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\"好\", \"start\": 656.762, \"end\": 656.962, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 656.962, \"end\": 657.062, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 657.062, \"end\": 657.283, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"供\", \"start\": 657.283, \"end\": 657.683, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 657.683, \"end\": 657.743, \"score\": 0.664}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 657.743, \"end\": 657.864, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"簡\"}, {\"word\": \"單\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 657.864, \"end\": 657.884, \"score\": 0.04}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,778 --> 00:00:13,199\n謝謝主席麻煩請局長好謝謝主席麻煩早\n\n2\n00:00:14,001 --> 00:00:32,226\n局長早局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個\n\n3\n00:00:43,910 --> 00:01:02,362\n還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了支通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊\n\n4\n00:01:04,804 --> 00:01:09,048\n一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為\n\n5\n00:01:26,323 --> 00:01:30,006\n除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們\n\n6\n00:01:52,022 --> 00:01:53,483\n除了剛剛王昭偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被\n\n7\n00:02:08,229 --> 00:02:12,070\n公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣\n\n8\n00:02:31,425 --> 00:02:33,066\n謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護\n\n9\n00:02:53,135 --> 00:03:16,156\n那之後在處理上等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會受到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話\n\n10\n00:03:16,917 --> 00:03:28,767\n要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面那我剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份\n\n11\n00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:47,921\n名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報\n\n12\n00:03:48,422 --> 00:03:52,744\n沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常\n\n13\n00:04:17,153 --> 00:04:24,516\n長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道\n\n14\n00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,761\n可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請\n\n15\n00:04:59,950 --> 00:05:02,731\n國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公布那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞\n\n16\n00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:48,508\n這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明\n\n17\n00:05:49,628 --> 00:06:12,339\n因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長\n\n18\n00:06:17,361 --> 00:06:21,625\n其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗\n\n19\n00:06:35,618 --> 00:06:59,228\n可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民\n\n20\n00:07:02,429 --> 00:07:05,351\n那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊\n\n21\n00:07:20,623 --> 00:07:27,707\n他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做\n\n22\n00:07:39,494 --> 00:07:40,995\n剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼\n\n23\n00:07:53,262 --> 00:08:09,245\n而且還是我們國安局下令都這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要在更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整這已經不是溝通局長\n\n24\n00:08:21,887 --> 00:08:29,975\n你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人\n\n25\n00:08:43,067 --> 00:08:46,769\n他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記\n\n26\n00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:10,884\n註記的時間有多長有沒有這我們來瞭解因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好那我現在就把問題提出來這非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的\n\n27\n00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:56,280\n如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好\n\n28\n00:10:01,401 --> 00:10:06,403\n我也說明一下就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的計條上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統副總統從過去到現在都一樣你有總統副總統行政院長或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好\n\n29\n00:10:22,088 --> 00:10:26,531\n其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎\n\n30\n00:10:48,288 --> 00:10:57,884\n安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好了一個禮拜可以嗎夠不夠可以好我們來提供這一個很簡單的問題謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1778\t13199\t謝謝主席麻煩請局長好謝謝主席麻煩早\n14001\t32226\t局長早 局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局 新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個\n43910\t62362\t還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了支通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊\n64804\t69048\t一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為\n86323\t90006\t除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們\n112022\t113483\t除了剛剛王昭偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被\n128229\t132070\t公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣\n151425\t153066\t謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護\n173135\t196156\t那之後在處理上 等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒 可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人 可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會受到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話\n196917\t208767\t要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面那我剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份\n210000\t227921\t名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報\n228422\t232744\t沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常\n257153\t264516\t長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道\n275160\t278761\t可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請\n299950\t302731\t國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公布那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞\n323960\t348508\t這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明\n349628\t372339\t因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長\n377361\t381625\t其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗\n395618\t419228\t可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在 坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民\n422429\t425351\t那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊\n440623\t447707\t他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做\n459494\t460995\t剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼\n473262\t489245\t而且還是我們國安局下令都這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要在更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整這已經不是溝通 局長\n501887\t509975\t你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個 合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人\n523067\t526769\t他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記\n544440\t550884\t註記的時間有多長 有沒有這我們來瞭解 因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好 那我現在就把問題提出來這非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的\n571516\t596280\t如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好\n601401\t606403\t我也說明一下就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的計條上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統副總統從過去到現在都一樣你有總統副總統行政院長或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好\n622088\t626531\t其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎\n648288\t657884\t安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好了一個禮拜可以嗎 夠不夠可以 好 我們來提供這一個很簡單的問題 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩請局長好謝謝主席麻煩早\n局長早 