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79.422, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"位\", \"start\": 79.422, \"end\": 79.542, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 79.542, \"end\": 80.062, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"譬\", \"start\": 80.062, \"end\": 80.142, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 80.142, \"end\": 80.222, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 80.222, \"end\": 80.543, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 80.543, \"end\": 81.364, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 81.364, \"end\": 81.564, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 81.564, \"end\": 81.724, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"導\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 81.724, \"end\": 81.744, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 82.825, \"end\": 92.02, \"text\": \"那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 82.825, \"end\": 82.945, \"score\": 0.996}, 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這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有 這個整合\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 461.01, \"end\": 461.551, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 461.551, \"end\": 461.791, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 461.791, \"end\": 461.871, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 461.871, \"end\": 461.991, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 461.991, \"end\": 462.191, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 462.191, \"end\": 462.451, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 462.451, \"end\": 462.692, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 462.692, \"end\": 462.852, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"究\", \"start\": 462.852, \"end\": 463.492, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 463.492, \"end\": 463.593, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 463.593, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"望\", \"start\": 575.547, \"end\": 575.868, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"安\", \"start\": 575.868, \"end\": 576.328, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 576.328, \"end\": 576.528, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 576.528, \"end\": 577.029, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"跨\", \"start\": 577.029, \"end\": 577.309, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"派\", \"start\": 577.309, \"end\": 577.449, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 577.449, \"end\": 577.57, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 577.57, \"end\": 577.95, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"夠\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"予\", \"start\": 577.95, \"end\": 578.05, \"score\": 0.798}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 578.05, \"end\": 578.13, \"score\": 0.854}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 578.13, \"end\": 578.27, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 578.27, \"end\": 578.47, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"支\", \"start\": 578.47, \"end\": 578.671, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"持\", \"start\": 578.671, \"end\": 578.691, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:00,535\n麻煩請局長來局長\n\n2\n00:00:10,076 --> 00:00:34,812\n謝謝主席陳委員早啊局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說\n\n3\n00:00:35,939 --> 00:00:59,321\n有一句話我想要請局長請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核呃我說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核不行就你們的了解好個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話\n\n4\n00:01:00,262 --> 00:01:21,744\n那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的\n\n5\n00:01:22,825 --> 00:01:32,020\n那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍\n\n6\n00:01:33,206 --> 00:01:54,429\n那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多\n\n7\n00:01:55,009 --> 00:02:12,590\n那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動他非常的積極\n\n8\n00:02:13,311 --> 00:02:28,972\n也布建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的組織另外一個部分是在於說這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制不只是國安情報團隊\n\n9\n00:02:29,753 --> 00:02:53,902\n我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能\n\n10\n00:02:54,082 --> 00:03:12,703\n局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的\n\n11\n00:03:13,700 --> 00:03:27,584\n那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內\n\n12\n00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:47,224\n國安會秘書長他的這個秘書那後來跟他外交部都有類似這樣的狀況這其實是非常嚴肅的問題所以我必須要提到說我們不能夠在事後抓到那包含我現在手上的這個是美國國防部的反情報及安全署的這些資訊也就是說如果我們\n\n13\n00:03:48,188 --> 00:04:08,117\n沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制\n\n14\n00:04:08,757 --> 00:04:34,457\n你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部衛福部健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情\n\n15\n00:04:35,253 --> 00:05:00,524\n因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情啊因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環嘛所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話\n\n16\n00:05:01,837 --> 00:05:27,850\n麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事務的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次\n\n17\n00:05:29,707 --> 00:05:49,445\n一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過\n\n18\n00:05:50,891 --> 00:06:06,589\n跟委員說明一下啦因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中啦那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替吳理事長來說明泡沫資料我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會\n\n19\n00:06:09,411 --> 00:06:31,478\n從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊\n\n20\n00:06:32,558 --> 00:06:49,048\n所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去\n\n21\n00:06:51,772 --> 00:07:18,789\n如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風時也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐\n\n22\n00:07:21,371 --> 00:07:40,069\n或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範\n\n23\n00:07:41,010 --> 00:07:59,048\n那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有這個整合\n\n24\n00:07:59,648 --> 00:08:23,528\n要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統它確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話\n\n25\n00:08:24,930 --> 00:08:42,632\n再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借選這件事情我是很重視的因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預\n\n26\n00:08:44,014 --> 00:08:56,001\n我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化\n\n27\n00:08:56,943 --> 00:09:24,416\n然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟\n\n28\n00:09:24,696 --> 00:09:38,691\n最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n90\t535\t麻煩請局長來 局長\n10076\t34812\t謝謝主席 陳委員早啊局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說\n35939\t59321\t有一句話我想要請局長 請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核呃 我說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核 不行 就你們的了解好 個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係 那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話 那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話\n60262\t81744\t那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的\n82825\t92020\t那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍\n93206\t114429\t那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多\n115009\t132590\t那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動他非常的積極\n133311\t148972\t也布建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的組織另外一個部分是在於說這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制不只是國安情報團隊\n149753\t173902\t我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能\n174082\t192703\t局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的\n193700\t207584\t那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內\n210319\t227224\t國安會秘書長他的這個秘書那後來跟他外交部都有類似這樣的狀況這其實是非常嚴肅的問題所以我必須要提到說我們不能夠在事後抓到那包含我現在手上的這個是美國國防部的反情報及安全署的這些資訊也就是說如果我們\n228188\t248117\t沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制\n248757\t274457\t你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部衛福部健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情\n275253\t300524\t因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情啊因