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{\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 506.457, \"end\": 506.617, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 506.617, \"end\": 506.858, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"洋\", \"start\": 506.858, \"end\": 506.878, \"score\": 0.748}]}, {\"start\": 507.318, \"end\": 531.001, \"text\": \"或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 507.318, \"end\": 507.438, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 507.438, \"end\": 507.578, \"score\": 0.78}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 507.578, \"end\": 507.919, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 507.919, \"end\": 507.939, \"score\": 0.023}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 507.939, \"end\": 508.099, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"談\"}, {\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 508.099, \"end\": 508.659, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 508.659, \"end\": 509.04, \"score\": 0.841}, 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\"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 758.625, \"end\": 758.805, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"班\", \"start\": 758.805, \"end\": 758.965, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 758.965, \"end\": 759.305, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 759.305, \"end\": 759.326, \"score\": 0.079}]}, {\"start\": 760.1, \"end\": 787.478, \"text\": \"但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過 三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過 五個大過 十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 760.1, \"end\": 760.24, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 760.24, \"end\": 760.36, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 760.36, \"end\": 760.56, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"既\", \"start\": 760.56, \"end\": 760.68, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 760.68, \"end\": 760.861, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 760.861, \"end\": 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\"那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 788.715, \"end\": 788.875, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 788.875, \"end\": 789.135, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 789.135, \"end\": 789.375, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 789.375, \"end\": 789.595, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 789.595, \"end\": 790.156, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"除\", \"start\": 790.156, \"end\": 790.256, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 790.256, \"end\": 790.616, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 790.616, \"end\": 791.316, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"被\", \"start\": 791.316, \"end\": 791.856, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"記\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 791.856, \"end\": 792.016, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 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\"start\": 808.604, \"end\": 808.624, \"score\": 0.59}]}, {\"start\": 809.304, \"end\": 821.511, \"text\": \"然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 809.304, \"end\": 809.444, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 809.444, \"end\": 809.964, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 809.964, \"end\": 810.605, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"成\", \"start\": 810.605, \"end\": 810.765, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 810.765, \"end\": 810.905, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 810.905, \"end\": 811.025, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 811.025, \"end\": 811.185, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 811.185, \"end\": 811.445, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"介\", \"start\": 811.445, \"end\": 811.665, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"教\", \"start\": 811.665, \"end\": 811.886, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"育\", \"start\": 811.886, \"end\": 812.766, 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 1031.267, \"end\": 1031.287, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1031.287, \"end\": 1032.307, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1032.307, \"end\": 1032.387, \"score\": 0.753}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1032.387, \"end\": 1033.088, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 1033.088, \"end\": 1033.208, \"score\": 0.826}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 1033.208, \"end\": 1033.248, \"score\": 0.489}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 1033.248, \"end\": 1033.548, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1033.548, \"end\": 1033.728, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 1033.728, \"end\": 1033.748, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"圓\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,089 --> 00:00:00,389\n請教育部長謝謝請鄭部長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:18,977 --> 00:00:45,906\n部長好我想來跟你討論一下缺老師問題這個問題其實之前也都問過您記得八月的時候那時候我有提出說我們應該來好好的檢討一下校事會議然後有請您去跟基層老師座談也非常感謝後來我就發現八月的時候你到我們板橋來來辦了一場跟基層老師座談會代表你也是說到做到這一點要給你肯定但是就是說我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後對於校事會議\n\n3\n00:00:46,906 --> 00:01:07,441\n你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎基本上大概我們從北中南這一個不僅老師當然包含校長我們家長我們事實上也都有一些座談那大概我們現在發現原來的校士會本來他是希望解決那些不適合教師來處理不適合教師透過\n\n4\n00:01:09,648 --> 00:01:33,929\n這個外聘的這些公正的委員來協助處理但是學校實際在運作的時候我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議這個是不對的所以我們希望以後是真正的不是任教師才走這個流程其他的應該是從學校的一個輔導這個班級經營的真人或者老師的一個提醒或者甚至有一些\n\n5\n00:01:34,850 --> 00:01:59,549\n這一個教師的一些行為預約的這些專業的一個承諾但是不至於進入到教師會議這一個可能進考機考核就是說這一個先分流那第二個就是不具名的因為我們從這一年來所有的data裡面看走入到不適合老師裡面那26位的老師都是具名指控的也就是說大部分\n\n6\n00:02:00,330 --> 00:02:28,753\n沒有進入到或者不成立的都是不具名的所以我們希望減少這個爛數能夠減少這個不必要去造成學校真正的一個運作上的困擾我想這個部分我們也會把他在未來修正的方向也會把他拉平好那個接下來我們就來具體討論一下謝謝你發現的問題而且也願意要解決因為校師會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的他當然有他的功能存在但是後來已經走到爛數了是\n\n7\n00:02:29,654 --> 00:02:32,316\n我們可以看幾個數據這我跟你們教一步要的你看113年4月17號到114年5月30號校士會議總共開了1372次總共有1124個老師被調查其中382個是發現根本沒這回事\n\n8\n00:02:48,184 --> 00:03:16,471\n就結案了然後最後停聘只有六個啊停聘率大概是1.9可見這中天有多少爛數多少爛數那這個爛數我們現在看到只是數字而已啊可是對老師來說是一個煎熬他就莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉的而且是一個主觀的評論說這個老師孟茂老師很兇他就要進入到校事會議然後被調查二到四個月正常來講校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查\n\n9\n00:03:20,329 --> 00:03:31,784\n兩個月可以延長一個月再加一個月對就是最多四個月嘛對所有大概大家都被大概就是要被煎熬四個月那我有跟你們平均調查期間可是你們沒有統計啦\n\n10\n00:03:32,867 --> 00:03:59,374\n基本上校食會議你應該要讓他調查時間越短越好啊你看如果一個老師他被調查四個月結果發現不好意思你是冤枉的那不是開玩笑嗎這老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響四個月所以你當然時間要越短越好啊然後還有一個校食會議一個非常不合理的一個地方是一般來說如果有人要檢舉那要證明他有罪嘛\n\n11\n00:04:00,674 --> 00:04:27,812\n要具體的證據人事物結果常常老師莫名其妙被檢舉以後是老師要自證無罪我就舉一個例子有一個網紅老師他在網路上常常發表一些跟教育有關的文章因為寫得非常好所以非常多人去閱讀結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉說他是不是有利用他的網紅身份收業配結果他又被進入校事會議他要去證明說我沒有收業配\n\n12\n00:04:28,940 --> 00:04:58,146\n這不是已經反過來了嗎是不是應該檢舉他的人應該要說他收業配啊怎麼會他來證明自己沒有收業配呢這也是我們希望說那些沒有負責不具名的我們就不再介紹所以校士會議真的我覺得你初步了解的這個問題嚴重性我覺得還要更進一步的了解到底他在執行上面要怎麼做到對老師更尊重而且不要影響到老師教學那校會現在部長你現在講的應該是要修這一條對不對我們直接看\n\n13\n00:04:58,871 --> 00:05:15,614\n就是在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘的或資檢辦法的第九條的第三點對不對你現在要修這條嗎就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名或足以識別其身份資訊\n\n14\n00:05:17,273 --> 00:05:37,968\n然後後面還有一個但書但檢舉內容包括行為人你說這第三點整個修掉是不是但書修掉所以意思就是說以後只要是匿名檢舉通通依據依蓋不受理只要匿名檢舉就依蓋不受理確定了嗎那這個大概什麼時候會修\n\n15\n00:05:39,738 --> 00:06:07,580\n我們在年底之前會年底那這段時間您現在已經發現問題而且很嚴重那在這段時間到年底我們有初步的一些一些這個調整那當然目前也在徵詢各地方在實際上這個整個運作裡面怎麼樣未來能夠更順暢沒有因為我看這個問題很嚴重那您也願意修啦這要給你肯定就是說以後匿名就不受理但是那這個空窗期還要二到三個月嘛\n\n16\n00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:21,439\n那是不是直接就不受理就好不然這裡二三個月你也發現有問題可是匿名的照樣受理那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎或者是說你趕快修嘛\n\n17\n00:06:22,625 --> 00:06:38,058\n如果說只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎先跟委員報告因為這整個委員剛剛的分流還有這個受理不受理它是整套嘛所以委員指導的說中間能不能夠先有趕快做一些處理10月1號我們就先發了一個行政的要求我們會後給委員\n\n18\n00:06:40,220 --> 00:07:01,870\n所以要求就是說從現在開始如果是匿名的就不受理嗎因為這個是法條這一部分的話學校都知道會嚴謹的執行但是分流那一塊還有相關的執行的要項我們11月1號有發一個文那是分流啦我現在講的是匿名我說匿名也會包含說學校在運用第九條的時候的一些想法他們有做一張表\n\n19\n00:07:02,676 --> 00:07:17,036\n好啦那就朝這個朝這個方向好不好好謝謝第二個吼崔老師其實還有一個問題那個也跟部長反映一下現在因為108課綱實施以後其實老師的壓力都變大了以前他們有教材嗎\n\n20\n00:07:17,937 --> 00:07:36,972\n現在108課綱是要求老師要編教台嘛有些課程對不對然後另外就是還有要叫報告嘛很多額外的工作要做但是他們雖然說壓力提高可是相關的待遇福利並沒有相對也提升啦我這邊提一個建議啦就是能不能啊\n\n21\n00:07:38,814 --> 00:08:00,325\n針對高中國中跟國小的老師通通可以減基本的重點授課時數因為高中現在是16堂國中是18堂小學是20堂一律就減兩個小時就是高中是14小時國中16小時小學是18個小時讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課這樣有機會嗎\n\n22\n00:08:04,076 --> 00:08:26,878\n感謝委員這當然也是書寫老師教學壓力的一個方式因為它也涉及到地方就是說我們這個物理編定的地方它也有地方的一些規範另外事實上隨著108課綱裡邊我們也期待也鼓勵大學因為確實有一些老師他本來的專業並沒有譬如說以海洋\n\n23\n00:08:27,318 --> 00:08:51,001\n或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費\n\n24\n00:08:52,202 --> 00:09:10,857\n因為如果說高中譬如說16個小時他減2個小時他就剩14個小時你可能會考慮到說那他多出來課誰要教對吧那其實你就直接給他超終點津貼就好了嘛那其實我幫你算過了啦大概這樣也差不了多少錢啦可能一個老師就一個月就多大概三四千塊台北市算過齁\n\n25\n00:09:12,219 --> 00:09:26,514\n現在老師也覺得他的超充鐵已經不勝負荷了那也可以再增嘛如果你有錢我還沒講完台北市有算過如果是這樣子運作的話他大概一年是增加兩億左右所以全國大概就是增加二三十億\n\n26\n00:09:27,415 --> 00:09:50,364\n你只要一年編二三十億全國的老師他可以減兩個小時的終點那如果他超終點的話大概就是全國就增加二十幾億剛才我一直在提台北市以台北市的一個財政部其實我覺得不不不等一下我還沒講完我還沒有講完我是希望教育部可以統一做教育部直接變預算因為你們之前送來的特別預算\n\n27\n00:09:51,284 --> 00:10:08,501\n國家是任性的你覺得高教任性有問題所以你就編了兩百億高教就編了兩百億給高教我認為國教也同等重要我們是支持你編預算給高教但你高教都可以編兩百億國教我這邊幫你算過大概二三十億你說對不起這個錢我沒有\n\n28\n00:10:10,219 --> 00:10:24,368\n那真的就是我覺得我要替國教這些老師感到委屈啦也吃醋啦部長為什麼你好像對高教就比較重視在特別預算的時候我言很清楚我本身也是小學老師對嘛所以不能忘本嘛部長而且我講這個東西我跟你講現在因為\n\n29\n00:10:28,931 --> 00:10:57,808\n就像上次跟你讲的譬如说现在缺军人所以我们提升军人的待遇同样的缺老师当然在待遇上面也许没有办法达到他们的真正的百分之百期待但是这是一种尊重所以我提出这样的要求也许你第一次听或怎么样你研议一下好不好20亿相较于你给高教200亿其实不赚多但是可以让老师们获得一定的尊重基本上我其实对国民教育就是说教育部在另一个最基本的一个\n\n30\n00:10:58,969 --> 00:11:20,723\n規範也同時鼓勵我們各地方縣市政府因地制以包含財政怎麼樣有一個對國民教育包含老實的一個支持好啦那個部長因為推給地方政府啦您就肩膀挑起來啦因為這個是統一的政策啦你先研究一下這統一的政策嘛委員所講我聽進去我們也願意來研議但是我也希望\n\n31\n00:11:21,483 --> 00:11:42,717\n地方政府可以啊那你就找地方政府一起來討論嘛但總是要有人起頭跟帶頭當領頭羊嘛而且這個事情如果你研議之後你發現值得做那大家再來討論裁員的問題嘛中央覺得20億對老師好我願意花有Guts我們給你肯定啊如果想說哎呀高教我比較願意支持給200億沒問題但是國教20億我覺得我很捨不得那我們就來討論嘛對不對好不好\n\n32\n00:11:51,543 --> 00:12:10,341\n但是委員局不要跟我這麼講那你一個月內好不好一個月內不要跟我講說我對國教不重視那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下這個是一個月內第三個議題就是我們針對校園的安全我一直非常關心部長您應該也知道也非常謝謝您\n\n33\n00:12:11,542 --> 00:12:39,326\n在去年的時候給了每個學校一個校安人員國中校安人員我跟很多國中問過其實他們都覺得即便是只有一個非常少但是那一位也都扮演很重要的角色我還要再跟你今年能不能再多一個國中好不好再一個研議因為今天第一次這個會第一次質詢我都先把議題拋出來對能夠再一個我的目標其實不是只有一個我的目標是比照高中六班一個啦\n\n34\n00:12:40,100 --> 00:13:07,478\n但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過五個大過十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎\n\n35\n00:13:08,715 --> 00:13:28,624\n那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作\n\n36\n00:13:29,304 --> 00:13:41,511\n然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的\n\n37\n00:13:42,830 --> 00:14:00,926\n基金會或協會跟他合作成立中介教育組織讓他們獲得其他的中介的教育那我覺得你可以去找人本基金會啦因為人本基金會以人為本愛的教育我相信他們可以提供一個不錯的中介教育組織好不好你這個部分你也研究一下\n\n38\n00:14:02,047 --> 00:14:13,353\n除了人本基金會是我建議你可以找其他的單位中介組織來解決這個問題還有一件事情現在教師人員有身心調試假三天\n\n39\n00:14:15,135 --> 00:14:41,841\n主席再一下三天身心調適假有吧這個是你們的宣傳說增訂的身心調適假所以現在教師看起來他最多可以請七天的病假可以請七天的試假又最多可以請三天的身心調適假還可以請三天的家庭照顧假對吧這是說他們最多可以請的假但是部長七加七加三加三等於幾\n\n40\n00:14:43,393 --> 00:15:05,924\n在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20對吧我說數學上7加7加3加3是不是等於20沒錯數學啦我問你數學沒錯吧但是7天的病假加7天的試假加3天的身心調試假再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7呀\n\n41\n00:15:07,878 --> 00:15:16,025\n他們這全部都是你可以請沒關係可是不能超過七天沒有啦這個對不對你都併入市併價計算嘛\n\n42\n00:15:16,994 --> 00:15:39,174\n那对于一个老师而言教育部给我三天的身心调治假好高兴我多三天假然后一般的人也以为说老师好棒喔我还没讲完其他人也觉得说老师好棒喔七天是病假之外又多了三天的身心调治假还有三天的家庭照顾假\n\n43\n00:15:39,955 --> 00:15:52,013\n但大家不知道的是你请了三天的家庭照顾假或你请了三天的身心调治假你嗜病假就剩四天这是一种朝三暮四的概念\n\n44\n00:15:53,717 --> 00:16:15,567\n所以部長不要為德不足啦如果你認為身心調適假那麼的重要那個考試院之前說公務人員可以請這個身心調適假配合賴總統健康台灣的願景啊哇大家都羨慕的不得了不好意思你請身心調適假你士兵假就少三天所以如果真的認為這個東西那麼重要的話應該要用外加啦你們同不同意\n\n45\n00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:34,065\n我們繼續努力不是不是努力啦同不同意因為你看到主席站起來你就想說是不是隨便講兩句話我就離開沒有沒有我們要問一個比較具體的答案部長我想我們當然\n\n46\n00:16:35,632 --> 00:16:59,049\n完全了解老師的一個期待那當然從整個一個政府部門公部門他整體的一個不同的一個職業類別上的一些考量所以我們對老師的一個身心調適叫過去他用試駕他是要自付代理代課費那我們這邊教育部是來支持你幫他付代課費這我曉得啦我現在講的是駕有幾天的問題嘛\n\n47\n00:17:00,984 --> 00:17:13,748\n對不對好不好部長演繹因為這個不注意站起來但是我希望真的演繹是不是可以給我們一個說明好不好可以嗎可以啊好謝謝謝謝月圓\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t389\t請教育部長 謝謝請鄭部長委員好\n18977\t45906\t部長好我想來跟你討論一下缺老師問題這個問題其實之前也都問過您記得八月的時候那時候我有提出說我們應該來好好的檢討一下校事會議然後有請您去跟基層老師座談也非常感謝後來我就發現八月的時候你到我們板橋來來辦了一場跟基層老師座談會代表你也是說到做到這一點要給你肯定但是就是說我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後對於校事會議\n46906\t67441\t你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎基本上大概我們從北中南這一個不僅老師當然包含校長我們家長我們事實上也都有一些座談那大概我們現在發現原來的校士會本來他是希望解決那些不適合教師來處理不適合教師透過\n69648\t93929\t這個外聘的這些公正的委員來協助處理但是學校實際在運作的時候我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議這個是不對的所以我們希望以後是真正的不是任教師才走這個流程其他的應該是從學校的一個輔導這個班級經營的真人或者老師的一個提醒或者甚至有一些\n94850\t119549\t這一個教師的一些行為預約的這些專業的一個承諾但是不至於進入到教師會議這一個可能進考機考核就是說這一個先分流那第二個就是不具名的因為我們從這一年來所有的data裡面看走入到不適合老師裡面那26位的老師都是具名指控的也就是說大部分\n120330\t148753\t沒有進入到或者不成立的都是不具名的所以我們希望減少這個爛數能夠減少這個不必要去造成學校真正的一個運作上的困擾我想這個部分我們也會把他在未來修正的方向也會把他拉平好 那個接下來我們就來具體討論一下謝謝你發現的問題而且也願意要解決因為校師會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的他當然有他的功能存在但是後來已經走到爛數了是\n149654\t152316\t我們可以看幾個數據這我跟你們教一步要的你看113年4月17號到114年5月30號校士會議總共開了1372次總共有1124個老師被調查其中382個是發現根本沒這回事\n168184\t196471\t就結案了然後最後停聘只有六個啊停聘率大概是1.9可見這中天有多少爛數多少爛數那這個爛數我們現在看到只是數字而已啊可是對老師來說是一個煎熬他就莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉的而且是一個主觀的評論說這個老師 孟茂老師很兇他就要進入到校事會議然後被調查二到四個月正常來講校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查\n200329\t211784\t兩個月可以延長一個月再加一個月對 就是最多四個月嘛對 所有大概大家都被大概就是要被煎熬四個月那我有跟你們平均調查期間可是你們沒有統計啦\n212867\t239374\t基本上校食會議你應該要讓他調查時間越短越好啊你看如果一個老師他被調查四個月結果發現不好意思你是冤枉的那不是開玩笑嗎這老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響四個月所以你當然時間要越短越好啊然後還有一個校食會議一個非常不合理的一個地方是一般來說如果有人要檢舉那要證明他有罪嘛\n240674\t267812\t要具體的證據人事物結果常常老師莫名其妙被檢舉以後是老師要自證無罪我就舉一個例子有一個網紅老師他在網路上常常發表一些跟教育有關的文章因為寫得非常好所以非常多人去閱讀結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉說他是不是有利用他的網紅身份收業配結果他又被進入校事會議他要去證明說我沒有收業配\n268940\t298146\t這不是已經反過來了嗎是不是應該檢舉他的人應該要說他收業配啊怎麼會他來證明自己沒有收業配呢這也是我們希望說那些沒有負責不具名的我們就不再介紹所以校士會議真的我覺得你初步了解的這個問題嚴重性我覺得還要更進一步的了解到底他在執行上面要怎麼做到對老師更尊重而且不要影響到老師教學那校會現在部長你現在講的應該是要修這一條對不對我們直接看\n298871\t315614\t就是在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘的或資檢辦法的第九條的第三點對不對你現在要修這條嗎就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名或足以識別其身份資訊\n317273\t337968\t然後後面還有一個但書但檢舉內容包括行為人你說這第三點整個修掉是不是但書修掉所以意思就是說以後只要是匿名檢舉通通依據依蓋不受理只要匿名檢舉就依蓋不受理確定了嗎那這個大概什麼時候會修\n339738\t367580\t我們在年底之前會年底那這段時間您現在已經發現問題而且很嚴重那在這段時間到年底我們有初步的一些一些這個調整那當然目前也在徵詢各地方在實際上這個整個運作裡面怎麼樣未來能夠更順暢沒有因為我看這個問題很嚴重那您也願意修啦這要給你肯定就是說以後匿名就不受理但是那這個空窗期還要二到三個月嘛\n368160\t381439\t那是不是直接就不受理就好不然這裡二三個月你也發現有問題可是匿名的照樣受理那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎或者是說你趕快修嘛\n382625\t398058\t如果說只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎先跟委員報告因為這整個委員剛剛的分流還有這個受理不受理它是整套嘛所以委員指導的說中間能不能夠先有趕快做一些處理10月1號我們就先發了一個行政的要求我們會後給委員\n400220\t421870\t所以要求就是說從現在開始如果是匿名的就不受理嗎因為這個是法條這一部分的話學校都知道會嚴謹的執行但是分流那一塊還有相關的執行的要項我們11月1號有發一個文那是分流啦我現在講的是匿名我說匿名也會包含說學校在運用第九條的時候的一些想法他們有做一張表\n422676\t437036\t好啦那就朝這個朝這個方向好不好好謝謝第二個吼崔老師其實還有一個問題那個也跟部長反映一下現在因為108課綱實施以後其實老師的壓力都變大了以前他們有教材嗎\n437937\t456972\t現在108課綱是要求老師要編教台嘛有些課程對不對然後另外就是還有要叫報告嘛很多額外的工作要做但是他們雖然說壓力提高可是相關的待遇福利並沒有相對也提升啦我這邊提一個建議啦就是能不能啊\n458814\t480325\t針對高中國中跟國小的老師通通可以減基本的重點授課時數因為高中現在是16堂國中是18堂小學是20堂一律就減兩個小時就是高中是14小時國中16小時小學是18個小時讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課這樣有機會嗎\n484076\t506878\t感謝委員這當然也是書寫老師教學壓力的一個方式因為它也涉及到地方就是說我們這個物理編定的地方它也有地方的一些規範另外事實上隨著108課綱裡邊我們也期待也鼓勵大學因為確實有一些老師他本來的專業並沒有譬如說以海洋\n507318\t531001\t或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費\n532202\t550857\t因為如果說高中譬如說16個小時他減2個小時他就剩14個小時你可能會考慮到說那他多出來課誰要教對吧那其實你就直接給他超終點津貼就好了嘛那其實我幫你算過了啦大概這樣也差不了多少錢啦可能一個老師就一個月就多大概三四千塊台北市算過齁\n552219\t566514\t現在老師也覺得他的超充鐵已經不勝負荷了那也可以再增嘛如果你有錢我還沒講完台北市有算過如果是這樣子運作的話他大概一年是增加兩億左右所以全國大概就是增加二三十億\n567415\t590364\t你只要一年編二三十億全國的老師他可以減兩個小時的終點那如果他超終點的話大概就是全國就增加二十幾億剛才我一直在提台北市以台北市的一個財政部其實我覺得不不不 等一下我還沒講完我還沒有講完我是希望教育部可以統一做教育部直接變預算因為你們之前送來的特別預算\n591284\t608501\t國家是任性的你覺得高教任性有問題所以你就編了兩百億高教就編了兩百億給高教我認為國教也同等重要我們是支持你編預算給高教但你高教都可以編兩百億國教我這邊幫你算過大概二三十億你說對不起這個錢我沒有\n610219\t624368\t那真的就是 我覺得我要替國教這些老師感到委屈啦 也吃醋啦部長為什麼你好像對高教就比較重視在特別預算的時候我言很清楚 我本身也是小學老師對嘛 所以不能忘本嘛部長而且我講這個東西我跟你講 現在因為\n628931\t657808\t就像上次跟你讲的譬如说现在缺军人所以我们提升军人的待遇同样的缺老师当然在待遇上面也许没有办法达到他们的真正的百分之百期待但是这是一种尊重所以我提出这样的要求也许你第一次听或怎么样你研议一下好不好 20亿相较于你给高教200亿其实不赚多但是可以让老师们获得一定的尊重基本上我其实对国民教育就是说教育部在另一个最基本的一个\n658969\t680723\t規範也同時鼓勵我們各地方縣市政府因地制以包含財政怎麼樣有一個對國民教育包含老實的一個支持好啦 那個部長因為推給地方政府啦您就肩膀挑起來啦因為這個是統一的政策啦你先研究一下這統一的政策嘛委員所講我聽進去我們也願意來研議但是我也希望\n681483\t702717\t地方政府可以啊 那你就找地方政府一起來討論嘛但總是要有人起頭跟帶頭當領頭羊嘛而且這個事情如果你研議之後你發現值得做那大家再來討論裁員的問題嘛中央覺得20億對老師好 我願意花有Guts我們給你肯定啊如果想說 哎呀高教我比較願意支持給200億沒問題但是國教20億我覺得我很捨不得那我們就來討論嘛對不對 好不好\n711543\t730341\t但是委員局不要跟我這麼講那你一個月內好不好一個月內不要跟我講說我對國教不重視那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下這個是一個月內第三個議題就是我們針對校園的安全我一直非常關心部長您應該也知道也非常謝謝您\n731542\t759326\t在去年的時候給了每個學校一個校安人員國中校安人員我跟很多國中問過其實他們都覺得即便是只有一個非常少但是那一位也都扮演很重要的角色我還要再跟你今年能不能再多一個國中好不好再一個研議因為今天第一次這個會第一次質詢我都先把議題拋出來對能夠再一個我的目標其實不是只有一個我的目標是比照高中六班一個啦\n760100\t787478\t但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過 三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過 五個大過 