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\"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 699.336, \"end\": 699.356, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"爭\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,750 --> 00:00:26,612\n謝謝主席我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來局長請好謝謝主席徐維華局長好我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量\n\n2\n00:00:27,593 --> 00:00:43,032\n像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害\n\n3\n00:00:43,573 --> 00:01:09,202\n那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息\n\n4\n00:01:09,622 --> 00:01:13,865\n因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判\n\n5\n00:01:35,222 --> 00:01:57,387\n那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊\n\n6\n00:01:58,007 --> 00:02:22,826\n好謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊那有沒有具體的嘛對所以有有沒有具體的案例啊\n\n7\n00:02:25,228 --> 00:02:54,628\n有這個案例非常的多我知道我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例\n\n8\n00:02:55,608 --> 00:03:15,302\n非常多啊不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬\n\n9\n00:03:22,066 --> 00:03:32,674\n真言說瞎話你在哽咽什麼啦你在哭什麼哭沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌沒出息那您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的\n\n10\n00:03:46,071 --> 00:04:08,580\n大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢\n\n11\n00:04:14,602 --> 00:04:39,749\n我跟委員說明一下喔這有兩個層面喔第一個我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化這是一個部分第二個個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共\n\n12\n00:04:40,469 --> 00:04:56,748\n中共他有做一個假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息然後來統戰台灣然後呢那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查\n\n13\n00:04:57,588 --> 00:05:15,198\n那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染\n\n14\n00:05:15,698 --> 00:05:43,199\n那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來\n\n15\n00:05:44,795 --> 00:06:05,502\n我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查\n\n16\n00:06:08,516 --> 00:06:37,697\n委員提到的是政黨的選舉不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢\n\n17\n00:06:38,337 --> 00:07:03,707\n你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了\n\n18\n00:07:04,667 --> 00:07:21,787\n所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎\n\n19\n00:07:23,271 --> 00:07:49,254\n第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題\n\n20\n00:07:50,635 --> 00:08:08,809\n不是啊那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀這個是統戰哎呀這個是這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候那請問一下那\n\n21\n00:08:18,456 --> 00:08:36,522\n我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是\n\n22\n00:08:37,862 --> 00:08:39,083\n大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了\n\n23\n00:08:53,839 --> 00:09:10,071\n現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135136138140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢\n\n24\n00:09:17,917 --> 00:09:24,386\n員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了\n\n25\n00:09:33,519 --> 00:09:50,105\n那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎\n\n26\n00:09:51,665 --> 00:10:00,072\n請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好\n\n27\n00:10:19,187 --> 00:10:40,024\n就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話\n\n28\n00:10:43,126 --> 00:10:56,926\n我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點\n\n29\n00:10:58,408 --> 00:11:23,570\n當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾\n\n30\n00:11:24,491 --> 00:11:39,356\n不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n750\t26612\t謝謝主席 我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 徐維華局長好 我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量\n27593\t43032\t像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害\n43573\t69202\t那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息\n69622\t73865\t因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判\n95222\t117387\t那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊\n118007\t142826\t好 謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊 那有沒有具體的嘛對 所以有 有沒有具體的案例啊\n145228\t174628\t有 這個案例非常的多我知道 我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例\n175608\t195302\t非常多啊 不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬\n202066\t212674\t真言說瞎話 你在哽咽什麼啦 你在哭什麼哭 沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說 這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽 因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌 沒出息那 您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的\n226071\t248580\t大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢\n254602\t279749\t我跟委員說明一下喔 這有兩個層面喔第一個 我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化 這是一個部分第二個 個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共\n280469\t296748\t中共他有做一個 假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息 然後來統戰台灣然後呢 那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查\n297588\t315198\t那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染\n315698\t343199\t那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來\n344795\t365502\t我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查\n368516\t397697\t委員提到的是政黨的選舉 不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢\n398337\t423707\t你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了\n424667\t441787\t所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎\n443271\t469254\t第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題\n470635\t488809\t不是啊 那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢 那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀 這個是統戰哎呀 這個是 這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候 那請問一下那\n498456\t516522\t我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是\n517862\t519083\t大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了\n533839\t550071\t現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135 136 138 140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢\n557917\t564386\t員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了\n573519\t590105\t那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎\n591665\t600072\t請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好\n619187\t640024\t就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話\n643126\t656926\t我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點\n658408\t683570\t當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊 我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾\n684491\t699356\t不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 徐維華局長好 我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量\n像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害\n那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息\n因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判\n那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊\n好 謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊 那有沒有具體的嘛對 所以有 有沒有具體的案例啊\n有 這個案例非常的多我知道 