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環嘛所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話\n301837\t327850\t麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事務的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次\n329707\t349445\t一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過\n350891\t366589\t跟委員說明一下啦因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中啦那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替吳理事長來說明泡沫資料我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會\n369411\t391478\t從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊\n392558\t409048\t所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去\n411772\t438789\t如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風時也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐\n441371\t460069\t或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範\n461010\t479048\t那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是 這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有 這個整合\n479648\t503528\t要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統它確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話\n504930\t522632\t再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借選這件事情我是很重視的因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預\n524014\t536001\t我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化\n536943\t564416\t然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟\n564696\t578691\t最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩請局長來 局長\n謝謝主席 陳委員早啊局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說\n有一句話我想要請局長 請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核呃 我說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核 不行 就你們的了解好 個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係 那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話 那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話\n那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的\n那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍\n那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多\n那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動他非常的積極\n也布建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的組織另外一個部分是在於說這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制不只是國安情報團隊\n我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能\n局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的\n那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內\n國安會秘書長他的這個秘書那後來跟他外交部都有類似這樣的狀況這其實是非常嚴肅的問題所以我必須要提到說我們不能夠在事後抓到那包含我現在手上的這個是美國國防部的反情報及安全署的這些資訊也就是說如果我們\n沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制\n你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部衛福部健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情\n因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情啊因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環嘛所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話\n麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事務的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次\n一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過\n跟委員說明一下啦因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中啦那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替吳理事長來說明泡沫資料我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會\n從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊\n所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去\n如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風時也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐\n或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範\n那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是 這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有 這個整合\n要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統它確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話\n再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借選這件事情我是很重視的因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預\n我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化\n然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟\n最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.090 --> 00:00.535\n麻煩請局長來局長\n\n00:10.076 --> 00:34.812\n謝謝主席陳委員早啊局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說\n\n00:35.939 --> 00:59.321\n有一句話我想要請局長請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核呃我說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核不行就你們的了解好個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話\n\n01:00.262 --> 01:21.744\n那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的\n\n01:22.825 --> 01:32.020\n那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍\n\n01:33.206 --> 01:54.429\n那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多\n\n01:55.009 --> 02:12.590\n那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動他非常的積極\n\n02:13.311 --> 02:28.972\n也布建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的組織另外一個部分是在於說這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制不只是國安情報團隊\n\n02:29.753 --> 02:53.902\n我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能\n\n02:54.082 --> 03:12.703\n局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的\n\n03:13.700 --> 03:27.584\n那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內\n\n03:30.319 --> 03:47.224\n國安會秘書長他的這個秘書那後來跟他外交部都有類似這樣的狀況這其實是非常嚴肅的問題所以我必須要提到說我們不能夠在事後抓到那包含我現在手上的這個是美國國防部的反情報及安全署的這些資訊也就是說如果我們\n\n03:48.188 --> 04:08.117\n沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制\n\n04:08.757 --> 04:34.457\n你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部衛福部健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情\n\n04:35.253 --> 05:00.524\n因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情啊因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環嘛所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話\n\n05:01.837 --> 05:27.850\n麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事務的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次\n\n05:29.707 --> 05:49.445\n一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過\n\n05:50.891 --> 06:06.589\n跟委員說明一下啦因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中啦那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替吳理事長來說明泡沫資料我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會\n\n06:09.411 --> 06:31.478\n從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊\n\n06:32.558 --> 06:49.048\n所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去\n\n06:51.772 --> 07:18.789\n如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風時也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐\n\n07:21.371 --> 07:40.069\n或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範\n\n07:41.010 --> 07:59.048\n那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有這個整合\n\n07:59.648 --> 08:23.528\n要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統它確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話\n\n08:24.930 --> 08:42.632\n再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借選這件事情我是很重視的因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預\n\n08:44.014 --> 08:56.001\n我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化\n\n08:56.943 --> 09:24.416\n然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟\n\n09:24.696 --> 09:38.691\n最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.09,"end":0.535,"text":"麻煩請局長來 局長"},{"start":10.076,"end":34.812,"text":"謝謝主席 陳委員早啊局長早安早安這個局長近期有發生這個負責操作這個反艦飛彈的海豐大隊那他們洩漏發射車的放列陣地的超人叫飯給中共的這些情報人員那國防部長顧部長他針對此事他是說這是主動檢舉偵辦那顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺是那但是他說"},{"start":35.939,"end":59.321,"text":"有一句話我想要請局長 請教局長他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核查核不過就不能接觸那這位隊員有沒有通過查核呃 我說是這位個案的這位個案有沒有通過查核 不行 就你們的了解好 個案細節我想不適合討論因為他還在偵辦的過程當中沒關係 那我們就從概念上面來講因為如果有的話 那這個查核就是無效的那如果沒有的話"},{"start":60.262,"end":81.744,"text":"那為什麼他能夠接觸這一個檔案所以我們不斷的在講這個查核的事情其實這個我記得很早我從擔任國防外交委員會的委員到現在我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的這個查核機制但是我後來想想說只要求國安局去做這件事情是不太公平這裡面上是要有更上位的機關譬如像國安會來去做領導的"},{"start":82.825,"end":92.02,"text":"那我仔細去搜查就是說我們立法院的這些新聞系統裡面我們來看一下最近的國軍的這個共諜案件其實也不限於國軍"},{"start":93.206,"end":114.429,"text":"那我可以發覺到說每個月基本上都有一個大案那每個月不管是陸軍海軍空軍等等可是如果我們跟其他國家的相比就是跟英國美國相比他們可能一年大概一到二件或者是英國的話是一到二件澳洲是兩到三件所以這個頻率上面來比較起來我們是非常的多"},{"start":115.009,"end":132.59,"text":"那你認為共諜案這麼的平板是代表說我們很成功攔截了間諜還是說這是有系統性發生的問題我想請教一下局長怎麼看待這個趨勢我想兩個部分一個部分是這代表說中共在對台灣進行相關的情報滲透的活動他非常的積極"},{"start":133.311,"end":148.972,"text":"也布建了非常綿密的一個在地協力的組織另外一個部分是在於說這幾年我們因為國安情報機關針對這些中共滲透的活動我們有建立一個非常綿密的機制不只是國安情報團隊"},{"start