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322.475, \"end\": 322.735, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 322.735, \"end\": 323.055, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 323.055, \"end\": 323.275, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 323.275, \"end\": 324.115, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 324.115, \"end\": 324.376, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 324.376, \"end\": 324.696, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 324.696, \"end\": 325.036, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"新\", \"start\": 325.036, \"end\": 326.356, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"戶\"}, {\"word\": \"最\", \"start\": 326.356, \"end\": 326.596, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 326.596, \"end\": 326.956, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 326.956, \"end\": 327.236, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"全\", \"start\": 327.236, \"end\": 327.456, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 327.456, \"end\": 327.616, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"責\"}, {\"word\": \"任\", \"start\": 327.616, \"end\": 327.797, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 327.797, \"end\": 328.637, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 328.637, \"end\": 328.717, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 328.717, \"end\": 328.737, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 329.918, \"end\": 358.202, \"text\": \"其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 329.918, \"end\": 330.559, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 330.559, \"end\": 330.719, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"括\", \"start\": 330.719, \"end\": 330.859, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"包\", \"start\": 330.859, \"end\": 330.999, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 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357.021, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 357.021, \"end\": 357.842, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 357.842, \"end\": 357.882, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 357.882, \"end\": 357.922, \"score\": 0.496}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 357.922, \"end\": 358.042, \"score\": 0.834}, {\"word\": \"完\", \"start\": 358.042, \"end\": 358.182, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"善\", \"start\": 358.182, \"end\": 358.202, \"score\": 0.045}]}, {\"start\": 361.011, \"end\": 372.239, \"text\": \"還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 361.011, \"end\": 361.211, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 361.211, \"end\": 361.451, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 361.451, \"end\": 361.612, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"塞\", \"start\": 361.612, \"end\": 361.752, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"塞\", \"start\": 361.752, \"end\": 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00:01:19,370\n好我問你因為我最近接了很多軍醫院的投訴那我要問你就是在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院他的員工都全部都是勞保嘛所以你們管理沒問題你們治安管理那在軍醫院跟國家醫院就是那個教育部的醫院裡面有公務人員\n\n4\n00:01:21,941 --> 