我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例\n非常多啊 不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬\n真言說瞎話 你在哽咽什麼啦 你在哭什麼哭 沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說 這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽 因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌 沒出息那 您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的\n大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢\n我跟委員說明一下喔 這有兩個層面喔第一個 我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化 這是一個部分第二個 個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共\n中共他有做一個 假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息 然後來統戰台灣然後呢 那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查\n那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染\n那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來\n我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查\n委員提到的是政黨的選舉 不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢\n你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了\n所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎\n第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題\n不是啊 那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢 那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀 這個是統戰哎呀 這個是 這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候 那請問一下那\n我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是\n大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了\n現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135 136 138 140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢\n員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了\n那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎\n請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好\n就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話\n我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點\n當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊 我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾\n不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.750 --> 00:26.612\n謝謝主席我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來局長請好謝謝主席徐維華局長好我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量\n\n00:27.593 --> 00:43.032\n像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害\n\n00:43.573 --> 01:09.202\n那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息\n\n01:09.622 --> 01:13.865\n因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判\n\n01:35.222 --> 01:57.387\n那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊\n\n01:58.007 --> 02:22.826\n好謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊那有沒有具體的嘛對所以有有沒有具體的案例啊\n\n02:25.228 --> 02:54.628\n有這個案例非常的多我知道我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例\n\n02:55.608 --> 03:15.302\n非常多啊不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬\n\n03:22.066 --> 03:32.674\n真言說瞎話你在哽咽什麼啦你在哭什麼哭沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌沒出息那您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的\n\n03:46.071 --> 04:08.580\n大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢\n\n04:14.602 --> 04:39.749\n我跟委員說明一下喔這有兩個層面喔第一個我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化這是一個部分第二個個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共\n\n04:40.469 --> 04:56.748\n中共他有做一個假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息然後來統戰台灣然後呢那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查\n\n04:57.588 --> 05:15.198\n那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染\n\n05:15.698 --> 05:43.199\n那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來\n\n05:44.795 --> 06:05.502\n我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查\n\n06:08.516 --> 06:37.697\n委員提到的是政黨的選舉不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢\n\n06:38.337 --> 07:03.707\n你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了\n\n07:04.667 --> 07:21.787\n所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎\n\n07:23.271 --> 07:49.254\n第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題\n\n07:50.635 --> 08:08.809\n不是啊那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀這個是統戰哎呀這個是這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候那請問一下那\n\n08:18.456 --> 08:36.522\n我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是\n\n08:37.862 --> 08:39.083\n大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了\n\n08:53.839 --> 09:10.071\n現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135136138140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢\n\n09:17.917 --> 09:24.386\n員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了\n\n09:33.519 --> 09:50.105\n那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎\n\n09:51.665 --> 10:00.072\n請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好\n\n10:19.187 --> 10:40.024\n就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話\n\n10:43.126 --> 10:56.926\n我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點\n\n10:58.408 --> 11:23.570\n當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾\n\n11:24.491 --> 11:39.356\n不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.75,"end":26.612,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請蔡明彥蔡局長來 局長請好 謝謝主席 徐維華局長好 我們在今天您提供的這個工作報告裡面的第13頁那您這邊有提到有關於中共利用新興技術搗亂我國的這個輿論場域的部分那您也提出了這個相關的數量"},{"start":27.593,"end":43.032,"text":"像是去年的選舉之前政府也有成立一個全國重大假訊息的案件處理中心後面有一些是在選舉案件後續沒有結果或是選後才定調的也會造成許多的候選人不小的傷害"},{"start":43.573,"end":69.202,"text":"那並且呢假消息跟是否是中共操控輿論戰或者是境外勢力的介入不是同一件事情那請問既然你們已經所謂徵搜到這麼多的話我們一般民眾要如何界定這一些訊息到底是來自於境外或是中共或是說是從哪裡而來還是台灣自己可能民眾誤傳的消息"},{"start":69.622,"end":73.865,"text":"因為這其中有非常大的差異如果只是單純的寫說我們呢這個中共藉由什麼網路水軍然後媒體多層次途徑啊對台散播這個等等攻擊政府啊然後等等以美相關資訊加劇我內部對立那有一些是我們台灣的民眾認為政府做得不好或者是認為對於美國有一些批判"},{"start":95.222,"end":117.387,"text":"那他不能把他算在所謂的境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作嘛這兩者之間還是有分別的那你們有沒有任何的途徑或是管道能夠來公開的告訴大家說哪一些才是所謂你們認為的境外勢力或是中共的擾亂否則所謂加劇我內部對立的那變成是我們自己啊"},{"start":118.007,"end":142.826,"text":"好 謝謝委員提到這個問題啦那事實上對於境外勢力的這些正義訊息的散佈那我們有一個查找的系統那我們講的所謂的有問題的這些異常帳號大部分都是在中共的這種運作網路當中那會去傳散中共所傳佈的資訊而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有它比較日常的一些資訊對啊 那有沒有具體的嘛對 所以有 有沒有具體的案例啊"},{"start":145.228,"end":174.628,"text":"有 這個案例非常的多我知道 我說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例這是為什麼我們在今年的年初有特別公佈一份公開版的報告國安局第一次公佈公開版的報告來說明中共的相關證訊殘破不足我說你現在拿一個案例告訴我說你們國安局調查哪一個是曾經是中共的這個擾亂台灣的相關的案例有關於所謂的你剛剛說的網路水軍跟媒體的層次途徑的這個部分的具體案例"},{"start":175.608,"end":195.302,"text":"非常多啊 不我請你提出一個嘛你跟我講非常多我現在請你提出一個案例那今天這麼多的媒體也在現場然後我們也都是直播出去的那你提供一個案例有很難嗎來我接下來先問你不要跟我講非常多因為呢像現在很多AI嘛或者是說很多網路使用嘛比方說齁我相信局長應該有聽過本應該匆匆忙忙游刃有餘現在是匆匆忙忙連滾帶爬"},{"start":202.066,"end":212.674,"text":"真言說瞎話 你在哽咽什麼啦 你在哭什麼哭 沒出息我們就有立法委員認為說 這樣子的一個歌曲不要聽 因為這是中共設計用來統戰的我請問一下局長這首歌 沒出息那 您認為它是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎你們國安局的查核是如何的"},{"start":226.071,"end":248.58,"text":"大概還是要看到他的一個內容還有他傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎還有他的傳散的狀況你沒看過嗎我大概看過那你沒有看過他的傳散狀況嗎從哪些平台是誰在傳播然後呢有哪些人看過了然後歌曲內容是什麼沒看過嗎國安局沒有做過調查嗎都有立法委員王逸川委員說不可以聽因為這是中共用來設計統戰的了已經有立委公開說這是統戰那國安局的調查是如何呢"},{"start":254.602,"end":279.749,"text":"我跟委員說明一下喔 