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{\"word\": \"濟\"}, {\"word\": \"作\", \"start\": 785.851, \"end\": 786.271, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 786.271, \"end\": 786.471, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 786.471, \"end\": 786.911, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"討\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 786.911, \"end\": 787.952, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 787.952, \"end\": 788.072, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 788.072, \"end\": 788.092, \"score\": 0.439}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,886 --> 00:00:25,787\n謝謝主席那請洪部長來請洪部長然後還有我們交通部的代表交通部代表就局長還是市長和局長好了市長跟局長好過來廖委員長\n\n2\n00:00:27,611 --> 00:00:55,882\n部長招然後還有局長市長那剛剛很多人也都問了為什麼這個長榮罰不怕是不是罰太輕或等等的那其實剛剛也有委員問部長說修法的部分為什麼我們修的比較減少好你說有些國家呢注重於用法來處罰對不對就是用司法用司法來處罰嘛對不對那有一些國家注重公司治理對不對\n\n3\n00:00:56,522 --> 00:01:17,102\n好那我想要看一下我們的這個第一頁因為本席有看到這個你看一下這個是長榮的一個空服員他說前陣子一趟紅眼航班我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下那因為服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序而被懲處\n\n4\n00:01:19,244 --> 00:01:46,037\n好那他說很多人說規定就是規定可是我始終覺得要保障人而不是犧牲人讓需要的人休息不應該是一件被檢討的事好所以他這兩天他看到這個學妹出事的新聞他心裡很難過好那簡單來講本席看到這篇文章的時候他簡單來講這個空服員他就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息然後呢他被公司處罰了\n\n5\n00:01:47,895 --> 00:02:13,249\n他被公司處罰了那我想要請問這是不是剛剛部長說法律你說有些人喜歡用司法處理有些人喜歡用公司治理處理這是不是公司治理出了問題那你們該做些什麼事情我剛剛講的跟這部分是兩件事情我剛剛在講的部分比較是職場霸凌的這個處理的機制我剛剛講的是職場霸凌的機制因為剛剛跟沒有其實我知道但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天考\n\n6\n00:02:13,729 --> 00:02:27,259\n就是討論的議題有關嗎對但是我剛才回答陳英衛委員這部分是指職場霸凌的法治體制那這部分當然是另外一個部分對所以我想要請問一下那這樣子的話這樣的情況部長你怎麼看然後我們該怎麼處理\n\n7\n00:02:29,180 --> 00:02:54,398\n跟文說們的確我們認為這個人其實我這個是他公開的臉書貼文啦但是他其實還有另外的懲處單啦很正名的一件事情這樣子的企業文化他意思是說在飛機上他讓該休息人休息結果他被懲處了那你說今天是不是就是一個單一座艙長的問題還是是整個企業文化出了問題所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答我的意思就是說那\n\n8\n00:02:55,459 --> 00:03:18,253\n在司法上面如果現在不能處理的話請問在公司製理面你們有什麼想法呢部長或者是我們的民航局因為剛剛也有說罰不怕第一個罰不怕嘛那第二個剛剛也有委員問說那他是不是不怕你勞動部他比較怕交通部那好我們現在不去究竟說到底誰怕誰這公司製理是不是出了問題\n\n9\n00:03:19,930 --> 00:03:37,061\n我們的確看到長榮航空長期的勞資關係的文化跟管理的文化其實是對於很多的基層員工把他們的需求可以表達出來是不太友善的\n\n10\n00:03:37,461 --> 00:03:55,235\n那部長這該怎麼做因為剛剛說我罰不怕嘛你剛剛說那個不管請假啊每一次罰兩萬啊或等等一個是我們當然對於這個處罰的狀況我們會來跟地方的勞檢單位來討論是不是該加重是情節來加重的就應該加重這是一個\n\n11\n00:03:56,089 --> 00:04:12,276\n那第二個當然我也表的我們也表達我們認為公司應該要誠懇的和基層員工和工會來針對他們的需求協商因為他這個事情其實跟今天這是有很大的關係喔你看他連一個一個\n\n12\n00:04:13,616 --> 00:04:33,047\n其他的個案會讓大家有寒蟬消音嗎那另外其他座廠長或者是在裡面的學姐他敢讓自己的學妹或者其他不舒服的人讓他休息嗎不敢對不對所以導致今天的憾事那我就想要問了好部長你剛等於沒辦法回答嗎那我想問那這個交通部這裡你們在公司治理上你們可以要求些什麼\n\n13\n00:04:33,960 --> 00:05:01,451\n我想跟委員報告有關這個在飛機上的執勤時間或者是相關的任務如果組員有表達他的不舒服那實際上在上面的事務長是可以來調整他的工作那如果說已經表達了那公司制度上事務長還不同意或者是什麼我們會就譬如說相關的個案我們會去調查那如果真的有違反民航法的相關規定的話那我們是可以來所以這個事情你們要啟動調查嘛對不對\n\n14\n00:05:02,971 --> 00:05:31,969\n因為這個是對今天看看我們再來看看這個實際的個案是什麼樣的一個情形就是包含這次出事的我覺得他是一個看到的個案他背後一定是一個治理的問題還有包含剛所謂企業文化公司治理的問題好那當然裁罰部分剛剛部長有回答應該要是情況增加因為他看起來是完全是法不怕好這件事情我們今天先就是先到這我下一題我要問這個可以司長和局長們可以回座我要問部長\n\n15\n00:05:33,018 --> 00:05:53,426\n部長去年發生北分署的霸凌案件也導致的這一次執安法的霸凌專章納進去那部長你上任之後也有信誓旦旦說要就過去救安基金濫用的情形進行整頓所以在幾次的立法院的諮詢中也有提到一些相關的改革計劃對不對\n\n16\n00:05:54,767 --> 00:06:09,422\n好那我想請問一下我們正在做那我想請教一下對你們正在做了嗎對不對那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些再講一次好嗎我們其實是從他的支出面跟管理面那也包括資訊公開的部分在救安基金的這個\n\n17\n00:06:11,324 --> 00:06:39,399\n管理的強化上面那也包括我們其實把一些其實不該放入到救援基金比方說一些禮品的採購我們是直接就把它停下來了那我們也增加了內機跟內控跟外機的機制好所以部長所以你有講幾個方面嘛然後第一個你說還有包含支出面嘛對不對好那我們就從支出面來講你可以看一下下一頁簡報當初你們的用途面說爭取合理編列公務預算對吧\n\n18\n00:06:40,279 --> 00:07:02,178\n然後呢還有包含因此目前編列的就業安定基金的相關的行政管理費用正式編制職員人事費用國外旅費辦公處所修繕的行政費用跟這些無關的相關的費用你都要編入公務預算對嗎我們希望爭取是吧對不對我們希望爭取好那下一頁喔\n\n19\n00:07:05,754 --> 00:07:25,244\n所以你可以看到你們現在依據你們的編列的部分包含著就業安定基金之用原則基金應該限於提升訓練人員職業職能參與國際技能賽事與交流辦理外國人來源國際業務等用途但是你們明年度的就安基金的計劃\n\n20\n00:07:26,843 --> 00:07:46,409\n第一個還是有將出國旅費公務員的薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入好我們就用正式的原額來說好用人費剛剛你裡面有提到的正式編制人員的人事費用你要去改進檢討而且你也正在進行中對嗎可是你可以看到\n\n21\n00:07:47,129 --> 00:08:00,585\n我們就業安定基金這兩個計畫外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡面的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的到明年度115年更是增加了很多從這個2900萬變成4300萬再變成6000\n\n22\n00:08:07,752 --> 00:08:25,629\n將近6000萬這個是用人費用外國聘管的部分在促進國民就業計畫你的用人費用也是一樣從900萬成長到今年是1600多萬到明年是3000萬都是增加千萬以上的等級所以我本席想問的就是你的針對你的精進作為\n\n23\n00:08:26,570 --> 00:08:48,370\n你看起來是空投支票你是沒有做到你的承諾包含這個人事費用我剛也給你看了你當初的報告是這樣寫所以你是不是你是不是背棄了你的承諾你是不是沒有做到你的承諾跟委員說絕對不是你想的背棄第一個我們其實是有跟行政院來爭取\n\n24\n00:08:50,666 --> 00:09:20,180\n就像刚才讲的出国计划我们是有跟行政院讲我们先讲我们先救人事费就好你上面有说你的精进作为嘛对正式编制人员的人事费用人事费用的部分其实是我们在讲到说这个现在其实是以比例的分担那我们其实这是跟人种的讨论我们当然其实也希望能够争取更多能够回编到公务预算我们跟很简单因为你的精进作为简单来讲就是没做到嘛\n\n25\n00:09:21,168 --> 00:09:42,502\n那而且你也不能夠說第一個你說主計總書不給你人不是我跟委員說明我們其實跟主總在今年上半年我們其實非常非常積極的跟主總討論很多次跟主總希望能夠爭取有一些過去其實用在救安基金的人事費是不是能夠回編到公務預算裡面但因為\n\n26\n00:09:44,123 --> 00:09:58,151\n現在財務法通過以後整體中央的這個財政的預渡其實也受到了影響所以後來我們並沒有全部原本的期待都爭取回去部長很好下一頁好第一個\n\n27\n00:09:58,951 --> 00:10:15,581\n你們現在勞動力發展所的人是有增加的好你有增加了但是你現在基金就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多然後你剛剛提到才化法我早就料到你會這樣講下一頁115年勞動部主管的預算比上114年增加了多少\n\n28\n00:10:17,386 --> 00:10:41,017\n增加了43億多將近44億啊那部長你還要去扯財化法這第一件事第二件事情委員你要看裡面的工作項目啊因為工作項目也增加了啊你的精進作為已經承諾了所以你現在又再把它推到各種的理由上面那你是不是把你的精進作為視為無誤那你當初還需要花這麼多時間來報告你的就業安定計劃嗎跟委員說明第一個\n\n29\n00:10:41,937 --> 00:10:53,885\n不是只單純看這個金額你要看我們的工作的項目有沒有增加這就是非常簡單的數字你要去扯好多細項你說有什麼東西但是你的勞動主管一定增加了43億多啊那我跟你說這兩件事情我只是要扣回去跟你說就業安定基金你根本沒有做到你的精進作為\n\n30\n00:11:05,513 --> 00:11:25,904\n因為你的人事聘用增加了非常多委員你把你的這個投影片可以往前看那張我其實最前面那張部長我要跟你說你現在在這裡詭辯我們其實就是說我們會盡力的來爭取合理編列公務預算我們在上半年不斷的跟組總在做這部分的爭取\n\n31\n00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:44,150\n那我們成功的爭取迴遍公務預算2.多億我們白紙黑字就寫爭取合理編列公務預算所以你現在是要說你想要改進就業基金安安定基金濫用的情況但是行政院不支持你嗎\n\n32\n00:11:44,910 --> 00:12:09,131\n主總在這一次的財務上面他因為這個財務法的編列財政預渡有下降你承諾出來的東西就應該要做到而不是用各種理由去推脫你在下一頁我們就很簡單的看你上面就說你人事的正式編列預算應該要回到公務預算嘛那你現在公務預算也增加了結果你就業安定基金的這個人事費用也增加了\n\n33\n00:12:09,724 --> 00:12:12,706\n那我們不知道我們在監督什麼那你當初的基金作為是什麼呢\n\n34\n00:12:40,184 --> 00:13:08,092\n並不是拿去買禮物並不是拿去做其他跟救難基金無關的用途來沒關係再上一頁好我現在不想要跟你吵下去了因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡我要多邊緣邊緣啊因為用什麼可是你這裡就講得很簡單嘛所以我就是要告訴你你的經濟作為現在和你編出來的預算是不一樣的我要請你希望你依照當初的經濟作為去做檢討好以上質詢謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12886\t25787\t謝謝主席那請洪部長來請洪部長然後還有我們交通部的代表交通部代表就局長還是 市長和局長好了市長跟局長好 過來廖委員長\n27611\t55882\t部長招然後還有局長市長那剛剛很多人也都問了為什麼這個長榮罰不怕是不是罰太輕或等等的那其實剛剛也有委員問部長說修法的部分為什麼我們修的比較減少好你說有些國家呢注重於用法來處罰對不對就是用司法用司法來處罰嘛對不對那有一些國家注重公司治理對不對\n56522\t77102\t好 那我想要看一下我們的這個第一頁因為本席有看到這個你看一下 這個是長榮的一個空服員他說前陣子一趟紅眼航班我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下那因為服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序而被懲處\n79244\t106037\t好那他說很多人說規定就是規定可是我始終覺得要保障人而不是犧牲人讓需要的人休息不應該是一件被檢討的事好所以他這兩天他看到這個學妹出事的新聞他心裡很難過好那簡單來講本席看到這篇文章的時候他簡單來講這個空服員他就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息然後呢他被公司處罰了\n107895\t133249\t他被公司處罰了那我想要請問這是不是剛剛部長說法律你說有些人喜歡用司法處理有些人喜歡用公司治理處理這是不是公司治理出了問題那你們該做些什麼事情我剛剛講的跟這部分是兩件事情我剛剛在講的部分比較是職場霸凌的這個處理的機制我剛剛講的是職場霸凌的機制因為剛剛跟沒有其實我知道但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天考\n133729\t147259\t就是討論的議題有關嗎對 但是我剛才回答陳英衛委員這部分是指職場霸凌的法治體制那這部分當然是另外一個部分對 所以我想要請問一下那這樣子的話這樣的情況部長你怎麼看然後我們該怎麼處理\n149180\t174398\t跟文說們的確我們認為這個人其實我這個是他公開的臉書貼文啦但是他其實還有另外的懲處單啦很正名的一件事情這樣子的企業文化他意思是說在飛機上他讓該休息人休息結果他被懲處了那你說今天是不是就是一個單一座艙長的問題還是是整個企業文化出了問題所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答我的意思就是說那\n175459\t198253\t在司法上面如果現在不能處理的話請問在公司製理面你們有什麼想法呢部長或者是我們的民航局因為剛剛也有說罰不怕第一個罰不怕嘛那第二個剛剛也有委員問說那他是不是不怕你勞動部他比較怕交通部那好我們現在不去究竟說到底誰怕誰這公司製理是不是出了問題\n199930\t217061\t我們的確看到長榮航空長期的勞資關係的文化跟管理的文化其實是對於很多的基層員工把他們的需求可以表達出來是不太友善的\n217461\t235235\t那部長這該怎麼做因為剛剛說我罰不怕嘛你剛剛說那個不管請假啊每一次罰兩萬啊或等等一個是我們當然對於這個處罰的狀況我們會來跟地方的勞檢單位來討論是不是該加重是情節來加重的就應該加重這是一個\n236089\t252276\t那第二個當然我也表的我們也表達我們認為公司應該要誠懇的和基層員工和工會來針對他們的需求協商因為他這個事情其實跟今天這是有很大的關係喔你看他連一個一個\n253616\t273047\t其他的個案會讓大家有寒蟬消音嗎那另外其他座廠長或者是在裡面的學姐他敢讓自己的學妹或者其他不舒服的人讓他休息嗎不敢對不對所以導致今天的憾事那我就想要問了好部長你剛等於沒辦法回答嗎那我想問那這個交通部這裡你們在公司治理上你們可以要求些什麼\n273960\t301451\t我想跟委員報告有關這個在飛機上的執勤時間或者是相關的任務如果組員有表達他的不舒服那實際上在上面的事務長是可以來調整他的工作那如果說已經表達了那公司制度上事務長還不同意或者是什麼我們會就譬如說相關的個案我們會去調查那如果真的有違反民航法的相關規定的話那我們是可以來所以這個事情你們要啟動調查嘛對不對\n302971\t331969\t因為這個是對今天看看我們再來看看這個實際的個案是什麼樣的一個情形就是包含這次出事的我覺得他是一個看到的個案他背後一定是一個治理的問題還有包含剛所謂企業文化公司治理的問題好那當然裁罰部分剛剛部長有回答應該要是情況增加因為他看起來是完全是法不怕好這件事情我們今天先就是先到這我下一題我要問這個可以司長和局長們可以回座我要問部長\n333018\t353426\t部長去年發生北分署的霸凌案件也導致的這一次執安法的霸凌專章納進去那部長你上任之後也有信誓旦旦說要就過去救安基金濫用的情形進行整頓所以在幾次的立法院的諮詢中也有提到一些相關的改革計劃對不對\n354767\t369422\t好那我想請問一下我們正在做那我想請教一下對你們正在做了嗎對不對那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些再講一次好嗎我們其實是從他的支出面跟管理面那也包括資訊公開的部分在救安基金的這個\n371324\t399399\t管理的強化上面那也包括我們其實把一些其實不該放入到救援基金比方說一些禮品的採購我們是直接就把它停下來了那我們也增加了內機跟內控跟外機的機制好所以部長所以你有講幾個方面嘛然後第一個你說還有包含支出面嘛對不對好那我們就從支出面來講你可以看一下下一頁簡報當初你們的用途面說爭取合理編列公務預算對吧\n400279\t422178\t然後呢還有包含因此目前編列的就業安定基金的相關的行政管理費用正式編制職員人事費用國外旅費辦公處所修繕的行政費用跟這些無關的相關的費用你都要編入公務預算 