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748.314, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"叫\", \"start\": 748.314, \"end\": 748.474, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 748.474, \"end\": 748.594, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 748.594, \"end\": 748.654, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 748.654, \"end\": 748.794, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 748.794, \"end\": 749.334, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 749.334, \"end\": 749.354, \"score\": 0.065}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:19,071 --> 00:00:19,271\n我們請陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:31,034 --> 00:00:48,688\n這位來保障人民飲用水的這個安全而且化解民眾的疑慮這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑這個到目前我看農業部的講法是用可能你們也沒有把握是不是\n\n3\n00:00:49,853 --> 00:01:06,962\n你們是希望大家不要亂猜可是又沒有把握什麼意思沒有這不是有沒有把握的問題我第一個就是我們檢測出來的這些這個陰離子介面活性介面劑本身大概0.03到0.07之間跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克\n\n4\n00:01:09,013 --> 00:01:32,027\n差太遠了所以這個基本上是安全的第一個說明比較微量啦可是現實出現嘛那現在就是不要用可能他到底怎麼來他只有兩種可能嘛一種就是清洗對不對一種是天然的嘛我們先看這個很重要是因為我們找到的是從你農水署定名烏山頭水庫的水質顏色這是你自己自己檢查出來的嘛對不對這個\n\n5\n00:01:34,947 --> 00:01:57,352\n吳山頭開始做的光電是在111年隔年開始檢測出來有就你講的是微量可是你看112年的4月份有檢測出來到了8月份又有7月份沒有怎麼會時有時沒有有時候有有時候沒有到了113年的時候3月份又檢測出來了9月份又檢測出來了到了114年4月份又檢測出來\n\n6\n00:02:05,148 --> 00:02:32,976\n就表示第一個保定第一個在設的光電板之後的連續三年都有出現我跟維銘報告不能這樣下結論我們今天是要解決問題的你不要急著應變你這樣講會造成誤解我只要說一句話就是你如果認為這個0.03是因為清潔劑造成的那他大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度\n\n7\n00:02:35,658 --> 00:02:55,569\n重點不在用多少重點有檢出嘛那你要印證所以這是背景值這一個非常重要的你要做一件事情對民眾來講你要化解他的疑慮對不對你是天然的或者是人工的拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎你為什麼不去送檢測你現在跟民眾講的是說來源是可能是水庫中的藻類一個代謝物\n\n8\n00:02:58,390 --> 00:03:22,676\n現在是理性物質科學對我也理性因為我學科學的我們檢測的這個陰離子活性界面劑就是有機物如果融於水以後會產生負離子所以負離子會跟其他的原類做結合所以它是由非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生的然後在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體它如果經過腐壞了以後所生產出的有機質\n\n9\n00:03:23,576 --> 00:03:44,943\n你現在在說理論嘛所以你提的就是可能可能是嘛所以我說今天要化解最簡單的就是拿去檢測博定先確定一個原則應該今天化解那個疑慮嘛不要用拆或者用你們講的可能它是可以檢測出來對不對那你就是今天公開承諾跟大家講趕快送去檢測檢測什麼\n\n10\n00:03:47,198 --> 00:04:09,008\n檢測你現在這個到底怎麼來啊到底是天然的還是你說的可能這個沒有辦法去因為它是一個所謂的陰離子那個活性介面劑它就是一個離子形態你不能說證明說喔它是它是天然的它是合成的這做不到天然的都檢測不出來喔那你怎麼敢講說是天然的現在還可以檢測啊來我跟你講第一個\n\n11\n00:04:12,981 --> 00:04:32,809\n來來我們有很多種檢測方式嘛我剛剛給你看的是你設了之後有出現雖然是微量有嘛對不對那你就拿去檢測檢測說這個他的來源到底是哪邊來的你不用可能第二個我們再更進一步來做一個如果說有第三個單位可以檢測的數字來來來否定還有一個方法啦還有一個方法你之前在\n\n12\n00:04:33,973 --> 00:04:54,213\n你送第三方去檢測嘛這就是最科學物質科學的對不對這樣才可以化解人民的餘力我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的天然的檢驗這是一個第二個你還有一個很重要的調一下它的清洗日期如果是我剛剛你們自己的顯示每個月份都有嘛對不對\n\n13\n00:04:55,424 --> 00:05:24,557\n如果剛好是那個月份是清洗的對的怎樣嘛如果跟清洗日期對不上來那就不是嘛我們一年檢測五次我們不因為齁在整個光電板的合約是水洗我們對水是檢測我現在就說你把你把這五次跟你清洗的幾次把它對起來就知道了嘛我們沒有說一定有跟沒有對起來的結果是什麼我們很理性的在討論我也非常理性的因為我學科學的我現在跟你講對不對我學自然科學的所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方\n\n14\n00:05:25,157 --> 00:05:28,485\n第二個把清洗的志祺做個對照送第三方送什麼我說送什麼\n\n15\n00:05:32,244 --> 00:05:55,853\n那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的沒有就是隨地檢測啊那就是拿那個去送檢測啊不是你當然是沒有檢測出來我剛才說的陰離子活性介面機不可能檢測出說他是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑他沒辦法這樣做啊過去有檢測你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測我是檢測那個那個離子就是活性介面機這個東西你剛才說要我去檢測這個東西的來源\n\n16\n00:05:59,674 --> 00:06:13,047\n他的來源沒有你怎麼講說是天然的你打自己嘴巴嗎我跟你講喔絕對不是打自己嘴巴如果說你認為是清潔劑那你證明是清潔劑我說你就要用12噸所以是12噸嘛你自己都檢測出來有喔\n\n17\n00:06:20,888 --> 00:06:39,676\n那你說是天然的檢測嗎我們歷史的檢測都是我只叫你說你自己檢查出來有對不對我不瞭解要檢查什麼我真的不知道要檢查什麼這個就是一種化學的一個結構的一個成分像離子的成分這樣子啊\n\n18\n00:06:40,910 --> 00:06:55,562\n你之前檢測有檢測嗎你說吧你現在疑問就是說你要送什麼去檢測嘛對不對你之前有檢測出來就表示那個檢測體拿去給第三方檢測嘛檢測什麼嘛檢測它的人工還是自然嘛就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊\n\n19\n00:06:57,025 --> 00:07:17,492\n你去看看所有鞋子專家現在都想說可以檢測出來為什麼你不行那如果檢測不出來憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的我說清洗的話你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度嘛那這個濃度是微量的嘛整個水庫用那麼多你怎麼知道不是一個小規模這個清洗\n\n20\n00:07:18,356 --> 00:07:39,189\n你這樣就避免對人民飲用水安全你任何一點一絲小規模都不行嘛飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準讓人民判斷讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗然後跟前後的清洗日期把它對照去做一個比較做這兩件事情你不做的話人民會有公平接下來\n\n21\n00:07:40,455 --> 00:08:00,761\n我還是強調要檢測我可以送水底任何人要來檢測我可以送水底沒問題這個沒問題對啦你就送去檢測嘛沒有水底嘛水底可以我可以承認有水底可以檢測嘛那就送去嘛好來接下來這個很重要齁我教你去台南最近鄉親一些農民都來陳情跟抗議你請一三碼\n\n22\n00:08:02,902 --> 00:08:16,534\n經濟什麼貸團上個月去美國大肆採購簽了合約要買三千億台幣的農產品對不對不是三千億台幣的農產品是針對特定的品項的農產品黃小豆跟對啦黃小豆黃豆剩多少你知道在哪裡我們台灣的黃豆剩多少在哪裡\n\n23\n00:08:29,793 --> 00:08:49,775\n我們台灣的黃豆的自給率只有0.02%大概是一千多公頃對我們嘉義跟台南農民那個是他的生計我跟你講啦我們種的黃豆都是實用的我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的這兩個是不一樣的\n\n24\n00:08:51,261 --> 00:09:05,227\n對啊那我們的農民就說不管是用的還是農業那個飼料對我就發生憧憬你今天來懲罰你要怎麼懲罰我跟你講等一下還有更多台南跟嘉義的沒有關係我跟委員報告我們進來的讓他的飼料成本會降低\n\n25\n00:09:06,372 --> 00:09:34,079\n飼料成本降低的話對我們農民反而是有幫助的種黃豆的是實用的嘛我們我們的是飼料飼料用跟實用的是不一樣的我只要送黃豆的一些農民都來等一下廷輝可能會講他們也都等下賴慧妍他們都會來問這個問題啦我要跟你講加拿大跟台南種黃豆的現在你要去買四年三千億台幣的這個黃小益進來我先跟你講美國賺我們\n\n26\n00:09:36,087 --> 00:09:54,743\n台灣黃小玉的比例我給大家看黃豆我們54.4全部都是美國進的進了全世界的這個黃豆小麥78.1玉米73.3保定你那天去簽的時候你還講我們是未來4年黃小豆的這個增過的這個比例25%\n\n27\n00:09:56,325 --> 00:10:14,073\n那表示量很多我跟委員報告這全部都是業者自己採購的他們是業者年度的需求年度的需求這個不是我們特別帶的他已經辦了15次了是不是減短尾巴我問兩個問題你說你帶去第一個你就希望說能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嗎我沒有這樣講喔\n\n28\n00:10:20,976 --> 00:10:34,449\n那為什麼要去採購這個這個是年度的每兩年一次固定的聯合採購期盼對臺美關稅有幫助你有沒有希望他對臺美關稅談判有幫助我們當然希望他有幫助啊因為所有的作為是互得的嘛\n\n29\n00:10:39,133 --> 00:10:58,282\n你去買那麼多衝擊到他們你到底關稅有沒有降衝擊在哪邊我覺得委員不要用形容詞我剛才說的我們進來的資料對農產品你具體的你對關稅你做了什麼幫助好的談判就是有給有拿對不對現在很清楚我們都去買了25%我跟委員報告我很理性問你兩個問題我覺得委員不要誤導方向要好的談判有給就有拿\n\n30\n00:11:07,867 --> 00:11:26,504\n你買了這麼多有沒有降下來是一個第二個你對他們黃曉棟我告訴你所有的買賣不是對價的東西農民的衝擊你要怎麼幫他們我們業者買是因為業者的需求我們讓全民看我的問題是不是都是非常明確的部長全民會做公平的啦我現在只是提醒你你不要誤導就可以了為什麼要誤導我問你請問什麼地方誤導這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導\n\n31\n00:11:30,387 --> 00:11:43,959\n第一個你要對關稅有什麼幫忙你清楚跟民眾講你可能可以降多少第二個我們農民來陳情你黃小益買比平常多25%有什麼衝擊不是農業部長該做的事嗎時間到了可是你不要搞定我只問那兩個那是農民要問你的問題\n\n32\n00:11:50,283 --> 00:12:16,852\n齁你要去解答問題我相信全民有看得出我們的農業部長到底能幫農民的潛力我不瞭解委員是不是在開直播啦這個是委員會的質詢我很清楚的我很清楚的告訴你我們買進來的是對農民有幫助的飼料用的成本我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民是農民想要問你你是農業部長應該幫他們解決問題啊所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民請問什麼地方有不對\n\n33\n00:12:19,249 --> 00:12:29,354\n我問你這兩個你去關稅要降多少這個跟關稅有什麼關係這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係這個關稅跟關稅有什麼關係我原動抗議喔憑什麼他講我的講的資訊是有問題的這個跟購買這個購買跟關稅有什麼問題有什麼關係這個購買不是對價關係你擴大對美的採購不就是要去降關稅嗎時間到我們休息五分鐘我們叫前面去公平叫前面去公平\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n19071\t19271\t我們請陳部長\n31034\t48688\t這位來保障人民飲用水的這個安全而且化解民眾的疑慮這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑這個到目前我看農業部的講法是用可能你們也沒有把握是不是\n49853\t66962\t你們是希望大家不要亂猜可是又沒有把握什麼意思沒有 這不是有沒有把握的問題我第一個就是我們檢測出來的這些這個陰離子介面 活性介面劑本身大概0.03到0.07之間跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克\n69013\t92027\t差太遠了 所以這個基本上是安全的第一個說明比較微量啦 可是現實出現嘛 那現在就是不要用可能他到底怎麼來 他只有兩種可能嘛一種就是清洗對不對一種是天然的嘛 我們先看 這個很重要是因為我們找到的是從你農水署定名烏山頭水庫的水質顏色 這是你自己自己檢查出來的嘛 對不對這個\n94947\t117352\t吳山頭開始做的光電是在111年隔年開始檢測出來有就你講的是微量可是你看112年的4月份有檢測出來到了8月份又有7月份沒有怎麼會時有時沒有有時候有有時候沒有到了113年的時候3月份又檢測出來了9月份又檢測出來了到了114年4月份又檢測出來\n125148\t152976\t就表示第一個 保定第一個在設的光電板之後的連續三年都有出現我跟維銘報告不能這樣下結論我們今天是要解決問題的你不要急著應變你這樣講會造成誤解我只要說一句話就是你如果認為這個0.03是因為清潔劑造成的那他大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度\n155658\t175569\t重點不在用多少 重點有檢出嘛 那你要印證所以這是背景值 這一個非常重要的你要做一件事情 對民眾來講 你要化解他的疑慮對不對你是天然的或者是人工的 拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎你為什麼不去送檢測 你現在跟民眾講的是說來源是可能是水庫中的藻類一個代謝物\n178390\t202676\t現在是理性物質科學對 我也理性 因為我學科學的我們檢測的這個陰離子活性界面劑就是有機物如果融於水以後會產生負離子所以負離子會跟其他的原類做結合所以它是由非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生的然後在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體它如果經過腐壞了以後所生產出的有機質\n203576\t224943\t你現在在說理論嘛所以你提的就是可能可能是嘛所以我說今天要化解最簡單的就是拿去檢測博定先確定一個原則應該今天化解那個疑慮嘛不要用拆或者用你們講的可能它是可以檢測出來對不對那你就是今天公開承諾跟大家講趕快送去檢測檢測什麼\n227198\t249008\t檢測你現在這個到底怎麼來啊到底是天然的還是你說的可能這個沒有辦法去因為它是一個所謂的陰離子那個活性介面劑它就是一個離子形態你不能說證明說喔它是它是天然的它是合成的這做不到天然的都檢測不出來喔那你怎麼敢講說是天然的現在還可以檢測啊來我跟你講第一個\n252981\t272809\t來來我們有很多種檢測方式嘛我剛剛給你看的是你設了之後有出現雖然是微量有嘛對不對那你就拿去檢測檢測說這個他的來源到底是哪邊來的你不用可能第二個我們再更進一步來做一個如果說有第三個單位可以檢測的數字來來來否定還有一個方法啦還有一個方法你之前在\n273973\t294213\t你送第三方去檢測嘛這就是最科學 物質科學的對不對這樣才可以化解人民的餘力我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的 天然的檢驗 這是一個第二個 你還有一個很重要的調一下它的清洗日期如果是 我剛剛你們自己的顯示每個月份都有嘛 對不對\n295424\t324557\t如果剛好是那個月份是清洗的對的怎樣嘛如果跟清洗日期對不上來那就不是嘛我們一年檢測五次我們不因為齁在整個光電板的合約是水洗我們對水是檢測我現在就說你把你把這五次跟你清洗的幾次把它對起來就知道了嘛我們沒有說一定有跟沒有對起來的結果是什麼我們很理性的在討論我也非常理性的因為我學科學的我現在跟你講對不對我學自然科學的所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方\n325157\t328485\t第二個 把清洗的志祺做個對照送第三方送什麼我說送什麼\n332244\t355853\t那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的沒有就是隨地檢測啊那就是拿那個去送檢測啊不是你當然是沒有檢測出來我剛才說的陰離子活性介面機不可能檢測出說他是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑他沒辦法這樣做啊過去有檢測你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測我是檢測那個那個離子就是活性介面機這個東西你剛才說要我去檢測這個東西的來源\n359674\t373047\t他的來源沒有 你怎麼講說是天然的你打自己嘴巴嗎我跟你講喔 絕對不是打自己嘴巴如果說你認為是清潔劑 那你證明是清潔劑我說你就要用12噸所以是12噸嘛你自己都檢測出來有喔\n380888\t399676\t那你說是天然的檢測嗎我們歷史的檢測都是我只叫你說你自己檢查出來有對不對我不瞭解要檢查什麼我真的不知道要檢查什麼這個就是一種化學的一個結構的一個成分像離子的成分這樣子啊\n400910\t415562\t你之前檢測有檢測嗎你說吧你現在疑問就是說你要送什麼去檢測嘛對不對你之前有檢測出來就表示那個檢測體拿去給第三方檢測嘛檢測什麼嘛檢測它的人工還是自然嘛就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊\n417025\t437492\t你去看看所有鞋子專家現在都想說可以檢測出來為什麼你不行那如果檢測不出來憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的我說清洗的話你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度嘛那這個濃度是微量的嘛整個水庫用那麼多你怎麼知道不是一個小規模這個清洗\n438356\t459189\t你這樣就避免對人民飲用水安全你任何一點一絲小規模都不行嘛飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準讓人民判斷讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗然後跟前後的清洗日期把它對照去做一個比較做這兩件事情你不做的話人民會有公平接下來\n460455\t480761\t我還是強調要檢測我可以送水底任何人要來檢測我可以送水底沒問題這個沒問題對啦 