這有兩個層面喔第一個 我們會做比較總體性的相關的一個傳散它相關的一個數字的變化 這是一個部分第二個 個案國安局會介入來針對每一個個案來進行查查的話一定是要拉高到國安的層級一般政治人物之間彼此的可能這些影音的攻防我們不會去涉入這跟影音攻防有什麼關係啊我們一般會涉入的話所以如果今天中共"},{"start":280.469,"end":296.748,"text":"中共他有做一個 假設像王逸川委員所說的中共做了一個歌曲或者是一個訊息 然後來統戰台灣然後呢 那國安局認為這個也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係國安局也不需要介入調查"},{"start":297.588,"end":315.198,"text":"那請問一下為什麼你們在第13頁裡面你們就講說中共藉由一場粉專以知名電影或動畫素材用AI技術做二次創作產生迷因式的影音對於台美關稅談判啊然後罷免投票人員政策等等的資訊呢然後呢去擴大輿論的渲染"},{"start":315.698,"end":343.199,"text":"那請問一下這個就是類似的情況啊那你們要說明清楚所謂的徵訊的部分假如涉及到國安層級的話它大概有幾個部分一個部分是涉及到對元首的污衊第二部分涉及到我們對外重要關係的發展第三個部分在國家重大地採取大免投票的部分或對元首的採取或國家重要的選舉期間這些徵訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災我們國安局會介入好所以呢我們可以看到二創的部分來"},{"start":344.795,"end":365.502,"text":"我們看一下這個是本來國民黨所做的一個CF然後後面呢就有其他的網友他們也做了相關的二創那請問一下你們在談到運用AI技術時做罷免投票的議題申詢的時候呢那算不算是你所說的中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域就你們的調查"},{"start":368.516,"end":397.697,"text":"委員提到的是政黨的選舉 不是就對啊選舉罷免期間嘛公投期間嘛那有一個國民黨所做的正版的然後後面很多的網友他也做了二創的那請問像這樣子的一個做法民眾的二創會被國安局拿去檢查或是偵辦是否是AI或是中共利用新興技術的擾亂然後對於這樣子的一個內容你們是否查核呢"},{"start":398.337,"end":423.707,"text":"你們認為是嗎看狀況要看相關的狀況你們每個都看狀況那人家都有立法委員公開檢舉說沒出席這首歌是中共統戰了那你們看起來你們也不在意啊一般的檢舉你只要是走相關的一個刑事案件的一個提告的話那就走司法系統我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大的影響才會有國安局來介入統戰不是國安的重大影響要看他的一個案情我剛經國安委員說明過了"},{"start":424.667,"end":441.787,"text":"所以嘛我剛問說王逸川委員說沒出息這首歌是中共設計來統戰的如果真的是這樣的話那很危險現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲呢那所有的人都在傳唱它不就是一種很大力的這個統戰嗎如果真的像王逸川委員所說的這麼嚴重國安局部應該有反應嗎"},{"start":443.271,"end":469.254,"text":"第一個是行為者行為者是假如是中共傳散的這是一個部分那是不是嗎你們是研究沒有啊第二個是他傳散的內容我剛剛跟委員所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題假如證訊的內容是涉及到國安層次的援手所以你認為作災或是相關的重大疫情會影響的所以你認為沒出席這首歌沒有問題嗎太多了太多了所以沒有關係我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題"},{"start":470.635,"end":488.809,"text":"不是啊 那所以我的意思是說這首歌那你就覺得說國安局不需要去做任何的調查不需要去做任何的研究因為沒有涉入到總統跟選舉所以呢 那跟統不統戰也沒有關係是這個意思吧好他沒有檢舉提告嘛就是每一個人他都可以公開講說哎呀 這個是統戰哎呀 這個是 這個是什麼樣的這個情況每個人都可以講啊那大家都在講的時候 那請問一下那"},{"start":498.456,"end":516.522,"text":"我就問嘛每一個人都在講說這是統戰那國安局對於統戰那哪些是哪些不是那如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話那請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢最後加深內部對立的人是誰就是我們國人跟國人之間啊那主席再借我一分鐘我要問一下警政署因為這個是"},{"start":517.862,"end":519.083,"text":"大家相當關注的問題齁我簡單問就好了那高雄呢日前發生一個警民的糾紛就是有一個民眾他在鳥松區跟這個啊這個拍攝齁這個總統的車隊經過那結果呢我們有看到影片了"},{"start":533.839,"end":550.071,"text":"現場員警制止說是違法然後呢影片曝光引起輿論爭議他說呢這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界線引發了一個爭論那這個員警就說呢執行公務按照法條他列出了刑法135 136 138 140跟141說你在妨礙社會秩序拍攝者說呢他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊的時候呢"},{"start":557.917,"end":564.386,"text":"員警說因為他們在執行特種任務拍特種情務就是違法那拍攝者說所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎員警說對然後呢後面拍攝者說哪一條法規不能拍那自此呢對話就被中斷了"},{"start":573.519,"end":590.105,"text":"那我想請問一下現在在台灣拍攝元首的車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重就是有違反刑法123455條然後是因為維安勤務的關係未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候是不能拍攝的是嗎"},{"start":591.665,"end":600.072,"text":"請摘要回答請摘要回答就好那我想這個也不是不見得是是這樣的狀況那總統維安這個是道路警衛是負責這個沿途的這個安全那對於原警針對這個個案我們也會去做一個瞭解那原則上就是總統的維安是一定要保障到安全當然嘛我是問的是拍攝嘛所以請您喔因為時間有限的關係請您們確定好"},{"start":619.187,"end":640.024,"text":"就是民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝到底是不是國安問題能不能夠拍攝這件事情必須要做一個說明跟釐清局長想回答我來跟委員說明一下因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點假如我們的安危對象他的行徑的動線有可能出現經滋擾的狀況的話"},{"start":643.126,"end":656.926,"text":"我們特勤維安人員是可以來進行交通的管制以及人員的查核還有他的攜帶物件的查核因為跟我們說明一下在車隊行進或是維安對向上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點"},{"start":658.408,"end":683.57,"text":"當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候我同意啊 