局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局 新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個\n還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了支通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊\n一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為\n除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們\n除了剛剛王昭偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被\n公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣\n謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護\n那之後在處理上 等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒 可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人 可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會受到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話\n要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面那我剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份\n名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報\n沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常\n長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道\n可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請\n國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公布那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞\n這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明\n因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長\n其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗\n可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在 坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民\n那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊\n他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做\n剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼\n而且還是我們國安局下令都這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要在更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整這已經不是溝通 局長\n你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個 合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人\n他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記\n註記的時間有多長 有沒有這我們來瞭解 因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好 那我現在就把問題提出來這非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的\n如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好\n我也說明一下就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的計條上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統副總統從過去到現在都一樣你有總統副總統行政院長或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好\n其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎\n安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好了一個禮拜可以嗎 夠不夠可以 好 我們來提供這一個很簡單的問題 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.778 --> 00:13.199\n謝謝主席麻煩請局長好謝謝主席麻煩早\n\n00:14.001 --> 00:32.226\n局長早局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個\n\n00:43.910 --> 01:02.362\n還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了支通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊\n\n01:04.804 --> 01:09.048\n一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為\n\n01:26.323 --> 01:30.006\n除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們\n\n01:52.022 --> 01:53.483\n除了剛剛王昭偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被\n\n02:08.229 --> 02:12.070\n公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣\n\n02:31.425 --> 02:33.066\n謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護\n\n02:53.135 --> 03:16.156\n那之後在處理上等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會受到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話\n\n03:16.917 --> 03:28.767\n要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面那我剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份\n\n03:30.000 --> 03:47.921\n名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報\n\n03:48.422 --> 