你就送去檢測嘛沒有 水底嘛水底可以我可以承認有水底可以檢測嘛那就送去嘛好 來接下來這個很重要齁我教你去台南最近鄉親一些農民都來陳情跟抗議你請一三碼\n482902\t496534\t經濟什麼 貸團上個月去美國大肆採購 簽了合約要買三千億台幣的農產品 對不對不是三千億台幣的農產品是針對特定的品項的農產品黃小豆跟 對啦黃小豆 黃豆剩多少 你知道在哪裡我們台灣的黃豆剩多少在哪裡\n509793\t529775\t我們台灣的黃豆的自給率只有0.02%大概是一千多公頃對我們嘉義跟台南農民那個是他的生計我跟你講啦我們種的黃豆都是實用的我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的這兩個是不一樣的\n531261\t545227\t對啊 那我們的農民就說不管是用的還是農業那個飼料對我就發生憧憬你今天來懲罰你要怎麼懲罰我跟你講等一下還有更多台南跟嘉義的沒有關係我跟委員報告我們進來的讓他的飼料成本會降低\n546372\t574079\t飼料成本降低的話對我們農民反而是有幫助的種黃豆的是實用的嘛我們我們的是飼料飼料用跟實用的是不一樣的我只要送黃豆的一些農民都來等一下廷輝可能會講他們也都 等下賴慧妍他們都會來問這個問題啦我要跟你講加拿大跟台南種黃豆的現在你要去買四年三千億台幣的這個黃小益進來 我先跟你講美國賺我們\n576087\t594743\t台灣黃小玉的比例 我給大家看黃豆我們54.4 全部都是美國進的進了全世界的這個黃豆小麥78.1玉米73.3保定你那天去簽的時候你還講我們是未來4年黃小豆的這個增過的這個比例25%\n596325\t614073\t那表示量很多我跟委員報告這全部都是業者自己採購的他們是業者年度的需求年度的需求這個不是我們特別帶的他已經辦了15次了是不是減短尾巴我問兩個問題你說你帶去第一個你就希望說能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嗎我沒有這樣講喔\n620976\t634449\t那為什麼要去採購這個這個是年度的每兩年一次固定的聯合採購期盼對臺美關稅有幫助你有沒有希望他對臺美關稅談判有幫助我們當然希望他有幫助啊因為所有的作為是互得的嘛\n639133\t658282\t你去買那麼多衝擊到他們你到底關稅有沒有降衝擊在哪邊我覺得委員不要用形容詞我剛才說的我們進來的資料對農產品你具體的你對關稅你做了什麼幫助好的談判就是有給有拿對不對現在很清楚我們都去買了25%我跟委員報告我很理性問你兩個問題我覺得委員不要誤導方向要好的談判有給就有拿\n667867\t686504\t你買了這麼多有沒有降下來是一個第二個你對他們 黃曉棟我告訴你所有的買賣不是對價的東西農民的衝擊你要怎麼幫他們我們業者買是因為業者的需求我們讓全民看我的問題是不是都是非常明確的部長 全民會做公平的啦我現在只是提醒你你不要誤導就可以了為什麼要誤導我問你請問什麼地方誤導這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導\n690387\t703959\t第一個你要對關稅有什麼幫忙你清楚跟民眾講你可能可以降多少第二個我們農民來陳情你黃小益買比平常多25%有什麼衝擊不是農業部長該做的事嗎時間到了可是你不要搞定我只問那兩個那是農民要問你的問題\n710283\t736852\t齁 你要去解答問題我相信全民有看得出我們的農業部長到底能幫農民的潛力我不瞭解委員是不是在開直播啦這個是委員會的質詢我很清楚的我很清楚的告訴你我們買進來的是對農民有幫助的飼料用的成本我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民是農民想要問你你是農業部長應該幫他們解決問題啊所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民請問什麼地方有不對\n739249\t749354\t我問你這兩個 你去關稅要降多少這個跟關稅有什麼關係這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係這個關稅跟關稅有什麼關係我原動抗議喔憑什麼他講我的 講的資訊是有問題的這個跟購買這個購買跟關稅有什麼問題有什麼關係這個購買不是對價關係你擴大對美的採購不就是要去降關稅嗎時間到 我們休息五分鐘我們叫前面去公平 叫前面去公平\n","txt":"我們請陳部長\n這位來保障人民飲用水的這個安全而且化解民眾的疑慮這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑這個到目前我看農業部的講法是用可能你們也沒有把握是不是\n你們是希望大家不要亂猜可是又沒有把握什麼意思沒有 這不是有沒有把握的問題我第一個就是我們檢測出來的這些這個陰離子介面 活性介面劑本身大概0.03到0.07之間跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克\n差太遠了 所以這個基本上是安全的第一個說明比較微量啦 可是現實出現嘛 那現在就是不要用可能他到底怎麼來 他只有兩種可能嘛一種就是清洗對不對一種是天然的嘛 我們先看 這個很重要是因為我們找到的是從你農水署定名烏山頭水庫的水質顏色 這是你自己自己檢查出來的嘛 對不對這個\n吳山頭開始做的光電是在111年隔年開始檢測出來有就你講的是微量可是你看112年的4月份有檢測出來到了8月份又有7月份沒有怎麼會時有時沒有有時候有有時候沒有到了113年的時候3月份又檢測出來了9月份又檢測出來了到了114年4月份又檢測出來\n就表示第一個 保定第一個在設的光電板之後的連續三年都有出現我跟維銘報告不能這樣下結論我們今天是要解決問題的你不要急著應變你這樣講會造成誤解我只要說一句話就是你如果認為這個0.03是因為清潔劑造成的那他大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度\n重點不在用多少 重點有檢出嘛 那你要印證所以這是背景值 這一個非常重要的你要做一件事情 對民眾來講 你要化解他的疑慮對不對你是天然的或者是人工的 拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎你為什麼不去送檢測 你現在跟民眾講的是說來源是可能是水庫中的藻類一個代謝物\n現在是理性物質科學對 我也理性 因為我學科學的我們檢測的這個陰離子活性界面劑就是有機物如果融於水以後會產生負離子所以負離子會跟其他的原類做結合所以它是由非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生的然後在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體它如果經過腐壞了以後所生產出的有機質\n你現在在說理論嘛所以你提的就是可能可能是嘛所以我說今天要化解最簡單的就是拿去檢測博定先確定一個原則應該今天化解那個疑慮嘛不要用拆或者用你們講的可能它是可以檢測出來對不對那你就是今天公開承諾跟大家講趕快送去檢測檢測什麼\n檢測你現在這個到底怎麼來啊到底是天然的還是你說的可能這個沒有辦法去因為它是一個所謂的陰離子那個活性介面劑它就是一個離子形態你不能說證明說喔它是它是天然的它是合成的這做不到天然的都檢測不出來喔那你怎麼敢講說是天然的現在還可以檢測啊來我跟你講第一個\n來來我們有很多種檢測方式嘛我剛剛給你看的是你設了之後有出現雖然是微量有嘛對不對那你就拿去檢測檢測說這個他的來源到底是哪邊來的你不用可能第二個我們再更進一步來做一個如果說有第三個單位可以檢測的數字來來來否定還有一個方法啦還有一個方法你之前在\n你送第三方去檢測嘛這就是最科學 物質科學的對不對這樣才可以化解人民的餘力我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的 天然的檢驗 這是一個第二個 你還有一個很重要的調一下它的清洗日期如果是 我剛剛你們自己的顯示每個月份都有嘛 對不對\n如果剛好是那個月份是清洗的對的怎樣嘛如果跟清洗日期對不上來那就不是嘛我們一年檢測五次我們不因為齁在整個光電板的合約是水洗我們對水是檢測我現在就說你把你把這五次跟你清洗的幾次把它對起來就知道了嘛我們沒有說一定有跟沒有對起來的結果是什麼我們很理性的在討論我也非常理性的因為我學科學的我現在跟你講對不對我學自然科學的所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方\n第二個 把清洗的志祺做個對照送第三方送什麼我說送什麼\n那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的沒有就是隨地檢測啊那就是拿那個去送檢測啊不是你當然是沒有檢測出來我剛才說的陰離子活性介面機不可能檢測出說他是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑他沒辦法這樣做啊過去有檢測你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測我是檢測那個那個離子就是活性介面機這個東西你剛才說要我去檢測這個東西的來源\n他的來源沒有 你怎麼講說是天然的你打自己嘴巴嗎我跟你講喔 絕對不是打自己嘴巴如果說你認為是清潔劑 