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0.905}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 1016.508, \"end\": 1016.729, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 1016.729, \"end\": 1017.03, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1017.03, \"end\": 1017.37, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 1017.37, \"end\": 1017.511, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 1017.511, \"end\": 1017.531, \"score\": 0.362}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,209 --> 00:00:19,430\n請部長國教署署長記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長以上好請部長跟相關的次長跟署長司長就座謝謝沒關係就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下謝謝委員好\n\n2\n00:00:22,249 --> 00:00:47,608\n首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论\n\n3\n00:00:48,408 --> 00:01:07,730\n同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦\n\n4\n00:01:08,671 --> 00:01:23,355\n我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然\n\n5\n00:01:30,458 --> 00:01:59,468\n各種計畫型怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼\n\n6\n00:02:01,164 --> 00:02:23,929\n四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好\n\n7\n00:02:24,509 --> 00:02:50,005\n接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來\n\n8\n00:02:52,927 --> 00:03:16,057\n这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚\n\n9\n00:03:17,108 --> 00:03:44,897\n譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分\n\n10\n00:03:45,777 --> 00:04:06,053\n地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分\n\n11\n00:04:07,454 --> 00:04:19,360\n这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了\n\n12\n00:04:20,345 --> 00:04:46,596\n什麼叫做不需要叫做不需要那叫做什麼它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加那請教一下署長地方裁員你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我怎麼增加來你告訴我對像台北市增加400多億桃園市增加295億\n\n13\n00:04:47,836 --> 00:05:08,367\n好我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗\n\n14\n00:05:09,207 --> 00:05:27,803\n要合作對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來部長我請教你一下\n\n15\n00:05:31,256 --> 00:06:00,135\n刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了\n\n16\n00:06:00,895 --> 00:06:27,723\n欸部長啊你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過想不想換一張五萬塊的不用不用為什麼\n\n17\n00:06:28,325 --> 00:06:44,230\n因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊\n\n18\n00:06:47,130 --> 00:07:15,910\n買個椅子什麼一張五萬塊喝瓶水什麼水不能喝一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子去支持我們的老師但你今天啊讓他三你就三讓他減你就減這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡這本性不能接受啊好不好\n\n19\n00:07:16,630 --> 00:07:41,468\n然後再來呢我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊部長部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的適時的堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員\n\n20\n00:07:46,431 --> 00:08:05,801\n不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎國教署是的那包含有新增的部分我們往下看\n\n21\n00:08:14,483 --> 00:08:34,640\n刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么\n\n22\n00:08:36,616 --> 00:08:52,419\n為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有\n\n23\n00:08:52,739 --> 00:09:19,899\n那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看\n\n24\n00:09:20,459 --> 00:09:39,207\n我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助\n\n25\n00:09:39,907 --> 00:10:02,481\n大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔我們變成計劃型補助其中啊這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型都改成要申請那我請教一下部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼\n\n26\n00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:28,611\n各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校\n\n27\n00:10:29,011 --> 00:10:54,375\n跟縣市要資料好減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎\n\n28\n00:10:56,918 --> 00:11:20,309\n一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛對不對你絕對不會嘛\n\n29\n00:11:23,044 --> 00:11:30,078\n所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫\n\n30\n00:11:34,502 --> 00:11:53,798\n這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好給我一個字就好基本上我覺得我肯定他的價值\n\n31\n00:12:02,307 --> 00:12:28,860\n所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零\n\n32\n00:12:30,054 --> 00:12:36,851\n成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗\n\n33\n00:12:40,479 --> 00:13:05,959\n我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专\n\n34\n00:13:06,659 --> 00:13:28,035\n的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得\n\n35\n00:13:29,296 --> 00:13:54,586\n非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗\n\n36\n00:13:57,372 --> 00:14:10,349\n因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對這個是不可以的那如果不可以那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助\n\n37\n00:14:12,332 --> 00:14:41,531\n我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想\n\n38\n00:14:42,472 --> 00:15:03,265\n叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好\n\n39\n00:15:04,245 --> 00:15:15,872\n我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事\n\n40\n00:15:19,825 --> 00:15:41,754\n根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了\n\n41\n00:15:42,774 --> 00:16:01,903\n然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼\n\n42\n00:16:04,184 --> 00:16:25,644\n我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加02加31加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔\n\n43\n00:16:26,044 --> 00:16:53,813\n所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝\n\n44\n00:16:56,047 --> 00:16:57,531\n謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n209\t19430\t請部長 國教署署長 記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長 以上好 請部長跟相關的次長跟署長 司長就座 謝謝沒關係 就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下 謝謝委員好\n22249\t47608\t首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论\n48408\t67730\t同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦\n68671\t83355\t我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然\n90458\t119468\t各種計畫型 怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸 因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則 我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛 從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼\n121164\t143929\t四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好\n144509\t170005\t接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來\n172927\t196057\t这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚\n197108\t224897\t譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個 像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分\n225777\t246053\t地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好 署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分\n247454\t259360\t这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了\n260345\t286596\t什麼叫做不需要 叫做不需要那叫做什麼 它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加 那請教一下署長地方裁員 你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員 地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市 你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我 怎麼增加 來你告訴我對 像台北市增加400多億 桃園市增加295億\n287836\t308367\t好 我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗\n309207\t327803\t要合作 對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀 是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來 部長我請教你一下\n331256\t360135\t刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了\n360895\t387723\t欸 部長啊 你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來 部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部 你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有 我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過 想不想換一張五萬塊的不用 不用 為什麼\n388325\t404230\t因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊\n407130\t435910\t買個椅子 什麼一張五萬塊 喝瓶水什麼水不能喝 一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是 教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子 去支持我們的老師但你今天啊 讓他三你就三 讓他減你就減 這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說 要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡 這本性不能接受啊 好不好\n436630\t461468\t然後再來呢 我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢 你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊 部長 部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的 適時的 堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說 那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員\n466431\t485801\t不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎 國教署是的 那包含有新增的部分我們往下看\n494483\t514640\t刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么\n516616\t532419\t為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有\n532739\t559899\t那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看\n560459\t579207\t我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助\n579907\t602481\t大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔 我們變成計劃型補助其中啊 這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說 未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型 都改成要申請那我請教一下 