00:01:36,392\n業聘人員這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理如果產生霸凌的事情的時候一個是用公務人員一個是用勞動部這邊在醫院裡面都可以適用治安法\n\n5\n00:01:37,423 --> 00:01:56,071\n都是用治安法好那這些軍醫院的就是用職權上來壓迫或者是用言語在霸凌那這些業聘的人員早上都七八點就打電話來這樣走走走啦我請問劉俊國前輩可能你也有收到喔有喔\n\n6\n00:02:02,774 --> 00:02:09,667\n所以這他們的投訴的話加上投訴因為雙保險啊搞到投訴之後再跟劉建國投訴這樣會比較穩那這個你們要怎麼處理\n\n7\n00:02:17,167 --> 00:02:43,053\n像委員講這個案例他的這個身份的話基本上其實都是可以適用治安法的對那在這次裡面我們當然就是用這個職場霸凌專章的方式那如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況所以我們也把職場霸凌的定義那也包括該處理的程序也包括對於申訴人的保護其實這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面所以\n\n8\n00:02:47,281 --> 00:03:08,960\n不過我要求他們院方檢討也沒什麼下文很想開記者會但是又怕傷到因為同樣是異界的人給他傷及無辜所以這個要不要去查一下法輪部應該治安署知道了吧到現在不知道嗎\n\n9\n00:03:10,437 --> 00:03:39,119\n如果你有相關的案件當然可以轉給我們那當然我們可以來看他是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌那依照其實相關的程序我想就依照法治的程序來處理包括調查包括處置因為現在護理師護理人員缺的一塌糊塗大家都瘦命命過了過不去比較有可能再這樣這種事情的腐朽實在是無法想像所以金醫院今天金方隊員要來\n\n10\n00:03:48,177 --> 00:04:02,645\n所以選手這邊要去查一下你把相關的案件我把資料轉給你好那再來就是沿途管理跟轉包的事情這些轉包的事情\n\n11\n00:04:03,766 --> 00:04:20,012\n因為我們的一個案子那甲子營造廠超甲子營造廠來裱一定會轉包嘛如果不轉包吊車啦什麼啦這些都很貴的東西嘛所以轉包或是請外面的人來做一個請外面的吊車什麼這種的你們的管理你們是怎麼管理\n\n12\n00:04:31,992 --> 00:05:00,837\n你聽我的意思啦跟委員說明第一個我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面看到在這個階段裡面我們的現在現在的法規業主是沒有責任的所以這一次業主是業主業主比方說對就比方說過去終結事件的業主是新復發新復發就是業主是沒有責任的可是其實業主在整體的這個案件的\n\n13\n00:05:03,870 --> 00:05:28,737\n資本的投入或者是經費的投入上面他們其實才是最主導者所以應該要讓業主科與這些相關如果資安發生的話或者是防治的責任那我們會從這個角度來去做相關的這個也要求要有一定的所以像那個案子就是終結這個案子是新戶發戶最後完全之責任是不是這樣\n\n14\n00:05:29,918 --> 00:05:58,202\n其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善\n\n15\n00:06:01,011 --> 00:06:12,239\n還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有\n\n16\n00:06:17,999 --> 00:06:36,218\n跟文說明我們認為如果要把職場的安全做好的話其實業主願意投入一定的經費這個是安全的投資很重要今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話下面的包商下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待\n\n17\n00:06:36,778 --> 00:07:02,778\n所以業主要有一定的責任他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來這次是關鍵這個非常重要啦因為你入住你就是要負前輩的責任你要勇敢承擔勇敢面對嘛不可以塞塞給你的轉包轉包轉包這一個工頭他怎麼會領著人家幫你付錢啦\n\n18\n00:07:06,195 --> 00:07:33,573\n啊你吊車車吊車比較貴的一隻幾六億你當然也是要額外繳繳來出事你親吳啊你才負最後的完全責任所以這件事情處理得不漂亮還是有完善因為法規上面的限制所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究啊那這次修法要把它完善喔當然好再來我請教部長\n\n19\n00:07:36,615 --> 00:07:38,460\n這個長榮這個事件大家都已經這兩天問到要怒了\n\n20\n00:07:40,956 --> 00:08:04,683\n我要說的是steeldisease這個病是一種自體免疫的疾病這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題後天的問題但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會如果是日夜顛倒或者高壓或者是生理失蹤破壞它會加重\n\n21\n00:08:06,042 --> 00:08:29,811\n家中會腎臟有問題會血管發炎甚至會猝死都有所以這個發生這種不幸大家都很不敢你如果說要職業我們每一年都有做職業傷害的像機師他就做運動性練徒甚至於做核子醫學SALIMscan等等\n\n22\n00:08:30,734 --> 00:08:53,330\n那這些空無言事實上他們也是高強度日夜顛倒你在你的職業每一年的例行檢查這一些奇怪的這些要用點心思啦這要找出來這種人不適合做日夜顛倒的工作所以這個發生這種事大家都斷不掉\n\n23\n00:08:54,811 --> 00:09:07,538\n所以可以加賣這比較重要就是說他的每年我們一般每年勞工的那個檢查都是大概一些routine的嘛驗血、驗尿、X光那沒有啦那個驗不出來什麼東西啦\n\n24\n00:09:13,215 --> 00:09:36,533\n包委員有關於這個健康檢查的部分剛剛委員關心的這部分那如果說針對這個空服員他在這個執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目我們這次也要蒐集國外的一些資料來調整我們現在健檢項目針對空檢的人那這邊剛剛委員講說這個如果這個這個同仁有這樣的問題的話其實在目前的法規裡面有規定雇主\n\n25\n00:09:37,133 --> 00:09:59,754\n在一開始的針對空服員的身體健康狀況要做適性的配供在目前現行的法令就有這樣規定所以這個你要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的有些職業變成像胸腔的什麼會細症等等都有在做特殊那這個應該要納入所以這樣衛生部有沒有意見\n\n26\n00:10:04,768 --> 