":149.753,"end":173.902,"text":"我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有一個協力的一個運作的機制所以造成在國安案件的偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方來進行交換的意見他們對於台灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的一個績效他們也非常印象的深刻所以這部分我們會持續的來強化我們這一方面的一個效能"},{"start":174.082,"end":192.703,"text":"局長我們是要作為國會議員我們是要努力的去鞭策讓你們的效能更好但是同時我必須要提到那一個建築物裡面假設它有漏水的話如果你說你用多少的容器裝了多少公分滲透漏水而你沒有把這個管線修理好做一個日常維護的模式的話那基本上系統上是失敗的"},{"start":193.7,"end":207.584,"text":"那我剛剛提到這幾個國家難道沒有俄國來去做這些相關的這個情報工作嗎難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎也都有但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的直接到中區包含從這個總統府內"},{"start":210.319,"end":227.224,"text":"國安會秘書長他的這個秘書那後來跟他外交部都有類似這樣的狀況這其實是非常嚴肅的問題所以我必須要提到說我們不能夠在事後抓到那包含我現在手上的這個是美國國防部的反情報及安全署的這些資訊也就是說如果我們"},{"start":228.188,"end":248.117,"text":"沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候有提出一個相關的可疑事物、異常事物的指引一個跨部會的指引的話那我不覺得這個國安會有真正認知到這個安全上面的問題我們現在不只是安全何可的問題而是說你怎麼在遇到異常事物的時候你有沒有回報的機制"},{"start":248.757,"end":274.457,"text":"你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門不是只有國安局不是只有調查局不是只有所謂的國安機構包含我們現在從數位部衛福部健保署這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全資訊安全相關的事情這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南的最基本的概念如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情"},{"start":275.253,"end":300.524,"text":"因為我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情啊因為國安局它只是情報體系裡面的其中一環嘛所以我之前可能對局長是有苛責但我覺得其實是對局長是不太公平的因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情所以我很期待說局長您從2023年1月到現在這個時間點有些時候已經是超過你的權限了那我希望你在未來在國安會假設你有列席的話"},{"start":301.837,"end":327.85,"text":"麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣的事務的時候要跟哪一個單位來去報告有沒有統一的指引給各個的部門你接觸的人事物有可疑的時候你要怎麼樣去通報其實都有嘛有整個整個國家是有花很多心思在做這件事情可是我沒有看到相關的這些做法我們說完基層我們來談論一下這個高層的供電相關的案件這一次"},{"start":329.707,"end":349.445,"text":"一審已經判決了就是這個現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮他在擔任外交部長時的這個親信和仁傑秘書他被判刑八年兩個月那你們知道這個吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件給他經手過嗎有做行政調查嗎有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過"},{"start":350.891,"end":366.589,"text":"跟委員說明一下啦因為這案子還在偵辦審理過程當中啦那我不適合把那個個案的細節來對外做說明那第二部分我也不適合代替吳理事長來說明泡沫資料我們不說明這件事情我們就從概念上面我現在不講個案了我們現在其實也不是個案了從總統府國安會"},{"start":369.411,"end":391.478,"text":"從軍警線全部都是怎麼會是個案呢我現在講查核的問題我剛才為什麼問說有沒有超過他查核的超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過的原因就是因為這八年來他僅做過一次安全查核啊那當然這八年來是在國安會的安全查核到外交部之後他們就沒有再過安全查核那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢你根本無從界定啊"},{"start":392.558,"end":409.048,"text":"所以局長我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題我們在對的是整個體系上面的問題從軍方智庫智庫人員每一個外媒在或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候就談到一件事情再好的裝備給你們你們如果拿去"},{"start":411.772,"end":438.789,"text":"如果洩密給中國的話那我們等於是把這些資本把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了甚至不會不僅不能夠增進我國的安全甚至會傷害我國的安全所以局長我真的我們想一個安全合格也好或者是這個異常事件的指南也好現在各個部會都有陣風時也就是說我如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候不管是我們剛才提到的這個海豐"},{"start":441.371,"end":460.069,"text":"或者是軍警線至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料裡面都有我們不用重新學習北約都有它相關的標準美方也有相關的標準遇到異常事件的時候你要去通報人事實地務該怎麼樣的SOP我們把它做好我們就能夠某種程度的防範"},{"start":461.01,"end":479.048,"text":"那我們不用去一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯所以說我們要求誰誰誰來下台不是 這時候我們制度要建立起來這個已經很久了我看這個我們從談這件事情到現在也是一年半了但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的一個整合出來有有有 這個整合"},{"start":479.648,"end":503.528,"text":"要跟委員說明一下因為事實上在政府體系的人員安全查核的部分主要是由調查局來做相關的夜館那我所理解的是行政院的系統它確實在這個部分有重新來建立起一些相關的機制包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用的人員也都開始納入這個查核的機制那第二部分是委員在提醒到的對於這種反情報的相關行為指南那這部分我們要是有內部的跨部會會議的話"},{"start":504.93,"end":522.632,"text":"再麻煩局長那最後一個就是關於中共中共借選這件事情我是很重視的因為從我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來規劃台灣的那他直接參與我們的中央政府的相關官員的選舉就是國會議員的選舉之外他這次是直接來去干預"},{"start":524.014,"end":536.001,"text":"我國的在野黨的黨主席選舉那我不會把這件事情當成是一個當成是別人家的事情這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響他們總是可以叫做什麼分化"},{"start":536.943,"end":564.416,"text":"然後再找出一個對符合他們意識形態的人那這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做也會在國民黨上面做那我希望能夠正視這個在野黨他們提出來的這個擔憂我們必須要全力去協助這部分一句話就剛跟沈博洋委員討論也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足因為目前我們的國安法反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力去借選到國內政黨有相關的法律規範那這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟"},{"start":564.696,"end":578.691,"text":"最後還是要強調台灣的民主由台灣人民自己決定任何境外室內都沒有辦法影響這都是對民主的侵害所以這個東西我們這是不分政黨的要給予最大的希望國安修法跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時50分）召委，麻煩請局長。"],["主席：局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，陳委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長早安。