部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼\n610179\t628611\t各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校\n629011\t654375\t跟縣市要資料好 減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎\n656918\t680309\t一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行 謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛 對不對你絕對不會嘛\n683044\t690078\t所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下 好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫\n694502\t713798\t這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好 給我一個字就好基本上我覺得 我肯定他的價值\n722307\t748860\t所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零\n750054\t756851\t成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗\n760479\t785959\t我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专\n786659\t808035\t的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得\n809296\t834586\t非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗\n837372\t850349\t因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對 這個是不可以的那如果不可以 那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助\n852332\t881531\t我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想\n882472\t903265\t叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好\n904245\t915872\t我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事\n919825\t941754\t根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了\n942774\t961903\t然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼\n964184\t985644\t我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下 去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加0 2加3 1加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔\n986044\t1013813\t所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝\n1016047\t1017531\t謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道 謝謝\n","txt":"請部長 國教署署長 記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長 以上好 請部長跟相關的次長跟署長 司長就座 謝謝沒關係 就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下 謝謝委員好\n首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论\n同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦\n我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然\n各種計畫型 怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸 因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則 我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛 從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼\n四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好\n接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來\n这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚\n譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個 像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分\n地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好 署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分\n这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了\n什麼叫做不需要 叫做不需要那叫做什麼 它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加 那請教一下署長地方裁員 你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員 地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市 你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我 怎麼增加 來你告訴我對 像台北市增加400多億 桃園市增加295億\n好 我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗\n要合作 對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀 是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來 部長我請教你一下\n刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了\n欸 部長啊 你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來 部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部 你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有 我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過 想不想換一張五萬塊的不用 不用 為什麼\n因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊\n買個椅子 什麼一張五萬塊 喝瓶水什麼水不能喝 一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是 教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子 去支持我們的老師但你今天啊 讓他三你就三 讓他減你就減 這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說 要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡 這本性不能接受啊 好不好\n然後再來呢 我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢 你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊 部長 部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的 適時的 堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說 那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員\n不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎 國教署是的 