00:10:29,707\n民航局局長你不要講一下你想到底在管理還是沒有那個謝謝委員剛剛提示到的有關那個組員的健康管理的部分確實有一些疾病其實是醫療上面的專業那我也會剛剛委員的建議就是說有關勞動部或者是這個跟這個相關醫師單位來訂這個的時候我們民航局也可以來加入一起\n\n27\n00:10:30,256 --> 00:10:51,023\n因為我知道機師副機師他們好像半年就要做一次運動訓練圖一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學諸如此類的空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞這一種的有一些自體免疫的那些相次項目找專家來看看\n\n28\n00:10:51,854 --> 00:11:18,961\n不然的話這個雖然病例不多但是偶爾都會發現那這種常常會造成遺憾的事情那這樣如果說他已經不舒服了他跟他的長官講跟他的座艙長講他到底是怎麼處理我們也不知道啦這個你們要再調查所以這一塊我希望我們部裡面要看看怎麼來做好好不好\n\n29\n00:11:21,517 --> 00:11:30,887\n當然這是在我們勞工醫改這要做什麼我可以幫忙看可以找人來做一些特殊的好不好謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8444\t22950\t好 謝謝 謝謝劉昭偉那我請部長 洪部長來 請部長還有我們的民航局局長請局長還有郭威中我們議事司議事司郭威中\n31548\t45700\t專委好 部長您今天的職安法修訂是有四個主題嘛一個是職場霸凌啦什麼沿途管理啦什麼轉包的啦這些嘛還有綜華\n51536\t79370\t好 我問你 因為我最近接了很多軍醫院的投訴那我要問你就是在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院他的員工都全部都是勞保嘛所以你們管理沒問題 你們治安管理那在軍醫院跟國家醫院就是那個教育部的醫院裡面有公務人員\n81941\t96392\t業聘人員這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理如果產生霸凌的事情的時候一個是用公務人員一個是用勞動部這邊在醫院裡面都可以適用治安法\n97423\t116071\t都是用治安法好那這些軍醫院的就是用職權上來壓迫或者是用言語在霸凌那這些業聘的人員早上都七八點就打電話來這樣走走走啦我請問劉俊國前輩可能你也有收到喔有喔\n122774\t129667\t所以這 他們的投訴的話 加上投訴 因為雙保險啊搞到投訴之後 再跟劉建國投訴這樣 會比較穩那這個 你們要怎麼處理\n137167\t163053\t像委員講這個案例他的這個身份的話基本上其實都是可以適用治安法的對那在這次裡面我們當然就是用這個職場霸凌專章的方式那如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況所以我們也把職場霸凌的定義那也包括該處理的程序也包括對於申訴人的保護其實這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面所以\n167281\t188960\t不過我要求他們院方檢討也沒什麼下文很想開記者會但是又怕傷到因為同樣是異界的人給他傷及無辜所以這個要不要去查一下法輪部應該治安署知道了吧到現在不知道嗎\n190437\t219119\t如果你有相關的案件當然可以轉給我們那當然我們可以來看他是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌那依照其實相關的程序我想就依照法治的程序來處理包括調查包括處置因為現在護理師護理人員缺的一塌糊塗大家都瘦命命過了過不去比較有可能再這樣這種事情的腐朽實在是無法想像所以金醫院今天金方隊員要來\n228177\t242645\t所以選手這邊要去查一下你把相關的案件我把資料轉給你好 那再來就是沿途管理跟轉包的事情這些轉包的事情\n243766\t260012\t因為我們的一個案子那甲子營造廠 超甲子營造廠來裱 一定會轉包嘛如果不轉包 吊車啦 什麼啦 這些都很貴的東西嘛所以轉包 或是請外面的人來做一個請外面的吊車 什麼 這種的你們的管理你們是怎麼管理\n271992\t300837\t你聽我的意思啦跟委員說明第一個我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面看到在這個階段裡面我們的現在現在的法規業主是沒有責任的所以這一次業主是業主業主比方說對就比方說過去終結事件的業主是新復發新復發就是業主是沒有責任的可是其實業主在整體的這個案件的\n303870\t328737\t資本的投入或者是經費的投入上面他們其實才是最主導者所以應該要讓業主科與這些相關如果資安發生的話或者是防治的責任那我們會從這個角度來去做相關的這個也要求要有一定的所以像那個案子就是終結這個案子是新戶發戶最後完全之責任是不是這樣\n329918\t358202\t其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善\n361011\t372239\t還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有\n377999\t396218\t跟文說明我們認為如果要把職場的安全做好的話其實業主願意投入一定的經費這個是安全的投資很重要今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話下面的包商下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待\n396778\t422778\t所以業主要有一定的責任他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來這次是關鍵這個非常重要啦因為你入住你就是要負前輩的責任你要勇敢承擔 勇敢面對嘛不可以塞塞給你的轉包 轉包 轉包這一個工頭他怎麼會領著人家幫你付錢啦\n426195\t453573\t啊你吊車 車吊車比較貴的一隻幾六億你當然也是要額外繳 繳來出事你親吳啊 你才負最後的完全責任所以這件事情處理得不漂亮還是有完善因為法規上面的限制所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究啊那這次修法要把它完善喔當然好 再來我請教部長\n456615\t458460\t這個長榮這個事件大家都已經這兩天問到要怒了\n460956\t484683\t我要說的是steel disease這個病是一種自體免疫的疾病這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題後天的問題但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會如果是日夜顛倒或者高壓或者是生理失蹤破壞它會加重\n486042\t509811\t家中會腎臟有問題 會血管發炎甚至會猝死都有所以這個發生這種不幸 大家都很不敢你如果說要職業我們每一年都有做職業傷害的像機師他就做運動性練徒甚至於做核子醫學SALIM