對嗎我們希望爭取是吧 對不對我們希望爭取好 那下一頁喔\n425754\t445244\t所以你可以看到你們現在依據你們的編列的部分包含著就業安定基金之用原則基金應該限於提升訓練人員職業職能參與國際技能賽事與交流辦理外國人來源國際業務等用途但是你們明年度的就安基金的計劃\n446843\t466409\t第一個還是有將出國旅費公務員的薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入好我們就用正式的原額來說好用人費剛剛你裡面有提到的正式編制人員的人事費用你要去改進檢討而且你也正在進行中對嗎可是你可以看到\n467129\t480585\t我們就業安定基金這兩個計畫外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡面的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的到明年度115年更是增加了很多從這個2900萬變成4300萬再變成6000\n487752\t505629\t將近6000萬這個是用人費用外國聘管的部分在促進國民就業計畫你的用人費用也是一樣從900萬成長到今年是1600多萬到明年是3000萬都是增加千萬以上的等級所以我本席想問的就是你的針對你的精進作為\n506570\t528370\t你看起來是空投支票你是沒有做到你的承諾包含這個人事費用我剛也給你看了你當初的報告是這樣寫所以你是不是你是不是背棄了你的承諾你是不是沒有做到你的承諾跟委員說絕對不是你想的背棄第一個我們其實是有跟行政院來爭取\n530666\t560180\t就像刚才讲的出国计划我们是有跟行政院讲我们先讲我们先救人事费就好你上面有说你的精进作为嘛对正式编制人员的人事费用人事费用的部分其实是我们在讲到说这个现在其实是以比例的分担那我们其实这是跟人种的讨论我们当然其实也希望能够争取更多能够回编到公务预算我们跟很简单因为你的精进作为简单来讲就是没做到嘛\n561168\t582502\t那而且你也不能夠說第一個你說主計總書不給你人不是我跟委員說明我們其實跟主總在今年上半年我們其實非常非常積極的跟主總討論很多次跟主總希望能夠爭取有一些過去其實用在救安基金的人事費是不是能夠回編到公務預算裡面但因為\n584123\t598151\t現在財務法通過以後整體中央的這個財政的預渡其實也受到了影響所以後來我們並沒有全部原本的期待都爭取回去部長很好 下一頁好 第一個\n598951\t615581\t你們現在勞動力發展所的人是有增加的好你有增加了但是你現在基金就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多然後你剛剛提到才化法我早就料到你會這樣講下一頁115年勞動部主管的預算比上114年增加了多少\n617386\t641017\t增加了43億多將近44億啊那部長你還要去扯財化法這第一件事第二件事情 委員你要看裡面的工作項目啊因為工作項目也增加了啊你的精進作為已經承諾了所以你現在又再把它推到各種的理由上面那你是不是把你的精進作為視為無誤那你當初還需要花這麼多時間來報告你的就業安定計劃嗎跟委員說明 第一個\n641937\t653885\t不是只單純看這個金額 你要看我們的工作的項目有沒有增加這就是非常簡單的數字 你要去扯好多細項 你說有什麼東西但是你的勞動主管一定增加了43億多啊那我跟你說 這兩件事情 我只是要扣回去跟你說就業安定基金 你根本沒有做到你的精進作為\n665513\t685904\t因為你的人事聘用增加了非常多委員你把你的這個投影片可以往前看那張我其實最前面那張部長我要跟你說你現在在這裡詭辯我們其實就是說我們會盡力的來爭取合理編列公務預算我們在上半年不斷的跟組總在做這部分的爭取\n687160\t704150\t那我們成功的爭取迴遍公務預算2.多億我們白紙黑字就寫爭取合理編列公務預算所以你現在是要說你想要改進就業基金安安定基金濫用的情況但是行政院不支持你嗎\n704910\t729131\t主總在這一次的財務上面 他因為這個財務法的編列 財政預渡有下降你承諾出來的東西就應該要做到 而不是用各種理由去推脫你在下一頁 我們就很簡單的看你上面就說你人事的正式編列預算應該要回到公務預算嘛那你現在公務預算也增加了 結果你就業安定基金的這個人事費用也增加了\n729724\t732706\t那我們不知道我們在監督什麼那你當初的基金作為是什麼呢\n760184\t788092\t並不是拿去買禮物並不是拿去做其他跟救難基金無關的用途來沒關係再上一頁好我現在不想要跟你吵下去了因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡我要多邊緣邊緣啊因為用什麼可是你這裡就講得很簡單嘛所以我就是要告訴你你的經濟作為現在和你編出來的預算是不一樣的我要請你希望你依照當初的經濟作為去做檢討好以上質詢謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席那請洪部長來請洪部長然後還有我們交通部的代表交通部代表就局長還是 市長和局長好了市長跟局長好 過來廖委員長\n部長招然後還有局長市長那剛剛很多人也都問了為什麼這個長榮罰不怕是不是罰太輕或等等的那其實剛剛也有委員問部長說修法的部分為什麼我們修的比較減少好你說有些國家呢注重於用法來處罰對不對就是用司法用司法來處罰嘛對不對那有一些國家注重公司治理對不對\n好 那我想要看一下我們的這個第一頁因為本席有看到這個你看一下 這個是長榮的一個空服員他說前陣子一趟紅眼航班我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下那因為服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序而被懲處\n好那他說很多人說規定就是規定可是我始終覺得要保障人而不是犧牲人讓需要的人休息不應該是一件被檢討的事好所以他這兩天他看到這個學妹出事的新聞他心裡很難過好那簡單來講本席看到這篇文章的時候他簡單來講這個空服員他就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息然後呢他被公司處罰了\n他被公司處罰了那我想要請問這是不是剛剛部長說法律你說有些人喜歡用司法處理有些人喜歡用公司治理處理這是不是公司治理出了問題那你們該做些什麼事情我剛剛講的跟這部分是兩件事情我剛剛在講的部分比較是職場霸凌的這個處理的機制我剛剛講的是職場霸凌的機制因為剛剛跟沒有其實我知道但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天考\n就是討論的議題有關嗎對 但是我剛才回答陳英衛委員這部分是指職場霸凌的法治體制那這部分當然是另外一個部分對 所以我想要請問一下那這樣子的話這樣的情況部長你怎麼看然後我們該怎麼處理\n跟文說們的確我們認為這個人其實我這個是他公開的臉書貼文啦但是他其實還有另外的懲處單啦很正名的一件事情這樣子的企業文化他意思是說在飛機上他讓該休息人休息結果他被懲處了那你說今天是不是就是一個單一座艙長的問題還是是整個企業文化出了問題所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答我的意思就是說那\n在司法上面如果現在不能處理的話請問在公司製理面你們有什麼想法呢部長或者是我們的民航局因為剛剛也有說罰不怕第一個罰不怕嘛那第二個剛剛也有委員問說那他是不是不怕你勞動部他比較怕交通部那好我們現在不去究竟說到底誰怕誰這公司製理是不是出了問題\n我們的確看到長榮航空長期的勞資關係的文化跟管理的文化其實是對於很多的基層員工把他們的需求可以表達出來是不太友善的\n那部長這該怎麼做因為剛剛說我罰不怕嘛你剛剛說那個不管請假啊每一次罰兩萬啊或等等一個是我們當然對於這個處罰的狀況我們會來跟地方的勞檢單位來討論是不是該加重是情節來加重的就應該加重這是一個\n那第二個當然我也表的我們也表達我們認為公司應該要誠懇的和基層員工和工會來針對他們的需求協商因為他這個事情其實跟今天這是有很大的關係喔你看他連一個一個\n其他的個案會讓大家有寒蟬消音嗎那另外其他座廠長或者是在裡面的學姐他敢讓自己的學妹或者其他不舒服的人讓他休息嗎不敢對不對所以導致今天的憾事那我就想要問了好部長你剛等於沒辦法回答嗎那我想問那這個交通部這裡你們在公司治理上你們可以要求些什麼\n我想跟委員報告有關這個在飛機上的執勤時間或者是相關的任務如果組員有表達他的不舒服那實際上在上面的事務長是可以來調整他的工作那如果說已經表達了那公司制度上事務長還不同意或者是什麼我們會就譬如說相關的個案我們會去調查那如果真的有違反民航法的相關規定的話那我們是可以來所以這個事情你們要啟動調查嘛對不對\n因為這個是對今天看看我們再來看看這個實際的個案是什麼樣的一個情形就是包含這次出事的我覺得他是一個看到的個案他背後一定是一個治理的問題還有包含剛所謂企業文化公司治理的問題好那當然裁罰部分剛剛部長有回答應該要是情況增加因為他看起來是完全是法不怕好這件事情我們今天先就是先到這我下一題我要問這個可以司長和局長們可以回座我要問部長\n部長去年發生北分署的霸凌案件也導致的這一次執安法的霸凌專章納進去那部長你上任之後也有信誓旦旦說要就過去救安基金濫用的情形進行整頓所以在幾次的立法院的諮詢中也有提到一些相關的改革計劃對不對\n好那我想請問一下我們正在做那我想請教一下對你們正在做了嗎對不對那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些再講一次好嗎我們其實是從他的支出面跟管理面那也包括資訊公開的部分在救安基金的這個\n管理的強化上面那也包括我們其實把一些其實不該放入到救援基金比方說一些禮品的採購我們是直接就把它停下來了那我們也增加了內機跟內控跟外機的機制好所以部長所以你有講幾個方面嘛然後第一個你說還有包含支出面嘛對不對好那我們就從支出面來講你可以看一下下一頁簡報當初你們的用途面說爭取合理編列公務預算對吧\n然後呢還有包含因此目前編列的就業安定基金的相關的行政管理費用正式編制職員人事費用國外旅費辦公處所修繕的行政費用跟這些無關的相關的費用你都要編入公務預算 