十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎\n788715\t808624\t那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作\n809304\t821511\t然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的\n822830\t840926\t基金會或協會跟他合作成立中介教育組織讓他們獲得其他的中介的教育那我覺得你可以去找人本基金會啦因為人本基金會以人為本愛的教育我相信他們可以提供一個不錯的中介教育組織好不好 你這個部分你也研究一下\n842047\t853353\t除了人本基金會是我建議你可以找其他的單位中介組織來解決這個問題還有一件事情現在教師人員有身心調試假三天\n855135\t881841\t主席再一下三天身心調適假有吧這個是你們的宣傳說增訂的身心調適假所以現在教師看起來他最多可以請七天的病假可以請七天的試假又最多可以請三天的身心調適假還可以請三天的家庭照顧假對吧 這是說他們最多可以請的假但是部長 七加七加三 加三等於幾\n883393\t905924\t在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20對吧我說數學上7加7加3加3是不是等於20沒錯數學啦我問你數學沒錯吧但是7天的病假加7天的試假加3天的身心調試假再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7呀\n907878\t916025\t他們這全部都是你可以請沒關係可是不能超過七天沒有啦 這個對不對你都併入市併價計算嘛\n916994\t939174\t那对于一个老师而言教育部给我三天的身心调治假好高兴我多三天假然后一般的人也以为说老师好棒喔我还没讲完其他人也觉得说老师好棒喔七天是病假之外又多了三天的身心调治假还有三天的家庭照顾假\n939955\t952013\t但大家不知道的是你请了三天的家庭照顾假或你请了三天的身心调治假你嗜病假就剩四天这是一种朝三暮四的概念\n953717\t975567\t所以部長不要為德不足啦如果你認為身心調適假那麼的重要那個考試院之前說公務人員可以請這個身心調適假配合賴總統健康台灣的願景啊哇 大家都羨慕的不得了不好意思 你請身心調適假你士兵假就少三天所以如果真的認為這個東西那麼重要的話應該要用外加啦你們同不同意\n979400\t994065\t我們繼續努力不是不是努力啦同不同意因為你看到主席站起來你就想說是不是隨便講兩句話我就離開沒有沒有我們要問一個比較具體的答案部長我想我們當然\n995632\t1019049\t完全了解老師的一個期待那當然從整個一個政府部門 公部門他整體的一個不同的一個職業類別上的一些考量所以我們對老師的一個身心調適叫過去他用試駕他是要自付代理 代課費那我們這邊教育部是來支持你幫他付代課費 這我曉得啦我現在講的是駕有幾天的問題嘛\n1020984\t1033748\t對不對 好不好 部長 演繹因為這個不注意站起來 但是我希望真的演繹是不是可以給我們一個說明 好不好可以嗎 可以啊 好 謝謝謝謝月圓\n","txt":"請教育部長 謝謝請鄭部長委員好\n部長好我想來跟你討論一下缺老師問題這個問題其實之前也都問過您記得八月的時候那時候我有提出說我們應該來好好的檢討一下校事會議然後有請您去跟基層老師座談也非常感謝後來我就發現八月的時候你到我們板橋來來辦了一場跟基層老師座談會代表你也是說到做到這一點要給你肯定但是就是說我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後對於校事會議\n你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎基本上大概我們從北中南這一個不僅老師當然包含校長我們家長我們事實上也都有一些座談那大概我們現在發現原來的校士會本來他是希望解決那些不適合教師來處理不適合教師透過\n這個外聘的這些公正的委員來協助處理但是學校實際在運作的時候我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議這個是不對的所以我們希望以後是真正的不是任教師才走這個流程其他的應該是從學校的一個輔導這個班級經營的真人或者老師的一個提醒或者甚至有一些\n這一個教師的一些行為預約的這些專業的一個承諾但是不至於進入到教師會議這一個可能進考機考核就是說這一個先分流那第二個就是不具名的因為我們從這一年來所有的data裡面看走入到不適合老師裡面那26位的老師都是具名指控的也就是說大部分\n沒有進入到或者不成立的都是不具名的所以我們希望減少這個爛數能夠減少這個不必要去造成學校真正的一個運作上的困擾我想這個部分我們也會把他在未來修正的方向也會把他拉平好 那個接下來我們就來具體討論一下謝謝你發現的問題而且也願意要解決因為校師會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的他當然有他的功能存在但是後來已經走到爛數了是\n我們可以看幾個數據這我跟你們教一步要的你看113年4月17號到114年5月30號校士會議總共開了1372次總共有1124個老師被調查其中382個是發現根本沒這回事\n就結案了然後最後停聘只有六個啊停聘率大概是1.9可見這中天有多少爛數多少爛數那這個爛數我們現在看到只是數字而已啊可是對老師來說是一個煎熬他就莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉的而且是一個主觀的評論說這個老師 孟茂老師很兇他就要進入到校事會議然後被調查二到四個月正常來講校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查\n兩個月可以延長一個月再加一個月對 就是最多四個月嘛對 所有大概大家都被大概就是要被煎熬四個月那我有跟你們平均調查期間可是你們沒有統計啦\n基本上校食會議你應該要讓他調查時間越短越好啊你看如果一個老師他被調查四個月結果發現不好意思你是冤枉的那不是開玩笑嗎這老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響四個月所以你當然時間要越短越好啊然後還有一個校食會議一個非常不合理的一個地方是一般來說如果有人要檢舉那要證明他有罪嘛\n要具體的證據人事物結果常常老師莫名其妙被檢舉以後是老師要自證無罪我就舉一個例子有一個網紅老師他在網路上常常發表一些跟教育有關的文章因為寫得非常好所以非常多人去閱讀結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉說他是不是有利用他的網紅身份收業配結果他又被進入校事會議他要去證明說我沒有收業配\n這不是已經反過來了嗎是不是應該檢舉他的人應該要說他收業配啊怎麼會他來證明自己沒有收業配呢這也是我們希望說那些沒有負責不具名的我們就不再介紹所以校士會議真的我覺得你初步了解的這個問題嚴重性我覺得還要更進一步的了解到底他在執行上面要怎麼做到對老師更尊重而且不要影響到老師教學那校會現在部長你現在講的應該是要修這一條對不對我們直接看\n就是在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘的或資檢辦法的第九條的第三點對不對你現在要修這條嗎就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名或足以識別其身份資訊\n然後後面還有一個但書但檢舉內容包括行為人你說這第三點整個修掉是不是但書修掉所以意思就是說以後只要是匿名檢舉通通依據依蓋不受理只要匿名檢舉就依蓋不受理確定了嗎那這個大概什麼時候會修\n我們在年底之前會年底那這段時間您現在已經發現問題而且很嚴重那在這段時間到年底我們有初步的一些一些這個調整那當然目前也在徵詢各地方在實際上這個整個運作裡面怎麼樣未來能夠更順暢沒有因為我看這個問題很嚴重那您也願意修啦這要給你肯定就是說以後匿名就不受理但是那這個空窗期還要二到三個月嘛\n那是不是直接就不受理就好不然這裡二三個月你也發現有問題可是匿名的照樣受理那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎或者是說你趕快修嘛\n如果說只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎先跟委員報告因為這整個委員剛剛的分流還有這個受理不受理它是整套嘛所以委員指導的說中間能不能夠先有趕快做一些處理10月1號我們就先發了一個行政的要求我們會後給委員\n所以要求就是說從現在開始如果是匿名的就不受理嗎因為這個是法條這一部分的話學校都知道會嚴謹的執行但是分流那一塊還有相關的執行的要項我們11月1號有發一個文那是分流啦我現在講的是匿名我說匿名也會包含說學校在運用第九條的時候的一些想法他們有做一張表\n好啦那就朝這個朝這個方向好不好好謝謝第二個吼崔老師其實還有一個問題那個也跟部長反映一下現在因為108課綱實施以後其實老師的壓力都變大了以前他們有教材嗎\n現在108課綱是要求老師要編教台嘛有些課程對不對然後另外就是還有要叫報告嘛很多額外的工作要做但是他們雖然說壓力提高可是相關的待遇福利並沒有相對也提升啦我這邊提一個建議啦就是能不能啊\n針對高中國中跟國小的老師通通可以減基本的重點授課時數因為高中現在是16堂國中是18堂小學是20堂一律就減兩個小時就是高中是14小時國中16小時小學是18個小時讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課這樣有機會嗎\n感謝委員這當然也是書寫老師教學壓力的一個方式因為它也涉及到地方就是說我們這個物理編定的地方它也有地方的一些規範另外事實上隨著108課綱裡邊我們也期待也鼓勵大學因為確實有一些老師他本來的專業並沒有譬如說以海洋\n或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費\n因為如果說高中譬如說16個小時他減2個小時他就剩14個小時你可能會考慮到說那他多出來課誰要教對吧那其實你就直接給他超終點津貼就好了嘛那其實我幫你算過了啦大概這樣也差不了多少錢啦可能一個老師就一個月就多大概三四千塊台北市算過齁\n現在老師也覺得他的超充鐵已經不勝負荷了那也可以再增嘛如果你有錢我還沒講完台北市有算過如果是這樣子運作的話他大概一年是增加兩億左右所以全國大概就是增加二三十億\n你只要一年編二三十億全國的老師他可以減兩個小時的終點那如果他超終點的話大概就是全國就增加二十幾億剛才我一直在提台北市以台北市的一個財政部其實我覺得不不不 等一下我還沒講完我還沒有講完我是希望教育部可以統一做教育部直接變預算因為你們之前送來的特別預算\n國家是任性的你覺得高教任性有問題所以你就編了兩百億高教就編了兩百億給高教我認為國教也同等重要我們是支持你編預算給高教但你高教都可以編兩百億國教我這邊幫你算過大概二三十億你說對不起這個錢我沒有\n那真的就是 我覺得我要替國教這些老師感到委屈啦 也吃醋啦部長為什麼你好像對高教就比較重視在特別預算的時候我言很清楚 我本身也是小學老師對嘛 所以不能忘本嘛部長而且我講這個東西我跟你講 現在因為\n就像上次跟你讲的譬如说现在缺军人所以我们提升军人的待遇同样的缺老师当然在待遇上面也许没有办法达到他们的真正的百分之百期待但是这是一种尊重所以我提出这样的要求也许你第一次听或怎么样你研议一下好不好 20亿相较于你给高教200亿其实不赚多但是可以让老师们获得一定的尊重基本上我其实对国民教育就是说教育部在另一个最基本的一个\n規範也同時鼓勵我們各地方縣市政府因地制以包含財政怎麼樣有一個對國民教育包含老實的一個支持好啦 那個部長因為推給地方政府啦您就肩膀挑起來啦因為這個是統一的政策啦你先研究一下這統一的政策嘛委員所講我聽進去我們也願意來研議但是我也希望\n地方政府可以啊 那你就找地方政府一起來討論嘛但總是要有人起頭跟帶頭當領頭羊嘛而且這個事情如果你研議之後你發現值得做那大家再來討論裁員的問題嘛中央覺得20億對老師好 我願意花有Guts我們給你肯定啊如果想說 哎呀高教我比較願意支持給200億沒問題但是國教20億我覺得我很捨不得那我們就來討論嘛對不對 好不好\n但是委員局不要跟我這麼講那你一個月內好不好一個月內不要跟我講說我對國教不重視那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下這個是一個月內第三個議題就是我們針對校園的安全我一直非常關心部長您應該也知道也非常謝謝您\n在去年的時候給了每個學校一個校安人員國中校安人員我跟很多國中問過其實他們都覺得即便是只有一個非常少但是那一位也都扮演很重要的角色我還要再跟你今年能不能再多一個國中好不好再一個研議因為今天第一次這個會第一次質詢我都先把議題拋出來對能夠再一個我的目標其實不是只有一個我的目標是比照高中六班一個啦\n但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過 三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過 五個大過 