scan等等\n510734\t533330\t那這些空無言事實上他們也是高強度日夜顛倒你在你的職業每一年的例行檢查這一些奇怪的這些要用點心思啦這要找出來這種人不適合做日夜顛倒的工作所以這個發生這種事大家都斷不掉\n534811\t547538\t所以可以加賣這比較重要就是說他的每年我們一般每年勞工的那個檢查都是大概一些routine的嘛驗血、驗尿、X光那沒有啦那個驗不出來什麼東西啦\n553215\t576533\t包委員有關於這個健康檢查的部分剛剛委員關心的這部分那如果說針對這個空服員他在這個執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目我們這次也要蒐集國外的一些資料來調整我們現在健檢項目針對空檢的人那這邊剛剛委員講說這個如果這個這個同仁有這樣的問題的話其實在目前的法規裡面有規定雇主\n577133\t599754\t在一開始的針對空服員的身體健康狀況要做適性的配供在目前現行的法令就有這樣規定所以這個你要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的有些職業變成像胸腔的 什麼會細症等等都有在做特殊那這個應該要納入所以這樣 衛生部有沒有意見\n604768\t629707\t民航局局長你不要講一下你想到底在管理還是沒有那個 謝謝委員剛剛提示到的有關那個組員的健康管理的部分確實有一些疾病其實是醫療上面的專業那我也會 剛剛委員的建議就是說有關勞動部或者是這個跟這個相關醫師單位來訂這個的時候我們民航局也可以來加入一起\n630256\t651023\t因為我知道機師 副機師他們好像半年就要做一次運動訓練圖一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學諸如此類的空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞這一種的有一些自體免疫的那些相次 項目找專家來看看\n651854\t678961\t不然的話這個雖然病例不多但是偶爾都會發現那這種常常會造成遺憾的事情那這樣如果說他已經不舒服了他跟他的長官講跟他的座艙長講他到底是怎麼處理我們也不知道啦這個你們要再調查所以這一塊我希望我們部裡面要看看怎麼來做好好不好\n681517\t690887\t當然這是在我們勞工 醫改這要做什麼 我可以幫忙看可以找人來做一些特殊的 好不好謝謝委員\n","txt":"好 謝謝 謝謝劉昭偉那我請部長 洪部長來 請部長還有我們的民航局局長請局長還有郭威中我們議事司議事司郭威中\n專委好 部長您今天的職安法修訂是有四個主題嘛一個是職場霸凌啦什麼沿途管理啦什麼轉包的啦這些嘛還有綜華\n好 我問你 因為我最近接了很多軍醫院的投訴那我要問你就是在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院他的員工都全部都是勞保嘛所以你們管理沒問題 你們治安管理那在軍醫院跟國家醫院就是那個教育部的醫院裡面有公務人員\n業聘人員這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理如果產生霸凌的事情的時候一個是用公務人員一個是用勞動部這邊在醫院裡面都可以適用治安法\n都是用治安法好那這些軍醫院的就是用職權上來壓迫或者是用言語在霸凌那這些業聘的人員早上都七八點就打電話來這樣走走走啦我請問劉俊國前輩可能你也有收到喔有喔\n所以這 他們的投訴的話 加上投訴 因為雙保險啊搞到投訴之後 再跟劉建國投訴這樣 會比較穩那這個 你們要怎麼處理\n像委員講這個案例他的這個身份的話基本上其實都是可以適用治安法的對那在這次裡面我們當然就是用這個職場霸凌專章的方式那如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況所以我們也把職場霸凌的定義那也包括該處理的程序也包括對於申訴人的保護其實這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面所以\n不過我要求他們院方檢討也沒什麼下文很想開記者會但是又怕傷到因為同樣是異界的人給他傷及無辜所以這個要不要去查一下法輪部應該治安署知道了吧到現在不知道嗎\n如果你有相關的案件當然可以轉給我們那當然我們可以來看他是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌那依照其實相關的程序我想就依照法治的程序來處理包括調查包括處置因為現在護理師護理人員缺的一塌糊塗大家都瘦命命過了過不去比較有可能再這樣這種事情的腐朽實在是無法想像所以金醫院今天金方隊員要來\n所以選手這邊要去查一下你把相關的案件我把資料轉給你好 那再來就是沿途管理跟轉包的事情這些轉包的事情\n因為我們的一個案子那甲子營造廠 超甲子營造廠來裱 一定會轉包嘛如果不轉包 吊車啦 什麼啦 這些都很貴的東西嘛所以轉包 或是請外面的人來做一個請外面的吊車 什麼 這種的你們的管理你們是怎麼管理\n你聽我的意思啦跟委員說明第一個我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面看到在這個階段裡面我們的現在現在的法規業主是沒有責任的所以這一次業主是業主業主比方說對就比方說過去終結事件的業主是新復發新復發就是業主是沒有責任的可是其實業主在整體的這個案件的\n資本的投入或者是經費的投入上面他們其實才是最主導者所以應該要讓業主科與這些相關如果資安發生的話或者是防治的責任那我們會從這個角度來去做相關的這個也要求要有一定的所以像那個案子就是終結這個案子是新戶發戶最後完全之責任是不是這樣\n其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善\n還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有\n跟文說明我們認為如果要把職場的安全做好的話其實業主願意投入一定的經費這個是安全的投資很重要今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話下面的包商下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待\n所以業主要有一定的責任他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來這次是關鍵這個非常重要啦因為你入住你就是要負前輩的責任你要勇敢承擔 勇敢面對嘛不可以塞塞給你的轉包 轉包 轉包這一個工頭他怎麼會領著人家幫你付錢啦\n啊你吊車 車吊車比較貴的一隻幾六億你當然也是要額外繳 繳來出事你親吳啊 你才負最後的完全責任所以這件事情處理得不漂亮還是有完善因為法規上面的限制所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究啊那這次修法要把它完善喔當然好 再來我請教部長\n這個長榮這個事件大家都已經這兩天問到要怒了\n我要說的是steel disease這個病是一種自體免疫的疾病這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題後天的問題但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會如果是日夜顛倒或者高壓或者是生理失蹤破壞它會加重\n家中會腎臟有問題 會血管發炎甚至會猝死都有所以這個發生這種不幸 大家都很不敢你如果說要職業我們每一年都有做職業傷害的像機師他就做運動性練徒甚至於做核子醫學SALIM