對嗎我們希望爭取是吧 對不對我們希望爭取好 那下一頁喔\n所以你可以看到你們現在依據你們的編列的部分包含著就業安定基金之用原則基金應該限於提升訓練人員職業職能參與國際技能賽事與交流辦理外國人來源國際業務等用途但是你們明年度的就安基金的計劃\n第一個還是有將出國旅費公務員的薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入好我們就用正式的原額來說好用人費剛剛你裡面有提到的正式編制人員的人事費用你要去改進檢討而且你也正在進行中對嗎可是你可以看到\n我們就業安定基金這兩個計畫外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡面的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的到明年度115年更是增加了很多從這個2900萬變成4300萬再變成6000\n將近6000萬這個是用人費用外國聘管的部分在促進國民就業計畫你的用人費用也是一樣從900萬成長到今年是1600多萬到明年是3000萬都是增加千萬以上的等級所以我本席想問的就是你的針對你的精進作為\n你看起來是空投支票你是沒有做到你的承諾包含這個人事費用我剛也給你看了你當初的報告是這樣寫所以你是不是你是不是背棄了你的承諾你是不是沒有做到你的承諾跟委員說絕對不是你想的背棄第一個我們其實是有跟行政院來爭取\n就像刚才讲的出国计划我们是有跟行政院讲我们先讲我们先救人事费就好你上面有说你的精进作为嘛对正式编制人员的人事费用人事费用的部分其实是我们在讲到说这个现在其实是以比例的分担那我们其实这是跟人种的讨论我们当然其实也希望能够争取更多能够回编到公务预算我们跟很简单因为你的精进作为简单来讲就是没做到嘛\n那而且你也不能夠說第一個你說主計總書不給你人不是我跟委員說明我們其實跟主總在今年上半年我們其實非常非常積極的跟主總討論很多次跟主總希望能夠爭取有一些過去其實用在救安基金的人事費是不是能夠回編到公務預算裡面但因為\n現在財務法通過以後整體中央的這個財政的預渡其實也受到了影響所以後來我們並沒有全部原本的期待都爭取回去部長很好 下一頁好 第一個\n你們現在勞動力發展所的人是有增加的好你有增加了但是你現在基金就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多然後你剛剛提到才化法我早就料到你會這樣講下一頁115年勞動部主管的預算比上114年增加了多少\n增加了43億多將近44億啊那部長你還要去扯財化法這第一件事第二件事情 委員你要看裡面的工作項目啊因為工作項目也增加了啊你的精進作為已經承諾了所以你現在又再把它推到各種的理由上面那你是不是把你的精進作為視為無誤那你當初還需要花這麼多時間來報告你的就業安定計劃嗎跟委員說明 第一個\n不是只單純看這個金額 你要看我們的工作的項目有沒有增加這就是非常簡單的數字 你要去扯好多細項 你說有什麼東西但是你的勞動主管一定增加了43億多啊那我跟你說 這兩件事情 我只是要扣回去跟你說就業安定基金 你根本沒有做到你的精進作為\n因為你的人事聘用增加了非常多委員你把你的這個投影片可以往前看那張我其實最前面那張部長我要跟你說你現在在這裡詭辯我們其實就是說我們會盡力的來爭取合理編列公務預算我們在上半年不斷的跟組總在做這部分的爭取\n那我們成功的爭取迴遍公務預算2.多億我們白紙黑字就寫爭取合理編列公務預算所以你現在是要說你想要改進就業基金安安定基金濫用的情況但是行政院不支持你嗎\n主總在這一次的財務上面 他因為這個財務法的編列 財政預渡有下降你承諾出來的東西就應該要做到 而不是用各種理由去推脫你在下一頁 我們就很簡單的看你上面就說你人事的正式編列預算應該要回到公務預算嘛那你現在公務預算也增加了 結果你就業安定基金的這個人事費用也增加了\n那我們不知道我們在監督什麼那你當初的基金作為是什麼呢\n並不是拿去買禮物並不是拿去做其他跟救難基金無關的用途來沒關係再上一頁好我現在不想要跟你吵下去了因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡我要多邊緣邊緣啊因為用什麼可是你這裡就講得很簡單嘛所以我就是要告訴你你的經濟作為現在和你編出來的預算是不一樣的我要請你希望你依照當初的經濟作為去做檢討好以上質詢謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.886 --> 00:25.787\n謝謝主席那請洪部長來請洪部長然後還有我們交通部的代表交通部代表就局長還是市長和局長好了市長跟局長好過來廖委員長\n\n00:27.611 --> 00:55.882\n部長招然後還有局長市長那剛剛很多人也都問了為什麼這個長榮罰不怕是不是罰太輕或等等的那其實剛剛也有委員問部長說修法的部分為什麼我們修的比較減少好你說有些國家呢注重於用法來處罰對不對就是用司法用司法來處罰嘛對不對那有一些國家注重公司治理對不對\n\n00:56.522 --> 01:17.102\n好那我想要看一下我們的這個第一頁因為本席有看到這個你看一下這個是長榮的一個空服員他說前陣子一趟紅眼航班我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下那因為服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序而被懲處\n\n01:19.244 --> 01:46.037\n好那他說很多人說規定就是規定可是我始終覺得要保障人而不是犧牲人讓需要的人休息不應該是一件被檢討的事好所以他這兩天他看到這個學妹出事的新聞他心裡很難過好那簡單來講本席看到這篇文章的時候他簡單來講這個空服員他就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息然後呢他被公司處罰了\n\n01:47.895 --> 02:13.249\n他被公司處罰了那我想要請問這是不是剛剛部長說法律你說有些人喜歡用司法處理有些人喜歡用公司治理處理這是不是公司治理出了問題那你們該做些什麼事情我剛剛講的跟這部分是兩件事情我剛剛在講的部分比較是職場霸凌的這個處理的機制我剛剛講的是職場霸凌的機制因為剛剛跟沒有其實我知道但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天考\n\n02:13.729 --> 02:27.259\n就是討論的議題有關嗎對但是我剛才回答陳英衛委員這部分是指職場霸凌的法治體制那這部分當然是另外一個部分對所以我想要請問一下那這樣子的話這樣的情況部長你怎麼看然後我們該怎麼處理\n\n02:29.180 --> 02:54.398\n跟文說們的確我們認為這個人其實我這個是他公開的臉書貼文啦但是他其實還有另外的懲處單啦很正名的一件事情這樣子的企業文化他意思是說在飛機上他讓該休息人休息結果他被懲處了那你說今天是不是就是一個單一座艙長的問題還是是整個企業文化出了問題所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答我的意思就是說那\n\n02:55.459 --> 03:18.253\n在司法上面如果現在不能處理的話請問在公司製理面你們有什麼想法呢部長或者是我們的民航局因為剛剛也有說罰不怕第一個罰不怕嘛那第二個剛剛也有委員問說那他是不是不怕你勞動部他比較怕交通部那好我們現在不去究竟說到底誰怕誰這公司製理是不是出了問題\n\n03:19.930 --> 03:37.061\n我們的確看到長榮航空長期的勞資關係的文化跟管理的文化其實是對於很多的基層員工把他們的需求可以表達出來是不太友善的\n\n03:37.461 --> 03:55.235\n那部長這該怎麼做因為剛剛說我罰不怕嘛你剛剛說那個不管請假啊每一次罰兩萬啊或等等一個是我們當然對於這個處罰的狀況我們會來跟地方的勞檢單位來討論是不是該加重是情節來加重的就應該加重這是一個\n\n03:56.089 --> 04:12.276\n那第二個當然我也表的我們也表達我們認為公司應該要誠懇的和基層員工和工會來針對他們的需求協商因為他這個事情其實跟今天這是有很大的關係喔你看他連一個一個\n\n04:13.616 --> 04:33.047\n其他的個案會讓大家有寒蟬消音嗎那另外其他座廠長或者是在裡面的學姐他敢讓自己的學妹或者其他不舒服的人讓他休息嗎不敢對不對所以導致今天的憾事那我就想要問了好部長你剛等於沒辦法回答嗎那我想問那這個交通部這裡你們在公司治理上你們可以要求些什麼\n\n04:33.960 --> 