那包含有新增的部分我們往下看\n刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么\n為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有\n那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看\n我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助\n大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔 我們變成計劃型補助其中啊 這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說 未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型 都改成要申請那我請教一下 部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼\n各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校\n跟縣市要資料好 減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎\n一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行 謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛 對不對你絕對不會嘛\n所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下 好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫\n這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好 給我一個字就好基本上我覺得 我肯定他的價值\n所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零\n成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗\n我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专\n的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得\n非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗\n因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對 這個是不可以的那如果不可以 那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助\n我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想\n叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好\n我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事\n根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了\n然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼\n我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下 去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加0 2加3 1加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔\n所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝\n謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.209 --> 00:19.430\n請部長國教署署長記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長以上好請部長跟相關的次長跟署長司長就座謝謝沒關係就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下謝謝委員好\n\n00:22.249 --> 00:47.608\n首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论\n\n00:48.408 --> 01:07.730\n同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦\n\n01:08.671 --> 01:23.355\n我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然\n\n01:30.458 --> 01:59.468\n各種計畫型怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼\n\n02:01.164 --> 02:23.929\n四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好\n\n02:24.509 --> 02:50.005\n接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來\n\n02:52.927 --> 03:16.057\n这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚\n\n03:17.108 --> 03:44.897\n譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分\n\n03:45.777 --> 04:06.053\n地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分\n\n04:07.454 --> 04:19.360\n这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了\n\n04:20.345 --> 04:46.596\n什麼叫做不需要叫做不需要那叫做什麼它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加那請教一下署長地方裁員你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我怎麼增加來你告訴我對像台北市增加400多億桃園市增加295億\n\n04:47.836 --> 05:08.367\n好我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗\n\n05:09.207 --> 05:27.803\n要合作對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來部長我請教你一下\n\n05:31.256 --> 06:00.135\n刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了\n\n06:00.895 --> 06:27.723\n欸部長啊你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過想不想換一張五萬塊的不用不用為什麼\n\n06:28.325 --> 06:44.230\n因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊\n\n06:47.130 --> 07:15.910\n買個椅子什麼一張五萬塊喝瓶水什麼水不能喝一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子去支持我們的老師但你今天啊讓他三你就三讓他減你就減這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡這本性不能接受啊好不好\n\n07:16.630 --> 07:41.468\n然後再來呢我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊部長部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的適時的堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員\n\n07:46.431 --> 08:05.801\n不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎國教署是的那包含有新增的部分我們往下看\n\n08:14.483 --> 08:34.640\n刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么\n\n08:36.616 --> 08:52.419\n為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有\n\n08:52.739 --> 09:19.899\n那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看\n\n09:20.459 --> 09:39.207\n我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助\n\n09:39.907 --> 