十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎\n那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作\n然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的\n基金會或協會跟他合作成立中介教育組織讓他們獲得其他的中介的教育那我覺得你可以去找人本基金會啦因為人本基金會以人為本愛的教育我相信他們可以提供一個不錯的中介教育組織好不好 你這個部分你也研究一下\n除了人本基金會是我建議你可以找其他的單位中介組織來解決這個問題還有一件事情現在教師人員有身心調試假三天\n主席再一下三天身心調適假有吧這個是你們的宣傳說增訂的身心調適假所以現在教師看起來他最多可以請七天的病假可以請七天的試假又最多可以請三天的身心調適假還可以請三天的家庭照顧假對吧 這是說他們最多可以請的假但是部長 七加七加三 加三等於幾\n在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20對吧我說數學上7加7加3加3是不是等於20沒錯數學啦我問你數學沒錯吧但是7天的病假加7天的試假加3天的身心調試假再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7呀\n他們這全部都是你可以請沒關係可是不能超過七天沒有啦 這個對不對你都併入市併價計算嘛\n那对于一个老师而言教育部给我三天的身心调治假好高兴我多三天假然后一般的人也以为说老师好棒喔我还没讲完其他人也觉得说老师好棒喔七天是病假之外又多了三天的身心调治假还有三天的家庭照顾假\n但大家不知道的是你请了三天的家庭照顾假或你请了三天的身心调治假你嗜病假就剩四天这是一种朝三暮四的概念\n所以部長不要為德不足啦如果你認為身心調適假那麼的重要那個考試院之前說公務人員可以請這個身心調適假配合賴總統健康台灣的願景啊哇 大家都羨慕的不得了不好意思 你請身心調適假你士兵假就少三天所以如果真的認為這個東西那麼重要的話應該要用外加啦你們同不同意\n我們繼續努力不是不是努力啦同不同意因為你看到主席站起來你就想說是不是隨便講兩句話我就離開沒有沒有我們要問一個比較具體的答案部長我想我們當然\n完全了解老師的一個期待那當然從整個一個政府部門 公部門他整體的一個不同的一個職業類別上的一些考量所以我們對老師的一個身心調適叫過去他用試駕他是要自付代理 代課費那我們這邊教育部是來支持你幫他付代課費 這我曉得啦我現在講的是駕有幾天的問題嘛\n對不對 好不好 部長 演繹因為這個不注意站起來 但是我希望真的演繹是不是可以給我們一個說明 好不好可以嗎 可以啊 好 謝謝謝謝月圓\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.389\n請教育部長謝謝請鄭部長委員好\n\n00:18.977 --> 00:45.906\n部長好我想來跟你討論一下缺老師問題這個問題其實之前也都問過您記得八月的時候那時候我有提出說我們應該來好好的檢討一下校事會議然後有請您去跟基層老師座談也非常感謝後來我就發現八月的時候你到我們板橋來來辦了一場跟基層老師座談會代表你也是說到做到這一點要給你肯定但是就是說我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後對於校事會議\n\n00:46.906 --> 01:07.441\n你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎基本上大概我們從北中南這一個不僅老師當然包含校長我們家長我們事實上也都有一些座談那大概我們現在發現原來的校士會本來他是希望解決那些不適合教師來處理不適合教師透過\n\n01:09.648 --> 01:33.929\n這個外聘的這些公正的委員來協助處理但是學校實際在運作的時候我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議這個是不對的所以我們希望以後是真正的不是任教師才走這個流程其他的應該是從學校的一個輔導這個班級經營的真人或者老師的一個提醒或者甚至有一些\n\n01:34.850 --> 01:59.549\n這一個教師的一些行為預約的這些專業的一個承諾但是不至於進入到教師會議這一個可能進考機考核就是說這一個先分流那第二個就是不具名的因為我們從這一年來所有的data裡面看走入到不適合老師裡面那26位的老師都是具名指控的也就是說大部分\n\n02:00.330 --> 02:28.753\n沒有進入到或者不成立的都是不具名的所以我們希望減少這個爛數能夠減少這個不必要去造成學校真正的一個運作上的困擾我想這個部分我們也會把他在未來修正的方向也會把他拉平好那個接下來我們就來具體討論一下謝謝你發現的問題而且也願意要解決因為校師會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的他當然有他的功能存在但是後來已經走到爛數了是\n\n02:29.654 --> 02:32.316\n我們可以看幾個數據這我跟你們教一步要的你看113年4月17號到114年5月30號校士會議總共開了1372次總共有1124個老師被調查其中382個是發現根本沒這回事\n\n02:48.184 --> 03:16.471\n就結案了然後最後停聘只有六個啊停聘率大概是1.9可見這中天有多少爛數多少爛數那這個爛數我們現在看到只是數字而已啊可是對老師來說是一個煎熬他就莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉的而且是一個主觀的評論說這個老師孟茂老師很兇他就要進入到校事會議然後被調查二到四個月正常來講校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查\n\n03:20.329 --> 03:31.784\n兩個月可以延長一個月再加一個月對就是最多四個月嘛對所有大概大家都被大概就是要被煎熬四個月那我有跟你們平均調查期間可是你們沒有統計啦\n\n03:32.867 --> 03:59.374\n基本上校食會議你應該要讓他調查時間越短越好啊你看如果一個老師他被調查四個月結果發現不好意思你是冤枉的那不是開玩笑嗎這老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響四個月所以你當然時間要越短越好啊然後還有一個校食會議一個非常不合理的一個地方是一般來說如果有人要檢舉那要證明他有罪嘛\n\n04:00.674 --> 04:27.812\n要具體的證據人事物結果常常老師莫名其妙被檢舉以後是老師要自證無罪我就舉一個例子有一個網紅老師他在網路上常常發表一些跟教育有關的文章因為寫得非常好所以非常多人去閱讀結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉說他是不是有利用他的網紅身份收業配結果他又被進入校事會議他要去證明說我沒有收業配\n\n04:28.940 --> 04:58.146\n這不是已經反過來了嗎是不是應該檢舉他的人應該要說他收業配啊怎麼會他來證明自己沒有收業配呢這也是我們希望說那些沒有負責不具名的我們就不再介紹所以校士會議真的我覺得你初步了解的這個問題嚴重性我覺得還要更進一步的了解到底他在執行上面要怎麼做到對老師更尊重而且不要影響到老師教學那校會現在部長你現在講的應該是要修這一條對不對我們直接看\n\n04:58.871 --> 05:15.614\n就是在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘的或資檢辦法的第九條的第三點對不對你現在要修這條嗎就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名或足以識別其身份資訊\n\n05:17.273 --> 05:37.968\n然後後面還有一個但書但檢舉內容包括行為人你說這第三點整個修掉是不是但書修掉所以意思就是說以後只要是匿名檢舉通通依據依蓋不受理只要匿名檢舉就依蓋不受理確定了嗎那這個大概什麼時候會修\n\n05:39.738 --> 06:07.580\n我們在年底之前會年底那這段時間您現在已經發現問題而且很嚴重那在這段時間到年底我們有初步的一些一些這個調整那當然目前也在徵詢各地方在實際上這個整個運作裡面怎麼樣未來能夠更順暢沒有因為我看這個問題很嚴重那您也願意修啦這要給你肯定就是說以後匿名就不受理但是那這個空窗期還要二到三個月嘛\n\n06:08.160 --> 06:21.439\n那是不是直接就不受理就好不然這裡二三個月你也發現有問題可是匿名的照樣受理那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎或者是說你趕快修嘛\n\n06:22.625 --> 06:38.058\n如果說只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎先跟委員報告因為這整個委員剛剛的分流還有這個受理不受理它是整套嘛所以委員指導的說中間能不能夠先有趕快做一些處理10月1號我們就先發了一個行政的要求我們會後給委員\n\n06:40.220 --> 07:01.870\n所以要求就是說從現在開始如果是匿名的就不受理嗎因為這個是法條這一部分的話學校都知道會嚴謹的執行但是分流那一塊還有相關的執行的要項我們11月1號有發一個文那是分流啦我現在講的是匿名我說匿名也會包含說學校在運用第九條的時候的一些想法他們有做一張表\n\n07:02.676 --> 07:17.036\n好啦那就朝這個朝這個方向好不好好謝謝第二個吼崔老師其實還有一個問題那個也跟部長反映一下現在因為108課綱實施以後其實老師的壓力都變大了以前他們有教材嗎\n\n07:17.937 --> 07:36.972\n現在108課綱是要求老師要編教台嘛有些課程對不對然後另外就是還有要叫報告嘛很多額外的工作要做但是他們雖然說壓力提高可是相關的待遇福利並沒有相對也提升啦我這邊提一個建議啦就是能不能啊\n\n07:38.814 --> 08:00.325\n針對高中國中跟國小的老師通通可以減基本的重點授課時數因為高中現在是16堂國中是18堂小學是20堂一律就減兩個小時就是高中是14小時國中16小時小學是18個小時讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課這樣有機會嗎\n\n08:04.076 --> 08:26.878\n感謝委員這當然也是書寫老師教學壓力的一個方式因為它也涉及到地方就是說我們這個物理編定的地方它也有地方的一些規範另外事實上隨著108課綱裡邊我們也期待也鼓勵大學因為確實有一些老師他本來的專業並沒有譬如說以海洋\n\n08:27.318 --> 08:51.001\n或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費\n\n08:52.202 --> 09:10.857\n因為如果說高中譬如說16個小時他減2個小時他就剩14個小時你可能會考慮到說那他多出來課誰要教對吧那其實你就直接給他超終點津貼就好了嘛那其實我幫你算過了啦大概這樣也差不了多少錢啦可能一個老師就一個月就多大概三四千塊台北市算過齁\n\n09:12.219 --> 09:26.514\n現在老師也覺得他的超充鐵已經不勝負荷了那也可以再增嘛如果你有錢我還沒講完台北市有算過如果是這樣子運作的話他大概一年是增加兩億左右所以全國大概就是增加二三十億\n\n09:27.415 --> 09:50.364\n你只要一年編二三十億全國的老師他可以減兩個小時的終點那如果他超終點的話大概就是全國就增加二十幾億剛才我一直在提台北市以台北市的一個財政部其實我覺得不不不等一下我還沒講完我還沒有講完我是希望教育部可以統一做教育部直接變預算因為你們之前送來的特別預算\n\n09:51.284 --> 10:08.501\n國家是任性的你覺得高教任性有問題所以你就編了兩百億高教就編了兩百億給高教我認為國教也同等重要我們是支持你編預算給高教但你高教都可以編兩百億國教我這邊幫你算過大概二三十億你說對不起這個錢我沒有\n\n10:10.219 --> 10:24.368\n那真的就是我覺得我要替國教這些老師感到委屈啦也吃醋啦部長為什麼你好像對高教就比較重視在特別預算的時候我言很清楚我本身也是小學老師對嘛所以不能忘本嘛部長而且我講這個東西我跟你講現在因為\n\n10:28.931 --> 10:57.808\n就像上次跟你讲的譬如说现在缺军人所以我们提升军人的待遇同样的缺老师当然在待遇上面也许没有办法达到他们的真正的百分之百期待但是这是一种尊重所以我提出这样的要求也许你第一次听或怎么样你研议一下好不好20亿相较于你给高教200亿其实不赚多但是可以让老师们获得一定的尊重基本上我其实对国民教育就是说教育部在另一个最基本的一个\n\n10:58.969 --> 11:20.723\n規範也同時鼓勵我們各地方縣市政府因地制以包含財政怎麼樣有一個對國民教育包含老實的一個支持好啦那個部長因為推給地方政府啦您就肩膀挑起來啦因為這個是統一的政策啦你先研究一下這統一的政策嘛委員所講我聽進去我們也願意來研議但是我也希望\n\n11:21.483 --> 