那你證明是清潔劑我說你就要用12噸所以是12噸嘛你自己都檢測出來有喔\n那你說是天然的檢測嗎我們歷史的檢測都是我只叫你說你自己檢查出來有對不對我不瞭解要檢查什麼我真的不知道要檢查什麼這個就是一種化學的一個結構的一個成分像離子的成分這樣子啊\n你之前檢測有檢測嗎你說吧你現在疑問就是說你要送什麼去檢測嘛對不對你之前有檢測出來就表示那個檢測體拿去給第三方檢測嘛檢測什麼嘛檢測它的人工還是自然嘛就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊\n你去看看所有鞋子專家現在都想說可以檢測出來為什麼你不行那如果檢測不出來憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的我說清洗的話你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度嘛那這個濃度是微量的嘛整個水庫用那麼多你怎麼知道不是一個小規模這個清洗\n你這樣就避免對人民飲用水安全你任何一點一絲小規模都不行嘛飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準讓人民判斷讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗然後跟前後的清洗日期把它對照去做一個比較做這兩件事情你不做的話人民會有公平接下來\n我還是強調要檢測我可以送水底任何人要來檢測我可以送水底沒問題這個沒問題對啦 你就送去檢測嘛沒有 水底嘛水底可以我可以承認有水底可以檢測嘛那就送去嘛好 來接下來這個很重要齁我教你去台南最近鄉親一些農民都來陳情跟抗議你請一三碼\n經濟什麼 貸團上個月去美國大肆採購 簽了合約要買三千億台幣的農產品 對不對不是三千億台幣的農產品是針對特定的品項的農產品黃小豆跟 對啦黃小豆 黃豆剩多少 你知道在哪裡我們台灣的黃豆剩多少在哪裡\n我們台灣的黃豆的自給率只有0.02%大概是一千多公頃對我們嘉義跟台南農民那個是他的生計我跟你講啦我們種的黃豆都是實用的我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的這兩個是不一樣的\n對啊 那我們的農民就說不管是用的還是農業那個飼料對我就發生憧憬你今天來懲罰你要怎麼懲罰我跟你講等一下還有更多台南跟嘉義的沒有關係我跟委員報告我們進來的讓他的飼料成本會降低\n飼料成本降低的話對我們農民反而是有幫助的種黃豆的是實用的嘛我們我們的是飼料飼料用跟實用的是不一樣的我只要送黃豆的一些農民都來等一下廷輝可能會講他們也都 等下賴慧妍他們都會來問這個問題啦我要跟你講加拿大跟台南種黃豆的現在你要去買四年三千億台幣的這個黃小益進來 我先跟你講美國賺我們\n台灣黃小玉的比例 我給大家看黃豆我們54.4 全部都是美國進的進了全世界的這個黃豆小麥78.1玉米73.3保定你那天去簽的時候你還講我們是未來4年黃小豆的這個增過的這個比例25%\n那表示量很多我跟委員報告這全部都是業者自己採購的他們是業者年度的需求年度的需求這個不是我們特別帶的他已經辦了15次了是不是減短尾巴我問兩個問題你說你帶去第一個你就希望說能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嗎我沒有這樣講喔\n那為什麼要去採購這個這個是年度的每兩年一次固定的聯合採購期盼對臺美關稅有幫助你有沒有希望他對臺美關稅談判有幫助我們當然希望他有幫助啊因為所有的作為是互得的嘛\n你去買那麼多衝擊到他們你到底關稅有沒有降衝擊在哪邊我覺得委員不要用形容詞我剛才說的我們進來的資料對農產品你具體的你對關稅你做了什麼幫助好的談判就是有給有拿對不對現在很清楚我們都去買了25%我跟委員報告我很理性問你兩個問題我覺得委員不要誤導方向要好的談判有給就有拿\n你買了這麼多有沒有降下來是一個第二個你對他們 黃曉棟我告訴你所有的買賣不是對價的東西農民的衝擊你要怎麼幫他們我們業者買是因為業者的需求我們讓全民看我的問題是不是都是非常明確的部長 全民會做公平的啦我現在只是提醒你你不要誤導就可以了為什麼要誤導我問你請問什麼地方誤導這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導\n第一個你要對關稅有什麼幫忙你清楚跟民眾講你可能可以降多少第二個我們農民來陳情你黃小益買比平常多25%有什麼衝擊不是農業部長該做的事嗎時間到了可是你不要搞定我只問那兩個那是農民要問你的問題\n齁 你要去解答問題我相信全民有看得出我們的農業部長到底能幫農民的潛力我不瞭解委員是不是在開直播啦這個是委員會的質詢我很清楚的我很清楚的告訴你我們買進來的是對農民有幫助的飼料用的成本我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民是農民想要問你你是農業部長應該幫他們解決問題啊所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民請問什麼地方有不對\n我問你這兩個 你去關稅要降多少這個跟關稅有什麼關係這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係這個關稅跟關稅有什麼關係我原動抗議喔憑什麼他講我的 講的資訊是有問題的這個跟購買這個購買跟關稅有什麼問題有什麼關係這個購買不是對價關係你擴大對美的採購不就是要去降關稅嗎時間到 我們休息五分鐘我們叫前面去公平 叫前面去公平\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:19.071 --> 00:19.271\n我們請陳部長\n\n00:31.034 --> 00:48.688\n這位來保障人民飲用水的這個安全而且化解民眾的疑慮這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑這個到目前我看農業部的講法是用可能你們也沒有把握是不是\n\n00:49.853 --> 01:06.962\n你們是希望大家不要亂猜可是又沒有把握什麼意思沒有這不是有沒有把握的問題我第一個就是我們檢測出來的這些這個陰離子介面活性介面劑本身大概0.03到0.07之間跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克\n\n01:09.013 --> 01:32.027\n差太遠了所以這個基本上是安全的第一個說明比較微量啦可是現實出現嘛那現在就是不要用可能他到底怎麼來他只有兩種可能嘛一種就是清洗對不對一種是天然的嘛我們先看這個很重要是因為我們找到的是從你農水署定名烏山頭水庫的水質顏色這是你自己自己檢查出來的嘛對不對這個\n\n01:34.947 --> 01:57.352\n吳山頭開始做的光電是在111年隔年開始檢測出來有就你講的是微量可是你看112年的4月份有檢測出來到了8月份又有7月份沒有怎麼會時有時沒有有時候有有時候沒有到了113年的時候3月份又檢測出來了9月份又檢測出來了到了114年4月份又檢測出來\n\n02:05.148 --> 02:32.976\n就表示第一個保定第一個在設的光電板之後的連續三年都有出現我跟維銘報告不能這樣下結論我們今天是要解決問題的你不要急著應變你這樣講會造成誤解我只要說一句話就是你如果認為這個0.03是因為清潔劑造成的那他大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度\n\n02:35.658 --> 02:55.569\n重點不在用多少重點有檢出嘛那你要印證所以這是背景值這一個非常重要的你要做一件事情對民眾來講你要化解他的疑慮對不對你是天然的或者是人工的拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎你為什麼不去送檢測你現在跟民眾講的是說來源是可能是水庫中的藻類一個代謝物\n\n02:58.390 --> 03:22.676\n現在是理性物質科學對我也理性因為我學科學的我們檢測的這個陰離子活性界面劑就是有機物如果融於水以後會產生負離子所以負離子會跟其他的原類做結合所以它是由非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生的然後在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體它如果經過腐壞了以後所生產出的有機質\n\n03:23.576 --> 03:44.943\n你現在在說理論嘛所以你提的就是可能可能是嘛所以我說今天要化解最簡單的就是拿去檢測博定先確定一個原則應該今天化解那個疑慮嘛不要用拆或者用你們講的可能它是可以檢測出來對不對那你就是今天公開承諾跟大家講趕快送去檢測檢測什麼\n\n03:47.198 --> 04:09.008\n檢測你現在這個到底怎麼來啊到底是天然的還是你說的可能這個沒有辦法去因為它是一個所謂的陰離子那個活性介面劑它就是一個離子形態你不能說證明說喔它是它是天然的它是合成的這做不到天然的都檢測不出來喔那你怎麼敢講說是天然的現在還可以檢測啊來我跟你講第一個\n\n04:12.981 --> 04:32.809\n來來我們有很多種檢測方式嘛我剛剛給你看的是你設了之後有出現雖然是微量有嘛對不對那你就拿去檢測檢測說這個他的來源到底是哪邊來的你不用可能第二個我們再更進一步來做一個如果說有第三個單位可以檢測的數字來來來否定還有一個方法啦還有一個方法你之前在\n\n04:33.973 --> 04:54.213\n你送第三方去檢測嘛這就是最科學物質科學的對不對這樣才可以化解人民的餘力我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的天然的檢驗這是一個第二個你還有一個很重要的調一下它的清洗日期如果是我剛剛你們自己的顯示每個月份都有嘛對不對\n\n04:55.424 --> 05:24.557\n如果剛好是那個月份是清洗的對的怎樣嘛如果跟清洗日期對不上來那就不是嘛我們一年檢測五次我們不因為齁在整個光電板的合約是水洗我們對水是檢測我現在就說你把你把這五次跟你清洗的幾次把它對起來就知道了嘛我們沒有說一定有跟沒有對起來的結果是什麼我們很理性的在討論我也非常理性的因為我學科學的我現在跟你講對不對我學自然科學的所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方\n\n05:25.157 --> 05:28.485\n第二個把清洗的志祺做個對照送第三方送什麼我說送什麼\n\n05:32.244 --> 05:55.853\n那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的沒有就是隨地檢測啊那就是拿那個去送檢測啊不是你當然是沒有檢測出來我剛才說的陰離子活性介面機不可能檢測出說他是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑他沒辦法這樣做啊過去有檢測你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測我是檢測那個那個離子就是活性介面機這個東西你剛才說要我去檢測這個東西的來源\n\n05:59.674 --> 06:13.047\n他的來源沒有你怎麼講說是天然的你打自己嘴巴嗎我跟你講喔絕對不是打自己嘴巴如果說你認為是清潔劑那你證明是清潔劑我說你就要用12噸所以是12噸嘛你自己都檢測出來有喔\n\n06:20.888 --> 06:39.676\n那你說是天然的檢測嗎我們歷史的檢測都是我只叫你說你自己檢查出來有對不對我不瞭解要檢查什麼我真的不知道要檢查什麼這個就是一種化學的一個結構的一個成分像離子的成分這樣子啊\n\n06:40.910 --> 06:55.562\n你之前檢測有檢測嗎你說吧你現在疑問就是說你要送什麼去檢測嘛對不對你之前有檢測出來就表示那個檢測體拿去給第三方檢測嘛檢測什麼嘛檢測它的人工還是自然嘛就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊\n\n06:57.025 --> 07:17.492\n你去看看所有鞋子專家現在都想說可以檢測出來為什麼你不行那如果檢測不出來憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的我說清洗的話你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度嘛那這個濃度是微量的嘛整個水庫用那麼多你怎麼知道不是一個小規模這個清洗\n\n07:18.356 --> 07:39.189\n你這樣就避免對人民飲用水安全你任何一點一絲小規模都不行嘛飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準讓人民判斷讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗然後跟前後的清洗日期把它對照去做一個比較做這兩件事情你不做的話人民會有公平接下來\n\n07:40.455 --> 08:00.761\n我還是強調要檢測我可以送水底任何人要來檢測我可以送水底沒問題這個沒問題對啦你就送去檢測嘛沒有水底嘛水底可以我可以承認有水底可以檢測嘛那就送去嘛好來接下來這個很重要齁我教你去台南最近鄉親一些農民都來陳情跟抗議你請一三碼\n\n08:02.902 --> 08:16.534\n經濟什麼貸團上個月去美國大肆採購簽了合約要買三千億台幣的農產品對不對不是三千億台幣的農產品是針對特定的品項的農產品黃小豆跟對啦黃小豆黃豆剩多少你知道在哪裡我們台灣的黃豆剩多少在哪裡\n\n08:29.793 --> 08:49.775\n我們台灣的黃豆的自給率只有0.02%大概是一千多公頃對我們嘉義跟台南農民那個是他的生計我跟你講啦我們種的黃豆都是實用的我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的這兩個是不一樣的\n\n08:51.261 --> 09:05.227\n對啊那我們的農民就說不管是用的還是農業那個飼料對我就發生憧憬你今天來懲罰你要怎麼懲罰我跟你講等一下還有更多台南跟嘉義的沒有關係我跟委員報告我們進來的讓他的飼料成本會降低\n\n09:06.372 --> 09:34.079\n飼料成本降低的話對我們農民反而是有幫助的種黃豆的是實用的嘛我們我們的是飼料飼料用跟實用的是不一樣的我只要送黃豆的一些農民都來等一下廷輝可能會講他們也都等下賴慧妍他們都會來問這個問題啦我要跟你講加拿大跟台南種黃豆的現在你要去買四年三千億台幣的這個黃小益進來我先跟你講美國賺我們\n\n09:36.087 --> 09:54.743\n台灣黃小玉的比例我給大家看黃豆我們54.4全部都是美國進的進了全世界的這個黃豆小麥78.1玉米73.3保定你那天去簽的時候你還講我們是未來4年黃小豆的這個增過的這個比例25%\n\n09:56.325 --> 10:14.073\n那表示量很多我跟委員報告這全部都是業者自己採購的他們是業者年度的需求年度的需求這個不是我們特別帶的他已經辦了15次了是不是減短尾巴我問兩個問題你說你帶去第一個你就希望說能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嗎我沒有這樣講喔\n\n10:20.976 --> 10:34.449\n那為什麼要去採購這個這個是年度的每兩年一次固定的聯合採購期盼對臺美關稅有幫助你有沒有希望他對臺美關稅談判有幫助我們當然希望他有幫助啊因為所有的作為是互得的嘛\n\n10:39.133 --> 10:58.282\n你去買那麼多衝擊到他們你到底關稅有沒有降衝擊在哪邊我覺得委員不要用形容詞我剛才說的我們進來的資料對農產品你具體的你對關稅你做了什麼幫助好的談判就是有給有拿對不對現在很清楚我們都去買了25%我跟委員報告我很理性問你兩個問題我覺得委員不要誤導方向要好的談判有給就有拿\n\n11:07.867 --> 11:26.504\n你買了這麼多有沒有降下來是一個第二個你對他們黃曉棟我告訴你所有的買賣不是對價的東西農民的衝擊你要怎麼幫他們我們業者買是因為業者的需求我們讓全民看我的問題是不是都是非常明確的部長全民會做公平的啦我現在只是提醒你你不要誤導就可以了為什麼要誤導我問你請問什麼地方誤導這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導\n\n11:30.387 --> 11:43.959\n第一個你要對關稅有什麼幫忙你清楚跟民眾講你可能可以降多少第二個我們農民來陳情你黃小益買比平常多25%有什麼衝擊不是農業部長該做的事嗎時間到了可是你不要搞定我只問那兩個那是農民要問你的問題\n\n11:50.283 --> 12:16.852\n齁你要去解答問題我相信全民有看得出我們的農業部長到底能幫農民的潛力我不瞭解委員是不是在開直播啦這個是委員會的質詢我很清楚的我很清楚的告訴你我們買進來的是對農民有幫助的飼料用的成本我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民是農民想要問你你是農業部長應該幫他們解決問題啊所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民請問什麼地方有不對\n\n12:19.249 --> 12:29.354\n我問你這兩個你去關稅要降多少這個跟關稅有什麼關係這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係這個關稅跟關稅有什麼關係我原動抗議喔憑什麼他講我的講的資訊是有問題的這個跟購買這個購買跟關稅有什麼問題有什麼關係這個購買不是對價關係你擴大對美的採購不就是要去降關稅嗎時間到我們休息五分鐘我們叫前面去公平叫前面去公平\n\n","segments":[{"start":19.071,"end":19.271,"text":"我們請陳部長"},{"start":31.034,"end":48.688,"text":"這位來保障人民飲用水的這個安全而且化解民眾的疑慮這個烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑這個到目前我看農業部的講法是用可能你們也沒有把握是不是"},{"start":49.853,"end":66.962,"text":"你們是希望大家不要亂猜可是又沒有把握什麼意思沒有 這不是有沒有把握的問題我第一個就是我們檢測出來的這些這個陰離子介面 活性介面劑本身大概0.03到0.07之間跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克"},{"start":69.013,"end":92.027,"text":"差太遠了 所以這個基本上是安全的第一個說明比較微量啦 可是現實出現嘛 那現在就是不要用可能他到底怎麼來 他只有兩種可能嘛一種就是清洗對不對一種是天然的嘛 我們先看 這個很重要是因為我們找到的是從你農水署定名烏山頭水庫的水質顏色 這是你自己自己檢查出來的嘛 對不對這個"},{"start":94.947,"end":117.352,"text":"吳山頭開始做的光電是在111年隔年開始檢測出來有就你講的是微量可是你看112年的4月份有檢測出來到了8月份又有7月份沒有怎麼會時有時沒有有時候有有時候沒有到了113年的時候3月份又檢測出來了9月份又檢測出來了到了114年4月份又檢測出來"},{"start":125.148,"end":152.976,"text":"就表示第一個 保定第一個在設的光電板之後的連續三年都有出現我跟維銘報告不能這樣下結論我們今天是要解決問題的你不要急著應變你這樣講會造成誤解我只要說一句話就是你如果認為這個0.03是因為清潔劑造成的那他大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度"},{"start":155.658,"end":175.569,"text":"重點不在用多少 重點有檢出嘛 那你要印證所以這是背景值 這一個非常重要的你要做一件事情 對民眾來講 你要化解他的疑慮對不對你是天然的或者是人工的 拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎你為什麼不去送檢測 你現在跟民眾講的是說來源是可能是水庫中的藻類一個代謝物"},{"start":178.39,"end":202.676,"text":"現在是理性物質科學對 我也理性 因為我學科學的我們檢測的這個陰離子活性界面劑就是有機物如果融於水以後會產生負離子所以負離子會跟其他的原類做結合所以它是由非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生的然後在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體它如果經過腐壞了以後所生產出的有機質"},{"start":203.576,"end":224.943,"text":"你現在在說理論嘛所以你提的就是可能可能是嘛所以我說今天要化解最簡單的就是拿去檢測博定先確定一個原則應該今天化解那個疑慮嘛不要用拆或者用你們講的可能它是可以檢測出來對不對那你就是今天公開承諾跟大家講趕快送去檢測檢測什麼"},{"start":227.198,"end":249.008,"text":"檢測你現在這個到底怎麼來啊到底是天然的還是你說的可能這個沒有辦法去因為它是一個所謂的陰離子那個活性介面劑它就是一個離子形態你不能說證明說喔它是它是天然的它是合成的這做不到天然的都檢測不出來喔那你怎麼敢講說是天然的現在還可以檢測啊來我跟你講第一個"},{"start":252.981,"end":272.809,"text":"來來我們有很多種檢測方式嘛我剛剛給你看的是你設了之後有出現雖然是微量有嘛對不對那你就拿去檢測檢測說這個他的來源到底是哪邊來的你不用可能第二個我們再更進一步來做一個如果說有第三個單位可以檢測的數字來來來否定還有一個方法啦還有一個方法你之前在"},{"start":273.973,"end":294.213,"text":"你送第三方去檢測嘛這就是最科學 