局長，近期負責操作反艦飛彈的海鋒大隊，發生洩漏發射車「放列陣地操演教範」給中共情報人員的情事，國防部顧部長針對此事說：這是主動檢舉偵辦，顯示保防教育還有相當的警覺。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是有一句話我想要請教局長，他說只要涉及機密的都要加強查核，查核不過就不能接觸，那這位隊員有沒有通過查核？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員是說這位個案的……"],["陳委員冠廷：就你們目前的了解，這位個案有沒有通過查核？"],["蔡局長明彥：個案細節我想不適合討論，因為還在偵辦的過程當中。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，那我們就從概念上面來講，因為如果有的話，那這個查核就是無效的；如果沒有的話，為什麼他能夠接觸這個檔案？所以我們不斷的在講查核的事情。其實我記得很早，從我擔任國防及外交委員會的委員到現在，我們不斷在說要有一個跨部會的查核機制，但是我後來想想，只要求國安局去做這件事情是不是不太公平，理論上要由更上位的機關，譬如像國安會去領導。我仔細去搜查立法院的這些新聞系統裡面，我們來看一下最近國軍的共諜案件，其實也不限於國軍，我可以發覺每個月基本上都有一個大案，每個月不管是陸軍、海軍、空軍等等。可是如果我們跟其他國家相比，跟英國、美國相比，他們可能一年大概1到2件，像英國可能1到2件；澳洲是2到3件，所以頻率上面比較起來，我們是非常的多。你認為共諜案這麼的頻繁，是代表我們很成功攔截了間諜，還是這有系統性發生的問題？我想請教局長怎麼看待這個趨勢。"],["蔡局長明彥：兩個部分：一個部分這代表中共對臺灣進行相關情報滲透活動非常積極，也布建了非常綿密在地協力的組織；另外一個部分是因為國安情報機關這幾年針對這些中共滲透活動有建立非常綿密的機制。不只是國安情報團隊，我們跟司法警察機關跟檢調機關也有協力運作的機制，所以在國安案件偵辦這幾年有比較多的趨勢，而這一部分我們有跟外國的友方交換意見，對於臺灣在法律要件的界定能夠達到類似成案的績效，他們也非常印象深刻，所以這部分我們會持續強化這方面的效能。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長，我們作為國會議員要努力去鞭策，讓你們的效能更好。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是同時我必須要提到，假設一個建築物裡面有漏水，如果你說你用多少的容器、裝了多少公分滲透的漏水，而你沒有把這個管線修理好，做一個日常維護的模式的話，基本上系統是失敗的。我剛剛提到這幾個國家，難道沒有俄國去做這些相關的情報工作嗎？難道這些國家沒有遇到中國的情報工作嗎？也都有，但是他沒有像我們這樣那麼頻繁的，甚至直接到中樞，包含從總統府內國安會秘書長時的秘書，後來跟著到外交部，都有類似這樣的狀況，這其實是非常嚴肅的問題，所以我必須要提到，我們不能夠在事後才抓到。我現在手上的是美國國防部反情報暨安全署的這些資訊，也就是如果我們沒有辦法在這種系統性、全面性滲透的時候，提出一個相關可疑事物、異常事物的指引，提出跨部會的指引的話，那我不覺得國安會有真正認知到安全上面的問題。","我們現在不只是安全核可的問題，而是在遇到異常事物的時候，有沒有回報的機制？你要怎麼樣跟所有跨部會的部門，不是只有國安局，不是只有調查局，不是只有所謂的國安機構，包含現在從數位部、衛福部、健保署，這些都是跟我們一般民眾人身安全、資訊安全相關的事情。這一些碰觸到敏感資訊的公務人員，本來就應該要有這些反情報接觸指南最基本的概念。如果我們到現在都沒有相關的指引給跨部會的部門，我真的不知道國安會是在做什麼事情耶！我不能要求國安局去做跨部會的事情，因為國安局只是情報體系裡面的其中一環。我之前可能對局長有苛責，但其實對局長是不太公平的，因為更要有上位機關去做這些事情，所以我很期待。局長從2023年1月到現在這個時間點，有些時候已經是超過你的權限的，但我希望你未來在國安會，假設你有列席的話，麻煩跟他們說一下有這個相關的……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，有。"],["陳委員冠廷：反情報接觸指引遇到什麼樣事務的時候，要跟哪一個單位去報告？有沒有統一的指引給各個部門？當你接觸的人事物可疑的時候，你要怎麼樣去通報？其實都有嘛！整個國家花很多心思在做這件事情，可是我沒有看到相關的這些作法。","說完基層，我們來談論一下高層共諜相關的案件。這一次一審已經判決了，就是現任國安會秘書長吳釗燮在擔任外交部長時的親信──何仁傑秘書，他被判刑8年2個月，就你們所知，吳秘書長有沒有把相關的文件讓他經手過？有做行政調查嗎？有沒有把超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明，因為這個案子還在偵辦審理過程當中，我不適合把個案的細節對外說明；第二部分，我也不適合代替吳秘書長說明……"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們不說明這件事情，我是從概念上面，我現在不講個案了，其實也不是個案，從總統府、國安會到軍警憲全部都是，怎麼會是個案呢！我現在講查核的問題，我剛才問有沒有拿超過他查核層級的文件給他處理過？原因就是因為這8年來，他僅做過一次安全查核啊！當然，這8年來是在國安會的安全查核，到外交部之後他們就沒有再做過安全查核，那你怎麼知道有或沒有呢？你根本無從界定啊！所以局長，我認為這是一個很重要的國安議題，我們針對的是整個體系上面的問題……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，了解。"],["陳委員冠廷：從軍方、智庫人員每一個……或者甚至是外媒在跟我們交流的時候談到一件事情，再好的裝備給你們，你們拿去如果洩密給中國的話，我們等於是把這些資源的投入丟到哪裡去了？不僅不能夠增進我國的安全，甚至會傷害我國安全耶！所以局長，我說真的，我們想一個安全核可也好，或者是異常事件的指南也好，現在各個部會都有政風室，也就是說如果遇到異常事件要通報的時候，不管是我們剛才提到的海鋒，或者是軍警憲，至少他們有一個馬上可以填寫的資料，裡面都有，我們不用重新學習。北約都有它相關的標準，美方也有相關的標準，遇到異常事件的時候，你要通報人事時地物，該用怎麼樣的SOP，我們把它做好就能夠某種程度的防範。我們不用一個一個去究責說這是因為你的錯，所以我們要求誰來下臺，不是，是我們制度要建立起來。這個已經很久了，我看我們從談這件事情到現在也一年半了，但我到現在還沒有看到有一個跨部會的整合出來。"],["蔡局長明彥：有、有、有，要跟委員說明一下，事實上在政府體系人員安全查核的部分，主要是由調查局做相關的業管。我所理解的是，行政院系統確實在這個部分有重新建立起一些相關的機制，包括委員剛剛特別在意的機要任用人員，也都開始納入這個查核的機制。再來是委員提醒到的，對於這種反情報相關行為指南，我們如果有內部跨部會會議的話，我會來反映。"],["陳委員冠廷：再麻煩局長。最後，關於中共介選這件事情，我是很重視的，因為我們自己的選舉就是有中國籍然後後來歸化臺灣的，他直接參與我們中央政府相關官員的選舉，也就是國會議員的選舉。除此之外，他這次是直接干預我國在野黨的黨主席選舉，我不會把這件事情當成是別人家的事情，這對我國的國家安全是直接的影響，他們總是可以分化，然後再找出一個最符合他們意識型態的人，這個東西不僅會在民進黨上面做，也會在國民黨上面做。我希望能夠正視在野黨提出來的這個擔憂，我們必須要全力協助。"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分就一句話，剛剛跟沈伯洋委員討論，也有發現到國內目前在法律工具上的不足，因為目前我們的國安法、反滲透法並沒有針對境外勢力介選國內政黨有相關的法律規範，這部分可能後續在修法上我們再跟……"],["陳委員冠廷：最後還是要強調，臺灣的民主由臺灣人民自己決定，任何境外勢力都沒有辦法影響。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，這是我們的基本價值。"],["陳委員冠廷：這都是對民主的侵害，所以這個東西我們不分政黨，要給予最大的……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，對，也希望相關的國安修法，跨黨派都能夠給予我們一些支持，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}}