05:01.451\n我想跟委員報告有關這個在飛機上的執勤時間或者是相關的任務如果組員有表達他的不舒服那實際上在上面的事務長是可以來調整他的工作那如果說已經表達了那公司制度上事務長還不同意或者是什麼我們會就譬如說相關的個案我們會去調查那如果真的有違反民航法的相關規定的話那我們是可以來所以這個事情你們要啟動調查嘛對不對\n\n05:02.971 --> 05:31.969\n因為這個是對今天看看我們再來看看這個實際的個案是什麼樣的一個情形就是包含這次出事的我覺得他是一個看到的個案他背後一定是一個治理的問題還有包含剛所謂企業文化公司治理的問題好那當然裁罰部分剛剛部長有回答應該要是情況增加因為他看起來是完全是法不怕好這件事情我們今天先就是先到這我下一題我要問這個可以司長和局長們可以回座我要問部長\n\n05:33.018 --> 05:53.426\n部長去年發生北分署的霸凌案件也導致的這一次執安法的霸凌專章納進去那部長你上任之後也有信誓旦旦說要就過去救安基金濫用的情形進行整頓所以在幾次的立法院的諮詢中也有提到一些相關的改革計劃對不對\n\n05:54.767 --> 06:09.422\n好那我想請問一下我們正在做那我想請教一下對你們正在做了嗎對不對那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些再講一次好嗎我們其實是從他的支出面跟管理面那也包括資訊公開的部分在救安基金的這個\n\n06:11.324 --> 06:39.399\n管理的強化上面那也包括我們其實把一些其實不該放入到救援基金比方說一些禮品的採購我們是直接就把它停下來了那我們也增加了內機跟內控跟外機的機制好所以部長所以你有講幾個方面嘛然後第一個你說還有包含支出面嘛對不對好那我們就從支出面來講你可以看一下下一頁簡報當初你們的用途面說爭取合理編列公務預算對吧\n\n06:40.279 --> 07:02.178\n然後呢還有包含因此目前編列的就業安定基金的相關的行政管理費用正式編制職員人事費用國外旅費辦公處所修繕的行政費用跟這些無關的相關的費用你都要編入公務預算對嗎我們希望爭取是吧對不對我們希望爭取好那下一頁喔\n\n07:05.754 --> 07:25.244\n所以你可以看到你們現在依據你們的編列的部分包含著就業安定基金之用原則基金應該限於提升訓練人員職業職能參與國際技能賽事與交流辦理外國人來源國際業務等用途但是你們明年度的就安基金的計劃\n\n07:26.843 --> 07:46.409\n第一個還是有將出國旅費公務員的薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入好我們就用正式的原額來說好用人費剛剛你裡面有提到的正式編制人員的人事費用你要去改進檢討而且你也正在進行中對嗎可是你可以看到\n\n07:47.129 --> 08:00.585\n我們就業安定基金這兩個計畫外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡面的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的到明年度115年更是增加了很多從這個2900萬變成4300萬再變成6000\n\n08:07.752 --> 08:25.629\n將近6000萬這個是用人費用外國聘管的部分在促進國民就業計畫你的用人費用也是一樣從900萬成長到今年是1600多萬到明年是3000萬都是增加千萬以上的等級所以我本席想問的就是你的針對你的精進作為\n\n08:26.570 --> 08:48.370\n你看起來是空投支票你是沒有做到你的承諾包含這個人事費用我剛也給你看了你當初的報告是這樣寫所以你是不是你是不是背棄了你的承諾你是不是沒有做到你的承諾跟委員說絕對不是你想的背棄第一個我們其實是有跟行政院來爭取\n\n08:50.666 --> 09:20.180\n就像刚才讲的出国计划我们是有跟行政院讲我们先讲我们先救人事费就好你上面有说你的精进作为嘛对正式编制人员的人事费用人事费用的部分其实是我们在讲到说这个现在其实是以比例的分担那我们其实这是跟人种的讨论我们当然其实也希望能够争取更多能够回编到公务预算我们跟很简单因为你的精进作为简单来讲就是没做到嘛\n\n09:21.168 --> 09:42.502\n那而且你也不能夠說第一個你說主計總書不給你人不是我跟委員說明我們其實跟主總在今年上半年我們其實非常非常積極的跟主總討論很多次跟主總希望能夠爭取有一些過去其實用在救安基金的人事費是不是能夠回編到公務預算裡面但因為\n\n09:44.123 --> 09:58.151\n現在財務法通過以後整體中央的這個財政的預渡其實也受到了影響所以後來我們並沒有全部原本的期待都爭取回去部長很好下一頁好第一個\n\n09:58.951 --> 10:15.581\n你們現在勞動力發展所的人是有增加的好你有增加了但是你現在基金就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多然後你剛剛提到才化法我早就料到你會這樣講下一頁115年勞動部主管的預算比上114年增加了多少\n\n10:17.386 --> 10:41.017\n增加了43億多將近44億啊那部長你還要去扯財化法這第一件事第二件事情委員你要看裡面的工作項目啊因為工作項目也增加了啊你的精進作為已經承諾了所以你現在又再把它推到各種的理由上面那你是不是把你的精進作為視為無誤那你當初還需要花這麼多時間來報告你的就業安定計劃嗎跟委員說明第一個\n\n10:41.937 --> 10:53.885\n不是只單純看這個金額你要看我們的工作的項目有沒有增加這就是非常簡單的數字你要去扯好多細項你說有什麼東西但是你的勞動主管一定增加了43億多啊那我跟你說這兩件事情我只是要扣回去跟你說就業安定基金你根本沒有做到你的精進作為\n\n11:05.513 --> 11:25.904\n因為你的人事聘用增加了非常多委員你把你的這個投影片可以往前看那張我其實最前面那張部長我要跟你說你現在在這裡詭辯我們其實就是說我們會盡力的來爭取合理編列公務預算我們在上半年不斷的跟組總在做這部分的爭取\n\n11:27.160 --> 11:44.150\n那我們成功的爭取迴遍公務預算2.多億我們白紙黑字就寫爭取合理編列公務預算所以你現在是要說你想要改進就業基金安安定基金濫用的情況但是行政院不支持你嗎\n\n11:44.910 --> 12:09.131\n主總在這一次的財務上面他因為這個財務法的編列財政預渡有下降你承諾出來的東西就應該要做到而不是用各種理由去推脫你在下一頁我們就很簡單的看你上面就說你人事的正式編列預算應該要回到公務預算嘛那你現在公務預算也增加了結果你就業安定基金的這個人事費用也增加了\n\n12:09.724 --> 12:12.706\n那我們不知道我們在監督什麼那你當初的基金作為是什麼呢\n\n12:40.184 --> 13:08.092\n並不是拿去買禮物並不是拿去做其他跟救難基金無關的用途來沒關係再上一頁好我現在不想要跟你吵下去了因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡我要多邊緣邊緣啊因為用什麼可是你這裡就講得很簡單嘛所以我就是要告訴你你的經濟作為現在和你編出來的預算是不一樣的我要請你希望你依照當初的經濟作為去做檢討好以上質詢謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.886,"end":25.787,"text":"謝謝主席那請洪部長來請洪部長然後還有我們交通部的代表交通部代表就局長還是 市長和局長好了市長跟局長好 過來廖委員長"},{"start":27.611,"end":55.882,"text":"部長招然後還有局長市長那剛剛很多人也都問了為什麼這個長榮罰不怕是不是罰太輕或等等的那其實剛剛也有委員問部長說修法的部分為什麼我們修的比較減少好你說有些國家呢注重於用法來處罰對不對就是用司法用司法來處罰嘛對不對那有一些國家注重公司治理對不對"},{"start":56.522,"end":77.102,"text":"好 那我想要看一下我們的這個第一頁因為本席有看到這個你看一下 這個是長榮的一個空服員他說前陣子一趟紅眼航班我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下那因為服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序而被懲處"},{"start":79.244,"end":106.037,"text":"好那他說很多人說規定就是規定可是我始終覺得要保障人而不是犧牲人讓需要的人休息不應該是一件被檢討的事好所以他這兩天他看到這個學妹出事的新聞他心裡很難過好那簡單來講本席看到這篇文章的時候他簡單來講這個空服員他就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息然後呢他被公司處罰了"},{"start":107.895,"end":133.249,"text":"他被公司處罰了那我想要請問這是不是剛剛部長說法律你說有些人喜歡用司法處理有些人喜歡用公司治理處理這是不是公司治理出了問題那你們該做些什麼事情我剛剛講的跟這部分是兩件事情我剛剛在講的部分比較是職場霸凌的這個處理的機制我剛剛講的是職場霸凌的機制因為剛剛跟沒有其實我知道但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天考"},{"start":133.729,"end":147.259,"text":"就是討論的議題有關嗎對 但是我剛才回答陳英衛委員這部分是指職場霸凌的法治體制那這部分當然是另外一個部分對 