scan等等\n那這些空無言事實上他們也是高強度日夜顛倒你在你的職業每一年的例行檢查這一些奇怪的這些要用點心思啦這要找出來這種人不適合做日夜顛倒的工作所以這個發生這種事大家都斷不掉\n所以可以加賣這比較重要就是說他的每年我們一般每年勞工的那個檢查都是大概一些routine的嘛驗血、驗尿、X光那沒有啦那個驗不出來什麼東西啦\n包委員有關於這個健康檢查的部分剛剛委員關心的這部分那如果說針對這個空服員他在這個執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目我們這次也要蒐集國外的一些資料來調整我們現在健檢項目針對空檢的人那這邊剛剛委員講說這個如果這個這個同仁有這樣的問題的話其實在目前的法規裡面有規定雇主\n在一開始的針對空服員的身體健康狀況要做適性的配供在目前現行的法令就有這樣規定所以這個你要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的有些職業變成像胸腔的 什麼會細症等等都有在做特殊那這個應該要納入所以這樣 衛生部有沒有意見\n民航局局長你不要講一下你想到底在管理還是沒有那個 謝謝委員剛剛提示到的有關那個組員的健康管理的部分確實有一些疾病其實是醫療上面的專業那我也會 剛剛委員的建議就是說有關勞動部或者是這個跟這個相關醫師單位來訂這個的時候我們民航局也可以來加入一起\n因為我知道機師 副機師他們好像半年就要做一次運動訓練圖一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學諸如此類的空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞這一種的有一些自體免疫的那些相次 項目找專家來看看\n不然的話這個雖然病例不多但是偶爾都會發現那這種常常會造成遺憾的事情那這樣如果說他已經不舒服了他跟他的長官講跟他的座艙長講他到底是怎麼處理我們也不知道啦這個你們要再調查所以這一塊我希望我們部裡面要看看怎麼來做好好不好\n當然這是在我們勞工 醫改這要做什麼 我可以幫忙看可以找人來做一些特殊的 好不好謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.444 --> 00:22.950\n好謝謝謝謝劉昭偉那我請部長洪部長來請部長還有我們的民航局局長請局長還有郭威中我們議事司議事司郭威中\n\n00:31.548 --> 00:45.700\n專委好部長您今天的職安法修訂是有四個主題嘛一個是職場霸凌啦什麼沿途管理啦什麼轉包的啦這些嘛還有綜華\n\n00:51.536 --> 01:19.370\n好我問你因為我最近接了很多軍醫院的投訴那我要問你就是在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院他的員工都全部都是勞保嘛所以你們管理沒問題你們治安管理那在軍醫院跟國家醫院就是那個教育部的醫院裡面有公務人員\n\n01:21.941 --> 01:36.392\n業聘人員這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理如果產生霸凌的事情的時候一個是用公務人員一個是用勞動部這邊在醫院裡面都可以適用治安法\n\n01:37.423 --> 01:56.071\n都是用治安法好那這些軍醫院的就是用職權上來壓迫或者是用言語在霸凌那這些業聘的人員早上都七八點就打電話來這樣走走走啦我請問劉俊國前輩可能你也有收到喔有喔\n\n02:02.774 --> 02:09.667\n所以這他們的投訴的話加上投訴因為雙保險啊搞到投訴之後再跟劉建國投訴這樣會比較穩那這個你們要怎麼處理\n\n02:17.167 --> 02:43.053\n像委員講這個案例他的這個身份的話基本上其實都是可以適用治安法的對那在這次裡面我們當然就是用這個職場霸凌專章的方式那如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況所以我們也把職場霸凌的定義那也包括該處理的程序也包括對於申訴人的保護其實這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面所以\n\n02:47.281 --> 03:08.960\n不過我要求他們院方檢討也沒什麼下文很想開記者會但是又怕傷到因為同樣是異界的人給他傷及無辜所以這個要不要去查一下法輪部應該治安署知道了吧到現在不知道嗎\n\n03:10.437 --> 03:39.119\n如果你有相關的案件當然可以轉給我們那當然我們可以來看他是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌那依照其實相關的程序我想就依照法治的程序來處理包括調查包括處置因為現在護理師護理人員缺的一塌糊塗大家都瘦命命過了過不去比較有可能再這樣這種事情的腐朽實在是無法想像所以金醫院今天金方隊員要來\n\n03:48.177 --> 04:02.645\n所以選手這邊要去查一下你把相關的案件我把資料轉給你好那再來就是沿途管理跟轉包的事情這些轉包的事情\n\n04:03.766 --> 04:20.012\n因為我們的一個案子那甲子營造廠超甲子營造廠來裱一定會轉包嘛如果不轉包吊車啦什麼啦這些都很貴的東西嘛所以轉包或是請外面的人來做一個請外面的吊車什麼這種的你們的管理你們是怎麼管理\n\n04:31.992 --> 05:00.837\n你聽我的意思啦跟委員說明第一個我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面看到在這個階段裡面我們的現在現在的法規業主是沒有責任的所以這一次業主是業主業主比方說對就比方說過去終結事件的業主是新復發新復發就是業主是沒有責任的可是其實業主在整體的這個案件的\n\n05:03.870 --> 05:28.737\n資本的投入或者是經費的投入上面他們其實才是最主導者所以應該要讓業主科與這些相關如果資安發生的話或者是防治的責任那我們會從這個角度來去做相關的這個也要求要有一定的所以像那個案子就是終結這個案子是新戶發戶最後完全之責任是不是這樣\n\n05:29.918 --> 05:58.202\n其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善\n\n06:01.011 --> 06:12.239\n還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有\n\n06:17.999 --> 06:36.218\n跟文說明我們認為如果要把職場的安全做好的話其實業主願意投入一定的經費這個是安全的投資很重要今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話下面的包商下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待\n\n06:36.778 --> 07:02.778\n所以業主要有一定的責任他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來這次是關鍵這個非常重要啦因為你入住你就是要負前輩的責任你要勇敢承擔勇敢面對嘛不可以塞塞給你的轉包轉包轉包這一個工頭他怎麼會領著人家幫你付錢啦\n\n07:06.195 --> 07:33.573\n啊你吊車車吊車比較貴的一隻幾六億你當然也是要額外繳繳來出事你親吳啊你才負最後的完全責任所以這件事情處理得不漂亮還是有完善因為法規上面的限制所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究啊那這次修法要把它完善喔當然好再來我請教部長\n\n07:36.615 --> 07:38.460\n這個長榮這個事件大家都已經這兩天問到要怒了\n\n07:40.956 --> 08:04.683\n我要說的是steeldisease這個病是一種自體免疫的疾病這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題後天的問題但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會如果是日夜顛倒或者高壓或者是生理失蹤破壞它會加重\n\n08:06.042 --> 08:29.811\n家中會腎臟有問題會血管發炎甚至會猝死都有所以這個發生這種不幸大家都很不敢你如果說要職業我們每一年都有做職業傷害的像機師他就做運動性練徒甚至於做核子醫學SALIMscan等等\n\n08:30.734 --> 08:53.330\n那這些空無言事實上他們也是高強度日夜顛倒你在你的職業每一年的例行檢查這一些奇怪的這些要用點心思啦這要找出來這種人不適合做日夜顛倒的工作所以這個發生這種事大家都斷不掉\n\n08:54.811 --> 09:07.538\n所以可以加賣這比較重要就是說他的每年我們一般每年勞工的那個檢查都是大概一些routine的嘛驗血、驗尿、X光那沒有啦那個驗不出來什麼東西啦\n\n09:13.215 --> 09:36.533\n包委員有關於這個健康檢查的部分剛剛委員關心的這部分那如果說針對這個空服員他在這個執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目我們這次也要蒐集國外的一些資料來調整我們現在健檢項目針對空檢的人那這邊剛剛委員講說這個如果這個這個同仁有這樣的問題的話其實在目前的法規裡面有規定雇主\n\n09:37.133 --> 09:59.754\n在一開始的針對空服員的身體健康狀況要做適性的配供在目前現行的法令就有這樣規定所以這個你要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的有些職業變成像胸腔的什麼會細症等等都有在做特殊那這個應該要納入所以這樣衛生部有沒有意見\n\n10:04.768 --> 10:29.707\n民航局局長你不要講一下你想到底在管理還是沒有那個謝謝委員剛剛提示到的有關那個組員的健康管理的部分確實有一些疾病其實是醫療上面的專業那我也會剛剛委員的建議就是說有關勞動部或者是這個跟這個相關醫師單位來訂這個的時候我們民航局也可以來加入一起\n\n10:30.256 --> 10:51.023\n因為我知道機師副機師他們好像半年就要做一次運動訓練圖一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學諸如此類的空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞這一種的有一些自體免疫的那些相次項目找專家來看看\n\n10:51.854 --> 11:18.961\n不然的話這個雖然病例不多但是偶爾都會發現那這種常常會造成遺憾的事情那這樣如果說他已經不舒服了他跟他的長官講跟他的座艙長講他到底是怎麼處理我們也不知道啦這個你們要再調查所以這一塊我希望我們部裡面要看看怎麼來做好好不好\n\n11:21.517 --> 11:30.887\n當然這是在我們勞工醫改這要做什麼我可以幫忙看可以找人來做一些特殊的好不好謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.444,"end":22.95,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝劉昭偉那我請部長 洪部長來 請部長還有我們的民航局局長請局長還有郭威中我們議事司議事司郭威中"},{"start":31.548,"end":45.7,"text":"專委好 部長您今天的職安法修訂是有四個主題嘛一個是職場霸凌啦什麼沿途管理啦什麼轉包的啦這些嘛還有綜華"},{"start":51.536,"end":79.37,"text":"好 我問你 因為我最近接了很多軍醫院的投訴那我要問你就是在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院他的員工都全部都是勞保嘛所以你們管理沒問題 你們治安管理那在軍醫院跟國家醫院就是那個教育部的醫院裡面有公務人員"},{"start":81.941,"end":96.392,"text":"業聘人員這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理如果產生霸凌的事情的時候一個是用公務人員一個是用勞動部這邊在醫院裡面都可以適用治安法"},{"start":97.423,"end":116.071,"text":"都是用治安法好那這些軍醫院的就是用職權上來壓迫或者是用言語在霸凌那這些業聘的人員早上都七八點就打電話來這樣走走走啦我請問劉俊國前輩可能你也有收到喔有喔"},{"start":122.774,"end":129.667,"text":"所以這 他們的投訴的話 加上投訴 因為雙保險啊搞到投訴之後 再跟劉建國投訴這樣 會比較穩那這個 你們要怎麼處理"},{"start":137.167,"end":163.053,"text":"像委員講這個案例他的這個身份的話基本上其實都是可以適用治安法的對那在這次裡面我們當然就是用這個職場霸凌專章的方式那如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況所以我們也把職場霸凌的定義那也包括該處理的程序也包括對於申訴人的保護其實這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面所以"},{"start":167.281,"end":188.96,"text":"不過我要求他們院方檢討也沒什麼下文很想開記者會但是又怕傷到因為同樣是異界的人給他傷及無辜所以這個要不要去查一下法輪部應該治安署知道了吧到現在不知道嗎"},{"start":190.437,"end":219.119,"text":"如果你有相關的案件當然可以轉給我們那當然我們可以來看他是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌那依照其實相關的程序我想就依照法治的程序來處理包括調查包括處置因為現在護理師護理人員缺的一塌糊塗大家都瘦命命過了過不去比較有可能再這樣這種事情的腐朽實在是無法想像所以金醫院今天金方隊員要來"},{"start":228.177,"end":242.645,"text":"所以選手這邊要去查一下你把相關的案件我把資料轉給你好 那再來就是沿途管理跟轉包的事情這些轉包的事情"},{"start":243.766,"end":260.012,"text":"因為我們的一個案子那甲子營造廠 超甲子營造廠來裱 一定會轉包嘛如果不轉包 吊車啦 什麼啦 這些都很貴的東西嘛所以轉包 或是請外面的人來做一個請外面的吊車 什麼 