11:42.717\n地方政府可以啊那你就找地方政府一起來討論嘛但總是要有人起頭跟帶頭當領頭羊嘛而且這個事情如果你研議之後你發現值得做那大家再來討論裁員的問題嘛中央覺得20億對老師好我願意花有Guts我們給你肯定啊如果想說哎呀高教我比較願意支持給200億沒問題但是國教20億我覺得我很捨不得那我們就來討論嘛對不對好不好\n\n11:51.543 --> 12:10.341\n但是委員局不要跟我這麼講那你一個月內好不好一個月內不要跟我講說我對國教不重視那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下這個是一個月內第三個議題就是我們針對校園的安全我一直非常關心部長您應該也知道也非常謝謝您\n\n12:11.542 --> 12:39.326\n在去年的時候給了每個學校一個校安人員國中校安人員我跟很多國中問過其實他們都覺得即便是只有一個非常少但是那一位也都扮演很重要的角色我還要再跟你今年能不能再多一個國中好不好再一個研議因為今天第一次這個會第一次質詢我都先把議題拋出來對能夠再一個我的目標其實不是只有一個我的目標是比照高中六班一個啦\n\n12:40.100 --> 13:07.478\n但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過五個大過十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎\n\n13:08.715 --> 13:28.624\n那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作\n\n13:29.304 --> 13:41.511\n然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的\n\n13:42.830 --> 14:00.926\n基金會或協會跟他合作成立中介教育組織讓他們獲得其他的中介的教育那我覺得你可以去找人本基金會啦因為人本基金會以人為本愛的教育我相信他們可以提供一個不錯的中介教育組織好不好你這個部分你也研究一下\n\n14:02.047 --> 14:13.353\n除了人本基金會是我建議你可以找其他的單位中介組織來解決這個問題還有一件事情現在教師人員有身心調試假三天\n\n14:15.135 --> 14:41.841\n主席再一下三天身心調適假有吧這個是你們的宣傳說增訂的身心調適假所以現在教師看起來他最多可以請七天的病假可以請七天的試假又最多可以請三天的身心調適假還可以請三天的家庭照顧假對吧這是說他們最多可以請的假但是部長七加七加三加三等於幾\n\n14:43.393 --> 15:05.924\n在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20對吧我說數學上7加7加3加3是不是等於20沒錯數學啦我問你數學沒錯吧但是7天的病假加7天的試假加3天的身心調試假再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7呀\n\n15:07.878 --> 15:16.025\n他們這全部都是你可以請沒關係可是不能超過七天沒有啦這個對不對你都併入市併價計算嘛\n\n15:16.994 --> 15:39.174\n那对于一个老师而言教育部给我三天的身心调治假好高兴我多三天假然后一般的人也以为说老师好棒喔我还没讲完其他人也觉得说老师好棒喔七天是病假之外又多了三天的身心调治假还有三天的家庭照顾假\n\n15:39.955 --> 15:52.013\n但大家不知道的是你请了三天的家庭照顾假或你请了三天的身心调治假你嗜病假就剩四天这是一种朝三暮四的概念\n\n15:53.717 --> 16:15.567\n所以部長不要為德不足啦如果你認為身心調適假那麼的重要那個考試院之前說公務人員可以請這個身心調適假配合賴總統健康台灣的願景啊哇大家都羨慕的不得了不好意思你請身心調適假你士兵假就少三天所以如果真的認為這個東西那麼重要的話應該要用外加啦你們同不同意\n\n16:19.400 --> 16:34.065\n我們繼續努力不是不是努力啦同不同意因為你看到主席站起來你就想說是不是隨便講兩句話我就離開沒有沒有我們要問一個比較具體的答案部長我想我們當然\n\n16:35.632 --> 16:59.049\n完全了解老師的一個期待那當然從整個一個政府部門公部門他整體的一個不同的一個職業類別上的一些考量所以我們對老師的一個身心調適叫過去他用試駕他是要自付代理代課費那我們這邊教育部是來支持你幫他付代課費這我曉得啦我現在講的是駕有幾天的問題嘛\n\n17:00.984 --> 17:13.748\n對不對好不好部長演繹因為這個不注意站起來但是我希望真的演繹是不是可以給我們一個說明好不好可以嗎可以啊好謝謝謝謝月圓\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.389,"text":"請教育部長 謝謝請鄭部長委員好"},{"start":18.977,"end":45.906,"text":"部長好我想來跟你討論一下缺老師問題這個問題其實之前也都問過您記得八月的時候那時候我有提出說我們應該來好好的檢討一下校事會議然後有請您去跟基層老師座談也非常感謝後來我就發現八月的時候你到我們板橋來來辦了一場跟基層老師座談會代表你也是說到做到這一點要給你肯定但是就是說我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後對於校事會議"},{"start":46.906,"end":67.441,"text":"你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎基本上大概我們從北中南這一個不僅老師當然包含校長我們家長我們事實上也都有一些座談那大概我們現在發現原來的校士會本來他是希望解決那些不適合教師來處理不適合教師透過"},{"start":69.648,"end":93.929,"text":"這個外聘的這些公正的委員來協助處理但是學校實際在運作的時候我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議這個是不對的所以我們希望以後是真正的不是任教師才走這個流程其他的應該是從學校的一個輔導這個班級經營的真人或者老師的一個提醒或者甚至有一些"},{"start":94.85,"end":119.549,"text":"這一個教師的一些行為預約的這些專業的一個承諾但是不至於進入到教師會議這一個可能進考機考核就是說這一個先分流那第二個就是不具名的因為我們從這一年來所有的data裡面看走入到不適合老師裡面那26位的老師都是具名指控的也就是說大部分"},{"start":120.33,"end":148.753,"text":"沒有進入到或者不成立的都是不具名的所以我們希望減少這個爛數能夠減少這個不必要去造成學校真正的一個運作上的困擾我想這個部分我們也會把他在未來修正的方向也會把他拉平好 那個接下來我們就來具體討論一下謝謝你發現的問題而且也願意要解決因為校師會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的他當然有他的功能存在但是後來已經走到爛數了是"},{"start":149.654,"end":152.316,"text":"我們可以看幾個數據這我跟你們教一步要的你看113年4月17號到114年5月30號校士會議總共開了1372次總共有1124個老師被調查其中382個是發現根本沒這回事"},{"start":168.184,"end":196.471,"text":"就結案了然後最後停聘只有六個啊停聘率大概是1.9可見這中天有多少爛數多少爛數那這個爛數我們現在看到只是數字而已啊可是對老師來說是一個煎熬他就莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉的而且是一個主觀的評論說這個老師 孟茂老師很兇他就要進入到校事會議然後被調查二到四個月正常來講校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查"},{"start":200.329,"end":211.784,"text":"兩個月可以延長一個月再加一個月對 就是最多四個月嘛對 所有大概大家都被大概就是要被煎熬四個月那我有跟你們平均調查期間可是你們沒有統計啦"},{"start":212.867,"end":239.374,"text":"基本上校食會議你應該要讓他調查時間越短越好啊你看如果一個老師他被調查四個月結果發現不好意思你是冤枉的那不是開玩笑嗎這老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響四個月所以你當然時間要越短越好啊然後還有一個校食會議一個非常不合理的一個地方是一般來說如果有人要檢舉那要證明他有罪嘛"},{"start":240.674,"end":267.812,"text":"要具體的證據人事物結果常常老師莫名其妙被檢舉以後是老師要自證無罪我就舉一個例子有一個網紅老師他在網路上常常發表一些跟教育有關的文章因為寫得非常好所以非常多人去閱讀結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉說他是不是有利用他的網紅身份收業配結果他又被進入校事會議他要去證明說我沒有收業配"},{"start":268.94,"end":298.146,"text":"這不是已經反過來了嗎是不是應該檢舉他的人應該要說他收業配啊怎麼會他來證明自己沒有收業配呢這也是我們希望說那些沒有負責不具名的我們就不再介紹所以校士會議真的我覺得你初步了解的這個問題嚴重性我覺得還要更進一步的了解到底他在執行上面要怎麼做到對老師更尊重而且不要影響到老師教學那校會現在部長你現在講的應該是要修這一條對不對我們直接看"},{"start":298.871,"end":315.614,"text":"就是在高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘的或資檢辦法的第九條的第三點對不對你現在要修這條嗎就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名或足以識別其身份資訊"},{"start":317.273,"end":337.968,"text":"然後後面還有一個但書但檢舉內容包括行為人你說這第三點整個修掉是不是但書修掉所以意思就是說以後只要是匿名檢舉通通依據依蓋不受理只要匿名檢舉就依蓋不受理確定了嗎那這個大概什麼時候會修"},{"start":339.738,"end":367.58,"text":"我們在年底之前會年底那這段時間您現在已經發現問題而且很嚴重那在這段時間到年底我們有初步的一些一些這個調整那當然目前也在徵詢各地方在實際上這個整個運作裡面怎麼樣未來能夠更順暢沒有因為我看這個問題很嚴重那您也願意修啦這要給你肯定就是說以後匿名就不受理但是那這個空窗期還要二到三個月嘛"},{"start":368.16,"end":381.439,"text":"那是不是直接就不受理就好不然這裡二三個月你也發現有問題可是匿名的照樣受理那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎或者是說你趕快修嘛"},{"start":382.625,"end":398.058,"text":"如果說只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎先跟委員報告因為這整個委員剛剛的分流還有這個受理不受理它是整套嘛所以委員指導的說中間能不能夠先有趕快做一些處理10月1號我們就先發了一個行政的要求我們會後給委員"},{"start":400.22,"end":421.87,"text":"所以要求就是說從現在開始如果是匿名的就不受理嗎因為這個是法條這一部分的話學校都知道會嚴謹的執行但是分流那一塊還有相關的執行的要項我們11月1號有發一個文那是分流啦我現在講的是匿名我說匿名也會包含說學校在運用第九條的時候的一些想法他們有做一張表"},{"start":422.676,"end":437.036,"text":"好啦那就朝這個朝這個方向好不好好謝謝第二個吼崔老師其實還有一個問題那個也跟部長反映一下現在因為108課綱實施以後其實老師的壓力都變大了以前他們有教材嗎"},{"start":437.937,"end":456.972,"text":"現在108課綱是要求老師要編教台嘛有些課程對不對然後另外就是還有要叫報告嘛很多額外的工作要做但是他們雖然說壓力提高可是相關的待遇福利並沒有相對也提升啦我這邊提一個建議啦就是能不能啊"},{"start":458.814,"end":480.325,"text":"針對高中國中跟國小的老師通通可以減基本的重點授課時數因為高中現在是16堂國中是18堂小學是20堂一律就減兩個小時就是高中是14小時國中16小時小學是18個小時讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課這樣有機會嗎"},{"start":484.076,"end":506.878,"text":"感謝委員這當然也是書寫老師教學壓力的一個方式因為它也涉及到地方就是說我們這個物理編定的地方它也有地方的一些規範另外事實上隨著108課綱裡邊我們也期待也鼓勵大學因為確實有一些老師他本來的專業並沒有譬如說以海洋"},{"start":507.318,"end":531.001,"text":"或者我們現在在談AI的一些高科技的一些產業那怎麼樣去善用結合大學的思思譬如說我們也看到台以台大因為我跟你講我們時間快到我現在就針對我的建議就是高中國中小學各減兩個小時那您剛剛提到這限制到地方但實際上如果說這個政策的問題交易部這樣定定的當然你會考慮到經費"},{"start":532.202,"end":550.857,"text":"因為如果說高中譬如說16個小時他減2個小時他就剩14個小時你可能會考慮到說那他多出來課誰要教對吧那其實你就直接給他超終點津貼就好了嘛那其實我幫你算過了啦大概這樣也差不了多少錢啦可能一個老師就一個月就多大概三四千塊台北市算過齁"},{"start":552.219,"end":566.514,"text":"現在老師也覺得他的超充鐵已經不勝負荷了那也可以再增嘛如果你有錢我還沒講完台北市有算過如果是這樣子運作的話他大概一年是增加兩億左右所以全國大概就是增加二三十億"},{"start":567.415,"end":590.364,"text":"你只要一年編二三十億全國的老師他可以減兩個小時的終點那如果他超終點的話大概就是全國就增加二十幾億剛才我一直在提台北市以台北市的一個財政部其實我覺得不不不 