物質科學的對不對這樣才可以化解人民的餘力我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的 天然的檢驗 這是一個第二個 你還有一個很重要的調一下它的清洗日期如果是 我剛剛你們自己的顯示每個月份都有嘛 對不對"},{"start":295.424,"end":324.557,"text":"如果剛好是那個月份是清洗的對的怎樣嘛如果跟清洗日期對不上來那就不是嘛我們一年檢測五次我們不因為齁在整個光電板的合約是水洗我們對水是檢測我現在就說你把你把這五次跟你清洗的幾次把它對起來就知道了嘛我們沒有說一定有跟沒有對起來的結果是什麼我們很理性的在討論我也非常理性的因為我學科學的我現在跟你講對不對我學自然科學的所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方"},{"start":325.157,"end":328.485,"text":"第二個 把清洗的志祺做個對照送第三方送什麼我說送什麼"},{"start":332.244,"end":355.853,"text":"那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的沒有就是隨地檢測啊那就是拿那個去送檢測啊不是你當然是沒有檢測出來我剛才說的陰離子活性介面機不可能檢測出說他是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑他沒辦法這樣做啊過去有檢測你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測我是檢測那個那個離子就是活性介面機這個東西你剛才說要我去檢測這個東西的來源"},{"start":359.674,"end":373.047,"text":"他的來源沒有 你怎麼講說是天然的你打自己嘴巴嗎我跟你講喔 絕對不是打自己嘴巴如果說你認為是清潔劑 那你證明是清潔劑我說你就要用12噸所以是12噸嘛你自己都檢測出來有喔"},{"start":380.888,"end":399.676,"text":"那你說是天然的檢測嗎我們歷史的檢測都是我只叫你說你自己檢查出來有對不對我不瞭解要檢查什麼我真的不知道要檢查什麼這個就是一種化學的一個結構的一個成分像離子的成分這樣子啊"},{"start":400.91,"end":415.562,"text":"你之前檢測有檢測嗎你說吧你現在疑問就是說你要送什麼去檢測嘛對不對你之前有檢測出來就表示那個檢測體拿去給第三方檢測嘛檢測什麼嘛檢測它的人工還是自然嘛就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊"},{"start":417.025,"end":437.492,"text":"你去看看所有鞋子專家現在都想說可以檢測出來為什麼你不行那如果檢測不出來憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的我說清洗的話你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度嘛那這個濃度是微量的嘛整個水庫用那麼多你怎麼知道不是一個小規模這個清洗"},{"start":438.356,"end":459.189,"text":"你這樣就避免對人民飲用水安全你任何一點一絲小規模都不行嘛飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準讓人民判斷讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗然後跟前後的清洗日期把它對照去做一個比較做這兩件事情你不做的話人民會有公平接下來"},{"start":460.455,"end":480.761,"text":"我還是強調要檢測我可以送水底任何人要來檢測我可以送水底沒問題這個沒問題對啦 你就送去檢測嘛沒有 水底嘛水底可以我可以承認有水底可以檢測嘛那就送去嘛好 來接下來這個很重要齁我教你去台南最近鄉親一些農民都來陳情跟抗議你請一三碼"},{"start":482.902,"end":496.534,"text":"經濟什麼 貸團上個月去美國大肆採購 簽了合約要買三千億台幣的農產品 對不對不是三千億台幣的農產品是針對特定的品項的農產品黃小豆跟 對啦黃小豆 黃豆剩多少 你知道在哪裡我們台灣的黃豆剩多少在哪裡"},{"start":509.793,"end":529.775,"text":"我們台灣的黃豆的自給率只有0.02%大概是一千多公頃對我們嘉義跟台南農民那個是他的生計我跟你講啦我們種的黃豆都是實用的我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的這兩個是不一樣的"},{"start":531.261,"end":545.227,"text":"對啊 那我們的農民就說不管是用的還是農業那個飼料對我就發生憧憬你今天來懲罰你要怎麼懲罰我跟你講等一下還有更多台南跟嘉義的沒有關係我跟委員報告我們進來的讓他的飼料成本會降低"},{"start":546.372,"end":574.079,"text":"飼料成本降低的話對我們農民反而是有幫助的種黃豆的是實用的嘛我們我們的是飼料飼料用跟實用的是不一樣的我只要送黃豆的一些農民都來等一下廷輝可能會講他們也都 等下賴慧妍他們都會來問這個問題啦我要跟你講加拿大跟台南種黃豆的現在你要去買四年三千億台幣的這個黃小益進來 我先跟你講美國賺我們"},{"start":576.087,"end":594.743,"text":"台灣黃小玉的比例 我給大家看黃豆我們54.4 全部都是美國進的進了全世界的這個黃豆小麥78.1玉米73.3保定你那天去簽的時候你還講我們是未來4年黃小豆的這個增過的這個比例25%"},{"start":596.325,"end":614.073,"text":"那表示量很多我跟委員報告這全部都是業者自己採購的他們是業者年度的需求年度的需求這個不是我們特別帶的他已經辦了15次了是不是減短尾巴我問兩個問題你說你帶去第一個你就希望說能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嗎我沒有這樣講喔"},{"start":620.976,"end":634.449,"text":"那為什麼要去採購這個這個是年度的每兩年一次固定的聯合採購期盼對臺美關稅有幫助你有沒有希望他對臺美關稅談判有幫助我們當然希望他有幫助啊因為所有的作為是互得的嘛"},{"start":639.133,"end":658.282,"text":"你去買那麼多衝擊到他們你到底關稅有沒有降衝擊在哪邊我覺得委員不要用形容詞我剛才說的我們進來的資料對農產品你具體的你對關稅你做了什麼幫助好的談判就是有給有拿對不對現在很清楚我們都去買了25%我跟委員報告我很理性問你兩個問題我覺得委員不要誤導方向要好的談判有給就有拿"},{"start":667.867,"end":686.504,"text":"你買了這麼多有沒有降下來是一個第二個你對他們 黃曉棟我告訴你所有的買賣不是對價的東西農民的衝擊你要怎麼幫他們我們業者買是因為業者的需求我們讓全民看我的問題是不是都是非常明確的部長 全民會做公平的啦我現在只是提醒你你不要誤導就可以了為什麼要誤導我問你請問什麼地方誤導這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導"},{"start":690.387,"end":703.959,"text":"第一個你要對關稅有什麼幫忙你清楚跟民眾講你可能可以降多少第二個我們農民來陳情你黃小益買比平常多25%有什麼衝擊不是農業部長該做的事嗎時間到了可是你不要搞定我只問那兩個那是農民要問你的問題"},{"start":710.283,"end":736.852,"text":"齁 你要去解答問題我相信全民有看得出我們的農業部長到底能幫農民的潛力我不瞭解委員是不是在開直播啦這個是委員會的質詢我很清楚的我很清楚的告訴你我們買進來的是對農民有幫助的飼料用的成本我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民是農民想要問你你是農業部長應該幫他們解決問題啊所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民請問什麼地方有不對"},{"start":739.249,"end":749.354,"text":"我問你這兩個 你去關稅要降多少這個跟關稅有什麼關係這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係這個關稅跟關稅有什麼關係我原動抗議喔憑什麼他講我的 講的資訊是有問題的這個跟購買這個購買跟關稅有什麼問題有什麼關係這個購買不是對價關係你擴大對美的採購不就是要去降關稅嗎時間到 我們休息五分鐘我們叫前面去公平 叫前面去公平"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時30分）謝謝主席，請陳部長。"],["主席：我們請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們一起來保障人民飲用水的安全，化解民眾的疑慮。烏山頭水庫檢測出陰離子介面活性劑，目前我看農業部的講法是用「可能」，你們也沒有把握，是不是？你們希望大家不要亂猜，可是又沒有把握，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這不是有沒有把握的問題，我們檢測出來的陰離子介面活性介面劑大概在0.03到0.07之間，跟我們的灌溉水質標準5毫克差太遠了，所以這基本上是安全的，這是第一個說明。"],["張委員啓楷：比較微量啦！