10:02.481\n大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔我們變成計劃型補助其中啊這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型都改成要申請那我請教一下部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼\n\n10:10.179 --> 10:28.611\n各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校\n\n10:29.011 --> 10:54.375\n跟縣市要資料好減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎\n\n10:56.918 --> 11:20.309\n一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛對不對你絕對不會嘛\n\n11:23.044 --> 11:30.078\n所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫\n\n11:34.502 --> 11:53.798\n這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好給我一個字就好基本上我覺得我肯定他的價值\n\n12:02.307 --> 12:28.860\n所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零\n\n12:30.054 --> 12:36.851\n成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗\n\n12:40.479 --> 13:05.959\n我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专\n\n13:06.659 --> 13:28.035\n的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得\n\n13:29.296 --> 13:54.586\n非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗\n\n13:57.372 --> 14:10.349\n因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對這個是不可以的那如果不可以那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助\n\n14:12.332 --> 14:41.531\n我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想\n\n14:42.472 --> 15:03.265\n叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好\n\n15:04.245 --> 15:15.872\n我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事\n\n15:19.825 --> 15:41.754\n根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了\n\n15:42.774 --> 16:01.903\n然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼\n\n16:04.184 --> 16:25.644\n我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加02加31加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔\n\n16:26.044 --> 16:53.813\n所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝\n\n16:56.047 --> 16:57.531\n謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.209,"end":19.43,"text":"請部長 國教署署長 記者司司長還有我們哪一位去承接了葉秉成次長的業務的次長 以上好 請部長跟相關的次長跟署長 司長就座 謝謝沒關係 就大家也坐了很久嘛上來辛苦站一下 謝謝委員好"},{"start":22.249,"end":47.608,"text":"首先我想先谢谢赵伟赵伟今天给予大家非常充分的时间来讨论我们大家最关心的各项教育议题其实我今天也准备了很多的资料但第一题我可能要先来呼应一下我们刚刚罗廷伟委员所提到的我们在过去升格以后我们的国立高中改立这件事情其实在地方上那时候有很多的讨论"},{"start":48.408,"end":67.73,"text":"同意的意见不同意的意见都非常的多那刚才我当然特别提醒罗廷伟委员在台中市那时候在圣歌改历的时候这个我们署长是当时教育局的局长那当时好像也颇支持的这样子但我觉得支持是一回事我们走到现在为止我觉得刚才罗廷伟委员讲得很好也就是说现在哦"},{"start":68.671,"end":83.355,"text":"我們在地方上各項的補助都減少那如果說今天國立高中變市立高中那我們還要去負擔市立高中因為得不到中央的關愛那真的不如把孩子送回來大家庭好了那部長怎麼看你會繼續愛他們嗎我講我們當然"},{"start":90.458,"end":119.468,"text":"各種計畫型 怎麼樣去協助地方這個勢力高中子的一個發展這當然教育部責無旁貸責無旁貸 因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛但別忘了那是自己的孩子否則 我請教一下台南現在那個學校國立有改為勢力了嗎有還是沒有目前還是在目前沒有嘛 從以前到現在他都不願意嘛不願意的原因是什麼"},{"start":121.164,"end":143.929,"text":"四个字财政负担就这样子对不对那所以呢台南他到现在都不愿意都还在考量那如果说其他升格的各个直辖市刚刚其实署长都漏掉了讲我们桃园了那我觉得我们大家现在就是尽量给我们的这些过去的国立高中现在市立高中要给他很多的支持但我希望那个大家长您这个部长别忘了还有他们好"},{"start":144.509,"end":170.005,"text":"接下來我們來討論這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137億我們看到115年教育部主管的預算2659億如果再加上我們這個一般性補助款813億總共是3472億比較去年少了79億其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億來"},{"start":172.927,"end":196.057,"text":"这个署长你的预算高达了137.5亿的减链原因是什么有三个第一个是2到6岁第二个是有些已经完工的像当时的青浦地区竹北地区那个8亿另外有一些是因为在财政的这个负担上有一些调节第三个部分再说清楚"},{"start":197.108,"end":224.897,"text":"譬如說在1.65的這個原額上那麼在103年上這個政策當時已經過了11年已經達成了那這個可能可以減編第二個 像輔導人這個當時的教師數在正諸於11年後的教師數它並且已經提高了之後呢已經不太需要那筆錢那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的時間已經走了11年第二個是輔導人力的部分"},{"start":225.777,"end":246.053,"text":"地方已经增加了4165亿那相关的这个资源做一点调节以上三点做补充好 署长本席比较能接受的是你说如果我们过去有编列是因为现在工程完工了都竣工了那我们当然就不需要再编那就会看到简列的数字在这上面但您刚刚所说的我们看到自己教育部简报在第六页的部分"},{"start":247.454,"end":259.36,"text":"这也是刚才书长提到的什么补助国小教育运河编制啊每班1.65我们已经完成了不需要了然后是什么辅导人力我们不需要了什么这些不需要到底是谁告诉你已经不需要了"},{"start":260.345,"end":286.596,"text":"什麼叫做不需要 叫做不需要那叫做什麼 它是在那個時間已經完成了之後它是因為地方裁員也增加了所以地方裁員增加 那請教一下署長地方裁員 你怎麼知道地方裁員增加了委員 地方裁員增加是4160億以相關的縣市 你說地方裁員增加在哪裡你告訴我 怎麼增加 來你告訴我對 像台北市增加400多億 桃園市增加295億"},{"start":287.836,"end":308.367,"text":"好 我們增加這290幾億我就以本席的桃園市來講難道全部增加的就是指定在教育運算上嗎那我必須要講說今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋蛋生雞來講回來我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總諮詢一樣我們跟中央中央政府地方政府不要對抗"},{"start":309.207,"end":327.803,"text":"要合作 對不對一個財化法它有基本的利益在就像之前賴靜澤在當這個市長的時候他也是說財化法要重新修法呀 是不是那重新修法為什麼難道就是因為我們增加了所以今天要砍什麼全部拿來砍教育的預算這樣有對嗎來 部長我請教你一下"},{"start":331.256,"end":360.135,"text":"刚才以上我们讲到的我们刚才以上讲到的不管是我们的高中以下学校的用电刚刚辅导人力什么的这些部长你应该知道这些每一个都是很重要对不对好那你今天要讲说你们这个才化法每个县市都有增加预算增加的预算我们地方政府也会涉算涉算了以后就会想说我还要怎么样帮桃园市做更多重大建设什么地方还需要钱结果呢你反而把教育的预算都给空掉了"},{"start":360.895,"end":387.723,"text":"欸 