等一下我還沒講完我還沒有講完我是希望教育部可以統一做教育部直接變預算因為你們之前送來的特別預算"},{"start":591.284,"end":608.501,"text":"國家是任性的你覺得高教任性有問題所以你就編了兩百億高教就編了兩百億給高教我認為國教也同等重要我們是支持你編預算給高教但你高教都可以編兩百億國教我這邊幫你算過大概二三十億你說對不起這個錢我沒有"},{"start":610.219,"end":624.368,"text":"那真的就是 我覺得我要替國教這些老師感到委屈啦 也吃醋啦部長為什麼你好像對高教就比較重視在特別預算的時候我言很清楚 我本身也是小學老師對嘛 所以不能忘本嘛部長而且我講這個東西我跟你講 現在因為"},{"start":628.931,"end":657.808,"text":"就像上次跟你讲的譬如说现在缺军人所以我们提升军人的待遇同样的缺老师当然在待遇上面也许没有办法达到他们的真正的百分之百期待但是这是一种尊重所以我提出这样的要求也许你第一次听或怎么样你研议一下好不好 20亿相较于你给高教200亿其实不赚多但是可以让老师们获得一定的尊重基本上我其实对国民教育就是说教育部在另一个最基本的一个"},{"start":658.969,"end":680.723,"text":"規範也同時鼓勵我們各地方縣市政府因地制以包含財政怎麼樣有一個對國民教育包含老實的一個支持好啦 那個部長因為推給地方政府啦您就肩膀挑起來啦因為這個是統一的政策啦你先研究一下這統一的政策嘛委員所講我聽進去我們也願意來研議但是我也希望"},{"start":681.483,"end":702.717,"text":"地方政府可以啊 那你就找地方政府一起來討論嘛但總是要有人起頭跟帶頭當領頭羊嘛而且這個事情如果你研議之後你發現值得做那大家再來討論裁員的問題嘛中央覺得20億對老師好 我願意花有Guts我們給你肯定啊如果想說 哎呀高教我比較願意支持給200億沒問題但是國教20億我覺得我很捨不得那我們就來討論嘛對不對 好不好"},{"start":711.543,"end":730.341,"text":"但是委員局不要跟我這麼講那你一個月內好不好一個月內不要跟我講說我對國教不重視那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下這個是一個月內第三個議題就是我們針對校園的安全我一直非常關心部長您應該也知道也非常謝謝您"},{"start":731.542,"end":759.326,"text":"在去年的時候給了每個學校一個校安人員國中校安人員我跟很多國中問過其實他們都覺得即便是只有一個非常少但是那一位也都扮演很重要的角色我還要再跟你今年能不能再多一個國中好不好再一個研議因為今天第一次這個會第一次質詢我都先把議題拋出來對能夠再一個我的目標其實不是只有一個我的目標是比照高中六班一個啦"},{"start":760.1,"end":787.478,"text":"但是現在既然一個它有發揮作用那再一個一定是效果比較好還有一個問題我們現在常發現說現在學校寄過好像都沒有什麼意義了因為有學生寄到一個大過兩個大過 三個大過過去我們被寄過我們那個時代三個大過退學現在是三個大過沒關係四個大過 五個大過 十個大過都沒有問題它不能退學要嘛就是轉學轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題這個部長您知道嗎"},{"start":788.715,"end":808.624,"text":"那其實我們教育除了這些被記過很多個大過的學生的受教權之外去保護善良願意上課的學生也是很重要對吧所以這是一個問題我在上個會期就有提過我不知道你們有沒有方案那沒關係我這邊具體建議一個我建議啦去找民間基金會合作"},{"start":809.304,"end":821.511,"text":"然後去成立那些中介教育組織讓那些真的在學校已經被記那麼多大過應該就是適應不良了啦在學校已經沒有辦法繼續才會一直被記過嘛找民間的"},{"start":822.83,"end":840.926,"text":"基金會或協會跟他合作成立中介教育組織讓他們獲得其他的中介的教育那我覺得你可以去找人本基金會啦因為人本基金會以人為本愛的教育我相信他們可以提供一個不錯的中介教育組織好不好 你這個部分你也研究一下"},{"start":842.047,"end":853.353,"text":"除了人本基金會是我建議你可以找其他的單位中介組織來解決這個問題還有一件事情現在教師人員有身心調試假三天"},{"start":855.135,"end":881.841,"text":"主席再一下三天身心調適假有吧這個是你們的宣傳說增訂的身心調適假所以現在教師看起來他最多可以請七天的病假可以請七天的試假又最多可以請三天的身心調適假還可以請三天的家庭照顧假對吧 這是說他們最多可以請的假但是部長 七加七加三 加三等於幾"},{"start":883.393,"end":905.924,"text":"在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20對吧我說數學上7加7加3加3是不是等於20沒錯數學啦我問你數學沒錯吧但是7天的病假加7天的試假加3天的身心調試假再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7呀"},{"start":907.878,"end":916.025,"text":"他們這全部都是你可以請沒關係可是不能超過七天沒有啦 這個對不對你都併入市併價計算嘛"},{"start":916.994,"end":939.174,"text":"那对于一个老师而言教育部给我三天的身心调治假好高兴我多三天假然后一般的人也以为说老师好棒喔我还没讲完其他人也觉得说老师好棒喔七天是病假之外又多了三天的身心调治假还有三天的家庭照顾假"},{"start":939.955,"end":952.013,"text":"但大家不知道的是你请了三天的家庭照顾假或你请了三天的身心调治假你嗜病假就剩四天这是一种朝三暮四的概念"},{"start":953.717,"end":975.567,"text":"所以部長不要為德不足啦如果你認為身心調適假那麼的重要那個考試院之前說公務人員可以請這個身心調適假配合賴總統健康台灣的願景啊哇 大家都羨慕的不得了不好意思 你請身心調適假你士兵假就少三天所以如果真的認為這個東西那麼重要的話應該要用外加啦你們同不同意"},{"start":979.4,"end":994.065,"text":"我們繼續努力不是不是努力啦同不同意因為你看到主席站起來你就想說是不是隨便講兩句話我就離開沒有沒有我們要問一個比較具體的答案部長我想我們當然"},{"start":995.632,"end":1019.049,"text":"完全了解老師的一個期待那當然從整個一個政府部門 公部門他整體的一個不同的一個職業類別上的一些考量所以我們對老師的一個身心調適叫過去他用試駕他是要自付代理 代課費那我們這邊教育部是來支持你幫他付代課費 這我曉得啦我現在講的是駕有幾天的問題嘛"},{"start":1020.984,"end":1033.748,"text":"對不對 好不好 部長 演繹因為這個不注意站起來 但是我希望真的演繹是不是可以給我們一個說明 好不好可以嗎 可以啊 好 謝謝謝謝月圓"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時27分）請教育部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請鄭部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我想來跟你討論一下缺老師的問題，這個問題其實之前也都問過您。記得8月那時候，我有提出我們應該好好的檢討一下校事會議，有請您去跟基層老師座談，也非常感謝啦！後來我就發現8月的時候，你有到我們板橋來辦了一場跟基層老師的座談會，代表你也是說到做到啦！這一點要給你肯定。但是我不曉得你跟老師座談完之後，對於校事會議，你們現在有什麼改革的方案嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上，大概我們從北、中、南，不僅老師，當然也包含校長、家長，我們事實上也都有一些座談。我們現在發現，原來的校事會議本來是希望解決那些不適任教師及處理不適任教師，透過外聘這些公正的委員來協助處理，但是學校實際在運作的時候，我們看到那個流程是大小事都到校事會議，這個是不對的。所以我們希望以後是真正的不適任教師才走這條流程，其他的應該是從學校的輔導、班級經營的增能或者給老師提醒，甚至有一些教師的行為逾越了專業的層面，但是不至於進到不適任……"],["葉委員元之：校事會議。"],["鄭部長英耀：可能進到是考績或考核，就是這個先分流……"],["葉委員元之：這是一個很……"],["鄭部長英耀：第二個是不具名的，以我們從這一年來所有的data來看，走入不適任的那26位老師都是具名指控的，也就是大部分沒有進入或者不成立的，都是不具名的。所以我們希望減少濫訴，能夠減少造成學校真正運作上不必要的困擾。我想就這個部分，我們未來修正的方向也會把它納進來。"],["葉委員元之：接下來我們就具體討論一下。謝謝你發現了問題，而且也願意解決。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的關心。"],["葉委員元之：因為校事會議真的是很多老師非常痛恨的，它當然有它的功能存在，但是後來已經走到濫訴了。我們可以看幾個數據，這資料是跟你們教育部要的，你看113年4月17日到114年5月30日，校事會議總共開了1,372次，總共有1,124個老師被調查，其中382個是發現根本沒這回事就結案了，而最後停聘只有6個，停聘率大概是1.9%，可見這中間有多少濫訴。這個濫訴，我們現在看到的只是數字而已，可是對老師來說是一個煎熬，他莫名其妙被一個人也不知道是誰檢舉，而且是一個主觀的評論說「這位某某老師很兇」，他就要進入校事會議，要被調查2到4個月。正常來講，校事會議規定是幾個月要完成調查？多久？"],["鄭部長英耀：2個月。"],["葉委員元之：2個月？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以延長1個月，再加1個月。"],["葉委員元之：對，就是最多4個月嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以大概都要被煎熬4個月。我有跟你們調平均調查期間，可是你們沒有統計啦！基本上，校事會議應該要讓它調查時間越短越好啊！你看，如果一個老師他被調查4個月，結果發現「不好意思！你是被冤枉的」，那不是開玩笑嗎？這位老師在上課的時候難道心情都不會受到影響嗎？4個月耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意委員的說法。"],["葉委員元之：所以時間當然要越短越好。然後校事會議還有一個非常不合理的地方，一般來說，如果有人檢舉，要證明他有罪的話，要具體的證據與人事物，結果常常莫名其妙被檢舉後，老師卻要自證無罪。我舉一個例子，有一個網紅老師常常在網路上發表一些跟教育有關的文章，因為寫得非常好，所以有非常多人閱讀。結果莫名其妙被人家檢舉，說他是不是利用他的網紅身分收業配？所以他被送入校事會議，然後他要證明沒有收業配。這不是已經反過來了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我完全同意委員的看法……"],["葉委員元之：檢舉人應該要證明他收業配，怎麼會要他自己去證明沒有收業配？