這種的你們的管理你們是怎麼管理"},{"start":271.992,"end":300.837,"text":"你聽我的意思啦跟委員說明第一個我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面看到在這個階段裡面我們的現在現在的法規業主是沒有責任的所以這一次業主是業主業主比方說對就比方說過去終結事件的業主是新復發新復發就是業主是沒有責任的可是其實業主在整體的這個案件的"},{"start":303.87,"end":328.737,"text":"資本的投入或者是經費的投入上面他們其實才是最主導者所以應該要讓業主科與這些相關如果資安發生的話或者是防治的責任那我們會從這個角度來去做相關的這個也要求要有一定的所以像那個案子就是終結這個案子是新戶發戶最後完全之責任是不是這樣"},{"start":329.918,"end":358.202,"text":"其實包括包商也會有可是我們過去的職安法的規定會讓常常變成最後追究責任者是最底層的那個包商最底層的那個包商然後業主最上面其實他的財力也好他公司規模他對整個案場的主導性的規模更大的業主都沒有責任我們覺得這是不合理的所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來那我問你這一件案子新募發最後處理的有沒有完善"},{"start":361.011,"end":372.239,"text":"還是什麼都塞塞給客人然後客人幫我倒就糟糕了這樣是不是這樣包含這個以現行的法律確實業主是沒辦法在治安法裡面科以責任沒有辦法所以現在修法有沒有有"},{"start":377.999,"end":396.218,"text":"跟文說明我們認為如果要把職場的安全做好的話其實業主願意投入一定的經費這個是安全的投資很重要今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話下面的包商下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待"},{"start":396.778,"end":422.778,"text":"所以業主要有一定的責任他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來這次是關鍵這個非常重要啦因為你入住你就是要負前輩的責任你要勇敢承擔 勇敢面對嘛不可以塞塞給你的轉包 轉包 轉包這一個工頭他怎麼會領著人家幫你付錢啦"},{"start":426.195,"end":453.573,"text":"啊你吊車 車吊車比較貴的一隻幾六億你當然也是要額外繳 繳來出事你親吳啊 你才負最後的完全責任所以這件事情處理得不漂亮還是有完善因為法規上面的限制所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究啊那這次修法要把它完善喔當然好 再來我請教部長"},{"start":456.615,"end":458.46,"text":"這個長榮這個事件大家都已經這兩天問到要怒了"},{"start":460.956,"end":484.683,"text":"我要說的是steel disease這個病是一種自體免疫的疾病這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題後天的問題但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會如果是日夜顛倒或者高壓或者是生理失蹤破壞它會加重"},{"start":486.042,"end":509.811,"text":"家中會腎臟有問題 會血管發炎甚至會猝死都有所以這個發生這種不幸 大家都很不敢你如果說要職業我們每一年都有做職業傷害的像機師他就做運動性練徒甚至於做核子醫學SALIM scan等等"},{"start":510.734,"end":533.33,"text":"那這些空無言事實上他們也是高強度日夜顛倒你在你的職業每一年的例行檢查這一些奇怪的這些要用點心思啦這要找出來這種人不適合做日夜顛倒的工作所以這個發生這種事大家都斷不掉"},{"start":534.811,"end":547.538,"text":"所以可以加賣這比較重要就是說他的每年我們一般每年勞工的那個檢查都是大概一些routine的嘛驗血、驗尿、X光那沒有啦那個驗不出來什麼東西啦"},{"start":553.215,"end":576.533,"text":"包委員有關於這個健康檢查的部分剛剛委員關心的這部分那如果說針對這個空服員他在這個執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目我們這次也要蒐集國外的一些資料來調整我們現在健檢項目針對空檢的人那這邊剛剛委員講說這個如果這個這個同仁有這樣的問題的話其實在目前的法規裡面有規定雇主"},{"start":577.133,"end":599.754,"text":"在一開始的針對空服員的身體健康狀況要做適性的配供在目前現行的法令就有這樣規定所以這個你要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的有些職業變成像胸腔的 什麼會細症等等都有在做特殊那這個應該要納入所以這樣 衛生部有沒有意見"},{"start":604.768,"end":629.707,"text":"民航局局長你不要講一下你想到底在管理還是沒有那個 謝謝委員剛剛提示到的有關那個組員的健康管理的部分確實有一些疾病其實是醫療上面的專業那我也會 剛剛委員的建議就是說有關勞動部或者是這個跟這個相關醫師單位來訂這個的時候我們民航局也可以來加入一起"},{"start":630.256,"end":651.023,"text":"因為我知道機師 副機師他們好像半年就要做一次運動訓練圖一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學諸如此類的空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞這一種的有一些自體免疫的那些相次 項目找專家來看看"},{"start":651.854,"end":678.961,"text":"不然的話這個雖然病例不多但是偶爾都會發現那這種常常會造成遺憾的事情那這樣如果說他已經不舒服了他跟他的長官講跟他的座艙長講他到底是怎麼處理我們也不知道啦這個你們要再調查所以這一塊我希望我們部裡面要看看怎麼來做好好不好"},{"start":681.517,"end":690.887,"text":"當然這是在我們勞工 醫改這要做什麼 我可以幫忙看可以找人來做一些特殊的 好不好謝謝委員"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時44分）謝謝劉召委，我請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有民航局局長。"],["主席：請局長。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有醫事司郭威中。"],["主席：醫事司郭威中專委。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，專委。部長，今天職安法修訂有4個主題，包括職場霸凌、源頭管理、轉包的部分還有重罰。因為我最近接到很多軍醫院的投訴，我要問你的是，在財團法人醫院跟社團法人醫院，它的員工全部都是保勞保，所以你們管理沒問題，即職安管理。在軍醫院跟國家醫院，就是教育部的醫院，裡面有公務人員也有約聘人員，這兩套人馬你們是怎麼管理的？如果產生霸凌事件的時候，一個是用公務人員，一個是用勞動部這邊的規定？"],["洪部長申翰：在醫院裡面都可以適用職安法。"],["蘇委員清泉：都是用職安法。這些軍醫院有人用職權上來壓迫，或者是用言語在霸凌，這些約聘人員早上七、八點就打電話來，他們覺得很害怕。我想劉建國召委可能也有接到投訴，有嗎？有啦。所以他們投訴到我這邊，再投訴到那裡，可說是雙保險啦，跟我投訴之後，再跟劉建國投訴，這樣比較穩啦！