所以我想要請問一下那這樣子的話這樣的情況部長你怎麼看然後我們該怎麼處理"},{"start":149.18,"end":174.398,"text":"跟文說們的確我們認為這個人其實我這個是他公開的臉書貼文啦但是他其實還有另外的懲處單啦很正名的一件事情這樣子的企業文化他意思是說在飛機上他讓該休息人休息結果他被懲處了那你說今天是不是就是一個單一座艙長的問題還是是整個企業文化出了問題所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答我的意思就是說那"},{"start":175.459,"end":198.253,"text":"在司法上面如果現在不能處理的話請問在公司製理面你們有什麼想法呢部長或者是我們的民航局因為剛剛也有說罰不怕第一個罰不怕嘛那第二個剛剛也有委員問說那他是不是不怕你勞動部他比較怕交通部那好我們現在不去究竟說到底誰怕誰這公司製理是不是出了問題"},{"start":199.93,"end":217.061,"text":"我們的確看到長榮航空長期的勞資關係的文化跟管理的文化其實是對於很多的基層員工把他們的需求可以表達出來是不太友善的"},{"start":217.461,"end":235.235,"text":"那部長這該怎麼做因為剛剛說我罰不怕嘛你剛剛說那個不管請假啊每一次罰兩萬啊或等等一個是我們當然對於這個處罰的狀況我們會來跟地方的勞檢單位來討論是不是該加重是情節來加重的就應該加重這是一個"},{"start":236.089,"end":252.276,"text":"那第二個當然我也表的我們也表達我們認為公司應該要誠懇的和基層員工和工會來針對他們的需求協商因為他這個事情其實跟今天這是有很大的關係喔你看他連一個一個"},{"start":253.616,"end":273.047,"text":"其他的個案會讓大家有寒蟬消音嗎那另外其他座廠長或者是在裡面的學姐他敢讓自己的學妹或者其他不舒服的人讓他休息嗎不敢對不對所以導致今天的憾事那我就想要問了好部長你剛等於沒辦法回答嗎那我想問那這個交通部這裡你們在公司治理上你們可以要求些什麼"},{"start":273.96,"end":301.451,"text":"我想跟委員報告有關這個在飛機上的執勤時間或者是相關的任務如果組員有表達他的不舒服那實際上在上面的事務長是可以來調整他的工作那如果說已經表達了那公司制度上事務長還不同意或者是什麼我們會就譬如說相關的個案我們會去調查那如果真的有違反民航法的相關規定的話那我們是可以來所以這個事情你們要啟動調查嘛對不對"},{"start":302.971,"end":331.969,"text":"因為這個是對今天看看我們再來看看這個實際的個案是什麼樣的一個情形就是包含這次出事的我覺得他是一個看到的個案他背後一定是一個治理的問題還有包含剛所謂企業文化公司治理的問題好那當然裁罰部分剛剛部長有回答應該要是情況增加因為他看起來是完全是法不怕好這件事情我們今天先就是先到這我下一題我要問這個可以司長和局長們可以回座我要問部長"},{"start":333.018,"end":353.426,"text":"部長去年發生北分署的霸凌案件也導致的這一次執安法的霸凌專章納進去那部長你上任之後也有信誓旦旦說要就過去救安基金濫用的情形進行整頓所以在幾次的立法院的諮詢中也有提到一些相關的改革計劃對不對"},{"start":354.767,"end":369.422,"text":"好那我想請問一下我們正在做那我想請教一下對你們正在做了嗎對不對那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些再講一次好嗎我們其實是從他的支出面跟管理面那也包括資訊公開的部分在救安基金的這個"},{"start":371.324,"end":399.399,"text":"管理的強化上面那也包括我們其實把一些其實不該放入到救援基金比方說一些禮品的採購我們是直接就把它停下來了那我們也增加了內機跟內控跟外機的機制好所以部長所以你有講幾個方面嘛然後第一個你說還有包含支出面嘛對不對好那我們就從支出面來講你可以看一下下一頁簡報當初你們的用途面說爭取合理編列公務預算對吧"},{"start":400.279,"end":422.178,"text":"然後呢還有包含因此目前編列的就業安定基金的相關的行政管理費用正式編制職員人事費用國外旅費辦公處所修繕的行政費用跟這些無關的相關的費用你都要編入公務預算 對嗎我們希望爭取是吧 對不對我們希望爭取好 那下一頁喔"},{"start":425.754,"end":445.244,"text":"所以你可以看到你們現在依據你們的編列的部分包含著就業安定基金之用原則基金應該限於提升訓練人員職業職能參與國際技能賽事與交流辦理外國人來源國際業務等用途但是你們明年度的就安基金的計劃"},{"start":446.843,"end":466.409,"text":"第一個還是有將出國旅費公務員的薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入好我們就用正式的原額來說好用人費剛剛你裡面有提到的正式編制人員的人事費用你要去改進檢討而且你也正在進行中對嗎可是你可以看到"},{"start":467.129,"end":480.585,"text":"我們就業安定基金這兩個計畫外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡面的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的到明年度115年更是增加了很多從這個2900萬變成4300萬再變成6000"},{"start":487.752,"end":505.629,"text":"將近6000萬這個是用人費用外國聘管的部分在促進國民就業計畫你的用人費用也是一樣從900萬成長到今年是1600多萬到明年是3000萬都是增加千萬以上的等級所以我本席想問的就是你的針對你的精進作為"},{"start":506.57,"end":528.37,"text":"你看起來是空投支票你是沒有做到你的承諾包含這個人事費用我剛也給你看了你當初的報告是這樣寫所以你是不是你是不是背棄了你的承諾你是不是沒有做到你的承諾跟委員說絕對不是你想的背棄第一個我們其實是有跟行政院來爭取"},{"start":530.666,"end":560.18,"text":"就像刚才讲的出国计划我们是有跟行政院讲我们先讲我们先救人事费就好你上面有说你的精进作为嘛对正式编制人员的人事费用人事费用的部分其实是我们在讲到说这个现在其实是以比例的分担那我们其实这是跟人种的讨论我们当然其实也希望能够争取更多能够回编到公务预算我们跟很简单因为你的精进作为简单来讲就是没做到嘛"},{"start":561.168,"end":582.502,"text":"那而且你也不能夠說第一個你說主計總書不給你人不是我跟委員說明我們其實跟主總在今年上半年我們其實非常非常積極的跟主總討論很多次跟主總希望能夠爭取有一些過去其實用在救安基金的人事費是不是能夠回編到公務預算裡面但因為"},{"start":584.123,"end":598.151,"text":"現在財務法通過以後整體中央的這個財政的預渡其實也受到了影響所以後來我們並沒有全部原本的期待都爭取回去部長很好 下一頁好 第一個"},{"start":598.951,"end":615.581,"text":"你們現在勞動力發展所的人是有增加的好你有增加了但是你現在基金就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多然後你剛剛提到才化法我早就料到你會這樣講下一頁115年勞動部主管的預算比上114年增加了多少"},{"start":617.386,"end":641.017,"text":"增加了43億多將近44億啊那部長你還要去扯財化法這第一件事第二件事情 委員你要看裡面的工作項目啊因為工作項目也增加了啊你的精進作為已經承諾了所以你現在又再把它推到各種的理由上面那你是不是把你的精進作為視為無誤那你當初還需要花這麼多時間來報告你的就業安定計劃嗎跟委員說明 第一個"},{"start":641.937,"end":653.885,"text":"不是只單純看這個金額 你要看我們的工作的項目有沒有增加這就是非常簡單的數字 你要去扯好多細項 你說有什麼東西但是你的勞動主管一定增加了43億多啊那我跟你說 這兩件事情 我只是要扣回去跟你說就業安定基金 你根本沒有做到你的精進作為"},{"start":665.513,"end":685.904,"text":"因為你的人事聘用增加了非常多委員你把你的這個投影片可以往前看那張我其實最前面那張部長我要跟你說你現在在這裡詭辯我們其實就是說我們會盡力的來爭取合理編列公務預算我們在上半年不斷的跟組總在做這部分的爭取"},{"start":687.16,"end":704.15,"text":"那我們成功的爭取迴遍公務預算2.