03:52.744\n沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常\n\n04:17.153 --> 04:24.516\n長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道\n\n04:35.160 --> 04:38.761\n可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請\n\n04:59.950 --> 05:02.731\n國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公布那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞\n\n05:23.960 --> 05:48.508\n這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明\n\n05:49.628 --> 06:12.339\n因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長\n\n06:17.361 --> 06:21.625\n其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗\n\n06:35.618 --> 06:59.228\n可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民\n\n07:02.429 --> 07:05.351\n那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊\n\n07:20.623 --> 07:27.707\n他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做\n\n07:39.494 --> 07:40.995\n剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼\n\n07:53.262 --> 08:09.245\n而且還是我們國安局下令都這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要在更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整這已經不是溝通局長\n\n08:21.887 --> 08:29.975\n你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人\n\n08:43.067 --> 08:46.769\n他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記\n\n09:04.440 --> 09:10.884\n註記的時間有多長有沒有這我們來瞭解因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好那我現在就把問題提出來這非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的\n\n09:31.516 --> 09:56.280\n如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好\n\n10:01.401 --> 10:06.403\n我也說明一下就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的計條上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統副總統從過去到現在都一樣你有總統副總統行政院長或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好\n\n10:22.088 --> 10:26.531\n其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎\n\n10:48.288 --> 10:57.884\n安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好了一個禮拜可以嗎夠不夠可以好我們來提供這一個很簡單的問題謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.778,"end":13.199,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請局長好謝謝主席麻煩早"},{"start":14.001,"end":32.226,"text":"局長早 局長剛剛其實有非常多的委員其實也都有在關切就這一次針對中國大陸對於他的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些台灣軍情局還有政戰局 新戰大隊以及民眾的這個部分因為剛剛其實也討論了很多那他們還公布像軍情局的這個"},{"start":43.91,"end":62.362,"text":"還有新站大隊還有相關民眾的各自照片甚至工作地點這是繼去年今年初還有去年底他們在這些又一次去年底他也公佈了支通電軍相關的人員他的各自以後他這一次針對我們國安團隊"},{"start":64.804,"end":69.048,"text":"一些相關人員的個資不管他的因為國防部第一時間出來當然他有他有否認我們現在姑且不討論這個部分因為其實他刻意操作不實的訊息也好或者他不是事實也好可是因為我們現在比較擔心的就是因為"},{"start":86.323,"end":90.006,"text":"除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外那國防部長其實他也對媒體說對於直通電軍他的這些網路作業人員事實上我們有相關的人員他會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為也會用國家情報工作法來進行加以保護可是我們看到其實他顯然是不足的因為我們"},{"start":112.022,"end":113.483,"text":"除了剛剛王昭偉有提到在貸款的部分我們也有接獲民眾的陳情就是他退以後在被公布的名單當中其實他後來到民間公司去上班可是當那個公司看到他被"},{"start":128.229,"end":132.07,"text":"公布以後因為他們也是跟網路相關的公司他會覺得你是不是來臥底的或者你有這樣的背景我們根本不敢用所以對他們造成工作上面的困擾所以身為國安團隊的大家長目前我們執行的情形如何就像剛剛國防部要做的這些作為那目前我們執行的情形怎麼樣"},{"start":151.425,"end":153.066,"text":"謝委員提到這個問題就我們國安團隊來講當然會去在意這樣的一個事件不過因為我們不適合公開的去說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵我們現在不要證實這些我剛剛講的就是說你要怎麼保護"},{"start":173.135,"end":196.156,"text":"那之後在處理上 等一下也許夜館單位可以說明我們這邊是有提醒 可能要針對假如萬一真的有被揭露身份的話針對當事人必須要有一個輔導或是相關協助的機制而且不只是當事人 