部長啊 你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算啊今天是行政院要你撿就撿嘛來 部長我請教你一個問題你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢對不起我這是立法院的一個我說你在教育部 你的座椅一張多少錢我沒有 我進來就是原用舊的我沒有買過沒有買過 想不想換一張五萬塊的不用 不用 為什麼"},{"start":388.325,"end":404.23,"text":"因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐我主要是來做事情跟委員一樣希望一起為台灣的教育打拚我不是來來做不是來享受的嘛很棒我就欣賞你這一些話要告訴國防部啊"},{"start":407.13,"end":435.91,"text":"買個椅子 什麼一張五萬塊 喝瓶水什麼水不能喝 一瓶水一百二當然他有一些他的說法在但我今天要講的是 教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題教育的預算我們要投入大量去栽培我們的孩子 去支持我們的老師但你今天啊 讓他三你就三 讓他減你就減 這樣怎麼會對啊你要支持的去捍衛你自己的預算啊不是今天行政院告訴你說 要塞哪裡你就同意塞哪裡 這本性不能接受啊 好不好"},{"start":436.63,"end":461.468,"text":"然後再來呢 我想我跟委員一樣我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作你要捍衛預算啦如果呢 你都不知道要去捍衛預算喔這樣到六歲原來編688億我們中央還是一樣部長啊 部長 部長如果我們這樣提醒你說你要適當的 適時的 堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算不是只有到委員會來才來跟我們這邊這樣說 那樣說你看我們所有委員會的委員"},{"start":466.431,"end":485.801,"text":"不分這個黨派我們都很支持你的預算對不對但是你今天少了這個部分你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來了再來我們來看到我們這些計畫現在改成地方負擔加總起來總共少的是149.31億對嗎 國教署是的 那包含有新增的部分我們往下看"},{"start":494.483,"end":514.64,"text":"刚才的资料是国教署这边来教育部这边来这边也是你这边写上来这个我们简列是146.28亿为什么一样都是你送上来的资料为什么一样都是你送上来的资料却有149.3亿跟146.28亿的差别那这个相差3亿多这个数字为什么"},{"start":516.616,"end":532.419,"text":"為什麼跟委員報告就是現在委員投影片放的這13他是只有對地方政府的補助款我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊前面上一張的話是整個國教署的預算是整個國教署補助和非補助都有"},{"start":532.739,"end":559.899,"text":"那我們看到第一個我覺得這個數字上面我覺得也不夠明確第二個呢所以你所有的簡列你看通通都是簡列我們地方嘛全部都是簡列地方嘛我覺得這是不對的你今天呢我們的孩子我們的老師你不要再去分這些什麼中央地方你能夠做的你就應該都要做所以我還是回去到那句老話其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的好接下來呢我就要再問到了你看"},{"start":560.459,"end":579.207,"text":"我们现在我不知道这个部长因为昨天我在这个总咨询的时候也有提到这个财务法我们现在大概有1700多亿吧如果这个数字我没有记错的话大概有1000多亿那这个预算其实就是改成计划型的一个补助"},{"start":579.907,"end":602.481,"text":"大概有1764億喔這個一半型補助喔 我們變成計劃型補助其中啊 這1764億裡面國教署就佔了813億國教署就佔掉一半了齁也就是說 未來啊未來我們縣市啊如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候我們都改成計劃型 都改成要申請那我請教一下 部長審核是誰在審核誰審核審核的機制是什麼給予的標準是什麼"},{"start":610.179,"end":628.611,"text":"各位報告剛剛那個計劃型他原來就存在著甚至減掉了一些嘛所以計劃型原來怎麼審我們也那樣審而且要簡化有些會簡化更從地方的角度看包含部長剛剛最近也在說希望同一份資料各個單位可以用不要每個單位都跟學校"},{"start":629.011,"end":654.375,"text":"跟縣市要資料好 減量嘛我希望你這個810多億的補助款你給我一個你到底所謂的簡化還有審核的標準是什麼第一個第二個能不能做到每年年底的時候把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的那給我一張表可以嗎哪個縣市哪幾個學校什麼樣的項目得到你們一般型的補助都可以做到嗎"},{"start":656.918,"end":680.309,"text":"一般性補助跟教育的計劃性補助這兩項一般性補助比較我們會採取涉算式的計劃大概像委員講的會有審查委員希望我們年底前給委員做這樣一個中整的說明報告我們會來進行 謝謝我跟你講署長這是為你好啊不要大家都覺得你有時候大小眼要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分要不然人家覺得有黑箱你不會嘛 對不對你絕對不會嘛"},{"start":683.044,"end":690.078,"text":"所以我給你一個機會啊就公開給大家看一下 好不好接下來呢我們再來談一下新武專計畫"},{"start":694.502,"end":713.798,"text":"這個新武專計劃我們114年開始試辦3加2這個是本席沒有記錯是葉秉成次長提出來的那在當時在委員會不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候我們經過非常充分的討論那這個計劃最後共有38所學校174班來申辦所以部長這個計劃好不好你覺得好還是不好 給我一個字就好基本上我覺得 我肯定他的價值"},{"start":722.307,"end":748.86,"text":"所以是好的對不對我也覺得計畫不錯所以我們才會支持運算但是我們看到現在的招生情況我舉一個最指標的學校台科大自動化工程專班那他跟我們都是很指標性的這個像台北市大安高工新竹高工台中高工這三所學校合作那原本我們預計要招收60人結果只招收到21人其中新竹高工還是掛零"},{"start":750.054,"end":756.851,"text":"成效不好啊本席也下去了解跟问过啊其实成效是不好的啊所以呢为什么成效这么差部长说明一下好吗"},{"start":760.479,"end":785.959,"text":"我补充说明因为这样的一个三加二的专班主要是提供技高学生有一个多元的选择背景不用再说了我们去年讨论很多了就以台科大这个案子来讲新竹高工的这一个班并没有办法人数来参加主要是新竹高工的学生大部分都是要升学所以他们对于先拿一个二专"},{"start":786.659,"end":808.035,"text":"的文凭学生是有疑虑的所以新竹高工的学生就不参加了市长谢谢部长您刚刚有听到市长的专业说明了这个其实也是那时候我们在审查预算的时候我们提出来的担忧结果它就是发生了它就发生了我们如此教育文化委员会如此支持你们的预算但你们交出来的成果我真的觉得"},{"start":809.296,"end":834.586,"text":"非常让大家看不下去那再来呢我想另外在招收学生不足的情况之下即便我们这个计划有补助给该校但是呢现在我了解到有很多要衔接的科大都担心他可能不付成本甚至会赔本搞不好就不想再做了请问一下如果在他招收不到学生的时候他可以擅自终止这样的计划吗"},{"start":837.372,"end":850.349,"text":"因為假如學生已經參加不可以這個我們會來跟學校做說明啦對 這個是不可以的那如果不可以 那課大又賠本那個市長你要怎麼處理我們來協助學校怎麼協助"},{"start":852.332,"end":881.531,"text":"我们有一些经费例如说我们的高教生跟计划所以你还拿别的计划来协助这个计划那个教学的开课的成本本来在相关计划都可以支我当然知道都可以支那个师长当然可以指引但是当初这次教育部提了一个新的计划你就应该在这个新的计划那委员会同意你的预算当中去把它做好来但显然没有还用别的计划来指引那当时我们所提醒你的一些问题现在都产生了所以我想"},{"start":882.472,"end":903.265,"text":"叶秉成次长提出这样的一个计划现在当然他不在这里了这个计划看起来出了很多问题了谁能够处理我希望这个接的新的次长还是司长们我就要把这个计划重新再审视一次好不好那利益良善但是如果只是浪费公帑那没有什么效果这我不能接受最后一点非常简单这照理一分钟就好"},{"start":904.245,"end":915.872,"text":"我們當時預算通過的時候也有在講我們要求要比照像以前12年國教一樣12年國教輔導團要去宣導大家才會知道但是呢看起來我們並沒有認真做到這件事"},{"start":919.825,"end":941.754,"text":"根文報告您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個所以我們從一四的一月在做核心講師的培訓針對新五專的這一個核心講師也都培訓完了那在實體的宣導部分高中以下的階段在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了"},{"start":942.774,"end":961.903,"text":"然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做計值宣導也把3加2加進來我們的計專階段我跟你說啦你講的那些啊我覺得不要說什麼我印了這個什麼手冊然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做你去看一下12年國家上路的時候全國在宣導那個強度是什麼輔導團的強度是什麼"},{"start":964.184,"end":985.644,"text":"我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人怎麼去做的去學一下 