多億我們白紙黑字就寫爭取合理編列公務預算所以你現在是要說你想要改進就業基金安安定基金濫用的情況但是行政院不支持你嗎"},{"start":704.91,"end":729.131,"text":"主總在這一次的財務上面 他因為這個財務法的編列 財政預渡有下降你承諾出來的東西就應該要做到 而不是用各種理由去推脫你在下一頁 我們就很簡單的看你上面就說你人事的正式編列預算應該要回到公務預算嘛那你現在公務預算也增加了 結果你就業安定基金的這個人事費用也增加了"},{"start":729.724,"end":732.706,"text":"那我們不知道我們在監督什麼那你當初的基金作為是什麼呢"},{"start":760.184,"end":788.092,"text":"並不是拿去買禮物並不是拿去做其他跟救難基金無關的用途來沒關係再上一頁好我現在不想要跟你吵下去了因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡我要多邊緣邊緣啊因為用什麼可是你這裡就講得很簡單嘛所以我就是要告訴你你的經濟作為現在和你編出來的預算是不一樣的我要請你希望你依照當初的經濟作為去做檢討好以上質詢謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時56分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["廖委員偉翔：還有交通部代表。"],["主席：交通部代表就是局長，還是？"],["廖委員偉翔：司長跟局長好了。"],["主席：司長跟局長？好，都來。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長早，還有局長、司長。剛剛很多人都問了，為什麼長榮罰不怕？是不是罰太輕等等？剛剛也有委員問部長修法的部分，為什麼我們修得比較減少？有些國家注重用法來處罰，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：就是用司法。"],["廖委員偉翔：用司法來處罰嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，用法院、司法系統。"],["廖委員偉翔：那有一些國家注重公司治理，對不對？那看看第1頁。本席看到一則，這是一個長榮空服員，他說，前陣子，一趟紅眼航班，我讓身體不適和疲憊不堪的學妹去休息一下，因為「服勤期間未遵守標準作業程序」而被懲處。他說，很多人說「規定就是規定」，可是他始終覺得，要保障人，而不是犧牲人，讓「需要的人休息」不應該是一件被檢討的事。所以這兩天他看到學妹猝逝的新聞，心裡很難過。本席看到這篇文章的時候，簡單來講，這個空服員就是讓他的學妹在身體不適的時候去休息，結果他被公司處罰了。那我想請問，剛剛部長說有些人喜歡用司法處理、有些人喜歡用公司治理處理，那麼這是不是公司治理出了問題？你們該做些什麼事情？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我剛剛講的跟這部份是兩件事情，我剛剛講的屬於職場霸凌的處理機制。我剛才講職場霸凌的機制，因為剛剛跟陳菁徽委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：我知道，但是你剛剛講的這兩點其實也跟今天討論的議題有關嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，但是我剛剛回答陳菁徽委員這個部分是指職場霸凌的法制體制，而這起案件當然是另外一個部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以我想要請問一下，對於這樣的情況，部長怎麼看、然後該怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，的確，我們認為……"],["廖委員偉翔：其實這是他的公開臉書貼文，另外他還有一份懲處單啦！證明了一件事情，這樣的企業文化，他的意思是說，在飛機上他讓該休息的人休息，結果他被懲處了，你說這是否就是單一座艙長的問題？還是整個企業文化出了問題？所以我要扣回到你剛剛的回答。我的意思就是如果在司法上現在不能處理的話，請問在公司治理面你們有什麼想法，部長或民航局？因為剛剛也有說：第一是罰不怕。第二，剛剛也有委員問那他是不是不怕勞動部，比較怕交通部？好，我們現在不深究到底誰怕誰，這樣的公司治理是不是出了問題？"],["洪部長申翰：我們的確看到以長榮航空長期的勞資關係文化與管理文化，對於很多基層員工把他們的需求表達出來其實是不太友善的。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，那該怎麼做？因為剛剛說了罰不怕嘛！你剛剛說了，不管是請假，每次罰2萬元等等。"],["洪部長申翰：第一，對於處罰的狀況，我們會跟地方勞檢單位討論是不是該加重，視情節該加重的就應該加重，這是一點。第二，當然我們也表達了，我們認為公司應該誠懇地和基層員工、工會針對他們的需求協商。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這件事情其實跟今天這件事情有很大的關係，你看連一起其他個案也會讓大家有寒蟬效應嘛！其他座艙長或者裡面的學姊敢讓自己的學妹或其他不舒服的人休息嗎？不敢，對不對？所以導致今天的憾事。部長，你剛剛等於沒辦法回答，那我想問交通部，你們在公司治理上可以要求些什麼？"],["何局長淑萍：跟委員報告，在飛機上執勤時間或執行相關任務時，如果組員表達不舒服，實際上在上面的事務長可以調整其工作。如果已經表達了，在公司制度上，事務長還不同意或者有什麼反應，我們會就相關個案調查，如果真的違反民航法相關規定，我們可以依民航法議處。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以針對這件事情，你們一定要啟動調查，對不對？"],["何局長淑萍：對，今天看到了，我們會再看看實際個案是什麼樣的情形。"],["廖委員偉翔：包含這起猝逝案件。我覺得既然看到了這樣的個案，背後一定有治理的問題，也包含剛剛所謂企業文化、公司治理的問題。當然，在裁罰部分，剛剛部長回答應該視情況增加，因為看起來是完全罰不怕嘛！好，這些事情今天先談到這，司長和局長可以回座。","下一題我要問部長。去年發生北分署的霸凌案件，導致這次職安法將霸凌專章納進去。部長，你上任之後也信誓旦旦，要針對過去就安基金濫用的情形進行整頓，所以在幾次立法院質詢中，你也提到一些相關改革計畫，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：不是只提到，我們正在做。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你們正在做了，對不對？那我想請教一下你們的精進作為有哪些？再講一次，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們其實是從支出面跟管理面探討，也包括資訊公開的部分以及就安基金管理的強化。我們其實也把一些不該放入就安基金的，比方禮品採購，直接停下來了。我們也增加了內控及外稽機制。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長講了幾個方面，第一個、你說包含支出面，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我們就從支出面來講。當初你們就用途面是說爭取合理編列公務預算，對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：因此，目前編列的就業安定基金相關行政管理費用、正式編制職員人事費用、國外旅費、辦公處所修繕的行政費用，跟這些無關的費用都要編入公務預算，對嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望爭取。"],["廖委員偉翔：是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望爭取。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以你可以看到，現在你們編列的部分，包含就業安定基金支用原則，基金應該限於提升訓練人員專業職能、參與國際技能賽事與交流、辦理外國人來源國業務聯繫等用途，但是以你們明年度的就安基金計畫，第一，還是將出國旅費、公務員薪資還有一部分非關就業安定用途的行政費用納入。好，我們就用正式員額來說好了，關於用人費，剛剛你提到對於正式編制人員的人事費用要改進、檢討，而且也正在進行中，對嗎？可是你可以看到就業安定基金這兩個計畫：外國人聘僱管理及許可計畫裡的用人費用從前年度到上一年度都是暴增的，到明年度、115年更增加了很多，從2,900萬元變成4,300萬元，再變成6,000萬元，這是外國聘管部分的用人費用。在促進國民就業計畫中，用人費用也一樣，從900萬元成長到今年的一千六百多萬，明年是3,000萬元，都是增加千萬以上的等級。本席想問的就是你的精進作為看起來是空頭支票、你沒有做到你的承諾，包含人事費用，我剛剛也給你看了，你當初的報告是這樣寫。所以你是不是背棄了你的承諾？你是不是沒有做到你的承諾？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，絕對不是你講的背棄。第一，我們其實有向行政院爭取，就像剛才講的出國計畫，我們有向行政院爭取。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們先就人事費討論就好。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["廖委員偉翔：上面有說你的精進作為嘛！包括正式編制人員的人事費用。"],["洪部長申翰：人事費用的部分，我們現在是依比例分擔。其實這經過跟人總的討論，我們當然希望能夠爭取更多回編到公務預算。"],["廖委員偉翔：很簡單啦！你的精進作為簡單來講就是沒做到嘛！