可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候都會受到一些干擾所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關的單位一旦遇到萬一真的有這個狀況的話"},{"start":196.917,"end":208.767,"text":"要啟動這樣的一個相關的機制第二部分是在國防部的系統裡面那我剛也在跟一些媒體朋友跟委員做說明常常在身份"},{"start":210,"end":227.921,"text":"名職的去識別化的部分可能還可以再做進一步的加強因為國防部的官兵他會不斷的調動單位那有些公開資訊或是我們國防部相關的媒宣報導都會提到這些人的身份那甚至有些人他是擔任過記者的那他的報導文章都可以來收報"},{"start":228.422,"end":232.744,"text":"沒有關係因為你剛剛說明的這些其實現在其實他顯然可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人因為我們看到這兩年其實被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員可是國安局就沒有所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況他被保護的這種舉措到底是怎麼是差異在哪裡我想這個可以去思考因為這樣沒有不然沒有人敢做這些工作因為他不會常"},{"start":257.153,"end":264.516,"text":"長久的終身他不是終身職嘛那這些單位的弟兄他不可能他不是終身職他在任職以後他就會產生恐懼那以後沒有人敢做這些工作所以你一而再再而三這個也算是一種任職作戰啦你一而再再而三你說他是假的或真的不知道"},{"start":275.16,"end":278.761,"text":"可是他被公布以後他就是受到干擾不管你在貸款不管你在就學不管你在其他保險或者任職上面其實都會受到影響所以本期有幾個問題就是說這些人都在台灣他為什麼會被整批的公布個資這個背後的原因是什麼那別名措施跟內部控管相關的作為是不是不夠周延這個請"},{"start":299.95,"end":302.731,"text":"國安單位就是國安局這邊其實去做一個檢視那國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎因為你一直不斷在發聲而且他整批整批耶那另外這兩年剛剛提到的都是國安局所屬的成員是沒有被公布那都是國防部的那到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞"},{"start":323.96,"end":348.508,"text":"這個也請國安局一併檢視因為你們這一部分都有在做那就這個部分我們希望可以儘速可以提出來怎麼樣去做一個統一的做法或者要如何圍堵就這個部分儘速給我們一些相關的作為應處也有開過一些跨部會跨單位的協調我們把那個相關狀況可以跟委員報告部分來跟委員做說明"},{"start":349.628,"end":372.339,"text":"因為我們希望可以保護到我們所有相關的這些所有的單位的弟兄那另外剛剛也有提到我們都是說有關疑慮所以你不可以不可以被跟監不可以被偷拍即使你是民意代表你是立委你是行政首長等等可是我們這一次在10月10號的國慶日當天我們有一個里的里長"},{"start":377.361,"end":381.625,"text":"其實他也是受邀到國慶典禮上面去參加這個慶典活動不過他們那個禮因為在10月2號的時候曾經有一個到司法院司法大樓去做陳抗的動作這是合法的申請的陳抗"},{"start":395.618,"end":419.228,"text":"可是他們有被通知或被關切希望在國慶大典的時候不要去影響到整個慶典的進行這個部分其實也請里長去安撫所有的相關陳抗的民眾那里長大概也都配合了可是我們在國慶日當天還看到有一些便衣的憲兵其實是跟在 坐在他們的旁邊因為你既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民"},{"start":422.429,"end":425.351,"text":"那你去的時候便衣坐在旁邊也就算了甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定的人員去做拍攝剛剛說偷拍就不行了你是直接拿著鏡頭拍那你讓被拍的人因為他也沒有任何的作為啊"},{"start":440.623,"end":447.707,"text":"他之前去的是合法的陳抗的行為啊那你既然去參加這樣的慶典大家也都認為說那是國家的一個慶祝活動大家也不會有什麼樣的作為可是還是被這樣對待他不但覺得受到侮辱受到威脅甚至覺得像賊一樣我們為什麼要這麼做"},{"start":459.494,"end":460.995,"text":"剛剛大家都講的說不可以去跟拍甚至不可以有這樣的一個監視的活動甚至偷偷拍都不行那你公然的拍為什麼"},{"start":473.262,"end":489.245,"text":"而且還是我們國安局下令都這個部分我來瞭解一下個案的狀況那大概因為剛剛陳俊永委員也在提醒我們國家重要的慶典要加強安危警話的部署安危計畫的安危跟這個沒有關係吧因為你進去你都會檢查對會檢查我們相關的人員的進出那都會做一些檢查那可能在執法上假如說需要在更禮貌的來跟民眾做溝通或來做一些調整這已經不是溝通 局長"},{"start":501.887,"end":509.975,"text":"你在一個自由民主的國家當我們很多委員在關切說我們不可以去跟拍不可以去有這樣的行為的時候你是公然的對著民眾而且你邀請人家去的我想要請教幾個就是兩個問題第一個 合法成抗它為什麼會被註記因為你們是針對特定人"},{"start":523.067,"end":526.769,"text":"他是不是有註記不然你如果來城炕有這麼多人為什麼你會特別來參加慶典活動的那麼多人你就單獨對特定的人去做這樣的一個就是跟拍就是對著鏡頭對著他拍然後一直跟著旁邊也都坐著我們憲兵的人員那這個是不是有註記"},{"start":544.44,"end":550.884,"text":"註記的時間有多長 有沒有這我們來瞭解 因為委員提的個案我並不清楚是哪一位個人好 那我現在就把問題提出來這非常不恰當今天如果說在我們國家可以公然這樣做因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動一個參選人士官長也是被要求說要去拍結果他就拿著鏡頭就直接對著他拍後來其實他就是被拔掉了因為在我們國家其實是不允許的"},{"start":571.516,"end":596.28,"text":"如果他沒有違法他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的那這是第一個問題第二個就是他執行的技巧上面如果像這樣的事情不要再發生因為你執行的技巧讓我們所有的國人他沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣子的對待他剛剛提到的他就受到侮辱的感覺他非常不舒服所以這包括執行技巧我們也希望一併的檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我們一個書面報告一個禮拜之內好不好"},{"start":601.401,"end":606.403,"text":"我也說明一下就因為這個安委計畫它有它的必要性那在執行的計條上或是個案的部分我們也有參加很多的慶典活動有很多重要的人物都有參加不管你是總統副總統從過去到現在都一樣你有總統副總統行政院長或者甚至其他重要的訪兵也好"},{"start":622.088,"end":626.531,"text":"其實你的安全的一個作為處置其實你是在特殊的場域當你邀請所有的人來的時候你就不應該這樣做所以這個沒有什麼安危的考量這我們必須再提醒一次而是你在我們國家裡面執行這樣的是不恰當的行為而且你去做這樣的註記我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗或者什麼樣的對象你才有做這樣的註記嗎"},{"start":648.288,"end":657.884,"text":"安委的部分我們有他的必要性啦然後個人的部分我們來瞭解會後我們再來瞭解好一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告好了一個禮拜可以嗎 夠不夠可以 好 我們來提供這一個很簡單的問題 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時39分）謝謝主席。麻煩請局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：局長早。剛剛非常多的委員都在關切這一次中國大陸的國家安全部以及福建省公安局公布的這些資料，包括軍情局，還有政戰局心戰大隊以及民眾的部分，剛剛其實也討論了很多。他們還公布像軍情局、心戰大隊，還有相關民眾的個資、照片，甚至工作地點。這是繼去年底、今年初，他們又一次……去年底他們公布了資通電軍相關人員的個資，這一次則是針對我們國安團隊一些相關人員的個資。