去比照一下新的政策出來不是當初代理的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了要不然就是敷衍一下那沒意思啦當初我們就講過了你一下5加0 2加3 1加4亂七八糟一大堆大家不撒撒就要去宣導你沒有認真做我覺得這樣子的政策啊真的很可惜喔"},{"start":986.044,"end":1013.813,"text":"所以呢會後我希望你提供給我們詳細的資料那如果還沒有做的我們趕快把它補上來否則我覺得我們今年的預算上面我們可能不會支持了好我補充一下今年在計專端會辦理62場次所以委員這個我們都已經有規劃市長因為我今天給你調資料你資料也是亂七八糟你們的人也是都不清不楚所以呢我拜託會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚因為本席覺得這個非常非常的重要可以嗎可以好謝謝"},{"start":1016.047,"end":1017.531,"text":"謝謝委員提醒也感謝委員知道 謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":522,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（11時2分）謝謝召委，我們有請部長、國教署署長、技職司司長，還有承接葉丙成次長業務的次長，以上。"],["主席：請部長和相關的次長、署長、司長就位，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：沒關係，大家也坐了很久，上來辛苦站一下，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：好。首先，我想先謝謝召委，召委今天給予大家非常充分的時間來討論我們大家最關心的各項教育議題，其實我今天也準備了很多的資料，但第一題我可能要先來呼應一下剛剛羅廷瑋委員所提到的。","在過去升格以後，我們的國立高中改隸這件事情其實在地方上已經有很多的討論，同意的意見、不同意的意見都非常的多。剛才我當然也特別提醒羅廷瑋委員，在臺中市升格改隸的時候，署長是當時的教育局局長，當時好像也頗支持的，但我覺得支持是一回事，我們走到現在為止，我覺得剛才羅廷瑋委員講得很好，也就是現在我們在地方上的各項補助都減少。如果今天國立高中變市立高中，地方還要去負擔市立高中，因為他得不到中央的關愛，真的不如把孩子送回來這個大家庭好了，部長怎麼看？你會繼續愛他們嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想各種計畫型怎麼樣去協助地方市立高中職的發展，當然教育部責無旁貸。"],["萬委員美玲：責無旁貸喔！因為畢竟孩子當年是自己的，現在雖然多一個縣市政府的父母在疼愛，但別忘了他是自己的孩子，否則我請教一下，臺南現在國立學校有改為市立了嗎？有還是沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：目前還是在討論中……"],["萬委員美玲：目前沒有，從以前到現在，他都不願意嘛！不願意的原因是什麼？四個字，財政負擔，就這樣子，對不對？所以臺南到現在都不願意，都還有這個考量。其他升格的直轄市，剛剛其實署長漏掉講我們桃園，我覺得我們現在就是要儘量給這些過去的國立高中現在的市立高中很多的支持，但我希望大家長（部長）別忘了，還有他們。","接下來我們來討論，這一次我們看到國教署整個的預算少了137.5億，115年教育部主管的預算是2,659億，如果再加上一般性補助款813億，總共是3,472億，較去年少了79億，其中我看到國教署就少了137.5億。署長，你的預算高達137.5億的減列，原因是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：有三個：第一個是2到6歲的部分；第二個是有些已經完工的，像當時青埔地區、竹北地區的8億；另外有一些是因為在財政負擔上有一些調節。以上補充。"],["萬委員美玲：第三個部分再說清楚。"],["彭署長富源：譬如在1.65的這個員額上，當時103年的這個政策已經過了11年，已經達成了，這個可能可以減編，當時的教師數相較於11年後的教師數，它已經提高了之後，已經不太需要那筆錢，並且那筆錢應該是原來地方政府早就有編的，時間已經走了11年。第二個是輔導人力的部分，地方已經增加了4,165億，相關的這個資源做一點調節。以上三點補充。"],["萬委員美玲：好，署長，本席比較能接受的是，你說我們過去有編列，因為現在工程完工了、都竣工了，我們當然就不需要再編，就會看到減列的數字在這上面。但您剛剛所說的，我們看到，其實教育部自己的簡報在第6頁的部分，這也是剛才署長提到的，補助國小教師員額編制至每班1.65師，我們已經完成了，不需要了，還有輔導人力，我們不需要了，這些不需要到底是誰告訴你已經不需要了？什麼叫做不需要？"],["彭署長富源：它不叫做不需要……"],["萬委員美玲：那叫做什麼？"],["彭署長富源：它是在那個時間已經完成了之後，因為地方財源也增加了，所以大家在分擔上……"],["萬委員美玲：地方財源增加，請教一下署長……"],["彭署長富源：大家在分擔上回到法律……"],["萬委員美玲：你怎麼知道地方財源增加了？"],["彭署長富源：委員，地方財源增加就是4,165億，以相關的縣市……"],["萬委員美玲：你說地方財源增加在哪裡？你告訴我，怎麼增加？你告訴我。"],["彭署長富源：像臺北市增加四百多億，桃園市增加295億。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我就以本席的桃園市來講，我們增加這兩百九十幾億，難道全部增加的就是指定在教育預算上嗎？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：我必須要講，今天可能又要這樣雞生蛋、蛋生雞講回來，我覺得中央跟地方就像本席昨天在總質詢講的一樣，中央政府跟地方政府不要對抗，要合作，對不對？財劃法有基本的利益在，就像之前賴清德在當市長的時候，他也是說財劃法要重新修法，是不是？重新修法為什麼？難道就是因為地方增加了，所以今天要砍，全部拿來砍教育的預算，這樣有對嗎？這樣有對嗎？部長，我請教你一下……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：我們剛才以上講到的，不管是高中以下學校的用電或是輔導人力的這些，部長，你應該知道每一個都是很重要，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：好，那你今天又要講依照財劃法，每個縣市都有增加預算，增加的預算地方政府也會設算，設算了以後就會想還要怎麼樣幫桃園市做更多重大建設、什麼地方還需要錢，結果你反而把教育的預算都給扣掉了。部長，你們有沒有捍衛自己的教育預算？今天是行政院要你減你就減嗎？部長，我請教你一個問題，你現在坐的椅子一張多少錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，這是立法院的……"],["萬委員美玲：我說你在教育部的，你的坐椅一張多少錢？"],["鄭部長英耀：我進來就是沿用舊的，我沒有買過任何椅子。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有買過，想不想換一張5萬塊的？"],["鄭部長英耀：不用。"],["萬委員美玲：不用，為什麼？"],["鄭部長英耀：因為我覺得只要有椅子可以坐，我主要是來做事情，跟委員一樣，希望一起為臺灣的教育打拚，我不是來做……"],["萬委員美玲：不是來享受的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是、是。"],["萬委員美玲：很棒！我就欣賞你，這一些話要告訴國防部。買個椅子，什麼一張5萬塊！喝瓶水，什麼水不能喝？一瓶水120！當然他有一些他的說法在，但我今天要講的是教育的預算永遠沒有浪費的問題，我們要投入大量教育的預算去栽培我們的孩子、去支持我們的老師。但你今天他讓你刪你就刪、他讓你減你就減，這樣怎麼會對？你要去支持、捍衛你自己的預算，不是今天行政院告訴你要刪哪裡，你就同意刪哪裡，這個本席不能接受，好不好？再來……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我跟委員一樣，我們就是中央跟地方一定都要來合作……"],["萬委員美玲：你要捍衛預算，如果你都不知道要去捍衛預算……"],["鄭部長英耀：就像0到6歲的部分原來編688億，我們中央還是一樣，國教署還編了600億……"],["萬委員美玲：部長，我們這樣提醒你，你要適當的、適時的、堅定的去捍衛你自己的預算，不是只有到了委員會才來跟我們這樣說、那樣說。你看，我們所有委員會的委員不分黨派，我們都很支持你的預算，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我的心情和態度跟委員是一致的。"],["萬委員美玲：但是你今天少了這個部分，你自己本來就應該要去爭取回來。"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：再來，我們看到這些計畫現在改成地方負擔，加總起來總共少了149.31億，對嗎？