我只是說齁你們要講清楚你們要講清楚說因為過去沒有發生這樣子的案例嘛過去一般總統車隊我也拍過很多人都拍過啊上下車遠遠的拍很多人都拍過很多人他只是覺得說這個車隊第一次看到他拿手機就拍了那如果現在這樣子的行為你們認為不行的話要明確的告知社會大眾"},{"start":684.491,"end":699.356,"text":"不然每次大家拿手機出來拍然後都有人講說你現在已經違法了大家都會覺得奇怪啊那我只是拍一個車隊而已我怎麼就違法了呢所以你剛剛講的如果你們現在認定說我們的安全途徑是現在民眾看到總統的車隊來了拿手機拍攝是會有您剛剛提出的這樣的問題請清楚的向民眾做出說明避免未來再有爭議謝謝"}]}}},"gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時10分）謝謝主席，我們請蔡明彥蔡局長。"],["主席：局長請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：局長好。您在今天的書面報告第13頁提到中共利用新興技術擾亂我國輿論場域，並列出相關的數量。去年選舉之前，政府有成立一個「全國性重大假訊息案件處理中心」，有些案件後續沒有結果，也有的是選後才定調，這對許多候選人也造成不小的傷害。","假消息跟是否為中共操控輿論戰或境外勢力介入並不是同一件事情，請問局長，既然你們已經偵蒐到這麼多案件，一般民眾要如何界定這些訊息到底從何而來？是來自境外、中共，還是臺灣自己，可能民眾誤傳的消息？因為這當中有非常大的差異，如果說中共藉由網路水軍與融媒體等多層次途徑，對臺散播攻訐政府及疑美等相關爭訊，謀加劇我內部對立，這還比較單純，但也有一些是我們臺灣的民眾認為政府做得不好，或者是對美國有一些批判，這就不能把它算在所謂境外勢力或是中共的輿論操作，這兩者之間還是有分別的。請問你們有沒有任何途徑或管道能夠公開告訴大家，哪些才是你們認為的境外勢力或中共的擾亂？否則所謂「加劇我內部對立」，就變成是我們自己。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提到這個問題，事實上對於境外勢力爭議訊息的散布，我們有一個查找的系統，我們講所謂有問題的異常帳號，大部分都是在中共的運作網絡當中傳散中共所傳布的資訊，而且這些異常帳號常常都沒有比較日常的一些資訊。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們有沒有具體的案例？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個案例非常多。"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，我是說你今天能不能提出一個具體的案例？"],["蔡局長明彥：這也是為什麼我們在今年年初有特別公布一份公開版的報告，國安局第一次公布公開版的報告來說明中共相關爭訊的傳播手法。"],["徐委員巧芯：我現在問你嘛！你現在拿一個案例告訴我說，你們國安局調查到哪一個是中共曾經擾亂臺灣的相關案例嘛！有關你剛剛說的網路水軍與融媒體等多層次途徑的具體案例。"],["蔡局長明彥：非常多啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：請你提出一個嘛！你跟我講「非常多」，我現在就請你提出一個案例。今天這麼多媒體在現場，會議過程也是直播的，你提供一個案例有很難嗎？","我接下來先問你，你不要跟我講「非常多」！因為現在很多使用AI或者是透過網路，比方說我相信局長應該有聽過「本應該從從容容、游刃有餘，現在是匆匆忙忙、連滾帶爬，睜眼說瞎話！你在哽咽什麼啦？你在哭什麼哭？沒出息！」這首歌曲。可是我們就有立法委員認為這樣子的歌曲不要聽，因為這是中共設計用來統戰的。請問局長，您認為「沒出息」這首歌是中共設計用來統戰的內容嗎？你們國安局的查核是如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：還是要看到它的內容和傳散的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒看過嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我大概看過。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你沒看過它的傳散狀況嗎？透過哪些平臺？是誰在傳播？有哪些人看過了？歌曲內容是什麼？沒看過嗎？國安局沒有做過調查嗎？連立法委員王義川都說不可以聽，因為這是中共設計用來統戰的，已經有立委公開說這是統戰，那麼國安局的調查是如何呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明一下，這有兩個層面，第一個，我們會做出比較總體性的、相關的傳散數字，這是第一個部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問這個個案嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個是個案，國安局會介入來針對每一個個案進行查察的話，一定是要拉高到國安的層級，一般政治人物之間彼此可能是影音的攻防，我們不會去涉入。"],["徐委員巧芯：這跟影音攻防有什麼關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一般會涉入的話，大部分都是涉及……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果今天中共有做一個……假設像王義川委員所說的，中共做了一首歌曲或者是一個訊息要來統戰臺灣，你認為這也是屬於政治人物跟政治人物之間的關係，國安局不需要介入調查嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有分類。"],["徐委員巧芯：那請問為什麼你們在書面報告第13頁會說「中共尤藉異常粉專，以知名電影或動畫為素材，運用AI技術『二次創作』產製『迷因式』影音，操作『臺美關稅談判』、『漢光演習』、『罷免投票』及『能源政策』等議題爭訊，並利用異常帳號於我輿論場域擴大渲染……」？這就是類似的情況啊！那你們……"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有、沒有，我要說明清楚，所謂「爭訊」的部分，假如涉及國安層級的話，它大概有幾個部分，一個部分是涉及對元首的誣衊，第二部分是涉及我們對外重要關係的發展，第三個部分是在國家重大災情或……"],["徐委員巧芯：罷免投票的部分會對元首有什麼樣的誣衊？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家重大災情或國家重要選舉期間，這些爭訊可能影響到選舉或影響到救災，我們國安局會介入。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，有關「二創」（二次創作）的部分，本席現在出示的本來是國民黨所做的一個CF，之後就有其他網友做了相關的二創。請問你們談到運用AI技術，操作罷免議題爭訊的時候，這算不算是你所說的，中共利用新興技術擾亂我輿論場域？就你們的調查。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員提到的是政黨的選舉……"],["徐委員巧芯：就是罷免期間、公投期間，有一個國民黨所做的正版CF，後面很多網友也做了二創的，請問像這樣的民眾二創會被國安局拿去檢查或偵辦是否為AI或中共利用新興技術的擾亂嗎？