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，所以我們也希望那些沒有負責、不具名的檢舉我們就不再受理……"],["葉委員元之：所以校事會議真的……你雖然初步了解到這個問題的嚴重性，但我覺得還要再更進一步了解，到底在執行上要怎麼做到對老師更尊重，而且不要影響到老師教學。部長，你現在講的應該是要修這一條，對不對？我們直接看，就是「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」第九條第三項，對不對？你現在是要修這條嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：就是檢舉人如果未具真實姓名，或足以識別其身分資訊……後面還有但書，但檢舉內容包括行為人……"],["鄭部長英耀：後面但書那個我們會修掉。"],["葉委員元之：第三項整個修掉，是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：後面但書。"],["葉委員元之：但書修掉？意思就是說，以後只要是匿名檢舉，通通一句「一概不受理」？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：只要匿名檢舉就一概不受理？確定了？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：這個大概什麼時候會修？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在年底之前會……"],["葉委員元之：年底？您現在已經發現問題，而且很嚴重，那麼在這段時間到年底……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們有一些初步的調整，目前也徵詢各地方實際運作上的問題，看怎麼樣在未來能夠更順暢，也在……"],["葉委員元之：我就跟你講這個問題很嚴重，你也願意修，這點要給你肯定。也就是說以後匿名就不受理，但在這個空窗期還要二到三個月時間，所以是不是就直接不受理就好？否則一旦這二、三個月發現有問題，可是匿名的照樣要受理，那不是跟你的想法完全背道而馳嗎？或者你趕快修嘛！如果只是把這條拿掉不是很快嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，委員剛才提到的分流，還有受理、不受理，這是整套的。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["彭署長富源：所以委員指導說，中間能不能先趕快做一些處理？其實我們在10月1日已經先發了行政要求，我們會後給委員。"],["葉委員元之：所謂要求就是從現在開始，如果是匿名的就不受理？"],["彭署長富源：沒有。因為這是法條，所以對這部分學校都知道且會嚴謹執行；但是分流那一塊，還有相關的執行要項，我們10月1日有發文，會後……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，那是分流，我現在講的是匿名。"],["彭署長富源：匿名也會包含學校在運用第九條時的一些想法，他們有做一張表。"],["葉委員元之：好，那就朝這個方向去做，好不好？謝謝署長。","第二個，之所以缺老師其實還有一個問題，也跟部長反映一下。那就是108課綱實施以後，老師的壓力都變大了！以前他們有教材，但108課綱有些課程卻是要求老師編教材，對不對？另外還要交報告，有很多額外的工作要做。雖然說壓力提高，可是相關的待遇、福利並沒有相對提升，所以我這邊提一個建議，能不能高中、國中跟國小的老師可以通通減基本的授課時數？現在高中是十六堂，國中是十八堂，小學是二十堂，就一律減兩個小時。也就是高中十四小時，國中十六小時，小學十八個小時，讓他們有多的時間可以專心去備課，這樣有機會嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員，這當然也是抒解老師教學壓力的一個方式，但因為涉及到地方，也就是雖然是部裡編定的，但地方也有地方的一些規範。事實上隨著108課綱上路，我們也期待也鼓勵大學……因為確實有一些老師本來的專業並沒有……譬如以海洋，或者現在在談的AI高科技產業，該怎麼樣去善用並結合大學的師資？我們也看到臺大……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我的發言時間快到了，現在你就針對我的建議回答，也就是高中、國中、小學各減兩個小時。您剛剛提到牽涉地方，實際上這是政策的問題，教育部是這樣訂定的，當然，你會考慮到經費。如果高中從十六小時減兩個小時，變成十四個小時，你可能會考慮到多出來的課誰教，對吧？其實就直接給他超鐘點津貼就好了！我幫你算過了，這樣大概也差不了多少錢，可能一個老師一個月大概多三、四千塊。臺北市有算過……"],["鄭部長英耀：現在也有老師覺得超鐘點已經不勝負荷了！"],["葉委員元之：也可以再增嘛！如果你有錢……"],["鄭部長英耀：他們也不希望……"],["葉委員元之：我還沒講完。臺北市有算過，如果是這樣子運作的話，一年大概增加兩億左右，全國大概就增加二、三十億。所以一年只要編二、三十億，全國的老師就可以減兩個小時的鐘點；如果是超鐘點的話，全國大概就增加二十幾億。"],["鄭部長英耀：剛剛委員提到臺北市，以臺北市的財政來說，其實我覺得臺北市可以優先來做……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我還沒講完，我還沒有講完。我希望教育部可以統一做，由教育部直接編預算！你們之前送來的國家韌性特別預算裡，你覺得高教韌性有問題，所以就編了兩百億，光高教就編了兩百億！但我認為國教也同等重要！我們支持你編預算給高教，不過既然你高教都可以編兩百億，國教我幫你算過大概二、三十億。你說：對不起，這個錢我沒有！那我就要替國教老師感到委屈，也吃醋！部長為什麼好像對高教比較重視？在特別預算的時候……"],["鄭部長英耀：委員很清楚，我本身也是小學老師出身……"],["葉委員元之：對，所以不能忘本！"],["鄭部長英耀：國民教育事實上絕對……"],["葉委員元之：部長，就像上次跟你講的，譬如說現在缺軍人，所以我們提升軍人的待遇。同樣的，缺老師當然就在待遇上面……也許沒有辦法達到他們百分之百的期待，但這是一種尊重！所以我提出這樣的要求。也許你第一次聽或怎麼樣，不過你研議一下，好不好？二十億，相較於你給高教兩百億，其實不算多，但可以讓老師們獲得一定的尊重。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，基本上我對國民教育……教育部訂定最基本的規範，也同時鼓勵各地方縣市政府因地制宜，包含怎麼樣從財政對國民教育、對老師有一個支持……"],["葉委員元之：好，部長就是推給地方政府！您就肩膀挑起來啦……"],["鄭部長英耀：不是推給地方政府……"],["葉委員元之：這是統一的政策……"],["鄭部長英耀：我不是推給地方政府……"],["葉委員元之：你先研究一下，這是統一的政策，你先……"],["鄭部長英耀：委員講的我聽進去，我們也願意來研議，但是我也希望地方政府……"],["葉委員元之：可以啊，你就找地方政府一起來討論，總是要有人起頭、帶頭當領頭羊嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：這件事情如果你研議之後發現值得做，屆時大家再來討論財源的問題。中央覺得二十億對老師好，我願意花，有guts，我們給你肯定啊！如果你想說，高教我比較願意支持，給兩百億沒問題，但是國教二十億我覺得我很捨不得……那我們就來討論，對不對？好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我剛才跟委員報告過，我願意研議，但是也請委員不要跟我這樣講……"],["葉委員元之：好啦，部長，那就研議。一個月內，好不好？一個月內。"],["鄭部長英耀：請不要跟我說我對國教不重視！"],["葉委員元之：那就展現出重視的態度給大家看一下。這是一個月內。","第三個議題，針對校園的安全我一直非常關心，部長應該也知道。也非常謝謝您在去年給了每個學校一名校安人員，國中校安人員。我問過很多國中，他們都覺得即便是只有一個，非常少，但那一位也扮演很重要的角色。我還要再跟你請求，今年能不能再多一個，國中部分，好不好？再一個。今天是第一次提出，今天我在這個會議上第一次質詢，所以我都先把議題拋出來。我的目標其實不是只有一個，我的目標是比照高中六班一個。但是既然一個有發揮作用，那麼再一個的效果一定比較好。","還有一個問題，我們現在發現學校記過好像沒有什麼意義了！因為有學生記到一個大過、兩個大過，甚至三個大過。過去我們被記過，在我們那個時代三個大過就退學了！現在是三個大過沒關係，四個大過、五個大過、十個大過都沒有問題，因為不能退學，所以只能轉學，而轉學就成為另外一個學校的問題，這個部長知道嗎？其實教育除了關係這些被記很多個大過的學生的受教權之外，保護善良、願意上課的學生也是很重要的，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以這是一個問題，我在上個會期就有提過，我不知道你們有沒有方案？沒關係，我這邊也具體建議一個，我建議去找民間基金會合作，成立中介教育組織。那些學生在學校已經被記那麼多個大過，應該就是適應不良了！就是已經沒有辦法繼續在學校，才會一直被記過，所以找民間的基金會或協會合作，成立中介教育組織，讓他們獲得其他的中繼教育。我覺得你可以去找人本基金會，因為人本基金會是以人為本、愛的教育，我相信它們是可以提供不錯的中繼教育組織，好不好？這個部分你也研究一下，好不好？除了人本基金會是我建議的外，你也可以找其他的單位、中介組織來解決這個問題。","然後還有一件事情，現在教師人員有身心調適假3天，對吧？主席再等一下！3天身心調適假，有吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，有。"],["葉委員元之：這個是你們的宣傳啦！說增訂了身心調適假，教師看起來最多可以請7天的病假，可以請7天的事假，最多又可以請3天的身心調適假，還可以請3天的家庭照顧假，對吧？這都是他們最多可以請的假嘛！但是部長，7加7加3加3等於幾？在數學上7加7加3加3是不是應該等於20，對吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：我看它到底是內含還是……如果純粹……"],["葉委員元之：我是說在數學上7加7加3加3，是不是等於20？沒錯！數學啦！我問你數學，沒錯啦！但是7天的病假加7天的事假加3天的身心調適假，再加3天的家庭照顧假等於7啦！你可以請沒關係，可是不能超過7天。"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有啦！這個……"],["葉委員元之：對不對？都併入事、病假計算嘛！對於一個老師而言，教育部給我3天的身心調適假，好高興，我多3天假！然後一般的人也以為說，哇，老師好棒喔……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，病假歸病假……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，我還沒有講完。其他人也覺得說，哇，老師好棒喔！7天事、病假之外又多了3天的身心調適假，還有3天的家庭照顧假。但大家不知道的是請了3天的家庭照顧假，或請了3天的身心調適假，事、病假就剩4天了，這是一種朝三暮四的概念，部長不要為德不卒，如果認為身心調適假那麼重要，考試院之前說公務人員可以請身心調適假配合賴總統健康臺灣的願景，大家都羨慕得不得了。不好意思，請了身心調適假，事、病假就少3天，所以如果真的認為這個是那麼重要的話，應該要用外加，你們同不同意？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們繼續努力。"],["葉委員元之：不是努力啦！同不同意？你看到主席站起來，就想是不是隨便講兩句話，我就會離開？"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["葉委員元之：我通常會問到一個比較具體的答案，部長？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們當然完全瞭解老師的期待，從整個政府部門、公部門整體不同的職業類別上的考量，所以，我們對老師的身心調適假，過去用事假，他是要自付代理、代課費，教育部是來支持……"],["葉委員元之：你幫他付代課費，這個我曉得啦！我現在講的是假有幾天的問題？對不對？好不好？部長研議，因為主席站起來了，但這個部分我真的希望研議，是不是可以給我們一個說明，好不好？可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：可以啊！"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，謝謝行政官員，請回座。","先說明，等一下在萬美玲委員質詢結束之後休息10分鐘。","現在先進行羅廷瑋委員的質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}}