而且你也不能說第一個原因是主計總處不給你人，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我跟委員說明。我們在今年上半年其實非常積極地跟主總討論很多次，希望能夠爭取將一些過去用在就安基金的人事費回編到公務預算裡面。但是現在因為財劃法通過以後，整體中央財政的裕度其實也受到影響，所以後來我們並沒有如原本的期待爭取到全部編回去，可是我們爭取了一部分。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，很好。第一，現在勞動力發展署的人是有增加的，好，你增加了，但是現在就業安定基金的使用也增加了這麼多。然後你剛剛提到財劃法，我早就料到你會這樣講。115年勞動部主管預算比上114年增加了多少？增加了四十三億多、將近四十四億啊！部長還要扯財劃法？這是第一件事。第二件事情……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你要看裡面的工作項目啊！因為工作項目也增加了啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：第二件事情，你的精進作為已經承諾了，現在卻又推到各種理由上，是不是把你的精進作為視若無物？那你當初還需要花這麼多時間報告你的就業安定計畫嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明。第一，不該單純只看這個金額，也要看我們的工作項目有沒有增加。"],["廖委員偉翔：很簡單，這就是非常簡單的數字，雖然你要扯好多、說細項有什麼東西，但你的勞動主管預算已經增加了四十三億多啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不是這樣的，這裡面有近三十億是因為生育給付增加。"],["廖委員偉翔：我跟你說，針對這整件事情，我只是要扣回去跟你說，針對就業安定基金，你根本沒有做到你說的精進作為！因為人事聘用增加了非常多。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你可以把投影片往前，看最前面那一張。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我要跟你說，現在你在這裡詭辯也沒有用啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有，我其實就是說我們會盡力爭取合理編列公務預算，而且我們在上半年不斷地向主總就這部分爭取，也成功爭取到回編公務預算二點多億。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我就問你是不是曾白紙黑字寫下你的精進作為？"],["洪部長申翰：我們白紙黑字就是寫爭取合理編列公務預算。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你現在是要說你想改進就業安定基金濫用的情況，但是行政院不支持你嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：主總這次在財務上因為財劃法的編列爭議，所以財政裕度下降。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我要跟你說啦！你承諾出來的東西就應該做到，而不是用各種理由推託。我們就很簡單地看，上面就說你認為正式人事預算編列應該回到公務預算嘛！現在公務預算增加了，結果就業安定基金的人事費用也增加了，那我不知道我們在監督什麼啊！你當初的精進作為是什麼呢？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，在行政上，並不是就安基金用到人事就是不對的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我跟你講，我都尊重啊！但是……"],["洪部長申翰：因為這裡面有很多人事在執行就安基金的任務。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你的精進作為不見了。"],["洪部長申翰：我們曾跟主總討論，如果人事是執行就安基金任務的話，審計、主總都跟我們說其實可以合理地編在就安基金裡面，因為它是用來執行就安基金的任務，並不是拿去買禮物、並不是拿去用在其他跟就安基金無關的用途。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我現在不想再跟你吵下去，因為你現在可以用各種理由說這裡要多編員、因為要用在什麼，但你在這裡就講得很簡單嘛！我就是要告訴你，你的精進作為和你現在編出來的預算是不一樣的，我要請你、希望你依照當初承諾的精進作為去檢討。以上質詢，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖召委。部長，請回。","接下來請黃秀芳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":204,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-26-4","speakers":["劉建國","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","翁曉玲","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林月琴","蘇清泉","廖偉翔","黃秀芳","涂權吉","林淑芬","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","楊曜","張雅琳","洪孟楷","范雲","盧縣一","陳瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148502_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部、交通部、衛生福利部就「長榮空勤人員因病延誤就醫，應立即檢討航空業職場\n健康保障飛行安全」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)行政院函請審議「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 二) 委員廖先翔等18 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員牛煦庭等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n李昆澤等26人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員魯明\n哲等16人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十條條文修正草案」案、(六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)委員林淑芬等19人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四十三條條文\n修正草案」案、(八)委員楊曜等22人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員\n李昆澤等27人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)委員黃秀芳等21人擬具「職業\n安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第三十五\n條、第三十九條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員范雲等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法\n部分條文修正草案」案、 ( 十三) 委員劉建國等17 人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(十四)委員吳琪銘等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法第六條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員沈發\n惠等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等19人擬具「職業安\n全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等25人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(十八)委員郭國文等17人擬具「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員\n王鴻薇等19 人擬具「職業安全衛生法第四條條文修正草案」案、 ( 二十) 委員郭昱晴等17 人擬具\n「職業安全衛生法部分條文修正草案」案、(二十一)委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「職業安全衛生法部\n分條文修正草案」案【綜合詢答】","agenda_id":"1148502_00001"}}}