對於這樣的內容，你們是不是有查核呢？你們認為是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：看狀況，要看相關的狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們每個都看狀況？那人家立法委員都公開檢舉說「沒出息」這首歌是中共統戰了，你們看起來也不在意啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：一般的檢舉如果是走刑事案件提告的話，那就是走司法系統，我們國安局出面的是因為國安的重大影響，才會由國安局來……"],["徐委員巧芯：統戰不是國安的重大影響？"],["蔡局長明彥：要看它的案情。我剛剛已經跟委員說明過了，要看狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以嘛！我剛剛講，王義川委員說「沒出息」這首歌是中共設計來統戰的，如果真的是這樣的話，那很危險！現在多少人都在傳唱這首歌曲，所有人都在傳唱，它不就是一種很大力的統戰嗎？如果真的像王義川委員所說的這麼嚴重，國安局不應該有反應嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：第一個是行為者，假如是中共傳散的，這是一個部分；第二個……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是不是嘛！你們去研究了沒有？"],["蔡局長明彥：第二個是它傳散的內容，我剛剛跟委員說明……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你認為傳散內容沒有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：假如爭訊的內容是涉及國安層次的元首、對外關係、救災或是相關的重大疫情，會影響的，我們才會來處理，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你認為「沒出息」這首歌沒有問題？"],["蔡局長明彥：媒體上的這種個案太多了！我們國安局……"],["徐委員巧芯：太多了？所以沒有關係？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們國安局的能量會聚焦在國安議題。謝謝。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你覺得這首歌國安局不需要去做任何調查、不需要去做任何研究，因為沒有涉及總統跟選舉，跟統不統戰也沒有關係，是這個意思吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：既然當事人已經檢舉提告了，那就由司法去處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：他沒有檢舉提告嘛！就是每個人都可以公開講說這個是統戰、這個是什麼樣的情況，每個人都可以講啊！當大家都在講的時候，我就問嘛，每個人都在講這是統戰，那國安局對於統戰認為哪些是、哪些不是，如果你們都沒有辦法自己界定的話，請問其他人要怎麼樣去遵循呢？最後加深內部對立的人是誰？就是我們國人跟國人之間啊！","請主席再給我1分鐘，我要問一下警政署，因為這是大家相當關注的問題。我簡單問就好了。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：高雄日前發生一起警民糾紛，有一個民眾在鳥松區拍攝總統車隊經過，我們看到影片了，他被現場員警制止，說是違法，然後影片曝光，引起輿論爭議，說這個是維安勤務跟拍攝自由的界限所引發出來的爭論。員警說他執行公務是按照法條規定，並列出刑法第一百三十五條、第一百三十六條、第一百三十八條、第一百四十條及一百四十一條，認為拍攝者妨礙社會秩序；拍攝者說他只是站在路邊拍總統的車隊，而員警說因為他們在執行特種勤務，拍特種勤務就是違法；拍攝者就問所以拍特勤車隊有違法嗎？員警說對。然後拍攝者就問，哪一條法規規定不能拍？對話至此就被中斷了。本席想請問一下，現在在臺灣拍攝元首車隊經過這件事情已經是這麼嚴重，因為維安勤務的關係，就是會違反刑法這五個條文，未來我國的民眾看到總統車隊經過的時候，是不能拍攝的，是嗎？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["徐委員巧芯：請摘要回答就好。"],["張署長榮興：我想這個也不見得是這樣的狀況，對於總統的維安，道路警衛是負責沿途的安全；針對這個個案，我們會去了解，原則上總統的維安是一定要保障總統的安全……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然嘛！我問的是拍攝，因為時間有限，請你們確定好，民眾在總統車隊經過的時候拍攝，到底是不是國安問題？能不能夠拍攝？這件事情必須要說明跟釐清。"],["主席：局長要回答嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：局長想回答？"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明一下，因為這是依照我們的特勤條例施行細則跟特勤條例的作業要點，假如我們安維的對象，其行進的動線有可能出現滋擾狀況的話，我們特勤維安人員可以來進行交通管制，以及人員的查核，還有他所攜帶物件的查核。跟委員說明一下，車隊行進或是維安對象上下車是最容易發生事情的一個時間點，當年雷根總統就在上下車的時候遇襲……"],["徐委員巧芯：我同意，我只是說你們要講清楚……"],["蔡局長明彥：在執勤過程中……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，你們要講清楚，因為過去沒有發生這樣的案例，過去一般總統車隊經過，我拍過，很多人也拍過，上下車，遠遠的拍，很多人都拍過。很多人第一次看到這個車隊，就拿手機拍了！如果你們現在認為這樣的行為不行的話，就要明確的告知社會大眾，不然每次大家拿手機出來拍，然後就有人說你現在已經違法了，大家會覺得奇怪啊，我只是拍個車隊，怎麼就違法了呢？所以你剛剛講的，如果你們認為，民眾現在看到總統的車隊來了，拿手機拍攝，會有您剛剛提出的這個問題，請清楚地向民眾做出說明，避免未來再有爭議。謝謝！"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：你的意思完整表達了，請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是王鴻薇委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":102,"meet_id":"委員會-11-4-35-4","speakers":["王定宇","陳俊宇","陳永康","羅美玲","沈伯洋","馬文君","陳冠廷","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王鴻薇","吳宗憲","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2025-10-15"],"gazette_id":"1148302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1148302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第4會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1148302_00003"}}}