可是它確實出現了，現在不要用「可能」，它到底怎麼來的？有兩種可能嘛，一種就是清洗，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：一種是天然的……"],["張委員啓楷：來，我們先來看，這個很重要的是，我們從農水署的烏山頭水庫水質檢測找到資料，這是你們自己檢查出來的，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：烏山頭開始設光電是在111年，隔年開始檢測出來，就如你講的是微量，可是112年的4月份有檢測出來，到了8月份又有，7月份沒有，有時有，有時沒有，到了113年3月份又檢測出來了，9月份又檢測出來了，到了114年4月份又檢測出來。部長，第一個，這就表示在設了光電板之後的連續3年都有出現，民眾……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，不能這樣下結論……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我說，部長，我們今天是要解決問題的，你不要急著硬辯，我們今天要……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，你這樣講會造成誤解，我只要說一句話，你如果認為這個0.03是清潔劑造成的，那它大概要用12噸的清潔劑才能洗出這個濃度。"],["張委員啓楷：重點不在用多少，重點是有檢出嘛！你要印證……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，這是非常重要的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你要做一件事情，對民眾來講，你要化解他們的疑慮，對不對？是天然的或者是人工的，拿去檢測不就可以出來了嗎？你為什麼不去做檢測？你現在跟民眾講，來源可能是水庫中的藻類、代謝物，那不就變成……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在是理性、務實科學，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我也理性，因為我學科學的，我們檢測的陰離子活性介面劑就是有機物溶於水以後會產生負離子，所以負離子會跟其他的鹽類做結合，非常非常多的有機物都有可能產生，在自然界裡面最主要是動物或植物的屍體腐壞以後產出的有機質……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在在講理論，所以你提的這個「可能」……"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是理論，這是實際。"],["張委員啓楷：「可能」是嘛！所以我說，今天要化解這個疑慮，最簡單就是拿去檢測，部長，現在最簡單的……"],["陳部長駿季：檢測什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：部長，先確定一個原則，今天要化解這個疑慮嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要用猜或者用你講的「可能」，它是可以檢測出來的，對不對？你今天就公開承諾、跟大家講，趕快送去檢測。"],["陳部長駿季：檢測什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：檢測這個到底怎麼來的，到底是天然的還是你說的「可能」？"],["陳部長駿季：這個沒有辦法，因為它是陰離子活性介面劑，它就是一個離子形態，你不能證明它是天然還是合成的，這個做不到。"],["張委員啓楷：連來源檢測不出來喔？那你怎麼敢講說它是天然的？部長，現在還是可以檢測啊！來，我跟你講，第一個，有很多種檢測方式嘛，我剛剛給你看的資料，你們測了之後有出現，雖然是微量，但還是有嘛，對不對？那你就拿去檢測，檢測它的來源到底是從哪邊來的，你不要用「可能」。第二個，我們再更進一步來做一個……"],["陳部長駿季：如果有第三方可以檢測出這個……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，還有一個方法，你之前在……你送第三方去檢測嘛！現在是務實科學，這樣才能夠化解人民的疑慮，我們也不要說一定是人工或者是自然的、天然的，檢驗是第一個。第二個，還有一個很重要的，調一下清洗日期，如果是我剛剛……你們自己的資料顯示，每個月份都有嘛，對不對？如果剛好是那個月份清洗的，比對就知道了，如果跟清洗日期對不上來，那就不是嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們一年檢測5次，因為整個光電板的合約是水洗，我們對水質檢測……"],["張委員啓楷：對，我現在就是說你把這5次跟你清洗了幾次對起來就知道了嘛，我沒有說一定有跟沒有……"],["陳部長駿季：對起來的結果是什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：我現在要你做的……部長，我們很理性的在討論。"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！我也非常理性的，因為我是學科學的。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我先跟你講……"],["陳部長駿季：我學自然科學的……"],["張委員啓楷：對！所以第一個我剛剛講送第三方；第二個把清洗的日期做個對照……"],["陳部長駿季：送第三方，送什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：我這樣要求不過分……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我說送什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：那你們之前怎麼檢測出來的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，就是隨機檢測啊！"],["張委員啓楷：那就是拿那個去送檢測，不是嗎？你檢測出來是……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我剛剛說的陰離子活性界面成分不可能檢測出它是某一個動物自然產生的或者是清潔劑，它沒辦法這樣做啊！"],["張委員啓楷：過去有檢測，你意思是以後你沒辦法檢測，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我是檢測到那個離子，就是活性界面劑這個東西，你剛剛說要我去檢測這個東西的來源……"],["張委員啓楷：它的來源沒有，你怎麼講說是天然的？你不是打自己嘴巴嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟你講，絕對不是打自己嘴巴，如果你認為是清潔劑，你要證明是清潔劑，我說你就要用12噸……"],["張委員啓楷：我沒有說它一定是天然或人為……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所以是12噸嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：所以我叫你送第三方去檢測清楚……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得……"],["張委員啓楷：你自己都檢測出來有，那你說是天然的，那就去檢測嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我們歷次的檢測都是合於標準……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你連這麼基本的問題都要拗……"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有拗。"],["張委員啓楷：我只是叫你自己檢查出來有，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：我不了解要檢查什麼？我真的不知道要檢查什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：你自己檢查出來有的是什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：這個就是一種化學結構的成分，像離子的成分這樣子啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你之前自己檢測出有。"],["陳部長駿季：那我說了……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在疑問點是你要送什麼去檢測嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你之前有檢測出來，就表示那個檢測體再拿去給第三方檢測嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：檢測什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：檢測到底是人工還是自然？"],["陳部長駿季：就檢測不出來人工或天然的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你去看看所有學者專家，現在都講可以檢測出來，為什麼你不行？"],["陳部長駿季：檢測什麼？"],["張委員啓楷：如果檢測不出來，憑什麼農業部長跟大家講不是清洗的時候出現的？"],["陳部長駿季：我說清洗的話，你就要用12噸的清潔劑才能造成這樣的濃度，那這個濃度是微量的……"],["張委員啓楷：你說的是整個水庫用那麼多，你怎麼知道不是一個小規模的清洗？對人民一定要飲用水安全，任何一點一絲，小規模都不行嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：我告訴你，飲用水的標準就是回到飲用水的標準……"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！