那這個你們要怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：像委員講的這個案例，以他這個身分來看，基本上都是可以適用職安法，所以在這一次修法裡面，我們當然就是用職場霸凌專章的方式，如果他遭受到的是職場霸凌的狀況，所以我們把職場霸凌的定義，包括該處理的程序，也包括對於申訴人的保護，這次也都放到我們職場霸凌的專章裡面。"],["蘇委員清泉：不過，我要求他們院方要檢討也沒什麼下文，很想開記者會，但是又怕會傷到，因為同樣是醫界的人，怕會傷及無辜，所以這個勞動部要不要去查一下？職安署應該知道了吧！到現在還不知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，如果你有相關的案件，當然可以轉給我們，我們可以來看它是屬於不法侵害還是職場霸凌，那依照相關的程序，我想就依照法制的程序來處理，包括調查、包括處置。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在護理師、護理人員缺得一塌糊塗，大家都很珍惜他們，顧都來不及了，哪有可能讓這種事情發生，實在是無法想像，所以軍醫院，今天軍方的人有沒有來？沒人來？所以職安署這邊要去查一下，我們把……"],["洪部長申翰：請把相關的案件……"],["蘇委員清泉：我把資料轉給你。","再來就是源頭管理跟轉包的事情，關於這些轉包的事情，因為我們的一個案子，甲級營造廠、特甲級營造廠來標，他一定會轉包嘛，他如果沒轉包，像吊車等等都很貴，所以轉包還是請外面的人來做一個……請外面的吊車等等，這部分你們是怎麼管理的？你聽得懂我的意思吧！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，第一個，我們其實也是檢視現階段的法規裡面，看到在這個階段裡面，依我們現在的法規，業主是沒有責任的，所以這次業主……"],["蘇委員清泉：業主？"],["洪部長申翰：業主。比方說，過去中捷事件的業主是興富發，就是業主是沒有責任的，可是業主在整體案件資本的投入，或者是經費的投入上面，他們其實才是最主導者，所以應該要對業主課予這些相關的責任，如果職安發生問題的話，或者是防治的責任，我們會從這個角度來去做相關的……也要求要有一定的……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以像那個案子，就是中捷這個案子是興富發負最後完全之責任，是不是這樣？"],["洪部長申翰：其實包括包商也會有，可是我們過去職安法的規定，常常變成最後追究責任只是最底層的那個包商。"],["蘇委員清泉：那就穩死了。"],["洪部長申翰：然後業主、最上面，其實不管是他的財力也好，他的公司規模，他對整個案場的主導性，規模更大的業主都沒有責任，我們覺得這是不合理的，所以才在這次修法裡面把業主的責任放進來。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，那我問你，這個案子興富發最後處理的有沒有完善？還是都推到下面，下面的就讓它倒閉，然後就跑路了，是不是這樣？"],["林署長毓堂：報告委員，以現行的法令，確實業主是沒辦法在職安法裡面課予責任。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒有辦法？"],["林署長毓堂：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在的修法有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：有。跟委員說明，我們認為如果要把職場安全做好的話，其實業主願意投入一定的經費，這個是安全的投資，很重要，今天如果業主不願意對於安全進行投資的話，下面的包商、下面執行的人怎麼做都很難符合大家的期待，所以業主要有一定的責任，他願意投入一定的成本在這個上面，來讓下面的包商有經費能夠好好把安全的問題給做好，所以這時候為什麼要把業主的角色在這次修法給拉出來，這是關鍵。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個非常重要，因為業主就是要負最後的責任，你要勇敢承擔、勇敢面對，不能推給你的……轉包又轉包又轉包的，一個工頭他哪有能力來負這個責任？像吊車，一臺吊車比較貴的可能要好幾億，他當然也是要從外面叫過來，叫過來之後如果出事了，興富發就要負最後的完全責任，所以這件事情處理得不漂亮，還是有完善？我一直在關心……"],["洪部長申翰：因為法規上面的限制，所以變成我們很難對業主進行相關責任的追究。"],["蘇委員清泉：這次修法要把它完善哦！"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來我要請教部長，長榮這個事件這兩天大家都已經問到快爛掉了，我要說的就是，Still's Disease這個病是一種autoimmune，就是自體免疫的疾病，這種自體免疫疾病是基因的問題、後天的問題，但是這種自體免疫疾病一定會……如果是日夜顛倒，或者是高壓，或者是生理時鐘破壞的話也會加重，若加重會腎臟有問題、血管發炎，甚至猝死的都有，所以發生這種不幸，大家都很不捨。我們每一年都有做職業傷害的檢查，像機師就有做運動心電圖，甚至於做核子醫學thallium scan等等，這些空服員，事實上他們也是高強度、日夜顛倒。你在你的職業，在每一年的例行職業檢查中，對於這一些奇怪的狀況要用點心思、要找出來，這種病人就不適合做日夜顛倒的工作。發生這種事，大家都受不了，所以能不能加？這很重要喔！一般來說，每年勞工檢查都是那些routine的，例如驗血、驗尿、X光，那些沒用，驗不出什麼東西啦！"],["林署長毓堂：報告委員，關於委員剛剛關心的健康檢查這個部分，針對空服員在執行上是不是有特殊的檢查項目，我們這次也要蒐集一些國外資料，以調整現在針對空勤人員的健檢項目。至於剛剛委員講到如果這個同仁有這樣的問題，其實目前的法規裡有規定，雇主在一開始就要針對空服員的身體健康狀況做適性配工，現行法令就有這樣的規定。"],["蘇委員清泉：要會同醫師來做這些不同職業的檢查，對於有些職業病，像是胸腔的矽肺症等等都有特殊的，這些應該納入。衛福部有沒有意見？","民航局局長，你不講一下嗎？你到底有沒有在管理？"],["主席：來，講一下。"],["何局長淑萍：謝謝委員。剛剛提示到關於組員健康管理的部分，確實有些疾病是醫療上的專業，委員剛剛的建議，就是關於勞動部與相關醫事單位訂這個的時候，我們民航局也可以加入，一起來做。"],["蘇委員清泉：我知道機師、副機師好像半年就要做一次運動心電圖，一有問題就抓起來做核子醫學檢查，諸如此類。空服員這邊是生理時鐘都打壞，針對這種自體免疫的項次、項目，要找專家來看看。不然的話，雖然病例不多，但偶爾仍會發現，而且這種情況常常會造成遺憾的事情。像是他已經不舒服、跟他的長官講、跟他的座艙長講，但他到底怎麼處理我們也不知道，你們還要再調查。對於這一塊，我希望部裡要看看怎麼樣做好。"],["洪部長申翰：當然，這是我們勞動部的職權。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果醫界這邊需要做什麼，我可以幫忙啦！看能不能找人來做一些特殊的檢查。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請廖偉翔召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}