的國家行動計畫裡面，我們也提出了相關操作指南的意見，請它儘速的更新，然後能夠跟相關國際公約相契合，我們人權委員會也有提出類似的意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：本席的重點就只有一個，人權的治理其實也可以轉化成我們國家跟企業的競爭力，這個要特別小心。我看到你們那個新聞稿的時候，我特別覺得連這麼優秀的、在治理方面在國內也已經算是上軌道的企業，會被制裁禁止出口，這是多大的事情。所以監察院在做調查的時候，很多檯面下的部分要好好去了解，我怕多說會害到企業在跟美國做申訴的時候有什麼狀況也不好，但是這段期間對於美國所有的動作，我們要非常小心，美國有它的國家利益，它為了讓很多廠商到它的國家去設廠，它的那些「撇步」很多，所以這件事要特別注意，好不好？我很怕我們變成是在補刀，然後傷及到無辜。謝謝。"],["王代理秘書長增華：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：謝謝王義川委員代理主席。","接下來請翁曉玲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":294,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","吳宗憲","林倩綺","王鴻薇","沈發惠","王義川","翁曉玲","吳思瑤","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","羅智強"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00006"}}}