當然第一時間國防部有出來否認，我們現在姑且不討論這個部分，不論他是刻意操作不實的訊息也好，或者不是事實也好，可是我們現在比較擔心的就是，除了國防部強烈回應說實施認知作戰以外，國防部長也對媒體說，對於資通電軍的這些網路作業人員，事實上會採取別名措施跟內部控管的相關作為，也會用國家情報工作法加以保護。可是我們看到顯然是不足的，因為除了剛剛王召委提到貸款的部分，我們也有接獲民眾陳情，就是他退役以後出現在被公布的名單當中，雖然他後來到民間公司去上班，因為那也是跟網路相關的公司，當公司看到他被公布以後，會覺得他是不是來臥底的，或者他有這樣的背景，公司根本不敢用，對他們造成工作上的困擾。身為國安團隊的大家長，目前你們執行的情形如何？就像剛剛國防部說要做的這些作為，目前你們執行的情形怎麼樣？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題。就我們國安團隊來講，當然會在意這樣的事件，不過我們不適合公開地說明或證實他們是不是國安單位的人或是國軍的官兵。"],["馬委員文君：我們現在不要證實這些，我剛剛講的就是，你要怎麼保護？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，事後處理等一下也許業管單位可以說明，我們這邊有提醒，萬一真的有被揭露身分，針對當事人必須要有輔導或是相關協助的機制，而且不只是當事人，可能連他的家人在進出對岸的時候，都會受到一些干擾，所以這部分我們有特別提醒國防部的相關單位，萬一真的有這樣的狀況，要啟動相關機制。第二個部分是在國防部的系統裡面，我剛剛也跟一些媒體朋友及委員說明，在身分、名字的去識別化可能還可以再進一步加強。因為國防部的官兵會不斷的調動單位，有些公開資訊或是國防部相關的媒宣報導，都會提到這些人的身分，甚至有些人是擔任過記者的，他報導過的文章都可以來蒐報，這部分我們會來提醒。"],["馬委員文君：局長，沒有關係，因為從你剛剛說明的這些可知，顯然現在可能沒有辦法去保護到這些人。我們看到這兩年被公布的都是國防部相關的單位跟人員，可是國安局就沒有，所以他到底是發生了什麼樣的狀況？被保護的這種舉措到底差異在哪裡？我想這個可以去思考，不然沒有人敢做這些工作。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["馬委員文君：因為他不是終身職，這些單位的弟兄不是終身職，他在任職以後就會產生恐懼，那以後沒有人敢做這些工作。因為一而再、再而三發生，這個也算是一種認知作戰。一而再、再而三發生，你說不知道它是假的或真的，可是他被公布以後就是受到干擾，不管貸款、就學、其他的保險或者任職，其實都會受到影響，所以本席有幾個問題，這些人都在臺灣，為什麼會被整批的公布個資？這個背後的原因是什麼？別名措施跟內部控管相關作為是不是不夠周延？這個請國安單位，就是國安局去檢視。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：國安團隊的反情報工作是失靈了嗎？因為一直不斷在發生，而且是整批、整批。另外，剛剛提到這兩年國安局所屬的成員並沒有被公布，都是國防部的，到底國防部的保護作為有哪些漏洞？這個也請國安局一併檢視。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：因為你們這部分都有在做。就這個部分，我們希望可以儘速提出怎麼樣統一或者要如何圍堵的作法。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分，儘速給我們一些相關的作為、應處，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。也有開過一些跨部會、跨單位的協調，我們把相關狀況可以跟委員報告的部分向委員說明。"],["馬委員文君：我們希望可以保護到所有相關單位的弟兄。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的。"],["馬委員文君：另外，剛剛也有提到，我們都說有國安疑慮，所以不可以被跟監、不可以被偷拍，即使是民意代表、立委或行政首長等等，可是這一次在10月10號國慶日當天，有一個里的里長其實是受邀參加國慶典禮活動，不過那個里在10月2號曾經到司法院司法大樓陳抗。雖然這是合法申請的陳抗，可是他們有被通知或被關切，希望在國慶大典的時候不要影響到整個慶典的進行，也請里長安撫所有陳抗的民眾，里長也都配合了。可是我們在國慶日當天，還是看到有一些便衣的憲兵跟著坐在他們的旁邊。既然邀請了當地的里長跟里民，便衣坐在旁邊也就算了，甚至還拿著鏡頭對著特定人員拍攝。剛剛說偷拍就不行了，你們卻直接拿著鏡頭拍，而被拍的人沒有任何的作為，他之前去的是合法的陳抗行為，既然參加這樣的慶典，大家都認為那是國家的一個慶祝活動，也不會有什麼樣的作為，可是還是被這樣對待。他不但覺得受到侮辱、威脅，甚至覺得像賊一樣，你們為什麼要這麼做？剛剛大家都說不可以跟拍、不可以有監視的活動，甚至偷偷拍都不行，你們卻公然地拍，為什麼？而且還是國安局下令的！"],["蔡局長明彥：我來了解一下個案的狀況，因為剛剛陳俊宇委員也在提醒我們，國家重要的慶典要加強安維計畫的警衛部署。"],["馬委員文君：安維跟這個沒有關係吧？因為進去，你們都會檢查。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，會檢查。我們對相關人員的進出都會做一些檢查。假如在執法上需要再更禮貌地跟民眾溝通或做一些調整，我們會來做必要的說明。"],["馬委員文君：這已經不是溝通。在一個自由民主的國家，當很多委員在關切不可以跟拍、不可以有這樣行為的時候，你是公然地對著民眾，而且是你邀請人家去的。我想要請教兩個問題，第一個、他合法陳抗，為什麼會被註記？因為你們是針對特定人，是不是有註記？不然來陳抗的有這麼多人，來參加慶典活動的也有那麼多人，你就單獨對特定人跟拍，就是鏡頭對著他拍，然後一直跟著，旁邊也都坐著憲兵人員，這個是不是有註記？註記的時間有多長？有沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來了解，因為委員提的個案，我並不清楚是哪一位個人，所以我事後來了解。"],["馬委員文君：好，我現在就把問題提出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["馬委員文君：今天如果在我們國家可以公然這樣做，非常不恰當！因為之前在高雄的一個選舉活動，一個士官長也是被要求要去拍參選人，結果就拿鏡頭直接對著人拍，後來他就被拔掉了，因為在我們國家其實是不允許的。如果他沒有違法，他之前的陳抗也是合法申請的，這是第一個問題。第二個就是執行的技巧，希望像這樣的事情不要再發生。因為執行的技巧讓所有的國人在沒有犯法的情況之下被這樣對待，我剛剛提到他有受到侮辱的感覺、非常不舒服，所以包括執行技巧，我們也希望一併檢討以後或者局長了解以後給我一份書面報告，一個禮拜之內，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。因為安維計畫有它的必要性，那在執行的技巧上或是個案的部分，我們再來了解。"],["馬委員文君：我們也有參加很多慶典活動，有很多重要的人物都有參加，不管是總統、副總統。從過去到現在都一樣，總統、副總統、行政院長，甚至其他重要的訪賓，其實你安全的作為與處置是在特殊的場域，當你邀請所有的人來的時候就不應該這樣做，所以這個沒有什麼安維的考量，我們必須再提醒一次，而是你在我們國家裡面執行是不恰當的行為。而且你去做這樣的註記，我們也想要知道你是對所有陳抗還是針對什麼樣的對象你才做這樣的註記。"],["蔡局長明彥：安維的部分，我們有它的必要性，然後個案的部分我們來了解……"],["主席：會後提供報告，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：會後我們再來了解，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：好，一個禮拜之內給我們書面報告，好不好？"],["主席：一個禮拜可以嗎？夠不夠？"],["蔡局長明彥：可以，我們來提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：這應該是很簡單的問題，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，各位請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}}