國教署。"],["彭署長富源：是的，當然也有新增的部分。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們往下看。剛才的資料是從國教署這邊來，從教育部這邊來，這邊也是，你這邊寫上來的減列是146.28億，為什麼一樣都是你送上來的資料，卻有149.31億跟146.28億的差別？相差三億多，這個數字為什麼？"],["劉處長嘉偉：跟委員報告，現在委員投影片放的「十三」，它是只有對地方政府的補助款。"],["萬委員美玲：我講的就是對地方政府的補助啊！"],["劉處長嘉偉：對，那上一張是整個國教署的預算。"],["萬委員美玲：是整個國教署。"],["劉處長嘉偉：就是補助和非補助的都有。"],["萬委員美玲：好，第一個，我覺得這個數字上面也不夠明確。第二個，哇！所以你所有的減列統統都是減列我們地方，全部都是減列地方嘛！我覺得這是不對的，今天我們的孩子、我們的老師，你不要再去分什麼中央、地方，你能夠做的你就應該都要做，所以我還是回到那句老話，其實你該要爭取的預算是應該要把它爭取下來的。","接下來我要再問到，因為昨天我在總質詢的時候也有提到財劃法，我們現在大概有一千七百多億吧！如果這個數字我沒有記錯的話，這個預算其實就是改成計畫型的補助，大概有1,764億，一般性補助變成計畫型補助。這1,764億裡面，國教署就占了813億，國教署就占掉一半，也就是說，未來我們縣市如果有需要國教署來幫忙的時候，我們都改成計畫型，都改成要申請，我請教一下部長，審核是誰在審核？誰審核？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們有……"],["萬委員美玲：審核的機制是什麼？給予的標準是什麼？"],["彭署長富源：跟委員報告，剛剛那個計畫型它原來就存在著，甚至減掉了一些，所以計畫型原來怎麼審，我們也那樣審，而且要簡化，有些會簡化，更從地方的角度看。包含部長最近也在說，希望同一份資料各個單位可以用，不要每個單位都跟學校、跟縣市要資料，大概這樣子。"],["萬委員美玲：減量嘛！是不是？好，我希望你這個八百一十多億的補助款，你給我你所謂的簡化，還有審核的標準是什麼，這是第一個。","第二個，能不能做到每年年底的時候，把今年一整年你到底是怎麼給的，給我們一張表，可以嗎？哪個縣市、哪幾個學校、什麼樣的項目得到你們一般性的補助，這可以做到嗎？"],["彭署長富源：包含一般性補助跟教育部的計畫型補助這兩項，一般性補助我們會採取設算式的，計畫型的大概像委員講的會有審查。委員希望我們年底前給委員做一個綜整的說明報告，我們會來進行，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：我跟你講，署長，這是為你好啊！不然大家都覺得你有時候大小眼，要不然人家覺得你有藍綠之分，對不對？要不然人家覺得有黑箱，你不會嘛！對不對？你絕對不會嘛！所以我給你一個機會，就公開給大家看一下，好不好？","接下來我們再來談一下新五專計畫，這個新五專計畫114年開始試辦，3加2，本席沒有記錯的話，這個是葉丙成次長提出來的。當時在委員會，不管是提出來這個政策的時候跟審查預算的時候，我們經過非常充分的討論，這個計畫最後共有38所學校174班來申辦，所以部長，這個計畫好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們看……"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得好還是不好？給我一個字就好。"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上我覺得我肯定它的價值。"],["萬委員美玲：所以是好的，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["萬委員美玲：我也覺得計畫不錯，所以我們才會支持預算。但是我們看到現在的招生情況，我舉一個最指標的學校──臺科大自動化工程專班，它跟一些指標性的學校，像臺北市的大安高工、新竹高工、臺中高工這3所學校合作，原本預計要招收60人，結果只招收到21人，其中新竹高工還是掛零，成效不好啊！本席也下去瞭解跟問過，其實成效是不好的，為什麼成效這麼差？部長說明一下好嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：委員，我補充說明。因為這樣一個3加2的專班，主要是提供技高學生有一個多元的選擇。"],["萬委員美玲：背景不用再說，我們去年討論很多了。"],["楊司長玉惠：就以臺科大這個案子來講，新竹高工的這一個班沒有辦法有人數來參加，主要是新竹高工的學生大部分都是要升學，對於先拿一個二專的文憑學生是有疑慮的，所以新竹高工的學生就不參加了。"],["萬委員美玲：好，司長謝謝。部長，您剛剛有聽到司長的專業說明了，這個其實也是那時候我們在審查預算所提出來的擔憂，結果它就是發生了啊！我們教育及文化委員會如此支持你們的預算，但你們交出來的成果，我真的覺得讓大家非常看不下去。","再來，在招收學生不足的情況之下，即便這個計畫有補助給該校，但是現在我瞭解到有很多要銜接的科大都擔心可能不敷成本，甚至會賠本，搞不好就不想再做了。請問一下，如果在它招收不到學生的時候，它可以擅自中止這樣的計畫嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：假如學生已經參加……"],["萬委員美玲：司長，可以嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：不可以。"],["萬委員美玲：不可以嘛！對不對？"],["楊司長玉惠：對，我們會跟學校說明，這個是不可以的，學生已經……"],["萬委員美玲：如果不可以，那科大又賠本，司長，你要怎麼處理？"],["楊司長玉惠：我們來協助學校，這個沒有問題。"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼協助？"],["楊司長玉惠：我們有一些經費，例如說高教深耕計畫的經費裡面……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你還要拿別的計畫來協助這個計畫？"],["楊司長玉惠：沒有，那個教學的、開課的成本，本來在相關計畫都可以支。我們114沒有編……"],["萬委員美玲：我當然知道都可以支。"],["楊司長玉惠：我們114沒有編。"],["萬委員美玲：司長，當然都可以支應，但是當初這是教育部提的一個新的計畫，你就應該在這個新的計畫當中，用委員會同意你的預算去把它做好，但顯然沒有，還要用別的計畫來支應，當時我們提醒你的一些問題現在都產生了。葉丙成次長提出這樣一個計畫，現在當然他不在這裡了，這個計畫看起來出很多問題了，誰能夠處理？我希望新接任的次長，還是司長們，我覺得要把這個計畫重新再審視一次，好不好？"],["楊司長玉惠：好，會。"],["萬委員美玲：立意良善，但是如果只是浪費公帑，沒有什麼效果，這個我不能接受。"],["楊司長玉惠：是。"],["萬委員美玲：最後一點，非常簡單，召委，1分鐘就好。當時預算通過的時候我們也有在講，要求要比照像以前的12年國教一樣，輔導團要去宣導12年國教，大家才會知道，但是看起來你們並沒有認真做到這件事。"],["楊司長玉惠：跟委員報告，您在上個會期就有提醒我們這一個，所以我們從114的1月在做核心講師的培訓，針對新五專的部分，核心講師也都培訓完了。在實體的宣導部分，高中以下的階段，在國中畢業生的適性入學宣導手冊也把它加進來了，然後在優質化的一個方案裡面去做技職宣導，也把3加2加進來。在我們的技專階段……"],["萬委員美玲：司長，我跟你說啦！你講的那一些，我覺得不要說你印了一個什麼手冊，然後在學校裡面講一下就叫做有做了，你去看一下12年國教要上路的時候，全國在宣導的那個強度是什麼？輔導團的強度是什麼？我們輔導團的成員又是哪一些人？怎麼去做的？去學一下，去比照一下。","新的政策出來，不是當初帶領的人今天不在了以後你就不要做了，要不然就是敷衍一下，那沒意思啦！當初我們就講過了，你一下5加0、2加3、1加4，亂七八糟一大堆，大家「霧煞煞」，叫你去宣導你沒有認真做，我覺得這樣子的政策真的很可惜，所以會後我希望你提供我們詳細的資料，如果還沒有做的你們趕快把它補上來，否則我覺得在今年的預算上面，我們可能不會支持了。"],["楊司長玉惠：我補充一下，今年在技專端會辦理62場次，所以這個我們都已經有規劃進來。"],["萬委員美玲：司長，我今天跟你調資料，你的資料也是亂七八糟，你們的人也是都不清不楚，所以我拜託，會後請你到我辦公室把它說明清楚，因為本席覺得這個非常非常地重要，可以嗎？"],["楊司長玉惠：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，也感謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，行政官員請回座。","我們現在休息10分鐘，等一下在11點30分之前大家入座，謝謝。","休息（11時19分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：我們繼續質詢，現在請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-22-3","speakers":["劉書彬","柯志恩","吳沛憶","范雲","林沛祥","葛如鈞","葉元之","羅廷瑋","萬美玲","郭昱晴","謝龍介","陳秀寳","陳瑩","林宜瑾","賴惠員","徐欣瑩","陳培瑜","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐富癸","邱志偉","楊瓊瓔","張雅琳","林月琴","洪孟楷","林德福","高金素梅","翁曉玲"],"page_start":175,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長鄭英耀列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00005"}}}