部長，我在解決問題，我不要跟你爭辯這個，讓人民判斷是不是應該送到第三方去檢驗，然後跟前後的清洗日期，把它對照做一個比較。做這兩件事情，你不做的話，人民會有公評。接下來……"],["陳部長駿季：我還是強調，要檢測我可以送水體，任何人要來檢測，我可以送水體，這個沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！你就送去檢測嘛！"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我可以把水體送第三方。"],["張委員啓楷：你承認有水體可以檢測，那就送去嘛！","接下來這個很重要，嘉義跟臺南最近的鄉親、一些農民都來陳情跟抗議，你前一陣子帶團，上個月去美國大肆採購，簽合約要買3,000億臺幣的農產品，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：不是3,000億臺幣的農產品……"],["張委員啓楷：4年3,000億嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：是針對特定品項的農產品。"],["張委員啓楷：對，黃小玉，你知道黃豆種最多的在哪嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：啊？"],["張委員啓楷：你知道臺灣黃豆種最多的地方在哪嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：臺灣黃豆的自給率只有0.02%，大概是一千多公頃。"],["張委員啓楷：在你的腦袋裡面0.02%好像小，對我們嘉義跟臺南農民，哇！那個是他的生計，我跟你講啦……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們種的黃豆都是食用的，我們進來的黃豆都是做飼料用的，這兩個是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，農民就說不管是食用的還是飼料，對我們就發生衝擊，他們現在來陳情，你要怎麼講？我跟你講，等一下還有更多臺南跟嘉義的立委會來問你這個問題……"],["陳部長駿季：沒關係，我跟委員報告，我們進來的部分，讓他的飼料成本會降低，飼料成本降低的話，對我們農民反而是有幫助的。"],["張委員啓楷：那種黃豆的人要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們農民種的黃豆是食用的，我們採購的是飼料用，跟食用的是不一樣的。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道種黃豆的一些農民都來陳情，等一下亭妃可能也會說，等一下賴惠員他們都會問這個問題。我跟你說嘉義跟臺南種黃豆的，現在你要去買4年3,000億臺幣的黃小玉進來，我先跟你說，美國占我們臺灣黃小玉的比例，我給大家看一下，我們黃豆54.4%全部都是美國進口的，進了全世界的黃豆，小麥78.1%、玉米73.3%。部長，你那天去簽約的時候，你還講我們未來4年黃小玉增購的比例是25%，表示量很多，我現在提醒……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這全部都是業者自己採購的，他們是業者年度的需求……"],["張委員啓楷：你帶著他們去的嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：這個不是我們特別帶的，它已經辦了15次了。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，對啦，今年增加最多……"],["主席：是不是簡短收尾？"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉！我問兩個問題，你說你帶去……第一個，你就希望能夠對我們的關稅談判有利嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我沒有這樣講喔！"],["張委員啓楷：那為什麼要去採購這個？"],["陳部長駿季：這個是年度的，每兩年一次固定的聯合採購，是業者組團去的……"],["張委員啓楷：期盼對臺美關稅有幫助……"],["陳部長駿季：它每兩年都一次……"],["張委員啓楷：你沒有希望它對臺美關稅談判有幫助？不然帶隊出去做什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我們當然希望它有幫助啊！"],["張委員啓楷：有喔！"],["陳部長駿季：因為所有的作為都是互助的嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：所以農民叫我問你嘛，你去買那麼多卻衝擊到他們，那你到底關稅有沒有降？"],["陳部長駿季：我說衝擊在哪邊？我覺得委員不要用形容詞，我剛才說的，我們進來的飼料對農產品……"],["張委員啓楷：我們具體的問你，你對關稅做了什麼幫助？好的談判就是有給有拿，對不對？現在很清楚我們都去買了25%嘛……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先問你兩個問題，這也是農民要問的……"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得委員不要誤導方向。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你買的到底要回來什麼？"],["主席：我們是不是……"],["張委員啓楷：好的談判有給就有拿，你買這麼多，關稅有沒有降下來？這是第一個。"],["主席：沒有完成的，我們是不是書面來回答？"],["陳部長駿季：我剛剛說了所有的買賣不是對價的……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，對於黃小玉造成農民的衝擊，你要怎麼幫他們？"],["陳部長駿季：我們業者會買，是因為業者的需求，委員不要誤導。"],["張委員啓楷：好，讓全民看，我的問題是不是都是非常明確的？部長，全民會做公評的啦！我現在只是提醒你……"],["陳部長駿季：你不要誤導就可以了。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼誤導？"],["陳部長駿季：農產品我們進來的是飼料。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，請問什麼地方誤導？這兩個問題有什麼地方誤導？第一個，你要對關稅有什麼幫忙，你清楚跟民眾講，你可能可以降多少？"],["主席：我們時間到了。"],["陳部長駿季：這是年度的採購……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我們農民來陳情，黃小玉買的比平常多25%，有什麼衝擊？這不是農業部長該做的事嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這不是額外的採購，這是年度的採購、這是業者自己發的……"],["主席：我們時間到了，張啓楷委員時間到了，我們請……時間到了！"],["張委員啓楷：時間到了，部長，我只是問兩個農民要問你的問題，你要去解答問題，我相信全民有看出來，我們的農業部長到底有沒有幫農民的權益在爭取。"],["主席：發言時間到了。"],["陳部長駿季：我不了解委員是不是在開直播啦！這是委員會的質詢，我很清楚的告訴你……"],["張委員啓楷：在直播沒錯阿！這個是農民要問的問題，是不是直播……"],["陳部長駿季：我們買進來的是對減少農民成本有幫助的飼料用的。"],["主席：時間到了，張啓楷委員時間到了。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天問你的問題都是照顧我們農民，是農民想要問你，你是農業部長，應該要幫他們解決問題。"],["主席：對不起，我們請部長用書面來回答。"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以你要用正確的資訊傳遞給農民，不是用曲解的意思去鼓動農民。"],["張委員啓楷：請問什麼地方有不對？"],["主席：好，時間到了。"],["張委員啓楷：我問你這兩個問題，第一個，你關稅會降多少？第二個，你有的衝擊，你要怎麼保護他們？這哪邊有錯誤？"],["陳部長駿季：這個跟關稅有什麼關係？購買跟關稅有什麼關係？"],["主席：張啓楷委員時間到了。"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我嚴重抗議，憑什麼他講我講的資訊是有問題的？"],["主席：時間到了！"],["陳部長駿季：這個購買跟關稅有什麼關係？這個購買不是對價關係。"],["主席：好，時間到。"],["張委員啓楷：擴大對美的採購不就是為了要去降關稅嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：這是年度的採購……"],["主席：時間到，我們休息5分鐘。"],["張委員啓楷：我們讓全民去公評！","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在開始開會。","請謝衣鳯委員質詢，謝謝。不好意思，衣鳯。","大家坐好，各單位坐好。","現在請謝衣鳯委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-19-3","speakers":["陳亭妃","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","邱志偉","蔡易餘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","呂玉玲","賴惠員","郭昱晴","王育敏","黃國昌","郭國文","張雅琳","鍾佳濱","徐富癸","林俊憲"],"page_start":103,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請農業部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00004"}}}